How to Deal With a Shark (and Other Wildlife Lessons), with Pippa Ehrlich

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Outside Podcast
Host: Patty O'Connell (Patty O)
Episode: How to Deal With a Shark (and Other Wildlife Lessons), with Pippa Ehrlich
Date: July 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Patty O'Connell and Pippa Ehrlich, filmmaker, diver, and co-director of the Oscar-winning documentary My Octopus Teacher. Delving into Ehrlich's transformative relationship with the ocean and its creatures, the episode explores the powerful sense of connection she feels underwater, lessons from wildlife encounters (including a memorable one with a shark), and the interplay of empathy, science, and storytelling in wildlife conservation. The discussion also covers anthropomorphism, the value of firsthand immersion in nature, and practical tips for wildlife encounters.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Early Encounters & Humbling Moments

• Pippa's Homecoming and the Humbling Baboon (05:54–10:13)
  • After the fame from My Octopus Teacher and the Oscars, Pippa sought solitude in a remote South African cottage. Instead, she was repeatedly outwitted by a clever, radio-collared baboon who broke in, stole her phone, and even the tracking device meant for him.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “Actually what I found was a giant male baboon. And he made it his mission to humble me over the next few weeks…he had this thing where he’d go to the fridge, help himself to whatever he could carry and then he’d go and sit in the bathtub and eat everything he liked and then go back to the fridge.” (07:35, Pippa)
  • Lesson: Even as someone deeply versed in wild spaces, remote solitude brought its own challenges. Pippa realized she wasn’t ready to live that remotely—sometimes, civilization's inconveniences are preferable to those of the wild.

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Connection to Water: Origins and Discovery

• Growing up in Johannesburg, Finding the Ocean (10:32–13:54)

  • Despite an urban childhood, family trips to the beach and a love for being immersed in water led to Pippa’s lifelong connection with the ocean.
  • Diving began in university—first scuba, later freediving.
  • “There’s something about being surrounded by water. It’s just like this amniotic, immersive experience that I find very calming and freeing.” (11:14, Pippa)

• Scuba vs. Free Diving: The Attraction (13:54–16:48)

  • Freediving, with minimal gear, offers a mind-body experience and an intense feeling of presence.
  • Memorable Quote:
    “Underwater, I start to channel my inner superhero. That’s where I find my grace.” (11:51, Pippa)
  • The rhythm of freediving—going up for air, slowing down, becoming "another marine mammal"—fuels connection and self-trust.

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Marvels of the Kelp Forest (21:46–25:45)

• Kelp forests, covering 30% of coastlines, are “underwater jungles,” rich with color, light, and thousands of species.
  • “You go into a kelp forest and it looks like there’s just this kind of brown stringy stuff floating on the surface…but you swim down and suddenly you realize you are in this totally three dimensional underwater jungle. There are fish flying down like birds from the canopy…light is always beautiful…It’s just like this pastel underwater painting.” (21:58, Pippa)
• Kelp forests are rapidly disappearing worldwide due to ocean warming and ecological imbalances—akin to underwater versions of rainforest deforestation.

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Feeling at Home Underwater (27:11–28:31)

• Pippa feels a sense of homecoming in the water, not foreignness.
  • Many marine creatures have no evolutionary reason to fear humans, so encounters are marked by curiosity, not suspicion.
  • “We meet each other on equal terms underwater…they can actually approach you with just like total curiosity.” (27:52, Pippa)
  • This is contrasted with terrestrial wildlife, which tends to be wary due to historical contact.

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The Shark Encounter — Lessons in Wildlife Behavior (28:53–32:23)

• The Mozambique Bull Shark Story (29:10–31:19)
  • During a dive, Pippa found herself alone as a bull shark approached her through a bait ball. Remembering advice, she blew bubbles out of her snorkel, startling the shark and causing it to flee.
  • “I almost saw the surprise on his face. It, like, got a fright, kind of jerked up really and went flying away…they’re not nearly as scary as we’ve been told. That gave me a lot of confidence.” (31:05, Pippa)
  • On predator psychology: Large predators like sharks are cautious survivors—they exist because they’re careful, not reckless hunters.

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Anthropomorphism vs. Emotional Engagement (32:23–37:29)

• Defining the Balance:
  • Pippa distinguishes between projecting human emotions onto animals (true anthropomorphism) and recognizing that animals have emotions, instincts, and personalities.
  • “To say this fish was curious about me—no, that’s something we can relate to as humans, but we’re not projecting something onto that fish because it’s very, very likely that it was curious.” (33:08, Pippa)
• On Pangolins and Individuality:
  • Even among the same species (pangolins, in her film), individuals demonstrate unique personalities.
  • “Every single one of those animals had different personalities. The first pangolin I went for a walk with…he just loved to be cuddled, this pangolin…Kulu, on the other hand, was just, like, super independent. Not very friendly at all. He didn’t like being babied.” (36:41, Pippa)

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The Power and Limits of Human-Animal Bonding (37:44–40:26)

• It’s natural to relate to animals using our human experience, but there's a line between relating and fabricating.
• For effective conservation storytelling and empathy, filmmakers should document authentic animal behavior and relationships, not manufacture “friendship” stories.
• “Octopuses get scared…they care about their children and they make sacrifices for their children. Those are all real, empirical things that go on in that animal’s life that we relate to…One of the things I really loved about working with that pangolin was…every now and again, he would relax and he’d play. And you could literally feel the joy in that experience. It translates onto film really, really beautifully.” (38:49–40:13, Pippa)

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Oneness with Nature: What’s at Stake (41:19–44:45)

• Patty: “What do we truly gain from an intentional pursuit of oneness with nature? And what are we at risk of if we do not pursue it?” (41:19)
• Pippa:
  • Moments of “oneness with nature” are rare and require grace and presence, but grant an intense sense of belonging—not otherness.
  • “It’s not easy to be a human. One of the things that’s making it hard at the moment is that the natural world is under so much pressure…But...I had about a 5, 10 minute swim with this manta ray…you just have this incredibly reassuring sense that we do belong here. We’re not aliens…Planet Earth is our home and we belong here…and that’s a really, really good feeling.” (41:52–43:17, Pippa)
  • Losing the connection to nature makes us forget our own fragility; this ignorance can make us more destructive and less empathetic.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On facing a baboon in her wilderness retreat:
  "He had this thing where he'd go to the fridge, help himself...then go and sit in the bathtub and eat everything he liked..." (07:50, Pippa)
• On first true marine immersion:
  "I find my grace underwater." (11:51, Pippa)
• On blowing bubbles at a shark:
  "The shark, I almost saw the surprise on his face. It, like, got a fright, kind of jerked up really and went flying away." (31:05, Pippa)
• On the feeling of underwater kinship:
  "It feels more like a coming home...Animals underwater, many of them don’t know what a human being is...we meet each other on equal terms underwater." (27:11, Pippa)
• On rare moments of belonging:
  "You just have this incredibly reassuring sense that we do belong here...Planet Earth is our home and we belong here." (43:17, Pippa)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Baboon encounter & humbling nature (05:54–10:24)
• Pippa’s aquatic origin story, gear, and freediving insights (10:32–16:48)
• Kelp forest description, biodiversity, and threats (21:46–25:45)
• Marine intimacy vs. land animal interactions (27:11–28:31)
• Shark story and predator psychology (28:53–32:23)
• Anthropomorphism, empathy, and individual animal personalities (32:23–37:29)
• Documentary approach—showing authentic connections (38:49–40:13)
• Oneness with nature and its necessity (41:19–44:45)
• Rapid-fire fun questions (44:45–47:29)

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Rapid-Fire Fun: Gear & Snack Preferences

• Essential gear: “A mask, obviously...something more fun would be like a hammock.” (44:49–45:11, Pippa)
• Favorite outdoor snack: South African biltong (“It’s like beef jerky, but way better...It’s a religion here.”) (45:28–46:03, Pippa)
• Outdoor hot take: She’s abandoning barefoot shoes—comfort over primal fashion. (46:19–47:08, Pippa)

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Tone and Takeaways

Throughout the episode, the tone is conversational and immersive, laced with wonder, humor, and vivid storytelling. Pippa Ehrlich’s perspective is grounded in deep respect for nature’s complexity and a passion for bridging human and non-human worlds—without reducing animals to human caricatures.

Closing messages:

• Genuine connection to the natural world yields belonging and responsibility; losing that connection is perilous.
• Empathy and science together offer the strongest foundation for wildlife conservation.

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For further exploration:

• Watch My Octopus Teacher (Netflix) and Pippa's other films (e.g., Kulu’s Journey)
• Explore her work at savechangeproject.com and follow on Instagram @theRewilding

Contact: Email the podcast team at [e-mail] for reactions and guest suggestions.

Transcript

[A]

This episode of the Outside podcast is brought to you by Arkansas the Natural State. The thing that separates an adventure from just a standard issue outing outside is surprise. And there may not be a more surprising outdoor locale than Arkansas. A temperate climate means playing outside year round. And let me tell you, can you ever play from kayaking at Two Rivers park in Little Rock to the famed mountain biking in Bentonville or afloat on the Caddo river or the Buffalo National River. Oh, by the way, was America's first national river. To tromping around Mount Nebo State park for unbelievable views of the Arkansas River Valley. In the natural State, you're never far away from fun. Lakes, rivers, mountains, woods, trails, canoeing, boating, mountain biking, hiking, fishing, whatever you want, whatever your skill level. Your next surprise outside is in Arkansas. Plan your next [e-mail]. This is the Outside Podcast with Patty O.

[B]

We're probably down at like 14 meters. This ball of fish opened up and this huge shark came swimming through the middle of the of the bait ball. And I looked left and I looked right and there was nothing around me. And I realized this shark wants to know what I am.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And it was just coming towards me, coming towards me, coming towards me. I've been told if a shark approaches, you pull your snorkel out and blow bubbles at it. So I pulled it out and went. And the shark, I almost saw the surprise on his face. It like got a fright, kind of jerked up really and went flying away. I couldn't believe it. And I was like, wow, they're not nearly as scary as we've been told. And that was like, gave me a lot of confidence, that moment.

[A]

In the age old mountains versus beach debate, I'm firmly team mountains. I live in them and when I leave them for vacation, it's almost always to visit other mountains. Still, there was a time in my life when I envisioned a future spent permanently in board shorts and a snorkel. When you grow up living through gray and freezing Chicago winters and spend summers perfecting cannonballs at the local pool, Beach Bum is second only to Bears quarterback on most kids list of dream jobs. As I got older and before the mountains truly sunk their hooks in me, I did spend a fair bit of time in the ocean, even going so far as to get scuba certified in college. And the thing that stayed with me the most from my experiences underwater is how alien it felt. How much it made me feel like an astronaut on another planet. Like, did you know that the reason great white sharks can't survive in captivity is that they need to travel hundreds of thousands of miles to be healthy, or that a substantial amount of sea life communicate by lighting up like neon beer signs through the magic of bioluminescence. Did you know that octopuses don't just change skin color, but also skin texture in response to threats like, oh, there's something scary, better turn into a rock. And then it sorta does. There's even a species of jellyfish that is essentially immortal because it can revert itself to its earliest developmental stage and basically restart its own life. The ocean is absolutely bonkers. But there are some people for whom it doesn't feel foreign at all. These strange fish people actually feel more at home underwater than they do on land. People like filmmaker and diver Pippa Ehrlich. Pippa is the co director of the Oscar winning documentary My Octopus Teacher, which follows the unique relationship between an octopus and a free diver named Craig Foster. The film exploded in popularity during the pandemic when we were all craving connection. Human, animal, wi fi, anything. But the film is no one off. All of Pippa's work focuses on the transformative power of immersion in nature and direct relationship with wildlife. Her latest, Kulu's Journey, tells the story of the rewilding of a pangolin, which is a land mammal that looks like a walking pinecone with a tail and the face of a Muppet baby that's also the most trafficked animal in the world. Fascinating as pangolins are, on any given day, you're still most likely to find Pippa in the ocean. Raised in Johannesburg, she didn't realize how uncomfortable she was in the city until she began visiting the coast as a kid. In college, she did everything she could to expand her access to the water, first through scuba diving and eventually free diving. We've had plenty of guests on the show whose lives have been transformed by oceans, lakes and rivers. But all of those lives are lived on the water, not under it. When Pippa talks about the restorative power of a walk in the forest, she's talking about kelp forests. When she talks about direct connection with wildlife, she's talking about the kind of wildlife that isn't afraid of you because it literally has no idea what you are. And here's the craziest part. She's not afraid of it. Even when she knows exactly what it is and that it could tear her to pieces in seconds if it wanted to. Pippa isn't just fascinated by the most alien place on Earth, she's deeply comforted by it. And even if you Never get deeper than your knees in the ocean. She's so convincing. You might find yourself comforted by it too. First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

[B]

So I've had a lot of humbling moments outside. As you can imagine, the combination of humbling and hilarious would be. There was a time, she's about four years ago now, where I'd actually come back from LA after everything that happened with my octopus teacher and the Oscar and all of that. And I lived in a little town about an hour from the center of Cape Town. And I'd gone from being this person who nobody really knew to suddenly it's like a very small, amazing community. But everyone knows everyone. And I used to go to this coffee shop every morning, just quietly do my emails and anyway, and suddenly everyone was, everyone knew who I was and everyone wanted to talk to me and I was just, I was kind of overwhelmed by it because I'm quite an introvert. And I just come off like a big Oscars campaign, which is not for the faint hearted. And I was like, I have to get out of here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I found this very remote little cottage about half an hour from that town, very, very close to the national park, on a farm. It was, it was beautiful. And I had a couple of friends in the area and I was like, here, I will find peace. But actually what I found was a giant male baboon. And he made it, he made it his mission to humble me over the next few weeks. Like the first morning that I woke up, there I was doing some work on my phone in bed and I looked up and there was this huge figure sitting in the window. And I realized it was him. And I jumped out of bed and I held the door shut because I didn't want him to get into the rest of the house. And I came back and he'd stolen my cell Ph.

[A]

Shut up.

[B]

That was the first thing he did. Yeah.

[A]

Did you get the cell phone back? How do you get a cell phone back from a baboon?

[B]

He left it on the roof. So a friend of mine called it and the whole house started vibrating.

[A]

Then I knew, took a couple selfies and he was like, okay, I'm done with this.

[B]

I'm done. Yeah, yeah. And it got crazier and crazier. I mean, he'd like sneak in and he had this thing where he'd go to the fridge, help himself to whatever he could carry and then he'd go and sit. I had this big blue bathtub and he'd go and sit in the bathtub and eat everything he liked and then go back to the fridge.

[A]

He would just let himself in the house.

[B]

He just let himself in the house.

[A]

Excuse my ignorance here, but, like, I live in Colorado. Like, we have, like, bear locks on all of our trash cans. Is there, like, no baboon locks?

[B]

There are, there are, there are, there are.

[A]

But the baboons are smarter than the locks.

[B]

They're. They're. Well, they're outsmarting us. You know, in some places, they've learned to lift a sliding door off its railing and put the glass down carefully so it doesn't break so no one can hear them. And they're sneaky. They're super silent.

[A]

Very sneaky. Also very strong, which is also terrifying

[B]

when you do that. They're very strong. They're also very cool. They're also very cool.

[A]

I don't know if I would describe an animal that's breaking and entering into my home as cool, but I dig your style. That's cool.

[B]

He had a radio collar so we could track him. Okay. So we all had these two. Two way radios in our houses. As he approached, the radio would start. T would go like. And then it would get louder and louder and faster and faster.

[A]

Anyway, it's terrifying. This sounds like a scary movie.

[B]

It was. It was scary for a while. One day I came home and I didn't think he'd got in that day because my alarm hadn't gone off. And what I found was a whole lot of my books from my lounge scattered across the lounge floor. And I looked on the window sill and I found glass. And I was like, uh, oh. And I shone my cell phone up because it was dark at the house. And he pushed one of the glasses of pain in through the cottage pane window. And he couldn't have fit it in there. So he must have sent one of his kids into the house, had them prowl around and see if they could get out of that room and into the kitchen, which they couldn't. And the only thing that was missing was the radio. And I found it days later.

[A]

They took the tracking device.

[B]

They took the tracking device. They're clever. Yeah. This. This experience.

[A]

Wild. This is scary movie. St is wild. This is. Honestly, considering your resume, though, I thought you were going to say, like, oh, I surfed on top of a mermaid and it was lovely. I didn't think that you were going to be like, you know, I got a little B and E baboon happening.

[B]

Yeah. But it taught me that I wasn't ready to live in such a remote place. So it was humbling, and. And. And. And I came back to civilization. Yeah, it was a good lesson, and it was beautiful.

[A]

Maybe getting recognized in public. Is it so bad when you have to deal with, like, a baboon in, like, the middle of nowhere?

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

All right, let's get into it. You grew up in Johannesburg, which is not close to the ocean, but you've spent so much time in the saltwater and years of your career telling aquatic stories that it is a bit shocking that you haven't sprouted gills and flippers. So where does this love and deep connection to the ocean come from?

[B]

I think I was very, very lucky little kid. Twice a year, our parents would take us on holidays to the beach. It was hard for me growing up in a city as kid. I think I can remember getting out of the city and immediately feeling much calmer and happier. And there's something about being in the water as well. And I think a lot of people have this. My. My grandmother always tells me that when I was kind of freaking out as a toddler, which toddlers do, she used to put me in the bath, and then I was happy. So I think there's something. Yeah, there's something about being surrounded by water. It's just like this amniotic, immersive experience that I find very calming and freeing.

[A]

Did you start diving as a child?

[B]

I swam and I surfed a bit, but I think I only really started diving when I went to university, so I came into it late.

[A]

Okay, so then when you started diving at university, like, what drew you to it? What made you fall in love with it? What hooked you?

[B]

I think I'd always just wanted to know what it was like to breathe underwater and see underwater and, you know, some people are amazingly nimble on their feet and just able to climb mountains and jump off things and run on rocks, and I'm pretty clumsy on land, but underwater, I start to channel my inner superhero. That's where I find my. I find my grace underwater.

[A]

I guess I totally understand that. I'd like to joke that there's only a couple places that I feel balletic and light on my feet. And one is on skis, the other is in water, and the third is a wedding reception dance floor. But mostly, being kind of positively buoyant in water helps me. So you're tripping over yourself through your childhood. Then in university, you start to scuba dive. Right. So was that the progression? Like, you went from, like, Swimming and surfing to snorkeling, to scuba diving, to free diving.

[B]

I was like a proper city kid. I didn't sleep in a tent until I was 21 years old. I never went.

[A]

No kidding, really?

[B]

Until I was about 21. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, when I think about that, I was, like, shocked by it. But, yeah, I went to scuba diving, and then I got into freediving in my early 20s, and then I was hooked, and that was all I wanted to do. I mean, I still love scuba diving, but it's, like, heavy, and there's a lot of gear, and you've got to plan really, really carefully. And freediving, you really just need a mask and a snorkel and a pair of fins and a weight belt or just a mask and snorkel at its most. At its most pure. And it's such a mind body exercise. I remember, like, when I was starting out and a lot of it was actually in the kelp forest and swimming down and holding onto a piece of kelp and looking up and just getting used to this idea that my next breath of air was 3 meters up and just learning to be okay with that. It was incredibly empowering, I guess, to gain that kind of sense of trust in your own body.

[A]

Oh, yes. Okay. So you said so many things that I want to ask questions about. First. It's like the gear thing. Let's talk about the gear. Because the gear requirement for free diving is minimal, which I have to believe is a part of the allure, if not like a huge part of the allure. Right. You just need the mask, the flippers, maybe a weight belt, but really that's it. However, lung strength and endurance come into play. Swim technique, efficiency of movement come into play. And maybe the biggest requirement is a calm and relaxed, mental, physical connection. So is there something about swimming underwater unencumbered by, like, bulky or clunky scuba gear that makes you feel more tranquil or more in tune with your surroundings when you're free diving?

[B]

Definitely more connected, I think when you're on scuba, I mean, it's an. It's a. It's a different thing, and it is incredibly connecting. It's much slower, and it's. It's a much less physical experience. But when you're free diving, you're. You're constantly moving between the surface and underwater. So you're kind of moving between these realms, and you have to constantly remind yourself to be calm and slow down because you need to stop in between breaths. You need to go up to the surface. Relax up there. You're supposed to hang out for two minutes before you dive again. But it depends what you're doing. Sometimes if I'm filming, I have to keep going up and down. Yeah, but you just, you get into this rhythm with your body. If you do stop and you do spend two minutes just breathing up and being really, really calm, your bottom time is like two or three times as long as a long breath hold underwater, where you're actually like going down and kicking is about two minutes, but that's long.

[A]

That's super long. That must feel like a lifetime.

[B]

Sometimes it just feels really, really peaceful.

[A]

So do you think that free diving creates a more precious or maybe a more special experience because there's a time limit, like you only have one breath's worth of time to be doing the thing that you're out there to do. Right. Like, I think my love of skiing or mountain biking would probably look a lot different if I had to hold my bre.

[B]

You know, you come up and then you go down again. So I don't know if you feel that limited, but you do feel kind of suspended in time, suspended in space. Because you're living in these little one and a half, two minute patches where you're going down into this really, really silent space and you're seeing what you can find, maybe taking a photograph or filming something. And you have to be really, really present and focused for that time and super aware of your surroundings. Scuba diving is also incredibly beautiful and calming. Yeah, but you're dealing with all the gear and you've got bubbles flying everywhere and animals are much more kind of nervous of you because of all the bubbles, like freediving. You just look like another animal. You just, you become a marine mammal. There have been times, like while I was making Octopus Teacher, I was. I literally went pretty much every day of my life for three or four years. It was incredible.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was really awesome. I'm so privileged and grateful to have had that time. But, you know, now I make films and I go to film festivals and I go and edit in London and I'm moving around the planet all the time, so I haven't. Can't be in that routine all the time. But when I'm here and when the diving's good, I go in every, every day if I can.

[A]

So you've described your first ever free dive as transformative. So let's talk about that. Tell me that story. Why was it transformative?

[B]

I don't think that was my first. I think that was probably my first dive with Craig.

[A]

Okay, tell me about that. The first dive with Craig from my octopus teacher.

[B]

Exactly. I already loved freediving. I really loved the Cult Forest. But we went to a place that I thought I knew quite well. It was just to the left or where I normally dived, and it was very, very shallow. And I was like, why are we going here? The big animals are over there. And Craig took us out into the water and it was like going into the ocean and putting on a pair of magical goggles. Because the things that we. The animals that he was able to find that were just, like, present in that area were creatures that I never imagined existed. And I realized I've been swimming in this place for four years, surrounded by all of these animals, and I didn't even know they were here. So it was incredibly transformative in that way because it taught me a whole new way of seeing and moving through that space and really starting to pay attention to things that were much less obvious but totally fascinating.

[A]

Well, how is that different from your first open water scuba dive in the Port of Elizabeth? Because you've described that as this incredibly memorable moment as well. So what was the difference there? And why was the freediving experience maybe more impactful?

[B]

Well, I guess the first time you go scuba diving, it is just mind blowing because you're jumping off boats.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. You're jumping off a boat, you're dropping down to the bottom of the ocean and you're breathing like a fish.

[A]

Yeah. It feels like you have magical powers.

[B]

Yeah, you do.

[A]

Yeah. When I was getting my opening water certification in college, you know, we started in a pool, just kneeling down, and I actually had to stand up because I was choking on water. Because when I went underwater and was breathing for the first time in my life, I was smiling so big that water was actually getting into my mouth. Because it does. It feels magical. You feel like you have superpowers or something.

[B]

Yeah, completely. And it's kind of overwhelming because you've got to manage all the stuff that you haven't used before. And the stakes are kind of high because you're. Yes. At the bottom of the ocean. So it's a very intense, very exciting experience. But. But the first time you do it, I mean, unless a whale or a shark swim by, you're probably not noticing the small things. You're just like, wow, this. This is an experience. You know, when I. When I've gone free diving before, I'd been looking for big sharks or big fish, and I kind of knew Their names, and I sort of knew how to find them. And it was entertaining to see them, especially the big shots. It was, like, incredible, incredible. But suddenly you start to realize how these little things like an octopus or a tiny shark or a cuttlefish that can pretend to be three or four different animals, you know, that they're so smart and they're so cryptic, and that you get a sense of how this whole ecosystem is knitted together and how everything's related to everything else. And this is something that Craig has said as well. You become aware that there are thousands of eyes watching, watching you all the time. As much as you're trying to be aware of what's around you, there are, you know, and they're not eyes that you can imagine. They're like the eyes of starfishes and the eyes of sea urchins and the eyes. The eyes of creatures whose eyes don't work anything like ours. But they're all aware of your presence. There is so much life in a cult forest. It's one of the most biodiverse places on Earth. It's this high, high, high, high, high concentration of life. And suddenly you're going into that space and becoming part of it. And some of these creatures respond to you, some of them don't. But, yeah, it's an exciting feeling to become aware of these kind of thousands of life forms around you.

[A]

I think in terms of, like, unreal outdoor environments, kelp forest might be one of those things that, like, most people don't really have an understanding of, or maybe they don't even know, like, it exists or what it looks like or why it's super cool. You know, they're often called the redwoods of the ocean. They are wildly dense and nutrient rich. They're teeming with marine life. Like you said, there's, like, thousands of species of animals that live in them. But this is just what I know from a quick Google and some of the films that I've watched. Like, I've never swum around in one, and I bet a huge swath of our audience hasn't either. So can you please paint a vivid picture of a kelp forest for all of us folks who have never seen one in person?

[B]

So the first thing you. You should know about kelp forests is that they cover 30% of our global coastlines, or they should. So that is vast, and they only grow close to the coast. They have to be in shallow water. So these are ecosystems that we've been kind of interacting with since the beginning of time. There's an archaeological record of human beings living on the shores of the great African sea forest in South Africa for 200,000 years. You know, they're a big part of our kind of evolutionary psyche. And you go into a kelp forest and it looks like there's just this kind of brown stringy stuff floating on the surface. And normally some of it washed up on the beach as well. You have no idea what you're in for. And then you put on a mask and you swim down and suddenly you realize you are in this totally three dimensional underwater jungle. And there are fish flying down like birds from the canopy. And there are starfishes and sea urchins creeping along the bottom. And our kelp forest is these long, straight, almost lines of bamboo. So you get these passageways, you can swim through these, like narrow corridors of kelp. And what that does is the fronds on the top up kind of separate the light into these incredible beams. So it's almost like being in a church. You're moving through these dancing beams of light. From a filmmaking point of view, it's the most cinematic environment I've ever filmed because the light is always beautiful. You can always find a patch of cold forest or a cave or something where there's just something truly magical going on. Incredibly vivid color, colors. The fish are different colors. The sponges are different colors, the urchins are different colors. There are nudibranchs and giant kind of round turban shells, huge red sea fans. And it's just like this pastel underwater painting. And you also never know what's going to happen. And that's one of the most exciting things, especially when you're able to go into a place every day, which is what I had for many years. Sometimes you go into the cold forest and you don't see that much. You see maybe a couple of fish. Other times you go in and a huge swarm of jellyfish will have drifted in because the wind has switched. And suddenly you're swimming around in this sea of blinking lights. Because many of these jellyfish have little lights, little actually hairs, but they're literally like blinking and flashing in front of you. Other times you can go in and there'll just be huge schools of fish, like shoals and shoals of fish moving along the coast, being chased by seals. And you just, you just never know what you're going to find. Sometimes you'll go in and there'll be an aggregation of spotted gully sharks, which are these really, really sweet, harmless sharks, but they're big and sometimes you'll find 30 of them all swimming around together. Yeah, it's, it's exciting and it's magical. My first love is the kelp forest. I'm really, really lucky. I live next to one of the healthiest kelp forests on earth. Like our kelp forest, at least from a habitat perspective, is really thriving. But in our lifetime, 60% of the world's kelp forests have disappeared. And I think that's something people. Yeah, it's terrifying and it's something people don't really know. And there are lots of reasons for it. I mean, California's kelp forest only really started to disappear in 2013 because warming oceans caused us a disease among starfishes. And those starfishes eat urchins and they all died. And with them gone, the urchins went crazy and they've just devoured miles and miles of kelp forest. Off the coast of California. A similar thing happened in Australia. In other places, the ocean's just getting too warm and kelp is dying or else it's like shifting north or south towards the poles. Yeah. And that's kind of a worrying thing and something that people need to be aware of. It's like we are going through this mass scale deforestation, but it's just, it's happening running underwater, so it's completely invisible, but it's as if the Amazon was disappearing. We just can't see it.

[A]

I want to tell you a little bit of a story about my background and I want to use it to examine your life. Being that I live in Colorado, it's probably not a shock that most of my outdoor time is spent doing land lubber things. But I am a swimmer and I've spent a lot of time in the water. I got my scuba cert in college. I've snorkeled a bunch and done my own version of, of free diving. And I have these very specific fishy interactions that are burned into my memory. Like when I was following a technicolored fish miles out in the water off of Key Largo, only to turn around and see that I was being followed by a barracuda. Dolphins swam right past me when I was surfing in California. I've watched nurse sharks chomp on something crunchy in coral reef. I've seen all sorts of cool fish swim around a shipwreck that I return to all the time in Lake Michigan. These interactions to me seem different than, say, when I watch a lynx bound through powder snow here in Colorado, because when I'm in The water. I feel kind of like I'm an astronaut visiting an alien world. Do you feel like that? Is that why you love interacting with and filming marine life? Because you're a stranger in a strange land? Or do you feel like you're returning home when you're in the water and all the marine life is like, pippa, it's so good to see you. Welcome back. We've missed you.

[B]

I don't feel like an alien in my. I feel, it feels more like a coming home. And I, and I think that kind of the reason that it's so immersive and the reason that you're able to get much closer to animals underwater. I mean, you can't get close to a bird the way you can get close to a fish. And the reason for that is they're suspicious of us. And they're suspicious of us because we have shared the same space for hundreds of thousands of years and they've learned to be wary of us. But animals underwater, many of them don't know what a human being is. And, you know, I guess there's a couple of fish that have, that have met spear fishermen in their life.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Many, many, many animals, they have no reason to fear us. So they can actually approach you with just like total curiosity. And that's already, it's like we, we meet each other on, on equal terms underwater. I don't imagine a lynx would just walk up to you, curiously, without, without a, without a lot of suspicion first.

[A]

I don't think it would. In fact, probably I wouldn't want it to.

[B]

I feel almost more comfortable in my body when I'm in the ocean than when I'm on land. I just love the feeling of being suspended in a body of water. I mean, it's entertaining to be surrounded by animals, but it's also connecting. And it's kind of humbling and reassuring to find yourself surrounded by life in that way.

[A]

More from diver and Oscar winning documentarian Pippa Ehrlich after the break. Once, when diving in Mozambique, you had an encounter with a bull shark that you've said it changed how you thought about all animals. Can you retell that story?

[B]

Yes. You've done a lot of research. Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

So bull sharks, they are, they don't have a good reputation often because they're found in river mouths because they have this crazy adaptation. I mean, I think They've been found 100km up the Amazon, for example.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they don't have good eyesight. So if they're curious about something, the only option they have is to, like, taste it. So that's not. That's not ideal when you're dealing with a shark. Yeah. So my first boyfriend taught me how to free dive, and he and I did this crazy backpacking trip through Southern Africa, and we ended up in Mozambique. Been free diving for. For a while, but, like, this was a whole other level where we were driving boats through crazy surf to get out to sea, diving on these deep offshore reefs, like kilometers and kilometers and kilometers off the shore. And I remember the very, very first time we jumped off the boat, we kind of jumped off and we swam down. And the first thing we saw was these two hammerheads swimming against the current. And I kind of went up to the surface with eyes like this. Sean, he was just like. He looked at me like, what do you mean? Of course there's a shark. We're in the ocean. And I was like, oh, okay. And probably about a week later, he and his uncle, they were spearfishing job fish, which are maybe. Maybe a meter, a meter and a half sometimes. And. And there was this giant shoal. It was literally a wall of fish. It was incredible. And I. I haven't seen schools of fish like that, so it's. But his uncle shot a fish. My boyfriend at the time went to help him, and they disappeared. And this big wall of fish was just swimming around me in a circle. We're probably down at, like, 14 meters. And then this ball of fish opened up, and this huge shark. I don't know how big it was, but in that moment, it felt really big. Came swimming through the middle of the. Of the bait ball. And I looked left and I looked right, and I was like. And there was nothing around me. And I realized this shark wants to know what I am.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And it was just coming towards me, coming, coming towards me, coming towards me. And I remembered, I've been told if a shark approaches, you pull your snorkel out and blow bubbles at it. So I pulled it out and went. And the shark, I almost saw the surprise on his face. It, like, got a fright, kind of jerked up, really, and went flying away. I couldn't believe it. And I was like, wow, it's true what they say about sharks. They are kind of nervous underwater. They're not nearly as scary as we've been told. And that was, like, gave me a lot of confidence, that moment.

[A]

That's shocking because I would be, you know, thanking my lucky stars that, you know, screaming underwater, go away. You know, like, would make this shark away. You know, if this giant being with, you know, a circular saw for a mouth was cruising towards me, I don't know if I'd think, like, I'm good to go for the rest of the time in the water. So did it flip some sort of switch in you to make you feel like I can be a being in this space and not be seen as a threat, but also not be seen as prey?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It flipped a switch. It just deepened my understanding of predators, I guess. And when you think about it, when you're an ocean creature, everything's trying to eat you all the time and you start small. You know, even the biggest shark was a little guy at some point and he didn't grow big unless he was really, really careful and really clever about not getting eaten by something else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a big shark has learned to be cautious, otherwise he wouldn't have survived so long.

[A]

You've talked about how in your work you don't want to anthropomorphize the animals, the subjects of your films, but you've also said that engaging emotionally with marine life is essential for conservation. And I think most folks would think that those things might seem to be one in the same. So how are they not? How do you develop an emotional connection to animals without attributing human, like characteristics to those animals?

[B]

I mean, anthropomorphism is a really tricky term to get your head around. I think saying animals have emotions, or at least instincts, which is kind of what emotions are, is, is not a far stretch. They're not, not that different from us. To say this fish wanted to be my friend, that's probably anthropomorphism.

[A]

Okay, that.

[B]

To say this fish was curious about me. No, that's. That's something we can relate to as humans, but we're not projecting something onto that fish because it's very, very likely that it was curious.

[A]

So do you think that you lose something when you anthropomorphize the animals?

[B]

I think it just takes you further than the truth. You know, we can look at the experience that Craig and the octopus had. I don't know how that octopus felt about Craig. It was certainly entertained by him and it certainly didn't feel threatened by him because, you know, he'd arrive at her den and she'd come out and they'd kind of do things together. An octopus's whole world is defined by two conflicting instincts. And the one is the fact that it's got this really big brain. So it's super curious about things. It kind of. It needs to be entertained all the time. Otherwise, it's bored. But it's paid a big price in order to have that big brain. Brain. It had to give away its shell because it's really a snail. An octopus should be living in a shell, but it's not. So because of that, it's really, really vulnerable. It's got to be wary all the time. So it's living in this constant state of curiosity versus fear and vigilance. I don't think that's anthropomorphism. You know, the more you understand about these animals from a scientific point of view, the easier you can get into their minds and start to imagine what might be motivating them. And for me, that. That's much more interesting than simplifying it down and saying, oh, he just wanted to be Craig's friend, or she just wanted to be Craig's friend.

[A]

So hear me out on this. And I'm wondering if you have done this before. Like, in my home, I speak to my two dogs as if they can speak English back to me. We have conversations all the time. They don't answer in English, but we do communicate. I also call my husky a handsome gentleman and my pointer a classy lady. They pick up on my emotions, I pick up on theirs. The relationship I have with my dogs is one of the deepest, most meaningful of my life, human or otherwise. And I think a reason, if not the reason, is that the process of anthropomorphizing them is a crucial component to my emotional attachment. So what am I missing? How do your own personal relationships with animals contrast with a relationship like I have with my dog?

[B]

Well, I think a domestic animal is very different. Okay, but don't I. I believe animals have emotions, and they have personalities, and we can form bonds with them. I mean, I spent three years making a film about a pangolin, which is this, like, very, very ancient mammal dinosaur. Looks like. Yeah, yeah, looks like.

[A]

It looks like a potato bug, roly poly mixed with an armadillo mixed with a dinosaur.

[B]

Exactly. Mixed with a T. Rex. And even when you're looking at a pangolin in real, you can't believe that this mystical thing is there in front of your eyes because it's just so out there. But they are so cute, and they're so vulnerable. And I probably met 10 pangolins while I was working on the film. And the one I really got to know was. Was Kulu, who was our main character. But every single one of those animals had different personalities. Yeah. The first pangolin I went for a walk with, his name was George. And we'd have to drive through Joburg to go to this field where we'd walk him. He'd kind of climb out of his box while we were in the car, and he climb onto your lap and he'd cuddle up in your arms and put his little face in your neck. He just loved to be cuddled, this pangolin. And it's a strange, scaly thing, but you can feel it wants to be close. Kulu, on the other hand, was just, like, super independent. Not very friendly at all. He didn't like being babied. And you really got that feeling from him.

[A]

Well, so how is this not anthropomorphizing? Like, even what you. What you're. You're describing here, like, it sounds like you're describing the difference between, like, a human toddler and a human teenager.

[B]

As humans, we can only look at the world through. Through the lens of our own experience. How. How else can we begin to understand things, you know? So you're going to fall into the trap of anthropomorphism. You can try and understand how an octopus thinks from the scientific facts you know about them, but how can you explain the different personalities of one octopus from another or one pant pangolin from another? I don't know. All you can do is relate to them, tell that story based on your own human experience. So anthropomorphism is a tricky one. Like, the term itself, I really, really struggle with. Yeah, our DNA is like, what is it, 98. The same as a chimpanzee or 99%.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we're not that far from. From a pangolin then, or even from an octopus, so. So much of our makeup is similar. Similar. We all had common ancestors. So to say that they're having a completely different experience to us, I think is quite limited.

[A]

Yeah, okay. But also, you're not trying to place your own experience upon them because that would, what, cheapen it or it just wouldn't be true?

[B]

No, no, no, I think you're right. I think it would cheapen it. I can't psychoanalyze. But you can psychoanalyze a pangolin to some extent, because we're so. You know. You know, when you've pulled this little guy out of a box and he's been dehydrated, he probably hasn't had any water for two weeks, he's had people shouting around him, you know, you know, he's going to be traumatized. When he hears loud music or smells cigarette smoke or anything that reminds him of that traumatic experience, he's likely to roll up in a ball.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And start shaking. Yeah, it's a. It's a good question. So much of my work is about bringing humans into the emotional world of animals and allowing us to feel emotionally connected to something that maybe you wouldn't ordinarily relate to, like an octopus or even a shark.

[A]

So how do you do that in your film? How do you appeal to the audience's heart and humanity without giving an octopus, a seabird, a shark, a pangolin, or any other animal human characteristics?

[B]

I guess you just try and show their world and you try and film them in the most intimate way that you can, and you speak to the humans that have had those relationships with them, and you try and understand that, and you try and get into their world in the most authentic way that you can. And. And I think naturally a kind of emotional response comes through from that. And there are things that happen in an octopus's life that also happen in a human's life. You know, octopuses get scared. Octopuses face dangers and have to heal from terrible things that happen to them. Them, they care about their children and they make sacrifices for their children. And those are all very real, empirical things that go on in that animal's life that we relate to that emotionally because we go through the same experiences. One of the things I really loved about working with that pangolin was a lot of the time he seemed very, very serious and mission driven. And he was. He was looking for ants. He didn't feel like having humans around. But every now and again, he would relax and he'd play. And you could literally feel the joy in that experience. And it translates onto film really, really beautifully. Like watching a pangolin splashing around in the rain after a storm. You hardly have to do any work. It's just a joyous moment that everybody can relate to because we've all. We've all splashed around in puddles. We know how it feels.

[A]

Well, to me, all your films examine, like, a special heightened bond between animals and humans. Is your goal to simply document that relationship, or are you trying to inspire the audience to have that type of relationship, too?

[B]

I think I'm trying to inspire the audience to care about life forms other than themselves and to question where they fit within the natural world and the hierarchy which we've been fed, which is this idea that we are separate from animals or we're above animals. I think I really want People to recognize that there is so much about us that's similar. Animals have so much brilliance. They're so smart in ways that we're not. So that's a big part of it is actually just having respect for other creatures and realizing that we're all part of the same system and we all need to be here. I think it's interesting that there are certain people that find it quite threatening, the idea that. That you could have a relationship or get close to a wild animal, because the assumption is that if they're wild, they're distant and they're separate.

[A]

I think very often there can feel like this invisible curtain between us and nature, you know, a separation between the human world and the more than human world. And your work and your personal time outside seems to me to represent a stripping away of that veil, that barrier. So with that in mind, in your opinion, what do we truly gain from an intentional pursuit of oneness with nature? And what are we at risk of if we do not pursue it?

[B]

That is a really beautiful question.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And very, very beautifully put. I think what we gain when we intentionally pursue an experience of oneness with nature. And those are rare moments. You know, you really have to be in a complete state of grace to have. And it's normally just that glimpse where you get that. That sense of oneness with nature. But what I found in the very kind of few privileged moments that I've had is I found, like, intense sense of belonging. And I think it's not easy to be a human. And I'm finding it especially difficult. It's not easy. It's not easy. And there are all kinds of things that make it hard. But one of the things that's making it hard at the moment. Moment is that the natural world is under so much pressure. So many of us feel really bad about it and really stressed out about it and sad. It's sad that so much of nature has disappeared. Yeah. And it's very, very threatening to our continued existence as humans. And it's very, very threatening to millions of other species with us. But, you know, I had an experience recently where I was swimming on a. I was on a tropical island and I went for a swim and. And I swam up to this manta ray and it looked me in the eyes and it flipped onto its back and it held my gaze for a long time. I had about 5, 10 minutes swim with this animal. We were just looking at each other. And you just have this incredibly reassuring sense that we do belong here. We're not Aliens, we have a right to be here, and we don't have to feel bad about our existence. And that's enormously reassuring. We're just another animal. And of course, with that comes a lot of. A lot of responsibility. Knowing that means we need to try and be less destructive. Planet Earth is our home, and we belong here. And that's a really, really good feeling. And I think if you never go into nature, or if you only ever approach it from an extractive point of view, I mean, every single one of us is connected to the natural world. We made of organic things. We consume organic, organic things. Our houses are made out of organic material. So no matter where you live on Planet Earth, it's undeniable that you're part of nature. When you don't have that connection with other life forms, when you don't get a sense of the kind of vastness of the natural world, when we're never humbled by nature, when we never get that. That sense of vulnerability, we can get very out of touch with our own fragility. And I think that's dangerous. And I think it's leading to many of the kind of problematic characters we see in the world today. I think they've. Perhaps they're not in touch enough with their own mortality and their place within the ecosystem. You know, the great matrix of life that connects us, we're woven into.

[A]

Is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear you cannot live without.

[B]

I mean, a mask, obviously.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Okay.

[B]

Something more fun would be like a hammock. I don't go anywhere. I don't. I don't do any hikes or go on any adventures without a hammock.

[A]

Really.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

You always plan to take a little R and R. That's nice. I like that.

[B]

No, I always do. Because even if you just like stopping for a second, if you don't want to sit on the ground, like, you can just.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

This is. It's kind of. It's kind of immersive lying in a hammock. It's. It's. There's something about it. It holds your weight a bit like being in the water.

[A]

Yeah. I was going to say, I think this is like the trend here is

[B]

you like to hang out, I guess. Yeah, it's important to hang out. Yeah.

[A]

Best outdoor snack.

[B]

Probably like a very South African thing. It's called biltong. It's basically. It's kind of like beef jerky, but. But way better.

[A]

Oh, explain. Because I. I consider myself a jerky. Connoisseur. And I've never heard of this.

[B]

Oh my goodness. Well, if you ever come South Africa, let me know. Okay, perfect. I'll sort you out. So people have been drying meat in Africa since the beginning of time. You can imagine. Yeah, but it's like a, it's a real art form here. You can get beef biltong, you can get game biltong. And it's spiced in a really incredible way. And yeah, it's, it's kind of like a religion in South Africa. It's something that South Africans take very serious.

[A]

Seriously, biltong. Okay. So it's a, it's a religion and a religious experience. I like it. Eat this dried meat, see the far beyond across the rainbow bridge. I'm into that. I'm into a snack like that for sure. What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

[B]

I'll tell you one, but it might only be controversial. Within my hiking group, I've got a group of friends and twice a year we all do a multi day hike together. We've been doing it for like 10 years and we got into the religion of barefoot shoes. They just got very, very thin soles. Okay. They're like a huge thing here. Everyone wears barefoots. Okay, I'm done with barefoot shoes. I can no longer wear them.

[A]

Are your feet all gnarled? Is that why?

[B]

They're not gnarled yet, but if I keep wearing those shoes, I don't think I'll be able to walk much longer. That's the point I've reached.

[A]

Feet on the verge of being gnarled. That makes sense to me. I mean, if you got gnarled toes, it's probably going to make putting flippers on really hard. You don't want to do that.

[B]

I went to buy some new shoes this morning because I went hiking with my brother on Saturday and couldn't walk afterwards.

[A]

That's not what you want.

[B]

The idea is, it's like, there's like thesis is written on it. The idea that you can go back to your, to your primal way of being and lay your toes properly and feel the ground beneath your feet and all of that, all it takes is

[A]

stepping on one shark fin rock and you're like, well, I'm done. And the fun, the thing I love, love about these humans who are like, no, I'm doing the caveman diet and I don't wear shoes when I go running in the woods and stuff. It's like, oh, really? That's cool. You drove here in a car though, Pippa Ehrlich is an award winning filmmaker and conservation journalist whose work focuses on the relationship between humans and the natural world. Her mesmerizing Oscar winning documentary My Octopus Teacher follows a unique interspecies relationship and highlights the transformative power of daily immersion in nature. It's streaming on Netflix right now and you should absolutely watch it and slash or rewatch it because it is amazing. You can check out her other films like Pangolin, Kulu's Journey and My Mercury on all of the streaming platforms and head over to save changeproject.com to check out more of Pippa's amazing ability to blend science, storytelling and environmental advocacy. Follow her filmmaking and oceanic adventures on Instagram at the Rewilding. And don't forget this podcast is more than just a radio show. We got moving pictures too. Check out video episodes of the show and follow us on YouTube @Outside Podcast 1. Also, remember that we want to hear from you, so email your pod reactions, guest nominations, who you think would win in a synchronized swim contest, Aquaman or the Little Mermaid, and anything else you'd like to tell and or ask us to outside podcastsoutside inc.com the outside podcast is hosted and produced by me, Patty o', Connell, but you can call me Patty O. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard Micah I'm a Merman Abrams, music and sound design by Robbie Carpenter and booking and research by Jeanette Courts. The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member [e-mail] podplus.