It’s True, Boating the Grand Canyon Will Change Your Life, with Steve Kenney

Summary

Podcast Summary: Outside Podcast — “It’s True, Boating the Grand Canyon Will Change Your Life, with Steve Kenny”

Host: Patty O’Connell
Guest: Steve Kenny (Grand Canyon dory guide and poet)
Published: August 5, 2026
Duration: ~61 minutes

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Overview

In this heartfelt and humorous episode, Patty O’Connell sits down with legendary Grand Canyon river guide and poet Steve Kenny. The conversation explores how running rivers—especially the Grand Canyon—can completely transform one’s life. Kenny shares his unlikely journey from careers in banking, academia, and basketball coaching to becoming a beloved dory guide and a keeper of river lore. The episode delves into themes of community, personal transformation, the power of moving water, and the importance of human connection, finding joy, and living in the present. Kenny reads a moving poem dedicated to a late friend, underscoring the fleeting nature of life and the importance of cherishing every moment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Steve Kenny’s Unusual Path to River Guiding

• From Academia to the River:
  Steve had “three careers” before becoming a guide: basketball coach, college professor, investment banker.
  "[Guiding] Coming to guiding 28 years ago was a leap of faith. I stepped off the cliff..." (10:43 – Steve Kenny)

• The Invitation That Changed Everything:
  After attending a desert survival course, river guide Greg Hennington invited Steve to serve as camp help, saying:
  “What's three days for the rest of your life?” (11:10–11:22 – Interviewer recounting Greg’s words)
  Kenny credits both Greg and Larry Meek (another river mentor) with steering him toward this new path.

2. Importance of Community

• Misfits and Belonging:
  Steve found acceptance in the eclectic, tight-knit river community of Terlingua, Texas, a “family of misfits.” "They were a family of misfits to the outside world. To them, they had found the secret." (13:51 – Steve Kenny)
  His mother encouraged him to leave the conventional path and embrace this new life.

3. Transformation Through the River

• Letting Go and Embracing the Present:
  Steve describes how the river strips people—guides and guests alike—of emotional baggage, helping them shed anxieties, fears, and expectations.
  "Our job is to help them shred… let’s take that onion that is your entire life and let’s start pulling back pieces of it." (38:03–38:31 – Steve Kenny)

• The Odyssey of a River Trip:
  Kenny believes a river journey is both literal and metaphorical, akin to Homer’s Odyssey: guests arrive as tourists, but through shared hardships and beauty, strangers become close companions.
  “There’s trials and tribulations… all of a sudden total strangers are best friends…” (28:19–29:32 – Steve Kenny)

• Moments of Hardship and Growth:
  Life on the river is unpredictable, and it’s often in adversity—a turned boat, a rainstorm—that bonds are forged.

4. The Power of Listening

• Guiding as Deep Listening:
  Steve emphasizes that the most important skill for a guide is listening, not entertaining.
  “We are here to listen… Everyone's got a story, and you want to know that story.” (33:30–34:54 – Steve Kenny)
• Facilitating Guests' Transformation:
  By creating space for silence and attentive presence, guests feel safe to open up, as in the story of a bereaved veteran he guided.
  “Let's do it together… and it was so cool for him to absorb this place and absorb where he was in his life.” (36:12–37:07 – Steve Kenny)

5. Love, Laughter, and Tears: Steve’s Guiding Philosophy

• Life’s Thesis:
  Inspired by both basketball lore and river guiding, Steve’s self-described life thesis is:
  “Love, laugh, and cry every day.” (22:44–22:57 – Steve Kenny)
• How the River Amplifies the Human Experience:
  The river, especially the Grand Canyon, has a profound ability to connect people deeply—because of both the landscape's grandeur and the group’s shared struggle.

6. On Conservation and Purpose

• Inspiring Protection Through Experience:
  Steve believes seeing a wild place like the Grand Canyon is necessary for protecting it.
  “Yes, we want you to be inspired…You got to write your congressman and senator.” (43:44–44:20 – Steve Kenny)
• Place vs. People:
  While the river itself inspires his poetry, it’s the relationships forged on it that most fuel his creativity.
  “For me, it is the interpersonal relationships.” (46:21–46:36 – Steve Kenny)

7. Writing and Poetry

• Guiding as Muse:
  Guiding multi-day river trips unlocked Steve’s writing, giving rise to his new book “Scriblins, Poetry from Mountains, Deserts and Rivers.”
  “Once I got to be out here for extended times, that’s where I started to write. The journals flowed into a story, the story flowed into a poem…” (48:06–48:29 – Steve Kenny)

8. Risk, Fulfillment, and Advice for Seekers

• On Making the Leap:
  Steve doesn’t sugarcoat the financial or personal risks of leaving a “secure” life for guiding, but for those who can:
  “Immerse yourself in it… and if you got enough money to go to the Baja and go surfing, fantastic. But at some point… you’ve got to start taking care of business.” (49:53–51:08 – Steve Kenny)
• On Being a ‘Lifer’:
  “To be a lifer like me, you’re rolling the dice, and I figured out how to do it.” (51:35–51:48 – Steve Kenny)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Humility:
  “To be the guy that rows Martin Litton's last dory, the Sequoia, is hard to describe. I cherish tradition, and I cherish the history. I think of myself as the caretaker.” — Steve Kenny (06:22–06:50)

• On Guests' Transformation:
  “Facilitating someone stripping back the layers of the onion to reveal themselves on this trip—that’s the biggest thing I talk about.” — Steve Kenny (38:03–38:31)

• On the Relationship Between Writing and Place:
  “The guiding life gave me the writing life.” — Steve Kenny (47:07)

• On The Value of Listening:
  “You got to listen because everyone’s got a story… once I know their story, then I know where to lean to and what to maybe concentrate on more.” — Steve Kenny (34:11–34:54)

• On the Fleeting Nature of Life:
  “One of the most valuable things I’ve learned down here is how fleeting life is… It has taught me to believe in the present. And I struggle every day.” — Steve Kenny (41:35–42:24)

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Timestamped Highlights

• Steve’s Humbling and Hilarious Moments on the River — 06:00–08:22
• The Invitation That Changed His Life: “Three days for the rest of your life” — 11:02–12:32
• The Importance of River Community & Kinship — 13:51–15:34
• On Letting Go of Conventional Success — 16:42–17:22
• The “Life Below the Rim” Concept — 17:33–18:34
• First Step into Grand Canyon: The Point of No Return — 19:05–20:12
• What the River Gives That Other Careers Did Not — 20:33–22:20
• The Power and Necessity of Listening as a Guide — 33:01–36:12
• When Guests Carry Deep Baggage, and the River’s Healing Path — 37:23–38:31
• Stories of Terminally Ill Guests and Their Impact — 38:31–41:19
• Guiding as Inspiration for Writing & Conservation — 43:28–44:20
• People vs. Place as Inspiration — 45:50–46:36
• Advice for Outdoor-Curious Career Changers — 49:16–51:48
• Hot Take & Final Round — 59:06–59:38

The Poem: “Because Sometimes, Someday Never Comes”

• Deeply moving reading sharing the story of a departed friend—an unforgettable, teary moment.
  • Begins: 52:21 (set up)
  • Poem Reading: 55:54–58:02

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Notable Poem Excerpt

“Because sometimes, someday never comes.
You live in the ‘way’ in case tomorrow becomes undone.
Days to night are not like light to dark.
Joyous convictions are what will flame your spark…”
— Steve Kenny, reading for Frenchie (55:54–58:02)

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Final Rapid-Fire (59:00+)

• Cannot live without: Theracane (“boatman’s girlfriend”)
• Best outdoor snack: Bacon
• Hottest take: “You buy the ticket, you take the ride.” (Hunter S. Thompson)

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Tone & Style

The episode is equal parts lyrical, raw, humorous, and emotionally candid. Steve Kenny is both ruggedly authentic and deeply vulnerable, inspiring laughter, reflection, and tears. Patty O’Connell draws out stories with warmth and genuine awe, making the listener feel embedded in river life’s community.

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Summary

This episode celebrates the ineffable magic of wild river journeys and the spiritual and emotional transformations they enable. Through Steve Kenny’s journey from academia to dory guiding and poetry, listeners witness a rare and honest meditation on living authentically, forging true human connection, and cherishing the fleeting present—whether on the water or back on land. The Grand Canyon—and moving water in general—proves a timeless catalyst for growth, joy, and compassion. The river, through people like Kenny, imparts lessons that echo long after the trip is over: “Love, laugh and cry each and every day… because sometimes, someday never comes.”

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Recommended for: Anyone interested in wild places, personal transformation, the magic of guiding, poetic perspectives on life, and the power of authentic community.

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Buy Steve Kenny’s Book: Scriblins, Poetry from Mountains, Deserts and Rivers (40:51)

Book a River Trip: oars.com

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Transcript

[Patty O'Connell]

This is the outside podcast with patty o.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

So the way that you talk about this place, about the people, about rowing, about connection to nature is incredibly poetic. It is not just that you are a boatman, but you are a bard. Congratulations.

[Steve Kenny]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

The new book, it is so good.

[Steve Kenny]

I have to take a piss.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

By the way, do you. Do you have to get up and go to the.

[Steve Kenny]

Can we take a pee?

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Cut. Pee break.

[Steve Kenny]

Bang. Pee break. Sorry. I'm not losing.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Mind the mic.

[Steve Kenny]

I'm losing. I'm losing the kidney. Mind the mic.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I love my job. This is so good.

[Patty O'Connell]

This past June, I checked the box of a bucket list adventure 20 years in the Making Boating the Grand Canyon if you recall, about a year ago I interviewed Sindel Dale, a Grand Canyon living legend who's been working for oars, one of the oldest river trip guiding companies in the United states since the 1980s. Sindel guides adoree a wooden boat known for its beautiful V shape and balletic movement in the water. A type of boat I've been in awe of for decades. During the summers of my ski bumming twenties, I lived out of dry bags and spent as much time as possible on rivers, hoping one day to become a dory guide, maybe even making it to the River Rat version of the big show, the Grand Canyon. But sometimes, really, without much reason, dreams disappear into the fog of life. I'm sure you know by now that I did not become a Dory guide in the Grand Canyon. But my fascination with the grand and with those who dedicate their lives to running all two hundred and eighty miles of frothing whitewater within its depths, has never left. Which is probably why I sat dazed and confused for an indeterminate length of time when staring at an email from OARS asking if I'd like to join a Dory trip as an assistant baggage boatman lovingly referred to as as a swamper. Of course I said yes. And I immediately asked if, in addition to helping roe and rig an 18 foot rubber raft weighed down with 16 guests worth of gear and their poop, if I could do what I do best, yap on a microphone and if they had a guide in mind for said Yappage. And boy oh boy, did they ever. Steve Kenny has all the markers of someone who has been boating for nearly three decades. Silver on his wrists, turquoise hung from his neck, hidden at times by a ZZ top length beard. His traps rise sharply from his shoulders and connect in rippling bulbous mass directly to his ears. Steve's arms make redwoods look like kindling and his hands can crush watermelons. When he walks, the earth shakes because he is essentially a shaved gorilla but with a good tan, the sight softened only by his attire, typically a weather battered Hawaiian shirt and a woman's dress. However, do not be fooled by his gruff exterior. Before Steve's life was transformed by what he amusingly refers to as simply moving water, he'd already had three careers. He'd been a basketball coach, a college professor and an investment banker. Despite a genuine love of the outdoors, he never seriously considered making it his life. But before he went back to grad school for a PhD, he decided to try thru hiking the Appalachian Trail. You know, like a gap year thing. It was during a wilderness survival course that he took as preparation for that trip that Steve was handed, wrapped up in a bow by a river guide, a gift. We'll get into that gift and how it ultimately resulted in him committing his life to guiding dories in the Grand Canyon. Steve rose the Sequoia, a boat of Martin Litton's, the legendary early environmentalist and Grand Canyon dory superhero. But Steve is known for much more than his power and ace guiding on the sticks. He's also a poet, and after dinner at camp or moments before dropping into a wave train, Steve often recites poems he's written. In fact, he just published his first book of poetry, Scriblins, Poetry from Mountains, deserts and rivers. Steve's muse is the river, to be sure, but his poems and just the way he talks, as you're about to hear, express an emotional vulnerability and worldliness that comes less from the river and more from the countless people he's guided and befriended over the last three decades. I've been home now for a few weeks. The Grand Canyon sand has been washed out of my hair, my pronounced sandal tan has evened out, and my hot pink toenails are all but chipped away. Other than it was surreal, amazing, unbelievable, beautiful. I haven't been able to fully voice what floating the grand was like, what it did to me. I've thumbed through pictures and video and even audio recordings, daydreamed moments and told stories. But I still just can't seem to find the words to express the full breadth of running the Colorado through the Big Ditch. To describe the ineffable, to explicate the specialness of a landscape that has been a treasured and sacred place to countless humans over thousands of years. A landscape that can inspire and create deep and profound, profound relationships with total strangers. You need a person who is tapped into its soul and their own. You need a poet. You need Steve Kenny.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

All right, Steve Kenny, what's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

[Steve Kenny]

Most humbling is rowing that boat.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

The Sequoia. It's my second run, so I got a little bit of the nerves knocked out last September.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

But to be the guy that Rose Martin Litton's last dory. The Sequoia is hard. Describe. I've been with the dories for 24 years. Oars and Grand Canyon dories. And I cherish tradition and I cherish the. Even the nostalgia of the boats.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And the history. And to have her out here again. And I literally. I think of myself as the caretaker.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

I'm the one that's going to carry her for however long. And being down here this trip, the stress is a little bit off.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

Nowhere a little bit.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And. But man, oh, man.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

But she still knew.

[Steve Kenny]

It's his seat. It's still right there. And anyway. Yeah. Most humbling.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

What about hilarious? Do you have a funny one?

[Steve Kenny]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

As most river guides do.

[Steve Kenny]

We gotta. So I ran the. The wine gourmet trip on the Middle Fork for, I don't know, years and years and years. I'm fond of costumes and wearing costumes.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

You don't say.

[Steve Kenny]

Yes. I love wearing dresses.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And anyway, we do. We do dress for dinner night on the Middle Fork. One of my favorite ever. We were doing a wine gourmet and dressed for dinner. It was the last night and about 10 of the 23 guests, 24 guests were guests I'd had down here in other places. And they showed up with their own costumes.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Nice.

[Steve Kenny]

Because they were ready for dress for dinner.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Nice.

[Steve Kenny]

And we did. We always do a team photograph. And Uli and Ned Perry were there. And man, just. It brings you to tears, the laughter.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

20 plus people all in dresses or costumes.

[Steve Kenny]

Costumes of all sorts. And. And then a big old dinner and then a great wine tasting at the end of it. Yeah. Okay. That's probably my. We did it for years and years, but having those two characters with me is probably the most singular fun thing I've done.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay, well, this is a great way to start because we're hitting nostalgia, we're hitting ooey gooey heart, and we're hitting funny. And that's all the things I want to talk to you about. So let's get into this.

[Steve Kenny]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I have a bit of a ace up my sleeve that I've been hiding.

[Steve Kenny]

You got an ace on your sleeve?

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Up.

[Patty O'Connell]

Up.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

It hidden.

[Steve Kenny]

Just tucked.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Just tucked up. We talked about this when I met you a handful of days ago at the warehouse. That we have a pal in common. Ryan. Howdy Howe.

[Steve Kenny]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

And so before I came down here with you, I texted old Howdy Doody Dandy, and I said, can you give me any of the goods on brother Kenny? And he wrote, steve, Kenny is your standard run of the mill macho man in a tutu or occasionally an elegant gown who can gracefully glide a historic wooden boat through 20 foot waves while reciting poetry that he wrote on approach in the flat water. Yep, just another standard run of the mill macho man Dory guide. Thoughts, feelings, reactions. Is that accurate?

[Steve Kenny]

I don't know if I wrote it before the rap, but probably everything else.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay, so let's talk about how you got into river guiding, because it is not your typical path. You got into it after careers in banking, basketball coaching, and academia. You were a college professor. You have two bachelor's degrees and a master's. Then you gave that all up and have since been guiding and boating for nearly three decades. Now, I'm not trying to fluff your feathers here, but I will say that to me, you seem like a bit of an outlier when it comes to river guides. Do you see yourself like that?

[Steve Kenny]

I think maybe in the beginning, especially where I started, but I mean, it's been so long now that I hopefully feel like I'm part of the thread.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Oh, for sure.

[Steve Kenny]

Part of the fabric. But yeah, it, I, I tell folks when they think, wow, you've had such an eclectic life. And I'm like, well, if you fail at a lot of things, you get to do a lot of things.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yes. Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

So. And I have, I. I have had successes and failures, and it's allowed me to do different things. And definitely this one.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Coming. Coming to guiding 28 years ago was a leap of faith. I stepped off the cliff and. And had some very kind human beings that took care of me more than I actually probably knew back then.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Was that the head of the raft company that invited you onto the Rio Grande?

[Steve Kenny]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

After you went to a. What was it, a wilderness survival camp,

[Steve Kenny]

a desert survival survival.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

And they were helping put it on. Right. And the, the owner of the company said, come serve coffee and do dishes for us for three days. And you said, I don't know about three days. And he said, what's three days for the rest of your life? Is that right?

[Steve Kenny]

Yes. A guy named Greg Hennington at the time owned Texas River Expeditions, and it then has Involved evolved into the far flung outdoor center. And yeah, he came out and gave us a first aid class.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I'm out there sweating bullets at 120 degrees in the Texas desert. And he came, he caught me at the end of the class and he said, hey, man, somebody canceled on this trip. Which that canceling happened like four or five times to get me to where I was in Big Ben. And I said, hey, buddy, I got you. I appreciate you. I did boating as a kid and, and I think after six months of doing a Knowles course and then coming through from Washington state all the way to South Texas, I got my plan. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go home, I'm gonna apply to grad school to go back to get a PhD, and I'm gonna go hike the Appalachian Trail in the spring of 2000. And in the fall of 2000, I'm going back to Austin to UT and get my PhD.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And he looked at me and he said, steve, three days in your life. If you give me three days in your life, I might change your life.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I mean, it's a beautiful sentiment and a beautiful invitation, but I'm wondering how it hooked you, right, because you were on this academia track. And so what was it about the river that circumvented or made more of an emotional appeal and led you away from that track to take the leap of faith?

[Steve Kenny]

Well, at that point, I was much more of a backpacker, a multi day backpacker. And my whole goal after doing this Knowles program and a mountaineering course in Washington State, Olympia Olympic national park, and my whole goal was to do the Appalachian Trail because that's where my family histories is from. And I went through all these serendipitous events over a course of about six, seven months, where I just started listening to what was going to happen the next morning. And I ended up in Big Bend with not a lot of money in my pocket, but I had enough money to get home. And this guy literally just said, man, give me three days. And I'm like, you know what? It's one more adventure, but it's still not going to stop me from where I finally found my program, I think. And then I did it. And then afterwards he gave me a job and I said, yeah, man, I really appreciate it. It was fantastic. But I've still got my program, I

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

got stuff to do.

[Steve Kenny]

And then I went home that winter, living with my mother in Kentucky, and all I could do was talk about these people in this town of a hundred in Terlingua, Texas. Some of them were highly educated, like some PhDs, you know, masters, law degrees. Some of them didn't even get out of grade school. And they were some of the smartest people and they were so congealed together. They were a family of misfits to the outside world. To them, they had found the secret.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Well, so did that kind of community and that kind of welcoming offer you something that the banking, the college coaching, the academia that didn't?

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Were you looking for something that you were hoping that those other career paths were going to give you and then all of a sudden you woke up one day and was like, this path that I'm on is not giving me those things. What were those things?

[Steve Kenny]

Well, it probably weren't giving me those things. And then possibly I was failing at some other things. But to find these people that were so engaged on a daily basis with each other, I was like, this is such a different planet from the path I was born and bred and educated to do.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And honest to gosh, some of the folks who were the brightest and most intelligent were the ones that didn't have the degrees. But these people didn't care. They just wanted you to be you and what can you do for us? And my mother, literally, after years of me being Richie Cunningham on Happy Days, she said, why don't you go hang out with those people?

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I did.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Stop trying to be the buttoned up guy and go be who you are.

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah. Because she was like, you've never been that person.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

Poof. Poof. And okay, so the book is dedicated to them.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And they were some of the most fascinating, intriguing and caring people I have ever met. And they're still. I don't go down as much anymore, but they're still my heart and soul.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I guess one of the things I'm trying to dig at here, I guess, is that like the trajectory you took so seems different than a lot of the guys and gals I know who have become river guides. Right. They were ski bumming and all of a sudden the summer shows up and they're like, you know, spending days on the river is a pretty good way to make some dough, spend some time outside, get back to ski season. But you followed this wildly different path. And what seems to be the keystone there is that river guiding didn't like happen to you. Like you went out and chose it. And so I'm wondering, in the choosing of it, did you have to give up anything of the conventional markers of quote unquote, a More solid or secure

[Steve Kenny]

career path threw it all away. It was like stepping off a cliff.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

What did that feel like? Were you scared or did you feel, like, terrified? Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

Until I realized that the community in Terlingua, I knew that I would be loved and I could love. I would be supported, and I could support, and no matter what happened, I would thrive, and I would help people thrive. And then it went from there. I mean, I'm a long way from Terlingua, Texas, sitting with you here, that Great Wall. But there were a lot of people that got me there.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And some of them, unbeknownst to me, were pushing, corralling me and helping me stay here. Because we have this thing that we call the life below the rim.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

In the beginning, I was an adamant believer that, yeah, dude, this stuff is fairy tale. This is Cinderella Man. Up there is where you got to cut your metal.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And a guy named Larry Meek on the Arkansas river, he checked me out, trained me how to run Class 4 water. And he would have me come over to his house in Salada, Colorado, and have dinner once a week and give me a fresh bed and a. And a shower to take. And he and I would talk about life. And I'm like, larry, this isn't. This isn't life, man.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah. And so he had to convince me. And this is in, like, in 2000.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Summer of 2000. And I was already going back to Texas to go to grad school, And Larry took me on a private Grand Canyon trip.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And he was like, brother, I'm going to show you you can have a successful life and do other things that make you hustle to be here, But I'm going to show you that there is a life below the rim.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Well, Obviously here, now, 25 years later, 25 years into this, you're like, yeah, this is what a great decision that I made. It looks, and it sounds like it has turned out wonderfully for you. But in that moment when you're making the decision, especially after devoting so much time and money and schooling towards these other career paths, was it sad to give it up? Was it? You said it was scary. It was terrifying. Did it feel difficult to give all that up?

[Steve Kenny]

It did until I pushed off from Lee's Ferry, where we pushed off on a private trip with Larry Meek and some dear friends from Salada, Colorado. I didn't even have a boat. I was floating on a boat with a friend of mine named Ben Kidd. And Larry rode up to me right before the buoy, which Is where you can't go any farther downstream. And this big old Irishman reached out this hand the size of a skillet and reached over on the boat I was on and he grabbed my hand. He goes, son, take your glasses off. And I looked over at him, he goes, son, do you know who I am? And this is not flamboyant or boisterous on his part.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

He reached over and grabbed my hand. He said, son, I am the man that's gonna nail the last nail into the coffin that says you never go back. Oh, my God.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Were you shaking in your boots? Were you like.

[Steve Kenny]

I started crying.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Seriously?

[Steve Kenny]

He goes, welcome to the first day of your 21 day trip in the Grand Canyon. Oh, and Larry Meek, who owned Timberwolf Whitewater.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I'm getting teary eyed.

[Steve Kenny]

Sorry. He, along with Greg Hennington, changed my life.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Well, I. I was. My next question is, why was that decision worth it and why does it continue to be worth it? We can skip that one.

[Steve Kenny]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

What does guiding give you that academia, finance, coaching? Never could or never did.

[Steve Kenny]

It gave me back my. I won't say it gave me back my soul because I spent my whole life in basketball.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Either playing or coaching. And I love those years.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

We were talking about 79 Larry Bird just a moment ago off camera.

[Steve Kenny]

I'm a history buff on basketball, you know. And you know what? And I. And as a coach, I. I loved it. I've consumed by it. And it probably consumed me too much.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I was too young to be given the responsibility that I had. And. But at the same time, I still had this in me from living all over the world with my dad and my family. My dad worked in the state department. I lived all over the world.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I grew up boating in Panama before there was white water in Panama.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And. And so I got to come back to it. My. My father was all about the conventional lifestyle and be successful.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And my mother was probably the one because I was my daddy's boy. But my mother was probably the one that finally said, I've seen your highs, I've seen your lows, I've seen your struggle. Sounds like those folks out there in Terlingua, Texas, have found something that connects with you.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Why don't you go see it?

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

God bless.

[Patty O'Connell]

Mama.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Kenny.

[Steve Kenny]

Ma. Kenny.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

So, of course, the allure of being on rivers is. It's beautiful. The white water is super thrilling. We've had some in our first few days here. But you have said a big part of the allure for you is not just the connection to nature, but the human connection that happens on trips and the human transformation. You've described the river trip as an odyssey. Now, that can sound kind of woo woo to a lot of people who don't dabble in the woo. So let's dabble in the woo here.

[Steve Kenny]

Let's dabble in the woo.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

What do you mean by odyssey? Is that a metaphor or is that literal?

[Steve Kenny]

It's both.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay, tell me how.

[Steve Kenny]

Because like, the folks right here.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

They come from all walks of life, all the fluency, all challenges of families and professions. And for me, a lot of it has been about how do we get them to be in the moment.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we had a poetry reading last night.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

We talked about love, laugh and cry.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Steve Kenny]

Every day.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

And that's your. What would you say your life's thesis is to love, laugh and cry every day?

[Steve Kenny]

I try to.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

I try to. And you can find that it's a little bit of an offshoot from Jimmy Valvana in his cancer speech.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Back to basketball.

[Steve Kenny]

It always comes back.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

But, man, trying to help these folks, not to help them, but assist them. And taking some of us from here back up there to the life above the rim, you know, and it might be a connection with a son. It might be a connection with a partner. It might be a connection with your partner that's not on this trip.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And you bring it back to them.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Man, there's so many challenges, especially in this day right now. We are so diversified.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Steve Kenny]

That, man, if we can talk to people about being more simplified and being more heartfelt and caring about our fellow person.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

You know, man or woman. And that for me, is what it's always been. Been about. Yeah. I came into it running dirt bag, low water rivers on the rear. Grand. But there was more rocks and mud. And then I. Then I got to come and run, you know, stuff in Cataract Canyon. That was huge.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And a dear, Dear old friend, ors guide, Sobeck guide David Lyle, told me in 2003, he goes, Steve, the rapids are nothing more than an inconvenience between camps. And he blew my mind because I came for the high water. And he was like, yeah, dude, enjoy the high water.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And then come talk to me.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

It gets scary and high.

[Steve Kenny]

And he was like, kenny, the magic happens between the rapids, no doubt. The flat waters and the camps.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

He goes. He goes, man, if folks show up, accept what they have, help them with it, and then give the Rest to the river in the canyon.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And it'll take care of them.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

What is it about a river trip, and specifically a river trip in the Grand Canyon that facilitates that kind of transformation and human connection that say former backpacker backpacking doesn't do, or a camping trip or skiing at your favorite ski resort? What makes the river trip and the grand like the ultra battery of human connection?

[Steve Kenny]

That's a good question.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Steve Kenny]

It doesn't matter if it's the Grand Canyon. It matters if it's moving water. Because there is something special about moving water.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And for us that fight for and support free flowing rivers and you know, threatened environments and even today with, with what's going on in our lakes and our dams that are threatening the Grand Canyon, the San Juan river is threatened by the Navajo Dam. And the San Juan river is one of my favorite places to be and Great float. It's just, it's an experiential place to be.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Steve Kenny]

It's something about putting people on moving water.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

That I think is intrinsically valuing to your soul and to their souls. And yes, you can get it out of a backpacking trip. But there's something about the, and I, I don't know how else, how else to say it, but there's something about the fluidity of being on moving water.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And it doesn't matter if it's a rapid or if it's just flowing gently. Yeah. It's something about it. I think it's intrinsic.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

To our DNA.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

You think it, it hits a part of your soul maybe that say a ski resort or a backpacking trip maybe can't or has a harder time to get to.

[Steve Kenny]

There's something about being with your friends or partner.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

In a place that is so, you know, intrinsically wild.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I get that, I've done that. But there's something. I'm looking out over the last of the mankarep rapid right here and there's something about moving water.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. I get it. Let's give the woo a little bit more time here because as a English major nerd, I can't help but want to get into Homer's Odyssey because you know, Odysseus has this epic 10 year journey home to Ithaca after the Trojan War. It's a wild adventure testing cunning, his mental, physical, emotional strength and battles with humans, monsters and gods. It's really an exploration of perseverance, identity and the idea of home. So how is that happening down here?

[Steve Kenny]

You want me to compare addition Odyssey to the Grand Canyon. Whoa, baby.

[Patty O'Connell]

Well, you're.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

You're the one who talked about it being an odyssey, brother.

[Steve Kenny]

I gotta dig here. I'm a liberal arts major.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. That's right.

[Steve Kenny]

Let's get it on.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Let's get liberal and artsy.

[Steve Kenny]

My goodness. Man. It's. It starts out for most of these folks and this group of ours is fantastic.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yes. Yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

I agree.

[Steve Kenny]

It starts out as a tourist trip, you know, and. And sometimes we truncate the trip and we have three different trips in one trip. What is one of the blessings and the magic of what's going to happen with this trip? And we're just starting our magic with this trip. We got all of them.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

For the whole way.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we used to do 21 days with all of them.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Back in the day. And you just want to look at them and go, I got this guy and this lady that have something that I need to help them with.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I need folks to soothe into this place.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And. And there's trials and tribulations. I've been at this camp with 50 mile an hour winds coming this way and rain blowing over tables and you have to look at the majesty of it all. Yeah. And you're running big rapids and everything goes fine. And then one of these beautiful fragile little boats turns over and then it's game time.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And so it goes back and forth between. Ah. And then to. It's the real deal. And. And actually having folks see something that requires an issue. We have an issue. We have a boat overturned.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah. And we got to take care of this.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And you watch people step up.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Totally.

[Steve Kenny]

And all of a sudden total strangers are best friends. First light Frank. His buddy Sarge. It's in the poem. I didn't talk about Sarge. First light Frank and Sarge were on the first one of the first river trips together. They did about 15 together because they bonded not on the la la la la la of this place, but they bonded on the hardships of a driving rainstorm or a crazy headwind where the their guides hands are bleeding.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Rowing for every foot.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And so it is an odyssey.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we hope that it all goes kind of smoothly.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

But we're going to have like. We haven't gone in the gorge yet. Knock on wood. We're going to have challenges.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we're going to take care of them because we're with a great group of professionals. But it ain't Disneyland. It ain't. It ain't the log flu.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

No, that's. No, you're not on Pirates of the Caribbean here.

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

So you said something a little bit earlier that I want to go back to because it was really intriguing to me. You said that sometimes a guy or gal will show up and they might have something that you need to help them with. How do you pick up on that and then how do you ease into that? Because you're all the things down here. You're a comedian, you're a historian, you're a philosopher.

[Steve Kenny]

Slightly. Therapist.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

You could be a therapist.

[Steve Kenny]

Try not to be, but yeah, A lot of times it, it comes down to the experience of the core crew, how they've been together and how many trips they've done. Cindale sitting down there right now is. It's. I, I talk about it when I lead trips. It's the finger on the pulse. You got to keep a finger on the pulse. I mean, it's easy for folks that have been down here before and everything's easy. Yeah, it's. It's the odd situation of maybe, maybe it was a wife that brought a husband along that really didn't want to be here.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

He's a Wall street banker or he's a plumber in Sacramento. Yeah. And he's like, I got stuff, man. And people get stressed. And in my book, I talk about it, a lot of times it's dusting off the light bulb to make the light bulb shine or bit more. And sometimes it's like really helping people.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

They are anxiety. They're scared to death. In the rapids, we try to reach everybody, you know.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

So then do you see your job as not just rowing guests safely through rapids and setting up camp and doing the kitchen and the Groover talk and all that? Do you also see it as creating a space on your boat to be a personal container for personal transformation?

[Steve Kenny]

Golly days, dude, that is incredibly descriptive. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, you can teach. I mean, I think you can teach anybody how to row a boat.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

You know, and there are some mighty fine men and women that, that run the Arkansas river in Colorado and the Gauley and their technicians and, and they still do a great job being flamboyant showmen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're down here on a 15 day trip or a 18 day or 21 day trip. There's a whole lot more involved. And I've got some dear, dear friends that are like, Kenny, there's no day. No way. I want to do a 15 hour day. Which it gets longer if something Goes wrong. I don't do a 15 hour day every day for 15 to 21 days. And I'm like, that's what I dig. You know, I dig seeing the light bulb come on. And I dig seeing, you know, a partnership that might be stressed from that life above the rim. And I see it start to jam.

[Patty O'Connell]

More from Grand Canyon river guide and poet Steve Kenny after the break.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

You've said this that you believe that listening is more important than talking as a guide. And to me, that stood out when, when our wonderful researcher Jeanette found that for a little tidbit for me, because I know a lot of guides and they are great talkers because essentially guiding is the entertainment business. I mean, those oars might as well be a stand up comic mic at certain times. So why do you believe that listening is the most important skill that a guide can have?

[Steve Kenny]

Well, one, thank you for saying that because it just reminded me on this trip that I need to do that more.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Oh, I. I think you've been listening pretty good.

[Steve Kenny]

I know, but it is. I mean, we, we are all the men and women, we are showmen and, and some folks are more introverted and they are here to run the river and do a great functional, logistical trip. But we are, we. We are here to listen. And I have to remind myself that I can tell you the greatest stories in the world, and I've told several to Burt standing right over there. But you got to listen because everyone's got a story. And you want to know that story, because then at that point, once I know their story a little bit, then I know where to lean to and what to maybe concentrate on more. And I'm a story. I'm a talker, but I'm also a huge believer in quiet. I'll go once the trip gets rolling. If I've had you on my boat the second time, I will let her flow. It may not say something for an hour, two hours, unless you ask me. And even then I might tell you a short answer and I might say, hey, we're coming into this feature of this section and let's just breathe, folks. But yeah, it's. Everyone is out here to be loved and cared for.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Well, and you've said that you believe that listening helps guests start to strip back the layers of the onion. And I think I get this, but I'm hoping that you might have an example of what that actually looks like. Do you remember a time where you're like, I didn't talk for two hours. And boom. Now Grace has got Something to say about that thing I was picking up on or Billy has something to open up about. Do you have a memory or storyline?

[Steve Kenny]

Now you're putting me on the spot and I love it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

That's the gig.

[Steve Kenny]

That's the gig. That's why it's a podcast.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Had a client, he's a Vietnam vet, lost everybody in his family. Was one of the longest people we've ever taken down the river. Not first light, Frank. And we sat down after doing a hike that he couldn't do. And we're sitting there and the trip leader said, hey, man, why don't you stay with Jim? I said, okay. And we sat with Jim and we sat there together. And he gave me this man in the day. Army Ranger, Delta Force. And he was like, kenny, I could climb that wall over there, rappel off of it. He goes, and now I'm. I'm where I am.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I said, jim, we are here together, brother.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh.

[Steve Kenny]

And we're all going to end it, hopefully in the best way. And I said, man, don't worry about what you can't do. Let's worry about what you can do. And I took him on about six river trips.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And he was one of my. Still 28 years later, he's these top five people and he was tattooed, roses all the way up both arms. And just an amazing, intelligent individual that gave his entire life to that, to our country.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we sat there and I go, buddy, it's okay. He goes, I know it's okay, but it ain't okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I went, I understand, but this is where we are.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And let's do it together. And took him on a couple more trips.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And it was so cool for him to absorb this place and absorb where he was in his life.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And he. I think he got some solace from it and he got some acceptance of it. And that's where I get my jam.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

On this river.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

After 25 years.

[Steve Kenny]

28. I'll correct you, but.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

28.

[Steve Kenny]

28.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Excuse me, 24.

[Steve Kenny]

With or in Grand Canyon.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

That's right. Excuse me. I'm gonna give you those.

[Steve Kenny]

Can we clip that extra.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I'm gonna give you those extra three after.

[Steve Kenny]

It was a hard first three.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

After 28 years, you've surely seen people arrive at the. Put in carrying stuff that they don't need. And I'm not talking about the set of golf clubs or a tuxedo. I'm talking about the things that we don't talk about and our day to Day life, the woulda, shoulda, couldas, the wo is me's, the fears, the scary things, the secrets. What do you think that the river does with that weight, man?

[Steve Kenny]

It breaks it down. And. And some people struggle and they fight it because I don't know the stresses of where they're coming from or whatever the functionalities or dysfunctionalities are in their life, but they're coming with a lot of baggage and our job is to help them shred. You talked about the layers of the onion. When I triple E, that's one of the biggest things I talk about is let's take that onion that is your entire life and let's start pulling back pieces of it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

So the relationship that you build on the river is a two way street. And as much as you are impacting others, they are impacting you. And you've mentioned that two guests with terminal cancer had a particular influence on you. Do you feel comfortable talking about them?

[Steve Kenny]

I mentioned one already, Jim, that did pass away. And he had done more trips than any other client guest we've had. And he had terminal colon cancer and he spit it out like it was just the flu for years. He kept coming back and kept coming back and he. And he finally passed away and he's the one that had the tattoos all up his arms and that I sat with and I took him on several other rivers. Another wonderfully woman named Nancy, she had been on trips with us in the 80s with the dories and she came back for one more and some of the heavy hitters that trained me and I got to work with Bronco and Rondo or two of them, she wanted them on the trip because they had done a trip with her in the late 80s. And she came back and her and her husband Mike, he was a professor at mit and Nancy had terminal cancer. And I mean she had the whole bald head. And we had to help her from the boats to there and oars. Grand Canyon dories decided it was worth it. And Bronco and Rondo were the ones that were with her when they were, you know, in their 30s.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we took her down one of the most amazing experiences. This woman knew her life had a finite ending. Yeah. And she wanted to see the place one more time. And it was a wonderful dory experience. We, we celebrated life every night. It wasn't like, you know, oh gosh, hope she doesn't die on the trip.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

But we celebrated life every, every night. And she died a couple months after the trip. And, and to see the heavy hitters that I was trained with and got to work with Bronco and Rondo and Deli and Roger Dale, the care that they gave her and. And still maintained a normal trip.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

It wasn't like it was Nancy's trip.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And we had wind and we had rain.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Drove that. Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Pulling like crazy. And I realized then I was a baggage boater on that trip. I was not an Adori. And I realized, this is why I do this. Yeah. Is for times like this.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Does an experience like that in a place as special as the grand, on something as special as a river trip, does that teach you something specific about the preciousness of life that you wouldn't otherwise know?

[Steve Kenny]

Oh, completely.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

What is it?

[Steve Kenny]

One of the probably most valuable things I've learned about being down here is how fleeting life is, is. And it has touched my relationships with my friends, my cohorts, my partner, Mary Beth Hansen. And it's like, man, it is so damn fleeting. You know, I turned around the other day, and I was just a baggage.

[Patty O'Connell]

Built one.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

You know, and then all of a sudden, it's 20 some years later, I'm ruin that thing, that beautiful thing.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

The heirloom.

[Steve Kenny]

The heirloom. And, yeah, it has taught me to believe in the present. And I struggle every day. I'm not like some dude that has figured the shit out because I've been down here, you know, for almost 30 years.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

No, I struggle every damn day.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

I struggle in the wind. The wind starts blowing and I start cussing.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Because my old arthritic hands are like, really? I got to turn and pull backwards for two or three hours. Oh, this is gonna suck. But it has taught me that there are some special places that we want to show to people. It just makes it a ton of fun.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

The way that you talk about the impact that the guests have had on you, the way that you talk about the connection to nature, rowing, all of this is very poetic because you aren't just a boatman. You are a bard. You've got a new book, scribblings, poetry from mountains, deserts, and rivers. You've described it as cowboy, river rat, and poetry, which I love. You pay particular attention in the book to this place, the Grand. Why are you trying to inspire people to make the same kind of shift in their life that you did? Are you trying to inspire them to come down here and see the beauty so they can protect it? Are you trying to do all those things?

[Steve Kenny]

You know, I don't want you to come down here and take my job Because I'm getting old. Yeah. And a little long in the tooth, but maybe your children can come. Yes. But your other two points, I want. Yes. You got to come see it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And you got to bring your friends and family.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

You got to go home and literally, it may sound cliche, but you got to write your congressman and your senator. Martin Linton was so adamant on his trips. It was one way through. You weren't coming in at Phantom, you weren't hiking in. He wanted you to come see the entirety of the Grand Canyon. And then he wanted you to hit the headwaters of the Lake Mead. And we're going to hit it 30, 40 miles downstream from where it was.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And he wanted to see what the, the inundation of the dam did to the lower Grand Canyon.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Yes. We want you to be inspired. And it doesn't have to be here. I mean, I have poetry about a bunch of other places.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah. But it's about moving water and, you know, you hope to have free flowing water. The Elwha Dam was blown out in, in Washington State and the very next year they had a salmon run. And, and I don't know if those fish were the great, great granddaughter of the fish that did it before the Elwha Dam. It wasn't a very big dam. It's dam is, you know, 40ft wide. Yeah. I don't know if those fish were related, but the salmon came back.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And, and that's what I want folks to realize. And yes, we need water in the west, but at the same time we have to protect these natural resources. And obviously the formula they have with the Glen Canyon Dam and our problems with Lake Powell and the water levels is something that is a functional problem.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And it's a historic problem that river runners could have told you about.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

20 years ago.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Well, as much as the book focuses on natural splendor and inspires conservation, it also focuses on characters and relationships. Are two of the headings.

[Steve Kenny]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Of your chapters. Let's call them. So I got to know, are you inspired more by place or people in that place?

[Steve Kenny]

I'd like to take the easy way out and say both.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

But it's the people, the, the relationships down here and the relationships I've had on the road.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

A lot of my poetry has come from being in some dilapidated vehicle, going down some dilapidated highway and finding some dilapidated place.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Whether it's a coffee diner in the morning or whether it's the million dollar silver dollar bar in Mullen, Idaho.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

To find the characters, even if I don't come up with the poem off of it. Yeah. For me it is the interpersonal relationships.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

I have my own jam for myself when I'm on the river and in canyons. This one in particular, I have my own jam, but my other jam is finding people off the river and, and feeling them out and having fun with them and then obviously feeling out my guests that are on the river with. Yeah, but it's always about the people.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Is there any difference between the writing life and the guiding life? Are they the same thing or do they come from the same place?

[Steve Kenny]

I think the guiding life gave me the writing life. I mean, I wrote, literally wrote as a elementary school kid. My mother helped me write short stories in elementary school and then I wrote a few poems in college because I went to a liberal arts college. College and got immersed in a lot of different things, but never shared it. Yeah. You know, when, when John Wesley Powell. I'm not ever equating myself to the Powell expedition or the Robert Brewster Stanton expedition, but if you read their journals.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

These guys came down here as scientists and engineers. The farther down they went, from way up above, the more the journals and even the photographs that Stanton took in 1889 became more poetic.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

More descriptive. And it's just what moving water does.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And so my writing became much more prolific once I started doing multi day trips.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Single day trips. Yeah. It's fun. I love it. It's fun, exciting, you know, smash mouth boating. Yeah. But once I got to be out here and extended times, that's where I started to write. And that's where my, my journals started to flow. And the journals flowed into a story, the story flowed into a poem. So it was this place that did it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Do you think that as long as you're boating, you'll be writing? Do you think that you'll ever give up writing?

[Steve Kenny]

God, I hope not. Yeah, I hope not.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Do you think that this place inspires you in a way continually after all these years, that that's part of the reason why you come back is because you come back to find more bits about yourself, more bits about others so that you can write about it?

[Steve Kenny]

Great insight. I think when I stop running, I come from a world of a lot of different places growing up. And I've done a lot of experiences, I got a lot of experience stories to maybe put into poetry. But maybe when I stop running, maybe that's the time when I really start to write

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

one of the many cool things about my job is that I get to talk to people who have jumped ass over tea kettle into their passions. I don't believe that we have to do what we love in order to make our dough. But it sure is impactful to spend as much time as we can doing the things that recharge and light up our hearts. So what would you say to someone right now who's listening or watching, who maybe is in a career they chose for the right reasons, but suspects there's a different life waiting for them somewhere closer to the outdoors?

[Steve Kenny]

That's a hard question because I come from a background. Background where you just don't go willy nilly into. I'm going to be a Outward Bound instructor because you got to take care. Whether it's your, you got a partner, you got a got children, you got to take care. And so you have to realize what am I doing? You got, you got to, you got to literally weigh your pluses and minuses. Absolutely. Find a way to be in the outcome outdoors and, and if you're a 23 year old that right out of college or you're an 18 year old before you've gone to school. Yeah, man. Immerse yourself in it. And I tell a lot of our young guides, man, enjoy this. And if you got enough money to go to Thailand and go climbing in the winter.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Go do it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And if you got enough money to go to the Baja and go surfing, fantastic. But at some point in your mid to late 20s, you got to start taking care of business.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I'm a huge believer in hopefully educating and talking with our younger people about finances and the reality of doing this for a life.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And I figured out a way to do it with a lot of people smarter than me and older than me. That showed me okay. But it's. The times are harder, things are more expensive and yes, you can do it, but what about doing it in a part time situation?

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And the best thing ever you can do is be a teacher.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And have your summers off. Or second best is be someone in the healthcare provider. Be a nurse.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Or a doctor and do your thing and still be down here. That's the way to do it. To be a lifer like me. You're rolling the dice and I figured out how to do it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

But you rolled the dice and you're here now, happy, healthy. And you are crying every day. You're laughing every day and you're loving every day.

[Steve Kenny]

Every day.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

So in your roll of the dice, was it worth it?

[Steve Kenny]

Absolutely, brother. Man, Brother. Man. Absolutely, absolutely.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I'm gonna ask you if you could

[Steve Kenny]

to read which one?

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Because sometimes Someday Never Comes.

[Steve Kenny]

You don't even know the backstory on that one.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Can you tell me the backstory?

[Steve Kenny]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Steve Kenny]

We're gonna go a whole different direction, brother. Okay. Because sometimes Someday Never comes. It's for Frenchie and Karen. Karen is Frenchie's mother. Joshua Tor the whole world knew him as Frenchie. He called himself French. On Hagen. This is a whole nother podcast, bro. And dude, I'm gonna make you cry.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Oh,

[Steve Kenny]

Frenchie, I'm gonna cry. This Frenchie is the guy you're sitting next to on the airplane and you never ever forget him.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

He's the guy you do a river trip with and you name a child after his charisma and his energy was phenomenal. And I brought him to Orsmo lab and then I got him down here. And Frenchie was just this amazing individual and he had such a add. He never did anything that put clients into danger, but he was always the one that wanted to push the envelope. Frenchy. Down below Deer Creek in Flat Water, there were three companies banked at what we call the Patio, the Three Farms. Princeton went up to see some friends that worked for me up at the upper Upper section. And he floated down on somebody's pool toy in the middle of the night and he drowned. He drowned in flat water. The guy was a Class 5 paddle boater becoming a really good guide, really good multi day guide. And he drowned in a barbell. There were so many serendipitous events that occurred before his drowning with me and him and Flagstaff. But I. But I told Frenchie before we went on the trip, I was like, dude, if the shit gets to wherever, you have to make a decision. You say, what would Kenny do? And you do that, dude, you don't do what Frenchie wants to do. And got caught in a burble and it sunk him and he drowned and it crushed me.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I'm sorry.

[Steve Kenny]

So. You asked hard questions, but I love it. Yeah. So, okay, so when, When, So when Karen came to collect. So when Karen came to collect him, she said to me, she goes, kenny, you gotta realize sometime, someday never comes. And for his celebration of life, I wrote this poem. I'll get it together. You're fine.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Steve Kenny]

The poem is about him and his enthusiasm for life. And I swear to God, a couple of them knew him, but he was so infectious. So because sometimes never comes, you live in the way in case tomorrow becomes undone. Days tonight are not like light to dark. Joyous convictions are what will flame your spark. Listen to your flow of your life's currents. Strive to be in the precious present. Because sometimes not Someday never comes. You travel yourself to the high places. You breathe in deeply. All of life's wild places. Take in the world while you're on your walk. Listen more than you think you should talk. Because sometimes never comes. Love, laugh and cry each and every day. Share of yourself in every single way if you can mix infectious enthusiasm into your life. Trying to control your future only brings out your stress and strife. Because sometimes the never comes. No ego involved, just immersed into the experience, the pursuit of knowledge and then tapped into the essence. Be nothing less than completely authentic. Share yourself and be entirely compassionate. Because sometimes never comes. We all must care and cherish ourselves more so we may share and give of ourselves more. For when we are bestowed the final summons, you'll be closer to being ready than to not being done. Because sometimes someday never comes.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Thank you. Can I give you a hug? Thank you.

[Steve Kenny]

You man, oh, man. Thank you. Thank you for that.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Steve Kenny]

Yahoo. Yahoo.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

To the river are you. We'll give you a beat, and then we'll do the final ramble. We'll give ourselves both a beat. I think I might have. Blake, can you. I think I might have knocked his mic off. Can you help out?

[Steve Kenny]

Good little huggy huggy. Thank you, dude. Because you know what? If you don't laugh and love and cry every day. Oh, man, you haven't done your.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Dude.

[Steve Kenny]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Oh, man. Dude.

[Steve Kenny]

Okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

All right.

[Steve Kenny]

All right. Here we go.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

All right. And we're back. It is now time for the final ramble. Yay. One piece of gear. You cannot live without the theracane.

[Steve Kenny]

My. It's called the boatman's girlfriend or the Girlfriend's boatman.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Best outdoor snack every day, all day.

[Steve Kenny]

Bacon.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

And the dinner call. And the dinner call real quick, because I don't want to keep you from dinner or me from dinner. What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

[Steve Kenny]

That was the hardest question I had to think about, and it is. You buy the ticket and you take the ride.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Steve Kenny]

Hunter S. Thompson. If you bought it, you own it.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

And if you don't, it's your problem.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I gotta tell you, brother Kenny. Steve, I've done a lot of interviews in a lot of cool places with a lot of cool people. I think you're setting a new bar, my guy.

[Steve Kenny]

I think you're setting.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Setting a new bar. Thank you very much for this. This was incredibly special for Me.

[Steve Kenny]

Unbelievable.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Steve Kenny]

Unbelievable.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Yeah. Can I give you another hug?

[Steve Kenny]

Big, big man. Big man hug.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Press some navel on me, brother. Dude, that was so great. Thank you.

[Steve Kenny]

Really. Oh, you crushed.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Dude, that was so awesome.

[Steve Kenny]

Yes. Dude, I did not expect that poem.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Oh, I love that poem.

[Steve Kenny]

I know, but I don't read that poem.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

I'm sorry. Thank you for doing it. Thank you, dude. Thank you for making me do it. That was super special.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

Oh my God.

[Steve Kenny]

I tried to come back. I almost like, I can't come back.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

But I was like, bring it. And that was so great. And that, I mean, I've. I've had some people open up big time on the, on the show just in my career. I've been doing this for a long time.

[Steve Kenny]

Yes, you have.

[Interviewer (possibly Patty O'Connell or a co-host)]

And that was, that was a singular and unique experience and thank you very much for sharing it with me. Dude, I'm super, super psyched too. Thank you. Let's eat some food.

[Patty O'Connell]

Let's eat some food. Steve Kenny is a Grand Canyon dory guide, a damn good poet and a hell of a great human who I now consider to be a dear friend. His new book, Poetry from Mountains, Deserts and Rivers is available on ORS website or click on the link in the bio of Scriblin's poetry on Instagram. You should buy it. It is wonderful. And if you'd like to go down river with Steve, which I highly, highly recommend, you should find out more about river tripping with [e-mail] this trip and this podcast would not have been possible without the help of many. Thank you to the entire OARS team for making this dream a reality. Special shout out to Carrie, Ned, Sindel, Uli, Ben, Nick, Devin and Philippe Philop. Thank you to my wife who said yes, you should absolutely go. And to my in laws and extended family for looking after the baby support. And maybe you don't know this, but capturing and backing up and protecting audio and video on a two and a half week river trip with peak temps of 111 degrees is kinda tough. Immense. Immense. Thank you and gratitude to my great pal and our pro camera and sound man plus chief of solar power pelican cases and many, many hard drives, Blake Gordon. You should check out his amazing work on Instagram at Blake Gordon Photography and Visit his website Blake Gordon.com youm can also check out his work by watching the video episode of this podcast which was recorded at camp on a beach of the Colorado river in the Grand Canyon. It is absolutely stunning and I bet it will blow your socks off, watch it and follow us on YouTube at outside podcast1 a quick note. If you dig this show, we would love it if you'd leave us a review wherever you listen to the Outside Podcast. And if you want to do us an extra solid, share the episodes you love with those you love, post it, email it, send it via carrier pigeon to your friends and family. Thank you very much. We appreciate the support. Also, remember that we want to hear from you, so email your pod reactions, Guest Nominations we Whether or not you know the legend of the Grand Canyon, humpback chub sucking and anything else you'd like to tell and or ask us to Outside Podcasts at Outside, Inc. Com. The Outside Podcast is hosted and produced by me, Patty o', Connell, but you can call me Patty O. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard Micah, the only Homer whose odyssey I care about is Simpson Abrams music and sound design by Robbie Carver and booking and research by Jeanette Courts. The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside plus members. Learn about all extra rad benefits and become a member [e-mail] podplus.