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- [00:03]
A
This is the Outside podcast with Patty O.
- [00:12]
B
Skiing, to me, is very similar to trail running. I love skiing.
- [00:16]
A
Hold the phone here. I am a begrudging runner. I love skiing. If somebody's like, who are you? What do you do? I tell them I'm a skier. I don't tell them I'm a trail runner. Skiing, to me has. Has so much of the yippee factor, like in the moment fun. And trail running has a lot of type 2, maybe even type 3 or 4 fun. So explain that, because I'm about to say, how dare you, Abby. How dare you compare these two things.
- [00:42]
B
Well, before I answer that, I want to say to you, how dare you not identify as a trail runner. How dare you? That's rude. You have run 40 miles at once.
- [00:54]
A
I look like a washing machine with a bag of bowling balls inside of it rolling down a trail.
- [01:02]
B
I think you need to redefine your definition of what being a runner is.
- [01:12]
A
If you've listened to this podcast for a while, you know that I have a complicated relationship with running. I do a fair bit of it up to and including a few races like that one ultramarathon I once ran between Crescent Butte and Aspen. But most of my conversations on the topic boil down to a single why does anyone in their right mind run at all? You, dear listener, have almost certainly jogged before. Maybe you've even run a local turkey trot or a 10k or something. So you know the obvious thing, which is that running is hard and time consuming and sweaty and exhausting. Despite these objective truths, more people are running right now than ever before. It began during the COVID pandemic, when gym closures and a general desire to get the hell away from each other led hundreds of thousands of people to lace up. Increasingly, we took not just to the streets, but to the trails as well. And the end of social distancing only accelerated these trends. Run club participation has surged by 59% over the last two years. But why? I can think of 10 things off the top of my head that are more social and more on the nose fun than running. And at least three of them will even give you a decent amount of exercise. To try and understand why running and not, say, darts is having such a massive moment right now, I decided to ask Abby Levine. Abby is a really friggin good runner. She ran cross country and track in high school and did so well that she competed for Princeton as a 5k and 10k specialist as an undergrad, then for CU Boulder as a graduate. That's where she switched to triathlon and picked up an NCAA national championship in the process. A mind expanding Run in the Hills of Boulder one day changed the course of Abby's life. She bailed on triathlon and devoted herself not just to trail running, but to storytelling about the sport and the truly unique community that's undergoing its own explosive growth. Right. Gab is the managing editor of the recently relaunched Trail Runner, a digital and social title that inspires and enables runners of every level to take their running to the woods, hills and mountains. She can tell you everything from how to tailor your street stride for a rocky path to why there's such a proliferation of glitter at trail running events. So why does anyone in their right mind run at all? Well, to hear Abby tell it, every one of us is a born runner, regardless of our size, shape, or ability. And once you realize that, the real question becomes, how can you not run? First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?
- [04:13]
B
I was training for my first ever road marathon. After a decade of running on the trails and ultras, I decided I needed to run a road marathon before I got too old to try to run fast or as fast as I can. And I spent a year training. I decided winter of 2025. So, like new year 2025, okay, I need to buckle down. I need to get serious. And so I joined a running team in Boulder that's focused on the roads. Oh, wow. The whole year building up to this marathon, I was doing shorter races. I hadn't done a race in under 50K for years. I was run 5Ks, 8Ks, 6Ks. They really love their random distance.
- [04:55]
A
Very fun K's, lots of K's.
- [04:58]
B
And this race, it was the California International Marathon CIM first week of December. I found out two days before the race that I had broken the navicular bone in my foot. Everyone kept telling me, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine. And I ran the local Boulder Turkey trot like a week before the race. And as one does, the race went pretty well. But my foot, like two days later, it just blew up, up. I couldn't put weight through it. You've run races before. You're tapering for the race and you're like, I mean, everything just feels wrong. And so everyone's telling me, my coach, my pt, my doctor, they're all like, oh, it's just the tapered tantrums. You're totally fine. You're going to get to race day and you're. And you're going to feel fine. So I'm like gaslighting myself into being like, I feel totally fine.
- [05:43]
A
I don't even have a foot. What are you talking about? I'm totally fine.
- [05:46]
B
Yeah, exactly. Well, long story short, I ended up getting an MRI and I got the results at like 6pm the night before. I was supposed to fly out to California for this race and the navicular was broken. And so instead of running this race, I ended up getting two screws put into my foot.
- [06:01]
A
Oh my God.
- [06:02]
B
Three months of non weight bearing. So knee scooter crutches.
- [06:06]
A
Three months. Oh, no. So here's the thing about running. I feel like when you're training for a race, the goal is to get to the start line with enough training so you can finish the race. But because you're putting so much strain on your body, you're always just kind of like a car falling apart. So you have to temper between like, how, like, can I lose this hubcap and still finish? Can I go bumperless on this? Like, do I need seatbelts and a radio? I don't know. But those are all like organs in your body. So did you just like over train for this?
- [06:45]
B
Well, okay, here's the thing. I think there's a lot of fake marketing in the running world. Everyone says running is for your health and like that can be true.
- [06:53]
A
Sure, it could be helpful, but every runner I know is like, I got this back thing. Oh, my big toe fell off on my last run and I'm just gonna go without it.
- [07:03]
B
Yeah, running is, it's really not for your physical health. I think I do believe it is for your mental health. Yeah, it is. I mean, but then also it can be very compensatory mechanism for hiding from your mental health problems.
- [07:15]
A
This is running all together. It's all the things all at once. I'm so excited to talk about this because. Yes. Yes. Okay.
- [07:23]
B
All right.
- [07:23]
A
Let's get into it. This is going to be fun talking to you because I love talking to accomplished runners for a lot of reasons, but mostly because I am not an accomplished runner and I love hate running. And I'm so curious about the folks who just like, love love running. So with that in mind, Abby, considering you're a lifelong runner, seemingly you love, love running. So why is running your thing?
- [07:52]
B
It's a great question. I want to preface it by saying that I am not the most accomplished runner that you have talked to or will talk to. I just, as you were pointing out, am mildly obsessed with running.
- [08:01]
A
You Got hardware, homegirl, you got, you got podiums. You have done a lot of wonderful things in the running world. Okay, so sure, maybe I'll talk to a cheetah at some point, you know,
- [08:12]
B
like I hope you do, but I can't wait. You.
- [08:15]
A
Yeah, you, you have done the thing right? So why, why is this thing been a lifelong purp.
- [08:20]
B
Pursuit? Yeah, it's a great question. I. So when I started running, I was a year round swimmer. Growing up. As part of our swimming training, we started running and at first I hated it. I cried. That first time we, we ran after swim practice, we ran like two laps around this field. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done. I felt like I weighed a million pounds. The earth was like sucking me in into the inner circles of hell. And I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. And then I think I just like got a little taller or something. So was like in middle school and like suddenly I went from like being very bad at it to suddenly pretty naturally good at it. And that made it a lot more fun. That's how I got into it. It is not at all why I do it now. Now it is my social outlet. Like, there's something so special about working a full time job, but having these couple hours in the morning where you're just running around with your friends at sunrise. Like, what a gift to get to do that. Like this morning we, we had a hard workout and it was really humid here. Like when it's above like 10% humidity in Colorado, it feels really humid. So it felt really humid.
- [09:23]
A
Yes.
- [09:24]
B
I felt like my, my head was exploding on my body, but it was still. It's such a gift to get to go be miserable with your friends before work.
- [09:33]
A
Well, that's an interesting thing that you say your whole life is running and has been running since you were a kid and now you run at an elite level. You also cover running for your job and even you are like, yeah, it's miserable.
- [09:46]
B
Yeah.
- [09:47]
A
So like, why, what is it? What is, is it the, is it the type 2 fun? Is it the afterward fun? Like looking back on the memory? You're like, yeah, I guess that was pretty cool. What about the physical act of running? Like do you enjoy in the moment?
- [10:01]
B
It's all of the above. I think that, okay, like most runners, I have a bit of a masochistic streak in me and I enjoy trying to find that limit. And by enjoy, I'm not enjoying it in the moment, I'm hating it. Like every, every morning I'm like, we're doing a hard workout. I'm like, why do I this? Yeah, in races, like, have you been there in a race where you're like, why did I sign up for this? Like, this is so stupid.
- [10:24]
A
I mean, not just a race. It's pretty much every time I put trail runners on, I'm always like, I tricked myself again. What am I doing?
- [10:30]
B
Yeah, same. I feel the same way, but. But it's something about that is quite addicting. And I think the release you get afterwards from being in such a state of discomfort to feeling so accomplished like that feeling. Feeling is very addicting.
- [10:46]
A
Yes, I get that. I think that though, you know, one of the cool things about running is that you can do backpacking miles. You can get to cool backpacking locales like say an aqua blue alpine lake or some super intense scenic overlook. But running to those spots as opposed to backpacking to those spots, I think is far better because instead of being all sweaty and gross at camp and eating some freeze dried brick of food that always kind of seems to taste like blended up khakis, you can get home for dinner and eat ice cream after a shower. You can do these giant, super intense days, but then you can like eat really delicious food on the couch at home. Is that part of the allure?
- [11:30]
B
I do appreciate how much food is centered for you in running. I agree.
- [11:37]
A
That's just my life, though also, it's extremely motivating.
- [11:40]
B
And yes, I completely agree with that. And. But you're getting to, I think, the multifaceted nature of what makes running, quote unquote, fun. It's the ability to hang out with your friends. It's finding new limits within yourself, pushing yourself further than ever thought you could. Deriving confidence through that. And then it's also exploring the world in new ways. You know, it's so many different things. And yeah, it's different for everyone. And in my job, that's part of what I'm interested in, is why is running so appealing to other people? Like, I know why I love it, but the reasons other people love it is totally different. And that's really cool.
- [12:16]
A
Running has always been present in your life, but how and where you have run has changed. You know, first cross country and track and field, then triathlon, then trail running and ultra running. First east coast, then the mountains of the west. So did these different flavors of jog do different things for you in these different areas?
- [12:38]
B
Definitely, yes. I grew up in New Hampshire. In the summers I'd be doing a little bit of preseason training And I thought it was so boring because I was on these beautiful, pristine dirt roads through the forest, and there were no other people. You would see zero cars, zero runners, zero walkers. And like, what a brat. I was like, this is so boring. I'm all by myself. Yeah.
- [13:03]
A
And now.
- [13:04]
B
Now I can't wait to go home to New Hampshire to go run on those roads. It is.
- [13:09]
A
Yeah, total.
- [13:09]
B
Like, it's being just in silence in the woods in New Hampshire is, like, my happy place. But then there's also the trails in New Hampshire. And anyone who wants to tell you that the west coast trails are harder than the east coast trails is tripping. Because there's just no debate, because there's
- [13:26]
A
no switchbacks, because the CCC was hired to make trails to get everybody out of the Depression. And they just went straight up. They were like, how do you get to that mountain up. There's no switchbacks on the East Coast.
- [13:39]
B
In addition to that, it is incredibly rocky. And, Rudy, New Hampshire is a granite State, and it really lives up to that name. It is all. It's just rocks. And the rocks were not put there in a way designed for foot ergonomics.
- [13:52]
A
No. And instead of going around, the trail builders, the ccc, you know what they did? They put in rebar ladders. They were just like, straight is the only way, so.
- [14:01]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:02]
A
Maybe that masochist street comes from the east coast. Training.
- [14:06]
B
Oh, 100%. And in addition, the really harsh winters, the really hot, humid, buggy summers, like, yes, definitely. There is something to be said for that. And as a matter of fact, I. When I was looking at colleges, I kind of wanted to go to school in California. And my dad told me I couldn't move to California because it would make me soft. Yeah. So it really. It runs deep.
- [14:26]
A
How does running through the woods on the east coast compare to running the trails of the mountain West? Not physically. I'm talking about emotionally. Like, what does it do for you? How is it different? Like, what different state are you in your head and your heart?
- [14:39]
B
I really love that question because it's something I actually think about a lot. And on the east coast, the woods are so dense that it really forces you to look inward. And I find myself being really introspective, both when I'm running on the roads and on the trails there, where the world kind of closes in around you. And I'm very contemplative because it's more humid, the smells are richer, and smell is so evocative of memory. And I have so many memories. Tied to that landscape. So I. I find myself being flooded with memories from childhood when I'm there, too. And every season is different and brings back different elements of my life. So, yeah, I really. I do some of my best thinking when I'm running on the east coast and then out west, where it's so much more open and vast and bright and the sun is just harsh in your eyes. I find myself looking outward and thinking much more about the world around me in, like, a really grand sense. Kind of looking up at the stars at night, like, that's. That same kind of feeling is what I feel running out here.
- [15:41]
A
So it's almost like running out east is like explicating your past, while running out west is like looking towards your future.
- [15:49]
B
That's a good way to put it. Yeah, I like that.
- [15:51]
A
Was there a first trail run after your move to Colorado that sticks out in your mind as the run that hooked you, that really made you want to focus on trail?
- [16:02]
B
Yes. So I was competing as professional triathlete. I'd come out to Colorado for grad school. I ran at CU in grad school, and I kind of came out here knowing I would go back to triathlon after swimming and running. And my dad's a cyclist. I had done triathlons in high school, and so I was competing as a professional. It was going very well. I just won a national championship. One of my best friends from college, Claire Gallagher, who's won the level 100 and lots of other races, we trained together a lot back in the day. That was the year she won Leadville, and I was training for triathlon, and she took me on this run in Boulder. It's called Lion's Lair. It winds its way up the backside of Mount Sanitas, and it's very runnable. The opposite of east coast trails.
- [16:45]
A
Yeah.
- [16:45]
B
It does not take the direct route. It takes the most indirect route possible.
- [16:49]
A
Yeah.
- [16:50]
B
Just very gently winding its way up the backside of this mountain. And I had been living in Boulder for at least four years at this point, and I had never run on any trails like this, and it just blew my mind. I felt like I was Alice in Wonderland and I just fallen down the rabbit hole. Whole new world opened up to me, and I decided right then I was like, I can't do triathlon when this world exists right in my backyard. Like, I have to do this.
- [17:17]
A
Why? Because. Did it hit you in the head, in the heart, differently?
- [17:20]
B
Yeah, it was just. It was such a pure enjoyment of the sport. Triathlon. I also love triathlon. But it's very data driven, it's very regimented. Yes, every workout has a very specific purpose. And after running in college, which also felt like that I just really was craving something a little bit more creative and free flowing and just following where my motivation was taking me and the trails provided that. And in addition to that, I think that was the first time after college that I felt like I was reconnecting with my childhood. Growing up just running around in the woods in New Hampshire. Like it felt, it felt like I was coming home, even though I was in a totally different landscape.
- [18:03]
A
So what is it, a trail run like that or just trail running in general do for you as a runner or just like as someone who generally loves being outside, let's say mountain biking or skiing doesn't?
- [18:17]
B
Well, I mean, skiing absolutely does. Skiing to me is very similar to trail running. I love skiing.
- [18:22]
A
Hold on, hold the phone here. I trail run. I am a begrudging runner. I love skiing. I identify as if somebody's like, who are you? What do you do? I tell them I'm a skier. I don't tell them I'm a trail runner. Skiing to me has so much of the yippee factor, like in the moment, fun and joy, unadulterated joy. And trail running has a lot of type 2, maybe even type 3 or 4 fun. So explain that because I'm about to say, how dare you, Abby. How dare you compare these two things.
- [18:55]
B
Well, before I answer that, I want to say to you, how dare you not identify as a trail runner. How dare you? That's rude.
- [19:04]
A
No one ever is like that. Six foot five, 250 pound dude absolutely runs.
- [19:11]
B
You have run 40 miles at once.
- [19:14]
A
I look like a washing machine with a bag of bowling balls inside of it rolling down a trail. That is how I look.
- [19:23]
B
I think you need to redefine your definition of what being a runner is. To answer your question, I think trail running and skiing intersect in this very precise point of just total release. And it's obviously different because in running it's often you are pushing yourself so hard that you want to throw up, but it's the same feeling of transcendence out of your body when you're skiing down a really steep slope or like through the trees or whatever, it's an out of body experience. And whether it's hours into a trail race or just into a really long run in the mountains, or even just on a short run out your front door where you're looking at a beautiful view, it's that same Feeling to me where you are no longer stuck in your body and it's almost like you're looking down on yourself or you're looking up into the world in a way that you're like, you're free from the captivity of your own corpse and your own mind.
- [20:26]
A
Captivity of your protoplasm skin bag. Yeah, exactly. That's so interesting to me because, like in skiing, I find flow all the time. I'm trying to get into that everythingness and nothingness state as much as I possibly can. And nothing delivers that like a hotter turn. And I feel like with trail running, I am like so much in my body, mostly because my body hurts so bad that it's like really hard to free myself of it. And I don't know. I don't know if I've ever felt like I am alive and free of all this pain that I'm putting myself through. I've surely felt like, swift and smooth, like running with my dogs, like kind of feeling flowy here a little bit. But I never feel free of my body. How do you get there?
- [21:11]
B
I don't think you have to feel good to feel this way.
- [21:15]
A
Oh, what?
- [21:16]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I think it actually comes easier when you feel bad and. Have you ever been on a run?
- [21:25]
A
This is the best. This is running. This is running to a T. Yeah, it doesn't feel good, but it's the best.
- [21:32]
B
Have you ever been running and you're working so hard that the idea of even formulating a thought feels impossible?
- [21:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, literally every time I move past a walk, that is how I feel.
- [21:46]
B
That's part of what I'm talking about.
- [21:48]
A
Okay.
- [21:48]
B
You are. You're free from the inner critic. You're free from like the expectations you're putting on yourself. You're. You're not bored. It's. It's partly that too, where if I. If I'm just sitting here, you know, we're all so addicted to our phones now. If I'm just sitting at my desk. Desk. And I'm not working or whatever, I'm sitting on the couch, I instinctively, I want to reach for my phone. I want to reach for a book.
- [22:11]
A
Sure. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:13]
B
I want to listen to a podcast. I want to be occupying my mind. Yeah, exactly. And when you are so tired on a run that you are perfectly content, I find that that feeling is like very masochistically blissful. I did this 50 mile traverse in New Hampshire a couple years ago and it was at the time, it was the longest run I had Ever done. And so I was planning the whole thing out and. And I had downloaded hours and hours and hours of podcasts, and I was planning on listening to them because I'm like, I'm running by myself. No other people. It's gonna take all day. I ended up listening to zero seconds of anything because I was just so locked in and so focused the entire day. And like, I. I'm always chasing that feeling, and I don't get it. Like, on a. Just an easy run before work generally, but when you're really pushing yourself or you know that you're gonna have a really. Just gonna be a long, hard day, you can lock into that feeling. It feels similar to me in the way that you lock in when you're skiing.
- [23:12]
A
Well, I still think I'm a little confused, but the only way to solve this, I think, is for you to go punish me on the trail somewhere. And then I'm going to be like, hey, let's go skiing for fun. You'll be like, I didn't know outside type could be so smiley. Wow. So many runners. Talk about runners high, which I think is a total and complete myth. But what does it mean joy in running look like for you? Put me into that moment.
- [23:40]
B
I think you can find joy in a lot of different parts of running. If you train yourself up, then your easy paces get faster, and now suddenly, you are having fun on just going on an easy run. It is truly a joyful experience where you're running through the wildflowers, you're looking at the views, you're chatting with your friends. You're truly enjoying the act of being out there again. And it's not every day by any means. But you. You get glimmers of that. Sometimes it's at the end when you're chugging a giant. Right now, it's the middle of the summer, it's so hot. You're chugging a giant spin drift right after your run. Or like, right now, I'm really into those, like, fizzy element or element drinks or chugging something really cold and fizzy at the end. Yeah, it's crossing the finish line and accomplishing something that you never believed that you could.
- [24:28]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [24:28]
B
I mean, that feel. I'm constantly chasing that feeling. And I keep telling myself I'm going to give up competitive running, but that feeling is so addicting and. And not just the finish line, but all of the micro finish lines along the way.
- [24:41]
A
More from runner and managing editor of Trail Runner magazine, Abby Levine. After the break, you are heading up the relaunch of Trail Runner magazine. And you've been part of the run community for years and years and years. So I feel that you have particular hefty insight into this. Trail running is seeing a huge boom right now. There's been a massive spike in participation. There are new brands, there's new shoes, there's tons of gear advancements to make running more fun and just plain easier to get into a pair of sneakers and go. So, Abby, why, why is this very hard, very sweaty sport experiencing such massive growth right now?
- [25:25]
B
I think it's at least partly this post pandemic backlash to everyone being cooped up inside. And I think we can all relate to this where suddenly when the world shut down in 2020 and we were spending a lot more time inside, not hanging out with our friends, not exploring in nature, at least for me, it made me really appreciate those things so much more. Like I no longer was taking them for granted. People are recognizing just the gift that we have of, of the world around us and the opportunity to go explore it under our own power. And I think what's really cool about trail running specifically is it's not just people getting into it to compete. Like, we're seeing that too. Like race registrations are going up, but it's more than that, and especially in the younger generations. I don't want to speak for the people younger than me, but from what I am observing, it seems like Gen Z and younger are really interested in connecting with, with their friends outside and they're turning away from going to the bar after work to running after work. And it's like just a whole new way of, of living, really. This is partly why when people like you say, I'm not a runner. No, you are a runner. It's part of your life, you know, like, and like. And running really is a lifestyle.
- [26:41]
A
Yeah.
- [26:41]
B
Whether you realize it or not. And if you run, you are a runner. Sorry too.
- [26:47]
A
Over the last two years, specifically run club participation has increased by 59% globally. Why? What are these clubs offering that people are eating up?
- [26:57]
B
I think it goes back to what I was talking about, running with my friends before work, community. And I don't know if you've read Robert Putnam's essay from the early 2000s, late 1990s, called Bowling Alone. And this is an old essay. He observed three decades ago how bowling league participation rates were dropping and people used to be hanging out with their friends, doing things like bowling or whatever it may be after work, and they were spending more and more time at home by themselves. And I think we're seeing the backlash to that. After decades of turning inward, we're now collectively realizing as a society, there are so many benefits to actually hanging out with your friends in real life. And running is just one expression of that. And also you're seeing run clubs or weekly runs that are being held at running stores and other real places where there's, there's generally a meal after or a film and, and people are connecting outside of the actual act of running too. Like, running gets you in the door totally, but then you stay for so much more than the actual run.
- [27:59]
A
Yes, it's like this is like you gotta have the trail runners for like the invitation, but the whole point of it is something deeper than actually being sweaty and out of breath.
- [28:09]
B
Exactly.
- [28:13]
A
So something worth digging into here is that the style of running from your youth and your 20s is super stat and data and results. Dr. Now, I'm not suggesting that trail runners don't care or think about their mile times, but I do know plenty of folks who hit the dirt without stat trackers. And I'm wondering if you think that why these folks are getting into the sport is maybe because trail running is like less intense, more fun, focused, or maybe not if solely focused, like fun is allowed in trail running.
- [28:48]
B
Yes, I think that is very true. And two things are happening at the same time where the front end of the sport is professionalizing very rapidly and the fastest runners in trail running are becoming increasingly data driven.
- [29:00]
A
And yes, sure.
- [29:01]
B
For example, training uphill on the treadmill sometimes rather than only on the trails, like that was unheard of 10 years ago when I got into trail running. At the same time, though, I think you're exactly right that trail running lends itself for just a totally free expression of yourself in the sport. And you can do it and you don't have to have a watch. I recommend maybe you bring a map on your phone if you're going out onto the trails.
- [29:25]
A
Sure, sure, that's good.
- [29:26]
B
But it's. When you think about why a lot of people get into road running, it's often they're signing up for a race and then they're training for the race. And in trail running, it's very often the exact opposite where you're getting out on the trails because it's just a way to have fun. And then maybe you do a race race because now you're fit, maybe you don't, you don't. Definitely don't have to. And I love that. I mean, that's a huge reason Why I got into trail running, I was so burnt out looking at my watch and clicking off splits and judging myself every day. And being on the trails where there's so much less room for judgment was just. It reinvigorated my love for the sport. Running still has a long ways to go, I think with inclusivity. And you look at a start line at pretty much any race, it's going to be predominantly white and predominantly male. I always make a joke when I'm on a start line that I'm doing my community service as being a female on the line. That's a completely complete joke. Nice. I like it.
- [30:21]
A
I like it.
- [30:21]
B
So we definitely have a ways to go. And there's obviously too the barrier to entry that trail running. You generally need to be near trails. And I am trying to change that narrative because I. I don't fully believe it's true. For example, we just published a story on trail runner about trail running in New York City. And there's tons of dirt to be found in New York City. And I was in Europe this spring, and you're walking through the old medieval streets there with the stairs and the cobbles. That's so much closer to trail running than it is to road running. In my mind, that is trail running. Trail running is really whatever you want it to be. I don't want to say that it like we've made it and it's super inclusive and everything's great. Like, there's definitely is still work to be done. But if you come to a group run or a start line, people are genuinely really friendly and they want you to be there.
- [31:11]
A
So my brother, my older brother Sean was a very talented track athlete. I have been to a lot of track meets in my life, and you know what I've never seen at a track meet? Glitter glow in the dark costumes, neon face paint, an aid station with a dj and hot off the grill quesadillas. Do you know what I'm saying here? Like, this style of running, trail running sees serious, serious mileage, serious vert, all sorts of bonkers crushing weather. These are incredible athletes doing incredible endurance feats. But to me, they do not seem to take themselves seriously, whereas other runners do. Is that the keystone of the invitation in for so many folks right now that there's like less bravado, less chest puffery?
- [32:02]
B
I love that you made that observation because that tension between taking your sport very seriously, but also recognizing that it is so incredibly goofy and that we're only doing it for fun, that's what I'm interested in that is the whole point to me. And those two things can be true at once where you can run really seriously. You can wake up at 5 o' clock in the morning to get your miles in before work, you're going to bed early to get enough, enough sleep and at the same time you're doing your 100 mile race in a jester costume. We literally just published a story yesterday about this guy who races as the jester. He's done 300100 mile races that I just, I love that because I think it really, it's so emblematic of what it is to be human where we're all trying to grapple with so many different things at once and express different parts of our personalities at once and fulfill different needs that we have. And trail running kind of does it all where yes, you can try to push yourself to the limits of human potential and you can also have a really fun time. And the two are not mutually exclusive.
- [33:10]
A
Well, and that's what I'm really trying to dig at here because that's a culture thing, right. And community sets the culture. So what is it about the trail running community that sets them apart in the overall run community and just the at generally like what sets them apart from other communities in the outdoors?
- [33:26]
B
I think it gets back to it being hard. And when you do hard things, it really strips you down and there isn't room for pretense or putting on airs trying to be somebody that you're not. It lends for a really true expression of yourself. And I think we're all just children running around in adult bodies. And like, when it really comes down to it, like we want to have a good time, you know, we, we want to have fun and we want to get back to that inner child within all of us. And yeah, and trail running just leans into it in a way that again, because you're so worn down, you have no other option but to do that and also to get through really hard things. How do you do that? It's by making it fun.
- [34:06]
A
You've got to. Humor, goofiness. It's not just like a social lubricant. It also frees you of the oxen yoke of physical pain, emotional pain, spiritual pain. Like it takes it off of you. And also there are people there who can deploy that to take it off the, the group. And that's one of the things that I love about running, is that it is inherently hard. And when you're in a group, you can be that person for someone else. But it's, it's a two way street, you know it's going to happen for you as well.
- [34:38]
B
Exactly. And again, Patti, this is why you're a runner, because you're so funny. It's in you. You have all of the skill sets.
- [34:44]
A
That's my community service is going out there and breathing like an asthmatic elk in a group of people. Great.
- [34:49]
B
And I think that's part of what troning is too, is that it really is so inclusive where no pace is too slow, no personality is the wrong personality. And there are so many skill sets needed that you can work on and improve on and that will help you be good at it. That. But it really is welcoming for everyone because you might not be the fastest, but you might be really stubborn or you might be really strong or you might have an iron stomach and you can just keep eating. And a lot of ultra running is just an eating contest.
- [35:24]
A
If someone at home is listening and wondering if they should maybe, just maybe go out and buy a pair of runners, but they're kind of hemming and hawing about it. They don't know about the pain, they don't know about the commute community. They don't know if this is really for them. What would you tell them? What is waiting for them out there on the trail and within the trail running community?
- [35:47]
B
Playing in the sandbox. If you miss recess from elementary school, I think you should put on a pair of running shoes. You don't have to go run. You can just walk out your door. And maybe if it's uphill, you're gonna find that it's gonna, it's gonna feel maybe a little hard. Hard. And that is trail running. And I think it's really important to clarify that you do not actually need to run to be a trail runner. A lot of trail running is hiking.
- [36:12]
A
Oh, I love that. Yeah, totally. Power hiking, which is just hiking, which
- [36:16]
B
is just a fancy word for hiking.
- [36:18]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [36:19]
B
It's the same thing.
- [36:20]
A
It's the same thing.
- [36:21]
B
For those wondering. I think also one thing I'm trying to do with trail runner is. And again, this gets back to how people are so averse to wanting to call themselves a trailer runner. I hear this so often. Oh, oh, I, I run, but I'm not a runner. You are a runner. And I, I'm trying to dismantle this preconception that people have. Like, people put being a runner on a pedestal. No, like think about when you were in high school, the people that got into running. It was all of us who weren't athletic enough to go do a real sport like running. There's no heirs around is the most unassuming thing that you can do.
- [36:58]
A
Come on, come out on the trail. Be unathletic with the rest of us.
- [37:03]
B
We're all capable of so much more than we think. And you're selling yourself short if you've decided before you've even tried it that you can't do it and that it's not for you. And I very fervently believe that it's for everyone.
- [37:19]
A
It is now time for the final ramble. Abby. One piece of gear you cannot live without.
- [37:25]
B
Okay, I'm gonna give you an answer you're probably not going to expect.
- [37:29]
A
That's why we ask.
- [37:29]
B
It is my eight sleep mattress cooler. I genuinely. It's a mattress topper you put on top of your mattress and it's dual controlled, so either side of the bed you can control it separately. It can go cold and it can go hot. And I do not have air conditioning. And it has been about 100 degrees here in Boulder for the last couple weeks. And I genuinely believe I would be dead right now if I did not have this thing on my bed. I sound like I'm giving you an advertisement, but I genuinely believe in this thing so strongly. Not being paid to tell you this so you can set it so when you go to bed it's at like one setting and then when you fall asleep, it knows when you fall asleep it then you can have it to another setting. And then like an hour before you wake up, it goes to another setting. And then also it's smart enough where if you're shifting around and stuff at night, it will like micro control itself to like help you regulate your body temperature.
- [38:20]
A
This sounds perfect for me as well because my wife life, it runs so cold and I am a pot belly stove right now. You could cook a frittata in my pants that I'm wearing right now. Maybe that's too much information. Sorry. But I love this thing. I love what you're saying to me.
- [38:38]
B
It's not go where I thought it was going to in the best way. Yeah.
- [38:43]
A
You know what I have to do in the. In the summers, as long as we're getting weird and gross, I put my boxers in the freezer and I give myself away. That's what I do.
- [38:50]
B
Oh, that's genius.
- [38:51]
A
I actually don't do that. But I'm thinking about it now because
- [38:54]
B
you might not have to do that if you get one of These. Yeah, this.
- [38:58]
A
I love this thing though. This is great. Okay, best outdoor snack.
- [39:02]
B
I'm gonna go with an Orangina. Oh, the soda.
- [39:05]
A
Talk about nostalgia. I have so many vivid memories of Orangina at the pool that I grew up at. Same going to in the summers. That weird goofy glass bottle. Oh my God. I. I can taste. I can taste it in my mouth. And I've never wanted a specific drink so badly before in my life. Right now. I haven't had an Orgina in decades. Abby, you're blowing my mind, my sleep and my taste buds are so thankful for this conversation. This is great. God, love it. What is. What is your hottest outdoor hot take?
- [39:44]
B
Oh, I mean, I feel like I've already given it to you, which is that if you run, you are a runner whether you like it or not. I'm so sorry to break the news to you. Boom. But I could probably give you a hotter one if you want a hotter one.
- [39:57]
A
I mean. No, I think that's good because like, I think prior to this conversation I would not self identify as a runner. And I think you've convinced me, which I'm upset about.
- [40:13]
B
My job here is done.
- [40:21]
A
Abby Levine is the Managing editor of Trail Runner magazine. She is also a decorated and very talented runner of all sorts of distances based in Boulder, Colorado. Check out her writing and running on Instagram @aplevine. And if you like dirt, fun, hyper colored outfits and sweating and breathing heavily before devouring a giant trailhead snack, then you need to check out the new revamped Trail Runner magazine. Trail Runner is the home for folks who love all things running. Everything from new fun run workouts to how to push longer distances to just trying to spend more time outside gear, training, travel, culture and community. Trail Runner's got your back. Urgent your feet. Check it out@trailrunnermag.com and don't forget to check out video episodes of this show and follow us on YouTube @OutsidePodcast1 where words become pictures, like some kind of movie projected from a mouth. And a quick note, if you dig this show, we'd love it if you'd leave us a review wherever you listen to the Outside podcast. And if you want to do us an extra solid, share the episodes you love with those you love, love. Post it, email it, send it via carrier pigeon to your friends and family. Thank you. We appreciate the support. Also, remember that we want to hear from you. So email your pod reactions, guest nominations and the show tune that gets stuck in your head every time you run and anything else you want to tell and or ask us too. Outside podcast@outside inc.com the Outside podcast is hosted and produced by me, Patty O', Connell, but you can call me Patio. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard Micah. The only reason I run is so I have an excuse to talk about nipple chafing. Abrams music and sound design by Robbie Carver and booking and research by Jeanette Courts. The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside plus members. Learn about all the extra RAD benefits and become a member yourself@outsideonline.com podplus.