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Outside Sales Talk
Finding Success with a Sales Mentor - Outside Sales Talk with Tim J.M. Rohrer
00:47:47
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- [00:00]
A
The mentee sets the goals. What is it that you want to achieve? So a good mentor will be asking you questions like, hey, what is it you're trying to do? What is it you're trying to achieve? How do you see yourself in the future? You know, what, what is it that you want? And when a person is able to quantify or explain or paint a picture of what they want, then the coach will say, well, how then how are you going to do that?
- [00:26]
B
This is Outside Sales Talk, the best podcast for outside salespeople. I'm your host, Steve Benson and we're here to chat with the world's top sales experts so that you can get their best sales tactics to level up your game. Welcome back to Outside Sales Talk. Today I've got Tim JM Aurora here with me and we're going to talk about finding success with a sales mentor. Tim, thanks for joining us today.
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A
Thanks for having me on the show, Steve. It's great to be here.
- [00:59]
B
Awesome. Well, just by way of introduction, Tim is an award winning sales Director with over 25 years of experience in sales and sales management. He dedicates himself to coaching and mentoring salespeople and sales leaders, as well as consulting and providing training to sales organizations. He is the author of the book Sales Lessons of the world's greatest mentor, Secrets of a sales winner that will help you become wildly successful in sales. That's right. So I like it. Tim, let's jump into it. You know, for salespeople looking to achieve success, how can finding a good mentor help help them reach their goals?
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A
Well, think of a mentor as a coach and any great player still needs a great coach in order to maximize his talents and skills. And so a mentor can help a salesperson by just guiding them down the right path and, you know, giving them some wisdom once in a while and nudging them back towards the things that they know are going to work better for that person and maybe every once in a while taking them off to the side and saying, you're doing it wrong, you know.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
We, we all, we all need someone.
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B
To tell us we're doing it wrong sometimes.
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A
Every once in a while, yes. And how do you, how do you.
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B
Get there with someone? How do you as a salesperson go about or as anyone, I mean, but especially as a salesperson, how do you go about, go about finding a good mentor?
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A
I think the first criteria you're looking for is somebody who has some experience and wisdom in your field. You know, that's got to be number one because you're going to be asking them questions about what's going on with your day to day. And if they're unfamiliar with what you do, I don't, I don't think that's going to be your best choice for a mentor. And once you've identified some of those people, then what you're really looking for is somebody with empathy, know empathetic skills and a person who's a good listener. Because I think the number one trait of a, of a strong mentor is their ability to listen carefully to what it is that's going on with you.
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B
And how do you tell if someone's empathetic as a, as a salesperson? How do you, I guess you can tell if someone's a good listener or not, but how do you, how do you feel that out?
- [03:28]
A
Yeah, you know, that can be tricky, but I think that we've all had relationships with people where we get the feeling that the relationship is more about them than it is about you. You know, that's a person who's really not, not the mentor you're looking for. That's not the empathetic skill that you really need in a mentor. But so you see it, you recognize it when, when you see it, a person who, who believes that your goals and your aspirations supersede their own. And that's how they act when they're around you. And that's, that's what you're really looking for. Person who supports you for the sake of supporting you, not because supporting you benefits them in any way whatsoever.
- [04:10]
B
So we're looking for givers. When we're, when we're looking for givers.
- [04:14]
A
We are, we're looking for givers. You know, we're looking for parents, we're looking for coaches. You know, we're looking for that coach who in the post game press conference says, I want to call out how great my players were today, you know, and if they lose, he wants to call out the fact that he wasn't quite up to the task. You know, he let his players down. That's the person you're looking for, right?
- [04:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. And I guess, you know, you've, you've written extensively and, and speak a lot about mentorship and mentors and they're, how important they are. Did. Was the origin story here that you had a fantastic mentor that had a really positive impact on your career or if you've been a mentor many times or how did this kind of come about?
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A
Yeah, the origin story of the book is that I had a mentor early on. In my sales broadcast career. I was in radio advertising sales for a long time. And when I first started, I ran into a fellow named Dick Harlow. He was my first general manager at my radio station and he was an empathetic listener and I needed that because I was, I was brand new to the business. I didn't know what I was doing, but I may have also been overconfident in my skills. And so I took a couple of really hard falls and it was great that Dick was there to tell me that that was okay, you know, to keep on going forward and to maybe give me some advice about some of the missteps not, not to make again in the future. So, yeah, I mean, I was just really lucky that I found a mentor at the beginning of my career, you know, and I think ideally that's when you really need a good men at the beginning.
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B
And I mean, I guess that's the most natural mentor is also your, your sales manager, who's by nature your coach. They're aligned with you. It's not just that they're giving to you because they're giving, but it's also their job.
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A
How do you.
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B
Right, so I guess that's a very logical one. If you're leading an organization. How do you hire for managers that are going to be great mentors?
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A
I think there are some, I think there's some interview questions you can ask. You know, I'm a big fan of, of tests like disc D, I S C. These sorts of, I don't want to call them personality tests. They're more behavioral predictor tests. They can really give you an indication of what drives somebody's behaviors. And if you're looking for certain types of behaviors, you can really find them by, by giving these tests in advance to people. So if you're purposely trying to h sales manager, I do think you want to try to hire somebody who's going to be a good coach. Not everybody is going to sync with everybody on the team. You know, there's going to be some of those relationships that are not perfect. But for the most part, if you have a choice, when you hire a sales manager, I think you should be hiring for somebody with coaching skills.
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B
And what, what makes someone a great coach or a great mentor. Like you talked about yours, you know, noticing when you stumbled and, and pointing out, you know, having the expertise and ability to point out what, what you were doing, what you could do better. What do you think that what makes someone able to do that? Is it, is it experience? Is it expertise? Is It a curious mind. What. What, What. What are the. What makes them great? What makes someone great at being a mentor?
- [07:53]
A
I think that what they all have in common is that they have the long view in mind. Right. So everybody wants to make their month or make their quarter. But I think the really great managers, the ones who are terrific mentors, they see it as a long game where you want to make the year or you want to set somebody up for success in their career, you know, or ideally, you want somebody to be successful at life, and work is just a part of that. And so if you find somebody with those sorts of. That sort of mentality, right. And the skill to look beyond the day to day, then I think you've really got something special.
- [08:38]
B
And in your book, one of the most valuable lessons I think, that your mentor gave you was he showed you how to, what you say, write your own kayak.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Can you tell us about that lesson and how that went down?
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A
So I got off to a pretty good start early on. You know, I got a couple of really nice wins, and I was on a high. And then I hit what I think may have been a sophomore slump. All of a sudden, you know, people were not buying from me, and it was. It was going poorly. And so I reached out to Dick and I said, hey, I really need you. You know, I left him a voicemail. I didn't get a return phone call. I dropped by his office, and he was on the phone, and he just wasn't as available to me as he had been. And I was getting quite a bit irritated with Dick, to tell you the truth. You know, I was like, you know, I need you right now. And so I ran into him on the stairs leading up to the office. He was coming down with another sales rep, and I was going up, and he says, hey, Timmy, I know you've been trying to get a hold of me. And Dick was only the second adult male that ever called me Timmy, by the way. The first was my father. And for whatever reason, I didn't. I didn't mind it so much with Dick. So he's like, timmy, I know you've been trying to get a hold of me. He says, but, you know, I've been super busy, and I'm sorry, I'm just not as available as I have been. And I said, well, that's. That's. That's just not great, Dick. Frankly, you know, I'm having a hard time here. And I was being quite insolent, frankly. And, you know, I would not have been Surprised if Dick had lost his temper with me. But he didn't. He said, listen, I'm the general manager of the whole radio station. I've got a promotions department, I've got a programming department, I've got a sales department. You know, I've got 20, 25 people who need my time, just like you need my time. He says, so I, I'm not always going to be available for you, and, you know, it's just something you're going to have to understand. And he says, hey, did you watch the Olympics this summer? This was in 1992, so the 1992 Summer Olympic Games. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw the Olympics. It's amazing. And he said, no, I want to, I want to talk about the kayakers. He says, you know, they build this man made river out of concrete and then these, these giant boulders, and they, and then they rush hundreds of thousands of gallons of water down this, this chute, right? And they create all these rapids. And then these kayakers get in there with these little boats and they've got to somehow go around the bo boulders and they set up these flags. They suspend the flags over the top of the course. They have to go around the flags and they go downstream and they go. And then they turn around, they go back upstream. He says it's incredible because every once in a while what happens is a kayaker flips upside down and now they're racing downstream, probably banging their heads against boulders. And you know for certain that somebody is going to die in this competition. He said, but there's nothing anybody can do because they're on the sidelines next to this raging river. Nobody can dive in. That's not going to work. He says, so you're, while you're watching, certain that you're witnessing this tragedy. The kayaker flips himself upright, and then he keeps going. He goes back upstream, he goes around the flag that he missed, and then he keeps on going down the course. He says, that's what salespeople have to do. You're going to run into rough water, you are going to flip your kayak upside down, and there are going to be times when you feel like you are drowning. He says, and nobody will be there to help you, including me. And you have to learn how to write your own kayak and get back on course. And with that, he jumped into the car with Tommy Glover and went out to make sales calls with him. Well, I was like, wow.
- [12:32]
B
Well, I'll try not to drown, right?
- [12:36]
A
Thanks, Dick. But you Know, I was not. I. I was not ready to hear that lesson, but the fact is, I needed that one, right, Because I was spending way too much time relying on Dick and Dick's advice and Dick's wisdom. And Dick, of course, still wanted to be there for me, but he wanted to be there less for me than he was at the very beginning. And that's also something that you'll notice with a good coach, right, is they spend a lot of time with you in the beginning, and then they want you to do some of the things they taught you on your own and demonstrate that you've learned and that you can handle it. And, you know, writing your own kayak is. Is a critical sales skill.
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B
Makes sense to me. Another thing you talked about was.
- [13:24]
A
The.
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B
Hard sales truth, that time kills deals. Talk about how you learn that and how sellers can, I guess, keep things moving fast to stop time from killing their deals.
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A
Yeah, boy. I mean, that is the truth. I was out prospecting. So back in the day in radio advertising sales, we would leave the radio station in the morning and we would go out and we would see our existing customers, and then we would do prospecting around those existing customers, you know, like. Like what a lot of field sales people are still doing today. And so I was out there prospecting, and I popped into a Sherwin Williams paint store, and there was a guy up on a ladder stocking paint. And I looked around, There was nobody else in the store, so I figured that he was the owner. And he calls from the ladder, he says, hey, how can I help you? And I said, I love your store. And he says, ah, thanks so much. And he comes down off the ladder, introduces himself as Bill. And I said, bill, my name is tim. I'm with magic 96 radio. And I'm out talking to some of my customers, and I'm also prospecting for new ones. We help small businesses like yours in Charlotte grow their business through effective radio advertising. Do you have a few minutes to talk about that? Back in 1992, people actually did have time to talk about that. You know, it's like, good luck with that approach today, right? In 2023, you need to know about everything there is to know about somebody's business before you walk in. But 30 years ago, people were open to educating you about their business because this was pre Google. And so I talked to the guy for a while about radio advertising. I talked to him about some of the people that I'd been helping in his area. And he says, you know what? Work me up something for 2,500 bucks. I was like, great. I said, I can build you an effective advertising schedule for $2,500. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go back to the radio station. I'm going to get all the big brains at the radio station together. We're going to talk about your store, all the things I learned today. We're going to come up with some great messaging ideas, and I'm going to put together, you know, a really terrific advertising schedule. And then I'm going to come back out here, say, two, three days from now, and tell you all about it and sign you up. And he's like, that's great. I'll see you on Friday. And I said, perfect, because that was Tuesday. The next day, I had not gathered any of the big brains together at the radio station because this was a $2,500 advertising schedule. I did these all the time. So I put together a. A really simple schedule for the guy and a couple of ideas for messages. And then I was just waiting around for Friday to happen. And Dick came by the sales bullpen on Wednesday and asked me what I was up to. And I told him I was getting ready to head out to see a couple of my clients and do some more prospecting, but that I had this great meeting set up with Sherwin Williams. And he says, well, when is it? And I said, it's. It's Friday. And he's like. And I didn't know what I was supposed to be reading into that. And Dick didn't elaborate. He was off, heading off to the programming department to talk to them about something. So he disappears, and I go about my business. And on Friday, I go back to the Sherwin Williams store. And as before, you know, I walk in, and Bill comes out the back door, out of the back office, and he's wiping his hands. I guess he'd been mixing paint or something that paint store people do, right? And he's looking over my shoulder like this. And I was like, wow, it looks like he's looking for somebody better. Better than me. And I. Hey, Bill, is Tim with Magic 96. You remember we talked about an advertising schedule? I'm here to show it to you and get you all signed up. And he says, oh, Tim, geez. You know, the day after you left, my hot water heater broke. And I was. I was hoping you were the plumber, because he's supposed to be coming in today to fix this thing, and that $2,500 I was going to spend with you. I've got to spend to fix this hot water heater. There's just no way around it. I was like, oh, well, you know, that is, that is unfortunate, but let's just go ahead and schedule you for next month. And he says, I don't know, let's just put a pin in it for now. We can revisit it at a later time. And just really concerned about this hot water heater and how much it's going to cost me. And so let's just put a pin in it. I was devastated, blown away by how this turn of events happened, right? I get back to the station and, and like five o' clock rolls around and Dick comes back from whatever he was doing and comes by my desk. You could see that I was looking down and he asked me if I drank some milk that had expired or something. And I said no. I said, the Sherwin Williams deal blew up. And he said, why? And I told him and he says, he says, timmy, time kills deals. You should have closed that thing up on Tuesday when he said he was ready to buy. And I said, but Dick, how am I going to do that? You told us every deal is customized. We don't sell packages, right? So I couldn't whip out the package of the day. I told the guy, we customize all our solutions and I get the big brains together. And he says, yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, but sometimes you need to give the illusion of customization for these smaller customers. I said, the illusion of customization? He says, yeah. He says, A $2,500 customer is a modest size customer. Now if somebody has said to you, if you were talking to the Chevrolet dealer and he says he wants to spend 20,000amonth for the next year, well, now you're going to need a promotion, you're going to need on air giveaways, you're going to need remote broadcast at his location. You're going to need, you know, seven or eight or ten different messages over the course of the year. Now you need all the big brains at the station, he says, but a local guy who's got $2,500 to spend. He says, you know what a 2500 schedule looks like? So here's what you do. Next time, go ahead and put into your briefcase a template for a fifteen hundred dollar schedule, a $2,500 schedule and a $5,000 schedule. He says, almost all the people you call on are going to be in one of those categories or right around there. He says, then when somebody says, hey, work me up something, something for $2,500, you say to them, all of our plans are customized because we want to make sure that it's exactly right for you. But I was just working on a 2500 dollar plan for a guy down the street and I can't tell you who it is because of privacy reasons, but I do have a schedule here and we can take a look at it. And then what? You pull out your 20$500 template. The name is redacted across the top, right? And you say, for 20$500, this is about what you could expect to get on our air. And, and then you sit down with the person, you explain, these are the morning spots and the midday spots and you can talk about your station. And if he thinks for whatever reason he should have more afternoon than morning, you can cross out, you can add, you can move some things around, and at the end you've got something he likes, he signs it. You promise to bring back a more formal agreement later, after you've entered it into your system at the station. But now you've got an agreement and you've got the next steps. And the next steps in this case were write the commercial and bring back some sample sound, you know, and so Dick says, yeah, you know, you just have to be smart about the amount of time that elapses between somebody says yes and you getting them to sign the deal.
- [20:54]
B
You never know when the water heater is going to blow. It's an important lesson for all of.
- [20:58]
A
Us, you know, and I told Dick, I said that was just bad luck. He said, no, no, no, he said that was predictable. He says, because one day it's a hot water heater, the next day their wife had an accident and now they have to take three days off of work and you know, or some other thing happens or they're at a cocktail party and somebody says radio advertising doesn't work and they get cold feet. He says, there's always something. This just this time it was a hot water heater. But it's always something and it's predictable.
- [21:27]
B
Makes sense.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And well, related to that, I mean, in your book you mentioned that customers buy for emotional reasons. Right. So how do you, how can a seller delve into those emotions and, and leverage that to better, to win more sales?
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A
Well, I like to call these emotional instigators. People do buy for emotional reasons and then they try to justify it logically. You know, I, I had to buy that Porsche because it's a good investment. You know, or I had to pay $90,000 for the Volvo because it's the safest car on the road, right? You bought it because that's what moved you. You know, you loved it, you really liked it. But then later on, you tell people that there was a logical reason why you had to do it. So, as sellers, what we want to do is we want to create emotional instigators. We want to paint a picture of an optimistic future so people can. Can feel it, right? They can buy into it. So, for example, if you're. If you call on restaurants, right, you might say something like, hey, how would it feel if your restaurant was full every single Friday and Saturday night? Somebody who owns a restaurant would be like, oh, man, could you imagine? All my waiters and waitresses would be happy. The guys in the kitchen would be thrilled because we would just be cranking out stuff. It'd be so much easier to order food and inventory because we know how much we were using. We could keep it fresh. And then you'd have that buzz, you know, in the restaurant that you get when. When people are there and it's fun and it's engaging, and so they're like, they're convincing themselves. Whatever it is that you're selling, that's going to allow me to enjoy that optimistic future, I want to have that, right? And so salespeople need to come up with emotional instigators. I. I take golf lessons, for example, and I tell the guys at golftac, I said, you need to ask questions that stir up the emotions of your potential students. And they're like, well, like what? I'm like, well, how great would it feel if you were to get out of a bunker in one shot every single time? Well, if you're a golfer, that's like, oh, yes. I can't even tell you the number of times that I hit a sand shot and it rolls back down to my feet, right? And you want to break your clubs and throw them in a lake or something. So if you can. If you can, like, paint this picture that. No, no, that doesn't have to happen. You can get out of a bunker and one shot every time. I can teach you. The students will pay any kind of money to do that, right? Or, like, how great would it feel to never three putt again? Well, that. That would be amazing, right? Hey, what would it. What would it be like if you could play the entire round with just one ball? That's possible. Like, people do that. So these are the sort of emotional instigators you want to. To be asking so that people can start to envision, what might that be? Like, like, could I have that future? And yeah, you could have that future if you do this next step, which is to buy something from me, a.
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B
Service or a product. What role does goal setting play in all this? And just in general, how does a mentor help you as a salesperson, set your goals?
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A
So the thing about a mentor that people have to be aware of is that the mentor doesn't set the goals, right? The student, the mentee, sets the goals. What is it that you want to achieve? So a good mentor will be asking you questions like, hey, what is it you're trying to do? What is it you're trying to achieve? How do you see yourself in the future? You know, what, what is it that you want? And when a person is able to quantify or explain or paint a picture of what they want, then the coach will say, well, how then how are you going to do that? And ultimately, the person, the mentee, is going to have to set up a series of goals in order to accomplish this, this future that they've envisioned for themselves and that they've been able to explain to their mentor. So what the mentor does is holds you accountable, right? They don't. They don't set the goals. They hold you accountable.
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B
How do they hold you accountable? What is the. I mean, I know how to. How a sales manager holds you accountable, but in, in this type of relationship, assuming it's not your manager, how do they. How. How is that accountability play out?
- [26:19]
A
Yeah, well, they ask you questions, you know, so, for example, if I'm a basketball player and I say I want to get better at shooting free throws, my mentor, my coach would say, okay, well, how would you go about doing that? And I said, well, one thing I could do, I guess, is at the end of practice, I could shoot a hundred free throws and keep track of how many I made. And over the course of time, I'll see, you know, whether or not I'm improving. Okay, and when are you going to start doing that? I'm going to start doing that today. Okay, so today after practice, I'll see you shooting 100 free throws. Yes. Okay. And so then at the end of practice, I just leave, right? I don't do the 100 free throws. So the next day my mentor would say, hey, I, I remember you told me your goal was to get better at free throws. And you also said that your plan was to shoot 100 free throws after practice every day. But Yesterday I noticed that you didn't shoot any free throws after practice. So did your goal change? And that's how they hold a mentee accountable. They ask you. I noticed that your behavior doesn't match the goal or the outcome that you're seeking. Did your goal change? And that's, you know, that's a punch in the gut. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm still 100% committed to getting better at free throws. Okay. Did you come up with a different way to get better at free throws besides taking 100 free throws at the end of practice every day? Are you coming in early? Maybe I didn't see you. Are you coming in before practice? Are you shooting free throws at home? Are you watching videos about shooting free throws? Like, what are you doing? I haven't done any of those things. Okay, so if you don't do any of those things, then I'm going to have to start to question whether or not you really wanted to get better at free throws. And it's the same for anything, right? Any goal you have, you have to have a plan of action. And then your coach or mentor will ask you questions about whether or not you're following your plan.
- [28:27]
B
And what kind of cadence do you recommend a salesperson set up with their mentorship relationship? I know, you know, sales managers, a lot of. A lot of them are of the. Of the opinion that you interact with your, your reps every day or, and certainly have one formal call a week or meeting a week face to face, where you can interact and talk about whether you know how things are going and you know, what's in the pipeline and how all the deals are kind of playing out the, the classic cadence call for this type of mentorship relationship. How often do you think, what's the frequency you should be interacting there?
- [29:08]
A
I. I think in the beginning, it's weekly, and then over the course of time, it becomes less frequent. So for me, it's. I, I always imagine how frequently, frequently would you meet with somebody if you were trying to teach them to ice skate? You know, in the beginning of teaching somebody to ice skate, they're going to fall a lot and, and get hurt, and they're going to need you to be on the ice with them, and you're going to be wearing ice skates to, too, if you're the coach, right. And you may be even holding somebody's hand or giving them some additional sort of aids that help them skate. Some sort of. They've got these walker things now. I don't know if you've seen them. You hold them in front of you and you, you know, like you skate with them for a while.
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B
And you know, I'm from the Midwest, so we're born knowing how to ice skate.
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A
We don't, we don't have.
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B
If you can walk, you can skate. There's no walker things.
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A
There's no walker things, Right. So it's a lot of hand holding in the beginning if you're trying to teach somebody to ice skate, right. Unless you're from the Midwest or from Canada, I suppose. But then as time goes along, they, you know, they're, they're going fast like you, you can't keep up with them and you're not holding any hands. So what, what I notice about like Olympic skaters is the coaches are now outside the ice, right? And they're just watching the person skate. And then the person who's skating comes over and, and the coach says a few things and then they go back out and they do some more skating and then they come over and it's sort of like that, right. So. But way less frequently than, than, than an ice skating coach. So for me, like a mentor relationship is in the beginning, once a week. If it's your sales manager, you can't be talking about other stuff, right? So like when I mentor people who are on my sales team, I set aside a time when we talk about just them and just their goals and not anything that's on my agenda. Right. It's just about their agenda and it's a separate meeting and it's a mentorship only meeting. But mostly I don't mentor people on my own team because it's much easier to have that relationship where you're not talking about the day to day if that person's not part of your team, right. They have a different manager, so that's probably a better bet. But frequently in the beginning, less frequently over time. But then the question is, well, how long should you have this mentor relationship with somebody? And I say forever. You know, I, I just went to see my mentor. I just went out to North Carolina and met with Dick and we played some golf and we had some laughs and we talked about some business and it was great. You know, 30 years later, we're still, still doing it.
- [31:42]
B
That's fantastic. And, and sometimes, you know, and relationships are, are vital for sales success. It's vital to, you know, build those lifelong relationships. I think it's, it's one of the most fun parts of business, I think, think is to have Those types of.
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A
I agree.
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B
The ongoing interactions, like the business relationships.
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A
You want, you want to get a.
- [32:00]
B
Doctor just a few years older than you or about your age that you can kind of grow old together. A lot of these life relationships, it's. If you play, if you play your cars, right, you, you really get stealing for over, over the long term.
- [32:13]
A
Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Dick is 10 years older than me, and I think that's a, that's a good number. Right. And I'm 10 years older than a person I've been mentoring for the last 25 years. And it gives you the opportunity for, for longevity. As you were saying, you know, if you pick somebody who's 30 years older than you, they're probably not going to be interested for the long haul. And you're gonna have to find a. Another mentor eventually.
- [32:40]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And I guess. Are there, are there different things that you've learned from being a mentor versus being a mentee?
- [32:53]
A
Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, it's not as easy as some people make it look. That's one of the things I learned. I've got to bite my tongue all the time because I want to tell people what to do. And that's not what a mentor relationship is. A mentor relationship is trying to get people to discover what they should be doing. Right. You got to ask a lot of questions. And I, in my career, I mean, I, I, I would prefer to give directives, but that's, that's not what people need from a mentor. So I've, I've had to pull myself back from explaining exactly what you should be doing next and then instead going about it saying, well, what do you think you should be doing next?
- [33:36]
B
Makes sense.
- [33:38]
A
Yeah.
- [33:38]
B
I've, I've spread myself a little thin in my mentoring, and I used to be better at it than I, than I am today, but I've, I've probably had, you know, 500 employees over the years. And I, earlier on, 10, 10, 12 years ago, I was, even 15 years ago, I was a much better mentor than I am today. Today. I've almost given up now, but.
- [33:59]
A
But.
- [34:00]
B
I think it might have been more, it's maybe more valuable to, rather than like, you know, I was, I would like, teach classes to, you know, groups of interns early on and twice a week and things like that. But I think it would maybe, would have been more valuable to work more deeply with a, with just a couple people.
- [34:19]
A
Yeah. Well, you can have, you can have different levels of teaching relationships with people. Right. So you could be a lecturer And a lecturer is not a mentor, you know, but that's still a valuable position for, for people to, to, to reach a broad audience. Being a lecturer is a pretty good way to go, you know, but a mentor reaches individuals and to your point, you know, you, you have to kind of pick and choose. And I think that when, when you're a, when you're seeking a student, you know, a mentee, you're trying to find somebody who's going to be a good match for your style, you know, and somebody you're going to be excited about helping for, for a long time. And that's not everybody. That's just really not.
- [34:59]
B
Yeah, well, I, I guess I, I started leaning towards more scaled things. Right. Like my, my. I've got classes on LinkedIn learning and stuff that have been viewed a quarter of a million times, you know, like, but that, yeah, that was so I guess I've, I've done more stuff like that. But I, I think there's a lot of, like, I think it's cool that, you know, but it's all, I think on a human level it's, it's almost better to really have these like, deep connections with people where you're really like getting into it with people, you know, like for the long term and. Yeah. You're golfing when, you're golfing with them when they're retired sort of thing.
- [35:36]
A
Yeah, right, right. Well, you know, by, by their very nature, deep, long lasting relationships are few and far between. So you can't have lots and lots of them.
- [35:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. One thing I have found helpful with that is to, is to get something, a recurring meeting on the calendar with someone who, if, unless you work with them or something, you know. But like.
- [36:00]
A
Right.
- [36:01]
B
Like there are people that I have like a quarterly meeting with and, and you know, I guess, you know, just to. I, I think that that's a different. I think for a true mentorship relationship it has to be a lot more frequent than that. But I do have, you know, relationships with people that I meet with them quarterly, in person or over the phone, whatever. And, and that's that those, some of those are still really valuable.
- [36:27]
A
Yeah, I, I completely agree. I mean, to me, calendarization is the key to making anything happen. Right. You've got to put it on the calendar, commit to a recurring cadence, whatever it is, and then execute it, you know, every time. And don't put those things off. Don't call the person the day before and cancel or try to reschedule that. That kills a relationship right there for sure.
- [36:54]
B
Yeah. A lot of mine are kind of in turmoil right now because I, I've moved to Spain and, and so, you know, all these, all these recurring meetings I used to have, like, you know, Friday afternoon at 4 o'. Clock. Now I'm like, well, that's 4am So I guess it's 1am so that's a problem. But so I guess let's move on to the next section. Sales in 60 seconds. Quick questions, quick answers. What's, what's your favorite piece of sales advice that your mentor shared with you? You gave us one, but what, what, what's the, what's another? What jumps out in your mind and what's the favorite one you've shared with, with your mentee?
- [37:39]
A
One of my favorites is that projects fail and people learn. So I've stumbled many times and when I do, I get pretty down on myself because I just, I don't want to fail, you know, And I, and I just feel bad when I make a mistake. And what Dick taught me was, hey, look, projects fail all the time. You know, if you're not taking big swings, then you have no chance of hitting a home run. He says, but when you take a big swing, you also bring the strikeout into play. And he says, so yeah, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to fail. He says, and when you do, you're going to learn some stuff and then you're going to learn, you know, how to succeed in the future better and how not to make that same mistake twice. He says, so don't worry about it. You know, projects fail all the time. And when they do, people learn. And people learning is a very, very valuable thing.
- [38:38]
B
Awesome. And, and what about, was there something that jumps out in your mind that you've shared with your mentee?
- [38:45]
A
Sure. What I tell, what I tell my mentees is when things are going well, keep working, right? Find us, find another time zone, call somebody in Spain. You know, keep on working. Because whatever you're doing is just, has become magical, right? You've got, you've got to touch that day. And the opposite is true. If you're having a bad day, just stop. Because you are, for whatever reason, you're repelling people, right? The, the chemical imbalance is, is, is real. You're, you're not succeeding because of something you're doing and to keep doing more of it in an effort to work your way through it, that's not going to work. You're just going to repel more people. So just take a break. You know, go do something that you enjoy and free your mind from, from work and then come back the next day and give it another try.
- [39:35]
B
Clear your inbox. No, that's, that's fantastic advice. What about finding a mentor? How do you go about seeking out a mentor? Do you leverage online social networks? Is it people? You're, you're, how do you connect with someone on this level?
- [39:57]
A
I think you can use LinkedIn, for example, to try to find somebody. It's going to be somebody who's in your business. Right. We talked about that earlier. Somebody who's got more experience and, and wisdom than you do. So probably somebody older than you, more than likely, but not necessarily. And probably somebody who's currently in your network or in the network of your, of your close associates. And I don't think you need to look very far because there's lots of people out there who are willing to help. I have found, honestly, almost everybody's willing to help. And that's the number one criteria. Somebody who is empathetic and a good listener and of course has got some wisdom in your business. And I think that people know, people know where to find them, you know, at your own job. If you work for a big company like I do, just find somebody in another business unit. That's the easiest way. If you work for a small company, you may have to find somebody who works in a, in a vendor capacity. Maybe you wouldn't want your mentor to be from your direct competitor. That's probably not going to work too well. But it can be somebody who's, who's near to your business, but not, not in your company.
- [41:17]
B
Makes sense. I think customers can even be great mentors at times in their own capacities because you can, if you can really go deep there, you can understand them so much better. And they can, they can become, if you can get a coaching relationship going where you're being coached by your, by your customers, that's, that can be really powerful across the board. If you, especially if you're selling to always the same kind of customer, if you're, you know, selling a dentist or something. Getting a dentist to really coach you is really powerful if you really mesh with one.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah, totally agree. Maybe if it's, maybe if it's somebody else's customer, it might even be better. Like, like if you work in a sales team and, and it's not your direct customer, they don't, they don't pay you right. But they, they work with your associate, then you might, that might even be a better opportunity for you. Because then their relationship doesn't, doesn't impact your paycheck.
- [42:17]
B
Yeah, makes sense. And we talked about the length of time that you can have a mentorship relationship for. Is there. You've had one for 35 years with your mentor. Yeah. What about, what about in terms of shortness? Is there, is there a limit? Like, or the other direction? Like, if it's a really sharp mentor mentorship, can it still be valuable?
- [42:41]
A
Oh, yeah, for sure. You know, I've been a part of mentorship programs where you get connected up with people who are seeking a mentor. So you put yourself out there, you say, I'm willing to be a mentor. And then there's people who say, I could really use a coach. Right. And then you get connected and the term is maybe a minimum of six months or maybe a maximum of a year. And so I like these because they're time bound. So you're trying to get something accomplished. So you're not just. It's not a social relationship. Right. It's a business contract where they've got goals in mind and they need help trying to figure some stuff out. And you're committed to figuring that stuff out with them for six months or a year. And then at the end you can decide, are we going to, are we going to take this long term, you know, in a less formal way, or are we going to terminate it? And I've done both. I have done both with people.
- [43:37]
B
Fantastic. Well, I'm going to try to summarize all the, all the valuable stuff you've taught us about mentorship and coaching.
- [43:44]
A
All right, let's. Yeah, let's hear it.
- [43:47]
B
So a mentor is a great coach and someone who can nudge you down the right path. Great time to look for a mentor is, is at the beginning of a career, when you're starting something new, look for a mentor who has deep experience in your specific field. That's usually where it's the most relevant and the most valuable. When you're looking for a mentor, you want to look for somebody who's empathetic, who's a great listener, and who puts your goals above their, above their own interests. That selflessness that, that willingness to give. When hiring for a sales manager, you want to really seek out people who naturally seem to have these great coaching skills and empathy and listening skills, because that's such an important part of the management role in sales. Great mentors see the long game. They're, they look beyond just day to day and they're, they're looking, you know, at they're looking at you over your year, your entire career. Even.
- [44:54]
A
When you, when you run into.
- [44:55]
B
A tough situation and no one's around to help you, you want to make sure you practice riding your own kayak. Solving problems on your own is a critical skill set. And, and your mentor can't do it all for you. Right. And then that's not what we're asking for them, but we're, we're looking to learn, learn how to fish from them. Right?
- [45:15]
A
Right.
- [45:16]
B
Great lesson. Time kills deals. If someone's ready to buy, close it up, get ink the deal. Don't, don't wait and, and, and, but get it done today. Great way to do this. Put together templates. If you rose common deals and, and then have them kind of in your back pocket to, so you can whip them out when you, when you need to get a signature. People buy for emotional reasons. Salespeople need to create emotional instigators with the questions that they ask. So you want to really paint a picture of an optimistic future for your prospects. Mentors don't set goals. They hold you accountable to the goals. They can do this by asking questions about the goals. They can ask you how you plan to reach the goal. They can ask you whether you're following your plan. Remember, mentors aren't there to tell you what to do. Mentors are there to ask great questions and provide guidance so that you can do it for yourself. This, this has just been so, so valuable, you know, really learned a ton from you today, Tim, about mentorship. And this is not something that I don't, I don't think that many people have expertise and where can people, where can they read more about your work? How can they reach out to you to learn more?
- [46:42]
A
Well, you can reach me on LinkedIn. That's really pretty easy. Or you can go to my website, which is a little tricky because it's Tim JM Roar. R-O-H-R-E-R.com Also, if people want to, they can buy my book on Amazon. It's Sales Lessons of the World's Greatest Mentor. Or you can search my name on Amazon and you'll find it.
- [47:07]
B
Well, this has been a great episode of the outside sales talk. If you work in field sales, you'll love badger maps. Number one route planner helps you sell 20% more and drive 20, 20% less. Get a free trial@badgermapping.com today. And if anyone can think of any other sales reps that would benefit from learning the skills that Tim's taught us here today. Definitely forward this episode onto them. Once again, thank. Thanks so much for coming on the show today, Tim.
- [47:33]
A
Thank you, Steve. It was great. Take care.
- [47:36]
B
Until next time, everybody.