Increasing Training Engagement with your Sales Reps - Outside Sales Talk with Stephen Rhyne

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Outside Sales Talk
Host: Steve Benson
Guest: Stephen Rhyne (CEO, conveyor.com)
Episode: Increasing Training Engagement with Your Sales Reps
Date: October 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how companies can dramatically improve engagement in sales training. Stephen Rhyne leverages his 22 years of experience in recruiting, onboarding, and retaining outside sales reps to share insights into what works—and what doesn’t—when it comes to training today’s diverse and often distracted workforce. He covers strategies for making training relevant, interactive, and sticky, providing actionable advice for sales leaders who want to build motivated, high-performing teams.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Core Challenges of Training Engagement

• Changing Expectations (01:50): Stephen notes generational shifts in both employee loyalty and attention. Reps no longer expect to spend decades at a company, so you can’t take their engagement for granted.

• SELL the Training, Don’t Just Assign It (01:50):

  • Training must answer "what's in it for me?" for every rep. It should not just focus on company objectives but on pain points and personal benefits.
  • “Paint them a picture of the pain that’s going to be caused for you if you don’t understand this.” — Stephen Rhyne [02:53]

• Explain the Process & Set Expectations (04:40):

  • Orient trainees with an overview, like showing the full map in a video game, so they understand the journey versus dropping them straight into “level 1” with no context.

2. Making Training Engaging and Relevant

• Relatability Over Dry Content (05:38):

  • Both Stephen and Steve recall old-fashioned, passive learning (e.g., marathon VHS tape sessions). Those are not feasible for today’s workforce, especially “the TikTok generation.”
  • “I do not think you could get someone in the TikTok generation to do what they made us do.” — Steve Benson [05:38]

• Positioning and Intrigue (07:37):

  • Reps are often recruited and even pitched by other companies mid-training—your training needs to keep them excited and motivated.

3. Tactical Approaches for Better Engagement

• Chunking and Pacing (09:19):

  • Break content into smaller, digestible units (7-15 minutes each).
  • Incorporate quizzes and interactive elements—create “LEGO bricks” of knowledge rather than overwhelming blocks.

• Personalizing Learning Paths (12:07):

  • Avoid “lowest common denominator” training, which bores veterans and confuses novices.
  • Begin with diagnostic quizzes (hard and soft questions) to identify existing knowledge, then route learners to “brush up” or advanced material as needed.
  • This builds “learner trust”—reps see training as worthwhile rather than time-wasting.

• Learning Styles & Diversity (12:07):

  • Use a mix of media: video, audio, quizzes.
  • Focus less on supposed “learning styles” (auditory/visual) and more on maintaining relevance and trust.

4. Interactive & Creative Techniques

• Gamification (16:06, 22:37):

  • Implement leaderboards, challenges, rewards.
  • Publicly celebrate top performers to foster competition and community.
  • “Competition is not just for entry level … people love it at all ranks.” — Stephen Rhyne [24:34]

• Social Proof & SMEs (16:06):

  • Feature internal subject matter experts (SMEs) to demonstrate best practices, not just top execs or hired trainers.
  • Real stories from peers are more convincing and relatable.

• Belief-Building Campaigns (17:30):

  • Sometimes training isn’t the answer—prospective reps need belief that they can succeed. Early, peer-led video messages can reduce day-2/3 attrition by normalizing early challenges.

5. Role and Timing of Feedback

• Real-Time Feedback (25:39):
  • Mix feedback opportunities directly into lessons, not isolated post-training surveys.
  • Use instant polls and confidence checks at key moments.
  • Automated systems can trigger individualized follow-ups immediately, e.g., “Was this enough for you? If not, here’s more.”

6. Training Retention & Ongoing Success

• Focus on the Long Tail (28:11):

  • Follow up consistently after initial training; ongoing reminders and drip quizzes are more effective than one-time events.
  • “So many companies ... spend a bunch of money to make some crazy course ... and then they don’t do any follow up.” — Stephen Rhyne [29:20]

• Referenceability & Microlearning (32:20):

  • Modular micro-lessons are more shareable and referenceable for managers.
  • Bite-size content enables managers to reinforce learning quickly.

7. Measuring and Optimizing Training

• Meaningful Metrics (35:04):

  • Monitor more than completion rates: engagement funnels (where people drop off), quiz scores, qualitative video submissions, and tie training back to field KPIs wherever possible.
  • “It means nothing if you don’t do anything with it.” — Stephen Rhyne on gamification & recognition [23:58]

• Align Training with Business Goals (56:28):

  • Don’t check boxes—work backwards from concrete company objectives.
  • Test for real knowledge gaps; tease out training, collect reactions, iterate based on measurable impact.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Nowadays, generations don’t like picking up the phone ... they want to know all the information first before they jump in.” — Stephen Rhyne [02:40]
• “You have to get good at the hook … start with what they get, then unfurl.” — Stephen Rhyne [40:42]
• “Treat your salespeople totally different than you would your own prospects and customers ... apply what you do with your customers to your reps.” — Stephen Rhyne [43:03]
• “The fight for attention is killing the ability to create a bigger knowledge graph earlier before you even need it.” — Stephen Rhyne [52:16]
• “Don’t just make training for the sake of it. ... Start with what goals do we have as a business?” — Stephen Rhyne [56:28]

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Practical Takeaways

• Sell your training: Always lead with “why this matters for you.”
• Map the journey: Show reps the big picture before launching into content.
• Chunk & pace: Short, interactive bursts are king.
• Personalize: Use quizzes to adapt content to experience levels.
• Engage with games & competition: Early gamification helps identify future high performers.
• Feature peers: Champion real, relatable SME voices.
• Responsive feedback: Build in real-time surveys and poll moments.
• Ongoing reminders: Drip follow-ups and micro-quizzing retain learning.
• Measure what matters: Track engagement, not just completion, and align with business outcomes.

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Suggested Resources

Learn more or connect with Stephen Rhyne:
conveyor.com – check out the "Get Pricing and Demo" option for guides and deeper insights.

Transcript

[A]

It's huge. And I think it's one of those lost opportunities. The way people in training have typically done feedback is they separate, doing the training with the feedback. And I think that they lose a lot of fidelity in their feedback when they separate or when they have a slow timeline between the two.

[B]

This is Outside Sales Talk, the best podcast for outside salespeople. I'm your host, Steve Benson and and we're here to chat with the world's top sales experts so that you can get their best sales tactics to level up your game. Welcome back to Outside Sales Talk. Today I've got Steven Ryan with me and we're going to talk about increasing training engagement with your sales reps. Welcome to the show, Stephen.

[A]

Thank you for having me, Steve.

[B]

Absolutely. Just by way of introduction, Stephen is the CEO of conveyor.com and for the last 10 years he's been helping out companies like LG, Cy Power, Vivint, Cutco. And what he does for them is he helps them recruit, onboard, train and retain more reps. Stephen has 22 years of experience in direct sales recruiting, onboarding, training and rep retention. His platform conveyor helps with all the back office and administrative items need to grow that type of door to door sales team. In today's episode, we'll be covering how to have better engagement with reps during sales training, since that's one of his areas of expertise. So first question, Stephen, what are the biggest challenges would you say that companies face when they're trying to keep reps engaged during a sales training?

[A]

Yeah, first challenge is there's, it's just shifted over many years or many generations, which is, I think companies relied a lot on training to be like, it's just assumed that you're going to be engaged in the training because you're going to be at a location in a brick and mortar where there's that conformity, like we're losing all that conformity where you're going to. First conformity came from the fact that people kind of believe that they're going to be at the company for a really long time. And 10 years have gone down and down and down. You know, it's not the 30 year Boeing retirement, you know, process anymore. And so with that said, the company sometimes doesn't understand that they actually need to sell and position their training first before they even get into the what. So the why and the what's in it for me is more and more important. And the hook, like you got to develop a hook. So I think sales and training people are getting More or wising up to this, that everything is about the attention game and that they're fighting for the attention, especially if they're field based for one app over which is, you know, their Instagram or their or whatever. And so they have to really focus on, you know, anchoring their training and what it's in for them. And that looks like, you know, hey, understanding your stakeholder understanding, like don't turn it into like this is, you need to learn this because this is how it's going to help this objective for the company. It's like, no, no, no. Paint them a picture of the pain that's going to be caused by, you know, for you if you don't understand this. So let's say it's a teller at a bank about something like simple as explaining an overdraft fee. Well, you could explain it to like, you know, kind of go over their head around how this is going to help the company, you know, talk to more people at the bank, the location more quickly or you could make it about the customer. But really you need to be like, do you know that stress of what it's like to be trying to talk to a frustrated customer as they come to the front of the desk? I want to help you get through that process faster. So that's what's in it for them. And I think that owners of companies, kind of, because we're so used to like kind of eating glass is they forget that a lot of the thing that drives someone to learn is reducing their anxiety or the pressure or the stress in the role. And so that's the first thing that is challenging that they need to get right. The other one is just not explaining the process. So nowadays, you know, generations don't like pick up the phone, right? Because there's some kind of thing they don't know on the other end of that call. They want to read reviews, they want to know all the information first before they jump in. Okay. They have so much information that they're used to information. So explain your process. Like explain how initial onboarding is going to go, initial training is going to go, you're going to go through this, then you're going to learn this. This is how you're going to get transformed. You're going to be this. Once you come through, you're going to be awesome at this is going to take this long. This is how many units there are. It's just like a video game. So if you start a video game, remember like Mario back in the day, it showed you the whole map. Like you didn't get to go to the whole pieces of the map, but it showed you the whole map. And I think customer or customers we've talked to like don't get that sometimes they, they jump them into level one without explaining, even letting them see level nine. Like what, what level nine is going to have in it. And so those are two challenges. Just in summary, like help the rep understand the whole process. You don't have to get too deep in it and then go into level one and then two, sell them on what's in it for them.

[B]

Yeah. As you were talking I was thinking back to how dull my trainings were. So I started my career at Allstate was my first job out of college. And then IBM. And I'm thinking back to like how those trainings were like at Allstate they like locked me in this little like closet like place for like two weeks and just like it was just like a stack of VHS tapes of like, you know, it was like it must have been 80 hours of trainings on VHS tapes. And me and this other girl who had just been hired, we were just supposed to sit in their room and watch them. And I do not think you could get someone in the TikTok generation to do what they made us do. It was like tests on those. It was like so. It was so dull and dry. I don't know if I could get someone these days to do that. It was so bad.

[A]

There has been a shift. Yeah. Why did you do it though? Like first you didn't have the, you didn't have any anchor in outside of that. The really besides books. Right. Or a whole full length movie. That said, this should be faster. I should have the. This should be an email, not a meeting, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think it was a duller world then for sure. I think it was a. More compared to a book about the insurance industry. These tapes from Allstate were great.

[A]

At least we got it on vhs, right.

[B]

I think it actually didn't come with like a thumbnail thick like you know, like with the little plastic holding like between like the little plastic wiry binder thing. Like I think it came with some books like that that like went along. It was like a, it was like the worst college course you'd ever gone through. But luckily, you know, I was fresh out of college and a lot of my courses are pretty dull so I got, I got through it. But certainly I think that the tips and tricks that you're, you're giving here are dead on.

[A]

So let me just paint one more analogy, especially because we have the benefit of learning these hard truths, working with contractors, whether they be technician contractors or salespeople out in the field. And in contractors, the experience would be like you sitting in that room or that closet doing training and having three or four other companies coming into that room getting your attention about another opportunity while you're doing training. So the, and, and, and you're a hot shot. So, like, you're a hot shot. You're put in through this boring training. You're not hooking me, you're not reselling me on why I should be at Allstate. And then somebody else is coming into the room selling them, like on a better. And whoever does that better. I always argue, what if you took like an insurance rat and all you did instead of training was just get them really excited about doing the job and learning. You like being the consummate person. They'd go on YouTube to try to. They might not learn the way you do it, but they'd go and try to learn, you know, how it works, right. You get real. Somebody really, really excited about SaaS sales and the opportunity they have. They're gonna just like go start listening to people like Stelle Efty or something like that, you know, so it's, it's more about positioning what's in it for them than it really is about the what.

[B]

Absolutely. How, how can training, how can companies make these trainings feel like less of a chore and more exciting, more of an opportunity? Like, how do you, how would you advise they capture that?

[A]

Yeah, chunk it better. That's the first one. When we go, when we're stuck on the freeway and we're going 30 miles an hour and it's, you know, 60 mile an hour, miles per hour, we're like, it's, it's awful and slow and it's the same road. You get off and you're going past mile markers and you're, you're going past, you know, we're on a rural road. You're going 30 miles still, but you're still making way more progress. It feels better. Okay? And it's because it's not mundane. It's not the same. And so chunking and pacing. We've heard this pacing in the social media world is really important with content. And so people make these really big, like, you know, old school scorm courses where they're just really long and there's these big, long videos and there's no interaction. It's a vhs. It just keeps going. There's no back and forth at all, there's no engagement. And of course like people are going to be like, this is awful. You know, know there's no, I don't get like a trophy, I don't get any, I don't get a digital. Like you did it, you know, at any, any point, take a game like Halo. If you didn't have like actual campaign points where you had a spot where you get to see the, you know, the video come on and like, you know, you, you, you know, Cortana shows up and everything and, and you didn't get like that and it was just constant barrage, like it wouldn't be as fun. And so chunking is really important. And that's where you say what you're going to do, you explain them in the process and then you show them that you actually are going to do the process. So the way that looks applied in our platform is we typically tell customers make lessons that are seven to 15 minutes worth of content. Just a good little 15 minute conversation, a video, maybe a few quizzes, a file and put it all together. Like tell them something, engage them and ask them for feedback all at once. It's a conversation. Then take those little LEGO bricks and build out like the LEGO spaceship with that. But do not make these giant one size fits all courses where you're talking at them for 30 minutes.

[B]

And how can you deal with the way different people learn differently? Like if you were hiring me and you were hiring a 23 year old, I read at a school today, we're different learners, we're different people, we had different backgrounds. If you're hiring us both and do the same job, how do you, how do you deal with our age diversity and other types of diversity and gender diversity and all the, and just learning diversity. Like I know different people just learn so differently. How do you, how do you make your courses or your trainings fit everyone? If you're a company trying to teach.

[A]

That is so one thing I will say is the whole concept of blended learning, how learning has to be completely different for different people has been debunked by science in terms of the concept of LMS blended learning. What is true though is that a really common problem is also I'll I call it the lowest common denominator training, which is, I'm not saying people don't like some people see better auditorially or hear, you know, like learn better auditorially or you know, better visually and things like that. I'd say Put all of those in there. Make it, you know, make it high fidelity with audio, video, quizzing, feedback, all sorts of stuff. But the biggest challenge I think beyond just like how people think is actually I call it learner trust. And this lowest common denominator problem. So what happens in companies when they're trying to train on something? I'll give you a scenario. Let's say you've got 100 people out in the field. 20 of them are like super veterans. 20 of them are brand spanking new. And then like, do you know the other. I do my math right. 60 are somewhere in the middle. Okay, well the biggest problem isn't so much like, I'm more auditor. Like, that's all very nebulous. What's really the biggest problem is you're gonna, you put out a lowest common denominator training and it's gonna make your veterans roll their eyes and be like, I already know all this stuff. Right? Or they think they know it and then the new people are gonna go, I don't even know what you're talking about. I have no anchors. I don't know what you're talking about. With this new product update, like so in software we have a new feature and it changes things and settings changed and everything, right? Change management, Everybody needs to know about it. So what, what you do is you actually this is what we approach is, is you build a kind of like a little game where you, we use it with workflows is you launch out something where you are going to say first, before we do any training, I'm going to throw out hardball questions and softball questions and I'm going to build a profile on you. I'm going to build like a little. How much do you really know about this concept? Especially even the veterans, it takes a few minutes. And the veteran that thinks that they knew about it, that wasn't paying attention to three previous updates gets like, oh, actually I don't know about this. And you take them into the brush up section and they go into the brush up section for a minute and then you jump them to the new new. So you do basically a little kind of workflow, little if this, then that workflow where you give them a score. If they, they're, they just got trained on the new stuff and they're in the middle in that spectrum, they might go straight to the new and just get the new thing that the new policy that changed and they have, they were good. They had all of it in their mind already. The new people, they need the Brush up to understand the whole concept completely. And the veterans just need like the middle before they get pushed to the new. So it'd be as if you had someone going around and tapping everybody's shoulder in the office and saying, how much do you know about this? Great, let's start here. How much do you know about it? Great, let's start over here. And you can do that at scale. Like we've had people do this for thousands of people and it's so much better than that, like lowest common denominator. Because what it does is it builds learner trust. So learner trust is like a, when I get something from the training department, like, I know that they're not going to waste my time. They're not going to give me like this thing that is either too confusing because I don't know anything about it or is, you know, way over. Like I already know about it and I'm just gonna not look at it because I'm a veteran. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And, and how would you think about making, if you were a company that wanted to have more creative ways to make your training more interactive, more engaging to people that you were concerned might get bored with your training, how would you go about that? What are some, some things, some ways you could approach that?

[A]

Yeah. So here I'll give you some examples of how we've done that. So first is typically our platform doesn't fully replace like physical or web based, you know, zoom based training because maybe it's, it's a brand new, you know, they don't have, they make videos for all the content. So they'll do a training and then like, hey, by the way, at the end of this webinar we're going to have a dripped out challenge quiz, right? Where every day you're going to get this little quiz and then after that we might have a little backfill on the right answer just to reinforce the learning. And we're going to call it the 30 day challenge. In fact, we started out, our first product was helping speakers and trainers and thought leaders have a better experience after their speaking event. So people would join this and then for 30 days they're on a leaderboard and they're answering the questions and they're simple, like multiple choice questions on topics that were in the content or in this scenario, what would you do? Right? And there's a leaderboard, it's all gamified and at the end of the, you know, the session you've got your top winners for the people that like retained it or, you know, turned it into practice. So that's a great, you know, great way to make something more interactive. Another thing that's really engaging is doing a better job of using your best subject matter experts internally. So I think I'm a big believer that an SME, internal SME that is closer to your ideal seller profile is going to have way more pull than the person that's, you know, the ultimate veteran veteran or the owner of the company doing it right. So how that can work out is you can actually, with our tool or other tools, you can re, you can send out a request to get somebody to do their best pitch or explain the best concept. Just give me five minutes or two minutes on you explaining how you get through this objection or how you do this technical thing. And then we're going to take your content and we're going to, we're going to highlight you and we're going to put it into ours. So instead of using corporate video, use your people on your team and also use them to highlight maybe an objection and an answer to that. So one of my, this goes back to selling and positioning rather than just training. But we had a tier one manufacturer, car manufacturer who had high attrition on like day two and three of new factory workers, like new factory line workers. And the things that they were, they were leaving for were, they were sore. They're literally their forearms were sore. And two, they were anxious about how they were bugging everybody else on the line because they were going too slow. So what did they do? They had, they just took their self, they just went around with their camera, you know, and like talked to people that had been around for only a couple weeks and just say, hey, tell me about what you were worried about after day one and how you got past it. Like, oh, well, I was just sore. I was really sore. But it went away like the third day and I got used to it and I was really worried that people were going to get frustrated with me, but they were all cool, done. And they sent that out after the offer letter, after the offer, they started a belief building campaign after that and it reduced the, the attrition. So it's not even training, it's just belief building and that is engagement. So. Absolutely.

[B]

Well, that, that's, that's, that makes a ton of sense and seems super important, especially for, I mean, almost every job has, has its challenges and its tough spots and the things that make it difficult and especially for people that are new to an industry that can be huge Just to set the expectations. Right. I mean that's always important with, with like, with all the humans set expectations.

[A]

The non answer to engagement is. I think there's an. This is a controversial answer. But then corporate, corporate arms race of making bells and whistles and engaging training is actually a symptom of a problem of lack of engagement and buy in. Okay. Because like let me do this. Do you not learn something on Instagram watching a little 9 by 16 video? Do you not learn from social media or YouTube or reading a little blurb on Twitter?

[B]

You can certainly learn. You can, right? Absolutely. You can learn complicated things that way.

[A]

You learn complicated things that way. Do you need a drag and drop, you know, corporate e learning thing for you to learn something off of like this. People are still engaged in social media, right? Okay.

[B]

So usually, usually not because they're trying to learn things. But. Yeah, right, right.

[A]

It could be, you know, a cat video or something. But, but do you get what I'm getting at? Like this arms race is coming from, from vendors, right. When it really is. It's really about the hook, it's really about the content. It's really about you selling, you know, selling the training and then, and then training it in the right pacing rather. That's what's engaging. What's not engaging is crappy content poorly positioned with some cool like drag this over there to match up these two things together, you know, Come on. That's not engaging.

[B]

Yeah, I'm trying to think of the Duolingo always has those and I'm like, this is so stupid. It's like match the word to the. I'm like.

[A]

It'S cool and we do some of it, don't get me wrong, was like they're good quizzing capabilities. And I do like, I do like engagement. But I used to be on the bandwagon of like, let's just keep making really cool engaging formats. And over time I've just been like, this is, we're solving them for the wrong problem. The problem really is helping our customers understand the psychology, you know, and do better psychology with people.

[B]

People. Yeah, well, and, and I, I, I think competition gamification is particularly important with, with salespeople and sale. When you're training sales teams. How, how important is that? What is the, what role does competition and gamification play in increasing engagement? When your trainings would. You said.

[A]

Yeah, so the, the, what we found is the, the gamification is actually very helpful. You can't rely on lag metrics. You can only rely on Lead metrics on somebody's effort. So especially when you're working with 1099, there's a lot of training. You just, well, there's zero training you can really tell people to do. On 1099 you can kind of quote, unquote, this is required to do the role, but you can't really force them to do anything. So when you see a rep or technician engaging in your elective content and playing the game, it really helps, you know, which for your managers who to focus on. As someone who has earnest in doing the role so early on, it's a really, really, really great way to identify probably the players that want to, you know, really play the game before they have any lag metrics, which is the number of installs, the number of sales. Right. And it creates community, it creates, you know, good competition. Like, I mean obviously it's for competition, but the points doesn't really matter. Like we, we obviously anybody, people create different levels of denomination. Sometimes they're like frank like Swiss francs was like one or two points and sometimes it's Zimbabwean dollars where there's like 10 million points for, you know, this answering this one question and then it's really about like what you do with that. So, so are you communicating to your field like the top winners? Are you sharing that out? Are you highlighting it? It means nothing if you don't do anything with it. But if you, if you do put some hype around it and you, you ain't, you foreshadow it early on. That's where it gets, it really wins. So it's really just around what, how you hype it and how you put context around it.

[B]

It's always amazing how, how hard people try if the winner gets an iPad.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. In fact, that 30 day challenge about, with the, with this speaker, he had, I mean like executives from like big companies, Coca Cola and Marriott and like all these, all these companies like clamoring for the next, you know, the next question. I just thought that was so cool. You know, they're like, when's the next question? I think I got that one wrong. I accidentally hit this wrong button. Can you reset it for me? And so they were, they were stoked. So that's kind of cool to see it. Competition is not just for entry level competition. You know, people love it at all ranks.

[B]

Absolutely one. And there's something to competition also. It's a feedback loop, right? You're competing, you're seeing how you're doing in comparison to your peers. What other Roles do feedback loops play? And just feedback in general, like direct feedback, how can that play in really making a training successful? Keeping reps engaged in the training, what's the relationship there?

[A]

It's huge. And I think it's one of those lost opportunities. The way people in training have typically done feedback is they separate, doing the training with the feedback. And I think that they lose a lot of fidelity in their feedback when they separate or when they have a slow timeline between the two. So a lot of LMSs just don't support this. So this is me being part of the arms race and saying this should be done as our tech does.

[B]

Is.

[A]

That they, for example, you watch a little video, you answer a few quiz questions and then you give them an opportunity to provide feedback right then and there about how this went for them. Or you give them a poll question right then and there in the lesson itself, you mix and match it and say on a scale from 1 to 10, you know, how did you feel like this know landed for you? Or would you do this? Or do you feel confident right now? You could ask the same question over and over again, right? Are you feeling like before and after, do you, are you feeling more confident now that we've gone through this process? And what they do typically is they'll use something like, what's that one survey monkey or something, and they'll do it like way after. They'll, they'll, they'll ask for response way, way, way after. And first it's lazy because you're, you're asking them, you're taking more and more time, then they're having to recall back what happened when you could have just done it right at that vignette of time that you had with that person. It also is slow for you because now you have to reconcile the results and figure out what the next thing is to train on. Whereas with a right system that has automation, you could actually say it was this enough training for you? If not, hit this button and we'll kick out a new course for you right now. That's your feedback. I want more on this. And we'll just automate it. That's. We have people that have four people in their training department and are, are training 4,000 reps a year. You know, that's done through being able to do feedback and getting, and being able to launch out stuff depending on how people react or what's in their profile.

[B]

Well, and, and being great at training is a part of scaling your business. Right. I mean, it's, it's a you always have turnover. If you're growing, you always have new people. And this is important, Right. It's a key piece of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What, what about retention? What, what are some ways to follow up and ensure reps retain what they've learned?

[A]

Yeah, it. I would say focus more on the long tail. I've been trying. I kind of, I'm kind of beating a dead horse here. But focus more on the long tail of training than the front end. So take more time from. Like if I was going to train kids how to pick up. You have a three year old, right?

[B]

I do.

[A]

Okay. So when they start wearing socks, right. Six, seven, eight year old and you're training them to keep. Pick up their own socks, would you.

[B]

We're not, we're not there yet.

[A]

Yeah, not there yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But at that age, would you, Steve, like put on a sock outfit and make like a whiteboard, you know, presentation and you know, make a song. Get AI to make you a sock. Pick up your sock song and then present that to your child and then expect like that. That land and make such an indelible mark that they would just pick up their socks forever. Okay.

[B]

We do have a song about picking things up.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

But that's not sock specifically. That's just that stuff in, in in general.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I like it. Keep it, don't keep it so specific. Like everything should be picked up.

[B]

It's like clean up, clean up. Everybody clean up. I forget how it goes. Exactly.

[A]

We used to do that one. I like it. We need more of these parental songs that are like a mnemonic device that we can use to remember training song.

[B]

Song is great and it sticks and.

[A]

Sticks in your little brain like, like the state song or you know, other training songs. So songs are great. But my point though is that what's more likely is you're going to have a little explanation about why we clean up our socks. You're going to skip the presentation and then every once in a while you just be like, clean up your socks. Clean up socks. Did you clean up your socks? Clean up your socks. And so many companies do the first thing, which is they build, they spend a bunch of money to make some crazy course to explain something and then they don't do any follow up. They don't create a drip email campaign or drip texting campaign or anything to keep that going. Like they've just put. It's just all up front and then they check a box and they tell corporate that they trained on it and then it's done. So that's a long way of saying build, build a drip campaign that quizzes them on the content, like brings it back up. If it's something simple you don't need to quiz on, then just remind them and highlight how other people are doing with it. Tell them how the, like, if it's a number that needs to move, share that number with them and build a campaign to sell them on why they need to keep this top of mind. And that's where I think most people need to spend their time, is spending on how for the long run, how are we going to get from A to B and am I going to, how am I going to remind you through the journey to do that? And so again, that comes with gamification, with, you know, quizzing on the content, asking the question first, not telling them. So quiz them. By quizzing them, they are immediately, it's immediately evident that they did not retain the information and then you backfill. So if you just tell them, it's like, yeah, yeah, I already knew that. If you quiz them then they're like, oh, what are they going to ask me next? What else do I need to go review the initial training? Right. And so that's how we do it.

[B]

Do you have any examples of trainings that you've been involved in where you were able to really improve engagement or you got really great engagement and what would you say the specific changes you made in that circumstance were? Or what, what was, what, what was it that made the engagement and what made the, the, the results? What, what got, what got the kids trained? What, what would you say? What do you have an example that you've been involved in that really just nailed it.

[A]

Just nailed it. Well, one was, you know, I can't name the company, but a very large company that had a very slow, slow conversion to fully compliant rep. And they were also, it was slow in that the rep had to be fully compliant before they could hit the door just to sell. And they would put off their training over and over again. And then right when they had to go out on the door, they would just like jam through the training. Okay. And then they also would jam through the training and the weight was pass fail. So they would jam through it and they didn't get the right answer. They had to restart the whole thing. Okay. And so it was this big brick of content like compliance training, huge brick. Then they wouldn't get it and then they'd have to restart the whole thing and then they couldn't go out and Sail. And then managers were mad. And so what we did is we split it all up, like I said, created better pacing, and then we put in pass fails at each individual micro level. So if they didn't get the right answer or, you know, the right content on the early level, it would say, start over. And what it did is it changed the entire behavior. So the behavior now is I'm expecting that I actually have to lean in and actually have to listen to this because I can't wait till the all the way to the end to find out that I'm failing. All right, so that just increased the feedback loop, chunked it down to smaller bits. They increased the shareability a lot. So by chunking down 2, there's another aspect that's really great, which is managers can take one tiny bit of the training and shoot it over somebody. When you make it really big, there's no reference ability. It's like having, like the old Flash apps where you couldn't link to any one page in the application. He had no routes. There was no routes to deep linking into a specific part of the website. Right. And it's like that sometimes with training where they give this giant zip file, they upload it, and you can't get to one specific point part of it. Okay. So by doing those things, making it smaller, adding more feedback loop and quizzing and pass failing, you know, to each individual item, they were able to get people started faster on the training. It wasn't so scary, and they were ready before they were out on their trip.

[B]

That makes sense. Kind of a. A first. A first lesson is an easy lesson, and you get through it and. And you pass it and you're like, I get the. Okay, first levels. The first level is easy. Got it.

[A]

Yeah, it's more just like how to shoot your gun. You. You know what I mean? Like, level where, like, how to throw the ball, how to do this thing, and you get. You get your bearings and your.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, totally. And. And you know what. What measurements or KPIs do you use to determine if a training program is successful or not? I mean, whether or not they pass it, attend it. Did they learn the things?

[A]

What.

[B]

What do you recommend? Yeah, well, I mean, especially if it's like a softer skill. A lot. A lot of times, these sales training programs, it's like, oh, we're trying to improve everyone. We. We're having a challenge in the business with our margins, and so we're trying to improve everyone's abilities in negotiation. And it's just. It's very, you know, it's, it's, it's a softer skill. You can't be like yes, no. Do you know how to negotiate now?

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. You can only train, right? So on that it's always like that. That is an age old question. And so what we do is you know, you train as much you can on knowledge, like factual knowledge. You get to the soft skill stuff we use, you know, video coaching. So a rep uploads a video you have. When you, before you ask for that, that video you actually put in like a core competency rating. Like how you're going to rate the video. They upload a video you say okay I'm going to give them a 9 on accuracy, I'll give them a 7 on confidence. I'll give them this and this and then you, you share, you say great job. You give them a little review. They get a, they get a, an email with their, their star rating, right? And that's scored and you can actually say you can't move forward until we, until we get you get a video from you that's like this score. So that's a manual intervention. We want, actually want to replace that with a little bit of AI like this is the best case scenario, compare it to the, this best case version and just automatically rate it. That's what we want to do. But your question you know coming back to it was about how do you rate, you know, actual engagement or like what metrics do you use? You know there's a bit like let's just go up the level like the most difficult, like easiest and most difficult completion rating. Like.

[B]

Outside sales leaders. Are your conversations with buyers falling flat? Join us in a virtual forum we're holding called the Conversation is Broken where we're going to tackle the gaps between what buyers need and what sellers deliver. This is an open discussion with real decision makers about what they want from sellers. Hear from leaders in your buyers industries as they share insights and actionable takeaways that you can use immediately. The version virtual event is Tuesday October 21, 9am Pacific. You can reserve your spot today with the link in the show notes.

[A]

Completing it then next one to to get is engagement rate. Like how deep you know are they starting in the course and then that's your funnel, your engagement funnel. So your first three lessons are getting completed. Do you have that like a lot of these courses don't have that. You know these systems. So do you have just pass fail completion or do you actually know where people are dropping off in the course Then the third one I'd say is actually doing some kind of manual invention like I was talking about with ratings and quizzing to see how they're doing on the completion or like understanding and retaining the information. But on the soft skill, the really only thing you can do is like connect your data back to a delta between the result that you want. So, and that's so hard, but it can be done. So like we have a system where you can send us outside data, outside, like live data of sales or increase in referrals or whatever, back to a reps profile. And so you can start, you can say, like, let's say in software we have tools like intercom or whatever. Okay, you have people that aren't using this feature, then you send out messaging. Okay, like what goal are you trying to improve? Number of people using this feature. Right. And so it's the same thing except the reps are the users of your company. So.

[B]

Absolutely makes. Makes perfect sense. Well, next, next stage of the podcast here is sales in 60 seconds. So quick questions, quick answers. First question. What are some signs that a company's training program is failing to engage the reps?

[A]

I mean, lack of like. Well, when it's required, it's hard because if it's required, then you, you don't know if they're just requiring. You're just doing it to check a box. But I would look at the difference between your required, absolutely required training and your elective training. And if you're electran, elective training is completely abysmal. That means that you are relying 100% on, on a big stick and that's it. And you don't have any other skill in terms of, you know, getting engagement.

[B]

Have you seen a shift in how reps prefer to learn in recent years? I just feel like so much has changed in the way people are structured to deal with content. In the last, you know, TikTok, it wasn't even a thing five years ago and now it's huge. Things like, you know, just a short form video engage, super engaging content. Like to train my sales reps, do I have to like, put on a sprint, know a dancer? Like, what's the.

[A]

I want to see that, Steve, come on.

[B]

No, nobody wants to see that. The what, what, what is how. What changes have you seen and how can we deal with that?

[A]

I mean, number one is whether the reps know it or not, like they're susceptible to a good hook. They're susceptible to the good, you know, first three or four minutes of a video, like you know, they might say, oh, it's business, I gotta, I gotta pay attention. But they still have their brain, like their psychology is used to something being more exciting. That's why we have fruit fly level attention span, because there's people out there that are really, really good. Have you ever seen one of these Instagram videos where like 10 hooks you need to use and they rip one off and explain this hook, right? And if you get into social media marketing, you start to see these, these things are the type of things that trainers need to learn and use in their training. So biggest shift is the bar has gone way up in terms of getting people's attention and you got to get good, you got to like brush up on your skills there. Don't start when you start a video. Start with what they get, then unfurl. Don't start with an introduction and a summary and say nine words that don't matter. Start with what they get. So that's a big shift. Another shift is that reps are just getting way more like they're just expect. We're in the new wave of the second Google, which is just answering everything with AI. So we got the Google. We were like, yeah, mom, dad, don't worry about it, I can Google it later, right? I don't need to know it in my head. I don't need to know where Portugal is. I can just google it, right? And so we were like, of course you need to know where Portugal is because you might be in a conversation at dinner and you need to understand what. So you don't look like an idiot, right? But now what is expecting is that reps are going to go, I don't need to know all of this upfront. Stop it. I can just ask AI between doors a question to get an answer. And you company better have a way for me to ask with AI because that's, that's an expectation is going to come. So it's more like instead of teaching a man to fish, it's like, no, just give me the fisherman that will be in the boat with me and I'll ask him questions.

[B]

That makes sense. What would you say the biggest mistake or mistakes that you see companies make when they're trying to teach their reps things and when they design their training programs or when they give their training programs. How do we screw this up?

[A]

Again, biggest mistakes. I know I'm repeating myself, but again, lack of sales. It's just a lack of selling. Lack of. You know what? It is a bigger problem. It's just treating Your salespeople totally different than you would your own prospects and customers. If you apply what you do with your customers and your prospects and you treat your reps like customers, everything kind of like the psychology kind of starts to line up. So, you know, if you're, if you're talking to a prospect, you're not going to say, you're going to start with what's, what's in it for them. You're never going to be like, well, let me hope. Make sure that you fit our icp. Let's make sure that you have all of these things. No, like, you're going to answer their questions first and make them feel comfortable and, you know, get them. It's just chip on the shoulder that business owners have where they're like, I didn't get that when I was getting hazed through Allstate. Right. You should just have grit. You should just have grit. It's not that the rep doesn't have grit. It's just they have three other opportunities where they figured this out already. So that's the thing that no, people aren't thinking about.

[B]

Well, I read some stat and I forget exactly what it was, but it was something like in gen Z, like one, some. It was a big number. It was like 60% or something. Enjoy watching like Netflix and other streams while they do their jobs. And that's one reason why they like, you know, working from home so much. It works really well for them because they get to watch TV while they do their jobs. And that's how they studied. They what? They studied sitting on a couch, like in front of a tv. And yeah, and now they'd like to do their jobs that way too. It's, I'm like, you can't be doing as well when you, if you're not focused. But maybe they can. Hey, I don't know. I doubt it, but totally disagree that they can.

[A]

I think that that multitasking is a total myth.

[B]

I, I, I know that. I know I can't do that.

[A]

Like, they study. Even music with that have lyrics can affect your, your, your concentration level.

[B]

Yeah, I, I can listen to music as long as there's no, no lyrics. And it also can't be that engaging. Like, it can't be Beethoven. It has to be like, boring.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

You know, yeah, like even like good classic music. I'm like, no, now I'm paying attention to this. This, this part's really interesting. So I, I need to like, you know, be, be, be, be zoomed in to just, you know, I I, I, I could certainly never do that, but I have seen people that can function in that way. But I, I suspect they would be functioning at a higher level if they weren't doing things like that. But you know, I guess it, that's a big challenge I think was just the, the expectation, you know, if, if I certainly couldn't have watched those really, really dry videos about the insurance industry for two weeks straight. If, if every, you know, 24 seconds my phone was vibrating. One of my friends was texting me and I was texting him back or I was checking out a really cool if, if, if while I was watching the, the dry insurance video I was, I also was watching, you know, you know, I don't know, some, some great show on, on Netflix streaming. I, I don't think but, but I, I do think that these are big challenges as we, as we seek to teach people things is that they, they have different expectations about how they should learn and what, what's okay and just how, you know, remote and hybrid sales training I think is that a lot of, a lot of training gets done remote or hybrid or in a corner of the office where, where you, you can't really see him anyway and no one's watching them and you know, I mean Allstate literally. I, I, I don't know if it was a broom closet. It was like this in my mind it's like a, a six by eight room with bad carpet. But I mean maybe it was bigger, I don't know. But it was like a little TV you know, like, like a 12 inch TV black and white, probably like super tiny.

[A]

Like a CRT. Like the one. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Little, yeah, like, like fuzzy. I, I, I don't but like certainly like for, if someone, if you were training someone remotely on your dry stuff and, and, and they're also watching Sons of Anarchy on, on Netflix. It's, it's just, it's going to be it. What are some various, how would you advise people a, to deal with the distance? What are the best practices for remote or hybrid type sales training situations that you would think would make a company get the results and get people up to speed the way they want them to?

[A]

Yeah, so one is something that I haven't touched on yet is try to make the hybrid or the remote training feel more like a group of people is training you or that you are part of a group that you just can't see yet. And so this is like where you've seen in a lot of a company or a lot of community Based, they do like academy or cohort based onboarding. So they'll say, hey, you know, you are in a group that's going to get, that's going to be put together. You're not launching individually. You can't just leave out of the group. Like you're going to be part of this group that's going to launch at this time. And so if you are hiring, sometimes the best thing to do is even though your content might be evergreen, make them feel like they're part of a group of a cohort that's launching together. Because then you get that, you get to use third party and social proof as part of the way to increase that conformity. Okay. So you get that leaderboard that's just people that are like the list of people that were in your cohort and you care about those people, right? You know, whether you've met them or not. Like, okay, now I know this person. You've met them on the zoom. You saw their face on the zoom. And I can't hide, right? So I could, I'm. So that's a way, that's a tactic that you can use to increase conversions and you see that in people building communities all the time. So that's, that's a really helpful tip. And again, like I said, more touches, more what's in it for them. More, more selling, more positioning.

[B]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. When I went through IBM's sales training and this, you know, this is right after business school and they used to have this program, it was like a, you were, you were basically a. Trained a sales trainee for a year and you were also working the sales job. I think, you know, it was kind of, they, they onboarded you during that time. You were a full, doing a full, full time sales job by the end. But the first time especially it was like first, I don't know, four months or something. It's probably half training, half doing the job and, and it just kind of, the training eased out over the course of the year. But it was a year long program and, and they would fly us to different. And it was, it was the way you were describing it, it was an us, it was a cohort that FL from all around the country and they fly everyone to some IBM office in rural New York or you know, down in, you know, Georgia or wherever and, and, and you'd be there for a week or, or sometimes two weeks and, and just in, in classes during the day and doing, you know, a lot of doing trainings and learning about sales Learning different strategies, different, different things. And, and that was super valuable. I do think that as you're, as you're saying, the cohort element was really important. Like, we all knew each other really well.

[A]

I mean, you can commiserate together about the hard parts and the challenges, even the stuff you don't like. It creates social capital.

[B]

Yeah, well, learning about servers was nobody's cup of tea. Right. Speeds and feeds is never going to be exciting, but fortunately the cloud made it, so we never have to understand any of that again. Thank you. You. Thank you, Bezos. We, we appreciate you. We appreciate the question, but yeah, that. I think your, your point's really important there. Yeah, that's, that definitely was true. Was true for me.

[A]

I was going to ask you about the Allstate, you know, content. I mean, I mean, how much of that Allstate content did you use in the first month on the job?

[B]

I think a lot of it was actually pretty, pretty valuable. I mean, they, they, you know, they're a huge company and, and they're, they have to teach everyone kind of similar things. And so I think they had invested in, in making these videos and they, they were, I mean, they were very dry, but they, you know, it's. Who wants to learn about insurance? Nobody. But, you know, it, it was, it was, I think they had done it. They were just. For them, it wasn't like, you know, it was how to, how insurance works at our company that you just started at.

[A]

So the encounter is a sickness, I will say, like, or it's a symptom of a problem that I can't put my finger on. But, you know, back then, because you had that conformity, because you had your attention, like you're going to learn it all and, and you're going to learn stuff you didn't really need right away. But then you get to that point, you know, you. Oh, yeah, I remember that in that video, right? And then you have a bigger knowledge graph in your head and people are starting now because we're having to make sure that we keep this attention. So attention, the fight for attention is killing the ability to create a bigger knowledge graph earlier before you even need it.

[B]

So that makes sense.

[A]

Now you have people, like, where they get stuck, like you're on a conversation and they just had enough attention to learn the bits to start to the start the role. And I still advocate for that because that's the way the world works. But, you know, at some point they're going to go, oh, I didn't take the time to fully understand this whole system at its core so that it can improv a little bit with this prospect. I can't because all I know is what was on the nose in my little attention vignette.

[B]

Yeah. Well as you say this, I just think you should be nice to high school teachers because I feel like they've got a really hard job these days. Like it was hard when I was in high school but now, now I feel, I, I feel like it's gotten harder.

[A]

Yeah. I watched the social video of this in this teacher going, you don't understand. It's like I'm talking to people and nothing's going through. Like I just, but I mean that's probably age old problem that every generation.

[B]

I mean my, my teachers probably felt that way too but I, I didn't have a super computer in my pocket with every cool video ever made on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean passing notes, they have cell phones. Can you imagine you can pass notes with anyone in the whole school or you're firmed at another school. Like it's a wild, it's got to be a wild thing right now. But well lesson, lesson. We should, we should, we should be appreciate appreciative for what those people are doing because that's, we think we have hard jobs now that's a hard job.

[A]

Person to interview.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There is. You know how does a teacher once.

[B]

And teaching is sales. Right. I mean I, I, I've, I, I, I think that would be a great training ground for sales being like a, a seventh grade math and science teacher. I mean you, you know how to sell. You're, you're like it is my job to sell you on the concept of algebra for the next like that is. Let me tell you how you're going to use this triggered al Geometry. So there's triangles right. And it's going to be super important in your life the angles of these triangles.

[A]

I, how.

[B]

I don't know. Let me. Yeah.

[A]

At some point you're gonna do something in your life where you have like a, you have two known constants and one not variable and you're gonna have to figure that out.

[B]

I have never understood why we teach trigonometry and not statistics. I use statistics all the time and like just the way I think about the world and just business and, and I, I have never once used anything I learned in trigonometry. Like not once. I even calculus, I even calculus I've run into a couple times in my adult life. But trig, which comes first? Never, never, never ran into that maybe I just don't build enough triangle.

[A]

Yeah. Like my wife is an architect, she uses trig all the time, you know, that makes sense.

[B]

But, but does she or does the, does the software does the trick for her, I bet the software, yeah. Chad's doing the. She's not, she's not so good toing. Yeah, you're right.

[A]

Like the 345 rule, you know, like it's very.

[B]

I call, I call on the Pythagorean theorem on this one.

[A]

But now, hey, you know those, those algebra buffs are like linear algebra, you know, matrices, like building, building AI stuff.

[B]

So see, I don't build it, I just ask it questions about what temperature I should cook meat at.

[A]

But yes, exactly.

[B]

So in your opinion, actionable takeaway? What could. If a company was thinking about their sales training right now and you had one minute to give them one piece of advice, what would that piece of advice be? Given all your experience, experience in sales training over the years.

[A]

Yeah. Don't just make training for the sake of it. Don't take any of my advice for the sake of it. Just look at. Just take first principles, problems. Just take it all in. First principles. So all training should review or don't make training for the sake of making training to check off a box or have a person that's like your clo or whatever. Just start with what goals do we have as a business? And that's why a trainer should get involved. Involved like at the, at the. If they can just be a wallflower on the, on the, the board meeting or something like that. Just say what are we trying to accomplish here as a company and how are the people that I train part of that? Get very clear on that and say let's work backwards. What has to be true for these people to accomplish that? What skills, what competencies do they have to have? And just work backwards. Just like we would work on a sales number in terms of what you want to hit. Right. Like I have to talk to these many people, work backwards, build a model for what, what the. And then test for the gaps. Just test for the gaps of the training and prove your hypothesis. Right. I'm going to test really hard questions. I'm going to try to test on these concepts or I'm going to do an interview and find out like they're lacking these skills. Then you've got your thesis for like what you're going to go do with somebody or you know, go do with the group. You've got buy in, you've got everything you need to get in your investment because it's all what the company wants in the first place. Right. Then go build. Then go say what are the objectives? Why would reps not agree to listen to this? What's in it for them? Build that out, that's your sales and marketing on it. Then tease it out. Don't even build the training. Tease it out and get response and say this is coming, okay, like product marketing. And then build out the training, launch it and, and set it like set a delta of like what the number was and see if you, you move the delta on that number. That's what like skin in the game training looks like versus the training. I've seen a lot in corporations which is I, my job is to train on these things, check a box and do compliance and say people liked it.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. When I was at Google, they, that was the training. It was very, they, they had all, everyone in sales they had, you know, go do a presentation to the head of training, sales, training. But like it was, you know, a presentation on all the products that we sold. It was just like, you know, take, take them through and, and they would give objections and you know, yada yada. So it was, it was kind of a role playing pitch situation that lasted like an hour but it was, it was very compliancy. Right. It was just like yes, they, they passed or, or they need more, more training. And you know that, that report went to our manager, you know, their, their opinions on what we were good at, what we were bad at, that sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah, people in training are in a hard position because frankly I've seen a lot of content and a lot of do this to make and make this and a lot of work on their end and sometimes the things that they're doing in training aren't even connected to the goals that the company has for the quarter or for the year. And then it's like now and so you wonder why you treat me like a cost center versus an investment because nobody's like, it's kind of set up to fail in some cases when training should really be like no, if I'm really important then I'm going to know, know what the goals are of the company and I'm going to be aligned with them and we're going to train on that. Not this thing over here that has nothing to do with the goals of the company. So yeah, I mean typically when there's a recession training is the first thing to hit and there's a reason for that.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. All that's a great time to sharpen the sword because you may have to do less with more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As we, as we look out over 2025 here it's, it's April when we're recording this. April 2025.

[A]

So it went by so fast. Q1 was right.

[B]

A blur.

[A]

Gone. Yeah, it was a blur.

[B]

Well, I will try to summarize what you've taught us today here in two minutes or so. So companies need to sell their training more to their reps before they get into the training. They need to share the why and share the what's in it for them. At the start you want to explain the whole sales training process and all the steps that the reps will go through so they can see the big picture. And then break up your sales training into parts and think about the pacing of those parts before you do any training. Throw out some low ball questions and some hardball questions to see where different reps are at. And customize their training based on their current knowledge level so that everyone's engaged. This builds learner trust because they know their time won't be wasted, you know, training on things they already know, which nobody likes to do. Highlight your best reps on your team and have them teach your other reps. Use their understanding as an example and, and they can better relate to your team and people listen to them because they're in the same role and that can really increase engagement. It Gamification can be very helpful early on in training to identify people who are really invested in the job. You can put some hyper on the gamification and, and, and, and see who wins. It makes it more fun, more engagement. Engaging in general feedback is huge. Take, take feedback during the process and, and then be able to act on it immediately. Want to focus on the, the long tail of training. Make sure you don't only focus on the initial training but instead follow up and, and bring up the training over time. Weave it back in. Sales training should include a completion rating and also an engagement rating. Understand as, as you evaluate your sales trainings. Right. So understand where people are, are dropping off because that's super important to know what needs to be improved. Right. This has been super, super helpful. We really appreciate your time Stephen. Where can our listeners read more about your work? How do they reach out to you? How do they get to know more about you and what you do?

[A]

Yeah, I mean the best thing is to check out conveyor.com if you're interested in learning more about our processes. We have a guide there you can register for so conveyor.com click on get Pricing and demo on the top and you can go through to learn about, you know, how we do things. That's the best place.

[B]

Fantastic. Well, this has been a great episode of the Outside Sales Talk. If you've enjoyed the show, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to this. That's super helpful. If you work in field sales, you'll love to badger map helps you sell more, drive less. If you can think of any other sales reps that would benefit from learning more about about designing training programs, other other sales managers that would learn more or could use this. Definitely forward this episode along to him and take care. Until next time. Thanks for coming, Stephen. Really appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you Steve.