Why Active Listening is a Top Sales Skill - Outside Sales Talk with Roger Martin

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Active Listening is a Top Sales Skill"

Podcast: Outside Sales Talk
Host: Steve Benson
Guest: Roger Martin (Co-founder & CEO of Rockbox Fitness and Beam Light Sauna)
Date: June 6, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode explores why active listening is an essential, often overlooked sales skill, especially in outside sales roles. Steve Benson talks with Roger Martin, a veteran sales leader and business founder, about how active listening transforms sales conversations, drives better understanding of customer needs, and leads to more sustainable success. Roger shares tangible tactics, field-tested strategies, and actionable advice for honing this crucial sales skill.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Active Listening in Sales?

• Active listening means being fully present and focused on the prospect — not preoccupied with your next pitch or response.
• It transforms a sales call from a scripted pitch into a dialogue rooted in curiosity and real problem-solving.
  • (01:23) “Active listening is being diligent and intentional in how you have that sales conversation. You ask a question and then, believe it or not, you just stop and listen...that’s hard work.”
    — Roger Martin

2. Doing Less Talking, More Listening

• The most successful sales professionals flip the dynamic so the prospect does 80% of the talking.
• “Say less and sell more”—asking probing questions and letting the client talk uncovers deeper needs and builds trust.
  • (29:13) “Everybody’s heard the 80/20 rule…you have two ears and one mouth, but most people don’t do that.”
    — Roger Martin

3. The Power of Pauses and Silence

• Mastering silence and strategic pacing compels the prospect to fill the space, encouraging more honest and revealing responses.
  • (04:30) “If I were to ask a question about Badger…I’d get a little quieter, a little slower…What are your plans for the next 3 years?…You’re going to hang on my every word...”
    — Roger Martin
• Use pauses and silence to show genuine care, not just to steer the conversation.

4. Tonality and Body Language

• How you say something often matters more than what you say.
• Vary your volume and tone for concern, excitement, or curiosity to guide the conversation and reflect genuine engagement.
• Nonverbal signals, like open palms, nodding, and putting your hand on your heart, show openness and empathy—even over the phone, gesturing energizes your voice.
  • (06:52) “I call it the puppy dog…If the listeners are…not watching on YouTube, I’ll turn my head, I tilt my head like a puppy dog because it shows people, like I’m really interested. I’m genuinely curious.”
    — Roger Martin
  • (09:42) “Even if you’re on the phone…use your hands…have your hands up and open…showing you’re open, you’re receiving. I put my hand on my heart—‘wow, that sounds like a tough year’…”
    — Roger Martin

5. Role Play and Practice

• Elite athletes, like Tom Brady, practice relentlessly—sales pros must do the same with role plays and honest self-evaluation.
  • (16:35) “Have a culture of role play. Record yourself. Nobody should use manipulation...Persuasion and influence is about helping them see what’s best for them.”
    — Roger Martin
• Use your phone to record calls, speeches, and even solo practice to identify where you can slow down, vary tone, and improve body language.

6. In-the-Moment Self-Check

• Focus intentionally on one skill at a time (e.g., tone, pacing, silence) in each conversation, just like working on one element of a golf swing.
• If you realize mid-call you missed something, own it:
  • (20:04) “I’m so sorry, I was in my own head…Can you please just run that back for me? Because this is really important to me…”
    — Roger Martin
• Use reflective questions like “Just so I’m understanding you, what I heard you say was…” to stay present and clarify.

7. Old School Note-taking vs. Technology

• Taking notes with pen and paper (vs. phone or laptop) signals genuine focus, builds rapport, and avoids the distraction or suspicion a screen can cause.
  • (25:39) “Never confuse efficient with effective…putting pen to paper—if you get a handwritten note in the mail from your salesperson…you’re going to send that guy some business…”
    — Roger Martin
• Follow up with handwritten notes for memorability.

8. Specific Active Listening Tactics

• Mirror and paraphrase: Repeat prospect’s last few words as a question (Chris Voss–style mirroring).
  • (31:10) “Just repeat back the last three words...raise your tonality…it keeps you present and gets them to go deeper.”
    — Roger Martin
• Frame the close as a review of mutual discoveries, then confirm with “fair enough?” to ease into decision-making.

9. Conversion and Objection-Handling

• Active listening in the discovery phase uncovers and resolves objections before the close.
  • (32:32) “The active listening is going to make the conversion…so much easier because they themselves have identified the issues…”
    — Roger Martin
• Use active listening to assemble their own words into the solution and the close nearly sells itself.

10. Attention Spans & Earning Attention

• Good salespeople don’t blame short attention spans but strive to deliver more value and engagement.
  • (00:00, 37:06) “The attention span is still there, you just gotta earn it.”
    — Roger Martin

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Memorable Quotes

• On why active listening matters:

  “Active listening really makes sales so much more…The word sales equals help.”
  — Roger Martin [01:23]

• On tone & engagement:

  “If you want to really show concern…lower your voice, slow down…use a curious tone to pull more information out.”
  — Roger Martin [06:52–08:50]

• On in-person vs. phone sales:

  “Being phony shows up so much more in person than it does over the phone.”
  — Steve Benson [23:19]

• On making commitments to oneself:

  “Every time we make a promise to ourself and we do that, our self-confidence goes up. Don’t make big promises, stack small habits.”
  — Roger Martin [44:20]

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Useful Tactics at a Glance

• Slow down and use silence: Slow pacing draws attention, signals sincerity. [04:30]
• Vary tonality: Use concern, curiosity, excitement, and volume to match and guide the prospect’s energy. [06:52]
• Gestures—even on phone: Body language impacts vocal tone and engagement, even when unseen. [09:42]
• Role play and record: Video and review calls or practice for honest self-evaluation. [17:35]
• Pen and paper for notes: Conveys focused attention and respect. [25:39]
• Repeat-back technique: Paraphrase or mirror to deepen dialogue. [31:10]
• “Fair enough?” at the close: Smooth and disarming way to confirm agreement. [35:54]
• Stack small improvement habits: Practice and build on one thing at a time. [41:39]

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Quickfire Q&A (Sales in 60 Seconds)

• Top tip for active listening virtually:

  “Record yourself…and listen back.” [38:52]

• Biggest mistakes when practicing active listening:

  “Practice doesn’t make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect…Role play until you can’t get it wrong.” [39:21]

• Checking for comprehension:

  “Always go back and ask the customer: ‘Did I miss anything? Does this make sense?’” [40:33]

• Top wellness tip:

  “If you want to make changes, make small promises to yourself and keep them…Don’t make lots of changes at once.” [41:39]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:23 – What active listening looks and sounds like in sales
• 04:30 – Using silence and pauses tactically
• 06:52 – The power of tonality and “puppy dog” curiosity
• 09:42 – Body language and openness in communication
• 16:35 – The role of practice (role playing, recording)
• 20:04 – Real-time corrections and reflective listening
• 25:39 – Effectiveness of pen-and-paper note-taking
• 29:13 – “Say less and sell more”
• 31:10 – Mirroring technique for active listening
• 32:32 – Converting prospects using active listening
• 35:54 – Objections naturally resolved through discovery
• 37:06 – On attention spans and earning engagement
• 38:52 – Sales in 60 Seconds Q&A
• 41:39 – Wellness, habits, and micro-promises

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a masterclass on active listening as a modern sales superpower—with practical advice for making every conversation more genuine, collaborative, and effective. Roger’s actionable tips around role play, tonality, nonverbal cues, and mindful self-improvement can elevate any salesperson’s results.

Connect with Roger:

• LinkedIn: Roger Martin
• Social: @RealRogerMartin
• Book: An Insider's Guide to Business Secrets from an Entrepreneur's Playbook (Available on Amazon)

Host: Steve Benson, Badger Maps

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Transcript

[A]

And the quality necessary to keep someone's attention is much higher. That's why you have to be better at your job, better at active listening, better at pulling, getting them to do the talking. But the attention span is still there. It's just, you gotta earn it. You gotta earn it.

[B]

This is Outside Sales Talk, the best podcast for outside salespeople. I'm your host, Steve Benson and we're here to chat with the world's top sales experts so that you can get their best sales tactics to level up your game. Welcome back to Outside Sales Talk. Today we're going to be talking about why active listening is a top sales skill. I've got Roger Martin with me. Welcome to the show, Roger.

[A]

Glad to be here and I appreciate the opportunity.

[B]

Absolutely. By way of introduction, Roger is the co founder and CEO of two national franchise brands, Rockbox Fitness and Beam Light Sauna, as well as various other businesses. He's built a 30 year career in sales, marketing and C level leadership with his Thrive More platform and brands. Roger is also the host of the Thrive More with Roger Martin podcast where he covers topics based on wellness, health and more. So first of all, first question, Roger, what is active listening look like and sound like to you?

[A]

Well, it looks like, and sounds like people signing contracts because you've closed the deal. That's what it looks like. Right. But for your listeners, you know, just, just a little bit more dovetail to that intro. I, I spent the first 25 years of my career in pharmaceutical sales, pharmaceutical sales management and marketing, from Fortune 50 companies to working for a private equity firm. And my entire career was built on leading salesforces. And then as I've gone into business for myself about seven, eight years ago, started Rockbox Fitness and then later Beamlight Sauna. You know, my job is to teach my franchisees. We have 60 open locations for Rockbox and we're about to have 75 open for Beam by the end of next year. It's teaching my franchisees how to sell and how to train their teams to sell to. These are memberships. Of course we'd be, we'd be selling in those instances. So I've done it all sold, you know, everything from a $200 membership to a $15 million contract when I was in pharma. So it's kind of everything in between, but it's really all the same. It's really all the same. You have a prospect on one side of the table and you on the other and you want to actively understand what their true needs are. And a Lot of times they're not even sure what they really, really want. They certainly, a lot of times don't know what they need. They may know what they want, but they don't know what they need. And of course, our product or service should hopefully be able to fill that need, and if not, we shouldn't sell them. So a simple answer to your very straightforward question is active listening is being diligent in how and intentional and how you have that sales conversation. So you're going to ask a question and then, believe it or not, you're just gonna stop and listen to what the answer is versus what am I gonna say next? And if they say this, what do I say? And if they say that, what do I say? That's hard work. Active listening really makes sales so much more. It flows better and just so much more enjoyable, I believe, as a profession, because then the word sales equals help versus sales equals, you know, I'm trying to get the deal, or I'm trying to, you know, ring the cash register, because you will get the deal, and you're ring the cash register if you're actually listening and understanding and asking checking questions and using your voice. And we can talk about this, you know, in the podcast, but, you know, I'm huge on training teams to, to use tonality, to use pauses, and to use silence, because silence and pauses can be so powerful in showing the prospect that you care that you're listening. And it's want to know truly what they have to say versus too many salespeople. Again, what am I going to say next? And I've got my pitch, and I've got 37 slides, and gosh darn it, we're going through all 37, you know, and that's, that's just kind of the old way and very outdated way to, to sell in today's market.

[B]

Absolutely, yeah. Talk a little more about how, how and when you use silence and, and pauses. I think that's so important.

[A]

Yeah. So I always. I 1. When you're, when you're speaking to someone. I'm speaking to Steve right now, Steven and I, and I'm talking about Badger and his company. And if I were to ask a question about Badger, I would want to get a little quieter, I want to get a little slower and say, Steve, what are your plans for, let's say, the next three years for your business? If you could grow that business to a level that would exceed your expectations, what would that look like? You're going to hang on my every word as I slow down what I'm going to talk about you and your business, not what I do and what we do, but you know, watch movies, watch comedians, watch great actors, how they command the use of space in language. And that's so powerful. Yet you know, we all have this vision of, of, you know, the, the slick talking used car salesperson. And there's a lot of great used car salespeople by the way, but they always get lumped in there and you know that just that they're talking fast and if I keep talking fast, the, the prospect, I'll just, I'll razzle dazzle them, you know, and then we'll close them. And that's a, that's just not an effective way, especially today because people, the Internet has democratized information so people get these tactics. You know, if you're still using feel felt found, you're using an outdated tactic that people know already, they've heard that you have to be genuine. You know, wow, you know, shocker alert. You, you actually have to care and be genuine and authentic as you're talking with your prospect. Because if you're not, they're going to feel that because all day long they're scrolling or they're watching and they're seeing what authenticity looks like and what BS looks like. And so it's just, it's a new age for selling. I love it because that's going to separate, you know, the men from the boys and the women from the girls. For the people who are really truly sales professionals versus just product slingers.

[B]

Absolutely. And when you say be genuine, does tonality play a role that too?

[A]

100%. That's a great question because if I were to ask you or, or say, you know, Steve, have you hit all your goals for what you want to achieve with Badger in 2023? That's a very different approach than Steve in 2023. If you were to rank your products success, your, your service's success, where, where would you put that on a scale of maybe 1 to 10? I, you know, I had this, I call it the puppy dog. You know, if the listeners are, are listening and not watching on YouTube, you know, I literally will turn my head, I tilt my head like a puppy dog because it shows people, like I'm really interested. I'm, I'm, I'm genuinely curious about how has the success been of your company in 2023 so we can talk about that. And I'm going to lower my voice and I'm going to use a concern tone like have you hit Your goals because you may have, you may have not. You may say we crushed it. And then I'm going to say that's awesome. I will raise my tone back up like, see, that's fantastic. That is fantastic. What are your, what's your next goal for your business? Since you've already achieved your 2023 goal? I'm going to take it in a different direction. Because you're excited about your results. I should be excited about your results. Now we're going to Future cast into 24, 25, 26 to see if I can truly help you. It's, it's when maybe you haven't hit the goal that we're going to stay in a concern tone because we're concerned about helping you fix and grow your business. So tonality 100%. It's. I find too often I've just coached thousands of salespeople. One, they're too loud and I don't understand that. Like literally I'm talking volume wise. They just speak too loudly and I, I wonder if that's because they, they want to make sure they're heard. They're trying to impose their will. And this is men and women. Men and women. I, I've just found that when you're, when you're talking at full volume, when you're giving a presentation or you're talking at full volume, especially on a one on one, you're not showing concern, you're not showing this genuine understanding. You're dominating the conversation. Which is, is not a way to get to, you know, to get more sales. So you have to vary that, that tone, that volume and the tonality, the concerned tone, the excited tone, the. Huh, tell me more like the curious tone. Like using a curious tone is, is one of the easiest ways to pull more information out of the prospect so that you can truly help them or at least decide if you can.

[B]

You, you mentioned body language right there. You talk about how, what the role that body language is and what, what role does that play in active listening. And you talked about tilting your head. What, what are some other ways to incorporate body language when you're speaking with prospect prospects?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know those, those exactly statistics. I'm sure many of your listeners will. But you know that it's like 7% is what you say. You know, 38 is how you say it and the other 50 some percent is, is body language. And you know, I would, you know, even on the phone. Actually Steve, I would say even if you're on the phone and you watch me right now, I'm. I guess I'm out of frame, but. But you know, I'm talking with my hands. I'm gesticulating because I can, I can emote more emotion and get more excited as I use my hands, but I'm going to always have my hands in an upward palm up, you know, unless I'm doing a gesture with him or something. Because I'm going to show that I'm open, I'm receiving, I'm really listening. I will put my hand on my heart at times and go, wow, that sounds like that was a tough, tough year. You know, I want to show that. And it's not. I'm not trying to manipulate anybody. Like, this is persuasion and influence, by the way. And I. Any podcast I do, on my own podcast, I will. I am so deliberate. Especially when we do franchisee training here. Nobody should use manipulation like that is. That is wrong and you'll have a very short career. Manipulation is when you're trying to get somebody to do something that helps you that's good for you but bad for them. You know, where persuasion influences. I'm just trying to help you understand the situation and see the situation from a frame of reference. You may not currently so that you can then make the best informed decision. That may be buying for me, that may not be buying for me, but you'll have all the information and understand your situation in its full breadth. So you can make an informed decision. Because the goal is of any salesperson. I hope everyone listening knows this and takes us to heart. The goal of sales is to get the prospect is you, you want to help, period. But if you can help them, it's to get them to a decision point. Either yes or no. But, well, hey, let me take it back to my committee. Or hey, let's circle back after the holidays or hey, let's do this or hey, let's wait another three weeks or hey, send me another report that's going nowhere and it feels good to the salesperson because it feels like forward momentum, but it's not. You need to get to a decision, yes or no. And either one's fine, but let's get to a decision. So what information do you need? So again, to answer your question around body language, it's the steepling of the hands when you're asking a very specific question that, that, that has an intention around it and shows that it's. You've thought about it. It's the opening of the hands and that gesture of I'm Receiving what you're telling me. And I understand, I'd like to know more, you know, what does that look like to you? And you'll point to your eye, right? Like, what if you're tra. Let's make this up. Let's say you have a sales training company and you're trying to sell software to them or something, you know, well, when you're training sales representatives and that's your core business, when a sales rep graduates from your program and they're outstanding, what. What does that look like? And it's, you know, it's not so obvious. You don't poke yourself in the eye, but just kind of touch the side, you know. You know, what does that sound like? Touch your ear when you think about what you want to be and you just touch your temple. And again, these things, you have to practice them, but then they become second nature because if you're, if you're having to think for all this, it's going to look really awkward, as you can imagine. But, you know, start with one thing. Start with when you, when you're listening, you know, a little tilt of the head. And again, listen. Just genuinely listen or pick, you know, hey, I really understand. I. I feel for you. Touch your heart. Start with one of those gestures and then you can build upon those. But again, I know I keep. Sound like a broken record. You have to do it in a sense that makes sense, that flows, that almost seems seamless to the prospect because if not, it'll look like you're trying to manipulate them and you're not. What you're trying to do is get crystal clear on. I'm asking you what you think that looks like. I'm asking you what. What are you thinking right now? I'm showing. I. Oh, man, that's. That. I. I feel you. That hurts. Let's. Let's get you out of that, that pain point with your business right now. That's going to be genuine. You know, if you're trying to do all these crazy hand gestures because you're, you're trying to use the stuff that you haven't prepared and practiced, then you know, that's, that's a recipe for disaster. And I will say everybody listening in their business should have a culture of role play. A culture of role play. Whether you're the sales manager, even if you're the sales representatives or sales representative or account manager, have a culture of role play in your profession. Meaning you will tape your. Everybody's got an iPhone or whatever, you know, smartphone, so nobody has an excuse. You've got a voice recorder right in front of you. You have a video camera in your car. Role play a, a call in your car before you go in. If you, if you have any idea what the prospect you think is going to say, or if they've been difficult or they keep pushing it off, role play that out loud. Videotape yourself, audiotape yourself and listen to it. And you'll hear if you're using tonality, you'll hear if you're slightly pausing and you'll hear if you ask that question, Steve, what is your goal? And just get silent. You'll hear that where for some reason every athlete, including LeBron James and Tom Brady and you know, any, any elite athlete, they practice, practice, practice, and when they miss a shot, they go back and they figure out why we're in sales. We always say, well, that prospect was tough or they don't know what they're doing, or they don't have the budget versus okay, what can I do better? How can I, you know, help that customer in a better way? How, what did I do wrong? You know, when the archer misses the target, they don't look at the target, you know, they look at themselves and say, okay, geez, what, what did I miscalculate there with a wind and, and, and the fall of the arrow and all that. We're in sales. I have found my experience and I've managed thousands of representatives. They're much more quick to blame the prospect, the circumstances, something else than just say, I got to get better at my profession. I got to get better and, and doing that. And obviously if they're listening to this podcast, they're probably in the top 10% because they're, they're trying to get better. So I, I, you know, I, I, I congratulate anybody just listening to a podcast like yours because they're putting in the effort, but they still have to have, they still have to practice and have that culture of role play. That is until the day they retire, they should still be role playing. And I'm a CEO of two companies, actually more but like two big companies. And I just role played yesterday with my VP of, of business development, for lack of a better term for our industry on how to handle a situation. Like we literally role played in his office and, and he's a very well accomplished guy and think I am too. And we sat there and just role played it back and forth. What if he, what if he says this? What if he, what if he says that? Oh, hey man, if you say like that, I'll tell you how that's going to impact me. And you know, but yet we'll find, I'll find a lot of my representatives or even franchisees, staff, they won't role play because it's almost, it almost feels beneath them. But man, it's actors practice, athletes practice, salespeople should practice.

[B]

I, I couldn't agree more. I think it's super valuable to, to record phone calls, record meetings, record, record yourself role playing. I. In business school, we, when they were teaching us to give better public speaking, you know, there's public speaking class and they videoed us. And you learn, you learn a ton from seeing yourself on video and the way you're standing, what are you doing with your hands? There's just, there's too many things to think about in the real world if you, if you don't get kind of that like out of body experience.

[A]

100%. 100%. And I would recommend any salesperson either take Toastmasters or volunteer at the city council, I don't know, wherever you can, or your church, whatever to do, get as much public speaking experience as possible to do exactly what you just said and put your iPhone on cheap little $10 tripod in the back and just videotape it. And then watch your pace, watch how fast you talk, how much you use tonality, pauses and silence. If you do, or maybe you don't. And you should watch how you use the stage because that is no different than how you will use a physical space when you're selling. If it's a one on one, just, you know, around a boardroom table or something, or just in somebody's office. So I, I'm a huge, huge proponent of if you can command a stage, you can certainly command a boardroom or somebody's office, you know, with a very professional approach.

[B]

Yeah, and on pauses too. When giving like professional speeches. We have slides and notes and stuff. I've actually written right in there in parentheses, like, you know, take pause or pause. Yeah, A bunch of dots on each side of it.

[A]

Yeah, it's great. That is great. It's whatever kind of mnemonic you need, reminder. You need to force yourself into doing that. And then it becomes habit. But until it becomes habit, you know, because habits, habits become our destiny. But, but you can't just hope you get it right. That's not a strategy. And so whatever you need to do to remind yourself to do that is going to be so valuable in your career. And the people listening to this podcast, you know, the top 2%, 3% of sales. People make all the money, make all the money, and everybody can get there if they work in practice, practice enough. But it's. You got to commit to your craft.

[B]

Absolutely. And this is all learnable stuff, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you kind of covered how to. How to learn and how to practice and how to prep. What about when you're in the moment speaking with a prospect? How do you, how do you check yourself in the moment to, to make sure you're. You're doing all these things? You're actively listening.

[A]

You're.

[B]

You're, you're emoting with your voice. You're. You know all the 10 things you need to keep in mind. How do you.

[A]

How do you.

[B]

How do you keep all the things in mind in your golf swing at the. At the same time?

[A]

I was just going to use the analogy of a golf swing. Right, That's. And a golf swing. Just think of one thing. When you're swinging that club, just practice one thing that you're going to get right that swing. And I would say the same thing with sales. If, you know, this week, you practice, I'm going to slow my pace down and maybe I record myself. You know, just put my phone in my pocket and record it so I can listen to myself. And, you know, all I'm focusing on this week is slowing down. Maybe next week it's using hand gestures in appropriate way. And you can go on YouTube and find a thousand videos on YouTube, know the most appropriate way to do that. But I would, you know, in the moment, you know, I'm not perfect by any means. And so if you and I were having a sales conversation, I was, it was in the middle of a presentation in my mind, went ahead and said, okay, I really want to start going down this path and see if I can help him understand how we can help his business. And you said something, and I missed it. Steve. I would literally just stop and go, Steve, I am so sorry. Like what you said about two minutes ago, I was still thinking about that, and I didn't hear what you just said. Can. Can you please just run that back for me? Because this is really important to me to make sure I understand what you said. And I just want to own the fact that I, I was in my own head thinking about when you said, you. You crushed your 2023 goal and just thinking, okay, then how can I help him do even better in 2024? And I missed what you said. Can. Can you repeat that for me? Now you're going to Think, wow, this guy actually listens to me and cares. So again, you don't have to be perfect. Just, hey, man, I missed it. Sorry, I was thinking about something else and I missed it. And this and you are important to me. So just if you could repeat that back. And I think I'm gonna write that down too. And just, you know, take a note here to make sure I have this right. And if you're in the middle of it, you know, a great way to make sure that you don't get off track is, you know, I'm presenting to Steve and Steve says something and I say, great, just so I'm totally understanding you, what I heard you say was boom, boom, boom. Is that right? Yeah. Awesome. Please continue and, or, you know, please continue sounds a little formal. So I just say awesome. Can you tell me more about that? So it's, it's really just those checking questions, which feels like sales 101, but again, so many people are so anxious to get to their deck. That's their comfort zone. They're so anxious to, you know, get to the close, which will happen so naturally. It'll just absolutely materialize in front of your eyes. If you do your job correctly by helping people and really listening and saying, I've got some two solutions that can address what you just spoke to. Would it be appropriate to go over those right now? Of course you're going to say yes, you know, versus, you know, let me show you. Nobody wants to be shown anything. You know, you could say, may I share something with you? Like, sharing is great. Showing, not a good word. But even, but even better, ask permission. Would, would now be an appropriate time to share the options with you that I'm positive can help you accelerate Your growth in 2024 based on what you just shared with me? Yeah. Cool. Let's do that. Let's, let's review these together. Let's review these together. You know, you know, I'm not going to show you. Let's review these together. Yeah, I'm super passionate about this stuff, man. I'm sorry. I know I go off like my answers are long form, but I just, this is, this is my thing.

[B]

I, I, I think I, I think this is actually really helpful to our listeners because when you're in, when you're in field sales, it, this stuff works over the phone. But I think it, it also, it's even more important in the field and to be practiced and to be smooth, because being phony shows up so much more in, in person than it is over the phone. I mean it's, it's, I think people just read people better in person or something. But like it's, it's, it feels easier to be over, over the phone and do this kind of and, and sell because it is, it's just less effective. You can do it over the phone.

[A]

But it's just, you know, it is.

[B]

Easier, it's less scary and you have to worry about this stuff left less. One thing that, that you, when you were talking stuck in my mind that, that I think is actually an important point for the, the people on the phone with less gray hair than, than you and I. You said when I, you know, I might just say well let me just write this down. So, so make sure I get it right. Implicit in that was that you were holding a pen and a piece of paper. I think that a lot of people rely on their phones to take notes now because it is better, it's easier. It's, it's, it's a better tool. But it's, it doesn't, it comes across as very, it doesn't come across well, I think especially if you're selling to older people, but maybe to everyone kind of feels like you're, you're, you're, you're fubbing them phone, ignoring them. You know, like if you're, if you're on your, you know, it's like what are you checking your Instagram real quick? Like even if you are just taking notes, but if you say so, if you have a, you know, a pen and a piece of paper, you're like oh, I just want to make sure I get this down right? Like it makes it, it almost signals this is really important to. What you're saying is so important. I have to write it down. I'm going to follow up with this. It, like it implies like you know that how seriously you're taking it. Whereas it gives a very different feeling than if you're taking the same exact notes on your phone. So I would recommend holding up real pen and a real piece of paper and a nice pen and, and writing things with that nice pen. And then when you get to the car, transferring that to, to whatever system that is, that is digital that you're storing things in extra step. I know, but it, it comes across way better.

[A]

You just gave a knowledge bomb right there. Like that is, that is gold. Because, and I, I can say this. I got a 23 year old daughter and a 20 year old son. So I have two Gen Z kids who love the death. And I, and I Manage a lot of Gen Z and millennials in my businesses. And it's fine. I've watched the millennials. They started, they were the ones that started taking notes on the computer and then now Gen Z likes to take notes on their phone. And again, I understand it is more efficient. You could go right into your CRM, all that, but it's not effective. Never confuse efficient with effective. And we want to be effective when we're selling and putting pen to paper and this for the audience. Think about this. If you, if you get an email from somebody and it says, thank you for the meeting, really appreciate the time, you just maybe you bought a car, hope you're really enjoying your new car and don't forget your free oil change at 10,000 miles. Tell your friends that's great. If you get a handwritten note in the mail from your salesperson that says, I hope you are enjoying your new Lexus. That is one of the finest automobiles we've ever carried on the lot. Don't forget, you know, you've got a four year warranty, whatever. And we take care of the first two things. If you think anybody else could benefit from driving a car as nice as the one you're driving, you know, I'd love for you to send my way regardless, have a wonderful week. Appreciate you so much. You get that in the mail and it's handwritten. Not some computer generated fake handwritten thing, but a real handwritten note. You are going to send that guy some business, like you're going to send him some business. So think of the same thing so that, you know, an email versus a handwritten card in the mail, that's no different than if somebody were typing in front of you or you were typing in front of somebody taking notes. Yes, you're listening and you're taking notes, but all they're seeing is you typing on your computer. They don't see you like just a hundred percent into what they're saying. And then you can stop and say, well, just one, one second, Stephen, let me. I want to write that down because that's an important part of what you share with me. They'll pause because they realize, wow, this, this person's really genuinely caring about my business. And you, you can't do that. When, even if you're hold. Even, even when a phone is on the table. I hate when people turn their phone upside down on the table. I'm guilty too. But put the phone in your pocket. You know, just, it's you and the prospect and too many times we Let technology be this buffer because we're trying to be efficient. I would rather be effective and make a whole lot more money.

[B]

Absolutely. I used to walk around with one of those little leather bound binders with like just, you know, a notepad inside.

[A]

Legal pad. Yeah, legal pad.

[B]

And a pen is like attached to the things and that's, that's all I would walk into a, into a sales meeting with. It's just, just that.

[A]

Yep. Love it.

[B]

Although in those days I guess you couldn't really present from a laptop. So today the world has changed. But, but I, I do think that, that, that, that maybe you still have to bring your laptop with you now in case you're plugging in a presenter or whatever. But sure, but I think when you're just having the conversation, for the conversation parts, just having that, that pen and paper is, is the right way to go.

[A]

100%.

[B]

I've heard you use the phrase say less and sell more. Can you talk about what that means to you and how you strike a balance between providing enough context and avoiding information overload?

[A]

Yeah. And I'm sure I stole that from somebody. I cannot imagine that I'm the first guy to say say less and sell more. But I say that because, and Everybody's heard the 8020 rule. The prospect should be speaking 80% of the time. You 20%. We all know this, you know, two ears, one mouth, blah, blah, blah. Yet most people don't do that. Right. So again, we need to be reminded more than we need to be educated. And so everybody knows this. You've already had the education on what you should do. How to do it though, again can be easily solved by putting your agenda, agenda to the side, putting your 37 slide deck to the side because you'll get to that eventually. And focusing everything on the conversation, on the customer, allowing them to talk to you, probing more. Tell me more about that. Well, how did you get in that position? Gosh. How, how long have you been dealing with that issue in your business? Wow. So what are the implications? Like what's, what does that do to the bottom line? How do your, how, how do your team members react when, when you have an issue like that, like you're just asking and they're going to keep talking and, and, and the craziest thing is, and you know, this is Chris Voss who's, you know, never split the difference, but just repeat back the last three words. So if you were to say, you know, how can you tell if you were to say, you know, Roger, tell me about you Know how the franchises are, are growing right now. If you're asking that question, that's not a good example. But I don't know, like, you say something, I'm going to repeat those last three words back to you. So you're curious about my head tilt and then you're going to elaborate on, yeah, I want to know more about your head tilt because I think that maybe it'll help my listeners, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's literally just if you want to be an active listener and try to keep yourself present in the moment right there, to say less and sell more, use that mirroring technique of, or parroting, I guess you would say, of just repeating those last three words. Because then people say it in a question. You know, raise your tonality. Usually questions, when we ask a question, we go up. Steve, can you tell me more about that? You know, if we raise our voice when we're making a statement, it's we, we drop our voice. So, you know, as we raise you just, you know, Beaver's mapping system and, and you're going to then tell me about Beaver's mapping system. Because as a human being, when somebody says that to us, we can't help but respond and give more information. And so we can speak so much less by saying, that's, that's interesting. What else is affecting your, your growth plans or could positively impact your growth plans in 2024? You're going to tell me, and whatever you say, I'm going to say more easier or faster app download, you know, as a question, then you're going to talk to me about that. So again, it's not manipulation. It's. I'm trying to help understand what you need. And then I'll use my presentation to hopefully persuade you that this makes the most sense. Because I believe it or I wouldn't be here in front of you as a, as a salesperson.

[B]

So how about converting prospects to customers? How, how does active listening better convert your prospects?

[A]

100 they're going to be, as we all know, people usually will not make a change if they're super comfortable, if everything's going great, if you can get somebody to change, you're a better salesperson than I. It's when they're in growth mode or they're in trouble. People buy when they're in growth mode or trouble, and that's when you can help the most. That's why you always want to continue following up with your prospects when they don't need you, because someday they're going to need you. They're either going to start growing faster or not nearly fast enough, and they're going to need you. So that's why we always continually prospect and follow up with people and just check in. And we don't try to sell them. We just check in so they know we're here for when they need us. But that, that active listening is going to make the conversion, as you call, you know, the close, so much easier because they themselves have identified the issues. They've identified. They've told you, I have this problem. I have this problem. This isn't working very well. This guy in this department's not helping me out. My boss is pressuring me, like, they're going to tell you everything on how to present your product in a way that will solve that for them. So then when you do say, okay, you said your boss is really writing you right now, and that's because inventory is not being managed closely enough. So am I hearing correctly that if you can get this inventory management under control, your boss is going to be much more pleased with you and you'll probably get a better merit increase, maybe even a promotion? Yeah. Okay, well, let's put that down as priority. Number one is getting you promoted. Okay. Number two, you know, and then just go down that list. And then, then, you know, I would say may, you know, may I share our, our solution to this? Because I think you're in the right place at the right time here in front of me because I, I can help you fix this. I can, I can literally help you get promoted if that's your goal. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Walk them through your process and then simply say, based on everything you told me, it seems to all line up. Would you agree? Yeah, my process is to, at this point, to go ahead and move to the next step in, in the procurement process, which is whatever your step is. Is that, does that seem like a fair, fair solution to you? Yeah. Yeah, sure. Cool. Well, let's go ahead and get the, the contract written up or I never called a contract the agreement. Let's get the agreement written up and make sure that you can review that. If we can get that done here today, we can get started for you immediately. I know the holidays are coming up or the holidays just passed or it's summer or whatever. You know, there's always a reason to wait and so say, let's, let's not let that stop you getting what you need. So let's get started today. Fair enough. And if you say fair enough and you kind of raise Your voice, it's really hard for somebody to say no. You know, they're going to say, yeah, yeah, let's go, or there will be a legitimate objection. And then you overcome that objection. And you know, that's a whole nother podcast. But, but I have found, and I'll tell you, and I'm sure you've seen this if you do, I called an intake. But, you know, whatever your, your, your needs discovery, you know, whatever sales book you read that month, you know, they've got a different name for it, but it's about understanding the prospects needs. If you've done that really, really, really well and gone deep and didn't stop with the third why, but got down at the fifth Y of why, why they're really wanting your help or need help. And then you play that back to them and line it up to your product or service and how it solves that. There's not a lot of objections. You know, maybe they bring up price and you say, well, we can finance that. We can do this. What is your budget? But you should have already uncovered what their budget was. That was.

[B]

You would.

[A]

You were done that earlier. You know, I need to ask a committee, I need to ask my spouse. Like that should have come out earlier by who else is involved in this decision because I want to make sure that your results don't get hung up in some committee and you don't. So you can pull that out earlier. I have found that when you're really, really, really good at the intake process, at the needs discovery, whatever you call it, you know that when you're understanding the prospect, you're going to eliminate 90% of the productions, if not all. It's, it's, it almost becomes like, like you think you like, have Jedi mind power, you know, because you're, they're going right into the close without any objections. But that's because you've already overcome those with the discovery process and you've aligned one of your solutions to one of their potential objections.

[B]

And what about, you know, some people I think would say it's really hard to be an active listener for long periods of time. And, you know, it's, it's the age of add. How, how do you over. How would you advise someone to overcome mental fatigue and just how hard it is to focus in this way for, for a whole conversation?

[A]

It's a lot harder being broke than it is listening. So I would say that you shouldn't need too much motivation. Yeah, things are, you know, attention spans are really, everybody talks about the everybody's attention span is so much. And again, here's another excuse that some salespeople will use. Well, you know, nobody has an attention span any longer. I can't even keep somebody's attention for five minutes. That's funny, because people will watch nine hours straight of a Netflix show, right? So the attention is there. The attention span is still the same, but the competition for the quality to. For that attention to be given to has definitely come up. So there's no if, ands, or buts. The competition and the quality necessary to keep someone's attention is much higher. That's why you have to be better at your job, better at active listening, better at pulling, getting them to do the talking. But the attention span is still there. It's just, you got to earn it. You got to earn it. So, you know, I don't know if I have a tip or trick on staying focused. You know, I've heard, you know, you put a rubber band on your wrist and you snap that or different things. But it. I don't know. My, my, my whole thing is, did I hear what they just said? If not, I'm going to stop and say, can you repeat that? Because I want to make sure I clearly understand that and just admit I didn't hear what you said to keep myself present. But don't, you know, anybody listening? Don't fool yourself and think, well, you know, it's just, it's different these days. There's more competition for the attention, but the top people will always make the most money. Somebody's making money, and so you want to be in that group.

[B]

Well, let's do some quick questions, quick answers. So, like, all the sales in 60 seconds. So first question, what is your top tip for practicing active listening virtually or over the phone versus in person?

[A]

Record yourself, record yourself, record yourself, and then listen back to that. Listen to it when you're in your car. Most salespeople are in their car lot or they're in their office. They. They can listen while they take a little break. If you record yourself with your smartphone and listen to your pitches, listen to your, your discovery, process, all that, you'll start to hear where you're doing well and where it went off the rails.

[B]

And what are some common mistakes that you see salespeople making when they practice active listening.

[A]

Yeah, you want to practice. Doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. And so we want to listen to this podcast again. Read. There's so many great books on this. There's thousand YouTube videos. So listen to Those and then compare it to what you're doing. So there, there is no magic answer here. It's figure out what you need to do. I'm hopefully telling the listeners right now what they should do and then record themsel and then say, am I doing that? Did I pause? Did I. Hopefully they're videotaping themselves. Did I use my hand gestures in an open, welcoming way? You know, was I closed? Did I show expression on my face? And again, you can be role playing into a mirror. You don't have to have. This doesn't have to be a live prospect, but it is perfect. Practice makes perfect. And you know, go back and if you don't, you don't have to do the whole role play. Just where did I screw up? Okay, let's go back. Let me, let me try that 15 times in a row. You want to practice not until you get it right. You want to practice until you can't get it wrong. Those are two different things.

[B]

Do you have any tips on making sure that you've been clear in your communication ways to tell if the coin has fallen? So they spent. So they say.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great question. That again, I always default back to asking the question and you know, is what I just presented, does it, does that make sense? I, I love saying does that make sense? Did everything that we talked about today jive with what you're looking to accomplish? Yeah. Did I miss anything? Did, was there anything that, that I just forgot to ask because sometimes I get this busy, you know, I'm listening to you and I. Is there anything else that, that I should know about your situation so I can make sure I formulate the best, best proposal for you that's most cost effective with the best results? So it's just going back and asking the customer. We don't want to assume anything. So there's a, there's your short 60 second, you know, don't assume.

[B]

Stuff'S so important. I guess because of this is, this is an area of expertise for you. So I definitely wouldn't want to walk away without asking what is your. Or what is your top wellness tip or a couple wellness tips that you think would help our listeners?

[A]

Sure. So, you know, of course I'm the CEO of Rockbox Fitness, which is a boxing for fitness concept. And, and then Beamlight sauna, which is an infrared studio, private infrared studio concept where people go in their own private room and have their own private infrared sauna. There's all kinds of data on why infrared sauna is so much Better than regular sauna and red light therapy and whatnot. But. So I'm passionate about health and wellness and those are my brands. I'm more passionate about business, quite frankly. But this, Steve, this gets down to everything we just talked about today, like health and wellness. Why there's another diet book that'll be published or a hundred published this year makes no sense. Because everything we need to know, we know. Eat less, exercise more, sleep enough, you know, don't eat processed foods. Shop on the perimeter of the grocery store where the real food is that parents swim in the ocean or grew on a tree or in the ground. You know, like, we all know this stuff. It's making a commitment to do one thing different and just do that. Like, I am only going to, I'm not going to, I'm making this up. You know, I'm not going to eat past 6pm because some people should eat past 6pm depending on their metabolism, who, you know, their weight, their goals. But whatever that goal, like we go into the New Year's resolutions and we go into, okay, summer's bikini season, we're gonna try this and we try to do everything. And that's hard. Human beings are not good. Me included at. I'm gonna change everything. I'm gonna exercise, I'm gonna eat less, I'm gonna sleep more, I'm only gonna eat whole foods and not, not gonna drink alcohol. More power to you. Because that's a lot of change. And we've gotten into these habits. It became routine for us. And so we need to make a good habit, a routine. And then we can stack another habit and then stack another habit. So, you know, the easiest way that I found when, when, if my weight starts to fluctuate is I get all the crap out of the house. The chips go, the wine goes, the processed foods go, everything goes. Because it's funny when, when they're not there in the pantry and it's nine o' clock at night, you may eat an apple or you may just say, hell, I'm going, I'm going to bed. You know, when there's a bag of chips and when there's candy and when there's, you know, dry cereal, which is total garbage, I love it, but it's total garbage. You know, when it's there, you'll snack on it. When it's not readily available, your chance, you know, you have to. Here's, here's a simple answer because I rambled there. Don't stack the deck against yourself. When you're, when you're around wellness. If, if you want to start working out early in the morning, then put all your clothes out, your tennis shoes, yourself, everything right by your bed so that there's no effort involved to actually put those clothes on. That's the hardest part is getting out of the bed and well, you know, just drive to the gym. Just say, look, I'm just going to drive to the gym today. I may not even go in, but I'm driving to the gym today. And usually if you get to the parking lot, you're like, ah, you know what? All right, I'll go in at least I'll do 30 minutes. Just say I'm gonna go and I'm do five minutes. I'm gonna do five minutes on the StairMaster and maybe I'll do 10. I think I can do 15. Okay, I'm done for today. But, but it's setting these little micro things of. I'm just, I'm gonna set my clothes out tomorrow, I'm gonna set my clothes out and I'm actually gonna drive to the gym. I'm not committing to myself that I'm gonna go. Because every time we make a promise to ourselves, this is true in sales. Every time we make a promise to ourself and we break that promise, our self belief and our confidence, our self confidence goes down a notch because we don't believe what we're telling ourselves. Every time we make a small promise to ourself and we do that, our self confidence goes up and our self belief goes up. So just make these small little incremental changes to your diet, to your workout, to the alcohol consumption, all that stuff because you don't have to live a perfect life. But if you want to make these changes, make small promises and then keep that promise. Don't over promise because every time you break that promise, you're. You're chipping away at your own fabric.

[B]

Great advice. Just, just fantastic advice. Well, next section I'm going to try to summarize some of the stuff we've said here because so many people are driving when they, when they, when they listen to these. So first of all, active listening is all about asking a question and actually taking the time to pause and listen. Work to actively understand what your prospect's true needs are. And often they won't even know what they need. So the, the goal of active, active listening. One of the goals is to, is to uncover what, what they really need. Be diligent and intentional about how you have your sales conversations when asking about your prospects, prospects Business slow down, pause and get quieter. This will allow prospects to really tune in to what you're saying. Use tonality to be authentic in your conversations with your prospects. When you ask questions and when you're reacting to what prospects say, use a curious tone to pull out more information from your prospects. You can use body language to further connect and communicate with prospects too. One tip from Roger. I love to try to keep your palms up and open with prospects to signal that you're open to receiving what they're saying. You know, don't cross your arms, be closed off or you know, similar when you're giving speeches. It's a great tip there too. Just having your showing your palms a little bit. I've read that that's because people, if they can see your hands, they're, they're put at ease because you. It's instinct or evolution.

[A]

Caveman days.

[B]

Yeah. You can't have a weapon if you're, if you're, if you're not holding anything.

[A]

You got it.

[B]

You want to practice often and take the time to role play with your co workers, your mirror, your, your dog, whatever. Role play and practice to get better. When speaking with a prospect, pick one area of improvement that you want to focus on at a time so you can really stay focused on what your prospect is. When. Communicate with prospects, when you want to like note down or take a note on what something important they said and take notes with pen and paper we talked about versus your laptop or your phone. It shows that you're only focused on them and you can seem distracted by the technology or less connected if you put the technology between you. One trick to being an active listener is repeating back words that your prospect said to, to show that you really heard what they said and, and often to get them to, to say more and keep, keep, keep digging deeper. One thing I love the, the when you're closing, you can review what, what the discussion was and, and, and the phrase fair enough is super powerful. So that's definitely one to, to, to tuck away in your back pocket like fair enough. People's, people's attention spans are still there, but you, you do have to work to earn it a little harder maybe. So you, you want to make sure you're, you're bringing your, your prospects quality information and not, and not wasting their time. So much great information today. This is really great. Roger, where can our listeners read more about your work? How do they get to know you better? Get in touch with you?

[A]

Sure. Thank you for asking. So I have a new book coming Out. That'll be out by the time this, this is posted. It's called An Insider's Guide to Business Secrets from an Entrepreneur's Playbook. It's available on Amazon. You can get paperback or Kindle. And I wrote this book and I've started many books in my life and I, but this one was really important to me and I wrote it and finished it and edited it seven times. And it, I'm really proud of this book because I have my master's, you know, my mba. And I just found when I got into business, especially when I started running my own businesses, my learning curve was a 90 degree angle. And I just wondered where was this information when I was getting my graduate degree? Like where, where were these classes of how businesses actually work? What is the difference between marketing and branding? When should you use both? When you're selling, you know, how do you use Scarcity, urgency, the 8020 rules we talked about, you know, active listening. I even give examples and I use ellipses like you said, like these little pauses to try to demonstrate it when I was writing it out. Finances. You don't have to be a financial expert, but what are the four things? If you're running a division or running a department or running a company, what are the four things you really need to focus on? You know, I talk about values and culture and why that matters. And it's not just some BS on a wall or in an operations manual. And it's, it's written from my perspective, real stories, real mistakes I've made so that listeners won't and, or the readers won't. And, and that's coming out, you know, you know, it'll be out on Amazon when, when this goes live and then they can follow me at Real Roger Martin just, you know, on LinkedIn or not like LinkedIn, I'm Roger Martin. I think everywhere else on all the other socials, it's Real Roger Martin. And you know, I post videos on there and, and tips and kind of all the kind of stuff we talked about today. Who just super passionate about business and, and then, you know, LinkedIn, they can follow me on LinkedIn if they like to.

[B]

Fantastic. Well, this has been a great episode of the outside sales talk. If you work in field sales, you'll love Badger maps, the number one route planner helps you sell 20% more and derive 20% less. Get a free trial at badgermapping.com if anyone can think of other sales reps that would benefit from the things that Roger's taught us today. Definitely forward this episode along to them. Roger, thanks so much for coming today.

[A]

Oh, it's been my pleasure. I appreciate it. Thank you.