One of the most overlooked personal accommodations busy adults with ADHD can apply

Summary

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Episode Summary

Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode of Overcoming Distractions—Thriving with ADHD/ADD (October 17, 2025), host David A. Greenwood welcomes Jeff Copper (Dig Coaching) to discuss one of the most overlooked accommodations for adults with ADHD: the intentional use of direct communication as a cognitive support. The episode explores how adults with ADHD often overlook talking through their challenges—not as a crutch, but as a powerful, universal, and natural adaptation that can drastically improve focus, clarity, and executive functioning. Jeff presents his model of "cognitive ergonomics from the inside out" and makes the case for re-examining familiar experiences as legitimate, effective accommodations for ADHD.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Executive Function & ADHD: Setting the Stage

• Understanding Executive Functions (04:00-06:40)

  • Executive functions are “a collection of mind tools that you use to solve problems.”
  • For people with ADHD, these functions are impaired (i.e., less efficient), which means it takes disproportionately more effort to accomplish tasks, leading to burnout and frustration.
  • "If it's 50% impaired, it means it takes twice the effort to do the same thing." — Jeff Copper (05:10)
  • Motivation isn't always the issue: "People with ADHD have more motivation than neurotypicals because it's harder." — Jeff Copper (05:25)

• Strategy vs. Execution (07:30-09:08)

  • Having a plan is not usually the problem; carrying it out is.
  • Many with ADHD drift to “cognitively easier” activities to avoid tasks that require difficult executive functioning, like writing a blog or planning.
  • "You didn't write the blog not because you didn't want to, but because the executive function work to organize thoughts, choose words, and order arguments is really hard." — Jeff Copper (08:30)

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2. The Direct Communication Model: “Cognitive Ergonomics from the Inside Out”

• Concept of Cognitive Ergonomics (09:34-12:46)

  • Most ADHD accommodations focus on working "harder"; Jeff suggests focusing on working differently.
  • Direct, real-time communication—talking out loud to another person—is an overlooked but fundamental tool for problem solving.
  • “Direct communication is actually the universal accommodation… It's been going on for thousands of years.” — Jeff Copper (12:35)
  • Example: Historically, language developed for people to solve shared problems—collaboration and talking through tasks are not weaknesses, but ancient, universal strengths.

• Why Don’t We Use This Enough? (15:09-18:02)

  • Emotional self-regulation and self-awareness are both key executive functions. Many adults with ADHD avoid asking for help or communicating because of shame, perfectionism, or fear of judgment.
  • “If somebody came to you and said, ‘Hey, can I think out loud for a minute?’ Do you say no to them?” — Jeff Copper [17:29]
  • The avoidance is not inability—it's an emotional hurdle: "It's your emotional judgment that's restraining you from having the direct conversation to resolve the problem." — Jeff Copper (18:02)

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3. A Paradigm Shift: From Skills Training to Built-in Accommodations

• Skills Training vs. Accommodations (22:19-25:11)

  • Instead of endless self-improvement, environmental supports—like daily check-ins or structured conversations—might be more effective.
  • “Let’s stop trying harder… let’s get people and give them permission to problem solve with other people.” — Jeff Copper (24:01)
  • Real-world examples: At school—tutors, special ed, one-on-ones. At work—team huddles, quick debriefs, intentional collaboration.

• Making Accommodations Tangible (23:48)

  • ADHD is affected by environmental context: "ADHD is amplified or muted based on the environment." — Annie Rogers quoted by Jeff Copper (23:48)
  • Loss of casual workplace collaboration during COVID isolation led to a surge in coaching: “The intangible, invisible accommodation that was built in at work... is no longer at your place. That's why you're suffering.” — Jeff Copper

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4. Actionable Steps: Making Direct Communication Work for You

• Identifying Hidden Accommodations (26:16-28:09)

  • Many adults with ADHD already instinctively use direct communication for problem-solving (“I just cry and call my mom, and then I can write my paper.”).
  • These natural behaviors are not weaknesses—they’re hidden strengths.

• Practical Scripts & Moves (28:09-29:19)

  • “If you’re a businessman: ‘Hey, you got a minute? Can I talk out loud? Can you help me brainstorm?’”
  • Don’t ask people to tell you what to do; ask for their experience or help thinking through things. This preserves agency and maximizes creativity.
  • For self-reliant moments: Use techniques like “body doubling” (working alongside someone, even virtually or in silence), or write your thoughts aloud for self-guidance.

• Situational Adaptation (30:23-31:26)

  • Not “one size fits all”—some people benefit more from social environments, others from quiet. Self-awareness helps tailor the best combinations.
  • “If you look at it, you'll be surprised. Just say, 'What am I not clear on?’” — Jeff Copper (30:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Direct communication is actually the universal accommodation… Neurotypicals do it every day. People with ADHD do it every day. But people with ADHD just need it more.” — Jeff Copper (12:46)

• “80% of everything on your procrastination list at some level is rooted in ambiguity.” — Jeff Copper (19:46)

• “If you don’t really know what to do, what are you procrastinating on?” — Jeff Copper (20:45)

• “Clarity and motivation are highly correlated. As long as it’s not boring, if you know what to do, you’ll do it.” — Jeff Copper (21:05)

• “Try differently, not harder.” — David Greenwood (35:22)

• “My end game is to get this into Americans with Disabilities Act—so those with ADHD can actually get this as a legitimate accommodation, both in school and work.” — Jeff Copper (34:32)

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Recommended Action Steps (Practical Takeaways)

1. Begin using direct communication as a daily tool:
   Ask peers, co-workers, friends: “Can I talk this out for a minute?” or “Can you help me think through something?”
2. Reframe ‘asking for help’ not as a deficit, but as a fundamental adaptation—it’s ancient, universal, and necessary.
3. Notice patterns: Pay attention to when and how collaboration or talking out loud helps you get unstuck.
4. Environmental design: Seek out or establish regular touchpoints (short daily check-ins, work buddies, mentors, body doubling sessions).
5. Self-compassion: Recognize emotional patterns (shame, fear of judgment) that keep you from reaching out—challenge the idea that you ‘should’ do everything alone.
6. Advocate at work: If possible, request regular, scheduled check-ins or collaborative planning as a formal accommodation.
7. For solo work: Try explaining a task out loud (even to yourself), or record a voice memo talking yourself through a plan, especially when feeling vague or stuck.

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Timestamps For Important Segments

• Executive Functions and ADHD: 04:00–06:40
• Plan vs. Execution—Why the Brick Wall Appears: 07:30–09:08
• Direct Communication as Universal Accommodation: 12:02–12:46
• Avoidance & Emotional Barriers to Communication: 15:09–18:02
• Skills Training vs. Accommodations—Paradigm Shift: 22:19–23:47
• Making it Practical: Scripts and Steps: 26:16–29:19
• Variability & Individualization of Approaches: 30:23–31:26
• Key Advocacy Vision—Change in ADA Accommodations: 34:32–35:22

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Episode in a Nutshell

This episode busts the myth that “doing it alone” is evidence of adulting or professionalism with ADHD. Jeff Copper and David Greenwood argue that talking things out, seeking quick collaborations, and building discussion-based supports are not just helpful, but are critical, evidence-based, and natural accommodations that can make adult ADHD far more manageable and less lonely. If you’re stuck, feeling foggy, or simply burned out from trying harder—“try differently”—and start thinking out loud, together.

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Transcript

[A]

I'm Dave Greenwood, and this is Overcoming Distractions. If you are an adult with adhd, a busy professional, an entrepreneur, a high achiever, or just need some strategies to navigate your adult adhd, you're in the right place. Who am I? I'm an entrepreneur with ADHD and the author of two books, Overcoming Distract and Overcoming Burnout. I coach and mentor people just like you, and together we navigate the ups and downs of adult adhd, from getting out of our own way to helping people just like you thrive in the workplace. That's what I do. Want more info on working with me? Hit overcoming distractions.com ready? Let's get to today's podcast. All right, gang, we're back.

[B]

You know you are, I hope, Overcoming Distractions. If you have been with us for a while, welcome back. If you're new, then I'm glad you're here. You are on the podcast for the busy professional with adhd. Or you think you have adhd, you don't need a piece of paper to. To come here and hang out.

[C]

You.

[B]

You just need to be a. A busy professional. Whether it's a CEO, cfo, you're an entrepreneur, you're a solopreneur, anywhere in between. All are welcome. So, hey, I always say that those of us with ADHD actually are really good at problem solving. Right? I mean, I think we see things that others don't. I think we connect the dots better than anybody. However, I think when it comes to our ability to thrive with adhd, we don't always implement the things that we're actually good at for ourselves. Right. We can kind of. We can discuss this in a minute, so. And I think that's why a lot of times those of us who are living busy lives, demanding career, kids, home life, all that stuff, we do need a coach, we need a mentor. We need somebody to help us kind of walk through the. The challenges and frustrations as well, celebrate the wins that maybe we actually don't see. Right, so. So today we're talking with my good friend Jeff Copper of Dig Coaching. So welcome, sir.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me on, David. You know, that was very well said at the beginning of it. I encourage the listeners to kind of go back and replay a lot of what you had just said. There's. It went fast, but there's a lot of good information in it.

[B]

We just get to the point here now, right?

[C]

That's right.

[B]

We don't want to be accused of meandering and agreeing the ADHD brain. Right? So you've developed a model called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. We're going to chat about that, but let's. Because this actually does fall right into that kind of problem solving piece of our brain. Right, but let's, let's. And I'm going to tell everybody right now, talk about busy life. I'm flying by the seat of my pants today. Okay. I usually do like a lot of prep and stuff. That doesn't mean we're not going to have a great conversation. Maybe this is going to be one of the best conversations I've ever had, you know, because I'm super curious because I barely prepared for this, so. But I think it's an important conversation for, for us to have. So. But I want to lay a little groundwork maybe some foundation first. Right. So ADHD is kind of, simply put, it's our executive functions. They work a little bit differently than other folks. Would you agree?

[C]

100.

[B]

Yeah. 100 and, and explain that in like a Reader's Digest version of like, because I think a lot of us.

[C]

You.

[B]

Know, busy people with adhd, we get to a point where like, I, I can't get out of my own way, I get out of the house, it's a train wreck. Maybe sometimes we don't kind of dig down and figure out why. Maybe as I know you've seen a lot, a lot of people, maybe they get diagnosed in their 40s or 50s. Right. They, they were doing really good. Life happens. So they don't really have the, the basic kind of knowledge of the executive functions in adhd.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So kind of walk us through briefly why, why that is.

[C]

So we make observations using our senses, aided by some type of technology. Microscope, telescope, mri, CAT scan, et cetera. And when it comes to adhd, we don, we haven't until recently had the ability to see this stuff. So we tend to judge people on what we see. The person's not focusing on what they're, what they're doing largely. We do know that executive functions are these things that we use as humans to solve problems. But some of the definitions are out there. It's kind of confusing. So let's make this really simple. Executive functions actually are a collection of mind tools that you use to solve problems. That's really what they are. And if you have adhd, they're impaired. They're impaired. What does that mean? It means they're less efficient. My eyesight is impaired, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I use glasses for that because it's less efficient, it's harder. And I've Been working on something. I'm going to get a lot of detail, but people look at motivation as this thing. And I'm like, if you understand people with ADHD have an executive functioning impairment, and when it comes to planning and problem solving, if it's impaired, let's just for the math sake, say it's 50% impaired compared to neurotypical. That would mean it takes twice the effort to produce the same thing. So in one sense, I say people with adhd, they have more motivation than neurotypicals because it's harder. Because until recently, all the adhd, this is the way you're supposed to do it. And accommodations for the most part, have always been, here's time for you just to try harder. And so if you have ADHD and it's an executive functioning impairment and you're trying to plan and problem solve, it's less efficient, which is why you get burnt out quicker, which is why you're tired easier, which is why you get frustrated easier. And there's all kinds of ramifications as a result. Often what, what looks like impulsivity is the escape from the incredible effort that you're engaging to, to plan a problem solve. It's, it's people thinking that you're going to something. I'm saying if you look at it different, really, it's an escape from the discomfort of it all.

[B]

Well, no, you, you, you, you, you bring up a good point, is that I've talked to so many people and, and, and it's kind of like a, a common theme where it's like, the motivation isn't really my problem or my challenge or my frustration. Sometimes I even have a game plan. I got the, the working conditions right. I sit down at my desk, I'm ready to tackle that thing, right? And then a brick wall just like appears out of nowhere, Right? Yeah. And it's just like, I knew what I had to do. I had a game plan, I got ready, but I ended up doing something completely different, and I don't really know why. Right.

[C]

All right, so let's, let's. This is fun. A strategy is an overarching plan. Okay. Of trying to get something done. A plan is more the sequential steps. And I tell people that strategies don't necessarily work and plans don't work. So the way I describe it, imagine you're an entrepreneur and you have a strategy. You want to get more customers, and so that you're going to write a blog to get your name out there and be relevant. Right? That's, that's the strategy, the plan is you're going to write a blog on Thursdays, right? Thursday, Thursday at 11 o'. Clock. Thursday, 11 o' clock comes and goes. And you didn't write the blog. Why? Yeah, well, you know what a blog is and you might have had a topic, but here's the trick. Executive functions are about searching in your head for those, through those 50 ideas to maybe come up with the five most important points. Then you have to come up with the right words to articulate each one of those points. Then you have to put the points in a sequential order sufficient to convince somebody compelling to read. That is what we're using executive functions for. It's not the idea, it's the execution of it. So this is what I'm talking about is it's harder, more impaired. And so what happens, you find yourself doing other things typically on Thursday that you know to do that are not as cognitively difficult because you can get them done. And so you don't end up doing that. And so it goes back to your point is I don't know what happened. What I'm saying is if the impairment is there, it's really, really difficult and you end up doing things that are cognitively easier than the problem solving. And so that's one of the things we're here to talk about today. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So you know me. By now, anybody who's listened to this over the years knows that I'm a simple guy. I do not like complex things I don't like. It's like, you know, put a, put an IKEA bookcase in front of me and that's like fresh hell for me.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So, um, so I give that to my wife. You know, go ahead and yeah, you want something from Ikea, good. You build it. I'm out. So, that being said, you, you, you have been working on this model called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. Explain it to me and everybody else here like I'm an eight year old.

[C]

Okay, let's, let's do this because I want to keep it simple. Let's work backwards on this. All right?

[B]

Okay.

[C]

What I'm here today really to do is to create some awareness, to give you permission and to kind of help people begin to see what's hidden in plain sight. And I'm going to give you potentially some very actionable items, potentially that you've already been doing. So this model that I built has produced what's called an Axiom company. It's basically a truth that's built on other Known truths. Okay, so let's get rid of all that garbage, but let me kind of walk through it with you. Adhesive and executive functioning impairment. Okay, we talked about that already. Executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we used in goal directed behavior over time to solve problems. We just talked about that. Problems are characterized as being multifaceted and ambiguous. Like planning. It's multifaceted, ambiguous. Managing time, making decisions. Right. Organizing, that's all. Multifaceted, ambiguous. So given that ADHD is an executive functioning impairment, it explains why those with ADHD have difficulty with all that. Like, no, duh, like, that's so simple. But here's where it takes a good turn. The leading views of cognitive science is that language actually evolved as a tool to coordinate social behavior and solve shared problems. Stop for a second. If we didn't have problems, language would have never come about. Like, I'm hungry, Dave. I can't kill that thing by myself. I need you to go around to the other side. So I'm communicating with you to solve shared problems. Yeah. Again, think about it. If you didn't have problems, we wouldn't have a need for it. So if you go back having direct conversations, you and I interacting back and forth, real time is the most fundamental, most basic form of problem solving.

[B]

But we avoid that sometimes, right? We avoid. You know, I think we've talked about this before. Like, let's take the clarity piece, for example, where somebody is, they get a directive from their boss or a client and then they didn't actually understand it. Or basically they didn't even take fricking notes. Okay. And now two weeks have gone by and now they're in panic when, as you say, communication done in, in time might have gone a long way in problem solving. Correct.

[C]

Exactly. And so let's come back to that. Just to finish the axiom a little bit is if this is true, direct communication is actually the universal accommodation.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's been going on for thousands of years since language is invented. Neurotypicals do it every day. People with ADHD do it every day. But here's the thing. Because of the impairment, people with adhd, they just need it more than regular. And if we look at this way, this is a game changer because having the ability to collaborate with somebody is not a nicety or something like that. It should be a required accommodation. So imagine this thing, you got a job and your employer provides somebody to sit down with. Let's talk about what you're going to get done today. They're not telling you what to do, they're going to help you talk through it as a means to derive the outcome on that. And so what I'm here today is that so many people with ADHD think that they need to be able to do everything on their own. And it's funny because when they, somebody says, but I should be able to do that on my own, I go, what'd you have for breakfast? Eggs? Do you raise the chicken? Did you build the stove? Did you slaughter, did you build the refrigerator? I mean I kind of go through everything that's there. And so the revelation of this is, as I'm saying, direct communication is the most fundamental, basic, ubiquitous accommodation for those with adhd. And it's been around for thousands of years, but it's hidden in plain sight. And it's really interesting because when you look at it, if you're having issues in school, what do you do? They send you to the teacher to have a direct conversation or you go to a tutor to have a direct conversation or you go to special ed to have a direct conversation. At work you go have one on ones with your doctors, you go work in teams. If it's outside of work, you go to a therapist or you go to a coach. Coaches in particular, it's about face to face goal directed behavior. If you're having issues in the world you call customer service. I mean it's kind of funny because it's, it's so ubiquitous, it's everywhere. And again I'm reiterating, this is for everybody, not just people with adhd. Yet. Yeah, they see, have come to the conclusion that they shouldn't be, have to do it on their own.

[B]

So why, why Let me, let me zig and zag a little bit because I think there is a, there is a obvious question in here that I think a lot of people would resonate with is why do many of us with ADHD avoid communication in certain circumstances or instances or situations?

[C]

So this is going to get a little bit more complicated. Is that all right? So in order to understand this, no.

[B]

But I think it's an important point because how many people have you talked to over the years where you said, where they said this client sent me an email three weeks ago and I haven't gotten them back to it yet. Now I'm scared shitless to actually, you know, reach out and send the email and what do I say?

[C]

Right? So yeah, let's go back to beginning because I said this is about awareness and giving people permission, right? So executive functions, there's Two executive functions that are really important here. One is self awareness and the other is emotional self regulation. Okay, so to understand this concept, David, could you imagine having to stand butt naked in front of all your friends, all your family, all your peers as you walk out and just drop trowel just on display for everybody to see?

[B]

No. In fact, I've had nightmares about that. So I got to get the dream dictionary out.

[C]

So what, what, what's happening is, is you're feeling a little defensive. It's a fight flight or freeze response. And you're like, I don't want to do that because I might have to reveal things I don't want people to see. That's a normal response. And I'm doing this on purpose because it's reflexive in everybody. Self awareness, looking at yourself as you actually are. Most with adhd, they don't want to admit who they are and what's going on. So reflexively they lack that self awareness. They lack owning it. So what I tell people, in order to be self aware, you've got to be able to down regulate your emotions. But to down regulate your emotions, you got to be self aware. So we actually have these two things that are conflicting with each other. One of the reasons why I wanted to come on the show was to walk through this logic and say, if you actually go around and look, I mean really make observations, this is hidden in plain sight. You've been doing it for forever. The issue is nobody's actually described it using deducted logic and given you permission to go do it. And people with adhd, they don't want to ask for help because they're judging themselves. And so what I tell people is like, this is, this is straight up, David. If somebody came to you and said, hey, can I think out loud for a minute or can you help me think through something? Do you say no to them?

[B]

Of course not. I mean, of course not.

[C]

Of course.

[B]

I think, right. And I think that goes back to a critical piece of this is, is timing, you know, and I think people with ADHD need to develop that muscle, so to speak. I mean, maybe I'm being ignorant, but I think I, I just go back to that example I just used where like, you know, time is not on our side when we have to communicate with somebody. Right.

[C]

So you're, you're right. Except what I'm, what I'm suggesting is that it's your emotional judgment that's restraining you from going to have the direct conversation to resolve the problem. And so time passes and as you just dig in a deeper hole. And at the end of the day, the whole, the whole notion of this is, is that if you've got ADHD and you want to own what I'm talking about, you'll find your life gets transformed. Transformed. And you know, most people with ADHD that are successful, you know, David, if you talk to you do a lot of working with professionals, myself in this realm, most of the ones that are successful have let go. They own their ADHD and they've gotten help. They built it in around them. Yet other people are restricting. So going back to your original question, people with ADHD emotionally don't feel like they should ask somebody for help. Thus they don't, and things get worse. What I'm saying is it works. Neurotypicals do it, go do it. You'll be surprised. Recently I was, I was talking about this with somebody else and a coach said, but I've got a bunch of writers that are isolated and they don't have people around for them to talk about. What should they do? And I said, suffer. That's. That was the answer. Here's the thing. There's. There's some, there's some, there's some stuff in here that's kind of weird. When I'm talking about problem solving, you're right. People with adhd, they can see connections, they can make connections and pull that stuff together. That's making a connection. When I'm talking about problem solving, I'm talking about executing. It's actually coming up with the words to write the blog. And so at the end of the day, this is a very actionable discussion. If you take a look around and you've got a problem, if you find, hey, go to somebody, don't go to somebody who's going to tell you what to do or fix you, but just say, hey, can I borrow your brain, David? Can you help me think through something? Dimes over donuts, usually you'll find that you'll. It'll help you move forward. Which is why I tell people 80% of everything on your procrastination list at some level is rooted in ambiguity.

[B]

Oh. Oh, yeah, we've had that conversation before.

[C]

So that goes back to problem solving, which is everything I'm talking about.

[B]

And that's why, as a side note, and I've said this a million times, I get so irritated with the gurus, I'm putting my quotes up in there if you people can't see me. But where I've seen people up there who have very Large followings on social media platforms saying, you know, sometimes procrastination is good. Give yourself a chance to procrastinate. You know, if you know the actual, actual core and definition of procrastination, you know that nothing good comes from procrastination. You know, that's.

[C]

Yeah. So that's one of the things that I'm arguing is that people say it's procrastination. And I don't. I personally, my feeling is, if you don't really know what to do, what are you procrastinating on? Like, the issue really is if you knew what to do. Because I say uncertainty and avoidance are highly, highly correlated. But clarity and motivation are highly corded. As long as it's not boring. If you know what to do, you'll do it. So what's, what's the trick here? If you're, if you're not doing something, you look at, you say what's hard and specifically what's ambiguous? This is ambiguous. Well, how do I solve that? I'm gonna go call Dave because Dave's got the answer, or he, Dave can help me figure it out. Now you've identified the root cause and you're moving forward. So cognitive ergonomics from the inside out is a new field of engineering. There is systems engineering is about building systems and processes. Ergonomics is about fitting the job to the user. There is something called cognitive ergonomics, but it's from the outside in. The inside out version is I use Dr. Barclay's definition and simulated experience to bring tangibility. It's all kind of complicated, which is the point really is that model is producing the things that I'm talking about to bring validity to these accommodations hidden in plain sight. And my hope is that people listening to us, some of you are going, wow, yeah. If you're like, yeah, but I can't do that. You're actually having an emotional reaction. Because I'm telling you, if you really look around, the evidence is the evidence and it's undisputable. You just have to see it.

[B]

So how is this approach different from how we may have historically managed adult adhd? I mean, is it drastically different or is it just something that was in our face the whole time?

[C]

And it's a paradigm. It's a paradigm. It's like, oh, my God, the world is round, not flat. So what we've done up to this point in time is skills training. Right? You need to come up with a hook. You need to. It doesn't really actually help you write the Blog. It's this thing that you do when you hit that moment of ambiguity, the strategy or the plan does not resolve. The I tell people all the time strategies don't work. Why? Because there's something that's ambiguous you need to problem solve. And so what I'm, I'm, I'm trying to promote is no more skills training. Let's accommodate the impairment again. Imagine that you're at work and every day somebody calls you up and says, hey, Dave, let's just talk about what you're going to get done today. And you'd be surprised. A lot of people adh talk to and maybe a check in periodically through that. That's a simple accommodation. And many people, it's already built into their environment. Annie Rogers of Attitude magazine quoted in the newsletter back in like April, ADHD is amplified or muted based on the environment.

[B]

Yeah, I would agree.

[C]

If you're among people, it's intangible. You're talking out loud. It's built into the environment. If you're not, it's nothing. I don't know about you, Dave. When, when lockdown hit, I thought I was going to be out of a job and I'm kind of expensive, but my phone lit up like a Christmas tree of people complain of motivation problems and productivity problems. I'm like, no. The intangible, the invisible accommodation that was built in work, where you're getting help is no longer at your place. That's why you're suffering. Get the accommodation and it makes some sense. And so going back to Jeff, why is this different? It's let's get people, get people and give them permission to problem solve with other people. Provide that accommodation. Like my eyeglasses, my vision's impaired with glasses, that's my accommodation. I can see this is a tangible accommodation. It's very easy to see because of my executive function impairment. If you and I are talking through what we're going to do, that helps me focus, it helps me think. It's an intangible accommodation. That's why we don't necessarily see it. So again, I use that metaphor. My glasses help me focus. Talking through something with you helps me focus. It's doing the same thing. We just need to look at it as an impairment. Give the accommodations and we can mitigate and, or eliminate the impairment with that accommodation. Yeah.

[B]

So as I always like to say, where people come here to problem solve, people come to, you know, your content, your shows, they come here to problem solve. They want to listen to something and then walk away with Something that they can put into action. So obviously working with a coach or a mentor or getting better at communicating with their boss, their spouse, their whomever it may be, the client, etc, co workers, but provide us with some kind of steps that somebody can begin to implement after they, you know, they listen to this and they go, you know what? Holy crap, that makes total sense. Right?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And I love it when people say that after listening, you know, to, to, to these shows.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So, so walk us through how somebody could be a little more aware of, of maybe the stuff that's like right in front of us.

[C]

So, okay, so the. Where. Let me tell you a story. So I'm mentor coaching this woman, she's a coach and we were talking about some kind of coaching on top of it. And she was telling me about how she can't get anything unless done unless it's at a deadline. And I'm going, well, no, tell me about what you're doing. And so she's like, I, I, I, I, she can't describe to me what she does in order to get her thing done at deadline. And finally I'm asking her question after question because I'm a coach and she basically gets to, well, you know, at some point in time I just cry and I call my mom. I go, there it is. And she's like, what? I go, think about it. And the light bulbs started going off left and right. Yes. In college I was always right at the deadline and I would begin to cry and that's the moment when I called my mom. My mom would start asking me questions and that's when I would write my paper.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What I just described is hidden in plain sight. People just aren't looking for it. People, they, when people want to, they see clutter and they go, I got to get rid of clutter. But have you ever noticed when you're with somebody it's a lot easier? Because here's the hard part, Most clutter is there because it doesn't have a home to sit there and say, where am I going to put this? And I'm going to remember it. That is a big issue with regard to clutter. And having somebody with you when you're talking through that usually is a lot easier. So these are just everyday experiences that I'm describing, that if you're looking for this, this is how it manifests. So let's go back to the question. Well, if you're a businessman. Hey, you've got a minute? Can I talk out loud? Can I talk through this? Can you help me brainstorm. Never tell people to tell you what to do. I need your creativity. You can tell me about your experience, but don't tell me what to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you're by yourself, I tell people, get yourself an executive functioning assistant. What is that? What do they do? They're just here to ask me questions. They're an extension of my executive function. I'm doing it with them interactively. You and I did a show a long time ago on working memory where there's this whole thing we did with six words where we put backwards, which I can't go into right now, but maybe people go check it out. Is literally just having somebody asking you questions. What do you got to do today? Where are the challenges? They're actually helping your executive functions. And it's again, it's direct conversation that's going back and forth. That's goal directed. And the other thing I want to learning is the digestion of information. Problem solving is the execution of it. So that's why coaches are important. I get on the phone, you get on the phone. We're asking questions to help them direct and solve their problems. So that's also where it's manifesting. But you don't have to pay us to do that. If you know what's going on and you search, you'll find other people. And there's a lot of other people that are doing this. Like those people that kind of talk a lot. Right. All you have to do is go up and say, hey, come here. You got a minute? You're a thought leader. Can I talk out loud for a second? You'd be surprised at how ubiquitous.

[B]

So can we, can we have these? If we, if, if we own it and we have that awareness and acceptance and all those things we talked about, I'm imagining we could also kind of do a variation of this on our own. You brought up an example, like clean the office and it's easier to have somebody else. I'm the opposite. You know, if I'm going to clean my office, I want, I want to do it by myself. I want to, you know, because I just, I, I find that I, I work better like that. Take the, Take the working environment. Okay. I've talked to so many people. Oh, I go to a coffee shop. I love the buzz in the background that, forget it. I wouldn't get a thing done. I like complete silence, you know, so there are, I believe, instances where we can execute this type of strategy you're talking about on our own. If we have the Right. Kind of. So there's monologue going on in our head. Right.

[C]

There's a lot of. First of all, there's a lot of situational variability, and you have difference in styles. Some people, they have to leave things out. That's a working memory issue. Some people, if it's out, it creates a problem with their working memory. It's the same challenge, but the way it manifest is a little differently. So you have to be careful. One size fits all.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's other very, very subtle situational differences. Like if you say, I like cleaning on your own, there's probably a couple other variables that are going around in the background where you're actually blocking out larger blocks of time. And there's other types of things that you do externally that helps you kind of go through that. I don't have the time to, to do that because really, when I say problem solving, when you do it in mind, that's where the impairment is. If you do it out of mind, that's fine. That's why visual stuff is there. But it, the, the, the reality crux that I was. I'm grateful that you come on. Is to say everybody is. When you got something you're having a hard time with, if you look at it, you'll be surprised. Just say, what am I not clear on? And say, listen, can I talk through this with somebody? It's not going to work 100 every time, but I think if you do it enough, you'll be surprised. It's going to help you a lot more than just sitting there avoiding it.

[B]

Yeah. And I agree. You and I have all had these multiple occasions where you're working one on one with somebody, and maybe you did kind of subtly suggest a type of way to mitigate something, and they're like, oh, crap, no, I didn't do that, or I didn't do that, or that's a great idea, or I never thought of it that way. Right. I mean, and you engaged. You engaged their problem solving. Right?

[C]

Yeah. But here's, here's. This is. This is a true story. Because sometimes you can be in the room with somebody. By the way, sometimes this is happening when you're body doubling. But there's a woman I was coaching just before lockdown, I was very early in relationship, and I said, I want you to go notice everything that you're putting off because of procrastination. She, no, it's not because of fear. I'm like, no, just look for it. Just look for it. So lockdown happens, and a couple Days later I get this text. Oh my God. So I call her up and I go, what's. Oh my God. She says, I get it. I go, what do you mean? She said, well, I'm sitting here at home doing this thing on a computer and there's a series of steps and I forgot a step. And it's like I realized normally at work I just lean over and ask the person next to me. They give me the thing and I'm right back at it. Well, the person's not next to me. So I instant messaged a co worker. She said, I didn't know she's at her desk or she was looking this. And so I was waiting. I went up to go get a cup of coffee and I never went back. So we talked about it and she's like, yeah, I'm sure that, that the procedure is somewhere on the company's intranet, but she didn't know where it was, so she didn't go find it. And so ambiguity is, I don't know what this step is and I don't necessarily know go to find it. This, this is a two second thing that in that environment with somebody there, you lean over, boom, and you get back to it or you go online. I had to fill out a form for somebody because they're going to pay me a per diem for something and I have an LLC. The form was a W9 and the way theirs was, they had different kinds of LLCs, but not mine. And I'm like, what the hell is this? And I'm like, I struggle with it and I checked the wrong box. That created a huge problem for me having the ability to say, what does this mean? Like, that's ambiguity. Like, where am I having that conversation? That can be the difference between success and failure. And because, because what I just described on that form, it happens so much that people aren't aware of it. You just sometimes need to talk to. So. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm interpreting that correctly. Or what's that? And again, this is why it's hidden in plain sight, because nobody sees it that way. But it can be.

[B]

I think we should rename adhd. Ambiguity should stand for ambiguity, not attention anymore.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

All right. This was a great conversation and I'm glad you're, you're working on this because it, it is, it's definitely important. It's. It makes total sense, right, that we can figure out how to problem solve with communication and these things that are.

[C]

Yeah, everybody, honestly, I, I said a mass thing to a whole bunch of people that have interviewed me in the past when I brought this thing up. My end game is to get this into Americans with Disability act so that those with ADHD can actually get this. I just need a little help talking through some stuff as a legitimate accommodation, both in school and work. That's my end game. Right. And my argument is it's an executive functioning impairment because it's less efficient. You need a little bit more help. Let's quit trying harder. You know, people with ADHD get more burnt out. It goes right back to, it's less efficient. They got to spend more energy to do the thing. If you think about it, makes a lot of sense. And I'm great grateful for this opportunity to get the word out, because literally anybody that can help me get to these people and bring validity to it, I'd be grateful for. Because this is about helping everybody on the planet with adhd. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Try differently, not harder.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

So, yeah. Thanks, Heidi. Sir. Hey, thanks for stopping by.

[C]

Always learning.

[B]

Always, always love chatting with you. So thank you again for your. Your work in this area and your guidance and expertise and getting up every day and doing it over.