Ep 675 - The Kid Who Ran For President, by Dan Gutman

Summary

Podcast Summary: Overdue Episode 675 - "The Kid Who Ran For President" by Dan Gutman

Introduction

In Episode 675 of Overdue, hosted by Headgum, Andrew and Craig delve into Dan Gutman's children's book, The Kid Who Ran For President. Released on November 4, 2024, this episode serves as an election special, intertwining discussions about the book with contemporary political anxieties surrounding the election season.

Host Introductions and Context

The episode opens with Craig and Andrew introducing themselves and framing the discussion within the context of the ongoing election. Craig emphasizes the importance of voting, prompting listeners to consider their voting plans:

• Craig (02:04): "I will be at the poll at my neighborhood polling station all day, working in the polls, helping people vote and find their polling place."

Overview of "The Kid Who Ran For President"

Andrew recounts his childhood experience with the book, noting its original publication in 1996 and a subsequent E-Book update in 2012 aimed at modernizing the content for new generations. The hosts critique the book’s attempt to stay relevant, highlighting aspects that feel outdated or incongruent with contemporary political realities:

• Andrew (03:51): "A lot of what we're going to be talking about today is how that in this book especially like really, really doesn't work and seems so like, silly that it kind of defeats the purpose of doing it."

Discussion on Dan Gutman

The conversation shifts to Dan Gutman's background, exploring his career as a children's author and his ventures into various genres, including sports and humorous essays. Gutman's creative evolution is discussed, emphasizing his ability to engage young readers with quirky and imaginative storylines:

• Craig (05:12): "He has like book quizzes and trailers and things for all of his. It's a good. This is a decent website."

Political Parallels and Satire

Andrew and Craig draw parallels between the book's protagonist, Judson Moon, and real-world political figures, notably Donald Trump. They explore how the book inadvertently foreshadows aspects of the 2016 election, such as anti-establishment sentiments and unconventional campaign strategies:

• Craig (12:27): "The Scholastic website has a link to an Indiewire piece about, like, it's, like, on the Scholastic website, the featured on the John Oliver Show."

Gutman's 2012 update to the book is examined, revealing changes that attempt to modernize the narrative but often result in inconsistencies:

• Andrew (10:27): "What else do you want to talk about first before we talk about the book?"

Character Analysis and Themes

Judson Moon, a 12-year-old from Madison, Wisconsin, serves as a satirical lens through which Gutman critiques the American political system. The hosts analyze Moon's interactions, campaign strategies, and the superficiality of political operatives depicted in the book:

• Craig (41:20): "And Judson is instant. Instantly. Like immediately he's like, oh, it's Abby. It's got to be Abby for First Babe."

The dynamic between Judson and his campaign manager, Lane Brainard, is scrutinized for its portrayal of manipulative political tactics and lack of genuine leadership:

• Andrew (25:02): "Judson Moon, you just gotta let Moon be Moon. You do. You gotta, you do."

Modernization Attempts and Their Shortcomings

The hosts critique the 2012 update, pointing out anachronisms and technological references that feel out of place, such as mentions of Facebook, Twitter, and Tumblr. These updates attempt to align the book with the digital age but often miss the mark, creating a disjointed narrative:

• Craig (71:35): "We jump from Facebook to Twitter to Tumblr to invent a heretofore unmentioned character."

Election Night and Climactic Events

The discussion moves to the book’s portrayal of election night, highlighting unrealistic electoral outcomes and the abrupt constitutional amendments that facilitate Judson Moon’s presidency. Andrew and Craig express skepticism about the feasibility of such events, noting their divergence from actual political processes:

• Andrew (75:35): "Not like my deal with Judson Moon."

The culmination of Judson’s campaign leads to a satirical commentary on the American political system, showcasing the futility and mockery inherent in Moon’s presidency:

• Craig (77:55): "It's the bleakest satire in the book."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Andrew and Craig wrap up the episode by reflecting on the book’s satirical elements and its relevance to modern political discourse. They acknowledge the challenges of updating children's literature to stay pertinent while maintaining its essence and appeal:

• Andrew (98:52): "It's a hard era to try and update for because so much about like, society and especially kidd dumb and childhood and like, teenager dumb is so, so different than it was like, pre Internet that you can't just like, pre Internet, pre smartphone, pre social media."

The hosts encourage listeners to engage in the political process, tying back to the episode’s initial emphasis on voting and civic responsibility.

Notable Quotes

1. Craig (02:04): "I will be at the poll at my neighborhood polling station all day, working in the polls, helping people vote and find their polling place."
2. Andrew (03:51): "A lot of what we're going to be talking about today is how that in this book especially like really, really doesn't work and seems so like, silly that it kind of defeats the purpose of doing it."
3. Craig (12:27): "The Scholastic website has a link to an Indiewire piece about, like, it's, like, on the Scholastic website, the featured on the John Oliver Show."
4. Craig (41:20): "And Judson is instant. Instantly. Like immediately he's like, oh, it's Abby. It's got to be Abby for First Babe."
5. Andrew (98:52): "It's a hard era to try and update for because so much about like, society and especially kidd dumb and childhood and like, teenager dumb is so, so different than it was like, pre Internet that you can't just like, pre Internet, pre smartphone, pre social media."

Final Notes

Throughout the episode, Overdue offers a critical yet humorous examination of The Kid Who Ran For President, using it as a springboard to discuss broader themes in politics and literature. Andrew and Craig adeptly balance nostalgia with modern critiques, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the book's relevance and shortcomings in today's political climate.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

That pesky, scary guy is gone. But what, you know, it's November.

[Andrew]

It's a whole nother thing to be scared.

[Craig]

It's a whole other thing to be scared about, Andrew. It's our election special.

[Andrew]

It's. It's election season. We're recording this on October 25, which is, which is holding election day at like a comfortable remove. I don't know that I could actually have recorded whatever we're about to do on like November 3rd.

[Craig]

Yep. Huh.

[Andrew]

So glad we've built ourselves this, this like, buffer where we can, you know, we can just like bask in uncertainty.

[Craig]

Process some anxiety through laughs and gaffes and goofs and poofs and we get.

[Andrew]

To read a book that I feel like I've referenced on this podcast many, multiple times.

[Craig]

A lot of times we are going to talk about the kid who ran for president by Dan Gutman. But first, let me remind you that here in the United States, election day is November 5th. I. I have a question for you, the listener. What is your voting plan?

[Andrew]

What is your voting plan?

[Craig]

When are you gonna do it? How are you going to do it? I will tell. I will.

[Andrew]

How many, how many times are you going to do it?

[Craig]

Drew? I will be at the poll at my neighborhood polling station all day, working in the polls, helping people vote and find their polling place. And I will then take a minute out of my time to go vote myself. You're in your location at home. You might have some early voting options. You might have a mail in ballot still to return. But if you have any questions, go to vote.gov if you need assistance on mechanics, on like the details of voting for your situation, or maybe seek out your state secretary of state website or your local election commission. They can help you if you have any questions. Because you should probably vote. It is. If you're listening to this on the first day that this episode drops, it is tomorrow.

[Andrew]

So, like, it is tomorrow.

[Craig]

Make a plan, tell some other people and like, it's okay to hold your nose and do it and still be mad about a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, you're probably going to be mad about a lot of stuff anyway. Just Like, I'm going to be mad about a lot of stuff in this week's book.

[Andrew]

So I read the Kid who Ran for President when I was a child.

[Craig]

And when, when you ran for president.

[Andrew]

When I ran for president and lost. It was a bad. It was a bad candidacy.

[Craig]

I don't think I've ever read.

[Andrew]

I didn't have any money.

[Craig]

I don't think I ever read this.

[Andrew]

Book before the original came out in 1996. The, the version that we read, the E Book version, is dated 2012. And because it is a scholastic joint, as they have done with many other books that we've read, they did do some updates at some point in the 2000s to modernize it for modern kids.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And so a lot of what we're going to be talking about today is how that in this book especially like really, really doesn't work and seems so like, silly that it kind of defeats.

[Craig]

The purpose of doing it.

[Andrew]

But what else do we want to talk about first before we talk about the book?

[Craig]

Well, we should talk about Mr. Dan Gutman.

[Andrew]

We should talk about Mr. Dan Gutman, who's a. Who's an author of children's books. Born in 1955.

[Craig]

Yes. He moved to Newark at the age of one, which is very brave of him. And he did go to Rutgers. Graduated 1997.

[Andrew]

His blurry, ancient Wikipedia picture is of him in a Philly shirt. Now that's got to be what.

[Craig]

Very brave of him to wear a. Not brave actually very cool of him to wear a Philly shirt. In Wikipedia it says speaking at a school in 2011. The Phillies were very good in 2011 until the post season. It was very sad, similar to this year in 2024. So I just feel like I'm communing with this man who in many of other. Many other photos he has like goofy shirts that like I dare you to read on them or made you read. Haha. Kind of like goofy I'm a children's author shirts.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Which I respect.

[Andrew]

And this one is like a different kind of goofy.

[Craig]

It is actually the Phillies shirt. He left grad school, he was studying psychology. He started writing humorous essays, got humorous essay, got some stuff published in Cracked, among other, like, you know, goofy magazines. He did start a video game magazine in the 80s after Pac Man Fever. Andrew.

[Andrew]

Everybody caught that.

[Craig]

It was called Video Games Player and it was later renamed just to computer games, which is very bold. He did get one of his Games columns syndicated, though the magazine was out of business by 1985. I don't know how related to the video game crash that was. I'm sure that didn't help. And then he was freelancing in magazine.

[Andrew]

What year did you say?

[Craig]

85. Because the crash.

[Andrew]

85. That would have been different. That would have been a couple years after. Yeah. Like I think Nintendo would have been on the horizon.

[Craig]

Yeah. By then. Yeah. He started writing about sports in 1987. His first book was called it ain't cheating if you don't get caught. I think it was about like different stuff in baseball. I don't have it here. I don't remember. I think it's about.

[Andrew]

I like going from video games to regular sports. Have you heard of the. Have you heard of these non video games that they play? These are wild.

[Craig]

And in 1992 he started writing sports nonfiction after having a son. I think that's where that first book comes from. And then in 94 he writes his first kids novel. They came from center field. That's one of those published. Yeah. It's all. So he's still writing sports stuff. He says of why he liked writing sports books. It's the only kind of entertainment where nobody knows the outcome in advance. I have you seen the refs Dan in the NBA? Excuse me, what else? He's the author of the My weird school series. And there's like 100 books in that series apparently. But yeah, it just seems like. It seems like a nice guy who likes that kids read his books, that kids are always excited for more books and that he kind of gets to explore different topics by doing so.

[Andrew]

His website's got a lot of. Just in the banner across the top has a lot of fun titles including Rappy the Raptor.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Who is a raptor with a backwards bass.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

There's a book called Wait, what the Beatles couldn't read Music.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah. He has like book quizzes and trailers and things for all of his. It's a good. This is a decent website. I've been on a lot of author websites. This one's decent.

[Craig]

That's good.

[Andrew]

That's what I have to say about it.

[Craig]

This book, as Andrew said, came out October 1, 1996, right in the thick of the Clinton Dole campaign. Per the Scholastic Website awards it was nominated or selected for include the Junior Library Guild, Iowa Children's Choice Award nominee, Mod Hart Lovelace Award nominee, Minnesota Sasquatch Award nominee, Washington Sequoia Book Award nominee, Oklahoma Sunshine State Young Readers Award nominee, Florida Texas Blue Bonnet Award nominee, Young Hoosier Book Award nominee, Indiana. In case you didn't know what a Hoosier was. Sure some blurbs include this snappy light hearted farce will win kids votes. Publishers Weekly says this humorous, fun, informative book will be a fun read anytime. School Library Journal says this probably would.

[Andrew]

Have been a book fair.

[Craig]

Seems like a big book fair. Get.

[Andrew]

I'm not and I'm not. I wasn't like particularly interested in elections as a kid though. My. Yeah, I wasn't interested in politics from a very young age. But one of my earliest, like probably my earliest political memory is my parents having an argument because my dad was way into Ross Perot in 1992.

[Craig]

I think my dad was into Ross Perot.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But my mom had gotten to the polling place and was like I'm not going to throw my vote away and voted for Bush and stuff. Like he was not happy about it.

[Craig]

That's what, what is up with that? What I mean, I don't know. Dad's being interested in Ross Perot like helped change. Yeah.

[Andrew]

But I don't like, I don't know if that. I think in the specific window between like 92 and 96. Perot ran again in 96 and didn't do nearly well. But it was still. But in 92 he did like as well as any independ presidential candidate had done ever in like decades and decades maybe ever. Yeah. And I think it opened up like a space for third party candidacies to be taken more seriously that this book really, really relies on. That's a good point to make itself work. And so it's two, two things about the timing of this book being 1996 that I wanted to make. One was the Ross Perot thing. Number two is in the, in the original version of the book and I have a very badly OCR PDF version of it that I dug up.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

When I noticed a bunch of stuff that they had changed. But it's very important in the book that the election that is coming up is the 2000 election.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And there's a lot of stuff in there about how it's the year 2000, it's a new millennium, it's time for the kids to take over.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's funny.

[Andrew]

So we could talk about that somewhere later. Yeah, that's just some like table setting stuff for the era. This book was like birthed into it.

[Craig]

It reminds me of like. I think my earliest political memories are actually just reruns of SNL that prominently featured the Dana Carvey Perot, like as a main character do Perot too.

[Andrew]

And also he did HW and I think Joe Biden, a lot of. He's a lot of present guys.

[Craig]

Yeah. He's got the gift. He's got the magic. Right. This book did have a kind of a resurgence in 2016. It was featured on a show called Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.

[Andrew]

Maybe you've heard of it.

[Craig]

Maybe you've heard of it. And I've. The Scholastic website has a link to an Indiewire piece about, like, it's, like, on the Scholastic website, the featured on the John Oliver Show. And then I expected it to just go to a link of a video and. No, it's an Indiewire article about it that interviews Gutman, which is kind of neat. And it's. You know, I watched the video. I have nothing against John Oliver, and there was actually a time in my life where I was listening to his podcast, the Bugle, a lot. In the years since 2016, I think I've respected Oliver's deep dives into specific issues that don't get media coverage way more than I've enjoyed. Kind of goofy takes on taking down Donald Trump. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

I don't want to make the whole podcast about this, but that's.

[Andrew]

Sorry. And I'm going to take. I'm going to take off. I'm going to take off my drum fat real quick.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Because I feel. I'm feeling kind of attacked by this observation.

[Craig]

I think that stuff is just like, I feel. I get a pit in my stomach about how inadequate all of that feels in retrospect.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Whereas I do think he is capable of, like, actual comedic journalism, for what that's worth. But anyway, the piece is fine. It's like a. Hey, Trump, you could. You don't actually have to be president. This book lays out a way in which you could just, like, win and then, like, leave. Like, you don't actually have to do it. And he calls out a bunch of similarities. It's very silly. And if you've never heard of the book, it's like, wow, that somebody wrote this book about a kid. Whatever. Gutman says, it was very. Is it August 2016? Gutman says, like, this is very flattering. I watch this show all the time. It wasn't the first time that somebody pointed out to me that there were some startling parallels between what I wrote in the 2016 campaign. A few people have mentioned to me they thought there was a possibility that once he realized the reality of the situation, Trump might do the same thing that my character did if he did it. And it helped me Sell the book. I'd be very happy. It also says of the update, which I'm sure we'll talk about more. He last updated the book in time for the 2012 election, revising outdated reference to now obsolete technology like fax machines and CompuServe. And then at the end of it, Gutman says, I'd like the of. Of the like story of this type of candidate who is very silly and not taking it seriously and then wins anyway. I'd like the people of America to know about it. But Trump doesn't need to, I think is the closest that Gutman comes in that obviously I think we know where Gutman is politically a bit, at least from that interview. Relative to Trump though, this book is just skewering everybody, you know.

[Andrew]

Yeah. This is the interesting parallels to Trump and especially thinking Trump in the context of 2016, of 2016 in particular.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Is that Judson Moon and his campaign managers like critique of politics. It basically boils down to, man, neither of these parties knows what's going on.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Which I, which I think is as far as a lot of people's like political consciousness goes. And I'm not like knocking that because they are like there is a lot of bad stuff about.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

About the two party system. But this is like. So that's Judson Moon is. He's just like, man, the Democrats and the Republicans, they can't figure this out. Everybody's tired of them fighting and they're not getting anything done. And then also he does incite violence at one of his political rallies against somebody who criticizes him.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

For being insubstantial on the issues. Which I thought also was true to the way that Donald Trump does things.

[Craig]

Pretty harrowing stuff actually in the light of real 2016 and the rest. Donald Trump.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

So, yeah. It's a weird book. We're going to talk about it. Anything else about the political moment, Andrew, or should we take a quick break in 1996?

[Andrew]

I don't know. Probably not. Like we could talk about it all in line.

[Craig]

Yeah, sounds good.

[Andrew]

Yeah. My brain is just like vibrating because I'm dealing with like modern day anxiety and then also like what a different era this book is from.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then also trying to like graft it onto 2012 in the way that the update drives.

[Craig]

I was not expecting to need to like do timeline puzzle math to like really understand my reaction to this book. I think I was like ready to just be like, oh, it's weird reading this in 2024 and then needing to do the. Oh, but it would be weird to read this in 2012 and they tried to meet. That is like adds another weird layer to the exercise.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because the political environment in 1996 is like, yes, this is like post Newt Gingrich and things are getting a little more like people are throwing elbows a little bit more. But the vibe in general was still okay enough that you could have like the Supreme Court decide an election and everybody's just like, all right, I guess.

[Craig]

Well, and we're still pre Clinton impeachment at that point too.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

So like, you know, not to say that that is like, I don't know. That has always felt like a, a bit of an escalation in terms of what parties are trying to do to each other in the, in the arena. Overtly. Sure. You know, I mean Watergate people used to kill each. It's all bad. It's been all bad. And here we're going to read a book about a 12 year old who wades into it. Let's take a break. It's all bad. See you on the other side.

[Andrew]

Craig if you're a kid who ran for president, one of the first things you need to come up with is a campaign website.

[Craig]

That's true.

[Andrew]

And that's why I'm glad that this week's podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Because it's a website that helps you make websites whether you are running for president in a sort of an unconstitutional way, like the main character of this week's book does, or if you just have like a product or service that you want to let people know.

[Craig]

Run for president of your school board and use Squarespace to make that website.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Andrew Election Day isn't the only holiday coming up. The holidays are coming up.

[Andrew]

Oh, Election Day is kind of famously.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

Guess you could do that.

[Craig]

You could. And because it's like some of it's a microfiche, you can request a cool little magnifying glass to go with it so that you can read this tiny print. It's and it gets like, you know, bound in vegan leather and you know you can give it to your jets fan uncle and like merry Christmas. Like that's have fun loving the Jets. Like it's a pretty cool gift. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. Many of their handcrafted products are made in small batches. So you need to shop now before they sell out. Uncommon Goods looks for products that are high quality Unique and often handmade or made in the US. And Uncommon Goods has something for everyone. Not the same old selections you could find just everywhere. Of course, with every purchase you make at Uncommon Goods, they give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. And they've donated more than $3 million to date. So to get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com overdue. That's UncommonGoods.com overdue for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods. We are all out of the ordinary. Where should we start? Andrew?

[Andrew]

That's an amazing question. I mean, we could start with the prologue there.

[Craig]

This book has a prologue and this.

[Andrew]

Is, this is a thing that I did think was funny is there's a prologue that's like I got. This is a. This is from the perspective of the main character, Judson Moon, a 12 year old in Wisconsin. A 12 year old from Madison, Wisconsin, who runs for President of the United States.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And the prologue says, I got a lot of votes, enough to make me President of the United States. Well, you can peek at one, page 156 of this book and find out that is if you're a total weenie with the attention span of a flea. And then if you do turn to page 156, it's like, you idiot, I'm not gonna tell you what happened. Go back and read the book.

[Craig]

It's so weird and confrontational, but it's.

[Andrew]

Also like the kind of, the kind of clever that a kid who is used to. Just like I'm reading, I'm reading a book and it starts at the beginning and it goes to the end. And it is rarely if ever going to acknowledge to me that it's a. That it's a book and that it is playing with tropes and breaking the fourth wall and anything like that.

[Craig]

And Judson Moon is a bit of a wise crack.

[Andrew]

He's a real Bart Simpson. Yeah.

[Craig]

Or he fashions himself as one. And so having his book have a little prank in it.

[Andrew]

Does it feel like slacker Bart Simpson?

[Craig]

Yeah, he doesn't seem to have a drive to do anything as we'll discover why he wants running for president. It is night. It is 1999, I guess in the original book.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

And we are, we discovered Judson Moon and his buddy Lane Brainard shooting pool the day after election day night. The off cycle elections.

[Andrew]

Yes, off cycle elections in Wisconsin in 1999. I assume they're coming off of some kind of state Supreme Court race or something that they were both very excited about.

[Craig]

And yet the national news is all talking about the forthcoming presidential race and Congress and how the Democrats have just lost, recently lost control and the Republicans don't know what they're doing. And Lane, this is, this is Lane.

[Andrew]

Brainard who is supposed to be the really smart, like, super tuned in one. Yeah, as he says, the Democrats have been all messed up since they lost control of Congress, Lane explained as he chalked up a stick. And the Republicans are entirely clueless.

[Craig]

That's it. They're entirely clueless.

[Andrew]

And this makes, and this makes Judson Moon. He's like half the time the president doesn't know what he's doing either. I replied, I don't know much about politics, but I can usually fake it if I have to. And I think as a kid it did. Like the fact that Lane knew the names of the two major U.S. political parties did make me think that he must have been really smart and known stuff about politics. But I can't stress enough that the level of discourse here is like two children who are at the same level opining about how everybody is an idiot.

[Craig]

He is very like election newspilled, though.

[Andrew]

Yeah, they're watching Meet the Press and.

[Craig]

He gets activated when Moon kind of offhandedly is just like, ugh, a kid should be in charge.

[Andrew]

Well, Lane says that. I thought Lane, Lane says, you know who should be running this country? Moon, Lane said, lining up his next shot, a kid. And then Lane gets all high on his own supply and Judson Moon is like this. That's a weird, that's a weird thing. That's a weird thing to say. And also it's unconstitutional.

[Craig]

There are ways around that. This little Karl Rove says, he literally says, says there are ways around that.

[Andrew]

He says there are ways around that. And then he jumps from there pretty quickly to, hey, Judson Moon, you should run for president. You put people at ease, you make them laugh. People like that.

[Craig]

It's it. I have not.

[Andrew]

People don't want some nerd to be president.

[Craig]

I have not seen the film W by Oliver Stone, but I do recall a scene from the trailer that is basically this conversation. And Lane's justification for why he wants to wade into the political arena is that he was always too small to win King of the Hill Games. And so if he can get Moon across the finish line as president, then he will have won himself.

[Andrew]

So from the beginning, a grievance fueled campaign from Lane Brainard to get a kid to change the Constitution and to Make a kid president of the United States.

[Craig]

And Judson Moon goes, huh, that's interesting. He does say early in the book he's like, I haven't been hanging out with this kid very long, but we are friends and we do shoot pool together.

[Andrew]

We are friends. We do shoot pool together at. My longtime childhood friend Abby really doesn't like him.

[Craig]

Yep. She's not going to be a real big part of this book though. Even though I probably love her.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But like she's my girlfriend, I guess. But she doesn't like Lane. I don't like Lane either.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

Here. Okay. First. First. 1996-2012 Just fun, fun quotes.

[Craig]

Thank you for doing this work, Andrew. I'm always excited for this.

[Andrew]

This is on like the, the mild end of the changes is in the, in the 2012 edition. Lane says, you know, politicians aren't picked by a bunch of political cronies in smoke filled rooms anymore. Moon. It's all computers, image consultants, special interest groups, corporate bundle bundlers, online donations, media experts and advertising. Now they might as well be selling soap. So in. In his way making an observation about kind of the. The emptiness of the. And the superficiality of the exercise.

[Craig]

A weak party critique, you might say.

[Andrew]

Yes. In the original book he says, you know, politicians aren't picked by a bunch of political cronies in smoke filled rooms anymore. Moon. It's all computers, fax machines, image makers, media experts and advertising. Now they might as well be selling soap. So fax machines being removed the first. The first time to. And also a reference to special interest groups and corporate bundlers is the first change from 1996 election.

[Craig]

I do like that the fax machines are picking the candidates. The machines themselves.

[Andrew]

Well, you just have to know how to use fax machines.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

It's not that the fax machines are picky.

[Craig]

He replaced that with online donations, I suppose. So. Judd has this weird conversation with his friend. Walks. Starts walking home. He has an encounter with June Sires, the old black lady in his neighborhood. Judd's white. Lane's white sires is here. Older black lady in the neighborhood used.

[Andrew]

To babysit for him.

[Craig]

Yes, she. She has Parkinson's, I think, he says. And when they start talking about the presidency, she says that the first, first and last person that she voted for was fdr.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

And I believe Judd makes a comment or I don't remember if it's her or him that says that like not even Obama. She didn't even vote for Obama. The reverse get out situation. She wouldn't have Voted for Obama even if he ran for a third term.

[Andrew]

The original book is. There's a. The. The new book says Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan, Obama. None of them were worth voting for. And in the original, it just says Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Reagan. None of them were worth voting for. Now, I do know Obama.

[Craig]

I do. I did some math here, Andrew. My. My question is how old?

[Andrew]

How old?

[Craig]

So if the first and only president she ever voted for was FDR at her youngest, I believe the suffrage age was 18 in 1926, I think. I don't think it had. Right.

[Andrew]

It is the. Let me. Hold on. Let me just check the 26th Amendment real fast.

[Craig]

That's fine. This is gonna be the podcast I love.

[Andrew]

There's gonna be a lot of. Okay, the 26th amendment established the nationally standardized minimum age of 18.

[Craig]

Oh, so maybe it was different in different states.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay, when was that amendment?

[Andrew]

That amendment was 71. It was partially in response to the fact that you could be drafted at 18, but you couldn't vote until you're 18.

[Craig]

Hey, that's sort of what this book argues a little bit later, sort of in its weird way. So anyway, let's presume that she voted for FDR.

[Andrew]

She was 18 before the 26th amendment. States had the authority to set their own minimum voting ages, which was typically 21, but it could have been lower than that. So let's be. Let's be charitable and say it was 18.

[Craig]

So that's 1926.

[Andrew]

Which means she was born. Yes, that.

[Craig]

Which means that when the book was written, 1996, she's 73 or 74. When the book is intended to be set is 99, 2000. So she's what, 76 or 77. The book is then updated to take place in 2012, and nothing about this has been updated. So she is now 86. And if you are reading it meant to be set in the present day, which, of course, the book is not referencing 2012 at all. She's 98 years old. This becomes very important a little later in the book.

[Andrew]

Now, is this. If she voted for FDR the last time, she could have voted for FDR.

[Craig]

Or the first time if 80.

[Andrew]

Because she could have voted. She could have voted for FDR four different times.

[Craig]

Oh, God, you're right. Yeah, she could be even older. That doesn't help, actually. So he's talking to his ancient, like, vampire neighbor.

[Andrew]

Or else she was just like, yeah, I voted for Decrepit, like, three months from death, FDR in his last term.

[Craig]

That's how I Wanted my original because.

[Andrew]

I wanted a firm hand at the wheel for the end of World War II.

[Craig]

So you know, they talk about the thing and he says that he's gonna run for president. There's a school. This is like. I guess he's talking about it at school now. And there's this kid named Arthur Krantz. Booger boy.

[Andrew]

Everybody hates Arthur Krantz.

[Craig]

He dresses like a little baby lawyer.

[Andrew]

And the thing about this whole lunchroom scene is just a bunch of the names are different for no reason.

[Craig]

Oh, weird.

[Andrew]

It's not even that it like significantly changes the balance of boys and girls who are at the lunch table. It's just like all the names are different.

[Craig]

Are they all still saying that things that are cool are cosmic?

[Andrew]

They are saying that things are cooler cosmic. One of them in the original book does say what they're going to do on New Year's Eve is they're going to party all night because it's the new millennium.

[Craig]

Oh, wow.

[Andrew]

Which does not. Which doesn't happen. Which doesn't happen in the updated flavor of book.

[Craig]

That could be.

[Andrew]

Yeah but in this book it's just like some, someone saying I'm going to play video games.

[Craig]

Okay, okay. Arthur Krantz hates Judson Moon because Judson Moon was a jerk.

[Andrew]

Was a huge jerk to him. Yep.

[Craig]

Weird. I do. Moon does have actually a level of self awareness throughout the book that is. That does make the ending of the book, however ludicrous it is sort of make sense. Even if, even if he allows himself to be pushed into different directions. I don't have much about this lunchroom scene. It's just like the kids are into it. He's got.

[Andrew]

Okay, I've popular just, just a series of things about the lunchroom. Please tell me there is there one in the original book one of the kids does do that stupid nerd thing where they say oh, it's the turn of the millennium in 2001, not 2000.

[Craig]

Oh my God, the new manium.

[Andrew]

In the updated book, Arthur Krantz says, oh yeah, if the president and the vice president die, who becomes president? Judson Moon says, that's easy. I said Chuck Norris. In the original book it's Arnold Schwarzenegger. I argued that even in 2012 Arnold Schwarzenegger would have been a better, funnier, more current answer than Chuck Norris. I don't know that elementary school kids in 2012 are still making Chuck Norris jokes.

[Craig]

I mean I, I was that that website was roll rocking and rolling in the aughts. So maybe gutman got exposed to it, you know, couldn't help.

[Andrew]

There are a bunch of things that suggest that this actually was refreshed sometime in like the very late 2000s and. Or the very early, very, very early 2010s.

[Craig]

Corporate bundlers. Screams like Great Recession to me.

[Andrew]

Yeah. You know, and then there's a. There's a scene later that we'll talk about where they're counting up electoral votes. And the number of electoral votes has been updated, but it's been updated to the 2000 map and not to the 2010 map. So they're not using 90s numbers anymore. But they're also not what they should.

[Craig]

Be for 2012, which is interesting because of other Scholastic books we've read. Do seem to have this like the. The machine is. Is on fire from how quickly we ran this thing to print. And like this book seems like it had a pretty long lead time maybe in the refresh. Okay. So after the lunchroom scene, they go out and they get the petition signed. They had 2,000 signatures. I did double check. I went to Ballotpedia for independent candidates in Wisconsin. 2000 signatures is all you need.

[Andrew]

Do you need to tell them how old you are? Well, that is in this they just leave the age off.

[Craig]

In my experience putting my own name and information on a petition to be on a ballot, you do actually have to be a qualified candidate or else people could, you know, challenge your candidacy now.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Craig]

I, I suppose he could get on the ballot without any challengers coming forward and then that wouldn't, you know, hit him until he hits the general election. This book has a weird timeline where independent candidates in Wisconsin don't have to file until August. This is all taking place in the fall of 1999.

[Andrew]

Yes, in the late fall, just after the. The again a blistering off year election in Wisconsin in 1999 that they're talking about on me the press the first.

[Craig]

Time the book references like polling of the three major candidates, Judson Moon included. It's like February of the election year.

[Andrew]

And the primary. Like there's primary president who's running again? Yeah, whoever is. Is the prime. I forget which party is in the White House.

[Craig]

Okay. Republicans hold the White House. It is. He's is a guy from Ohio. His name is George White, of course.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And he's fine probably. But people don't like him because he's the president. And then there is Senator Herbert Dunn from West Virginia.

[Andrew]

He's a Democrat from West Virginia.

[Craig]

Dog Democrat.

[Andrew]

This was still. I mean, I guess, I guess if you're updating in 2012, a Democrat from West Virginia still, like, I think Joe Manchin won his first election in, like, 2010. Right. Like, you could still get elected statewide Cleveland governor in 2016. Like, Clinton still a Democrat until he switched. So, like, yeah, you could still do it, I guess.

[Craig]

Clinton won West Virginia.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

Both times, I think. So that's. That's kind of the West Virginia that we're, that we're talking about here. But those don't get introduced. But anyway, yeah, it's a weird, like, timeline for this book where he is, like, exploring a presidential run, like, nine months before the filing deadline for an independent candidate. Right. But of course, you do need to, like, build your campaign.

[Andrew]

You know, you need to raise money and all. Like, we'll talk about.

[Craig]

He does tell his parents, and they don't. His parents are interesting characters that the book does not have time for because.

[Andrew]

They each have one characteristic. And for both of them, it's the boring, boring place where they work and the jobs they do.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And all they can do is think and talk about what? His dad sells boxes and his mom sells carpet tiles.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And those are the jobs that they.

[Craig]

Have when they come home from work. They're both really beat. It seems like they use up all their thinking at the office, so they don't have much energy for thinking at home. And listen, it's election season. I think, you know, you and I have been talking about this. I think the majority of undecided voters are not actually undecided on the issues. They're undecided on whether or not they're going to take time. Because truly they. Their lives depend on whether or not they can sell enough carpet tiles. Like, I think it is just this is. This spoke to me that these were his parents. Even though it's like kind of classic 90s detached parent trope kind of stuff, it is the, like. No, these are the people who do not have time for horse race politics nonsense because they're just trying to work their, like, demanding middle management jobs or whatever it is.

[Andrew]

You know, mom and dad have come home from work and they're both reading magazines. And Mom's magazine is called Progressive Floor Covering, which does suggest that she is on, like, the left side of the political spectrum.

[Craig]

How do I. How do I sell these carpet tiles to the dsa?

[Andrew]

Yeah. And dad is reading Box World Monitor, which does seem.

[Craig]

The word monitor.

[Andrew]

That does seem kind of like lightly never Trump coded to me.

[Craig]

A little to read a little Ross Perot. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Just because you Know, it's conservative, but it's kind of, you know, it's regimented in a way that I feel like it's still traditional media Trump style. Conservatism is not. We're going to talk about media in this book because. My God.

[Craig]

Oh my God. There's a quick scene. They don't really pay attention to him when he says he's going to run for president. His dad, he asked dad if his ever run for anything. His dad says, yeah, the bus. And then I like public transit.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Oh yeah, he's a, he's a public transit stand. Okay, sure. Transit riders union unite. And then there's a scene with his friend Abby where she's like, so what's this? And he's like, yeah, I mean, Lane wants me to do it. See you later, Abby. I thought that there would be a scene where she's like, wow, Judson, you've changed. Like I honestly thought this book would like just do the predictable thing where his best friend would be like, you're different now. And he does kind of hit that emotional place later. But not by this character at all. She doesn't. She barely speaks in the rest of the book.

[Andrew]

She barely speaks. And then Lane is a big jerk about her. Yes, in a way. So Abby's full name is Abby Goldstein also.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And huh. Lane and Judson are talking, I think in, in like the, the next scene or one.

[Craig]

The next whole scene is strategy time for me.

[Andrew]

Yes. So, so this, this chapter of the book is called the First Babe because they have to find a, a 12 year old girl for. To be the first lady for Judson Moon's presidential campaign. They also do. You can talk about the vice presidential stuff. I want to talk about the First Babe.

[Craig]

Yeah, please talk about the First Babe.

[Andrew]

And Judson is instant. Instantly. Like immediately he's like, oh, it's Abby. It's got to be Abby for First Babe. And Lane has a big pause where he's trying to think about the nicest way to tell Judson that he thinks Abby is an uggo and that she couldn't possibly be. This book is unhinged. And I just like it is both really mean to Abby and also I think Lane might be anti Semitic.

[Craig]

I think you might be right.

[Andrew]

Because he had to stop and think about a way to say no, it can't be Abby without this book. Does a lot of. Oh, well, you're telling me a kid can't be president? Well, until recently, women and black people didn't have the franchise Things can change. And it just really. It just really makes me think that Lane is anti Semitic.

[Craig]

There's a lot.

[Andrew]

Because he doesn't. He doesn't want. He doesn't also want to be pushing on the. On the door of, oh, let's get a Jewish first lady in there, you know?

[Craig]

Yes. Lane is a vehicle for a lot of the book's critique of political operatives, and it is not there to, like, subvert them. He is actually just like, like doing the things that campaigns do that Gutman wants to mock or call attention to in a, like a. A morally hollow way. And it just so happens to be a 12 year old benefiting another 12 year old as opposed to political parties. The other part of strategy time. So, yes.

[Andrew]

Well, they. So they do. They pick a. Her name's Chelsea something.

[Craig]

Chelsea. Chelsea. Blonde girl.

[Andrew]

Yeah, just like a classic, like, blonde girl. Like, hot blonde girl.

[Craig]

There's a reference to YouTube in the 2012 version where she's like, hey, are you talking to me for YouTube?

[Andrew]

She says, in the original book. Are you camcording me or something?

[Craig]

I do love this. Like, Even in the 2012 version, there is. I don't remember who it is. Maybe it's like the AP reporter later in the book who says, like, this story is gonna go up on every web space site on the net. And like, we as a society have left behind calling it the Net. We had a lot of options. I think some people maybe even jokingly say information superhighway still. But nobody says the Net anymore. We say the. Some people say the web, some people just say social media. But yeah, it was very, very bizarre how that's handled. Do you want to.

[Andrew]

You want to talk? We'll talk about that reporter when it comes. When it comes.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah. Other things in strategy time. First they figure out that it's going to be an independent party because they're like, what are you, a Democrat or Republican? No, no, no, you're an Independent. Then they do slogan time. Here are all the slogans. Vote for me, I'll set you free. And Lane goes, don't make people feel like they're enslaved. That's literally what he says. It's very bizarre. Moon for president. Very basic. Don't be a loon. Vote for moon. Shoot for the moon. And Lane goes, do you want to put a target on your back moon? Let him orbit you. What is happening?

[Andrew]

Everyone agrees that that's bad.

[Craig]

You got it.

[Andrew]

Sometimes you get to your worst idea right before you get to the one.

[Craig]

And then they get to Moon, he makes waves, which I love personally. And they both go, this isn't it, but it's close. And then they have their running mate discussion.

[Andrew]

This is us. Every time we name a new mini series podcast.

[Craig]

Yeah. The first guy that comes up is Krantz slash booger boy. And they're like, no, that wouldn't work. You hate each other. And then they go, what about a grownup? And I do appreciate that. Moon's first thought is, what about my dad? I guess, like, I don't have any other ideas.

[Andrew]

I know like three grownups. Then he's one of them.

[Craig]

And he does know three. He knows his mom is dad and he knows June Sires. And Lane pauses again. He goes, that's great. And in classic, like, big tent party fashion, he immediately is like, here are all the demographics that she will check as a balance to your ticket, including.

[Andrew]

The grown up Democrats.

[Craig]

She's a grown up. She's black. She has Parkinson's. So he thinks she's a woman. You know, she's a woman. Mm. And so he's. They. They settle on a slogan of Moon and June, which is fine. Which is fine.

[Andrew]

I mean, it's more of a yard sign than a slogan. I'm not. I'm not gonna lie.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's kind of. It's not a slogan. They do also talk about renaming his bird Snot to be Cuddles, which will. Which will come back later. They talk about the first babe, and they decide that they need $20 million to launch their campaign. Now, I don't. I don't think that this means that they will only need $20 million, but they will need $20 million to launch a national campaign.

[Andrew]

I just want to. So in the 2008 election, which, let's be charitable and say was. That was the one that had happened most recently.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

So this is. This is an election. So in the 2004 election, Howard Dean in the Democratic primary. Yeah. Howard Dean of screaming fame.

[Craig]

He and Edward Wynch.

[Andrew]

You imagine the stuff that tanked presidential tickets.

[Craig]

I hate it.

[Andrew]

Before 2016, it's so wild. He had a lot of success getting, like, small dollar online donations, which. The Internet being, like, firmly established but not as entrenched in political circles yet this was still kind of an innovative thing.

[Craig]

Well, social media was barely a thing at that point.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah. And so in 2008, when Obama in particular is running, but a lot of other candidates were running in the primaries on both sides that year, this was the first election in a while that most of the like, big candidates declined public funding for their. So if you remember from doing taxes, there's a little checkbox. It's like, hey, do you want to donate to the presidential election fund? And that in the, in the day used to be a major, like, it was. It was both a contributor to major party presidential campaigns. Like, you needed to have a. To get this money. You would have needed to have gotten like a certain percentage of the popular vote in the last election. So Judson Moon would not have been eligible. He still would have had to do his own independent fundraising. But they stop using this. So there are fewer restrictions on their ability to do small dollar fundraising. And Barack Obama raises, through the totality of the 2008 campaign, $778,642,962.

[Craig]

That's cool. People have spent over half a billion dollars on Pennsylvania in the year 2024. It's so cool.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like, Harris had one. Like, I think her September was like 300 and something million dollars. Just like by itself. But so, yeah, just this is just to say that even if you're talking in 2012, to say yes, $20 million, that will get us going. Nope, it's not quite.

[Craig]

Well, he gets a lot of. He gets a lot of like, what is it called? Like, earned. It's not earned. Media. What is it? What is the term for like, what is. Well, we're going to talk about the press next. So he gets a lot of press coverage that earned.

[Andrew]

Earned media is right.

[Craig]

Okay, thank you. So that's Lane's. Lane is like, we got to raise $20 million. And Judson Moon is like, that's not possible. And he's like, watch me work.

[Andrew]

Watch me cook.

[Craig]

I invented Karl Rove. It's me, it's me.

[Andrew]

I'm Carl.

[Craig]

He Googles the Cap Times, which I don't know what newspaper that is. And he.

[Andrew]

I think it must be because Madison's the capital of Wisconsin.

[Craig]

Sure. He finds a man named Pete Guerra who will forever represent journalism in this book, who, whose last article was about.

[Andrew]

Baby seals at a zoo, who's like, mom died.

[Craig]

And he basically pokes this man's ego until he decides that he will come and talk to a 12 year old about running for president because no one at the Wisconsin Secretary of State's office has declined this kid's petition to be on the ballot for being 12. So they're gonna raise money with a lemonade stand. June Sires is. There she is. June is spouting truths. They're talking about the good old days. And June says there were no good old days. The good old days is anything that happens before you're old enough to see the world as it really is. I like June.

[Andrew]

June Sires is good. I really, I. What I get frustrated with a little bit is like the, the what happens immediately before that conversation is Lane. Yeah, we're gonna have a, we're gonna.

[Craig]

He.

[Andrew]

He has got this big picture thing where the lemonade stand is just a prop he's gonna use to convince Rubes to donate to Judson Moon's campaign. And he says lemonade stands remind grown ups of the old good old days. They get misty about it.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And June Sires, who is as we've established like 137 years old, is being kid splained by this jerk about what it's like to be a grown up little.

[Craig]

These little white kids and she's like an older black lady and she's like, I've been there. I've lived through all of it. I am forever old.

[Andrew]

I was there at the founding of the Republic. I rode the vote for George Washington.

[Craig]

So Pete Guerra shows up and does something that no newspaper journalist would do. And he says, I brought a few of the TV newsboys with me. What are you, Pete?

[Andrew]

It's bizarre because I don't understand how Pete Garra works for the Cap Times. But then also he like, they've got a TV arm too.

[Craig]

Doesn't make any sense.

[Andrew]

Yeah, and especially in a book where if we're talking to 2012, like this is, we're getting into like peak pivot to video and we're still, we're still bringing the TV newsboys out to cover Judson Moon who doesn't answer a single question seriously. And Pete Guerra's response to that is not to treat this as a joke, but to Write like a 4 paragraph long front page story about Judson Moon, the kid who's running for president unconstitutionally in the state of Wisconsin.

[Craig]

So Moon gives the like best one liner in the whole book. The one that is like not as, not as wise cracky as the others. It's actually his best campaign line. He says, well I. When Garrett asks him why he's running, he says, well, I figure grown ups have had the last 1,000 years to mess up the world. Now it's our turn. I like that as a line. When you pick it apart, what does he think was happening in the 8 and 900 CE years? Was it run by kids and then the adults took over and they've Been in charge.

[Andrew]

Cyclical. Yeah.

[Craig]

A thousand years. And now it's time.

[Andrew]

The whole. The whole children's Crusade, like, they must have been in charge.

[Craig]

And then you're right. Then it's just one liners. And then it's on the evening news that the Lemonade Party, which sounds like an Internet meme. The Lemonade Party that is currently three people. It is Moon, Sires and Lane.

[Andrew]

Three people registered in one state. Like, there's. There's no. There's never any discussion of ballot access in any of the other states.

[Craig]

It's the. It's the Minnesota, like, Farm Party. What is the Minnesota Farm Party? The dfl. It is their own little DFL that they're running, except it's only got three people in it. And his parents, like, freak out. They're like, is this real? What's happening? And then it is. You're right. It's in the news the next day. Watch out, Democrats and Republicans. Stand back, Tea Partiers. Here comes the Lemonade Party that the.

[Andrew]

Tea Partyers line was not in the original one.

[Craig]

Wonderful.

[Andrew]

So we are like, I think we're zeroing. Zeroing in on this, having been redone in like 2009.

[Craig]

Yep. Yes, you're right. Totally. And then the principal is all excited that he has a presidential candidate in his student body.

[Andrew]

Oh, the other. Sorry. The other evidence for it being 2009 is there is. When he's talking to June Sires earlier, she's like, there's never been a black vice president. There's never been a lady vice president. In. In the old version, it says that. In the new version, it only says there's never been a lady vice president. I think not. Not because there had. Not because there had been a black vice president yet.

[Craig]

But because black president. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yes. Okay. Okay.

[Craig]

There you go. So they. The principal is like, hey, Moon, you got to give a big speech. You got to talk to the school.

[Andrew]

This is so everybody treating this kid who again, fully unconstitutionally is running for president, taking him deadly serious.

[Craig]

Yes. And they do not practice the speech. Lane writes it, and Moon goes out there in it with it in his hands, but does not look at it once.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

He does seem to deliver it very well. I have an excerpt here. I'm sure you're aware of the problems our country faces today. Crime, climate change, unemployment, racism, substance abuse, too much homework. That got a laugh. Let me ask you this. I continued. Who is responsible for these problems? Is it Congress? Foreigners? Rich people, Poor people, Black people, White people, women, men? No. There is One group who is totally to blame for all the problems in our country today. And I'll tell you who that group is. I paused for a moment to find my place on the page. Grown ups. I shouted. And the. The place goes bananas. And you're right, he's basically incites a riot in the auditorium because Artie Krantz.

[Andrew]

Stands up and is like, you can't run for president. You don't know anything about any issues.

[Craig]

Well, he says, he says he's going to abolish homework. And Krantz is like, the president can't abolish homework.

[Andrew]

Well, and Krantz does want to do an annoying thing where he's like, well, how are you going to get it through Congress? But Judson Moon does basically sic the crowd on him and call him booger boy up in front of everybody.

[Craig]

Well, because everyone's yelling and he doesn't know what to say. And he looks over at Lane on the side of the stage and Lane's trying to tell him something, but he doesn't know. And this is just a 6, you know, HW reference where he goes, read my lips, booger boy. No more homework.

[Andrew]

This is something. You just gotta let Moon be Moon. You do. You gotta, you just gotta let him, you gotta let him follow his animal, his animal instincts.

[Craig]

There is, and this is where I, I did like the part of him complaining about grown ups causing this that felt like every millennial politician complaining about boomers not retiring like that did feel like it had juice. There is a reporter from the Associated Press there who is going to put it on, quote, every web space site on the net. As I said, this is, this is.

[Andrew]

My favorite joke in the book where Lane introduces him to the AP reporter and he says, pleased to meet you. I say, I said as I shook the guy's hand, my mom does her grocery shopping at your store. And Lane says, not the A and P. The differences in the Junsen moon.

[Craig]

Is a 12 year old from 10 different decades.

[Andrew]

Differences between the old and new version here is as you've. In the old version, it's all about newspapers, okay? And there's no mention of website. The word content does not appear in the old version, though it does appear in this version. So the current version says not every newspaper and website creates their own content. Davis said, they pay a guy like me to write something once and then they run it everywhere. That's called syndication. In the original book, when Ann Landers writes her advice column, she doesn't write a different article for every newspaper in America. Bloom explained. His name is apparently different for no reason. She writes it once and they run it in a thousand papers or so. That's called syndication.

[Craig]

Okay, okay. Judson Moon has cultivated an honest an honestly cultivated a I don't know anything. Identity. So I do appreciate nobody.

[Andrew]

Nobody at any point is interrogating.

[Craig]

Not at all.

[Andrew]

I guess like part of his appeal as a candidate.

[Craig]

Yep. Well, no, we'll get into his TV ad, but so. So this guy runs the AP story and the world changes forever after people are calling him at six in the morning, five in the morning to get him on the Today show. TMZ is calling June for stories. Can you tell me what it said in the 90s? Does it say anything?

[Andrew]

Let me look it up. Sorry.

[Craig]

That's fine.

[Andrew]

Entertainment Entertainment Tonight woke her up at 5 o'clock in the morning begging to interview her.

[Craig]

Okay. TMZ is funnier. And this. While they're navigating this, he starts getting letters from kids sending him his. Their hard earned lemonade stand money.

[Andrew]

Because the scam that Lane wanted to run when he. When he did the lemonade stand.

[Craig]

My first question is. So the book references Lane setting up a bank account and keeping records of the donations. It does not talk about him setting up a pack or setting up like a legally appropriate campaign fund where they are track where you have to say. Every donor has to say, like close all these donations. What. Like what your occupation is and like where do you work? Like none of that is. Is covered. Of course. I don't think that any of. I don't think this has passed as campaign finance muster, even though no one wants to enforce those laws anyway. And it's after that that the people start weighing in on the constitutional question.

[Andrew]

My God. When they're talking about the. Just real quick, while they're talking about the funding thing in the current version, Judson says, I've got about 200 in my savings account. I offered. I was saving that money up to buy a video game system and hope Lane would tell me we wouldn't need it in the original version. What?

[Craig]

What? What? Could. Could he have bought something for $200 in 2012? He could have bought like a PS, like an older PS2 slim or something.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, he's saving up for a video game system. Okay, so he doesn't. Maybe he doesn't have enough to buy the whole thing yet.

[Craig]

Fair enough.

[Andrew]

In the original book, I've got about $200. In my past book savings, I offered. I don't even know what that Is. Well, I was saving that. I was saving that money up to buy. What is he gonna buy, Craig? I just want you to guess, like a guitar, A CD ROM drive? No, in hopes Lane would tell me we wouldn't need it so he can.

[Craig]

Actually learn something on Encarta. That's funny. The New York Times opinion pages have been weighing in on the constitutional question. So many people are not into this kid running. And then one brave journalist. I'm trying to remember his name. It's Lewis something.

[Andrew]

He says, he says, let the kid run.

[Craig]

Let the kid run, he says. Basically arguing that all these kids, you know, they have to deal with all the stuff that a president does.

[Andrew]

Louis Bixby.

[Craig]

Louis Bixby. Why?

[Andrew]

He has a different name than the old version. For no reason, for any reason whatsoever.

[Craig]

He writes this article that, you know, you know, argues, why shouldn't this kid get to run for president?

[Andrew]

No, it is still Louis Bixby. Interesting.

[Craig]

It did make me think of how, like, arbitrary the 35 year old requirement is. Just as. As an age. It. There's no, like. Yeah, it is kind of odd. I mean, I think through most of.

[Andrew]

Like, American political history, I think you would be like, the emphasis on being an outsider with zero experience in. In the field is something that is like a relatively recent obsession. And before that, I think it, you know, it was not. It was. It was kind of expected and it was an asset to have. You know, I was in the House first. Maybe I was a governor, maybe I was a senator. But like, by the time you had done all that stuff, you would probably be 35.

[Craig]

Anyway, I did do a scan of like, age of Candace candidacy requirements. In other countries, 25 and 30 are pretty common milestones. 18 is a very common milestone for serving in any elected office. And then like, some countries are like, no, but you should be a little bit older. Like, France is like, you can be 18 and be the president of France. Like, have fun.

[Andrew]

Well, and we see how they're doing.

[Craig]

Yeah. This does date back to. There's something called the Lex Villia Analis from ancient Rome, where they did pass a law saying that you had to be 36 for the Adel ship, 39 for the Praetorship, and 42 for the Consulship, which also kind of came with a requirement of mil of like a base level of military service of like 10 or 16 years. So that kind of innately ages you up into those roles. And that's probably where we get some of those, at least in the western world, like where some of those kind of come from the top. How young do you think the youngest serving state leader is right now, Andrew? Right now, according to Wikipedia, anyway.

[Andrew]

Oh, like, like 20, 24, 25.

[Craig]

According to Wikipedia, 36. The head of Burkina Faso is 36 of all time, Andrew. At least since 1875. According to Wikipedia. How young was the youngest head of state? Nine, zero days.

[Andrew]

Zero days.

[Craig]

Alfonso the 13th assumed office in 1886. His dad had died before he was born and so as soon as he was born, he became the nominal head of state.

[Andrew]

Okay, we should, we should do more of that.

[Craig]

More.

[Andrew]

More baby heads of state.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

That's more press. That's hilarious.

[Craig]

Love it. When a boss. When a boss baby.

[Andrew]

A boss baby.

[Craig]

Yeah. Within three weeks of this article being published, Congress passes an amendment.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And like so if you're talking about 1996, like the last constitutional amendment that had happened, it was not all that. That long before this. I think that's true.

[Craig]

You're right.

[Andrew]

It might have been, it might have been that one that was technically passed in like the 18th century and not ratified until later. But like it, it was still a thing that I think most of the public would have perceived as a real possibility.

[Craig]

Any change of a member of Congress can take effect after the next House of Representative election. Ratified on 1992 the 27th amendment to the United States.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So we're not, we're not. Not as now like coming off of this like 32 year dry spell where you can't even con.

[Craig]

Con there it is not in the.

[Andrew]

Like the political lexicon to even talk about.

[Craig]

You're right.

[Andrew]

Changes to the Constitution. Like I think Biden talked about it as like a, A possible Supreme Court reform step in that very, very last gasp announcement that he did.

[Craig]

Right.

[Andrew]

Right before he dropped out.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Because he was trying to generate some attention that was about anything other than him being a 900 year old man. But it's. And it was, you know, it was, it was reported on, but it was instantly dismissed.

[Craig]

Like nobody sires go way back. Just wanted to. Yes.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Well, probably they actually do June and Joe.

[Craig]

But no, you're right, it is, it is.

[Andrew]

Ours was Joe Biden's babysitter also like she's. That's how long she's.

[Craig]

It is interesting to think about. You're right. That like this book, it was written at a time when like only four years prior there had been a. Even though it wasn't a very impactful like amendment to a layperson, it did happen. And Congress Did a thing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And like in the era had gone down. Like, I think that's kind of the start of. Well, I guess we can't change the Constitution.

[Craig]

You're right.

[Andrew]

Very much. Can we? Like things that are. Things were on the road to where they are now, but I think people still would have perceived it as being possible. And so, yeah, in the book, it's just like, yeah, Congress got together and they thought about it really hard and within like three weeks, they passed it and the states ratified it. And there was a constitutional amendment where all of these grownups voluntarily ceded power to a child because Judson Moon decided to run for president.

[Craig]

Yes, it is, but okay, it is bananas that they pass the 28th amendment in response to a single child like that. Now, that's a little disingenuous because first.

[Andrew]

I would say that this is a government that is extremely responsive to the needs of the. Of the populace. And I don't understand why people are so upset with.

[Craig]

You're right. That's a good point. Two things on this note. First, after the editorial is published, there is a, you know, there's pushback. And then the kids decide to boycott. Andrew. They decide to boycott. Not like their chores.

[Andrew]

The general strike.

[Craig]

It is.

[Andrew]

Come on.

[Craig]

It is the most Jerry Seinfeld nonsense I've ever read. I have an excerpt for you. The children of America.

[Andrew]

Jerry Seinfeld.

[Craig]

The children of America decided it was up to them to get this amendment passed. At first, they protested peacefully at home and at school. Then things started to get ugly all across America. Kids refused to clean up their rooms unless their parents supported the lemonade stand amendment. They stopped putting their clothes in the hamper. They swallow their food without chewing it. Well, first, they refused to bundle up when they went outside.

[Andrew]

Okay, this is very.

[Craig]

Yes, they went swimming immediately after eating. Some of them even ate while they were swimming. The ultimate act of defiance. Newspapers reported that vegetable sales were way down as supermarkets. Kids were simply refusing to eat them. What are we doing, Dan Gutman?

[Andrew]

These are the issues that kids care about. I don't understand what you're all.

[Craig]

All the parents in Congress got sick of this crap and 42 states passed the amendment. Which eight states do you think didn't do it?

[Andrew]

Oh, boy, I don't know.

[Craig]

We don't need to decide. Listeners at home, think about which states didn't refuse to ratify. The 28th Amendment elected, probably not Florida.

[Andrew]

Because all the old teenagers people down there, they were probably, well, we can't let this whipper.

[Craig]

So then maybe, maybe like other Sunbelt states, Arizona, perhaps New Mexico, Solid South.

[Andrew]

Hates the. Hates the kid amendment.

[Craig]

Oh, you're right. That could be a couple Southern states. Yeah, Think about it. Think about it. Then we get. Then we move into the race proper. And this is where we meet President George White. We meet Herbert Dunn of West Virginia. We get that February poll. Nate Silver is on the case. 53% for President White, 43% Senator Dunn. Judson Moon, a whopping 1%. But then he does TV ads, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Where he does TV.

[Craig]

He says that he doesn't know any.

[Andrew]

That he earned. He said. He says he doesn't know anything, which includes. I don't know how to mess up the environment.

[Craig]

I don't know how to start a war.

[Andrew]

I don't know how to do the bad stuff either. So vote for me.

[Craig]

I know Judson Moon and he moves up like 9.9points.

[Andrew]

Which is honestly a scathing indictment of the American political system. Is that. That actually would probably pull it about nine.

[Craig]

Can you tell me what the original version does in the scene where he, quote, unquote goes on the Internet? The two of us went on the Internet one night. I changed my usual. Usual handle from J. Moon to J. Sun so people wouldn who I was. We clicked over to some comment sections to see what people were chatting about.

[Andrew]

When school let out in June, Lane and I were able to devote ourselves to the campaign full time. That's when we discovered a secret weapon we didn't even know we had. This is in a chapter called the Virtual Candidate.

[Craig]

Okay. It's still called that. Yeah.

[Andrew]

We logged on to America Online one night. I changed my username from J. Moon to Jason so people wouldn't know who I was. We clicked over to People Connection to see what people were chatting about. So all the chats are basically the same.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

So it's a bunch of kids going nuts for. For Judson Moon. We jumped off AOL and surfed around Prodigy, CompuServe and the other online services. Each of these networks had millions of subscribers, and it was the same thing wherever we looked. Those same kids who were holding yard sales and selling lemonade were burning up the nation's telephone lines trying to whip up support for the Moon and June team by modem. Some kids established a worldwide website where people could download photos of me and Mrs. Sires, read our life stories, hear us speak, and find out how to start a.

[Craig]

Petition.

[Andrew]

A petition to get us on the ballot in their state. Yeah, there's some OCR garbage that I had to.

[Craig]

Sure, sure.

[Andrew]

My favorite part about the.

[Craig]

In the new book, it's. We jump from Facebook to Twitter to Tumblr.

[Andrew]

My favorite thing about the new book is not that they have a Facebook to Twitter to Tumblr thing, but that they invent a heretofore unmentioned character who does not exist in the original book at all. An older brother of Lane who happens to be older than 13, so that he can make a user account on all of those websites.

[Craig]

I also like later when he says, and the best part was he doesn't exist.

[Andrew]

He's not mentioned anywhere else. They just invent him for the new book so he can sign them up illegally for websites that they're not. Not old enough to go because some.

[Craig]

Editor was like, listen, Dan, they can't On Facebook.

[Andrew]

Dan, not.

[Craig]

They don't have a school email address yet. Dan, they can't.

[Andrew]

They can't get on the facebook.com's the.

[Craig]

Best part was I didn't even have to do the work. My supporters were in cyberspace campaigning for me.

[Andrew]

Cyberspace.

[Craig]

Love to use the word cyberspace in 2012 and not be like a horror movie. The September polls. The president's at 33, the Democrats at 39, and Moon is at 24.

[Andrew]

I don't know if there's just like one outfit that's doing all these polls.

[Craig]

They don't say it's just like Gallup.

[Andrew]

Or something that's just doing.

[Craig]

Yeah, and maybe it's just the Real Clear Politics average. Who knows?

[Andrew]

They do not a bunch of, like, there's not a chapter where Lane is like, oh, the Republican pollsters are flooding the zone to make us look weak.

[Craig]

I hate Lane. They do debate. Here's why I hate Lane. They do debate prep. They do debate prep where there's a little graph of, like, what the popular opinions are. There. There's a. There's a League of Women Voters debate that he's going to participate in. And Lane is like, here are all the issues that the. And here are Americans responses based on the polling. You should always take the popular opinion. That's all you need.

[Andrew]

Popular is a man. So little Matt Iglesias, the little image.

[Craig]

Jesus, the little.

[Andrew]

These are all jokes for exactly three people. I hope that all three of them.

[Craig]

Are laughing a lot for Lane, June and Moon. The. The graph in my edition, Andrew, I'd be interested to know what is in the old version if you're able to pull it up. This is in chapter 20. Moon, you don't have any opinions. There's a Gallup Poll, it says Gallup. Worth noting. Affirmative action. Favor 50. 50 to 41. Stricter gun control. Favor, 40 to 50. Opposed. Nuclear power. Favor 7124. Death penalty. Favor 67 to 29. Abolish the death penalty. Lane, I hate you. I hate you so much. Does it. Are all those numbers the same in the original? Does this even exist here? Because this is Lane being like, listen, you don't need to have any opinions, AKA I know, you are a useful idiot and you don't have any opinions. Just say what the American people want. And Moon is like, moon does say, this feels backwards to me. I think the president should form an opinion and inspire the public to agree with that opinion. And Lane goes, moon, you don't have any opinions.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

Is this basically the same in the. In the previous edition?

[Andrew]

Oh, no. Oh, the OCR version doesn't have. It's missing an image or something. It's not in it.

[Craig]

It just says it looks like.

[Andrew]

No, it just said. Yeah, it says it looked like this and then line break. And it went on like that for dozens of issues. Oh, no, I don't. I don't have it. I don't have the original.

[Craig]

Oh, no. Okay.

[Andrew]

Sorry.

[Craig]

That's okay. I mean, something did. Something was going to get lost in the. In the transfer. I would be interested to know if any of the numbers are different or not.

[Andrew]

Because, like, now, does the old. Does the new version have a line that says. Lane always seemed to have a plan. He flipped on his Macintosh and clicked open a file titled Debate Strategy. Is that how that goes?

[Craig]

He flipped on his laptop and clicked open a file titled Debate Strategy. Weird. Tell me, Andrew, how you felt about the debate.

[Andrew]

Not like my deal with Judson Moon. And maybe this is okay. This all gets very complicated and it's all about. It's all wrapped up in feelings about American politics. But Judson Moon decides at some point, like I am. I started this as a goof and it's not funny to me anymore. And I'm over it and I'm going to try to tank my candidacy. And like, on the debate stage is the moment he decides he's going to do that, right?

[Craig]

Correct.

[Andrew]

Pretty much.

[Craig]

He's kind of blanking and feeling overwhelmed by the. The information that Lane gave him and kind of the callousness. Callousness with which he did it.

[Andrew]

Because. Because the. What is happening during the whole. Moon, you don't have any opinions. Thing is Judson Moon is trying to say Judson Moon basically agrees with whoever the last person he spoke to was.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And when he, when he is arguing in favor of nuance, the same thing that he had his supporters kill Arty Krantz for expressing. He's, he's saying, you know, what if I, what if I see good points on both sides of an issue? And Lane is just like, no, you can't do that. You have to have the popular one.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yep, yep. And so Judson decides he's going to tank his candidacy and he starts doing this up on the debate stage just like being a kid, just like goofing off, giving no serious answers to any question and making, making the other adults on the, on the stage very nervous and like off kilt, off kilter. And Judson comes off the stage. Lane is devastated. Little, little, little Karl Rove is devastated that Judson Moon did this and ruined his ascendant candidacy. Papers the next morning are like, man, that Judson Moon, he thumbed his nose at the system. He ran circles around these old guys. He did all the stuff that reminds everybody why they love him so much. And it's really, that is really sad to me because that is sometimes the way that, that, that does seem like the kind of stuff that people respond to more than anything is like not a, not even a pandering discussion of actual issues, but just like a gut like, man, this all sucks. Let's get, let's get rid of it. Let's tear it down.

[Craig]

It's the bleakest satire in the book.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And because it is truly, it's the producers. It's like I tried to do it poorly and I tried to be bad on purpose and I was so bad that it wrapped around and made you like feel away you wanted to feel. And you're right, it is the, it is the coverage of a presidential debate that is like, I really liked how the vibe that he gave off.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Rather than anyone talking about the things that a person said they would do.

[Andrew]

Well. Yeah, this is, this is getting well past like the oh, would you have a beer with him? Era. Like, yeah, yeah. There's a, it's not that it wasn't focused on that kind of like back slapping, retail politicking sort of stuff before, but it's a, I don't know, it's an era that's becoming more obsessed with that like at all levels of government and politics and not just at the presidential level.

[Craig]

And this book is not really tapping into the post 9, 11, 24 hour news cycle stuff.

[Andrew]

Even though the only reason Judson Moon's candidacy is, is like works at all is because there's a monoculture and a mass media. Correct. As soon as he talks to any guy working at any newspaper, the entire country is like, oh, Johnson moves.

[Craig]

We gotta know more about this. He talked to a failing reporter in Madison and all of a sudden he's a national sensation.

[Andrew]

That's the thing that doesn't. That, that is the worst. Well, I mean, aside from just like Tumblr and Facebook and YouTube all exist, but nobody has any phone.

[Craig]

Yep. Huh. Yep.

[Andrew]

Aside from that whole thing, which all of these scholastic 90s updates they feel have kind of dealt with, everyone still.

[Craig]

Bikes to the soda shop, but they all know what Facebook is. It's very bizarre.

[Andrew]

Like the, the, the idea that there is a media and that there would be a moment like a, like a senator you're no Jack Kennedy moment, and just everybody would know about it and would be widely perceived to have changed the, the trajectory of a race or to be like a classic political burn that everybody knows about and remembers and cites over and over again for the rest of eternity. Like, that is the environment that this book still exists in. And by 2012, that's not how anything worked anymore. And in 2024, it's even more not how anything works anymore.

[Craig]

Yep, yep, yep, yep. He does have a, like an October Surprise moment.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

Where someone unearths a story about him bullying Arthur Krantz. Pete Guerra runs with him.

[Andrew]

Pete Guerra. Pete Guerra stabs him in the back. Even though Pete Guerra also tried to tell Judson explicitly that he would stab him in the back given the opportunity.

[Craig]

And of course, the irony was that Krantz's paper that Moon threw in the sewer was about the Constitution. Of course you hate to see it. And then Lane just rewrites the Checkers speech and he goes on tv, delivers a version of the Checkers Nixon speech, and it's all fine. It's all fine.

[Andrew]

It's all fine. And you know, nevermind that even when did Biden run the first time? Like in the 80s was like, yes, yes, 84, 88. I think maybe part of the reason he was driven from that race is because he was accused of plagiarising lines from somebody else's speech. And instead of fully tanking Judson Moon's candidacy, this thing where Lane steals the checker speech for him and apparently nobody noticed.

[Craig]

You're right. 84. 84 was his.

[Andrew]

Everybody. Everybody eats this up.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

No, they, he's, he's bouncing back in the polls.

[Craig]

Well, because people can Google their local.

[Andrew]

It's Back to a, Back to a coin flip in the 538 averages.

[Craig]

People can Google what is my local newspaper and like seduce a reporter who will then stab them in the back, but they can't google the words that a kid said on television to know that Nixon said it first. It's impossible.

[Andrew]

Well, it's even like this again. This is a political monoculture. Big moments. Everybody remembers when Judson Moon apologized, but the Checker speech was a significant moment in that particular campaign, at least for the Nixon mythology. And Justin Moon just does it verbatim and nobody, nobody notices. Nobody at all.

[Craig]

You're right.

[Andrew]

That's not in all of mass media.

[Craig]

It, I mean, if, if 12 year olds had had suffrage, they, they would not remember. That's true.

[Andrew]

They don't have suffrage, but they can run for office.

[Craig]

Weird, huh? Weird. So that, I mean, that's, you know.

[Andrew]

This is the art of, the art of the realistic. Like, you know, you just. We're just doing incremental. Like we get a kid president in the White House and he'll extend the franchise.

[Craig]

Yes, definitely. Of course. By executive. Tell me about election night in this book.

[Andrew]

They all go and they sit in a room and they wait for the states to come in.

[Craig]

And this is the first time in a while. There's some early chatter in the book about the Electoral College, but we've basically not talked about it since Judson Moon.

[Andrew]

Wakes up like the day of the election and Lane is like, okay, let me explain the electoral college to you. And the funny thing about the way it works in the, in the book is like one candidate will win a stadium and especially Judson's dad. But like, everybody in the room will just react to it as a number and not as though any states vote in any kind of like correlated sort of way based on like demographics or political leanings. There is a. I did want to. This is another big moment for old book versus new book.

[Craig]

Oh, great. Yes.

[Andrew]

Where they are watching the news and waiting for results to come in. And so the, you know, the anchors are just kind of vamping like they do in the, in the current version of the book, a reporter is saying, I've seen a lot of big stories in my career reporting the news. One of the anchormen babbled the Kennedy assassination, the Vietnam War, Watergate, man landing on the moon, the tragedy of September 11, 2001. But never in all those years did it ever cross my mind that a child would not only run for president, but ever have a chance of winning the presidency. This is A turning point in the history of the Earth. In the original book, this section starts. This being the year 2000, the experts all had a lot of overblown stuff to say about the last millennium and the new millennium. In the year 1000, the printing press had yet to be invented and America had yet to be discovered. One expert commented.

[Craig]

That explains his the grown ups had the last thousand years thing.

[Andrew]

That's all the millennium stuff. Yeah. Imagine what life will be like in the year 3000. This is the turning point in the history of the earth.

[Craig]

Did Andy Richter write this book?

[Andrew]

I don't know. But yeah, that's what the anchor is talking about. It's not about how he's been reporting the news in a way where he's been like, he did the Kennedy assassination and also 9, 11, Jesus. But he's just talking about, he's just pattering about the new millennium and things that, that may happen in the year 1000. Yeah.

[Craig]

And so, okay, walk me through his.

[Andrew]

America had yet to be discovered by who in the year 1000. Nameless news anchor. Come on, think about it.

[Craig]

Walk me through his electoral college victory, Andrew.

[Andrew]

States start coming in.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And it looks like the, the guy from West Virginia is only going to win West Virginia.

[Craig]

And yeah, he's. Yeah.

[Andrew]

If you can't win the state you're from, you must be a real loser.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Judson Moon says. And that actually is pretty funny.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And they get to the point in the electoral math where the incumbent President White and Judson Moon are both the only ones in it and it's like, what is it, like two? It's a weird, it's a weird number that kind of erases a lot of states.

[Craig]

A very weird map that I don't really understand. I was really expecting this book to throw it to the House. I was really expecting, having never read.

[Andrew]

A book, we're gonna get into the constitutional nitty gritty. And the kid who ran for prison.

[Craig]

Well, honestly, like given the fact that it was doing like we passed the 28th amendment in three weeks, I was really expecting some sort of like. And then in the great, you know, arena of Congress, I made my case and they decided to make me president or something. But no, it's very different and weird.

[Andrew]

So yeah, okay, so the West Virginia guy has West Virginia's five electoral votes because that's the amount that I had both in 1996 and in 2012.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And we're left to assume that he's won no other states.

[Craig]

Yes, I believe so. I believe that Is true.

[Andrew]

And so famously, there are 538 electoral electoral votes available for president. So we've got five there. We've got to do the math for me, we've got 164 for the incumbent president and we've got 217 for Judson Moon. So how many? How many?

[Craig]

4 plus 2. 17 plus 5 plus 5 is 386. That's a lot of votes.

[Andrew]

Missing a lot of Alexa.

[Craig]

It's possible. Okay, say those numbers. Say Those earlier numbers again.

[Andrew]

164 by 11:30pm this is. I'm just, I'm reading the original book, but I think it's the same at both. By 11:30pm the results are tabulated from every state except California. All four TV networks said the vote was still too close to call. There I was stuck at 217 electoral votes and the President had 164.

[Craig]

So I guess it's the open question of does Moon get a narrow electoral college victory or does it go to the House? Because. Because the, the incumbent can no longer. I mean, they've wiped a bunch of votes.

[Andrew]

Well, what I am, what I am getting at is the votes that they've wiped off the table. So they said Senator Dunn won West Virginia's five electoral votes, but he's from West Virginia. If you can't win your own state, you must be really pathetic.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Outside of West Virginia, he wasn't doing very well. It was going to be white against Moon for all the marbles. I guess it doesn't, it doesn't explicitly say he didn't win any other states.

[Craig]

So maybe, maybe he did.

[Andrew]

That is the only. Yeah, that is the only way the math makes sense. If all the other states are tabulated and moon is at 217 and the president is at 164.

[Craig]

164 +217. 164 +217 +5 is 386.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Which leaves 152 votes on the table.

[Andrew]

Yes, but the only, but the only state we're talking about is the state of California.

[Craig]

California with its 50, 55 electoral votes. In the book.

[Andrew]

Yes, in the book.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And in, in the, in the original. And I did not even do like the electoral mat. Like, I didn't look at all the combinations of States. In 1996.

[Craig]

You didn't make that weird little winding chart.

[Andrew]

2, 7, 3, 8. No, I didn't make the little weird blue and red snake chart thing, the tipping point chart, because they, like the, they updated the amount of electoral votes that each state was worth in this book. But they. I don't know that. Like he never updated that 217 versus 164 thing. So I don't know what the map looks like for Judson Moon. Exactly. Okay. Man, if I had prepared, I should have. I should have gone through 270 to win. And done and done.

[Craig]

Like a mockup about the Jeb Wins map. But with Judson Moon, Judd wins.

[Andrew]

So it comes down. Comes down to California.

[Craig]

And when's the last time it came down to California?

[Andrew]

And so if I. I do not. I do not know. But this is a scrambled map because of the Lemonade Party. And the way that this kid has. Has updated it has upended the Constitution. So if the President wins California, it will get thrown to the House.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And if Judson Moon wins California, he'll. He'll win with 272.

[Craig]

I would have to imagine the Republican House gives the President the win though. So he probably. Which is not the book, does not talk about this. But I would imagine that if the Republicans are all.

[Andrew]

We don't.

[Craig]

Because he's not running third party like Congress candidates.

[Andrew]

We don't know. We don't know that. The same way that we don't know what electoral votes. Senator Dunn, do you think we don't know that there's an entire Lemonade Party slate of.

[Craig]

Yeah. Teens running in random like formerly uncontested races across the country.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Craig]

Oh, man, gerrymandered districts would be so like, vulnerable to this kind of thing. Mm.

[Andrew]

Mm. Probably a bunch of weird at large House seats.

[Craig]

Oh my God.

[Andrew]

Would. Would go to Lemonade Party kids.

[Craig]

How do you think Nebraska goes in this election? Does it split?

[Andrew]

I don't know. Is there like a little yellow dot for the Lemonade Party? It's like Omaha does. Goes for the judge, goes for Judson Moon, but.

[Craig]

So he wins California.

[Andrew]

He wins California. He's got 272 electoral votes. He's won it.

[Craig]

He does not have a mandate to govern, in my opinion.

[Andrew]

He doesn't. But we also don't know what Congress. As we've said, we don't know what Congress looks like.

[Craig]

You're right.

[Andrew]

And especially Map. There's no talk about Seneca like Lane is not talking about. Well, we need the Senate to get our Supreme Court nominees.

[Craig]

Well. And there's no talk of the President's camp, you know, appealing the candidacy to the Supreme Court or any like the amendment is passed. But you would imagine in 2024, unfortunately, that we might then be beset with a series of challenges to candidacy law and things like that that, you know. But Moon does not feel good about this. Moon.

[Andrew]

No, he doesn't. He didn't. He didn't really want to win.

[Craig]

No. Throughout the book, he honestly, multiple times throughout the book, he's like, this is a joke. I'm pranking people.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it isn't until the debate that he actually is like, I hate this.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And. And Moon, I think, like, smartly, is like, man, this actually says way more about the. The state of the country and the political system than it does about me. So his act as President elect is to get up on stage and to say, what. What are you doing, America? I am a kid. I have not done anything. I don't know anything. You got to fix your stuff. I resigned as President Elect of the United States.

[Craig]

A bold thing that I'm not sure you can do, but he does it, which effectively makes June Sires the President elect.

[Andrew]

They don't really.

[Craig]

They don't really explore that. Yeah. And it. And at his campaign party, he had seen his friend Abby near a piano, but they didn't speak. And then the book ends with him and Abby saying, do you want to, like, go home and, like, get an ice cream or something? Like something very kid.

[Andrew]

They go home to do a kid thing.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And Jetson Moon leaves it all behind.

[Craig]

And that's the end of the book.

[Andrew]

That's the end of the book.

[Craig]

Now.

[Andrew]

Now, I have not read it, but in 1999, Dan Gutman did do a book called the Kid who Became President with Judson Moon. And he is the president. So I don't know why. I don't know if that's like, an alternate universe.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

Assume the presidency or if somebody just told him, listen, you can't resign as President elect. That's not a thing.

[Craig]

I did read the sequel snippet in the back of my edition of the book. It takes place on Inauguration Day. I was very confused.

[Andrew]

Oh, right. Yes, yes, yes. Because it does. It is just him being inaugurated, and there's no mention at all of him, like, resigning his post like he did.

[Craig]

In the last I saw a reference to it, I think, in the article about the John Oliver bit that is like. Yeah. It's just a few months later, and he decided to be president. So we just ran with it. My fellow Americans, he says, my president, Teddy Roosevelt gave the country what he called a square deal. Franklin Delano Roosevelt gave the country a new deal. President Truman gave us a fair deal. Today, I say this to America. Let's make a deal. Here's a deal. I offer. I'll help you all if you help me. I'm not a Republican, so you Democrats have no reason to oppose me. I'm not a Democrat, so you Republicans have no reason to oppose me. This is just some Aaron Sorkin fanfic. If we all work together, we can guide our nation. Together. Together, we can clean up the environment. Together, we can educate children, take care of our senior citizens. Together, we can put an end to crime, to poverty, to unemployment, to substance abuse, to an end to peace in the world. There was a gasp. He misread his speech. I mean, we're gonna have peace in the world. Great joke. A thunderous ovation rolled across the mall. The 20th century is over. The 21st is well underway. We've got a lot of work to do. So, America, I ask you, are you ready to rumble? And they all say, yeah, let's get it on. I concluded.

[Andrew]

The thing is. And this is another.

[Craig]

Did this book get an update? I don't know that it did.

[Andrew]

I don't. I'm. I don't know that it did. The thing about this is, like, I think this is basically the platform for Dan Osborne, the guy who's running as an independent in Nebraska.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Where he's just like arc welding the word lies into. Into LCD TVs to demonstrate that his opponent lies about him.

[Craig]

I'm not a Democrat, though.

[Andrew]

And that a certain. A certain strain of. Of like lefty social media is really into this guy who's, like, objectively going to suck if he gets elected. Like, he'll be better than a Republican, but he'll suck a lot. But it is. Yeah, it's a lot of, man. I'm not. I'm not either of the parties. I'm just gonna do my own thing and it's gonna. It's gonna go great. Because I have not never paid attention to politics before in my entire life. Life.

[Craig]

What a weird book this is. I'm.

[Andrew]

It's a weird book. We talked about it for an hour and 40 minutes.

[Craig]

I'm trying to remember. We did a. There. There was a musical that was performed in my elementary school. I was not in it. I was.

[Andrew]

Franklin Franklin.

[Craig]

No, it's the year before Frank Franklin.

[Andrew]

Oh, man. I thought you were going to talk about Franklin Franklin.

[Craig]

No, I don't remember what it was called, but it was about a kid who ran for mayor and I. I do think it probably hit some similar notes. This would have been around the same time. Kind of mid-90s. Some kind of lampooning of, you know, a political system that would enable a child to seize power. I wish I could remember what it's called. I know that the mayor was Mayor Flagg with two GS, but I can't find anything else on it. The bubblegum mayor is what it's called because that's why we call that kid's bubblegum for so many years, because he was the bubble gum mayor.

[Andrew]

Shout out to Steve Seinfeld again.

[Craig]

Shout out to Steve. If you're listening, you're probably not listening. But no, the public. Oh, wow, that unearthed something. But no, it's very. This is very bubblegum mayor coded for all you bubblegum airheads out there. What? This book's weird though, Andrew. It is the debate section and one or two other bits do feel like they are poking at something that is like. Like I do agree with. And doesn't it make. It's. It's poking at something that already makes me sad and not the book making me sad, you know?

[Andrew]

Yeah. I think. I mean, the core of the issue is this is a book for children about a kid running for president that was not meant to be read by and scrutinized by adults. No, but the. All the stuff that. That they did to it to try and update it for. For like, modern kid dumb made it so, like, so bizarre. Because now it's not for anybody. Like, it's not for. It's not for 90s kids trying to relive their childhood. And it's also not for current kids who know what YouTube is like.

[Craig]

It's so weird. It does not. You're right, it does. It is not a book that is interested in a real kid experience. It's a like, leveraging kind of the no homework energy as a trope to play with a lot of, like, political humor that I guess Gutman was just, like, found funny, which is fine. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, I think, like, I remember reading it thinking there were. There were elements of kid experience that I did recognize in it.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Though. Just like, I don't know the, The. The stuff about. About Chelsea Daniels and like, sure get it. Getting the attention of a pretty girl in school and like, I don't know, all the, all the stuff where Abby is, like, always in. In Judson Moon's corner and always there for him to be a friend and making fun of a kid who everybody wanted to make fun of because he was a big nerd.

[Craig]

That's fair.

[Andrew]

No, it was like, not totally Unrecognizable.

[Craig]

I do think that the, like, the level of wisecracking does feel really 12. I think he did actually kind of nail the. Like the. Both Lane and Moon have parts of the book where they're like, what does that word mean? And then also they will like, trot out an idiom that's probably a few years older than them to like, make a wise crack that avoids a question. And like, that does feel very preteen teen, early teen coded of just like, you're just messing with the soup of all the media you consume and you don't really understand all of it, but you're taking nothing seriously.

[Andrew]

It's just. And this is, this is true of all the Scholastic books I think we've read that have had these kinds of updates. And then we can stop recording this. This podcast, which is gonna run like infinite just length. Even though we both read the Kid who Ran for President. It's just. It's a hard. When I remember reading like, where the Red Fern Grows and like the Fudge books and the Ramona books and that kind of. Of kind of fiction that comes from like the 60s, 70s, 80s, like, stuff that our parents or like, people a generation or two older than us would have been reading. Yeah. In school and not feeling. I'm sure there. There are references to dated technology in all of those and maybe I even would have like, clocked them at the time. Like, oh, nobody in here is talking about Nintendo all the time. Wuggy gives like it. But it's still. They still spoke to me on like a kid level. I think maybe they still do speak to a lot of kids on a kid level because all that, like, most of that stuff is still in print. But to take a. To like it, it is. So my point being, I think, like, yeah, being a kid in the like the 70s, 80s, 90s is all similar enough that all that fiction kind of resonates in a way. And then you try to take any. Like, you could take a Ramona book and be like, yeah, and then Ramona was on YouTube because Jesus was. Was like, mean to her or something. It just feels it's a hard era to try and update for because so much about like, society and especially kidd dumb and childhood and like, teenager dumb is so, so different than it was like, pre Internet that you can't just like, pre Internet, pre smartphone, pre social media. You can't just throw in a couple of like, offhand references to current websites and have that be like, oh, yeah, we updated this book for the 2000 and tens. Like, it just doesn't. It just doesn't work.

[Craig]

You're totally right. And that's why I think all of my responses throughout this episode have been way more focused on what Gutman is talking about. Because it doesn't feel like, especially in this weird Frankenstein version is not like, grounded in the kid experience of the 90s anymore. And that's not what's popping for me. It is like I can. I can hear the adults playing with adult things, just like for children, which is like that. That is. Can still be entertaining. It's just. It's a different style of kid literature than. Than what you were referencing earlier.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it's playing with our democracy. So, you know, have it that way.

[Andrew]

Our wonderful democracy, which I'm sure it's gonna be fine.

[Craig]

Last month was the month for booing because it was Spooktober. This month is for voting. So don't boo. Vote. And if you have thoughts on the kid who ran for president, send us an email.

[Andrew]

I can't believe you buried that like an hour and 45 minutes into a podcast. I'm so mad at you.

[Craig]

Overdue podmail.com is the email address. Give us us all your thoughts on whether or not you would have donated to Judson Moon's campaign. If you had any other campaign slogans, things like that, hit us up on social media, bluesky and Instagram @ Overdue Pod. If you have I voted photos to share, please tag us. We would love to share them out into the world to remind people about the whole voting thing that you should do. Because if you listen to us, you're probably cool. You should probably vote the cool way and then be mad about it later. Again, it's.

[Andrew]

And we won't tell you which way we think the cool way is, though. That's over. That's what we're gonna.

[Craig]

It's also a mystery to be mad about what you're voting for and then like, hold it accountable. Like, that's fine too. Please do that. Also, our theme song is composed by Nick Laranjes. Andrew. If folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is our Internet website. We have the books that we have read and the ones that we are going to read. The November schedule is. Is done. Are you ready to. To read it?

[Craig]

Yes. Though I don't have the author name, so I'm just going to say the titles.

[Andrew]

That's fine.

[Craig]

Oh, you want me to read it right now?

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah. Just do It.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah. So we just read the Kid who Ran for President, and then next week going to be talking about the Wind in the Willows, then no Longer Human and closing out the month with the Song of Achilles.

[Andrew]

Oh, Meline Miller. I know that one.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's the one. I know.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah. So we're. We're going to be doing that. We also have a Patreon page. Patreon.com overdue pod support us financially. You buy us books, you buy us equipment. You pay for childcare. You make the show possible from both a technical and, like, time standpoint. So if you're not sending your money into the Lemonade Party, maybe you can send some of it our way.

[Craig]

Rename our Patreon the Lemonade Party.

[Andrew]

The Lemonade Party. I can't. People are going to be like, is this a lemon party thing? Like, I don't understand.

[Craig]

I can't believe Gutman did it.

[Andrew]

He didn't know. He didn't know what the Lemon party was until 1996.

[Craig]

You're right. You're right.

[Andrew]

It's possible that he could have done a little bit of Googling for the update.

[Craig]

You're right.

[Andrew]

And have it be like the Band candy party or something.

[Craig]

Like, yeah, the. The. The cookies. The baked goods party.

[Andrew]

The. Yeah, yes. The baked goods party. The bake sale party.

[Craig]

The bake sale party. That's what it is.

[Andrew]

Anyway. Patreon.com overdue pod my brain is. Is mush. I can't do it anymore.

[Craig]

Been looking at polling averages for Judson Moon for too long. I can't talk to a human again. But thanks for making us read this book, Andrew. You had been. You literally have been mentioning it for years. And it. It was a fun way to process some anxiety and use parts of our brain slightly differently.

[Andrew]

Slightly differently.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I'm gonna go use my brain. Not at all, baby.

[Craig]

Sounds great.

[Andrew]

I would encourage you to all go vote and then also turn your brains off. And until we talk to you next week, try to be happy. That was a Headgum podcast.