Ep 687 - The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair

Summary

Overdue Podcast Episode 687: Exploring Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle

Release Date: January 27, 2025

Hosts: Andrew and Craig
Podcast: Overdue by Headgum
Episode Focus: The Jungle by Upton Sinclair

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Introduction

In Episode 687 of Overdue, hosted by Andrew and Craig from Headgum, the duo delves into Upton Sinclair’s seminal work, The Jungle. This episode offers an in-depth exploration of the novel’s themes, historical context, and enduring relevance. While the episode begins with updates on their Patreon project, the primary discussion centers around Sinclair’s impactful narrative and its implications on both early 20th-century America and today’s societal structures.

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Overview of The Jungle

The Jungle, first published in 1906, is a muckraking novel that exposes the harsh conditions and exploitative practices in the American meatpacking industry. Through the harrowing experiences of immigrant protagonist Jurgis Rudkus, Sinclair illustrates the broader social injustices of capitalism and industrialization.

Notable Quote:
Andrew (04:02): “I did read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair.”

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Upton Sinclair’s Background and Motivation

Andrew and Craig provide a comprehensive background on Upton Sinclair, highlighting his early life, literary endeavors, and political activism. Born in 1878 in Baltimore, Sinclair’s experiences and socialist leanings significantly influenced his writing. His father’s involvement in the temperance movement and a tumultuous childhood may have shaped his worldview and commitment to social reform.

Craig (08:01) notes, "He wrote four early novels in the 1900s that didn't really sell much...," illustrating Sinclair’s persistence despite initial setbacks. His undercover work in the Chicago stockyards directly inspired The Jungle, aiming to shed light on the grim realities faced by workers and consumers alike.

Notable Quote:
Craig (13:00): “Jack London called it the Uncle Tom's Cabin of wage slavery.”

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Impact of The Jungle on Legislation and Society

The hosts emphasize the profound impact The Jungle had on American society, particularly in spurring legislative action. The novel was pivotal in the enactment of the Pure Food and Drug Act and the Meat Inspection Act in 1906, led by President Theodore Roosevelt, who was influenced by Sinclair’s revelations.

Andrew (09:27) states, "He uses his money to open a place called Helicon Hall..." explaining Sinclair’s continued efforts towards social reform beyond his literary work. The book’s ability to catalyze significant policy changes underscores its role as a powerful tool for social advocacy.

Notable Quote:
Craig (13:32): “It led to the Pure Food and Drug Act in 1906 as well as the Meat Inspection Act.”

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Analysis of Themes and Narrative Style

Andrew and Craig dissect the dual nature of The Jungle as both a novel and a piece of propaganda. They discuss how Sinclair intertwines the personal struggles of Jurgis with detailed descriptions of industrial malpractices, effectively humanizing the systemic issues he critiques.

Andrew (24:00) observes, "The term agit prop involves propaganda and agitation..." highlighting the intentional blend of storytelling and political messaging. The narrative oscillates between Jurgis’s personal tragedies and broader industrial critiques, creating a visceral depiction of early 20th-century labor conditions.

Notable Quote:
Andrew (29:27): “You hear all about how fast all the workers have to work, how bad the managers all are...”

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Contemporary Relevance and Discussion on Socialism

The conversation transitions to the modern implications of Sinclair’s work, drawing parallels between the novel’s critique of capitalism and current socio-political debates. The hosts discuss the nomination of RFK Jr. as Health and Human Services Secretary, contemplating how Sinclair’s advocacy for socialism intersects with today’s political landscape.

Andrew (52:20) reflects, "He had one unfailing remedy for all the evils of this world, and he preached it to everyone..." likening Jurgis’s unwavering support for socialism to contemporary political rhetoric. The discussion touches on the persistence of capitalist exploitation and the cyclical nature of socio-economic reforms.

Notable Quote:
Andrew (55:40): “I think there's something there that you can grab onto...”

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Andrew and Craig acknowledge the emotional intensity and historical significance of The Jungle. They commend Sinclair for his relentless pursuit of social justice and the lasting effects of his work on American legislation and labor rights. The hosts encourage listeners to engage with the novel, stressing its continued relevance in understanding and addressing modern societal challenges.

Andrew (62:16) muses, "But let's also think about positive impacts...," balancing the episode’s critical analysis with a recognition of progress made since the novel’s publication. The episode concludes with musings on the enduring struggle for equity and the role of literature in societal transformation.

Notable Quote:
Andrew (65:25): “That's what the book is all about: Wage slavery... Class consciousness, Craig. It's all in this book from 120 years ago and it's driving me nuts.”

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Additional Resources

For listeners interested in exploring The Jungle further, Andrew recommends accessing the public domain version available on Project Gutenberg. This resource provides a free and easily accessible copy of Sinclair’s influential work.

Notable Quote:
Andrew (56:48): “There's a copy of this on Project Gutenberg... I think you should at least try to read it.”

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Upcoming Episodes and Patreon Updates

Andrew and Craig conclude the episode by sharing updates on their Patreon project, including new tiers offering exclusive content such as ad-free episodes, newsletters, and access to their Discord community. They also preview upcoming book discussions, ensuring listeners stay engaged with the podcast’s ongoing exploration of overdue reads.

Notable Quote:
Craig (63:55): “Next week talking about The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, In the Midst of Winter by Isabel, The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett...”

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Thank you for joining Andrew and Craig on this insightful journey through Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle. Stay tuned for more overdue reads and engaging discussions in future episodes.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a headgun podcast.

[Craig]

This episode of Overdue is brought to you by you, brought to you by us and you.

[Andrew]

We have some Patreon changes that we wanted to talk about. Again, I know some of you have probably heard about this stuff already, but it doesn't matter. We're gonna keep, we're gonna keep telling you about it. We made some changes to our Patreon project. Some brand new tiers including access to things like a newsletter ad, free version of the podcast feed, and other things that we think that we and you will have some good times with. Yeah, Craig, do you want to run them down and just run them down the thing real quick? Scroll down.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's patreon.com overdpod and as Andrew said, these are things we're excited to make for and with you over the coming years. If you join us at $1 a month, you gain access to the amazing overdue discord. We just wrapped up the 2024 OD Awards in there. We're talking about all sorts of new books that people are reading and the episodes. You can join us for that. If you join us at the $3 tier, we've got dusty bookshelves, the all new overdue newsletter, monthly newsletter where Andrew and I are writing about whatever, but usually stuff that came to mind while we were reading or researching the last month's books. Yep, we're going to be doing monthly now, Q and A slash hangout streams. So come join us for those. Ask us questions about recent episodes. Like that's a thing that we've struggled to do with listeners the entire length of the show and why not just do it now? Just come talk to us about what we've been reading, whatever or whatever. Ask us about food, I don't know. And as Andrew said, $7 tier, you get ad free episodes. You don't need to listen to us yammer about whatever and you can just move on with your life.

[Andrew]

I like this one. This you'd be skipping.

[Craig]

You don't have to hear this if.

[Andrew]

You subscribe to the ad free.

[Craig]

And then we of course have our long read project at $10 a month that is currently sit me baby one more time, a curated list of the Babysitters Club series. And we'll likely be announcing our next one soon after that. And then at the 25 month tier, there is an opportunity to plug project of your own on a few episodes of the show. So yeah, we'd love to shout out something that you're doing. Those are all the things.

[Andrew]

Yes, those are all the things probably the last time we'll run down them all like that before an episode for a while. So don't worry everybody, you'll get a break. But your Patreon donations do support the show. They keep, they keep us in books and equipment. They help pay for school and childcare. They literally help give us the time and the stuff that we need to make the show. So if you already do [e-mail] overduepod thank you so much. If you're not supporting yet, we'd love to have you. And that's it. I think that's it.

[Craig]

Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

Welcome to the jungle. We've got fun and games We've got everything you want Honey, we know the names we are the people that can find whatever you may need if you got the money, honey we got your disease and it's bad meat. Welcome to the jungle.

[Andrew]

Welcome to the jungle. In this episode of our weekly book podcast where each week one of us reads a book that we've never read before, tells the other person about it, tells you about it. I did read the Jungle by Upton Sinclair.

[Craig]

Ah, yeah.

[Andrew]

So Craig. I did not. Some people, I think, read the Jungle in high school. I did not.

[Craig]

But I did not.

[Andrew]

I did. I did know of it. So what was your understanding of what the book of the jungle was when, like up to and including the time that we actually added it? Added it to the schedule?

[Craig]

I. So in my 10th grade AP European history class, my teacher was very prescriptive about teaching to the AP test using note cards, index cards, and you know, all the various concepts that you need to know. And one of them was Upton Sinclair's the Jungle. And I knew it as a book about how bad our food was at the turn of the 20th century.

[Andrew]

Yep.

[Craig]

And how it caused, you know, reform and it's part of a movement of necessary social reform coming out of industrialization. I don't know that until very recently I knew whether or not it was a novel. I might have thought it was non fiction and I certainly thought it was just confined to the meat thing. I have a. I have a comment from our. Our overdue discord about it. Megan said anyone else original? It was just in our questions thread asked anyone else originally hear that this book was about how the meat industry was bad without talking much about the larger social issues or was that just a product of my education? Was Definitely a project of my education.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's exactly how I learned about it is it was a book by, like a muckraker journalist that led to important food safety reforms. And it's part of this larger. It's. It's not, you know, it's like three decades before the New Deal is happening, but it's part of, like, these big societal governmental reforms that are happening in the first half of the 20th century that are currently looking a lot more tenuous than we might have assumed them to be just a few short years ago.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

So we were thinking specifically about the nomination of RFK Jr. To be the Health and Human Services Secretary. He would be in charge of the FDA in that role and would potentially have some latitude. I'm not exactly sure how much because it's never like, you never know exactly what they can do until they try to do it sometime. But big implications for food safety, food inspection, vaccines, all kinds of other things.

[Craig]

Yeah. Seem to seem like a relevant. Let's read the Jungle and think about what we. What people, like, died to earn, you know?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah. Like what, what kind of things are we taking for granted? Like what, what set off these social movements? And can we, you know, can we recapture any of that magic here in 2020?

[Craig]

Listen to our podcast and pass Nuz.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but I was, I was surprised to. Yeah, all that meat stuff is in there. And it's, it's very vis. Visceral.

[Craig]

And that's what they say when I order something at Taco Bell. All that meat stuff is in there.

[Andrew]

All that meat stuff is in there. Don't worry about it. And it is, I think, the most visceral stuff in the, in the book and the most, like, memorable. And it is all in that, like, the first part of the book really focuses in. On that in a way where I'm, I'm, you know, if you don't finish this one, you probably do read that part before you get to the end part about it being a pamphlet for socialism, because that is what the book is. What the point was when Sinclair did it is he was trying to draw attention not specifically to how gross the meat was, but how bad the working conditions were for the people who made the meat, largely immigrants. Yes. The downtrodden and, you know, the people who have been taken advantage of by the system. And that's not, that's not. We didn't get a lot of labor reforms out of this one, I don't think. Like, it's remembered mostly for the food safety laws that Came to pass out of it. Craig, I think you have some stuff on that.

[Craig]

Whole bunch of stuff on that. Specifics.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yep. So we can start with Sinclair, how he was born in 1878 in Baltimore, passed away in 1968 in New Jersey, moved a little further north. Why not? His father, he also lived in California for a long time. His father, he was big in the temperance movement as well. Not relevant to most of our discussion today, but I haven't known. Here is. His father was an alcoholic liquor salesman. Seems a bit of a problem. And his father's kind of rough career led them to move around a lot when he was a little kid. He wound up graduating college of the City of New York, 1897. Worked at Columbia University, didn't get a degree. Was writing jokes for newspapers and cartoonists and articles in pulp magazines and things like that around the turn of the century. He publishes four early novels in the 1900s that don't really sell any, like a lot. King Midas, Prince Hagen, Journal of Arthur, Sterling, Manassas. You know, books. You write books. In 1905, the Socialist Weekly Appeal to Reason sent him undercover to the Chicago stockyards where he would write the Jungle. So it was first published serially in the magazine. And then the book form came out in 1906. I think he was there for seven weeks. That kind of, to me, also explains why the front part of the book may have, you know, had the most lurid details in it.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

And then also probably captured some imaginations quickly. It was a best seller. It was, according to the Bookman, which predates Publishers Weekly in terms of like bestseller lists. It was like the sixth best selling novel or book. In 1906, he. I'm gonna go through Sinclair because the way my notes are. And then we'll go back to the. The book a bit. He uses his money to open a place called Helicon Hall. Andrew, Lest we, lest we ever stand, People from society, from history, too much. I just want you to know that he wrote some articles outlining his plans for a self sufficient farm community in New Jersey. Hosted a bunch of people to come. And it was explicitly for white people of good moral character. And they also declined to let some Jewish folk in. And it only lasted about a year. It was run out of an old school building. There was an outbreak of chickenpox and then it burned down and the colony disbanded. So he. He moved on. He moved off to California with his second wife in 1916, and he starts writing more Muckraken novels. King Cole, the Brass check oil. Which became There Will Be Blood. The film Boston, which is about a murder case with two Italian immigrants who were, you know, defendants. And they probably weren't, you know, I don't know if they did it or not, but, you know, it was turned into some sensational case. The Wet Parade about alcoholism and the Fliver King about Henry Ford. I do need you to know, Andrew, he wrote a book called Mental Radio about his wife's telepathic abilities.

[Andrew]

Listen, we're not saying this guy isn't kind of a weirdo.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm, I'm here to say he, this book is important. And also this guy has some stuff on his resume. He did run for office a number of times as a socialist. Everything from U.S. representative to U.S. senate to Governor of California. He ran for governor of California, I think more than once. And in 1934 he ran as a Democrat on the end poverty in California platform. That's right, the epic platform.

[Andrew]

Nice.

[Craig]

And it was focused on state administered economic relief and reforms. He did not win, but he did create a lot of stuff that would go on to be incorporated into the New Deal platform. He lost Andrew because they created fake news against him. The Hollywood studios did not like him and they created false propaganda films about him. That's one of the reasons he lost. I don't know. That's the only reason.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but that's just. This is one of the many ways where you're like reading stuff in this book about like the aims of socialism and then the like differing opinions of people within the movement and then also what people in America specifically say because they hate socialism so much and why they're saying it. And you're just like, we've been having. I can't believe we invented all these arguments. This, this far before everybody on Twitter thought that they were having new ideas.

[Craig]

About very much a Simpsons did it scenario. He wrote the Lanny Buddha novel series about an anti fascist hero in World War II. He won the Pulitzer for the third entry in that series, Dragon's Teeth. He did write some novels with his wife, the second wife, the Sylvia novels. He co wrote those. And then he, after he was with her for like 50 years and then remarried late in his life after she passed away. So this book, as I said, Jack London called it the Uncle Tom's Cabin of wage slavery.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

Referring of course to Uncle Tom's Cabin.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

It led to the Pure Food and Drug act in 1906 as well as the Meat Inspection Act. The first was, you know, slaughterhouse conditions and the second act was about like inspection of livestock. All of this comes about because he, you know, the book is very popular. Teddy Roosevelt had, the president at the time had read a copy of it pre release. He got a pre release copy of the book.

[Andrew]

He got the ark. Yes, he got the Ark of the jungle.

[Craig]

And the thing is, and this might explain kind of its place in history. I was reading an article on the National Archives website as well as an article on history.com which is a good article. It doesn't feature any like ancient aliens nonsense. If it's like the History Channel, I don't know. But starting in like the 1880s, they started trying to pass all these bills to regulate the food and drug industry. And wouldn't you know, big food and drug businesses just paid off Congress. So that, that didn't happen. Yeah. One of the big cases is this thing in the 1890s during the Spanish American War when guys serving in Cuba were eating meat packed with boric acid to cover up the fact that it was rotting.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Including Teddy Roosevelt. So even though he got like hundreds of thousand dollars from the meatpacking industry, he's like, I don't want people to eat the embalmed beef. I don't want it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like people. I just. There's so many. It's. I'm stuck on this because I just feel like people are going to have diarrhea all the time. Yeah. Very bad. We get rid of all this food safety stuff. Very bad. I can't fathom it. It's hard to fathom.

[Craig]

So Sinclair is like writing him letters all the time and gets him to send to inspectors to Chicago. And even though the meatpacking houses knew they were coming, it was still so terrible.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I think I read that they like tried to clean it, but it was just not, it was not adequate.

[Craig]

This is the Neal Reynolds report. And I did try to find. I read somewhere that he leaked part of the report to the New York Times because Roosevelt was not giving it to Congress right away. But I couldn't find something confirming that. I just kept finding New York Times articles with headlines like the meat Report or Sinclair gives proof of Meat Trust Frauds or President's Threat with Meat Report. And I saw some articles that was like, not only did Roosevelt want this to happen, but now after the publication of this book, like Germany and France are banning American meat.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Right. It becomes a big deal for exporting because the deal, the meatpacking industry in Chicago is like, it's huge. It's like a worldwide Huge thing. It's not just within the country. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yep. And so, you know, his response to the reception of the book is that this quote, I aimed at the public's heart, and by accident, I hit it in the stomach. I think you can see all of his actions with Roosevelt as, like, well, it's not bad if I also advance the cause of food safety, which probably also protects workers because, like, some of it is, like, people are like, coughing tuberculosis onto meat.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Right.

[Craig]

All bad stuff. So even though he is maybe not getting the labor reforms that he wants, it's clear that he can have an impact with. With the work. And he's a. You know, he also winds up running for office a bunch later, so he's got the politics bone in him.

[Andrew]

Right. And this is, you know, it is a. I think it's instructive in, like, if you can get something done, if the. If the options are getting something done and getting nothing done, it's usually better to try get something done, even if it's not, like, because you can. Then you can build on that and try to do more with it.

[Craig]

And I just. I shared all that stuff about, you know, Roosevelt just to remind us that, like, I think the pump was primed for action on food safety.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And there are larger forces outside the food industry to suppress labor reform. You know, that's. That's everybody's issue. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's why we wind up with these. With these laws. I do have just, like, other books, and this can kind of wrap us up before we go into the break. Like, other books that have a material legislative impact are. You can look at things like Uncle Tom's Cabin and Frederick Douglass because of what they did to advance the cause against slavery. You've got how the Other Half Lives about, you know, housing conditions in New York City. You've got the Grapes of Wrath for migrant conditions. Like Eleanor Roosevelt calls for congressional hearings. There's an environmental book I didn't know about called Silent Spring. Rachel Carson wrote it. It led to the ban of ddt. And then you can follow the domino meme to the creation of the epa. And then the thing I was always thinking about is, like, unsafe at Any Speed by our old friend Ralph Nader, which leads. It was. Writes about seatbelts and cars. And then it leads to, like, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration within a year. So that's a similar turnaround to the jungle Boy.

[Andrew]

That Ralph Nader has a way of doing small things that turn into big things, doesn't he?

[Craig]

Doesn't he?

[Andrew]

Doesn't he?

[Craig]

You know, you've got other works that are, like, less legislatively direct, like Bear My Heart at Wounded Knee, Our Bodies, Ourselves, Stone Butch Blues. But, you know, books. Books have changed the world.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The pen. The pen is mightier than the sword. That's what they say in these books.

[Craig]

That's what they say. So, Andrew, I'm excited to. Well, I'm Excited is not the word. I'm interested to gorge myself on the rest of this episode and.

[Andrew]

Sure. Well, let me just. Let me just mix up all this meat with a bunch of spice and chemicals to color it so it looks and tastes like something, and it's definitely.

[Craig]

Like spice and not like pencil shavings.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right. It's not. There's no potato flour in these sausages.

[Craig]

Oh, no. Okay, we'll see on the other side, I guess. Andrew, this episode is brought to you by Real Quick Reviews.

[Andrew]

Whoa.

[Craig]

They're so quick. Go to qreviews on Instagram. Thanks to Tom, one of our Patreon supporters. Real Quick Reviews doesn't waste your time. See the pros and cons of a video game. As well as scores in a single picture, there are individual scores on how good the good parts are and how bad the bad parts are. I cannot stress how much I like this concept because both scores are out of 10. And, like, if. It's just kind of like, what if somebody played the game only looking for the good parts? And what if somebody played the game only looking at the bad parts and then assigned the score accordingly? So it's. It's fun. You get reviews of stuff like Citizen Sleeper and Baldur's Gate 3, which I think we've said. Andrew and I have been playing a lot, and his assessments are pretty accurate to our experience. And that it's wonderful, but also sometimes it just turns itself off or, you know, makes it so one of your friends can't play it until you all stop playing it. It's just. These are just video games these days. That happens. And each review also rewards you. Tom does a free Steam game giveaway on every review, most recently giving away stuff like Blasphemous 2, which is a sequel to the 2019 Spanish Roman Catholic Metroidvania. Blasphemous again. For game reviews that don't overstay their welcome, head to qreviews on Instagram. Andrew, I have one question for you.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

Where's the beef?

[Andrew]

It's in Chicago.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

In the. In the early 20th century. This is where all the beef Is happening.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

That's all. It's in the Chicago stockyards, which operated until like the 70s, I think I was reading a little bit about them. The only thing that still stands is like an archway that used to like lead into them. And it's a historical landmark now. But yes, for many, many years before globalization started ruining everything. Oh my God, the Chicago stockyards were big, big source of meat. And they draw a lot of workers in trying to, you know, trying to chase the American dream, trying to find a job where it seems like there's going to be work, but then other things happen, you know.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Sometimes you make plans and God laughs, you know.

[Craig]

That's one way to look at it, I suppose. I read that the guys running this stock, the stockyards were called the Beef Trust.

[Andrew]

Yes, the Beef Trust, which is. There's a lot of like. What was that? The beat? The Meat Report.

[Craig]

The Meat Report, what you're talking about.

[Andrew]

There's a lot of like cool sounding names that you get with like meat and then other words. Yeah, like the Trust.

[Craig]

Yeah, well, because so we use so many of those words idiomatically now that then to hear them used literally is kind of silly.

[Andrew]

Yes. So yeah, to go back to what we thought the book was going in, like. Yeah, I did. I didn't know it was about socialism primarily. And I also did not know it was a novel. Stylistically. It does like, it does have a story, it does have a. Have a main character that it follows through many, you know, many trials and tribulations. But also there are big parts where Sinclair is just describing things that the main character is seeing or hearing for a very, very long time in a way that makes it clear that it's. It's function is to be propaganda. And not using that as like a, I think has a negative connotation, propaganda. But you know, you. In this, in this context, I'm just saying he clearly has a. Has a message that he's trying to convey and this is the way that he's choosing to.

[Craig]

The term, like. I'm familiar with the Soviet Union term agit prop, which is like, you know, involves propaganda and agitation and it is like kind of literature, plays, art, etc, that is, I mean, that is for like communism specifically. But it is like this kind of like. Yeah, you can make art that has a. All art is political, first of all. Second, you can make art that is like explicitly political, which is also fine.

[Andrew]

Like. No, I read like the movie W.

[Craig]

Like the movie W or First Daughter or First kid or whatever, any version.

[Andrew]

Of Olympus has fallen.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

All political films.

[Craig]

The. The thing I read that about the writing of it was that he, like, you know, he had a whole bunch of people he met while he was undercover or whatever for seven weeks, and he rolled them all into the story of this one family or character or something like that. Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So our main character, his name is Jurgis Rudkus, and he is a recent immigrant from Lithuania. He's come over with his family because of economic hardship, and they come to make a life for themselves in America because they hear that there is opportunity there and that it is a free country.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And that is a play. It's a place where a man can, you know, make something of himself. Sure. And from the jump, Yorgis and his entire family are just getting fleeced by everybody constantly. Like, starting with paying passage on the. On the boat over. They very quickly get into, like. So they're living in apartment. In an apartment with somebody for a while, and then they are contacted by this agent who has this brand new house to sell them, and they're very excited to start paying on this brand new house. And, you know, it's. They just have to pay a little bit a week for or a little bit a month for 10 years. And then they own the house. Like, it's pretty like a recognizable sort of mortgage thing. But the agent, you know, they don't speak a lot of English. The agent doesn't tell them that they also have to pay for insurance, and they have to, like, and then taxes and all kinds of other stuff. So they've done the math on what they need to make to, like, own this house. But then there's a bunch of fine print that gets them, and they also end up, like, getting a bunch of their furniture in a similar sort of deal. You know, you pay a little bit up front, and then you just make payments on it until you own it. But if you miss a payment, like, it's just. It's just gone. There's not a. There are no systems involved for, like, there's no, like, debt collection or anything. They just throw you out on your butt.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

So they find out that this brand new house that they've allegedly bought is in fact an old house that another family lived in.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

And what this agent and this company does is they just, they. They take the house, they fix it up a little bit, they put a fresh coat of paint on it, and they sell it as new to the next people. Oh, so this is kind of emblematic of the stuff that is happening to Yorgis and everybody. They're just kind of being played because they don't understand how anything really works in Chicago. So, okay, they're here. They are trying to make a make. Make their way. There's a little bit at the beginning of the book. Like, it opens with a big, like, wedding feast for Jurgis and his wife Ona, who is, I think, 15. Oh, I think. Okay. And there is. There's a lot of talking about how there's something. There's something about this new country that seems to. To make people meaner than they used to be in the old country, you know?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Here's a bit now. However, since they had come to the new country, all this was changing. It seemed as if there must be some subtle poison in the air that once breathed here. It was affecting all the men at once. They would come in crowds and fill themselves with a fine dinner and then sneak off. So talking about how in the old country, you come to a wedding, you feast, and then you leave a present for the bride and groom, and it helps, like, pay for the feast and also helps them get on their feet as a newly married couple. No, here in America, everybody just came and ate and left.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

Because there. There are just that. And this is. These little incidents are. Are our first, like, glimpse into all of the systems that are just, like, eating people alive in this book, in this society.

[Craig]

Yes. It is my understanding that the title is a metaphor for capitalism.

[Andrew]

You might be right about that. You might have something there.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But Yirgis is, you know, he is young, he is able bodied. He's like, I'm gonna work and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna pay our way, and we're going to have a good life, and that's gonna be what I do. And so, you know, Jurgis goes and gets a job at a meat pack in. In the meatpacking district. Like, they're in the. They live in Packingtown. Packer town. Yeah, they live in Packingtown. Everybody works at the meatpacking plant or in, like, things that are down or upstream of the meatpacking plant. A big passage of this book is like, yorgis goes to the meatpacking plant. And then the book just, like, injects all of this bad stuff that's happening at the meatpacking plant, like, directly.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Into your eyeball.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

So you hear all about, like, how fast all the workers have to work, like, how bad the managers all are. Like, here's. He's a beef boner. And that is a dangerous trade, especially when you are on piecework and trying to earn a bride. Your hands are slippery and your knife is slippery and you are toiling like mad when somebody happens to speak to you or you strike a bone, then your hand slips up on the blade, then there's a fearful gash that would not be so bad only for the deadly contagion. The cut may heal, but you never can tell.

[Craig]

Oh, but you never can tell up this.

[Andrew]

Just talking about how dirty everything is and how people get infections all the time and how, you know, if you, if you get sick or don't show up, you just get switched out with somebody else and you can come back after you're better and the boss can just be like, no, we gave your spot away. We don't have a job here for you anymore.

[Craig]

I do. Okay, just real quick, I think the, the nugget. The, the nugget. I don't want to say that in an episode about meat. The bit where it's about the worker getting sick. Right. Where as I think the book has been, you know, talked about broadly is like, well, it's about that worker's blood on your meat.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like, it's just the perspective shift.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that's like directly about.

[Craig]

The quality of the meat and stuff.

[Andrew]

Like that and just how it's, you know, there's supposed to be these regulations on what happens with, with like pigs and cows that are diseased or they show up dead and they make some kind of like token effort to separate them, but then it all ends up going back together into the same stuff. Like you get the, the meat that goes to like high end restaurants and like people who actually are of means like that that meat is treated better. But if you get down to like the canned stuff that they are giving out as like army rations or whatever. Yeah, it's just whatever organic bits they can scrape together and grind up with spices and throw into a can. Like regardless of whether the animals were diseased or whether the meat was rotten or any of that, like, it's, it's, there's a lot that's directly about how disgusting the meat is. So I get, I get that.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But then. Yeah, you also have. Yeah. Like there's a, there's a. There, there are men who work at like the rendering plant or whatever, and sometimes a man just falls into the vats and they can't fish him out until there's nothing left to fish out. And then he goes out the door as lard or what?

[Craig]

Like, I'm waiting for. I was waiting for the bit for. He became like a Batman villain, like, like Meat man or something.

[Andrew]

No, but.

[Craig]

No, become a Batman. He just, he just, he uncovered.

[Andrew]

Yeah. All of his organic stuff gets mixed in with all the other animal stuff and he just goes out the door as product. And you know, stuff about the, you know, there is zero social mobility. Like, if you're. There is not. There's not an opportunity for the peons who are mostly immigrants, mostly can't speak English. There's a little bit in here about the kind of the hierarchy of immigrants, like, based on different waves that have come in. So, you know, there are some people who, like, came before Lithuanians, but they're not here so much. And then there are some people who. The Lithuanian sea is below them and they like, they, they wouldn't, you know, they, they won't give up on their, like, propriety and their traditions as much as those people.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And then you mentioned, you mentioned some of that stuff about Sinclair. There's. I don't think there's a lot of anti Semitic stuff in here. There is a little bit about that. There's a strike on at one point and all the scabs who come in are all like, black and they're like, horrible and lazy and they violent and they all steal the knives and, like, hide them in their boots so they can all be carrying around knives all the time. I'm not saying it, not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying that it's not an amazing look.

[Craig]

Good look.

[Andrew]

No.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Not that, not to. That's. That's a weird way to say. I'm just.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's bad and it's not, it's not.

[Andrew]

It just, you know, like, hey, Mr. Sinclair, are you. Do you happen to be attuned to certain things about these workers because of the way that they look and then speak like, is that, Is that, Is that what's going on here? That's all. I mean.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yep.

[Andrew]

I'm not, I'm not trying to be like, oh, this is problematic.

[Craig]

No, it's. It. I mean, it's about problematic stuff anyway, so.

[Andrew]

But not, not, not doing it in that blanket way where you just say something is, like, problematic because it doesn't conform to, like, our current understanding of race relations or whatever.

[Craig]

No, I'm fine to have that be our take on Sinclair.

[Andrew]

Just feel like I'm having trouble getting my head all the way around all of it because I feel like you can easily ignore the little narrative wrapper that the book comes in and just focus on all the issues that he's talking about all the time.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's not one to one, but the kind of like sometimes the book is not a novel. It's just giving you information, like, direct into your brain does remind me of like the weirdness that is a book like Moby Dick. It's, it's totally different in terms of like what it's, what its intent is.

[Andrew]

I think, yeah. Moby Dick, even. I think that the separation between novel parts and like this, it's cleaning on a whaling boat is like, it's, it's. Yeah, it's more extreme than this.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's chapter by chapter. But it does have that aggregate effect of like, well, can I just have the boat parts or can I just have the whale? Wikipedia. Like, what am I get. And this is, Is it because, like you're trying to carry. Should I talk about these characters or should I talk about his message?

[Andrew]

No, I think, I think as you. The reason to make it a novel and part of what makes it effective as a vessel for the message that it has is that Yorgis is like, you are there with him and million versions of this story and you get, you know, you don't just follow what happens to Yorgis. You get a lot of examples of what different industries are like. Like what people in different industries have to go through. I have a long passage on that that I can read in a sec.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But you are focused on his specific journey and you're there when like his wife dies in labor because they can't afford a doctor. And you're there when his like his one and a half year old son, like, drowns in the street because, you know, the sidewalk was rotten and the street is just a big muddied, swampy pit because nobody's taking care of it.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Okay. You know, you see them get booted out of their house because Jurgis gets into a fight with his wife's boss because his wife's boss sexually assaulted her.

[Craig]

Oh, gosh.

[Andrew]

And then he goes to jail for a month and it totally ruins the family. They're out of the house. They're. They're like worse off than they've ever been. They can, they don't have enough able bodied, like people to work who can earn a living because you see them. What you see with Yurgis, a bunch of times is that he, like, almost gets a toehold and almost gets his life under control. And the book will be like, yeah, he started to hope and have dreams again, and then he got hurt at work and it ruined everything. And he was back down at the bottom of the ladder, like, worse off than he had ever been before.

[Craig]

Can I ask, and I'll read a comment from one of our Discord users, Mary Garth, who said you mentioned on this year's Horny Days book that those books have to juggle the plot, the smooching and the Christmas. And I imagine the jungle also has to juggle multiple things. The plot and the muckraking, and within that, the labor muckraking and the food safety muckraking. I'm curious if you think those things work in tandem or if one pulls focus from the other, you're making a case for them working kind of in tandem. But I want to ask specifically, like, kind of, what is the tone of some of this stuff? When you mentioned, like, the example of his son dying in the street, you, Andrew just kind of mentioned some of the systemic stuff that leads to that. Is that systemic commentary in the book as well in, like, the, from the narrator's voice or whatever? Or is that it's.

[Andrew]

It's more like, I don't know, it. It shifts back and forth really quickly between, like, this is what Yorgis is doing. And then here I'm gonna go for a few paragraphs about what this thing, what, what, what this system that Yorgis is entering into is, like, for other people or like, what Yorgis observed. But you do get, like, when Yorgis is coming home from a new job that he's gotten, and he's, you know, his, his wife has died at this point, but his son has not. And he's, you know, they're crammed into an apartment with somebody. But he does have it. He did manage to get a job. And there are just, like, you know, tens of thousands of people in Chicago without jobs who just go from place to place trying to get something. But they are, like, they've been hurt before or they're old or they're, like, underfed and weak. And so they just can't get a job. And so they're big parts of the novel where Jurgis is wandering the streets barely able to, like, scrape a nickel together. And so the parts where he gets a new job for a little while is like, oh, hey, Jurgis thinks that he's. Maybe he can get ahead and maybe he can have this American dream life that he had always thought was possible for himself. And then, you know, as soon. As soon as the book is like. And then Yorgis started to feel something like hope again, you know, that something awful is about to happen.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, like, that's. That is when he comes home and he finds out, oh, his son has died in the street, has drowned in this. In this, like, swampy canal thing that the street becomes in the summer. All the descriptions of how the winters are, because they're in Chicago, like, right on the lake, are brutal. Like, it's just so. So cold and so snowy and people losing fingers, and it's. It becomes a whole different. And the work dries up because you have the holiday rush, and then there's a. You know, there's a lull after that.

[Craig]

And I'm sure people lose their jobs and then don't get.

[Andrew]

Yeah, people. People get sent home with no notice. And then, you know, is. Is the, like, canning plant gonna open back up or not? Like, who knows? If it does open back up, are they gonna let you back in? Like, there is just no guarantee of anything. And so to go back to how the narrative and the muckraking stuff blends like the muck. The focus is overwhelmingly on the muckraking, I think. But there's enough narrative here, and what's here is, like, effective enough and, like, dramatically efficient enough that it makes you feel what it's supposed to feel. And you do. Even though, you know the point of the book is not for Yorgis to have, like, a half amazing, happy life at the end, you still.

[Craig]

Do.

[Andrew]

You really want to. You really want it to work out for him. You really want this guy to catch a break, because he does seem very happy in the moments where he gets to be happy for a little bit, and then it all just comes crashing back down again. Inevitably.

[Craig]

Does. Does the novel spend any time with people other than Jurgis in, like, a significant way or there? Like, people he meets that we care about?

[Andrew]

You spend a little bit of time with other family members, though never in, like, a point of view kind of way. Like, he's got, you know, you hear a little bit about things that happened to his. His wife Ona. You hear a little bit about things that happen to. I think it's his cousin Marija.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Who is. Who is, you know, a boisterous woman who's full of joy and is trying to save up enough money to get married to this musician guy that she. That she has met since they have immigrated to America and same deal, like, just setback after setback. And eventually, like, Jurgis finds her again after like a year or so, because after his son dies, he just. He just bounces like one of another member of the family just left with no warning a while ago. And Jurgis was like, you know, I've got a wife. I've got a kid. I can. I cannot do that. But it did. Like, the thought did. Had occurred to him, like, what if I did that? And so when his son dies in the street, he's like, you know what? I'm. I'm out. I'm leaving. But so Yorgis does come back to Chicago and had. There's a little. There's more stuff that happens that we can. We can talk about. But yeah, he. He catches up with his cousin and she's like, she's in a. She. She's in a brothel and that's what she's doing. And she's like, addicted to drugs. And that's just. She's kind of stuck there because she's like. She pays them for food and drink and board and things. And so she. They just. She is indebted to them and she can never leave.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And that's the. That's kind of the arc of everybody in the book. Everybody. Everybody barely makes enough money to live. They go to work at like 7am and come back at 8 or 9pm Then they get up and they do it all over again. And if you do. If you start work at 9:02, you get docked the entire hour of pay. But if you start work early at like 8:45, you don't get paid for the 15 minutes that you worked before 9. Like, it's very. Everything they can do to get people. They do.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

That's the way that the. That's the way it is in the book.

[Craig]

Okay. What passages do you want to share?

[Andrew]

Yeah, so there's. I haven't got a lot of stuff about. So, okay, here's. It's mostly about meatpacking, especially early on, but you do expand out to other industries. And also the book talks a lot about political graft specifically. And as it is in. In the late book, as it is diving more into being like, explicitly a. The first part of the book is very much here. Here are all the problems. I'm going to tell you all about them.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And then the last, like, quarter of the book or so gets around to being socialism is the answer to all the problems.

[Craig]

Huh?

[Andrew]

And if you, you know, if you go in prepared to interpret it and encounter it as a socialist text, you can see that all the way through. But then, you know, there's the scene where Yurgis is sitting. He's just gone into a socialist gathering to get warm in a. In a low moment. And then he starts paying attention to the person who's speaking. And then there are just pages and pages of monologue about how great socialism is.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

And that's, that's when it becomes like selling you something in addition to just like providing information to you.

[Craig]

What is it like to read? I mean, share some of it. Yeah, I also want to know what it's like.

[Andrew]

That's what I'm getting to. So here's some stuff about what it, what it is like. In other industries around town. There were the men in the pickle rooms, for instance, where old antennas has got. Had gotten his death. That is, I believe, Ona's dad, okay, an older member of the family who dies pretty early in their. In their ark. Scarce of one of these that had not. Had not some spot of horror on his person. Let a man so much as scrape his finger pushing a truck in the pickle rooms and he might have a sword that would put him out of the world. All the joints in his fingers might be eaten by the acid. One by one of the butchers and floorsmen, the beef boners and trimmers and all those who use knives. You could scarcely find a person who had the use of his thumb. Time and time again the base of it had been slashed till it was a mere lump of flesh against which the man pressed the knife to hold it. The hands of these men would be crisscrossed with cuts until you could no longer pretend to count them or to trace them. They would have no nails. They had worn them off pulling hides. Their knuckles were swollen so that their fingers were spread out like a fan. There were men who worked in the cooking rooms in the midst of steam and sickening odors by artificial light. In these rooms the germs of tuberculosis might live for two years, but the supply was renewed every hour. There were the beef luggers who carried 200 pound quarters into the refrigerator cars. A fearful kind of work that began at 4:00 in the morning and that wore out the most powerful men in a few years. There were those who worked in the chilling rooms and whose special disease was rheumatism. The time limit that a man could work in the chilling rooms was. Was said to be five years. There were the wool pluckers whose hands went to pieces even sooner than the hands of the pickle men, for the pelts of the sheep had to be painted with acid to loosen the wool. Then the pluckers had to pull out this wool with their bare hands till the acid had eaten their fingers off. There were those who made the tins for the canned meat, and their hands, too, were a maze of cuts, and each cut represented a chance for blood poisoning. Some worked at the stamping machines, and it was very seldom that one could work there, work long there at the pace that was set, and not give out and forget himself and have a part of his hand chopped off. And there are similar bits of this for, like, Yurgis is. Is digging a tunnel under the city at one point with a crew, and it talks about all the ways that people can get hurt and used up. He's working at, like, a steel plant at one point, and it talks about how a bunch of molten steel, like, blows out of a. Like an oven and gets on to people and Jurgis runs over to help them and, like, burns the skin off of his hands and that puts him out of work, and, like, that's how he loses that job. It is all. Yeah, like, it goes on for long passages like that that are just drilling you with, like, specific, like, visceral details of stuff that happens in different places. Like, there. There is no level of this that is not bad for people, that is not like, exploiting people. And that's. That is, I think, what the bulk of the book is. And then the narrative is in there to kind of move you from place to place or topic to topic even.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Because once Jurgis encounters a new thing, well, then you get a chance to dig down into the systems and what is wrong with all of the systems?

[Craig]

Sure, sure, sure, yeah. And, like, there is an element of. In this writing, you can see in this kind of expose writing, there's, like, with the Muckrakers, there's a connection to yellow journalism and, like, kind of, like lurid storytelling, though even Sinclair would wind up writing about, like, a, you know, a big critique of yellow journalism in the brass Check, like, a decade later. So there is this, like. Yeah, it strikes me as I'm doing reporting on the stuff that's going to make your eyes bug out of your head, and I'm going to try to connect it to human beings wherever possible, even though in a sea, in a sequence like this, he's not humanizing those individual people. But does this quote come later in the. Does this, like, passage. Is that later in the book or is that. Where. Is this, like, what you just read? The.

[Andrew]

What I just read is that. That one's a little bit earlier by the time you get later in the book. All the long passages are all about socialism and how good it is.

[Craig]

Is there anything else about the meat that you think is, like, particular? I don't. We. I didn't come here just to have you read me gross passages about meat.

[Andrew]

No, and I don't. And I. What the book is not trying to be. I don't think it's not trying to be like, a vegetarian text.

[Craig]

No, it doesn't seem like that.

[Andrew]

I think there could be a reading of it. That. That. That's that way.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Because what the book is trying to do is like. Like you mentioned, tell you how gross the meat is to. As a way to get you to sympathize with the workers who are being exploited in the service of making them eat that way. But it's not like killing pigs is wrong. There's never any of that.

[Craig]

No. Yeah. It makes me think of, like, the. We have an avian flu thing going on at the time of this recording, and the people. Most. The people most at risk for it are the people handling livestock. Yeah, Right. And one of the obstacles to properly doing something about it has to do with how we don't take care of those people. Yeah. So, yeah, it's just. Okay. How does it. How does the socialism stuff read? Because one of our.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Let's. Let's get into to that. I do like the stuff. Reading this during the first week of Trump, where everything just seems kind of. Everything seems on the table in a way that is not in a bad way. Yeah, right. I got into some, like, bad brain loops on this one. Sure.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Reading passages like, day after day, he roamed about in the Arctic cold, his soul filled full of bitterness and despair. He saw the world of civilization then more plainly than ever he had seen it before. A world in which nothing counted but brutal might. An order devised by those who possessed it for the subjugation of those who did not. So my over. We'll talk about the socialism thing. My overwhelming takeaway from this book, though, was just like, boy, it's a thin veneer of society that separates most of us from, like, complete destitution. You know? Like, I think you and I are more lucky on that front than a lot of people are by, like, virtue of, I don't know, the. The jobs that we've had and the, the families that we have, like, we have support systems that I think would keep us from falling as low as a person could possibly fall, but especially if you're doing, like, part time hourly work. Like, a lot of these systems are still pretty, like, recognizable, like people working multiple jobs and sleeping in their car because it's the only way to afford the place where they live so they can, like, have lives. Like, it's all. It's a very recognizable kind of cycle.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And so that, that brings me into the socialism part where my like. But I really like a lot of the messages here. Just like personally, but also you also. A lot of it is also like, every kind of guy has already been invented and has existed for hundreds and hundreds of years. Every kind of guy who exists.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

This is after Jurgis. Yorgis becomes socialist. He sits in this meeting and he is converted. And he has the zeal of the.

[Craig]

Of the, of the convert. Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

He had one unfailing remedy for all the evils of this world, and he preached it to everyone. No matter whether the person's trouble was failure in business or dyspepsia or a quarrelsome mother in law. A twinkle would come into his eyes and he would say, you know what to do about it. Vote the socialist ticket.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

And this is very much people on. People on Twitter who are. And we could, we could, we could both sides a little bit. Like, say you blame capitalism for literally everything, including, like, minor inconveniences.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Or say you blame DEI for things like wildfires and bridges collapsing. Yeah, yeah, just. I just, it just struck me a little bit funny where there. Yes, there are guys who will bring everything back to their one pet issue, no matter what you do. And they have, and they've always existed.

[Craig]

The.

[Andrew]

After 30 years of fighting, the year 1896 had served to convince him this is a boss of Yerges's, after he converts to socialism, had served to convince him that the power of concentrated wealth could never be controlled, but could only be destroyed. So that's getting into, like, do we reform capitalism or do we try to get rid of it? Like, all of. All of these still very live debates are still happening in this book, including ones where people who are people who are working these hours trying to scrape together enough money to live while the bosses and their bosses amass more and more wealth. They defend capitalism as a, as a, as a great system because, you know, because of individualism and because. Yeah, yeah, all the, all these same kind of like, Libertarian arguments that are still floating around now.

[Craig]

Yeah. You know, the market, etc.

[Andrew]

In this book.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

It's just I, I kind of recommend reading it in this day and age because it still feels, still, it does still feel vital. And I'm not, I feel like I'm like advocating for socialism explicitly in a way that I am not trying to do personally. I'm just like, this is what the, this is what the book is doing. This is what the book's sure is.

[Craig]

Nora in our Discord said the ending is hard to read from a modern perspective. Seeing the socialists so optimistic, but knowing what's going to happen to the reputation of socialism over the next hundred years.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So that I was wondering if you had a similar take it. It seems like no, you were just like, I'm so excited to read about this socialism.

[Andrew]

No, I mean, so you get the end of the book kind of lands with a little bit of a thud, I think because it's just like two guys arguing about.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

How they feel about socialism for the whole time in a way that kind of made my eyes glaze over a little bit. But yeah, there's like this penultimate bit of the book where there is an election that is happening and what we've been told about socialism and about how the project is going is that like one socialist makes another socialist at the rate of like one every two years or so.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And so the movement is just growing and growing and as everybody's eyes are opened, like everybody's just going to keep advocating for it and finally we're going to rise up one day and we're going to beat the bosses and we're going to make a more like equitable society for everybody.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

I think that might be the part where Nora's talking about it being maybe bummer.

[Craig]

Modern, modern media did not exist in the same way, which is a big obstacle at least currently in the landscape that we're in. Among other things, among things like the military industrial complex or you know, other.

[Andrew]

But also, but also, you know, the other thing that's happening now that I don't think it happened in this at the time that the book is being written is like there are examples of failed socialist states.

[Craig]

Like that's also true.

[Andrew]

There's a reason why there are a lot of like immigrants from countries like Cuba and Florida who react really viscerally to accusations of socialism against like given politicians because they have experience with some variant on that system and their experiences with it are. Are bad.

[Craig]

Yes, sure.

[Andrew]

Which I think just Means personally, my. Where I'm coming from on it is just like every system if allowed to run completely rampant without. With tons of corruption and graft and with no mechanism for people to correct it. Like any system is going to end up being bad and benefiting the power.

[Craig]

Bad people will be bad whenever they can be bad.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Just. And power corrupts. Like, that's just. That's kind of a natural, you know, thing that happens, unfortunately.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So if we're talking about like the modern reputation of socialism. Yeah. There are definitely some examples of socialist states or like nominally socialist states that like, didn't. That didn't go great. Yep, yep, yep. I don't know if I have a cohesive, like, cogent political point to make, but just like, I don't know, I. There is a copy of this on Project Gutenberg. It's a. That's the big repository of like public domain ebooks.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

That you can read. If you're digging through these things on Amazon, you'll often find like really badly packaged ones from somebody who just wants to get like 299 off of you. And then you look at it and it's like horribly formatted and there's a bunch of like OCR nonsense. The Gutenberg stuff, you can read it on pretty much anything, including your computer. And then you can also use like the send to Kindle thing on your Kindle and read it like any old. Any old ebook. But if you, like me, are an ebook person, it is up there on Project Gutenberg and it's easy to get and I think you should at least try to read it. Like, it's just. I don't know, like it's.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Something about how thin that veil is really is really like, clarifying. I think if you are in our present moment and you're worried about it.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

I will read a bunch of Apple podcast reviews complaining about how we're political after we put this episode up.

[Craig]

But like, well, I mean, whatever.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we.

[Craig]

We're political, Andrew. We're political animals over here and we live in a jungle. It's fine. And Mary. Mary Garth also said if. That she hadn't read the Jungle, but she read a book by Ale Press called Dirty Work, which is from 2022. There's a whole section about slaughterhouse workers that references Upton Sinclair and quote, turns out things are still pretty grim. Yeah. You know, are everything we went through under severe lockdown should, you know, let alone everything else that's going on. It's like a reminder of how folks in this type of work are often taken advantage of severely because the work needs to get done. So thank you for reading the book, Andrew. I'm glad that you were. It did not turn your stomach so bad that you could make it through.

[Andrew]

There are a couple moments where I had to put it down for a.

[Craig]

Second where the meat Report got too intense.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the meat report was too intense. But mostly it was just. I hate how much of this book from 1906 that I am finding relevant modern things in.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

This is not an academic exercise. It feels like it is.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

These debates are happening again or still or something in a way that I don't love.

[Craig]

Well, and what you said at the beginning of the show. Right. Is like, which kind of, I think, ties together the precarity to. The precarity you've just been talking about for individual people is just like a lot of the things that this. People put in place in response to this book are suddenly on the table for review and revision in ways that seem, I don't know, bad Every time I get news about a listeria outbreak right at some plant somewhere.

[Andrew]

But. But let's. Okay, so I found myself doom spiraling.

[Craig]

Yeah. Okay. Yep.

[Andrew]

But let's also. Let's also think about positive impacts. Like. Yeah, yes, yes, society is still bad and there are a lot of bad things that are still happening, But I don't think things are as bad for as many people as there are as they are in this. In this book.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Like, there was, like, there was progress made and this system where in the book you just. It's just like Democrats and Republicans buying votes and voting multiple times and stuff that people try to raise now as, you know, as voter fraud or whatever that just, like, does not happen at a statistically significant rate.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Just like, how utterly corrupt and unmoored from anything that, like, the. The governed wanted this. This society was. And yet individuals working within the system and politicians in the system still, like, manage to make meaningful improvements. Like, I think there's something there that you can grab onto.

[Craig]

Yep. Yep.

[Andrew]

If you're kind of. If you're kind of looking for the way out is like, yeah, like, keep advocating for the stuff you care about. I've seen on Blue Sky a few times somebody talking about, like, what. What to do to be effective. Because it seems like in this age we've moved past, like, just like marching about everything. Which is what the vibe was in like 2017. Yeah. Yeah. Is like, pick one or two issues that you care about and pay attention to the news about those issues and do stuff about those issues and try not to pay attention to everything all at once because it's going to be overwhelming and you're not gonna, you're not gonna be effective and you're not gonna get anything out of that.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I agree with that. Yeah. So it's, you know, there are green shoots. I guess destruction often comes before like new building and new growth.

[Craig]

So hopefully green shoots where they are supposed to be and not in the food where they're not supposed to be, I hope.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I don't know if I did a good job talking about this book. I really feel like I did not.

[Craig]

I learned a lot about a book I didn't know anything about. So it's kind of, it's just kind.

[Andrew]

Of an emotionally intense read, which is.

[Craig]

What I had, which is an interesting report on, you know, which seems to align with the experience of people at the time.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

Right. And also is an interesting response to a book that was like serially published in a socialist like magazine. Like the fact that the whole back part of it is like socialism good is not surprising when you consider who cut the checks for him to go there in the first place.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Craig]

But doesn't mean that that invalidates the argument. So thanks to all of our listeners who chimed in, folks in the discord who shared your thoughts about the book. Again, Andrew, thanks for chewing the fat with me on this episode.

[Andrew]

You can't say that. You can't do that.

[Craig]

Thanks to everybody joining us on Socialism Media this past week. Find us at Overdue Pod. Jeffrey, Robert, Becky, Jordan, Molly, Chelsea, Mark, Ingrid and many more. Thanks to Nick Lauren just who composed our theme music. Andrew, if folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is our Internet website. We have the books that we have read and the ones that we are going to read up there. Craig, I believe you have our February schedule.

[Craig]

I do have loaded the February schedule. Next week talking about the Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehood Whitehead. Now a major motion picture. In the Midst of Winter by Isabela and the Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett. And then we shall anamorph with the invasion Animorphs number one by KA Applegate. That's the month of February for you. If you are listening to. Sorry, excuse me, February. If you are listening to this episode, the week it drops. We also have our first monthly kind of Q and A hangout stream coming up on Friday, January 31st. Join us for that again.

[Andrew]

And our second newsletter is coming out.

[Craig]

Yes, Andrew, if folks are interested in those extra bonus content details, where should they go?

[Andrew]

Patreon.com overduepod is where you get access to all the stuff that the cool people are talking about. Have you ever worried about being left out or of not being cool? Well patreon.com overdue pod we can fix it for you.

[Craig]

Did Upton Sinclair write a book about like feeling uncool ever? I feel like it would be very visceral.

[Andrew]

I think you would call it the Jungle but it would be about high school.

[Craig]

Oh, like at the beginning. Yes.

[Andrew]

But yeah. Ad free version of the show. Access to our current long read project which is Sit Me Baby One more time about Anne M. Martin's the Babysitters Club series. Lots of other stuff all up [e-mail] overduepod when you support us directly, you buy books, you buy equipment, you buy all the stuff that we need to live.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

You help us escape our wage slave existence and continue podcasting. That's what the book. It's all about. Wage slavery, Craig.

[Craig]

I know that's what it says.

[Andrew]

That's the words that use.

[Craig]

Those are the words. Those are the words.

[Andrew]

Class consciousness, Craig. It's all in this book. It's all in this book from 120 years ago and it's driving me nuts.

[Craig]

Yeah, I know, I know man. Let's go eat a hamburger about it.

[Andrew]

No, I'm not going to. Alright everybody, until we talk to you next week, I guess. Please try to be happy.