Ep 688 - The Nickel Boys, by Colson Whitehead

Summary

Overdue Podcast: Episode 688 - The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead

Host: Headgum
Episode Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 688 of Overdue, hosts Craig and Andrew delve into The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, exploring its harrowing portrayal of systemic abuse within a segregated reform school. The episode, released in early February, sets a contemplative tone as the hosts transition from lighthearted banter about Groundhog Day to the profound themes embedded in Whitehead's novel.

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Background on The Nickel Boys and Colson Whitehead

Craig initiates the discussion by revisiting Colson Whitehead's literary journey. Having previously covered Whitehead's The Underground Railroad in Episode 311, Andrew provides a brief overview of Whitehead's accolades, including his second Pulitzer Prize for Fiction awarded for The Nickel Boys. The hosts highlight Whitehead's continued exploration of America's dark historical undercurrents, emphasizing his intent to shed light on systemic injustices.

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Inspiration: The Dozier School for Boys

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the real-life inspiration behind The Nickel Boys. Andrew shares detailed information about the Dozier School for Boys in Florida, operated from 1911 to 2009. The institution was notorious for severe abuse, including corporal punishment, sexual abuse, and even murder. Key points discussed include:

• Historical Context: The school was racially segregated, with a disproportionate number of black students.
• Allegations and Investigations: Persistent allegations of abuse were substantiated by investigations revealing 55 discovered burials in 2012, with ongoing efforts identifying nearly 100 documented deaths.
• Legacy and Apologies: In 2017, Florida officially apologized to the victims, and a compensation bill passed in 2024, marking a rare acknowledgment from the legislature.

Notable Quote:
Andrew mentions, “Elwood didn't get it. Go all that way. Might as well follow through.” ([19:48])

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Plot Overview and Structure

Craig provides an insightful breakdown of the novel's dual timeline structure:

• 1960s Nickel Academy: The narrative follows Elwood Curtis and Turner, two boys sent to the reform school. Elwood embodies optimism, influenced by his grandmother’s teachings and his admiration for Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., while Turner represents cynicism, shaped by his disillusionment with systemic oppression.

• 2010s Investigation: In modern times, an investigation uncovers the dark history of Nickel Academy, prompting Elwood to confront his past and the collective trauma of the survivors.

The hosts appreciate Whitehead's economical yet impactful storytelling, noting the book's concise 200-page length that effectively balances historical exposition with personal narratives.

Notable Quote:
Craig reflects, “It's mostly Elwood's book, especially because you're getting these brief glimpses into the present day.” ([20:14])

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Character Analysis: Elwood and Turner

Elwood Curtis:
Elwood is portrayed as a principled and hopeful young man, striving to make sense of a society mired in racism and injustice. His moral compass is guided by lofty ideals and a belief in gradual progress.

Turner:
In contrast, Turner is pragmatic and disenchanted, viewing survival as the primary goal rather than systemic change. His experiences have hardened him, making him skeptical of Elwood’s optimism.

Notable Quote:
Andrew summarizes Whitehead’s perspective: “Elwood and Turner represent two different parts of my personality. There is the optimistic or hopeful part of me in Elwood... then there's the pessimistic side, the cynical side in Turner.” ([07:32])

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Themes and Analysis

The episode delves into several profound themes:

• Hope vs. Cynicism: The dynamic between Elwood and Turner encapsulates the struggle between maintaining hope in the face of overwhelming adversity and succumbing to cynicism borne from repeated injustices.

• Systemic Oppression: The narrative emphasizes that the evils perpetrated at Nickel Academy are products of a larger, unending system rather than the failings of individual villains.

• Trauma and Memory: The modern-day investigation forces characters to confront suppressed memories and the collective trauma experienced by the survivors, highlighting the difficulty of moving beyond past horrors.

• Resilience and Redemption: Despite the bleak backdrop, the story underscores the resilience of the human spirit and the possibility of redemption through acknowledging and addressing past wrongs.

Notable Quote:
Craig observes, “It's not just an alternate history or playing with reality; it’s exploring the real historical injustices.” ([08:00])

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Narrative Structure and Pacing

The hosts commend Whitehead’s ability to maintain a gripping narrative pace through episodic storytelling, allowing seamless transitions between past and present. They note the effective use of short chapters that encapsulate significant events, such as boxing matches and Christmas interludes, which serve as pivotal points in the storyline.

Notable Quote:
Craig praises the narrative flow: “Whitehead is really good at episodic storytelling where he can just close a chapter, have it be the end of that whole scene, and then just jump ahead a few weeks.” ([44:15])

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Impactful Ending and Reflections

A substantial portion of the discussion centers around the book’s unexpected and emotionally charged ending. Craig and Andrew grapple with the revelation that Turner has assumed Elwood's identity post-escape, allowing him to live a new life while silently honoring his fallen friend. This twist compels them to reflect on themes of identity, guilt, and the enduring impact of trauma.

Notable Quote:
Craig shares his emotional response: “I have to stop and make a note for the podcast, like, as a thing is happening. And then, like, literally three sentences later, Elwood gets shot and falls, and Turner keeps running and it ends.” ([53:01])

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Hosts’ Perspectives and Audience Reactions

Andrew and Craig express deep admiration for Whitehead’s prose and the book’s ability to handle difficult subject matter with grace and emotional depth. They acknowledge the book's capacity to provoke strong emotional responses, as evidenced by listener feedback from their Discord community, including reactions like “full on SOB on the subway” and descriptions of the book as “heartbreaking.”

Notable Quote:
Andrew states, “It's worth reading despite it being kind of difficult, especially now.” ([54:04])

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Conclusion

Episode 688 of Overdue presents a comprehensive and engaging analysis of The Nickel Boys, underpinned by thoughtful discussion and emotional resonance. Craig and Andrew adeptly navigate the novel’s complex themes and narrative intricacies, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of both the book and its real-world inspirations. Their reflections underscore the enduring relevance of Whitehead’s work in examining America's historical and ongoing struggles with racial injustice and institutional brutality.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Historical Context:
  Andrew: “There are 55 burials discovered on the campus in 2012, nearly 100 documented deaths.” ([09:12])

• On Characters Representing Author's Personality:
  Andrew: “Elwood and Turner represent two different parts of my personality.” ([07:32])

• On Narrative Structure:
  Craig: “Whitehead is really good at episodic storytelling where he can just close a chapter...” ([44:15])

• On Emotional Impact:
  Andrew: “It's worth reading despite it being kind of difficult, especially now.” ([54:04])

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Further Engagement

Listeners interested in sharing their thoughts on The Nickel Boys or the episode are encouraged to reach out via email at [e-mail] or connect through Overdue Pod on social media platforms. Supporters can also join the community on Discord or contribute through Patreon for exclusive content and updates.

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Stay tuned for upcoming episodes where Craig and Andrew continue their exploration of overdue reads, promising insightful discussions and engaging literary journeys.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

And it's the second month of the calendar year. Here we are.

[Andrew]

Here we are once again in February. Busting into February. Busting in with eyes wide open. It's still arms wide open.

[Craig]

Oh, not the band I expected you to reference in the opening here.

[Andrew]

No, I'm. I'm. I'm zagging on you.

[Craig]

Oh, yes.

[Andrew]

Where you thought I would zig.

[Craig]

It's still. It's winter still. This is the doldrums of winter now.

[Andrew]

Oh, he saw his. He saw a shadow today. Whichever one means there's more winter.

[Craig]

There's more winter coming.

[Andrew]

Our famous Pennsylvania groundhog punk Satani Phil.

[Craig]

Has cursed us, has cursed these shadowlands with another six weeks of winter. Won't no one end his reign of terror?

[Andrew]

There ought to be a law about this. This unelected groundhog who we let control the weather.

[Craig]

Honestly, it's the unelected men wearing top hats who, like, drag him out of his hole every year. They're the ones behind this.

[Andrew]

Are there actually. Is there actually a guy in a top hat or is that just in the movie Groundhog Day?

[Craig]

I'm googling Groundhog Day.

[Andrew]

I thought maybe you were paying attention to the real ceremony.

[Craig]

Stove Top hats. There's a guy. Okay, there's a guy in a hat. And from the Smithsonian. Yep, there's lots.

[Andrew]

But was this today? Do you have photos from today?

[Craig]

I do not have photos from today. This is from 2017. That's a lot of guys in these hats, though. From Smithsonian. Mac, we're going to talk about the Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead in just a second. But Andrew has to make sure that the men at Gobbler's Knob were wearing the right hats this year in 2025, as they were eight years ago from this article.

[Andrew]

They do wear the top hats. Yeah, according to this USA Today piece with three bylines on it. Like, how much team lifting is required to do this?

[Craig]

This puff piece they are slashing like newsrooms across papers nationwide.

[Andrew]

But yet three people on Groundhog Day.

[Craig]

Sent to Groundhog Day. Anyway, this is a book podcast where each week one of us reads a book and tells the other person about it. And we will not stop. Even if Phil curses us with 20 more weeks of winter, I'm still.

[Andrew]

That's. I think that's outside of his power. I don't think. I don't think they've extended his. His, his, his range in that way.

[Craig]

But, you know, who knows what happens to him? And this week, I read a book that I had never read before, though I had heard about it. I read the Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, and I'm here to talk about it. Andrew, you read Colson Whitehead on the show? Years ago.

[Andrew]

I did, back in 2018. For episode 311. Amber was the color of our energy. In that episode, I read the Underground Railroad, which was his, like, not far from his first book, but definitely the one that, like, blew up the most. Like, you want to pull Pulitzer Prize. And the one thing about the Nickel Boys is that he won his second Pulitzer Prize for fiction for this book. The book came out in 2019 after we had published our episode. I got a little bit of catch up on him from. Did you see the episode we did where you can go and listen to his bio stuff? But, yeah, the main stuff is just. He published this book then one called the Harlem Shuffle, which is not. I don't think about the dance craze.

[Craig]

No, that's different.

[Andrew]

That's the Harlem shake, right, in 2021. And then crook Manifesto, direct sequel to Harlem shuffle, released in 2023. That's what I got.

[Craig]

Did you see the list of people? Of course. It's dudes who have won the Pulitzer twice for fiction.

[Andrew]

No.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Did not.

[Craig]

Here's a list. Here's a list for you. It's four dudes. Colson Whitehead, John Updike, William Faulkner, and Booth Tarkington. Who's Booth talking exactly? A man from the, like, turn of the century. He won it twice in, like, the 1910s, I think, or like, maybe 1910s and then, like, 19, early 1920s.

[Andrew]

No. If there. If there had been, like, a season five of Dead Wood, it would have been about, like, Booth talking. A guy named Booth Tarkington coming into town and upsetting the order of things.

[Craig]

First, I'm gonna send you a photo of Booth Tarkington for you to look at. I don't know his politics or his life. I cannot vouch for Booth Tarkington. I just. Look at this man, Andrew. Look at him.

[Andrew]

Very serious looking man.

[Craig]

Very serious. And kudos to whoever looks like a.

[Andrew]

Version of Mr. Rogers who could really kick your butt if he wanted to.

[Craig]

Kudos to whichever distant relative of Newton Booth Tarkington is managing his Wikipedia page because they included a line. He is often cited as an example of an author who enjoyed great success when alive, but whose reputation and influence did not survive his death. No citations needed. A little bit tautological, but you do.

[Andrew]

Usually hear about the other way. But I mean, maybe we need to bring Booth Tarkington back.

[Craig]

Maybe, maybe we'll cover him on the show one day.

[Andrew]

We need to re examine his legacy.

[Craig]

We don't need to read any more. Faulkner, Tarkington only from here on out, only targeting.

[Andrew]

We're going to. We're going to look up literally any facts about this guy and find out that he was like the biggest race scientist, phrenology kind of guy who ever existed.

[Craig]

I have no idea.

[Andrew]

I don't know either. I just like, you can't, you can't just say, oh, we're going to get really into a guy from 1910 and then not have unpleasant surprises happen to you.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's fair. Well, you said you had some catch up to do, Andrew. I know this book is also based on some real history that may just like, kind of weave in and out of our episode, but what do we need to know before we dive in?

[Andrew]

So Whitehead says this book was, I believe, the immediate follow up to Underground Railroad. And Whitehead said in an interview to Vanity Fair that he, quote, didn't want to do another heavy book. Underground Railroad, if you'll remember, was about slavery. He says. That book, quote, took a lot from me. I didn't want to deal with such depressing material again. But then Trump was elected the first time, quote, I felt compelled to make sense of where we were as a country. You and me both, bud. So this book.

[Craig]

Well, this book is the first book just to say, like, the Underground Railroad is like, it's kind of an alternate history sort of thing. Like, it's still covering some of the same awfulness, but there's like a literal railroad. Right. And like.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask you, once we got into books, Haunted, there was any, like, slackness to the reality of this in the way that there was an underground railroad. But I feel like we're underground railroad.

[Craig]

It's easy to do bad.

[Andrew]

It's easy to do a bad read of that word. So this, this book was inspired by a place called the Dozier School for Boys, which was a reform school run by the state of Florida from the year nineteen twenty eleven. Ongoing allegations of abuse and sexual abuse and murder of students by staff dogged it the whole time. It was open it finally failed a state inspection in 2009, and then subsequent investigations confirmed many of those allegations that have been made. There were 55 burials discovered on the campus in 2012, nearly 100 documented deaths. Identification efforts for those remains are ongoing, and more graves have been discovered since then. Yay. Black and white students alike were, you know, died and were buried. But it's roughly three to one the ratio of black students to white students. It had been segregated for a long time before, like, the 60s. There had been a lot of, like, reorganizations and investigations and attempts at reform at the school before, like, most prominently in the late 60s when corporal punishment was banned. But, you know, none of those. None of those really stuck.

[Craig]

Nope.

[Andrew]

It's most infamous building. And I don't know if this comes up in the book or not, but it was called the White House 11 room building with cells that was used for, like, particularly badly behaved or violent students. And it's where many of the worst punishments were carried out. After the corporal punishment ban, it was used as a storage room for a while. And then in a ceremony in 2008, it was sealed. There's, like, a plaque there now. And this. This was following advocacy from the White House boys, a group of survivors who had come out with their stories. There are about 400 members in the group around. You know that in the 2000s, when all this. A lot of media coverage and stuff is happening around the school. Yep. Members who had been as young as 9 years old at the time said that they were whipped and sexually abused by guards. One said he received more than 250 lashes with a belt. Lashes which could leave your clothing embedded in your body.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Florida. The state of Florida did officially apologize to victims in 2017, and a bill to compensate victims and their families passed in 2024. That is the first good thing I've heard of the Florida legislature doing in a long time.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So Whitehead, again, in this Vanity Fair interview, said that he discovered all of this in 2014. And. Yeah, so there are two. Just to set the table for. I don't know, the episode. I was reading this, and it felt very relevant to the way that things, the way that we're feeling right now. But there are two main characters in the book, Elwood and Turner. And Whitehead is saying of these characters in this interview, Elwood and Turner represent two different parts of my personality. There is the optimistic or hopeful part of me in Elwood that believes we can make the world a better place if we keep working at it. Then there's the pessimistic side, the cynical side in Turner that says, no, this country is founded on genocide, murder and slavery and it will always be that way. That's our dilemma as human beings. How do we reconcile the hopeful with our pessimistic side? How do we reconcile disappointments with the small daily times that make up our lives? I don't know any more than anybody else. For the characters in the novel, there's the problem of how do you come back from a life changing catastrophe? Whitehead says, bouncing back from trauma, you borrow from a sense of hope, but also recognize what you've gone through and what you are up against.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's the book.

[Andrew]

So that's. Yeah, that's like the, the big stuff about the back. So. So my understanding is that the Dozier School for Boys is fictionalized into this like Nickel Academy or whatever it is that it's called in the book.

[Craig]

Yeah, the White House is very much a part of it. I think if you've listened to this intro, you can kind of tell what's going to happen in the book. But I will say that, like, I won't really have to go into any real like graphic discussion of some of the things that happen to kids in this fictionalized version of the school because the style of the book is pretty spare. Like a lot of that. It does happen, but it isn't a good gratuitous book. It's not a, you know, it is an appropriately grotesque book, but it is also, as Whitehead says in that same Vanity Fair article, it's a lot narrower in scope than something like the Underground Railroad. It's like a little over 200 pages. It's really confined to this perspectives of these two boys with like a few exceptions. And it is not to your earlier question, Andrew, really like presenting an alternate history or doing anything kind of like odd with reality. It takes place in the 60s. The, you know, the civil rights era is happening and there are. There's a guy in modern times who's remembering some of what's going on. Like it is not playing with history as much as it is just exploring it. So, yeah, that's the only other thing I'd add as folks are maybe coming to this episode. It was adapted into a film last year directed by Romel Ross, written by Joslyn Barnes. I don't know why the book is called the Nickel Boys and the film is called Nickel Boys. I don't know. If somebody knows and wants to tell me, please write in. I did not find an answer to that question.

[Andrew]

I sense I sense some social networking like going some, some executive came in and told him to lose the.

[Craig]

Oh no, it's. But no, that film has been pretty well received. I think it's Ross's first feature length fiction film. Like I think he has been a documentary maker up until now but it was nominated for some Oscars for whatever that's worth as well as some other awards across the board. So yeah, I was excited to get around to it because I, I was Railroad is one of those books that I would have also been happy to read. I was glad that we covered for the show and yeah, and it's just like it's, it was an interesting like premise with these two characters at the heart of the book. So yeah, sure. Okay, let's take a quick break and then I'll tell you about the nickel boys. Not we'll come Nickelback and then I'll tell you all about it.

[Andrew]

Greg, websites, you know them, you love, you love them. But do you know how to make one off the top of your head? Just if I put a blank text field in front of you and you had to make a website, could you do it?

[Craig]

This sounds like one of those dreams where I'm at school but I'm wearing weird pajamas. Like this is awful. I don't want to do this.

[Andrew]

Luckily for you, this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the website that helps you make websites. Has this ever happened to you? You needed a website for the big for the big assignment at work, but you don't know how to make one. Squarespace is there to help you get that assignment done and impress the boss and get that big promotion you've been angling for.

[Craig]

Oh, I would love this help on my website assignments.

[Andrew]

Yes, this is all. This is all kind of a fictional space that I'm creating for the purposes of the Squarespace ad. Squarespace is not promised that you'll get the big promotion, but the benefits of.

[Craig]

Squarespace are not fiction. They are real. Andrew, tell them.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

And I do need you to know that Booth Tarkington served one term in the Indiana House of Representatives, was critical of the advent of automobiles, and set many of his stories in the Midwest. I want to give this Wikipedia page a Pulitzer, like I do, kind of.

[Andrew]

That's interesting to me, though, because I think maybe he was right about these horseless carriages.

[Craig]

He may have been. It's just funny. Those are the three things you got.

[Andrew]

We need to bring him back. We need to. We need to figure out more about this 2025, the year of Booth Darkington. Write it down somewhere.

[Craig]

Okay. Book it.

[Andrew]

Find our notes.

[Craig]

Okay. Gonna write, just Booth, find our notes.

[Andrew]

Our notes from that last, like, meeting that we had where we talked about, like, programming the show and stuff.

[Craig]

Okay. Every month we're gonna cover one Booth Tarkington book.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like, I've got like two gaps in the May schedule right now. I'm just gonna write Booth Tarkington really big.

[Craig]

Great. Perfect. I love it.

[Andrew]

Booth Tarkington.

[Craig]

So this book, the Nickel Boys, is set alternately in like, the 2010s with this investigation into the now defunct Nickel Academy, where people have discovered secretly buried bodies of boys that went to this reform school. And in the 60s, with our main character, Elwood Curtis, at that reform school, Elwood is, you know, in living in New York city in the 2010s, reconnecting with his past a little bit. He's aware of this kind of, like, community of alumni who have found each other as, you know, the abuses are being talked about. And he is skeptical of, you know, joining this community. Like, it describes him sometimes, you know, googling this the school to see what news there might be. But now this investigation and this exhumation has really Kind of confronted him that this might not be a past he can, like, tamp down anymore. This is. There is a public version of this story that he has been running from in some way, shape, or form. Okay, and what. Here's this paragraph at the end of the prologue that tells you, in New York City, there lived a nickel boy who went by the name of Elwood Curtis. He'd do a web search on the old reform school now and then to see if there were any developments. But he stayed away from their unions and didn't add his name to the lists for many reasons. What was the point? Grown men. What, you take turns handing each other Kleenex? One of the others posted a story about the night he parked outside Spencer's house, watching the windows for hours. The silhouette figures inside. Until he talked himself out of revenge. He'd made his own leather strap to use on the superintendent. Elwood didn't get it. Go all that way. Might as well follow through. When they found the secret graveyard, he knew he'd have to return. The clutch of cedars over the TV reporter's shoulder brought back the heat on his skin, the screech of the dry flies. It wasn't far off at all. Never will be. It's a pretty good way to open your book of, like, okay, well, now we gotta go to this guy's past. We gotta.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Find out what he lived through and how. Whether or not he is willing to confront it.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Overall, I was really impressed with the structure and what Whitehead's able to pull off, like, narratively with this book. As you said, there's the two main characters, Elwood and Turner. It's mostly Elwood's book, especially because you're getting these brief glimpses into the present day. And I think there's.

[Andrew]

The frame persists through the. Through the book. It's not just the thing that pops up at the beginning and the end.

[Craig]

It's beginning in the end. And then there are one or. They're like maybe three or four chapters that dip into his life in New York City. I think one of them may be, like, in the 80s. I could be misremembering. And those come a little bit later in the book. You, like, get this initial setup, and then you go several chapters just with young Elwood going. Living his life before going. Getting sent to Nickel. A few chapters of him at Nickel. And then you get your first, like, jump forward. And by the time I got there, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that, that. Remember the. This book is set in the Present day, in a way. You know, it's not just. I didn't just pick up a historical fiction novel where I Never think about the 2010s and then once he's brought you back there, it'll be every like third or fourth chapter that you revisit Present day. Okay. It's an interesting pacing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I guess we can. We can talk about like the arc of present day Elwood.

[Craig]

Yeah, I don't.

[Andrew]

I don't know if you want to talk about that separately from the arc of like, young Elwood or if it's. If it's best to over chronologically or.

[Craig]

No, that you can kind of COVID that one pretty quickly. Modern day Elwood is not interested in, you know, the metaphorical exhuming of these bodies. Right. And now he has been confronted with. With it literally. And as that passage tells you, like, he. He doesn't know what he's going to do now. He's going to have to go down there. They'll probably be some sort of public press thing that he would want to add his story to. And when you finally meet him again, I think it's. I think it's not long after he's moved up. He's like working for a moving company. He's getting ready to start his own moving company. He's got a woman in his life, but it's clear he is like, not ready to take a real step with her. But he does like living up in New York City. There's kind of a. Despite the, you know, the racism he's still going to experience as a black man. It is different. And he is safer than he was living in the South. Sure. And so his arc, in so much as there is, you know, a real arc that gets explored, it's mostly, I think, about where the book leaves him. And I'll try to cordon off specific remarks on or feelings about the end of the book because it's worth discussing on its own.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

But he is somebody who by the end of the book realizes he's going to need to like, step out of anonymity, lean in and tell his story and be a part of history and the rest of the book, when you see him, he is somebody who is avoiding that. Like there's a. A scene with him and another nickel boy. They're adults. It's like, funny. They, like, meet. They meet each other in a crowd after a New York marathon and go out for a drink and it's clear that they don't remember, like, the other guy. Doesn't remember him as well as he remembers the other guy.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right.

[Craig]

And they kind of, you know, are drawn a little bit about the past. And that guy was clearly in and out of jail and in and out of treatment. And the main thing Elwood takes away from their interaction is that no one seems to really remember him, which he thinks he. He says in his, like, narrator voice, he's surprised that, like, his story of getting out did not, like, linger or get told because he did get out.

[Andrew]

Right. But it's not, you know, people don't. People didn't sit around the campfire and tell tales of the. Of the one who escaped.

[Craig]

Yes. And really. And that, I believe that comes just before or just after a past chapter where Elwood breaks down, like, the five ways that you get out. And it's like you serve your time. Some sort of, like, legal miracle, you die.

[Andrew]

Sure, that'd do it.

[Craig]

There's another. You escape. And then the fifth way, which is what, you know, the arc of the plot of the book is working towards, is like, well, what if you could take nickel down? Like, what if that was possible? And you get those five ways? And then there's this discussion of, like. And nobody really talks about what happened to Elwood. And Elwood seems both comfortable with and annoyed at that, like, status quo. And you don't know what that means when you. When you hear. You don't, obviously, like, this chapter, the time jumping means he can tell you that Elwood feels that way without having told you how Elwood got away. Right. So then you're, of course, like, you know, eager to find out what happened.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's a little. It's interesting to just juxtapose him being, like, slightly, I don't know, annoyed about not being remembered with, like, his desire up until now to hold all of this kind of at arm's length and not really be involved in any of the, like, the efforts to remember to do anything about it.

[Craig]

Yeah, it doesn't feel. It feels like a very believable human who would feel that way. It doesn't feel like this person is some sort of hypocrite. It's like, no, of course he would be slighted that his accomplishment is not remembered or whatever. And also he is the same person who's going to keep all this pain at an arm's length. And so, yeah, that's his kind of deal. And the rest of the book is set in the 60s, which is this interesting. The civil rights. The fight for civil rights is, like, active in A. In a way that you think about the civil rights era as, you know, bracketed with newspaper articles and, you know, footage, etc. Etc. Everything from. Elwood is living with his grandmother as a boy. His parents just left. You get like, one passage about how his mom was just completely uninterested in being a mother. And the man that she had Elwood with was, I think, as his grandmother describes him, small. Just as a small person, like, morally. And they just leave. And his grandmother is responsible for him. The only entertainment that they really have in their house is A Record of Dr. Martin Luther King that he plays and listens to all the time.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And it kind of informs his, like, we can make the world better. We can lift each other up and lift the world up. He does struggle with that over the course of the book, but it's a big, like, core of his personality and his moral compass. That's like.

[Andrew]

That's an interesting. I'm gonna.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

This will. This will feel a little tangenty, but, like, the heaviness of the episode means that we're gonna have to. We have. We need it.

[Craig]

Please.

[Andrew]

But it is interesting if you like, growing up in the age of physical media and if you didn't have a lot of money, how, like, mostly obscure things that you just happen to get become, like, outsize parts of your media consumption and your memories of that era, even if people generally don't know what you're talking about. I'm thinking about. We owned both the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Super Nintendo Fighting game.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

Which is pretty okay.

[Craig]

Yeah. But it's not like. But it's not regarded.

[Andrew]

It's. Yeah. And then also the Nickelodeon, Ah, Real Monsters video game.

[Craig]

Whichever.

[Andrew]

Even at the time, I don't think was very good, but it was one of the, like, 14 Super Nintendo games that we own. So it did get some. It did get some play.

[Craig]

Yeah. I don't know that I grew up with anyone who could quote the movie Speed as well as me and my family. We had it on VHS and it was on all the time. Gum. I got gum on my seat. Gum.

[Andrew]

I don't.

[Craig]

Sandy Bullock says, like, I don't know.

[Andrew]

What you're talking about.

[Craig]

She says that when she wants to get away from Cameron, from Ferris Bueller, who's being weird to her on a bus. This is before. We all know there's a bomb on a bus, which is Die Hard on a Bus. That's Speed. But, yeah, it's Pop Quiz. It's a good movie, but I don't know that I've. I don't think I was like, hey, Andrew, you're my new friend at college. I need you to see.

[Andrew]

I need you to. I need you to watch Speed. This is very important part of my personality. Just call me Mr. Speed.

[Craig]

But, yes, he is kind of defined by really only having this in his house. He will occasionally, at his, like, cousin's house, Elwood, like, see commercials for a. For a. Like, an amusement park, Fun Town.

[Andrew]

And see, that's a very, like, oh, we'll think of a better name later kind of name for an amusement park.

[Craig]

And all the commercials are like, you know, smiling white kids at Fun Town. And he's like, listen, the world's gonna get better. I will get to go to Funtown one day. Like, that's the kind of kid that Elwood is as a black boy living in Florida, listening to the words of Dr. King, thinking that the moral arc of the universe doesn't, in fact, bend toward justice and that he can be a part of it really. There is a really good line from his grandma where she hears the news about Brown v. Board on the radio and, like, celebrates and then catches herself and says, like, oh, but Jim Crow doesn't go away that easy. He's gonna need to be like, that's not in his nature. You need to fight. You need to fight him. Like, she's. Like, she won't. Jim Crow ain't gonna just slink off his wicked self. She says, right. And so Elwood is just a good kid trying to live his life. When he meets Turner later, I will go back to how he winds up at Nickel. But Turner's whole deal is that he is described as having an eerie sense of self. And the simile that Whitehead uses, you know, when he's describing how he feels whenever, everywhere he is, he feels like he's always been there. Like a log fallen over a creek. Like, you did. Like, you didn't know how it got there, but by the time you see it, it's just part of the landscape.

[Andrew]

Yes, right.

[Craig]

And he has this kind of, like, unflappable cynicism at this school where all the boys are constantly, you know, subjected to corporal punishment or worse.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

And it's segregated. And he knows what a raw deal all the black boys have relative to the white boys. And he's still just like, listen, man, if I need to eat some soap powder so that I vomit and get sent to the. You know, to the medical wing for a few days because I don't want to do my work. Like, that's just what I'm gonna do. Right. And his viewpoint is also informed by the fact that this is his second time at Nickel, so he. I don't think we ever learned what he did the first time, but he is back in there and it says that he did not. He learned that folks outside are just as bad inside. When his first time there, he was like, oh, this place is depraved. I can't wait to be out.

[Andrew]

And then he gets out and then ends up being also bad.

[Craig]

Yeah. And so he. So that's. That's Turner's worldview, which is a very like, well, what would we. Why would we try to fix things? You know, we just have to. At best, we can survive. And I'm gonna, like, do whatever I can to do that.

[Andrew]

So how is the book balancing giving you, like, one. Does the perspective bounce between these boys? Or are you just. Are you just in the perspective of one of them the whole time? And then also, how is it balancing, like, describing the boys and their personalities and their own situations and any. Like. I don't know. I don't know if there's like a holes. Esque cast of characters that we get to get to know.

[Craig]

That's a good way to phrase it.

[Andrew]

And then, like, how does it go about describing the setting?

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

You know, telling us about what the school is about and what. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

It's largely Elwood's book. There's like a. There's a big chapter in the middle about the. A big boxing match. And most of that is from Turner's perspective. But even as you read it, you could kind of interpret it as. Elwood heard all of that from Turner. Like, it's not. That's not the way that the book is explicitly written, but that's kind of the vibe that, like, Turner told this to everybody. So it's mostly Elwood. And so Turner comes in as this, like, boy he meets while he's there, which kind of, like, changes his. Not changes his perspective totally, but kind of challenges him a little bit. But also they become friends really quickly before you get to nickel. And I think what is interesting, Whitehead talking about this book being shorter than other work he had done up until this point. You could imagine a much longer book just about the stuff before he gets to nickel.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

I think I told you before we started recording this book, the focus on a terrible institution reminded me of both Sing Unburied Sing by Desmond Ward and Heaven and Earth Grocery store by James McBride. Both of which I read in, like, the last year or two for the show. And there is, like, something interesting, I think, about this approach to particularly these issues of violence and racial violence in America via the state and via state institutions. Because it, like, it prevents you from reducing it to a single person's, like, will. Like, there is a bad guy who runs Nickel Academy. His name is Mr. Spencer. He stinks. He's awful. He's terrible, sure. But, like, he's not the guy who founded the place. The place will go on beyond him. It's understood.

[Andrew]

And just kind of taking his place in this system and carrying it out.

[Craig]

And that these places kind of create the opportunity for, quote, unquote, good to exist. So, like, this is when Elwood first gets there. He sees it. It's like, it's not a prison. It's like a campus with buildings and trees and people walking around in fields. But the worst parts of it are hidden because, as you alluded to, like, this book takes place in the 60s, and probably it had just had an inspection where they were like, you can't do solitary confinement anymore. Well, that just means they move it into a building that doesn't get inspected as much, you know? Yeah. So just the, like, books that are engaging with the history of evil institutions are just kind of hitting me at the moment, let's say. But yeah, the beginning of the book, that's weird. Which moves kind of quickly, is Elwood, you know, living with his grandmother. There's this cool, like, very effective opening short story where he's, like, a little kid in the hotel where she works, and he plays these games with the people who work in the kitchen, like, challenging them to a dishwashing race. And they all think he's really charming. And then new staff come in and they realize that this little kid will just, like, do stuff if you make it a game. And even as, like, a teenager, he's still doing it. And so they bet him a big box of encyclopedias if he if on a dishwashing challenge, which he wins, and they give it to him. And only the first volume is real, and the rest are fake and blank pages, which has this, like, okay, will he continue to be the person he is in the face of the knowledge that, like, people are cruel and people are shallow and petty and will trick you for no reason, seemingly. And then also, Whitehead is like, well, I gave this kid this encyclopedia that goes to, like, a N. And so now whenever he needs to drop, like, a specific cultural reference, like, he's got these amazing, like, that's what he's pulling from. He's like.

[Andrew]

It's exclusively from, like, the first part of the first letter of the Alphabet.

[Craig]

Yeah. Like, Greek philosophers and stuff. It's really clever. And then he, you know, gets a job after school at the local, like, tobacco shop run by this Italian guy. And he gets a. He has a teacher in his. In his high school who is working in the civil rights movement and finds out that this college is doing classes for smart kids and is like, hey, Elwood, you should be in these. And on his way to his first class, he hitchhikes. And the guy driving the car is a black guy. And he's like, well, that's interesting. I don't know a lot of black folks around here who would drive on this road. And, of course, the car was stolen, and they get picked up and Elwood gets sent off to nickel.

[Andrew]

Oops.

[Craig]

Oops. So there's just a wrong place, wrong time, now your life is forever changed sort of situation. And so, yeah, there is a kind of the. The thing I was struck by is it's a year of. Doesn't do, like, a really strict. And this is this part of the school year, and this is this part of the school year. But it does have the rhythms of. And now you're gonna follow a year at this place or, like, most of a school year at this place. So there's the, like, introduction to the school where he learns how things work. There are this big, like, boxing match tradition that we'll dive into. There is Christmas, where the. The main part of the Christmas interlude is that one of the kids decides to poison someone on staff. And will they get caught and will the man die? And, you know, these questions.

[Andrew]

More fun present for everybody.

[Craig]

Yep. And then it allows Whitehead to kind of jump forward in time in a way that's believable and also create little kind of narrative. Just really good at kind of episodic storytelling where he can just, like, close a chapter, have it be the end of that whole scene, and then just jump ahead a few weeks or whatever he needs to do without it needing to feel like it's a propulsive, like, cliffhanger story, something like that. So I really liked that it was, like, had the rhythms of a school year to it. The cast of characters is interesting. It's. I think you would get chapters on each of these people if it were a different book, if you were interested in really, you know, writing another big, sprawling thing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because you could. You could see a version of it that would. That would choose different perspectives to explore different individual aspects of the. Of the school. But I don't know how, like, he doesn't do that into specific, like, aspects of the school it's trying to dig or if it's just like, broadly this. This place is bad and the systems that make it possible are bad.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's that. And he's really economic about how he tells you about the. Both the bad and the good people who are there. So, like, one of the other boys that they spend time with is this kid Jamie. He is not white. He is not black. He is. I believe, he's Mexican. And they shuttle him between both sides of the campus as the staff feel is bigotedly appropriate. Like, and he's just kind of made his peace with it because what else is he supposed to do, right? But he's the kid who is involved in the poisoning debacle, and they have a couple other boys that they're hanging out with. But it's not a large cast of, like, here is this crew that. That Elwood and Turner are running, and they each.

[Andrew]

And they each have, like, one or two personality traits that make them distinct. It's not doing that.

[Craig]

No, no, no, no. In fact, that is a.

[Andrew]

That's a kind of. Whether you're talking about like a. Like a prison movie slash book or like, like a cuckoo's nest, kind of just like, here's a bunch of people in this institution. You know, like, it's a common way to. To do it is to here. Here are all the inmates, and here's what's gonna.

[Craig]

You know, it's much.

[Andrew]

Here's how you're gonna experience this space.

[Craig]

When you talk about it that way, it's actually much more focused on a. A similarly scoped roster of the people who work there. So there's like, when. Within the first week of him being there, it might even be the second or third day. Elwood, who has, like, learned, like, oh, I don't. This is not a real school. This kind of stinks. So all the learning I'm gonna have to do myself. But there is, like, a quote, unquote merit system that if I follow the rules and just try to be a good person, clearly I will, you know, rise up these. These tears, and then I will get out of here for good behavior. He sees some boys jumping another boy in the bathroom, and he decides to intervene. And he gets picked up by a white worker being like, what are all these boys doing fighting? And they all get taken to the White House that night. And you get. When you get taken to the White House, it happens in the middle of the night. The Superintendent Spencer is there, as well as at least one other staff member. And it is corporal punishment. You are, like, tied up and whipped. And it's awful. There is a. Like, an industrial fan that they turn on that can. Like, it drowns out the noise inside. But now everybody on campus can hear that the industrial fan is on, and they all know what it means. That happens right away. Then you get put in the. Like, he goes to the medical wing for a few weeks where he and Turner start to become buds because Turner's dropping by to visit him. And you get like, the doctor stinks because his answer for everything is aspirin. Like, you could not. Your head could have been, like, chopped off. And he's like, hey, do you want tablets? See you later. Like, that's the. The cruelty of neglect. Right? In the boxing chapter, there's, like, a little short story about the ref who's officiating the match. I'll read it to you. The opening fight went three unremarkable rounds. The ref who managed the floor of the printing plant in the daytime gave the decision to Big Chet. More on Big Chet a second.

[Andrew]

Big Chat is exactly the kind of character I want to meet in this.

[Craig]

Kind of book, though, gave the decision to Big Chat, and no one argued otherwise. He was regarded as an even personality. The reference ever since he slapped a kid and his fraternity ring left the kid half blind. After that, he bent a knee to our savior and never again raised a hand in anger except at his wife. And that's, like, all you, like. Whitehead does stuff like that throughout the book where he's like, here's two sentences that gesture towards a character type, but in a way that's really specific and memorable. And I could have given you seven paragraphs on him, and I'm giving you three sentences. Sentences.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

He does. He does. He must have challenged if he didn't challenge himself to do that. He's very good at it because it's like most of the book, like Big Chat, the. The boxing match in the middle of the book is there's always a champion from the black students and a champion from the white students. And it's this big tradition that Mr. Nicholl set up after he got his job running the school by impressing other clan leaders.

[Andrew]

Right?

[Craig]

And what. Okay, two, two in a row here. Griff sparred with Cherry, a mulatto who took up boxing as a matter of pedagogy to Teach others how not to speak about his white mother. The likely white contender was a boy named Big Chet, who came from a clan of swamp people and was a bit of a creature. A bit of a creature.

[Andrew]

You can't just dangle Big Chet in front of me and have that be all I get.

[Craig]

Whitehead's so good at that. And so you get, like, the other staff member, I think, who's important you don't spend a lot of time with is a guy named Harper. What Turner and Elwood wind up doing for the bulk of the book is they get put on what is called community service.

[Andrew]

Okay?

[Craig]

Where they get to go off campus with this guy Harper, who drives a community service van. White guy. And they get taken all over the town around the academy. And they do two things. They sell goods and supplies that were supposed to be sent to the school. Like, black market sales of, you know, state supplied food to restaurants and stores in Eleanor for kickbacks. Or they do odds and ends, like painting of fences and cleaning of basements and things for members of the school board. It's all bad. It's not a thing that anybody would tell you is actually happening. It is part of the system of, like, grift that keeps the school running. And it is kind of like. It is emblematic of the difference between Turner and Elwood in that Elwood sees this as, like, I think this is wrong and I'm going to start taking notes on all of it. And Turner's like, listen, man, we're outside. We're not. They're not making us work in a field. They're not making us do manual labor on campus. What do you want? They might feed us better food out here. They might give us, like, let us relax and have some lemonade. While Harper, the white guy driving the van, who doesn't have much of a personality other than he's chilling and may or may not be, you know, having an affair with someone. So he disappears sometimes while they're working.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

He comes back at the end, but, like, that's Turner's. Like, this is fine. Don't mess this up. Like, what are we doing here? And so, like, it's not a. You're right. It is not this. Like, let's sketch out this whole community one character at a time. You do get the black boy, Griff, who is the boxing champion. He's a focus of that chapter where he is given the opportunity to take a dive. He is told to take a dive and have a white boy win for the first time in 15 years.

[Andrew]

Given the opportunity to take a dive is a strange way to put that. I'm glad you got yourself.

[Craig]

He has been told to let Big Chat win by the head of the school. It becomes clear to you that members of the school board, all of them are white, have been betting on the outcome of the boxing match and would definitely love to win big. It has also been communicated DraftKings. I. My. My Kindle notes say FanDuel.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

Griffin is not good at math, you know, barely understands the concepts, and he loves getting punched in the head. So during the match, when he wins by ref decision and realizes how mad he has made, everyone and all the black boys thought, well, they told him to take a dive and he didn't go. Griff. Griff is seen crying. I thought it was the second round. And we don't see Griff again. It's really awful. So those are the types of stories like you could. Again, you could imagine this book being like, much. Not, not stuffier, but just stuffed with other versions of these types of tales. And it's much more focused. The only other thing about Nickel that I haven't mentioned, Andrew, as, like, how do they paint this place? They make a lot of mention of the school's printing press. And it's like brick factory. It makes like 20,000 bricks a day. And the printing press does all the printing for the government of Florida, like tax documents, like when they're printing legislation on paper. So I'm sure there's like, you know, at scale, whatever, right?

[Andrew]

It's. Yeah, I feel like it's really. It's really good that these, that these young boys are learning, learning a skill and that their labor's not being exploited or I'm sure they're being compensated well for, you know, for the value that they're creating for sure.

[Craig]

Oh, not at all. And this. And it's not like this arrangement creates any sort of, like, reason to gloss over bad results of inspections or to allow nefarious things to continue to happen. So Elwood cooks up this scheme, and this will bring us to the end of the book, I think.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Elwood cooks up this scheme to expose, you know, being the person that he is, he can't really go along to get along. He thinks he has to bring this place down. Like, that's the only way he's going to get out of here. He's sentenced to two years, but if he doesn't get out of here before then, like, he doesn't foresee the adult life that he had, you know, in front of him being possible.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Yeah. Also, he. The other thing this book talks about is kind of the shame of experiencing this. He does get visited by his grandmother a few times, and especially the first time after he was whipped. He is so ashamed of what he experienced, he doesn't tell her because he can't bring himself to do it. So the book does acknowledge that, like. Like that is another powerful force, like, keeping this silent. But he thinks, okay, I can expose the grift and corruption here. I've written down every single thing that, you know, I've sold to stores that belongs to the state of Florida that they have made us do in the name of, like, you know, greasing palms and things like that. And he is sent it to newspapers and received no, no response. So his only chance is to put it in the hands of a state inspector. There's a state inspector coming, a few of them this spring. He's going to, like, slip it to them somehow. He doesn't really know how.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

He doesn't really get a chance. Turner, who thinks this is a terrible idea, decides to do it for him. Puts it in a newspaper and, like, the school newspaper and runs that out to a guy and is like, hey, you want one of our newspapers? I bet you do. And then they don't know what's going to happen. Within a day, Elwood is, you know, taken out to the White House again and kept there or kept actually in another solitary confinement spot while the administration waits to find out how bad it's going to get from the state if they've been exposed and how and how bad. Etc, Etc. Turner busts in and is like, hey, they're gonna kill you. They're going to take you out back. Which is the, you know, the nomenclature that they use.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And he helps. He helps Elwood get away. And it's this kind of like, what did. I guess you feel bad about the fact that you did deliver the thing. And then he get. He got caught. Even though Turner, like, really thought this was a terrible idea. So that's the part of the book that, like, I think people should read this book. It's pretty good. It's more than pretty good. And reading it for Whitehead's prose alone, I think is worth the difficult subject matter. And I think the difficult subject matter is also worth reading.

[Andrew]

Yeah, sure.

[Craig]

I don't want to spoil the ending for people who think they might read the book, but I do need to spoil the ending to convey my experience of reading the book and how and why I think it's so good.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And what's good about it, like, worth.

[Andrew]

Reading despite it being kind of difficult? Especially. Especially now.

[Craig]

Yeah. And I. I honestly think too, like, as I said towards the top, it is about awful things, but it. That those awful things are not what dominate the page. You know, the implications of them and the emotional lives of the people living through them are. But you're not reading page after page of, like, awful. You know, it's not like watching 12 Years a Slave where, like, that is, like, the point of the movie, Right?

[Andrew]

Sure, sure.

[Craig]

So they are escaping, the two of them, Elwood and Turner, and they make it a few days, I think. A few days. They're on bikes at one point, and they see a nickel van coming up behind. Again, we are beyond the spoiler tag. Just reminding people we are. We have read the chapter already now about how Elwood lives in New York City, and you're like. And he's confused why people don't talk about his escape. Elwood and Turner have to run into the fields because the nickel van has come up behind them. Lo and behold, it is the community service van with the guy they thought was cool who is now wielding a shotgun along with another guy who works for the administration. And they open fire, which as soon as that. It's one of those books where, like, I have to stop and make a note for the podcast, like, as a thing is happening. And so, like, I have a note that just says, oh, my God, they're shooting guns. And then, like, literally three sentences later, Elwood gets shot and falls, and Turner keeps running and it ends. And you're like, what just happened? Excuse me? And we get to the epilogue and you learn, what do you think it is?

[Andrew]

Andrew is Turner Elwood and has, like, taken his identity or something.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And has escaped north in the 70s. Like, went back down to Florida and got Elwood's birth certificate and just been using it to build a life for himself in New York City. And it makes you feel a bunch of things about him. Like, he has. He has a. Like, a wife now, who he's been lying to about who he is. He has been lying to other nickel boys when he has encountered them about who he is. He has been, quote, unquote, honoring his friend, but he hasn't been, like, honoring the friend, like, the version of a person that his friend was hoping to become. Right. He's just like, he's a guy who's trying to live his life, and you don't want to hold that against him. But he's doing it under his, you know, dead friend's assumed name. I did have to read it a few times to be like, okay. He did not orchestrate them escaping together so that he had a. Like a security, like a person to leave.

[Andrew]

He did. He didn't do this on purpose. He just saw the opportunity and grabbed it.

[Craig]

He saw his friend who was going to die and tried to save him. I did have to, like, dissuade myself from thinking that ill of. Of Turner. Sure. And he now, as the bodies are being exhumed, realizes he is forced, or could be forced to tell this true story of. Of what has happened. So he decides to tell his wife first. Woof.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I bet that doesn't go great.

[Craig]

She's. She is like oak. The book does not show it Breaking Bad. It show. At most, it shows her being like, well, this explains literally everything about him. And I do love the person that I spend my day to day with. And so I need to, like, think about what I'm gonna do with that information.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

And it ends with him, you know, realizing that he needs to engage with this. He's gonna have to fly down to Florida and, like, speak publicly about this. He talks about the nickel boys. He says he'd kept tabs on them through their website the last couple of years. The reunions, the stories of their life at the school. And after their attempts to be recognized, they wanted a memorial and an apology from the state. They wanted to be heard. He'd thought them pathetic, moaning about what happened 40, 50 years ago, but recognized it was his own pitiable state that revolted him. How scared he got seeing the name of the place and the pictures. I really need to say, I'd like. There's a version of this episode where I'd be like, and then just wait for the ending. All right, see you later. Like, let's not talk about it. I'm really impressed because I did not even consider that this is a thing the book would do.

[Andrew]

Like, yeah, it definitely. Yeah. And I feel. And even, you know, I didn't go into. I did not read, like, the full plot synopsis or anything, because I didn't, you know, I was doing, like, the background research was about. It was all about the school and whatever, whatever. And. And it's not like, when people talk about the movie the six the Sixth Sense, I think what kind of defines it is the. The twist at the end. And in a lot of. In a lot of ways. But I. This one, I did not know that. It was just Gonna do, like, a little bait and switch at the end. And I don't feel like it needs to do that to, like, get its point across, but it is an interesting choice to make, I think.

[Craig]

Yes. I also think that the Sixth Sense on Rewatch is also a very interesting movie, and you. You could approach that story without the twist and still get a lot of interesting stuff.

[Andrew]

Oh, right. But if you're doing, like, the. You know, if you're telling somebody what the six Sixth Sense is in three.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

Somebody tells you to describe it in three sentences, you're probably gonna do like, I see dead people.

[Craig]

Well, and I might do that with this book. Right. Like, there were a few people in our Discord who were like, wow, the end is really, like, really impactful and kind of, you know, wow. I didn't know that that was gonna happen. But, yeah, it does not. This is not a book that I was reading going, like, and then what's really gonna be happening? Like, I was never.

[Andrew]

What's the mystery?

[Craig]

You know, I was reminded I read a book years ago for the show Mountains, I think it was called that had a similar, like, narrator reveal that was pretty powerful. I think this one hit me a little harder just by the nature, you know, they were both very powerful stories. But, like, I think this one just got me because I was even more surprised at what it was doing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

And it wasn't as explicitly a book about identity, which across 100 mountains is. And it just feels like it makes you just think about the fact that he doesn't give you. He doesn't give you equal weight. In the novel of present and past, Elwood means that you are left at the end of the book thinking a lot more about the type of person who made this decision. And you don't have as much book to go on to, like, fill that in. And so you're like, well, why did he do that? How did he do that? How did he feel while he was doing it? Like, there's just a lot of investment you make in Turner in that moment that I hadn't made up until that moment. So.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Okay. Yeah, it's pretty good book. I think people would get a lot out of it. I don't know. You know, enjoy. Maybe not the right word. Like, maybe not the right word.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

Becca.

[Andrew]

No, go ahead, Becca.

[Craig]

And our Discord say, said it made her quote, full on SOB on the subway. Not sure if she can handle the movie. Kristen said, this is a heartbreaking read. Knowing what has happened to humans and what is happening now here in the year 2025. One of the things that stood out is, I'll call them casual metaphors. Kristen says, like the book on volcanoes roiling under the surface that Elwood is reading in his post White House hospital stay. And yeah, again, all of the little literary devices that White House that Whitehead is able to use very succinctly and concisely kind of make it a good read.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, yeah, just. I just like reading what Whitehead was saying about, you know, the, the first Trump election being kind of a catalyst to make him do this book. Like, I feel like the reaction to that, that first presidency from a lot of people who are making art was to be like, let's, you know, let's explore the. How this is and is not, like, consistent with history. And yes, that happened and are happening. And if, you know, if we, by shining more light on these, these things, we can, we can educate people and kind of, kind of try and make sure that this doesn't happen again and that, you know, people take the right lessons from it. And, and now, like, seeing so much of the second, like, the actions of the, of the second administration are like, attacking that stuff specifically and trying to create, like, a chilling effect on that kind of speech and that kind of art specifically. I just, you know, I just don't, I don't know what the. I don't know how this is going to be different in terms of, like, the art that is getting made in response to it and, and like, the, the, the, the appetite for that kind of art among, you know, among readers, among people who are just trying to, like, tune things out and put their heads down and their lives. I don't know. It's all, It's. I don't have a. I don't have a point.

[Craig]

No, it's a. I get your question, though.

[Andrew]

And yeah, it's not. I don't even know if it's a. It's a question really. It's just like, you know, I read about his motivations and then, you know.

[Craig]

Know, the other thing that I think.

[Andrew]

And it's just, it's just different.

[Craig]

This time is part of his motivations, too. I don't remember. I don't think this is his words. I read that same Vanity Fair article. I think it's the reporter's words. But is also says that he heard about the Dozier School in 2014. Like, that's when the story really, like, crossed his, you know, his attention. And that, as the article writer points out, what is the Author of that article, Yad in Israel points out, like, that's the same year as Eric Garner and Michael Brown and Tamir Rice. And so there is this very real, you know, cycle of ongoing but high profile news stories about state sponsored violence. And that is what this book is about. When it's not about like two boys who become friends despite, you know, the world being terrible.

[Andrew]

Yeah, sure.

[Craig]

So that's the Nickel Boys. Not Nickel Boys. A film that you can go watch now as well. I don't know how, how and if they're different. I'm looking forward to seeing the film when I, When I can. That. That is not like when you.

[Andrew]

Yeah, when you, when you can handle.

[Craig]

A little bit of. When I can handle it. And a little bit of I have a two year old and it makes it hard to watch movies is really.

[Andrew]

I mean, that's fair.

[Craig]

That's what it is. Andrew, thanks for letting me tell you about this. This book.

[Andrew]

I've been there for some of the movies that you've seen. Well, that's like years though.

[Craig]

And I just, there's a compartmentalizing that has to happen with the limited amount of movies I can watch. And like, sometimes it needs to be Shark Tale and sometimes it needs to be Shrek3. And then sometimes I get to like make myself watch Close Encounters or something. But like I. Garfield.

[Andrew]

Well, or Sonic the Hedgehog.

[Craig]

Those were for work.

[Andrew]

That. That's true. That was for. That was for work.

[Craig]

If you've read this book and want to share your thoughts with us, Send an email overdue pod gmail.com or hit us up on social media at Overdue Pod. Thanks to Alan, Stephanie, Holly, Cara, Rebecca, Jeffrey, Maria and more for reaching out in the past week. Our theme song is composed by Nick Lauren. Just Andrew. If folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is the Internet website. We've got the books that we have read and the ones we are going to read. Craig, did you read our February schedule last week?

[Craig]

I may have, but I'll do it again.

[Andrew]

I just, I'll at least say, you know, it's relevant that Punxsutawney Phyllis cursed us with another six weeks of winter. Because I am reading next week in the Midst of Winter by Isabel Allende.

[Craig]

Oh, sure. I'll be reading the Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett after that.

[Andrew]

And we're both reading the Invasion Animorphs Number one by KA Applegate.

[Craig]

What a way to close the month. Can't wait.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we're just, you know, just. It's a time for observing what things turn in, are turning into, if you think about it. Really.

[Craig]

Yeah, of course. That's what. That's what we're talking about.

[Andrew]

Patreon.com overdue pods where you can support the show and get access to our newsletter. Dusty Bookshelves. Got a new episode hot off the presses for you this morning. And bonus episodes. Discord, Community, all kinds of other things. Patreon.com overdpod that's it, Andrew, thanks again.

[Craig]

For another week of podcasting. Thanks, everyone at home, for listening. Get us out of here.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Stay strong, stay safe, everybody. And until we see you next week, please try to be happy.