Ep 711 - Upright Women Wanted, by Sarah Gailey

Summary

Overdue Podcast Summary: Episode 711 - Upright Women Wanted by Sarah Gailey

Podcast Information:

• Title: Overdue
• Hosts: Andrew and Craig
• Episode: 711 - Upright Women Wanted by Sarah Gailey
• Release Date: July 14, 2025
• Description: Overdue is a podcast dedicated to exploring the books you've been meaning to read. Each week, hosts Andrew and Craig delve into a new title from their reading backlog, covering a diverse range of genres from classic literature to obscure plays and quirky children's books.

---

1. Introduction (00:02 – 01:30)

The episode begins with Andrew and Craig welcoming listeners to Overdue, emphasizing their commitment to the joy of discovery in storytelling. They introduce the week's book, Upright Women Wanted by Sarah Gailey, characterizing it as a Western set in a post-apocalyptic future.

Notable Quote:

• Andrew [01:30]: "It's called Upright Women Wanted. It's by Sarah Gailey."

---

2. Author Background and Context (03:03 – 06:33)

Andrew and Craig delve into Sarah Gailey's background, highlighting Gailey's extensive work in both fiction and non-fiction. They discuss Gailey's early influences, including reading materials like Goosebumps and Fear Street, and their brief stint studying theater. The hosts touch upon Gailey's transition from theater to writing, inspired by a friend's feedback.

Notable Quotes:

• Craig [04:03]: "Gailey grew up reading stuff like Goosebumps and Fear Street Shout Out Jovial Bob Nice, as well as works by Clive Barker."
• Andrew [06:12]: "I think they are like, the more you tell me I can't do it, the more I'm going to work harder at it."

---

3. Book Overview and Plot Summary (07:00 – 38:01)

Andrew provides a comprehensive overview of Upright Women Wanted, describing it as a novella set in a speculative future United States. The world-building is centered around a fragmented nation with reduced governmental services, leading to the emergence of the Pack Horse Library Project-inspired librarians who distribute approved materials via horseback in rural areas.

Key Points:

• Setting: A dystopian future where the U.S. government restricts access to information, leading to societal control.
• Main Characters:
  • Esther: Protagonist escaping an arranged marriage and mourning a lost romantic relationship.
  • Leda and Bet: Librarians who are romantically involved and part of the rebellion.
  • Sai: An apprentice librarian.
  • Amity: A rebellious woman associated with the insurrection.

Plot Highlights:

• Esther stows away on a librarian's wagon, fleeing societal expectations and a tragic past.
• The librarians, while distributing approved materials, secretly disseminate contraband literature to foster rebellion.
• Encounter with a posse led by a sheriff reveals deeper conflicts and Amity's role in the insurrection.
• The narrative emphasizes the intertwining of queer identities with the rebellion against an oppressive regime.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew [12:02]: "They are out here in the desert where nobody can see. They're using different pronouns and they're having same-sex relationships."
• Craig [24:25]: "It's more about just control."

---

4. Themes and Analysis (38:02 – 43:45)

The hosts explore the central themes of the novella, focusing on queerness, rebellion, and the struggle against oppressive societal structures. They draw parallels to historical and contemporary issues, such as the Hays Code's impact on representation and the resilience of marginalized communities.

Key Discussions:

• Queer Representation: The bookstore librarians are not only part of the rebellion but also embody queer identities, challenging the oppressive norms.
• Rebellion and Control: The distribution of approved materials serves as both a tool for control and a means of fostering dissent.
• Optimism and Hope: Despite the dystopian setting, the narrative carries an inherently optimistic message about resistance and community.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew [10:47]: "It's about imagining the possibility and promise of queer futures."
• Craig [24:35]: "It's more about just control."

---

5. Critique and Reviews (43:46 – 58:14)

Andrew and Craig discuss various reviews of Upright Women Wanted, highlighting both praise and criticisms. Common points include the novella's brevity, which some reviewers felt led to underdeveloped characters and rushed world-building. However, the overall consensus acknowledges Gailey's engaging blend of classic Western elements with speculative fiction and queer narratives.

Reviewer Insights:

• Jason Heller (NPR): Praised the fusion of Western aesthetics with queer speculative twists.
• Lesbrary.com: Described the novella as "perfect bite-sized story" that could benefit from being expanded into a full-length novel.
• Goodreads: Mixed reviews pointing out the enjoyable writing and plot but noting the desire for more extensive world-building and character development.

Notable Quotes:

• Craig [50:14]: "I could easily see the characters and situation being worked into a larger story."
• Andrew [53:06]: "It's not a negative thing, just that it's a short book and that's what gets sacrificed."

---

6. Personal Reactions and Final Thoughts (58:15 – 61:23)

The hosts share their personal reactions to the novella, discussing the character of Esther and the overall message of resilience. They compare Upright Women Wanted to other works like Stone Butch Blues and The Handmaid's Tale, noting Gailey's unique approach to speculative future narratives.

Key Points:

• Character Connection: While Murderbot remains memorable due to its distinctive voice, Esther is seen as more of a "cipher," making it harder to root for her fully.
• World-Building Choices: Gailey intentionally avoids deep dive into the sequence of events leading to the dystopian state, focusing instead on overarching themes and character dynamics.
• Optimistic Messaging: Emphasizes the importance of community and hope in the face of oppression, aligning with the podcast's overall positive tone.

Notable Quote:

• Andrew [61:18]: "It's here to make a point that is fundamentally optimistic. It's not really, like, moping too much or wallowing around too much. It's meant to be affirming."

---

7. Conclusion and Wrap-Up (61:24 – 65:00)

Andrew and Craig conclude the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with them through various platforms and to continue supporting the podcast via Patreon. They briefly mention upcoming projects and books, maintaining the episode's positive and community-focused vibe.

Notable Quotes:

• Craig [62:53]: "The show wouldn't be possible without you."
• Andrew [63:32]: "If you hear us talk about a book and you're like, oh, that sounds like my thing, you can go there and buy the book."

---

Overall Summary: In Episode 711 of Overdue, Andrew and Craig delve into Sarah Gailey's novella Upright Women Wanted, a speculative Western that intertwines themes of queerness and rebellion within a dystopian future United States. The hosts provide a thorough exploration of Gailey's world-building, character dynamics, and overarching messages of hope and community resilience. While the novella receives praise for its unique blend of genres and optimistic outlook, some critiques highlight the limitations imposed by its brevity, suggesting a potential for a more expansive narrative. The episode encapsulates the essence of Overdue—celebrating overlooked or overdue books through engaging discussions and insightful analysis.

Notable Quotes for Reference:

• Andrew [01:30]: "It's called Upright Women Wanted. It's by Sarah Gailey."
• Craig [04:03]: "Gailey grew up reading stuff like Goosebumps and Fear Street Shout Out Jovial Bob Nice, as well as works by Clive Barker."
• Andrew [10:47]: "It's about imagining the possibility and promise of queer futures."
• Craig [50:14]: "I could easily see the characters and situation being worked into a larger story."
• Andrew [61:18]: "It's here to make a point that is fundamentally optimistic."

---

For More Information:

• Visit overduepodcast.com to explore more episodes and discover additional book recommendations.
• Support the podcast and gain access to bonus content by joining at patreon.com/overduepod.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a headgum podcast. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any.

[Craig]

Well told tale, they will not shy.

[Andrew]

Away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue, a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

And we are hitting the trail this week with another book. Riding off into the mountains, telling stories. You know, we've brought this one to you. Whatever mountain you may be on, literal.

[Andrew]

Figurative, whatever, whatever journey you're on, whatever post, sort of vaguely post apocalyptic possible future that you're participating in, that we're.

[Craig]

All participating in these days. And yeah, we've hopped on our, on our horses and we're riding out your way because it's, because it's a sort of a Western in here.

[Andrew]

Sort of a Western. It's called Upright Women Wanted. It's by Sarah Gailey. And I read this book for our book podcast where every week one of us reads a book that we've never read before and we tell the other person and we tell you about it and sometimes some of us do like a little mouth music. Yeah, I decline a mouth music over here.

[Craig]

I was realizing I knew a little bit more of whatever that Fistful of Dollars song, whatever it is.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But it just kind of surprises me. It just keeps going and it's a little bit different each verse. I was wondering if I was ever going to run out, but I stopped myself before I found that out, you know. So we're going to talk about Upright Women Wanted.

[Andrew]

Andrew came out in February of 2020.

[Craig]

An interesting time for a book.

[Andrew]

That's it is that, that will, that will come up a bit.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

As we talk about what this novel novella is presenting as like one possible future for the United States.

[Craig]

Oh, these United States. I see where, you know, we're, you.

[Andrew]

Know, we're five years and a bit on from FEBR 2020. It doesn't feel like it sometimes, but we are. In fact we are. And it's just fun, just fun, just fun to talk about how things have progressed in the last half decade or so.

[Craig]

I expect a rip. Roy, Interesting conversation. I've never read any of Sarah Gailey's work, Andrew. Have you? Other than this?

[Andrew]

No, I. This is the only one of their things I have read.

[Craig]

Okay. Yes. They were born in 1990 in the Great state of California. They are a nonfiction essayist and writer. Their stuff has appeared in Mashable, Boston Globe, Tor, Dot com, comma, also a creative writer. Many novellas and novels. They told Publishers Weekly that they started reading and writing when they were little, had really bad asthma, spent a lot of time inside reading and tried to find all the stuff that was way too old for me. The things my two older sisters were reading. Teen stuff, stuff about serial killers.

[Andrew]

You know, teen stuff.

[Craig]

It just reminded me when I was the baby, because you were big boy, you were big brother, and you were 1984, and I was baby from the show Dinosaurs and I.

[Andrew]

And, you know, and we do Gotta love you.

[Craig]

We do. God, I demand, unfortunately. And I just remember, like. Like being exposed to, like, the Real World and, like, MTV in a way that was.

[Andrew]

Oh, you mean the Real World, the show that the Secretary of Transportation was on and not. Not the Real World, the thing that we're all living in?

[Craig]

No, just thinking about.

[Andrew]

The guy from the Real World is the Secretary of Transportation.

[Craig]

Just thinking about the, like, the media I was exposed to by virtue of, like, having two older sisters.

[Andrew]

It worked the opposite way for me because I know about a fair swath of, like, later Nicktoon and, like, Disney Channel cartoon cartoons.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

That was not. It was not my stuff, but I know of it because brother was five years younger than me. And so, yeah, like, I got a bunch of, like, fairly odd parents.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Even, like, even Stevens and stuff. How much recess gotten a little. Not a lot.

[Craig]

Not. Not as much as you should. Recess.

[Andrew]

Get a little recess in there. Get a little, like, Pepper Ann in there.

[Craig]

Yeah. Anyway, Gailey grew up reading stuff like Goosebumps and Fear Street Shout Out Jovial Bob Nice. As well as stuff like Clive Barker. Okay. All right. Those are the two levels of fear, I suppose. They studied theater for a year at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in la.

[Andrew]

That's the right amount of time to study it.

[Craig]

Listen, they ran a theater company in the East Bay with somebody. They've spoken in interviews about having some trauma from prior relationships. I read one reference to this time working in theater, where that was part of why they left it in the first place. So. But they've spoken about, like, a lot of their writing is a way for them to process, you know, trauma they've experienced, like a lot of authors do. They left to work as a temp at a tech policy research firm, and they were critiquing short stories for a friend. And the friend said, thank you, and Sarah Gailey said, I will write some stories. And the friend gave feedback, such as, some people should stick to what they're good at. And I wrote my notes. Ack.

[Andrew]

What a friend. That's amazing. No, that was somebody who did not like the edits that they got, who was trying to put someone else in their place.

[Craig]

That's a good. Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. And I gaily has kind of spoken about their career as being a. Like, you told me I couldn't, so here I am doing it. Like, overall, just a. Like, the more you tell me I can't do it, the more I'm going to work harder at it.

[Andrew]

I just think about that as, like, the most quintessentially American.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[Andrew]

That exists. Like, if there. If there's any. If there's anything that I'd sort of look to. To find a little bit of optimism in these. In these trying times, it's like the first. The first way to get somebody to be like, well, I'm not doing that. Is to, like, tell them to do it.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

So hopefully that also applies to, like, really bad stuff in addition to, like, take medicine and, you know. You know, buckle your seatbelt.

[Craig]

Their first short story was published in 2017. It was a story called Look. About a baby with its eyes fused shut. What is with these authors with stories about babies?

[Andrew]

This is my 500 IQ. Baby with its eyes.

[Craig]

What are we doing?

[Andrew]

Shut. Yeah.

[Craig]

Another 2017 story got. Got the attention of an agent.

[Andrew]

We're gonna do weird baby month. We got about half a month of programming.

[Craig]

What month. What month is most associated with babies?

[Andrew]

That's. Well, nine months after Valentine's Day is like.

[Craig]

September is like November. October. November.

[Andrew]

Oh, no. Seven months. Yeah. I was just making sure that you knew November the most remain the most baby full month.

[Craig]

Okay, fair enough.

[Andrew]

Look up U.S. birthday distribution.

[Craig]

Great. All right. And they were talking to an agent. 2017. And they had the. This hippo novella of the American hippo duology.

[Andrew]

November, actually not super high. August is baby month.

[Craig]

So that's coming out of, like, the holidays. Yeah, people are. People are with each other around the holidays.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

It's cold outside. You have a baby nine months later. That's how it works. Time.

[Andrew]

And it's got. In its IQ, it's 500, but it's.

[Craig]

But so it doesn't need to look at anything because it already knows everything.

[Andrew]

Okay, consider it.

[Craig]

Sorry, go ahead. That's fine. So Gailey is working on what they call the American Hippo duology. Historical fiction about what if hippos had been imported per a real 1910 House resolution proposal. It was a state house. And they wrote two novels about these hippos or two novellas. And the agent called back and was like, hey, these hippos are cool, but do you have a novel? And gaily. Gaily was like, ew, I'd never write a novel. All my. All my friends who write novels are sad. And then two weeks later, they had an idea for a novel.

[Andrew]

That's how it goes. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

I assume.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I guess I thought I'd written a novel before.

[Craig]

So they. They published the American Hippo duology. I think the first one is called Rivers of Teeth or river of Teeth. Their first full length novel, Magic for Liars. Published 2019 debut YA novel. Followed that When We Were Magic. Then a novel about clones called the Echo Wife. Another novel just like home. They've done original. An original comic series, Eat the Rich. They did an arc for Buffy comics. Did some Steven Universe comics, Man, those Buffy comics.

[Andrew]

I have not read any of them, but I have read summaries of them. And they're so weird. They're so weird. Sounding like I think Spike gets like a spaceship or something. Like, what is going on in the Buffy comics?

[Craig]

I don't know, man.

[Andrew]

What. Who's still reading over there? I don't know.

[Craig]

But, you know, he got a lot of canvas to play with, I suppose.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

This novel, as we said, published 2020 weird time. Nominated for the Hugo and Locus awards for novella. They've received a number of Hugo. Hugo and Locus nominations and shortlists telling the Interstellar Flight Press while writing this, they were. Tried to connect to the person that they were when they were young. Quote, when I was young queer and felt completely doomed trying to set the book in the future because it's about imagining the possibility and promise of queer futures.

[Andrew]

That's interesting. Yeah. Because in light of the conversation we had. We had last week. Was it last week? Was it the week before?

[Craig]

Yeah, it was last week.

[Andrew]

Just about Edmund White. Yes. About him talking about, like, adapting a boy's own story for later audiences and about the emphasis coming off of, like, the. The coming out and going more to like what. What everyday life is like.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

This book is not. It's not about coming out so much, but it is like, I recognize for our age cohort, I think the, like, the internalized homophobia of the. Of the main character is. And the.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, I can't live this way because something is wrong with me. Like, it felt a little older.

[Craig]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But sort of what White was writing about. Yeah, of course.

[Andrew]

Yes. But like, interestingly, as a portrait of a possible future United States, we'll have some things to talk about, I think.

[Craig]

Sure. I did read an interview on Read more co dot com. What is that? Is that read? Yeah, it's Read more co. All right.

[Andrew]

Let'S make sure it's no Interview magazine.

[Craig]

No where they said about setting it in, you know, kind of a Western aesthetic. I find pulp Western narratives to be a perfect natural fit for queer stories already. Because queer people are accustomed to the kind of rugged hardship that characterizes Old west stories. Because upright women wanted deals. Because upright women wanted deals explicitly with fascism, a social structure that is actively hostile to joy and diversity, a desert of ideals. The Wild west seemed like a doubly good fit, so.

[Andrew]

And they're not. And the other thing about Westerns is a couple of guys out in the desert alone.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Nothing gay about that.

[Craig]

No, nothing. Nothing at all. That is also the interview where I read about this. So there's something I'll be interested to hear more about in the context of the novel. These librarians who are bringing people books by horseback, apparently based on a real life thing called the Pack Horse Library Project. Did you read about this, Andrew?

[Andrew]

No, I didn't.

[Craig]

It was a wpa. Imagine the government would fund things that people could do. In the 1940s, 1930s WPA program called the Pack Horse Library Project specifically about delivering books to Appalachian communities in Kentucky. There was estimated 1 in 3 people in Kentucky at the time could not read and they did not have reasonable access to public library materials. So the WPA set up a program where women would ride on horseback and deliver books to schools and houses and communities throughout Kentucky.

[Andrew]

This is just exactly the kind of program that some like self styled ultra genius looks like, looks at as a line item in a government budget. And it's like, well, I'm gonna delete that one because I have access to all the computers and I can just delete anything I think I personally think is stupid.

[Craig]

Well, and they would even be like, what? The government didn't even pay for the books. All the books were donated. Get rid of it. They don't need it. They just do it on their own.

[Andrew]

Yeah, just let the community take care of them.

[Craig]

You can read more about it in the Smithsonian mag.com Eliza McGraw wrote an article called Horse Riding Librarians Were the Great Depression's Bookmobiles. And that is basically it is a bookmobile program on horseback. And everybody's reading.

[Andrew]

It's like the Biblio Burrow. Yeah, you know him you read that?

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

You read that one.

[Craig]

What?

[Andrew]

It's called Waiting for the Biblioborough. And it's about a man who comes into town with his donkey and with books.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And a little girl who waits and waits for the next time that he.

[Craig]

Comes for the next.

[Andrew]

And then. And then she makes a book, and then she gives it to him, and he's like, dang, cool book. Can I put it in my library and take it with me? And she's like, yeah, sick.

[Craig]

Okay. I just like this as a part of this novel, because what I'll be interested to learn more about is that it is not a. And we've read a couple of books about this that I have found very interesting historical fiction that is about queer stories that just, like, have not been told. Right. This is instead a old west aesthetic future of some kind that is also taking the opportunity to tell queer stories that are not typically told, but it is not in a. Like, these are, like, based on people from historical record. You know, like, we're telling you the story, the history of San Francisco that you just haven't read about in other fiction before or something like that. So I'm interested in learning about the spec fic aspect of it.

[Andrew]

It's very much like, what if. You know, what if. Light political commentary. What if Western? But what if you spend a lot of time on Tumblr and AO3? That's the sort of soup that this book comes out of.

[Craig]

I think this soup tastes a little spicy. I like it a little bit. All right, well, let's let the soup sit on the burner for a little bit so all the flavors mix together. And we'll be right back after this break. And I can slurp it all up.

[Andrew]

Gross.

[Craig]

This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Andrew, you got any thoughts on workplace stress?

[Andrew]

Don't. Try not to have it.

[Craig]

Try not to.

[Andrew]

Try to avoid it.

[Craig]

Just try to get out of there.

[Andrew]

Try not. Try not. Just try. Put your head. Put your head down and avoid it at all costs. That's my. Emotionally. You're gonna tell me how emotionally healthy this is? I bet. As part of this ad, I think you.

[Craig]

I mean, right away, I just want to say, like, I think we're all in agreement here. The workplace stress is one of the top causes of declining mental health. 61% of the global workforce experience higher than normal levels of stress. Andrew's right. Avoid it. Get out of there. To battle stress. Most of us, we can't wave goodbye to work, so we tried Other things, you know, we exercise, we cook healthy foods, we touch grass. Andrew, you've been touching a lot of grass lately.

[Andrew]

Yeah, some grass, some tomatoes.

[Craig]

Yes. Nobody says touch tomatoes because that's not. We don't say that anymore.

[Andrew]

Well, and it's hard. Growing tomatoes is hard. These guys love being alive until the minute that they don't, you know. You know that about tomato plants.

[Craig]

I do know that. They're very tomato.

[Andrew]

Tell me more about, tell me more about our sponsors.

[Craig]

Some folks like to take a summer holiday, but that's not a long term solution to stress. And don't forget that therapy can help you navigate whatever challenges that the workday or any day might bring. I think that therapy is a great long term strategy for managing stress. It can help you identify positive coping skills. You can learn to set some effective boundaries. You can generally empower you to be your best self. So you can manage that stress or excise some of those stressors from your day to day. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. They've got over 30,000 therapists. Andrew. That is three times as many therapists as people can currently attend an athletics baseball game.

[Andrew]

Because they move, that's a lot of therapists.

[Craig]

They move the athletics to a weird minor league stadium that only 10,000 people can go to. It's a bit of a crime.

[Andrew]

Okay, but if, but if you try, if you fit all the better help therapists in there.

[Craig]

Well, you couldn't. There's, there's more of them than can fit there.

[Andrew]

Right. But if you fit 10,000 of them in there, you'd go in there and then you come out and you just feel really good, I think.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think you probably would.

[Andrew]

They'd be cheering. A lot of good conversations with people.

[Craig]

It is convenient. Better help. It's way more convenient than driving around in California. Am I right? No need to get on the freeway. You just join a session with your therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. So as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Unwind from work with BetterHelp and our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] overdue. That's betterhelphelp.com overdue. Okay, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

The tumbleweeds are blown by. The horses are neighing, the cattle are lowing. Tell me more about these upright women and the western world in which they inhabit.

[Andrew]

Sure. Do we want to talk about the world first or characters first?

[Craig]

Can you pick just one?

[Andrew]

I mean, you got to pick one to start with. Let's go with the world a little bit.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Let's talk about the possible speculative future version of the United States. We don't get a ton of it in this book. At no point do we learn sort of a sequence of events that possibly could have brought us from where we were in February 2020 to now. Okay, I think. You know that Civil War movie?

[Craig]

Yeah, that one.

[Andrew]

Not about the regular civil war that happened, but the speculative one about a possible future civil war.

[Craig]

No, the one where the guy from Friday Night Lights was pointing a gun at people. That one.

[Andrew]

Yeah, sure, that. I. I read interviews about that, about that movie where they were talking about, like, the states that they chose to group together in that conflict and they, like, specifically did it. So that would be really confusing and, like, hard to map to.

[Craig]

Yeah, to modern politics, to. To the 538 map. Yeah, yeah. So.

[Andrew]

So you've got some kind of, like, insurrection or rebellion that has happened that is centralized in the states of Utah, Florida, and Maine.

[Craig]

They're very far apart, which are very.

[Andrew]

Far apart and also pretty, like, different in terms. Very different is going on in them.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

But things like the government has. In a lot of ways, it's kind of devolves because it's not providing a lot of services anymore. There's one line, one time about how the roads used to be smooth as glass, but then all the money that they spent on roads got started getting spent on war instead, and now we don't have nice roads anymore.

[Craig]

Oh, okay. There are potholes in my neighborhood right now, man.

[Andrew]

Don't give me. Don't get me started on the roads up here.

[Craig]

Don't even get me started.

[Andrew]

Don't even get me started about how apparently we just don't remember how to patch roads once we dig trenches in them to put pipes anymore.

[Craig]

Nope, nope.

[Andrew]

We just patch over them, and then we let them sink down lower and lower.

[Craig]

And it won't do anything to the pipes. Don't worry about it. The patches won't affect the pipes at all.

[Andrew]

No, it's fine. It's all good.

[Craig]

So there are three states.

[Andrew]

There are three. Yes. We are spending time in Arizona mostly with. With our characters, which is, you know, if you're doing a western thing, you set it in a Western state.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know, you don't. You don't see a lot of civilization. You mostly hear about it, you know, secondhand through the narrator's perspective and through things that people say. But yeah, there's some, some kind of war, there's some kind of government, and there are government efforts to kind of restrict what the people in the country are reading so that they don't have, like, wrong thoughts about anything.

[Craig]

Great. Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

And in, in this, in this apocalyptic society, to get these, to get these approved materials, Capital A, capital M. Okay. To the populace, especially far flung members of the populace who live in sort of rural areas or areas that aren't densely populated like you might have in a desert. You have these librarians and they go around their wagons and their horsies because people don't have cars, because people can't get fuel because there's no surfaces or anything anymore.

[Craig]

Okay, good. That's. I was wondering like, where. Always got to. Always got to figure out where the tech went.

[Andrew]

Right. It's interesting that it's not, it's not some kind of like techno dystopia or even like a capitalist dystopia, because you would think that the oil companies would at least keep the oil flow. You would think, you know, in a lot of apocalypses. No, it's not like that. There's just like, there's no technology. And so you got the, you got these government books. The main character, Esther, tells who is. Who is from a law. A quote, law abiding family and who get. Who like, finds herself joined up with these librarians for reasons that we'll talk about.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

She. She says, you know, these materials are how you keep the, the populace unified. And she, and she doesn't, she doesn't see them as like a, as propaganda thing yet. She just sees them as a way to keep everybody like on the same page and, and digesting the same information.

[Craig]

Okay. Okay.

[Andrew]

Coming. You know, again, coming from 2025, where the, the fact that nobody agrees on what truth is is like a lot of the problem. You can kind of see multiple. You. You could see a way for multiple, like political ideologies to get to a point like this.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Andrew]

Yeah. It's like it's not. Not necessarily all like right or left coded in any, like, predictable.

[Craig]

Yes. In a way that maps cleanly. Yeah. It's more about just control.

[Andrew]

Sure. Yeah. So that's, that's the world. That's mostly what you find out about.

[Craig]

How do you. I'm always curious with stuff like this. Is this what you've just relayed to us? How does the reader acquire that information? Is there an info dump at top. Is it kind of accretive over the course of the novel, like.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's. It. You. You get bits and pieces. Like, Esther, as somebody who's just joining up with these librarians for the first time, is going to find out a lot about their world, and that is how we're going to find out about the world also. And then Esther, coming from a. Somebody who's, like, pretty well connected in this. In this government or this society, coming into this group of people who. It's more subversive, like the colliding of priorities and the colliding of worlds also gets you snippets of information sometimes.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

So the stuff about. The stuff about the States is talking about where they're going to go and where they're going to take Esther, who's. Who's kind of hopped on to their. To their caravan as she's fleeing something else. You're going to Utah. Run away. Esther blinked at Beth's receding figure. Utah?

[Craig]

That.

[Andrew]

That can't be right. That's where the insurrectionists live, isn't it? She said, isn't it? As if she weren't sure. But of course she knew she was right. Everyone knew. Utah, Florida, and Maine, those were the three insurrectionist strongholds, the most dangerous places in the country, places where the rule of law didn't matter. So you know a little bit about her, like, her perspective and the way she sees the world and is encountering the world in there. Then you also get, like, here's. Here's just, like, the three states that are the bad state.

[Craig]

We just picked some bad ones.

[Andrew]

We just picked some bad ones. They're all super far apart. They're all very different.

[Craig]

Hmm. Do you get the sense that they are. They're in allegiance with one another, like, or they all just kind of their own messy bad guy.

[Andrew]

It's just an insurrectionist stronghold. So it doesn't really get into whether there's, like, some specific Mormon stuff going on in Utah, like not going on in Florida or in May.

[Craig]

Is there a group chat with those governors or not? And with those rogue governors?

[Andrew]

Maybe. Maybe it's them and Marc Andreessen, and they're all just talking about stuff all the time.

[Craig]

Jeez. Thank you. Okay, so tell me more about Esther. Where did. How did Esther join? You said, did they join up with the librarians?

[Andrew]

So Esther, she is in. She is stowed away in, like, a sort of a cargo hold in a wagon that these librarians are hauling. And she is. At the beginning of the book, she is mourning the death of Beatriz is the. Is the name.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Of the. Of the woman. And we pick up through pretty strong context clues that Esther and Beatriz were involved romantically and that that's not allowed and that Esther was promised to. To some man who she could not stand to be married to. And so she has run away from this and she doesn't really have a plan in mind. But the librarians, they, you know, they. They rove around people, don't give them a lot of trouble. So she's just kind of hopped on board and hopes that when she is discovered, if she's discovered, that they will maybe take her in because she's like rehearsed story. Like she. She has a plan for when they finally find her after a couple of days.

[Craig]

Okay. This feels like a fun western y trope. The. Not the, like, I'm going to stow away and you just have to take me because what else are you going to do? Like, yeah, right. A little bit of Western, little bit of, you know, seafaring. But I dig it as a. As an introduction to a character. But do you like.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you don't.

[Craig]

Do you get many more details about Beatrice other than just, hey, that was a relationship. That person is unfortunately killed. Yeah.

[Andrew]

No, I mean, she is. She was a more rebellious sort.

[Craig]

Yes. Okay. Huh.

[Andrew]

Esther didn't. Doesn't really understand what that was all about until kind of toward the end of the book. And when Esther has moments of like, self doubt or moments when she is really like, something is broken in me and I need to just run away from everybody so I can't hurt anyone. Like, the voice that is talking to her inside her head when she's having those conversations is usually Beatrice's voice for whatever reason. So yeah, these librarians, Leda and Bet, find her and they grill her. There's this third librarian named Sai who is, I think like apprentice. The other two librarians and she. And they pull Esther aside and have this big moment where it's like out here, I'm they, but anytime we're in town, I'm she. And don't you forget it.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Which to like. So Bette and Leda are romantically involved with each other. They're librarians, but they're also. They're also having fun times together romantically, if you know what I mean.

[Craig]

I mean, I really do. So I don't know why you're saying.

[Andrew]

It that way, but if you know what I mean.

[Craig]

But it also seems like it's a little secretive from anybody that the librarians might encounter.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So it's also really setting up that these librarians are out here in the desert where nobody can see. They're using. They're using different pronouns and they're. They're having same sex sex.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And yes. Okay, it's all. It's all not allowed. It's all very much not allowed.

[Craig]

But. Okay, so there's a tension there. Right. If the librarians are the ones disseminating the government approved materials, but they are themselves subversive of the rules of the government.

[Andrew]

Interesting. Interesting.

[Craig]

Ah, okay.

[Andrew]

It's. It's the thing. The big thing that the book is doing is, like, these librarians, they are supposedly, they're spreading government approved materials and that's. That's their cover story. But they do have a wagon with, like, a secret cargo hold that's big enough for a person to stow away and unnoticed for multiple days.

[Craig]

So they are.

[Andrew]

They are also distributing contraband. They, you know, they talk about how there are little, like there. There are individuals and there are little, like, cells of people in towns and cities all over the country. This. This is all this is. I'm skipping right to the end of the book.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

In this. But it, but it uses this, like, subversion against the government and queerness. Like, they're kind of intertwined in this because Esther finds out, like, yes, all these people are rebelling against this oppressive government and also are, like, being their true selves and they're loving who they want to love. And it doesn't mean anybody's broken. It's just the way that they. That they are.

[Craig]

Cool. Okay, so that's.

[Andrew]

That's where the. But thematically, that's the big. That's the big, like, thing that the book is doing.

[Craig]

Can you help me with Esther there a little bit? Because I think you mentioned it before the break, and then you also just said the word broken as part of, like, Esther's assessment maybe of herself. Like, tell me a little bit more.

[Andrew]

About her assessment of herself. Yeah, yeah, She's. She feels really bad that Beatrice got killed and Beatrice got killed because she's the. I don't know. You don't know exactly why.

[Craig]

But they. But they were killed.

[Andrew]

They were together and she got killed.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And Esther feels guilty about it because you're not supposed to, like the approved materials, that you're not supposed to be doing all this gay stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

With anybody. And when I talked before the break about it, feeling a little older or, like, familiar to people who grew up when we grew up. And before. It's a lot. Just the emphasis is on. This is a thing about me. It is intrinsic to me, and I feel bad about it because I don't want to feel this way, but I can't help but feel this way, and I just have to run away and keep that secret from everybody. So it can't. So I can't come out and hurt somebody or hurt anybody else. Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Andrew]

But I also don't want to, like, stay around and play act this, like, heterosexual marriage to this man who I don't want to. Yeah. And so there's some of that. There's some of Esther, like, they go through security checkpoints a couple times, and Esther, you know, feels herself letting some man, like, call her sweetheart and help her down from her horse, even though she doesn't need it. Because, like, this is the way that you act, to not draw attention to yourself. Like this. This is the kind of man who just wants you to. He wants himself to feel like he's a nice guy who's doing nice things for you and that you were flattered. And if you know how to act, then you're not going to draw unwanted attention to yourself. And, like. Well, sometimes you might draw unwanted attention to yourself, but mostly you're just trying to blend in. And this is the way that you. You do it. But, yeah, it's a very male run. Like, male centric. Like, males are in all the positions of power.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

That we see.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Aside from the librarians, who have their own sort of power. But they're, you know, they're mostly pack mules, I guess. Well, it seems like the way that they're set up to function. Yeah.

[Craig]

They're operating without direct oversight, which is its own form of power. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, they, you know, they've got a. They collect old materials and they disseminate new ones. So, like, they are answering to somebody at some point, but they, you know, there is not some kind of handler out there, like, checking in with them.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Especially not if, as a librarian, you probably have some kind of relationship with the authorities and, like, whatever territory it is that you. That you rove around in. And so, you know, you build up some kind of trust with whoever the cops are, and then they don't, like. They don't hassle you too bad after that.

[Craig]

Yes. Yes. Sure. Yeah. So what happens? Like, what. What? Like, then is. Okay, so then they discover her, and then they're, like, finding herself. They.

[Andrew]

They discover her. And Esther is not welcomed into the group, but is kind of allowed to continue traveling with them, even though they see her mostly as a liability. Liability. And they're doing their own stuff. Like, it's a. It's a bit of a. You join the, you know, you join the secret society by just like, forcing your way in and then proving yourself worthy, you know, kind of trope.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

So, yes. Bet. And later are the two people who are leading this little. This little cell of the librarians. And they let Esther travel with them. And then sai. This third person is kind of the apprentice kind of assistant kind of figure. And the three of them collectively decide, okay, like, we're not going to boot this person out. We're not going to kill them. We're going to take them to Utah, one of the insurrection states, and we're going to drop them off. So we see them do like a. Like a routine library stop where they, you know, they leave the books and they come back with all kinds of parcels that are different things. And Esther's like, what gives with all these different parcels? And. And Esther kind of gets waved away like, oh, it's just. This is like food and other things that people give us as like, tokens of appreciation. Not really reading her into the, like, the bootlegging of it all just yet. And then they. They meet up with these three other people and one of them is a woman named Amity who does not smile or laugh. And they are just. The librarians are escorting these people also to Utah. Like, they're going the same way.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

As they're taking Esther. So they are doing this and then suddenly a. A posse of like half a dozen dudes led by a sheriff of some nearby town comes upon them. And Esther's like, whoa, this must be. This must be for me because I ran away from home and my dad's like, semi powerful and a couple of the, you know, I think psy in particular, who's got like a. They and Esther have a. Have sparks kind of flying. They don't. They don't actually smooch until later in the book.

[Craig]

But is it like, pretty quick that they have sparks?

[Andrew]

It's. I mean, it's like instantly.

[Craig]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Andrew]

Instantly. And it's. It's a. It's not even enemies to lovers quite. Because there's not enough time for that to be enemies. Yeah. For that to boil. But. But sigh is very like, prickly and bristly.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

But also, there's a. There's an energy there that Esther feels that's like, well, man, I gotta. I'm Running away from home so I don't have to feel these horny feelings anymore. But now this other person's making me feel the horny feelings, and that makes me feel worse. And I just got to get away from everybody before I can hurt myself or them with all of my feelings that I cannot control.

[Craig]

Sure, sure.

[Andrew]

So this, it turns out that this, this posse of guys is actually after Amity, who has killed somebody related to the government in some way. We never really find out much about the. The person who Amity has killed. But Amity is wanted for murder, which they find out in another town where they go to, like, get supplies. And Amity's not there. She's, like, stayed back with a couple others. And Esther's. This is where Esther's doing the. The sort of play acting, being like a demure, helpless damsel to get in good with the authorities in this town so you can go in and buy supplies. And they hand her a little, you know, a little wanted pamphlet. And it's Amity and Amity has killed somebody. And so they go on to the next town. Amity's secret is revealed to everybody. And Bet and later are very upset. Sai's very upset. And they're like, we gotta dump this lady. Amity's like, I don't think so, because I'm bad. I'm gonna threaten to kill everybody if you don't. If you don't. If you don't let me go with you. And so they go to this next town, and Amity is not gonna hide. She's just like, out in the open and there's this big gunfight that you don't really see because you're getting it all from Esther's perspective. And Esther kind of has like a traumatic, like, not even like a blackout, but just like a fade to the next scene kind of thing.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure. And then you get the aftermath of gunfire.

[Andrew]

And then you get the aftermath and, like, it turns out that, you know, Bette and Layda, are they. They. Not only are they Librarians, but they're also like, part of this rebellion thing that is happening.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

You know, you would refer to it as the insurrection from outside of it, which is why. Which is what you get from Esther's perspective initially, but they're members of this rebellion. And now that they've been in this fight with these authorities, like, they've been. They've been made and they can't really be useful as librarians anymore. And so Psy and Esther get read into, like, fully read into the Secret society of the librarians and what they're. What they're doing and the kind of hope that they're bringing to people throughout. Throughout this broken nation. Yes, throughout this broken nation. And. Yeah. And from there, the book is mostly just like being. It's being very affirming and being very explicit about this link between people who are in this rebellion and like, people who are queer or, you know, non typical in some way.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Where is it? Everywhere. Esther whispered to herself. There are people like us everywhere. Sy and Amity looked at each other, then back at Esther. Yeah, Hop along, Sy said carefully. People like us. Hop along is Esther's cool cowboy nickname.

[Craig]

That's a great nickname for a stowaway, actually.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Stowaway. And then some stuff later. Keep fighting. It will be hard and it will be awful and it will be worth it. Don't give up. Even when it feels like dying, don't give up. This is only the beginning. It's all very like. Yeah, it's all very like. It gets better. Do you remember that old, like that video campaign from like the OTS or early 2010s, maybe, but like.

[Craig]

But specifically couched in the language of rebellion and fighting in the West. But it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

But just, you know, more. More of a sense of what. What people are fighting against and fighting for. And as Esther, you know, she has been so down on herself this entire book and so worried about the way that she feels in the way that she is. And then she's in this group of people where she sees like two people in a loving relationship that just then it just seems like a nice. And it seems normal and it seems like just a thing that people do. You got psy. Who's non binary. And then they're allowed to be that way outside of the towns because that's where. Because that's where society is sent.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Just all the places where this oppressive government has not like, you know, they can't capture your. Your hearts and minds all the way. Like you can still kind of be yourself. And we're gonna keep trying to. To bring all these people together and maybe in that way we will eventually affect change. And like, don't. Don't give up, no matter how hopeless things look.

[Craig]

Yeah, for sure. Well, and it's interesting, even just. I think I've already covered the interviews where Gailey has talked about this, but it's like. It's interesting to put this in conversation with stuff like Stone Butch Blues, like last night, the Telegraph Club, where it's like yeah. Here are these pocket communities where you can go and be yourself, but it is more couched in historical fiction where you're, I guess, part of the project there at least from, like, Feinberg for Stone, Butch Blues is like, this has always been happening. Like, you can find strength and power and comfort in that. And Gaily, instead, is like, no, this is a. Like a future that we could realize. Like, this is a. Yeah. Even if things get really, really broken and the cars don't work anymore, but there's still oppression. Weird how that works.

[Andrew]

The cars. Yeah, the cars have broken down, but oppression has not.

[Craig]

No, that engine keeps on humming, unfortunately, until we break it. Until we smash it. Because we can.

[Andrew]

Yeah, unfortunately, hate is such a. It's a sustainable fuel there. Was there something that. It's just infinitely renewable. And I wish. I wish it weren't, but it kind of is.

[Craig]

As we wrap, Andrew, I have a couple, like, reviews to toss at you. Is it. Can you speak to a little bit of what the approved materials are? Do you learn anything about, like, what those stories or things are? Because there was a. There was a quote in one of the interviews where they talked about there being, like, queer tragedies in those materials that were maybe reinforcing what Esther was thinking about herself, which felt very like Hays Code is what Gailey said in an interview where, like, you know, what you were and weren't allowed to show in Hollywood films. And that, like, reinforced a lot of negative stereotypes of both, you know, gay folks and queer folks, but also of just sex in general and things like that. Is there anything that, like, Esther took from, like, what was approved that is relevant or not? It's okay if there's.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean, you get this. You get this big section of what the approved materials just are generally as, like, a body of things.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

The approved materials were considered educational, entertaining, honest, and inspiring. These were the materials that shaped the nation. They made sure that everyone had the same information, the same stories and the same songs to share, the same videos to watch. They united the entire country, reinforcing the values of the citizens.

[Craig]

Okay. Macro culture.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, in one way. In one way, I do sometimes sit around and be like, remember the monoculture? But also, like, I do think there's. There's this whole genre of. Of politician who succeeds partly because they first came to prominence in an era where everybody could still, like, learn who one person was.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

You know, that's correct.

[Craig]

No, you're totally right.

[Andrew]

And so they're just the person with a name id. And so that's, that's what gives them a leg up over, you know, Joe Q. Twitter or whoever, like, whatever. Idiot. I totally know what you're talking about in the race. Yeah. So, yeah, in some ways it would be nice if. It would be nice if we. If more of us were operating in a shared reality. But on the other hand, what if that reality were determined by some Orwellian government that was deleting all kinds of stories about, you know, about oppressed and marginalized communities.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

As part of that filtering process.

[Craig]

Okay, cool.

[Andrew]

To your exact question, you've got the approved materials telling everybody what the values of the citizens are. And so you do get these. I mean, that's clearly where Esther has come to this understanding of herself talking about the small, secret part of her that loved the broken thing and that loved the way it felt to tuck Beatrice's hair behind her ears and lick the hollow of her neck and watch her sleep. Neither of those parts of her could survive if she was going to keep herself from meeting the tragic end that she knew was promised to people like her. And so, you know, it's. It's in there in an implied sort of way at least. Like, you know, what. What's promising this tragic end? Oh, it must be all of the popular media that the government allows.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

To be disseminated.

[Craig]

Okay. Yep. Which is like.

[Andrew]

So there's, there's never any point where. Or at least it happens. So in passing. I don't remember it. There's not a point where Esther's talking about like a book that she read.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

Yeah, all the, all the gay people get fridged or whatever. Like, it's not that explicit, but that's, you know.

[Craig]

Well, you hear both about.

[Andrew]

Both about stuff, you know, like sexuality related. And then also, like, it comes. This all comes up because Esther is like trying to. Trying to be a helpful member of the team and is like, says something that she read one time in a book about horses and size, like. Well, you believe everything you read. Let me tell you a thing or two about the government. Oh, no, but in it. But in this one. But in this is justified.

[Craig]

Saigo and full like Wacky Uncle. Like, listen, kid. But that gets to, I think, a little bit of a strain that came up in basically every review I read, both positive and our reviews from a popular website about consuming books that we'll talk about in just a second.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

But that the. I think one thing that you might expect in this story, maybe that you could get out of it if it were a little Longer, because it is a pretty brief novella. Right.

[Andrew]

It's. It's super. Yeah. Super short. Which we can also talk about that. And.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think that's where I'm going now. Yeah. Because like, you could envision a longer version of this story that is spent not quite in a meta way, but that includes some of these, like, deeper dives into some of these approved materials. And then there's like maybe like a couple choice examples that Esther gets hung up reading that become like thematic touchstones throughout the story or something.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Or even you, I think about the Handmaid's Tale and how that handles world building. And I think like, maybe you even, you know, you do a couple flashbacks or you have a couple of like internal monologues on Esther or somebody's part. That's, that's more about like the progression.

[Craig]

Of how things went down.

[Andrew]

Yeah. To give, to give the reader a way to connect the dots, basically. And I don't think that is something that Gailey really is like super interested in doing. I think they, Yeah, I think they on purpose are like, don't worry about how we got from from here to there. I just want to talk about like, bigger. I don't want to get bogged down in those details because I want to talk about like a bigger truth.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Seems to be their thing.

[Craig]

There's a positive review from Jason Heller on npr. Talks about just that it's not a there were queer people in the Old West. It's a future where queer people exist in the new Old West. It's my notes, but it says.

[Andrew]

I guess it's the west they cancel out.

[Craig]

Heller didn't write that. That's, that's, that's a Craig original. But what Heller did.

[Andrew]

Right.

[Craig]

Couched in tart language, hard bitten imagery and pulp Western punch. The novella benefits from its brevity. And then I read a review on lesbrary.com great name. Nice for your publication.

[Andrew]

Good.

[Craig]

All in all, this is a perfect bite sized story that manages to blend classic western aesthetics with a queer speculative twist.

[Andrew]

And.

[Craig]

And I only wish it was longer. There's nothing in the story that feels stunted or left out, but I could easily see the characters and situation being worked into a larger story. Esther's involvement feels like a piece of a larger narrative. One that she could easily be either an active driving force in or a side character offering support. I really was struck by that last, like, proposal because I don't think I've read a review of something where it's like, yeah, the main character in this book feels like they could be a side character in an. In a larger version of this. That's not usually the, the thing I hear when it's like, I wanted more of this book, you know, I don't know.

[Andrew]

I like this Ender game book, but this Ender character seems like a side character.

[Craig]

I need more Bean.

[Andrew]

What if we did books about what if we did Bean books?

[Craig]

Demand Bean books where he became a.

[Andrew]

Tall, like a weird, like neocon skinny Mario. Those books get so wild.

[Craig]

So tell me what your initial reaction. You and I are going to go to our graves, like, complaining about the Beam books. What was your just like initial reaction as you put the book down to the scope of it?

[Andrew]

I said that. And I want everybody to understand that I mean no harm to nobody when I say this. But the way I put it in our slack conversation when we were like doing pre show, like, what do we want to talk about? What do we want to come ready to talk about is I asked you if you'd ever read something that felt like fan fiction, but you weren't sure what it was a fan fiction for.

[Craig]

I don't have an answer for this, by the way, but I know what you're talking about.

[Andrew]

Well, I was trying to think about what I meant by that. And what I think I mean by that is, is that it is a, it's a, it's a story that goes for, for like a big emotional sweep, but it isn't necessarily doing the in depth, sustained like character work that I think you, you need to make those moments hit all the way because, you know, in a thick of anything you're, you know that your audience is coming to you with some kind of like pre established relationship with these characters.

[Craig]

Y.

[Andrew]

So anything that happens with it, like, I'm not, I'm not saying that nothing is contextualized in this, but it is very like sort of blank slate. They could be anybody. You don't, you don't get like a strong sense of, of Esther as anything other than kind of a collection of characteristics. Well, I mean, that's how you characterize a collection of. Collection of tropes, I guess, for lack of a better word.

[Craig]

Well, and that I don't. Again, what you're saying, none of this has to be a negative comment, right?

[Andrew]

Because I'm not. Yeah, I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's a negative thing. It's just like it's a short book and that's kind of what gets that sacrifice. You get the World building. Building and little drips and drabs in the background. And also, none of the characters stick out a ton.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Which I mean, other. Other than that, the. The stories that it brings. Most of mine that I've read for the show or the Murderbot ones, actually, because I read it and I was like, okay, this is what what is. There is not a lot here, but what is here is the scaffolding for what could be. Like, it could be an interesting anthology series where you just, like, go with a different group of librarians in every novel that you do, or you stay focused on Esther and Sai and, like, the characters that you met and they're continuing adventures. Like, you could choose to do it in a lot of ways.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

I think the thing those books spend their pages on is making the Murderbot voice and the Murderbot perspective like the number one thing that you're gonna remember about it.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Where this is spread a little thinner across.

[Craig]

Well, and this one's across a few different things. I guess the top two things are the aesthetic and the message. Like, the kind of closing argument of the book seems like even more. Whereas Murderbot is like, you just need to fall in love with Murderbot by the end of this novella. Right.

[Andrew]

And.

[Craig]

And the couple of. We can talk about them now, Andrew. They are. They have. They have three stars, and they're from a website called Goodreads.

[Andrew]

Three star Goodreads review.

[Craig]

All of these talked about the length of. Of the work. I don't think I pulled this one, but there was one that talked about it kind of being a long short story in its structure and characterization, which, based on what you've said and your. Your characterization of, like, it takes a big emotional swing. It is not going to spend time, like, letting characters breathe in the same way something longer would, because it doesn't have time. And that's not the point. That feels very short story to me.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Long short story is interesting because I think you could. You could do something inside of a couple chapters that's like, here's an old Western sort of gunfight sort of thing. And here's. Here's this character and what she's running from and why. And, like. And here's the big sweeping point I want to make about staying strong in the face of adversity. You know, like, you could do it. You could boil it down even more if you really wanted to.

[Craig]

Bree says on Goodreads, lesbian librarians fighting fascism in the Wild West. Fudge. Yeah, that's Craig. That's Me saying fudge.

[Andrew]

Oh, okay. Because somebody on Goodreads would. Somebody on Goodreads would do that.

[Craig]

No. The protagonist was so sharp and I really loved her journey of self discovery, particularly her learning to question the systems of power. But the way she grew into her own strength. I think it would have worked better as a full length, 400 plus page novel rather than a novella as the relationships, world building and growth felt a bit rushed and underdeveloped. Not due to a lack of skill, but a side effect of the story's size. Nev said, I want to know what happened to make things regress so much. I wanted to see more of what the librarians are going to do in the future. I wanted to see more of the world and how things were different around the country. Felt like it was only scratching the surface of what could have been a more expansive story. And I think that.

[Andrew]

I think that's right. Like, I. It's. It's always hard to balance that with, like, I'm asking for you to give me midichlorians. Like, I, I'm looking, I'm looking to dig down until I hit the midichlorians phase of this, where you've explained it too much and it's super boring and actually works against the purposes that you were originally.

[Craig]

Yeah. And there's always, for me, as you were explaining it earlier, like, I don't know that I want the version of the story that winds up with them, like, punching the bad president, you know, like, yeah, right. And we have to find out that one of them's related to the Pres. Like, it's so you can. You can see how you're. Like, your desire to make the novel hang together can, like, put characters in a room in a way that feels extra contrived. And this format means you don't have to contrive as much stuff. Stuff can just kind of happen and then it's over because you can just kind of.

[Andrew]

You can look at the reader and you can shrug and you'd be like, you know, the book's not that long. I just couldn't fit it. I'm really sorry. I just couldn't fit it.

[Craig]

Page at the end of the book. Like, this is all the ideas I had that didn't make it in. Yeah, honestly, that would be kind of dope.

[Andrew]

I'm really sorry. I just couldn't fit it.

[Craig]

And Katie Dorney said the writing was enjoyable, beautiful at points, as was the plot. The ending was a little rushed. Maybe it should have been a novel. An enjoyable Novella focusing on queer women, but with a protagonist I could not for the life of me root for. Did you have any problems rooting for.

[Andrew]

Esther or have any problems rooting with her? Like, she, she's more. She's more cipherish, I think, then maybe.

[Craig]

Sure. Okay.

[Andrew]

And that. That's. That. That's another thing that the Murderbot comparison brings up is like, Murderbot is so distinctive and memorable.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Not quite blank, slatey, but like so much a collection of things that you've kind of encountered before in other stories.

[Craig]

And that can be tricky, too, when you're, When. When the story is about them, about your. Your main character who is discovering themself, being introduced to other characters. And so, like, you have to spend as much time having them react to folks that they haven't met before that you're not, like, diving into their own psychology as, like, the interesting exercise of the, of the storytelling when you get.

[Andrew]

You get some interesting things, like when she's trying to lie to the librarians at the start, like, BET and later so that she can become part of the. Part of the posse, as it were.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, she's got.

[Andrew]

She's. Oh, she's like, oh, if I, If I keep my eyes open for as long as I possibly can, then they'll start watering and I'll look like I'm crying. And it's you. You can, you can draw. You know, she. She is the daughter of some powerful man who was promised to be the wife of this other man. And then she was in a secret lesbian relationship with this woman. Like, probably she has had occasion to figure out how to lie. Well, yeah, but that sort of thing is left to be mostly subtext.

[Craig]

Sure, sure, sure. Last thing I have for you, Andrew. This is a little bit on the future thing, and then we'll hang it up here. This is from our discord patreon.com overdue pod if you want to join us. Talking about these books in advance of recording, Nora said the little reminder. One thing that Nora liked about the book, the little reminders that the book is set in the future were jarring in a fun way. Just a bunch of people riding around on horses and wagons talking about drones. Any other, like, fun, like, this is the future somehow stuff that struck you, or did it feel a little further removed that there weren't too many winks and nods? That is a funny image. I do like that.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you do find out about that in. In the context of, like, the sweatshops where they make kids repair drones. Because they've got little hands.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

You know, there's. I. It. There's nothing in here where anybody is, like, thinking about, like, iPhones or whatever.

[Craig]

What if they were playing Candy Crush right now?

[Andrew]

Yeah, there's nothing like that. That stuck out to me too much.

[Craig]

But it's funny.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but it is. Yes, that is funny.

[Craig]

All right. Well, Andrew, thanks for telling me about this book. I'm glad you seem to enjoy it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it was a fun one.

[Craig]

It was nice to have a fun one.

[Andrew]

It's dealing with some, like, heavy stuff, but it's pretty breezy in and of itself. Like, it's. It's. It's here to make a point that is fundamentally optimistic. It's not really, like, moping too much or, like, wallowing around too much. It's meant to be affirming. And I think that's how it reads. And, you know, I think that core message of, you know, keep going there, there are more people out there who are like you than you think. Or then it feels like. And even if things seem hopeless, maybe you don't know what's going to happen.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

So, like, those are important messages to digest.

[Craig]

Send us an email about your favorite new old west tale. Overdupodmail.com hit us up on social media verdupod. You can talk to us on Instagram and Bluesky most of the time. Thanks to Becky, Jeremy, Rosalie, Erica, Katie, Claire and more for reaching out in the past week or so. Our theme song is composed by Nick Luarangis. Andrew, if folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

They go overduepodcast.com that's the old Internet website that you go to to find out more about our show and the books that we have read and the ones we are going to read. We do have bookshop.org links to those books on the website. If you do need to read along or if you hear us talk about a book and you're like, oh, that sounds like my thing, you can go there and buy the book. Independent bookseller gets a cut and we get a cut and you get a book and we don't talk about it a lot, but it's a cool thing. I'm glad that we're still doing. Patreon.com overduepod, as Craig mentioned earlier, is a way to get even more of this stuff. You like what you just heard? Go get even more of [e-mail] overduepod in exchange for cold hard cash that we use to buy cold hard books and cold hard computers and cold hard microphones and stuff.

[Craig]

Cold hard childcare and cold water and child care.

[Andrew]

People who support us. Thank you so much. The show wouldn't be possible without you. Like we would have stopped doing it a million years ago.

[Craig]

Yep, it's true.

[Andrew]

So you in a very real way. Like, you know, obviously we like each other and we like reading books, but you make it possible to keep making the time and so thank you for doing that. Bonus episodes are up there. We do streams every month. We've been playing some games lately together. It's been fun.

[Craig]

Come through.

[Andrew]

And then we just started our latest long read project, the Silly Marillion about J.R.R. tolkien's the Silmarillion. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to read a hobbit Bible? That's what the Silmarillion is, baby. Come on in. Patreon.com overdue pod Craig, what are you reading next week?

[Craig]

I am reading the Trial by Franz Kafka.

[Andrew]

I can't wait to hear about who gets turned into a bug in this one.

[Craig]

I haven't gone back to the start yet.

[Andrew]

I assume that that is the trial that is being talked about is I was turned into a bug and then.

[Craig]

I went to court.

[Andrew]

This is ruining my whole week. What a trial this is.

[Craig]

I do as I'm reading it. I think the use of the name trial may mean more than one thing. It's all I'm. That's all I got so far.

[Andrew]

If I brought raisins and peanuts to a courtroom, would it be trial mix? Anyway, that's one for everybody to munch on and think about until we're back next week. Until we talk to you. Then everybody please try to be happy.

[Craig]

In a Gorp of law.

[Andrew]

That was a Headgum podcast.