Ep 715 - Mrs. Caliban, by Rachel Ingalls

Summary

Overdue Podcast Episode 715 - "Mrs. Caliban" by Rachel Ingalls

Release Date: August 11, 2025

In Episode 715 of Overdue, hosted by Andrew and Craig from Headgum, the duo delves into "Mrs. Caliban" by Rachel Ingalls. This comprehensive discussion navigates the novel's unique blend of romance and speculative fiction, providing listeners with an engaging overview, thematic analysis, and critical insights.

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Introduction to "Mrs. Caliban"

Andrew and Craig introduce "Mrs. Caliban" as a trope-rich novel that explores unconventional relationships between humans and mythical creatures. They highlight the book's blend of domestic drama with fantastical elements, setting the stage for their deep dive.

"This is such a tropey book. You know that old trope where a giant lizard man wanders into your kitchen and you immediately strike up a physical relationship with it?"
— Andrew [03:58]

Author Background: Rachel Ingalls

Rachel Ingalls, born in 1940 in Boston, was the daughter of a Sanskrit scholar. She moved to Europe in the 1960s, where she immersed herself in the British literary scene. Ingalls authored several novels, with "Mrs. Caliban" being among her most notable works. The novel gained significant acclaim when it was named one of the 20 best novels by American authors since World War II by the British Marketing Council in 1986.

"Rachel Ingalls, born in 1940, passed away in 2018. She was born in Boston, daughter of a Sanskrit scholar..."
— Craig [06:13]

Plot Overview

"Mrs. Caliban" centers on Dorothy, a frustrated housewife grappling with the loss of her children and a strained marriage to Fred. Dorothy's mundane life takes a dramatic turn when Larry, a 6'7" frog-like creature, breaks into her kitchen seeking help. As Dorothy shelters Larry, an unexpected romantic relationship blossoms between them, challenging societal norms and personal boundaries.

"Dorothy has been like. She likes to put on. She likes to listen to the radio..."
— Andrew [18:21]

Thematic Exploration

The hosts delve into the novel's exploration of intimacy, identity, and the clash between the ordinary and the extraordinary. They discuss how Randalls uses the fantastical element of a frog-like creature to probe deeper emotional and societal issues.

"She says, it came from growing up watching Hollywood horror movies where the monster is more exciting than the drippy boyfriend or husband."
— Craig [13:12]

Character Dynamics

Dorothy and Larry's relationship is analyzed as a metaphor for seeking connection beyond conventional boundaries. The introduction of Estelle, Dorothy's friend, adds layers of complexity as hidden affairs and personal conflicts intertwine with the central romance.

"Estelle is wronging Dorothy behind Dorothy's back for years in multiple ways."
— Andrew [36:12]

Critical Reception and Comparisons

"Mrs. Caliban" is compared to works like Guillermo del Toro's "The Shape of Water" and the Russian film "Amphibian Man", which also explore human relationships with mythical creatures. The hosts note the novel's resurgence in popularity, especially following its 2017 reissue by New Directions.

"It is a cool book to read, but it is. It does just kind of happen to you."
— Andrew [12:11]

Discussion on Ambiguity and Reality

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the novel's ambiguity regarding the reality of Larry. While Larry performs actions that suggest his reality, such as hotwiring cars and engaging in violent encounters, the book leaves room for interpretation about his true nature.

"There's tons of ambiguity about it and, like, nobody else ever sees, like, the only."
— Andrew [42:14]

Goodreads and Listener Reviews

The hosts reference Goodreads reviews to highlight varied reader experiences. Some praise the novel's imaginative premise, while others critique its rapid plot developments and melodramatic elements.

"Elizabeth says, one of the strangest books I've ever had to read for class."
— Craig [48:22]

Final Insights and Personal Impressions

Andrew and Craig share their personal enjoyment of the book, despite its unconventional and sometimes jarring plot twists. They appreciate the book's ability to blend humor with deep emotional undercurrents, making it a memorable read.

"It's a weird book and I did have a good time with it and I liked it a lot."
— Andrew [43:39]

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Conclusion

Episode 715 of Overdue offers a thorough exploration of Rachel Ingalls' "Mrs. Caliban," blending plot discussion with thematic analysis and critical reception. Andrew and Craig provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the novel's strengths and its place within the speculative romance genre, making it a valuable resource for those contemplating adding it to their reading list.

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For more insights and discussions, visit Overdue Podcast and follow them on social media at @overdupod.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a headgun podcast.

[Craig]

Oh, hey.

[Andrew]

Hey. Thanks for meeting me here on such short notice. This place isn't bugged, is it?

[Craig]

Bugged?

[Andrew]

Wait, Jamie, what's going on? It's just you're my only lawyer friend and I need your professional opinion. Do you see that brand new Hyundai Tucson out there? Yeah, that's all I paid for it. Ah, I think I need to get.

[Craig]

Back to you on that.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Your business, but if that's all she.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Craig]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

Offer ends September 2nd. Call 562-314-4603 for details. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy.

[Craig]

Of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy.

[Andrew]

Away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by.

[Craig]

It's the summer cold that does me in.

[Andrew]

Summer cold. My summer's hot.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Summer. My summer is hot. Hot, hot.

[Craig]

Humid, humid, humid.

[Andrew]

You've got a summer cold.

[Craig]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

What's your favorite fish?

[Andrew]

I like a. Like a tuna steak, but I do not like a canned tuna because it smells bad.

[Craig]

I was wondering if you would give me fish to eat or just your favorite fish? Like, do you like fish at all?

[Andrew]

I don't, like, think about. I don't think about them that much. I mean, we just did Jaws, so I guess my favorite fish to, like, compensate. Our favorite fish should be. My favorite living fish to see is a shark.

[Craig]

It's shark.

[Andrew]

Because at the aquarium in Camden. Camden, Camden, Camden. They got sharks you can walk under. They got sharks you can walk over.

[Craig]

That's true. Yeah. You don't. You can sub or bottom those sharks.

[Andrew]

Wait, you can be on any axis relative to the sharks that you want at the Camden Aquarium. And Henry likes looking at them, so I like them, but yeah, Mostly I'm thinking about like, we, we don't. Susanna doesn't eat red meat. And so functionally, I don't.

[Craig]

Yeah, you gotta just.

[Andrew]

Fine.

[Craig]

We don't do the red meat, we don't do the pork.

[Andrew]

So. Yeah, I, I, that's why I like chicken thighs and like tuna steak so much.

[Craig]

Sure is pretty good.

[Andrew]

This is pretty good.

[Craig]

Yep, I like it.

[Andrew]

Zan doesn't like them. Cause they're too much like meat. Oh, well, she says, yeah, well.

[Craig]

I like a catfish to look like you eat.

[Andrew]

You like to be catfished, huh?

[Craig]

That's different. Words have different meanings. Sometimes.

[Andrew]

You like when someone brings you into a restaurant promising you catfish and then serves you something else.

[Craig]

Uh oh, a subpoena. Welcome to our book podcast, where each week one of us reads a book and tells the other person about it. I promise this was all relevant. Andrew, what book did you read for this week's show?

[Andrew]

Well, well, well. I read Mrs. Caliban by Rachel Ingalls.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

This is such a tropey book. You know that old trope where a giant lizard man wanders into your kitchen and you immediately strike up a physical relationship with it?

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

And it fills a hole in your life that you never thought could be filled before things end in tragedy. We've read a million of these.

[Craig]

It's true.

[Andrew]

We have a million books just like this.

[Craig]

It is funny that you say that trope because when Guillermo del Toro made the movie the Shape of Water, a lot of people came out of the woodwork to be like, they based it on this fish love book or this fish loving movie. A lot of people had made them before in some way shape. Enough people had made their own take on what if I Love a Fish Guy?

[Andrew]

Can't even make a movie about someone having sex with a fish without it, without it all getting linked back to Mrs. Caliban.

[Craig]

It's true. Apparently there was a Russian film called Amphibian man that was a very, you know, successful film that people thought maybe Del Toro had plagiarized.

[Andrew]

People were rushing out to see it.

[Craig]

Okay. I'd never heard of this book before, Andrew.

[Andrew]

I never heard of it before either. I found it on a list of, like, short, beachy reads, and they do spend some time on a beach. And it is short. Yes, it's a romance. It's a romance of sorts.

[Craig]

The story of Ingalls. And this book appears to be people going, you ever heard of this?

[Andrew]

You ever heard it? Because nobody read it for like four years. And then it came up on some, like, list of good books.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And then it became kind of a cult hit. I don't know. Like.

[Craig]

And then it became another one 30 years later or 40 years later.

[Andrew]

You'll have to tell me about that one. I'm thinking about that book, the Canadian book where the. What lady sleeps with the bear? You know, for the What? You know, that one. The one where the lady sleeps with a bear.

[Craig]

What? The Canadian book where a lady sleeps with a bear. It's called.

[Andrew]

It's called Bear by Marion Ingle.

[Craig]

Okay. I don't know this book.

[Andrew]

I just. Like, maybe we could read that one.

[Craig]

Maybe that's not a trope I'm familiar with. Anyway, Rachel ingalls, born in 1940, passed away in 2018. She was born in Boston, daughter of a Sanskrit scholar.

[Andrew]

I just want. If you're. If you're at home and you heard us ask, what's the Canadian book where the lady sleeps with a bear, and you were the one yelling bear at the top of your lungs to your iPhone or whatever. Like, I just. I need you to. I'm not judging you. I'm just like, know yourself, you know?

[Craig]

Well, no, I want you. I want to know you.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I know. I'm like. I'm impressed, mostly.

[Craig]

And her father was a Sanskrit scholar. Her mother was a homemaker. She was nicknamed Taffy, her choice, short for a character from a Kipling story that she liked. She lived in Germany for a year. She. I think she kind of dropped out of high school or something, was not enthused with it, Moved to Germany, learned enough German to study at Gottingen University.

[Andrew]

Took up with a lizard monster.

[Craig]

I. I don't. I didn't see that.

[Andrew]

But I'm not sure if this is autobiographical anyway.

[Craig]

That. I don't know. I'm taking a lot of this from the 2019 New York Times obituary. Does that mean that she passed away in 2019 or 20?

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

No, I said 2018. My mistake.

[Andrew]

Yep.

[Craig]

And then she.

[Andrew]

Usually people do the obituaries.

[Craig]

That's what I was confused. I'm looking at the URL.

[Andrew]

Sound like I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get around to this one.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Later.

[Craig]

She did come back to the States for a bit and then moved to Europe in 1964. Went to Stratford Upon Avon, moved to London, and basically stayed there the rest of her life. Would come back and visit family sometimes. Her first book, Theft in 1970, won the authors Club First Novel award, which is apparently typically reserved for British authors, But she was American, and they said well, this is written in English, and we like it. So here you go.

[Andrew]

Representation is so important.

[Craig]

She writes Mrs. Caliban in 1982. And in 1986, the British Marketing Council names it one of the 20 best novels by American writers since World War II.

[Andrew]

Okay, so these were just British people who did not know any books by American writer.

[Craig]

They just picked 20 interesting books that. By American authors and said, so, like, John Updike's on that list. Like, people. Other people we have heard of are on that list. I think Updike wound up reviewing this book, which is a little ironic. And he liked it and so.

[Andrew]

Ironic.

[Craig]

What.

[Andrew]

Why is that ironic?

[Craig]

Well, it's coincidental, I suppose. You've heard the song it's ironic.

[Andrew]

Thank you.

[Craig]

Speaking of Canada. And she, you know, gets some notices for it in the mid-80s because everyone's like, wow, this is. This is apparently one of the best 20 best books in America. We should read this book. And then again, it kind of passes into obscurity. And that is kind of the way she liked it. She purportedly, you know, according to her family and friends, speaking after her passing, that she really enjoyed people not really knowing anything about her. And then I could.

[Andrew]

I could also see, like, not wanting to be approached on the street about this one, maybe.

[Craig]

Sure. And then in 2017, this book is reissued by the publisher New Directions, who quote, unquote rediscovered, got a lot of attention at the time. The Shape of Water was, like, coming out or had just come out. There were two screenplays of this book that had been. That had been, like, written but never published and never filmed. People had tried to make their own. Their own fish sex movie based on this book, I guess. And so she was diagnosed with cancer around this time, 2017, 2018. She had other bouts with it before, and her friends and family say that. Okay, now that everybody's, like, enjoying this book of hers, she's actually kind of, like, digging in the limelight. She's doing interviews.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

She's like, a little freedom in her, you know, dealing with the disease and getting the attention is just kind of like, why not this time? Why not, like, lean into it? Yeah, you get.

[Andrew]

You get another chance to, like, do a round of press for a book that you wrote, like, 35 years ago. Just, like, just go for it.

[Craig]

Well, and not many authors don't come.

[Andrew]

At me about Matt. I'm so tired.

[Craig]

Not many authors get to, like, kind of do a new press tour for a book.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

From 30 years ago. Yeah. And she wrote, like, a dozen Novels or so she did. I think at one point in an interview talk about that she would write novels of what she called an unsalable length of like 40 to 125 pages. She really likes the long short story slash novella.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we did that. We did that one episode not that long ago, I think. Was it our War and Peace episode where we talked about the length of licking novella versus a novel?

[Craig]

Maybe.

[Andrew]

We went into this recently, but yeah, I totally like. You don't want to be in that. That. That you don't want to fall in between those couch cushions.

[Craig]

As an author, the. The New York times review from 1986 basically taught is like a half review, half a. Check out this book that the Brits made famous for no reason.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

And it calls it sketchy, incomplete, maddening, but totally unforgettable. So like the.

[Andrew]

It is cool. It's a fun book to read, but it is. It does just kind of happen to you.

[Craig]

Yeah, the book, she had another novel in it came out a few years later called the act that was then also, you know, reissued in 2023, I think, which is about sex robots. Like a man makes a sex robot in his attic and his wife doesn't like it. And then she makes him. Well, yeah, and then the. She makes him make a sex robot for her, but then it like teaches her Italian instead of having sex with her. Like, just seems really wacky kind of stuff. She.

[Andrew]

Duo. This duolingo app is broken.

[Craig]

The review of that in. In the Times talks about her weaving B movie kitsch into the already eerie afternoons of airless domesticity.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

She. In interviews. There was an interview with lit Hub with her in 2018 that talks about her. You know, she grew up listening to Grimm's fairy tales. She liked mythology. But she also grew up listening to a lot of like, pulp radio and watching monster movies.

[Andrew]

Right. Yeah. And the. The. The monster in this, I. I think you can imagine any one of several, like old Universal Pictures movie monsters in the role. And that's.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's when somebody refers to her work as. She says that it came from growing up watching Hollywood horror movies where the monster is more exciting than the drippy boyfriend or husband.

[Andrew]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Craig]

And when. When asked in that lithub interview why so many of her books are focused on like, marriage and kind of taking these trophy things and smashing them into a domestic scene, she said, it seems to me that in order to have any strong connection or rupture between characters, there has to be a sense of intimacy. So that marriage Will or family relationships are ideal backgrounds for drama of any kind, tragic or comic. She's not the first person to say that, of course, but it does explain why a lot of her work is here is a restless domestic situation, and now something weird's gonna happen.

[Andrew]

What if people were having sex with something else?

[Craig]

That might be what some of them are about. I'm not sure.

[Andrew]

I mean, that's what at least two of them are about. This one and the robo one.

[Craig]

You're right. You're right. So that's all. That's what I've got on Rachel Ingalls. It's kind of fun that she got kind of a little plucked from obscurity when the book was pretty recent and then plucked from obscurity again just because, like 30 years later. That's cool.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I like that. We get. We kind of get. Over the years we've been doing the show, we've kind of encountered every form of famous that you could possibly be for something. And yeah, this one, this one's unique. I don't think we've done this one.

[Craig]

Wrote a funky little fish tale, and every 30 years someone goes, this one's good.

[Andrew]

This one. Well, I'm sorry to be bringing it up too soon after the last Fair enough anniversary, but I think it's going to be okay.

[Craig]

I think we'll be okay. So let's dive into the water, Andrew, and we'll resurface with a tale of love and scales.

[Andrew]

Foreign.

[Craig]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. You ever felt overwhelmed searching for quality content about mental health online? I mean, you could just say overwhelmed searching for quality content online, writ large.

[Andrew]

I suppose, yes.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

Heard of here first.

[Craig]

What?

[Andrew]

You heard it here first.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Craig likes therapy.

[Craig]

I do. I think it's a good thing. You don't need a fish man to change your life. You can be empowered to be the best self that you can be by talking with a licensed therapist. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient as well, Andrew. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button. Fit it right into your busy life. You don't need to wait for your fish man to arrive. Just click the button. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. So talk it out. With BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month of BetterHelp.com overdue. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com overdue. All right, Andrew, just keep swimming. Just keep podcasting. Tell me about this fish book.

[Andrew]

It's. Man, what a, what a. What a book. What a feast for the sense.

[Craig]

Oh, it's got tastes and smells.

[Andrew]

I. Yeah, I, you know, I, I don't do. I don't think either of us does a lot of like, pre book research. Like sometimes if I'm. If.

[Craig]

Oh, when you're gonna read it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. So, like some. Aside from, you know, whatever blurb or whatever it is that you see on, like the list that you got it off of or the site that you bought it from, like, you see, you get. You get a little tiny snippety snippet.

[Craig]

But it's a choice that has ever burned us, but it is a choice that we make.

[Andrew]

It's a choice that we make. So, yeah, I did not, did not know much about this book going in.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And so I picked it up and I was reading it and I was like, okay, here's Dorothy. She is a sort of a frustrated housewife character.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

At one point she is asked how old she is in the, you know, in, in the. Relative to her like the rest of her species and like, if she's young or middle or old. And she says she's like halfway between young and middle, which is an interesting kind of zone.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Live in to feel like you're in. And she, she is in a marriage with this guy named Fred. They are not, they do not really get along because there's been tragedy that struck their family. They lost a baby and then a slightly older kid also died of like, some fluke surgery. Okay. And so, yeah, that, that kind of came in between them and has made it impossible for them to talk to or relate to each other. And so they're just kind of going through the motions of their. Of their lives.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And not. Yeah. Married. But no longer connected in any meaningful way.

[Craig]

This is a setup for many a moving book play film that I've read Or seen.

[Andrew]

I love book play films or watched or experienced where.

[Craig]

Yeah. Senseless tragedy strikes a family. The family feels like it can never recover, and someone, you know, retreats emotionally or otherwise seeks other things.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And so Dorothy has been like. She likes to put on. She likes to listen to the radio. It's not 100% clear, like, when the book takes place. Yeah.

[Craig]

Is it in 1982 or is it in, like, late 60s?

[Andrew]

It could be anytime after TV, but.

[Craig]

Before computer, I think a little between young and middle.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like after. After tv, but before computer.

[Craig]

Okay. Well, you know, I know if I.

[Andrew]

Had said, like, after computer, but before iPhone, you also wouldn't know.

[Craig]

I know. There's also a few.

[Andrew]

Like, really.

[Craig]

There's a few really thin sedimentary layers between there where it's like, before.

[Andrew]

Like, people have cell phones, but they're not smartphones.

[Craig]

Well, do people have VHS tapes? You know, do people. Have they heard of Bill Clinton? Like, you know, a couple, like, thin slices of the 20th century.

[Andrew]

Sure. I'm thinking more about technological advances so big that they change how sitcoms work.

[Craig]

Yes, of course.

[Andrew]

Like, how every episode of Seinfeld is just about people not being able to talk to each other from anywhere.

[Craig]

If they had a cell phone, that whole show would be different. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, people can. People in Seinfeld just can't just text each other to talk about whatever situation they're in. And that's where all the comedy. Like, almost all the comedy comes from.

[Craig]

Yes, correct.

[Andrew]

But. So after tv, but before computer.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Dorothy likes to listen to the radio, and the radio comes on, and sometimes, like, it's making. It's like saying weird sentences to her like, dorothy, everything's gonna be all right. And so she's kind of having. She's living in this world where she's not always sure if the stuff on the radio is, like, real or not.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Andrew]

Or if she's losing it a little bit.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And so this report comes on the radio about this giant, like, lizard alligator thing that is, like, broken containment from some facility.

[Craig]

A sea monster.

[Andrew]

Yes. It has killed a couple of guys. It's to be considered extremely dangerous. And you're supposed to. You're supposed to. You're supposed to call it in. If you see the big. If you see the big lizard monster, you're supposed to call. You're supposed to call it in.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Dorothy is in the kitchen. She is, like, Fred has brought some business associate over for some meal. And she's in the kitchen, and she's preparing the food, and she is only she's on the sort of autopilot that you can, you can be on when you're in the kitchen, like doing something you've done a million times.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And she turns around and. Let me just read you what happened. She came back into the kitchen fast to make sure that she caught the toasting cheese in time. And she was halfway across the checked linoleum floor of her nice safe kitchen when the screen door opened and a gigantic 6 foot 7 inch frog like creature shouldered its way into the house and stood stock still in front of her, crouching slightly and staring straight at her face. She stopped before she knew she had stopped and looked without realizing that she was taking anything in. She was as surprised and shocked as if she had heard an explosion and seen her own shattered legs go flying across the floor. There's a space between him and the place where she was standing. It was like a gap in time. She saw how slowly everything was happening. She felt that he was frowning at her, but he hadn't moved yet. Her mouth was slightly open. She could feel that. And waves of horrific fled across her skin or ice. A flash of heat or ice sped up her backbone and neck and over her scalp so that her hair really did seem to lift up. And her stomach hurt.

[Craig]

So after tv, before computer, before icy.

[Andrew]

Hot heat or ice, and before ASMR also.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So she, she sees this creature and then, and then like the toasts, the cheese starts burning and just, she goes. And she tends to the oven. And then the lizard monster is like, help me. And she's like, okay. I guess.

[Craig]

It speaks English.

[Andrew]

It speaks English. Okay. It's, you know, it's, it's a tall, you know, it's tall, but it's not so tall that it would be totally alien to, to a human.

[Craig]

No, but six seven is tall.

[Andrew]

Six seven is tall. It is tall.

[Craig]

And I, what I, what I love about 67 in the text of the book is that I can't tell if that's Dorothy, like spotting six seven. Just like knowing that that's how tall it is or if that's just Ingles. I think it's just Ingles trying to.

[Andrew]

I think it's just Ingles telling us fish cabal, the big frog monster. You keep calling it a fish. It's more of a frog.

[Craig]

Fair enough.

[Andrew]

It's more. Right. More reptilian than fishy.

[Craig]

Okay, okay, fair enough.

[Andrew]

It's certainly, it certainly swims. It lives in the ocean.

[Craig]

Well, this frog, this frog has ups. You know, this frog could play with the bulls. I think we're before Jordan if it's 82.

[Andrew]

So true, true, true.

[Craig]

Now we're just.

[Andrew]

We're just narrowing. We're narrowing down the amount it's after. After tv, before computer, before Michael Jordan.

[Craig]

Only two years before Michael Jordan. We got this fish. Got to get ready.

[Andrew]

Sorry.

[Craig]

He's a frog. Anyway, fish by sneakers, too.

[Andrew]

Craig.

[Craig]

Oh, my goodness. So he's. So he's in the kitchen, and she's burning cheese.

[Andrew]

She's burning cheese. He surprised her, and he's like, help me. And she's like, okay. And she puts him in a spare room that used to be the kid's room. And that's the reason why the. That's why Fred never wants to go in there.

[Craig]

That's actually genius.

[Andrew]

It's actually kind of genius. There's gotta be a room in the house that has a TV and space. But Fred can never want to go in there because he has to.

[Craig]

Look. Does he learn about human culture from tv?

[Andrew]

He learned something about human culture.

[Craig]

This is like Hot Frosty.

[Andrew]

Like, dancing and stuff. Hot Frosty.

[Craig]

That was that Netflix movie about the snowman that came to life and he was hot. It's called Hot Frosty.

[Andrew]

It sounds like a very bad and temporary Wendy's beverage. You like our. You like our cold Frosties? Wait till you have all the Hot frosty.

[Craig]

Frost film was very not sexual, which is a bit of a bummer called Hot Frosty.

[Andrew]

But, yeah, it doesn't sound hot at all.

[Craig]

Anyway, tell me more about this.

[Andrew]

Hot Frosty is like a clay fighter.

[Craig]

Yeah, it is like a clay fighter. Alt. Yes.

[Andrew]

So she. She takes him into the. Into the bedroom and is hiding him. It's kind of like feeding him salad. I think that's their first successful interaction as he, like, gives her some. Or she gives him some vegetable that she was planning on putting in a salad, and he eats it. And that's, like, how they establish that they don't mutually pose any particular threat to each other.

[Craig]

Does he disclose why he came into her house? Like, what.

[Andrew]

He's just. He just needs help.

[Craig]

Uh, oh, okay.

[Andrew]

And so she has him in the spare room, and she goes in there and she sits with him, and, like, all of a sudden, they are having sex with each other.

[Craig]

What?

[Andrew]

It really. It is really. It's really one of the first things that passes between them. Yeah. So he. He eats vegetables. He goes to bed. They, like, wake up in the morning. They see. She sees Fred off. She goes in to check on him, and he's like, what's that? With. What's that weird, like clothes you're wearing and it's a bathrobe or something. Okay. He's like, well, it's just. It's just a bathrobe.

[Craig]

Does he wear clothes?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Not all the time, though, if you know what I mean.

[Craig]

But did he come in with clothes?

[Andrew]

I don't think so.

[Craig]

Okay, sorry, go ahead. She's wearing a bathrobe.

[Andrew]

It's just my bathrobe over my nightgown. What I was wearing last night was more for a party, but not formal. It was. Well, which do you like better? This, you think it's fancier, more special. And my hair this way? Better this way. Is it? Because the dress and the hair are long now, and last night the dress was shorter and the hair was up. I understand now. He said, I like these things unrestricted. It isn't a matter of the rules of clothing. It's a question of freedom. And then they take the. Takes the bathrobe off and then they fall into the bed and then they do bone each other a couple of times.

[Craig]

Huh?

[Andrew]

And that is just what the rest of the book is about, is she. Is. She is harboring this, this fish creature whose name is Larry. And he does, he does get off one of those like, oh, you know, you couldn't pronounce it in your language. Things about.

[Craig]

Call me Larry.

[Andrew]

Name is. Yeah, but you know, his name is Larry because that's the name that they gave him in the lab. They did lots of bad things to him in the lab. You know, experiments. That sort of typical mad scientist monster stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah, okay.

[Andrew]

And so she, she has sympathy for him. She has in the back of her mind maybe that if they got caught, they could go to the papers and like, expose and expose the people at the laboratory. And then there would be a case that would go up to the Supreme Court where either he would be a sentient creature who was. Who killed people in self defense, or he's not a sentient creature and so cannot be held any more liable for killing anybody. Could be. She's not a lawyer. She just like thinks a lot. Okay, but she is thinking about the Supreme Court in this book. She doesn't, but she doesn't mention who any of the justices are, so that does not help us, you know, put this on the timescale between TV and computer the way we've been trying to do.

[Craig]

Okay, fair enough.

[Andrew]

But she's, you know, Larry loves avocados, so she's going out. What a millennial buying him just, like, big bags of avocados.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And Fred notices, and he's like, why are you buying all these avocados? They're gonna go bad. And she's like, don't you worry about it.

[Craig]

Yeah. Like, what does Fred think is. How much access do we get to Fred during some of these?

[Andrew]

He's not paying enough attention. He's just, like, in and out. He's like a ghost. He doesn't want to go in. He doesn't go into the room where Larry is, and he doesn't care enough about what Dorothy is doing to keep any kind of tabs on her. So when she and Larry start going out for, like, joy rides at night, and she, like, teaches him how to drive so he can go out and, like, hotwire a car to drive it somewhere and see stuff. Because he. Craig, he wants to hotwire someone else's car because he doesn't want somebody to see Dorothy's car and be able to track him.

[Craig]

Well, he's a very considerate frog.

[Andrew]

He's a very considerate frog. Fish, monster, man.

[Craig]

But what does he need to see? Like, what does he.

[Andrew]

He just. It's a. It's a whole new world, Craig. It's like. It's like in the Disney movies where somebody from one world goes into another world and sings a little song about it and just needs to see all the. And, like, you know, comb the hair with a dinglehopper and all that. You know, all that stuff.

[Craig]

Can you remind me? I know you mentioned that there were experiments involved in wherever. What created him.

[Andrew]

Are you gonna ask me anything specific about the experiments? Because it's not important.

[Craig]

I just. Well, I just. If it's not important, that's okay. I just. I'm curious, like, if it's a Ninja Turtle situation.

[Andrew]

I do not think it is a. Like, he was a frog who was turned into a monster, man. It is a. There is a society of monster men out there.

[Craig]

Okay, great.

[Andrew]

Okay. Somewhere.

[Craig]

Thank you. Helpful.

[Andrew]

Live in the Gulf. Who live in the Gulf of Mexico.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

So that positions it in time. Also is still called the Gulf of Mexico.

[Craig]

Still called the Gulf of Mexico. Because this.

[Andrew]

Honestly, I will say they're in California. I believe they're on the. Like, they hatch a plan at one point to, like, drive down through Mexico to get him close enough where he could, like, swim back to his people. So he's from some other civilization and.

[Craig]

He wants to get back.

[Andrew]

He does. He. He would not mind getting back.

[Craig]

Okay, cool. Okay.

[Andrew]

He also seems to be okay with what he's. What he's currently doing, which is having sex with a pretty lady and watching a lot of TV all the time, which is. I mean, that's a dream.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

From being honest.

[Craig]

There is an Edward Albee play that won the Pulitzer Prize in 1975, Tiny Frogman called Seascape. And it is about a couple on a beach who encounter a couple of, like, lizard people that come out of the ocean.

[Andrew]

Huh.

[Craig]

And are like, we've evolved enough that we don't feel comfortable with the other lizards. We need to, like, figure out what else is going on. And they also. And then it's about whether or not they feel comfortable with the humans and what they learn about humanity.

[Andrew]

Like, it's.

[Craig]

It is a weird play. I remember reading it, you know, 20 years ago.

[Andrew]

Sounds like a weird one.

[Craig]

But it is like a. The humans are, you know, they have their foibles exposed by having these, like, non humans come up and be like, why are you that way? What? That's weird. Why would you behave that way?

[Andrew]

There are definitely some threads in here of like, oh, this fish man is different from people. And so people are really angry about it. Like, it's not. It's not trying to be a book about race or any or gender or anything like that, but it is like, there is a point in the book where they are. They do, you know, because Larry likes to watch TV and Dorothy likes to listen to the radio. Like, they have an ear on.

[Craig]

They're just Netflix chilling all the time.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, people. They have a sense of how people be talking about this escaped frog monster.

[Craig]

Yeah. Okay, okay, okay.

[Andrew]

And the meat. The media, the lamestream media has blown this up into such a thing that now if Larry were to come forward, there would just be like, a mob with torches and pitchforks.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Trying to get him. Like, it's. Public opinion has been poisoned too much against Larry the frog monster.

[Craig]

I guess what I'm also asking, is there any, like, how much of the book is Larry kind of asking Dorothy, like, why humans are the way they are? Like, is that a bunch of it?

[Andrew]

Yeah, kind of a bunch of it.

[Craig]

A bunch of it?

[Andrew]

Yeah, kind of a bunch of it.

[Craig]

What kind of stuff?

[Andrew]

That's just like, this is like a lot of. It's. It's the. The clothing thing, like, relationship things like parenting things like how unique any individual person is from, like, the rest of society. I guess the. The frog monster society. People are a lot more similar to each other. And one thing Larry is worried about is that he's gonna come back after being away for a while, and he's gonna be, like, too different.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yes.

[Andrew]

And like, and. And Dorothy kind of wonders, like, am I gonna sneeze on this, on my. My frog monster lover and send germs disease?

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

Right. Am I gonna smallpox blanket my frog boyfriend?

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, kind of a bunch of it. But okay, so they are doing this. Dorothy also has a friend. Her name is Estelle.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Estelle is a divorcee who has two, like, teenage children, a boy and girl, and has a couple of boyfriends who she like. She is not really exclusive with either of them, but she kind of wants one of them to ask her to marry him. And so when they're at some, like, art show and both of Estelle's boyfriends show up with, like, another woman on their arm, Estelle's like, oh, well, yep, this is great. I'm gonna go home and get drunk about it.

[Craig]

But they.

[Andrew]

You get the sense that they. They talk easily about. About a lot of things. Like, Estelle has maybe helped Dorothy through some of the.

[Craig]

Some of the rough stuff.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Some of the pain of. Of. Of losing children. And they do, you know, they do have some. Some like, pretty frank discussions about, like, you know, they're teenagers. They're just like weird zombies. I never see them. They don't want to talk to me. Like, it's. It's a Celt. Seems not particularly close with her, with her children, but that's, you know, that's kind of just a front. Obviously. She loves them so, so much, and it's just that they're in this phase where they are teenagers.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

She doesn't. But Dorothy doesn't tell Estelle about Larry the monster frogman or anything like that.

[Craig]

No. I mean, how could she?

[Andrew]

Yeah. So, you know, they're both keeping secrets from each other. Oh, say, for now, and then we'll get back to it later.

[Craig]

Somebody has their own frogman.

[Andrew]

But Dorothy and Larry are going out. They're exploring things. He's like, Larry's swimming in the ocean, and they're talking about, you know, where the different worlds that they come from. And at one point, because Larry likes to go out, as we've talked about, Larry likes to go out in hot wire cars and drive around.

[Craig]

This is so specific.

[Andrew]

This is so, like, weird. I wasn't expecting to read a book where a cool frogman, like, makes love to a woman and then goes out and, like, hotwires a car and like, Grand Theft auto drives around a Town in California. But that is just what this book is.

[Craig]

But then he brings it back to, like, where it was. Was. And then he goes back to her kid. Her dead kid's room. Like, is that what he does? Like, yeah, he doesn't. It's not like he's, like, racking up a collection of cars.

[Andrew]

No, no, no. And it's not like he's driving into a garage and then getting it painted to make all the stars go away because nobody recognizes the car anymore. No, he just, like, brings it back, puts it like it was, and then goes back to the spare room.

[Craig]

Okay, okay.

[Andrew]

But at some point, Larry goes out and he gets seen, and he gets set upon by a gang of surly teens, youths. And they try to, like, capture Larry and beat him up. And Larry kills all of them. Oh, my God. And one of the five surly teens is Estelle's son. No. Her teenage son.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

And it's all very bad. And Estelle is very distressed. And then there's another thing that's going on where Estelle's teenage daughter is, like, having some kind of relationship with an older man. And Dorothy asks Estelle, like, well, who. Who is it? Who? And Estelle also is having some other kind of. Also has some other kind of side piece situation that she seems not eager to talk to Dorothy about. And, like, Fred is all sneaking around, and you're just. You. You. The reader, start to put together the pieces that, like, something's going on with Fred and some of these people. Yeah. It turns out that Fred is having a secret affair with Estelle. And then Fred also is having sex with Estelle's teenage dog.

[Craig]

No, Fred.

[Andrew]

And so Larry and Dorothy are out on one of their. One of their outings. This is late in the book. And Dorothy keeps saying, you know, it's so dangerous. People are looking for you. You killed this boy. You killed all these boys. We should. We should not be going so near to other people. We should be staying closer to home. We should just, like, figure out our plan to go down the Gulf of Mexico and get you back home. And Larry's like, no, I want to keep exploring stuff. I want to keep showing you stuff. And they come upon Fred and Estelle's daughter having sex in the woods somewhere. And then they have, like, a weird B movie thing where Fred and Estelle's daughter are in one car and Larry and Dorothy are in another car. And they're just like, both. Everybody's driving really fast because everybody's under a lot of emotional distress. And they crash. There's no. Fred and Estelle's daughter both die in a car.

[Craig]

How very Gatsby of them.

[Andrew]

I know. So they both die in a fiery car crash.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And then Estelle. And then Dorothy sees Estelle, and Estelle's.

[Craig]

She.

[Andrew]

She goes to identify Fred's body. When she went to identify the body, Estelle was there in the corridor. She looked like a sleepwalker. She said to Dorothy in a tired whisper, you've killed me. We kept it from you for years so you wouldn't be hurt anymore. We could have been happy if it hadn' been for you. But you destroy everything around you. Now I'm like you too, even my children. That's what you wanted, wasn't it? It's like, girl.

[Craig]

So Estelle blames Dorothy.

[Andrew]

Kind of still kind of blames Dorothy. Like, she doesn't know anything about Larry. She doesn't know anything about, like, the secret Fishman relationship. That kind is kind of indirectly caused. A lot of the stuff is like, Estelle is wronging Dorothy behind Dorothy's back for years in multiple ways. And then when all of this comes to a head, Estelle's like, oh, well, oh, you wanted me to have dead kids too, right? This must. This is exactly. This is just like you drew it up, huh?

[Craig]

Huh?

[Andrew]

And Larry drives to the beach and gets away. They. They have. They kind of have like, one frantic kiss. They. They had some conversation about, like, oh, this is our beach. This is where we'll meet if we ever get separated. And Larry. Larry gets away from everybody. And she keeps going back to that beach, but he never come. He never comes back. Larry doesn't.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And that's kind of how the book ends.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

She keeps. She keeps going, and he never comes back.

[Craig]

Do you think he was real?

[Andrew]

Larry? Yeah, I think he was probably real. He doesn't. I don't guess he needs to be real for the book to work.

[Craig]

But I ask because that is, like, the word delusionary ambiguity. Things like that come up in a lot of the reviews or interviews of both on this book specifically and her other stuff.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah. There's. There's tons of ambiguity about it and, like, nobody else ever sees, like, the only. The only time you ever think that.

[Craig]

Well, that kid didn't die. Those five boys did die.

[Andrew]

Those five boys did literally die. So I guess there isn't that much ambiguity.

[Craig]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

Except for that there's a lot of.

[Craig]

Ambiguity because I was.

[Andrew]

I don't know, maybe they were just trying to beat up somebody else. And they died for some other reason.

[Craig]

Also possible.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but the only time another character. The only time you see another character seeing Larry is in, like, the Gatsby car chase at the end where Fred, like, looks over at the car and she thinks, oh, Fred must have seen Larry in this car.

[Craig]

Who was driving the car, her or Larry?

[Andrew]

I don't remember.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

I think her, but I don't remember. It's not important.

[Craig]

No, I'm building my case that what if Larry was not real? But he did.

[Andrew]

He's out hot wiring cars and killing boys.

[Craig]

Dynasty warriors. Those boys, like, he did.

[Andrew]

What's a dynasty Warios. Is that a game that I.

[Craig]

Sorry, I didn't say it correctly.

[Andrew]

I like the idea of dynasty warriors.

[Craig]

Just wario. Just, like, knocking over a hundred. Hundred Luigi. But no, that is literally what I picture. Whenever you're like, oh, and then a character got beset by more than three people and he killed all of them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's a real. It's a real dynasty warrior situation.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's definitely what it is. This seems like a weird book, Andrew.

[Andrew]

It's a weird book and I kind. I had a good time with it and I liked it a lot.

[Craig]

Did you. Were you able to, like, click into the kind of domestic commentary angle? Were you mostly drawn along by the, like, B movie frog romance?

[Andrew]

Yeah, I was mostly drawn like, what's gonna happen next with this frogman?

[Craig]

Okay. Yeah.

[Andrew]

They have a whole conversation about, like, what if the frogman gets Dorothy pregnant?

[Craig]

I bet they would have a conversation.

[Andrew]

Dorothy's like, I would be fine with that.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And they don't even know what the baby would look like. But Dorothy's, like, entertaining.

[Craig]

I just love that they're talking about it. This is a good relationship.

[Andrew]

It's very. It's a good relationship. I'm gonna bring you avocados and you get me pregnant.

[Craig]

This is.

[Andrew]

This is how it's supposed to go.

[Craig]

There's a lot of communication.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But I mean, there's this, you know, there's this whole thing where. Where Dorothy is. She's feeling desired again. She is, like, glowing in a way. She is got her groove back, recapturing, like, her sexuality and, like, looking forward to things and just, like, it seems like it's a good relationship for her generally.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Except for all the bad stuff that happens.

[Craig]

Except for all the bad stuff that happens.

[Andrew]

But it's just such a strange. You have to be along for the ride from the very beginning because the book just. The book just, like, kind of glides into what it. What, What. What it's about, you know, it's like, yes, there is. This is a world where a giant 6 foot 7 frog monster man can show up in your kitchen at any time. And you, because of some just, I don't know, vibe, feeling something.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Instead of screaming and calling the authorities, you say, how can I help you, big frog monster man? And then he apparently has parts that are compatible with your parts, and you have not had sex with anyone in a while. And you're like, all right, I guess this is happening. And their whole. And their whole relationship is like, okay, I guess this is happening. Like, it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Dorothy thinks sometimes, you know, like I mentioned the. The landmark Supreme Court case, USV Frogman. Like, she does think through the ramifications sometimes. But mostly she's just living in the moment. She's like, you know, maybe my grocery bills are gonna go up because of all the avocados I'm buying. Maybe Fred's gonna think it's weird that I'm buying so many avocados and sneaking around and spending so much time in the room that nobody goes in.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

But she's mostly. She's mostly just having a good. She's mostly just having a good time.

[Craig]

In the New York Times review of the sex robot book, book in the act.

[Andrew]

Oh, boy.

[Craig]

Audrey Wolin, who's the one who wrote about the B movie kitsch, says in her work, sexual desire often crawls into the bare shores. Onto the bare shores of women's lives. A friendly alien, if you can get past its unusual guises. I buy that.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of unusual guises in this book.

[Craig]

One of them's a frog.

[Andrew]

One of them is a frogman. Yeah. He's the most unusual guy of all.

[Craig]

Yeah. Huh. She also. Wolin also said that she had a talent for restoring cliche to the profundities of its origins, which is a. An interesting way to talk about. Like, I'm gonna use a monster movie creature to like. Oh, you're talking about failed marriages.

[Andrew]

You're gonna evoke a cliche, but you're gonna do it in a way that makes it feel fun and interesting. Fresh. Fresh enough that it's clear why it became a cliche in the first place.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Okay, now I get it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Andrew, I do have a review of this book. Oh, boy.

[Andrew]

All right, my guitar's on the wall. I'll be right back.

[Craig]

All right, I'll tell the folks at home that this is from a website where people consume the book and Have a positive time. Or at least they try to. The website is called Goodreads.

[Andrew]

It's called Goodreads. All right. I don't. I can't find a pic, so I'm going to use the SD card. Great capos on. I'm not going to take it off.

[Craig]

These are. Andrew.

[Andrew]

What?

[Craig]

Three star reviews.

[Andrew]

Wait. Oh man, that's way too high. I'm gonna take the capo off. Three star Goodreads review.

[Craig]

Thank you for that hustle, Andrew. I do appreciate it. Elizabeth says, one of the strangest books I've ever had to read for class.

[Andrew]

You read it for class?

[Craig]

Shout out to your teacher, Elizabeth. Your teacher rules.

[Andrew]

Wait, what class? I'm as incensed as I've been since that person told us they had to read Twilight in school.

[Craig]

That's.

[Andrew]

That. That's the whole review that actually owns. Like you. You do if you could find a book, man. Maybe that's. Maybe if I'm an English teacher. I try to teach the bear book in class. You just gotta. You just gotta get them hooked on reading by Canada. The weirdest book that you can think.

[Craig]

They don't want you to read it.

[Andrew]

No, they don't want you to read it in Canada.

[Craig]

Lauren said the first half of the book buzzed along, but the latter half was too muddled. Still, a very memorable read. Do you agree, Andrew? You seem to like kind of the like zaniness of the back half of the book.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean it. Everything just as. As with the beginning, everything kind of happens fast. Like the. The. I'm. I'm not sure. It's.

[Craig]

It's all.

[Andrew]

I think within the last like third or last quarter of a pretty short book. We're in rapid succession that the. Estelle's son dies and then they discover this affair. Like it is just like bam, bam, bam. But the whole book is kind of like that.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

I could see like you could be more into the early bam, bam, bam, if you will. Because if you will, it is. It's more about two people starting a relationship.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

A woman. A woman like, you know, refinding aspects of herself like that. That's more. It's like a cleaner thing.

[Craig]

So that is. I think my final review here from Emma seemed to like that part of the book. This is a book about a woman falling in love with a frogman. And somehow that was not the most silly and unrealistic part. I'll take the frogman part all day. The beginning of this very tiny book was very witty and full of good points about Gender roles and an all around good time. Then it turned into a soap opera melodrama city population, the reader of this book. But it was fun while it was.

[Andrew]

Okay, I know what you're talking about. Like, all the, you know, you could.

[Craig]

Imagine like an even, like a longer book that is like way more of.

[Andrew]

You can imagine a longer book. You can imagine one where, like, nobody dies or anything. It's all just like Fred discovers them and then something happens or she tells Estelle and Estelle's not as understanding as she thought she would be and it becomes like a parable about, like, well, I support you and your weird dalliances. Why can't you support me and mine?

[Craig]

But ingles like horror movies, like monster movies.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, I don't. I for one, I mean, I. I guess I know what this person's talking about. It's hard to be like, this woman falls in love with a frogman, but the ending was just too unrealistic.

[Craig]

Yeah, but that's. I think that's the point. I think Emma's, like, playing that up. That it is kind of a hyperbolic statement.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

That the. Maybe the triple or dual reveals of the Estelle stuff in the moment felt sillier than what if frog man sex. Which I could see it does.

[Andrew]

I mean, it does feel like a bunch, especially at the end where Estelle is being like, you killed me, Dorothy. It does feel awful. Out of nowhere.

[Craig]

Yes. Yes.

[Andrew]

I get, like. I get it all. It all hangs together, I think. But it is fast.

[Craig]

Yeah. Fair. Well, thanks for. Thanks for casting a rod and reeling in this book for me, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Nope, can't sit. Can't say like that.

[Craig]

Thanks for dipping your net into the waters.

[Andrew]

Yes, we're swimming in some. Some unfamiliar waters, let's say.

[Craig]

Some very unfamiliar waters. If you, the listener at home, are the person who yelled bear when Andrew was trying to find the name of that book, please.

[Andrew]

Bless you. Just. I'm so proud.

[Craig]

Send us an email overdupodmail.com we'd love to know why you know about that book or if you've read this book before. We'd love to hear your thoughts. You can also find us on social media, verdupod. Follow us on Blue sky or Instagram using that handle. Do it. Why don't you?

[Andrew]

Do it? Why don't you?

[Craig]

Our theme song is composed by Nick Laurengis. Andrew. If folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is the Internet website. Up there we have links to all the things that Craig mentioned, as well as the schedule for August. It is live. It's been live for a little bit. We have links to the books that we're going to read that you can click and you can buy them from bookshop.org, which gets you a copy of the book and sends a sale to your local independent bookseller. So that's fun. It's a good way to.

[Craig]

It is fun.

[Andrew]

It's a good way to buy books.

[Craig]

What if capitalism but fun.

[Andrew]

What if capitalism but fun. Patreon. Speaking of capitalism. Patreon.com overdupod is how you support the show financially. You buy us books, you buy us equipment, you buy us childcare, you buy us beer occasionally, like when we really need it.

[Craig]

When we really need it.

[Andrew]

You're there. And when. When we really need it. But it's still a business meeting. Business expense. Yeah, I. People in the IRS listen to this podcast I'm on.

[Craig]

Do they?

[Andrew]

I don't know. They probably seem busy.

[Craig]

Are there people still working there?

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think so.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Somebody's taking my estimated payments.

[Craig]

Well, true.

[Andrew]

You get access to our Discord server, our dusty bookshelves newsletter. Ad free Episodes Ad free.

[Craig]

What if capitalism.

[Andrew]

But fun long read episodes. Like the stuff that we're doing about the Silmarillion.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And the Babysitter's Club. These are just two. These are just two very similar works that we have read as part of our various long reads projects.

[Craig]

Deep Universes. Yep.

[Andrew]

Friend of the show, Emily Wilson is apparently going back to like, do another edition of her translation of the Odyssey. And I don't know what we're gonna do with that when it comes out.

[Craig]

I don't know.

[Andrew]

But these are all. These are all long reads that we've done. We're going to keep them rolling and they're fun. Patreon.com everydupod Yep. Craig, what are you reading next week?

[Craig]

I can tell you that I'm reading An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole. It's a romance novel. I'm excited to read it.

[Andrew]

I thought it was. I was going to be about labor organizing.

[Craig]

Let's see if there's any of that in there. We'll find out. Man. I did have notes I meant to, like, talk about where the title of this book probably came from. Andrew, just real quick, do you know who Caliban is?

[Andrew]

Yeah. From the Shakespeare.

[Craig]

From the Tempest.

[Andrew]

That's what I said.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

From the last. The last Shakespeare called the Tempest.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And it. If it weren't the last one, it probably would Be one of the less remarked upon works in the. In the catalog.

[Craig]

It's got fun stuff in it. It's just Shaggy.

[Andrew]

It's just mostly that it's the last one.

[Craig]

I do think that I don't know that it's going to be me. Somebody needs to get on. So Caliban was like the, you know, son of the sea witch. He's all sorts of things. Maybe he's.

[Andrew]

I love. I. I love when we put front matter behind the, like, self promos.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's fine. I just feel like it's a call to action. People need to go to the Wikipedia page for the character Caliban, and they need to put this book in there. It's not in there. There are references to Destiny 2 and Silent Hill. Like, we need to get. We need to get this book in there.

[Andrew]

I mean, be the change you want to see in the world. Unless your IP got banned from Wikipedia for other stuff.

[Craig]

Who would do that? Who would have their IP banned from Wikipedia for talking about the movie Backdraft? Can't happen. All right, Andrew, thanks for telling me about this fish book. I'm so excited that we got to swim around in this ocean together.

[Andrew]

Yeah, same club. Two books in a row with women getting eaten by fish.

[Craig]

Yo, talk about front matter at the end.

[Andrew]

Okay, bye, everybody. Try to be happy. That was a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

And Doug Limu and I always tell.

[Andrew]

You to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music, Limu. Save yourself money need today. Increase your wealth. Customize and save. We save. That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you [e-mail].

[Craig]

Savings.

[Andrew]

Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.