Ep 732 - Johnny Got His Gun, by Dalton Trumbo

Summary

Overdue Ep 732 – Johnny Got His Gun, by Dalton Trumbo

Podcast Date: December 8, 2025
Hosts: Craig and Andrew
Book Discussed: Johnny Got His Gun by Dalton Trumbo

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Craig and Andrew dive into Dalton Trumbo’s classic 1939 anti-war novel, Johnny Got His Gun. The book, notorious for its visceral anti-war perspective and its unflinching examination of trauma, serves as the springboard for a wide-ranging discussion on its historical context, literary form, and enduring impact. Craig leads the conversation, having read the book for the first time, while Andrew draws parallels with other war literature and offers background on Trumbo’s tumultuous career.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why This Book? (05:52–08:44)

• Craig’s Introduction & Music Video Connection:
  Craig admits he only knew of the book due to Metallica’s "One" music video, which uses scenes from the film adaptation:

  "I didn't know much about it other than kind of the images of the movie I'd been exposed to, so was kind of eager to get in there." (09:01)

• Book Title Misconceptions:
  The hosts joke about conflating the title with "Johnny Get Your Gun" and Aerosmith lyrics (07:11–07:47).

2. About Dalton Trumbo (11:11–16:24)

• Biography:
  • Trumbo: born 1905, died 1976; renowned Hollywood screenwriter (e.g., Roman Holiday, Spartacus).
  • Blacklisted as one of the "Hollywood 10" for refusing to testify before HUAC during the Red Scare.
• Blacklisting Fallout:

  "These are screenwriters who are cited for contempt of Congress... This is the start of this nebulous blacklist..." (13:52)

  • Eventually restored to screen credit in 1960—signaling the blacklist's demise.

Notable Moment:

"Every purchase is a chance to choose something remarkable and feel good about where your money goes." (04:01, sponsor segment—relevant for later class discussions.)

3. Publication Context & Political Impact (17:21–20:17)

• Timing:
  Johnny Got His Gun was published just as WWII began and quickly became a political flashpoint.

  "It went to the printers in the spring of 39... after Pearl Harbor, he says, 'its subject matter seemed as inappropriate to the times as the shriek of bagpipes.'" (18:03)

• Pulled from Shelves:
  The Communist Party and US entry into WWII led to the book’s publication being suspended.

• Letter from Trumbo's Foreword:

  "...denouncing Jews, Communists, New Dealers, and international bankers who had suppressed my novel to intimidate millions of true Americans who demanded an immediate negotiated peace." (19:53)

• Censorship & FBI Involvement:
  Trumbo’s reports about threatening right-wing letters led to the FBI investigating him instead of the threat senders (19:59–20:06).

4. Anti-War Literature in Context (22:58–27:33)

• Comparison to Other Novels:
  Andrew notes that where All Quiet on the Western Front and Slaughterhouse-Five draw on firsthand experience, Trumbo’s book instead leverages philosophical and class-based arguments, paired with experimental narrative techniques.

  "There are a few notes in this book that really, you can tell were written by someone with a, like a keen, articulated view on the class struggle. Like, there is a sense that war is being inflicted upon young men by the olds. By people without power, on people without power, by the people with power." (24:17)

5. Narrative Approach & Impact (27:04–27:55)

• Narrative Voice:
  The story is almost entirely internal, with fluid shifts between first, third, and even second person, blending stream-of-consciousness, memory, and poetic rumination.

  "It's entirely internal. So even when you are getting other scenes, it is because his mind is wandering... It is certainly an early 20th-century exploration of what the novel can do with voice." (27:33)

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Deep Dive: Story Synopsis and Analysis

1. Set-up: Joe's Awakening and Realization (30:46–38:49)

• Main Character:
  Joe Bonham—not Johnny—wakes to find he’s been disfigured and immobilized by a WWI blast.

• Devastating Realization:
  The opening section methodically details Joe realizing his loss of hearing, sight, speech, arms, and legs.

  "He is a very keen observer of his own physical condition. I suppose he has no choice." (34:14)

• Survival Reflex:
  As each new horror manifests, Joe tries to rationalize or cope with it:

  "He'd never hear again. Well, there were a hell of a lot of things he didn't want to hear again... The hell with it. Like, yeah, okay, yeah, I don't want to hear anymore." (35:37)

2. Anti-War Rhetoric & Class Critique (38:02–41:07)

• Trumbo's Class Awareness:
  Joe reflects on being swept into a war none of his concern, highlighting the impersonal machinery of state violence:

  "Yet here you are, and it was none of your affair. Here you are, and you're hurt worse than you think." (38:09)

• Publication Context:
  Andrew and Craig reflect on the uniqueness of WWI fiction and the book’s ever-present political resonance.

3. Physical and Psychological Imprisonment (41:08–44:53)

• Gruesome Discovery:
  Joe realizes his arms have been amputated and, later, that his legs, eyes, mouth, and much of his face are gone.

  "He tries to scream about it. He does not have a mouth. He does not have a traditional setup." (43:23)

• Losing Trust in His Mind:
  As Joe becomes unsure of sleep, wakefulness, or sanity, the narrative’s claustrophobia and existential terror intensify:

  "It meant that he might be lying and thinking very solemnly about something that seemed important, while all the time he might really be asleep and dreaming..." (44:26)

4. Attempts at Coping and Communication (45:03–50:07)

• Measuring Time:
  Joe desperately struggles to measure time, eventually using the warmth of the sun to track day and night.

  "He could track the passage of days by when he gets warm during the day because the sun comes up." (46:33)

• Breakthrough—Morse Code:
  Joe eventually realizes the only agency he has is banging his head to communicate Morse code.

• Desperate Plea:
  When finally asked "What do you want?" ([48:38]), he responds that he wants to be allowed out as a living example of war—"put me in a glass case and take me around the world."

  • They refuse, citing "regulations," leaving Joe trapped—denied death, denied liberty.

  "What you ask is against regulations. Who are you? And he realizes that they're not going to let him free, but nor are they going to kill him." (50:07)

• Rallying Cry:
  The novel climaxes in a nearly revolutionary call:

  "We will use the guns you force upon us. We will use them to defend our very lives. And the menace to our lives does not lie on the other side of a no man's land... It lies within our own boundaries here and now we have seen it and we know it." (50:55)

5. Personal & Emotional Resonance (51:48–58:32)

• Indelibility:
  Craig stresses how unforgettable the book is, both in its viscerally rendered trauma and in its ideology.
• On “Most Original Book” Award ([16:08–16:32]):
  The hosts mock the oddness of the National Book Award’s “Most Original” category, equating it to a backhanded trophy.
• Mixed Effectiveness of Flashbacks:
  Andrew notes the flashbacks to pre-war life—while thematically reinforcing what’s lost—feel less essential and memorable than the main narrative.

6. Literature as Political Conduit (58:32–61:08)

• Anti-War Rhetoric as Fiction:
  Reading the book’s polemical passages within the prison of Joe’s body lends them weight absent in cheap pamphleteering:

  "...reading them in the context that I read them here, like they felt, you know, 80 years fresh or 90 years fresh or whatever they are." (58:39)

• Notable Passage:

  "Somebody tapped you on the shoulder and said, come along, son, we're going to war. So you went, but why? ...Somebody said, let's go out and fight for liberty. And so they got. So they went and got killed without everyone’s thinking about liberty." (59:00)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "This is a book that I will probably carry with me in the same way that I carry with me, like, parts of, like, Canticle for Leibowitz..." —Craig (57:49)
• "The most compelling part of it for me is, like, how he is figuring out his life and how he is, you know, creatively enduring. And he does not seem to be getting sustenance from these memories." —Craig (53:57)
• "There are a few notes in this book that really, you can tell were written by someone with a, like a keen articulated view on the class struggle." —Craig (24:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book Context & Trumbo's Background: 11:11–16:24
• Historical/Political Context & Reception: 17:21–20:17
• Structure & Literary Form: 27:04–27:55
• Narrative Summary & Analysis: 30:46–50:07
• Emotional Impact/Takeaways: 51:48–58:32
• Passages of Note/Anti-War Rhetoric: 58:39–61:08

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Conclusion & Tone

Throughout, the hosts maintain a blend of irreverent banter and thoughtful critique, balancing gallows humor with sincerity in facing the book’s disturbingly bleak content. The episode provides rich historical and literary context, frames the novel’s anti-war message in both personal and political terms, and underscores the continued relevance—and punch—of Trumbo’s work.

Closing Reflection:
"If it sounded a little rough as I was describing it, it's rougher." —Craig (55:38)

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Next Week: Andrew reads The Bookshop by Penelope Fitzgerald.

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a Headgun podcast.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

People say nonsense and I say no, thank you.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

I like that. So turn your expensive wireless present into huge wireless savings future by switching to Mint Shop. Mint unlimited [e-mail] overdue. That's mintmobile.com overdue. It's a limited time offer. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan required. That's the 15 month equivalent. Taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term Only greater than 35 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com okay, so you've just finished an amazing book. You laughed, you cried, you told all your friends about it. But you're not ready to be done.

[Andrew]

Talking about it yet because you have a million questions for the author here's.

[Craig]

Where I might be able to help. I'm Mattea Roach and on my podcast.

[Andrew]

Bookends, I ask authors all your burning questions.

[Craig]

Like why is John Green obsessed with tuberculosis? And why did Taylor Jenkins Reid want to bring her latest love story to outer space? You can check out bookends with Mattea.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Quick Choose a meal deal with McValue. The $5 McChicken meal deal, the $6 McDouble meal deal, or the new $7 Daily Double meal deal, each with its own small fries, drink and Four Piece McNuggets. There's actually no rush. I'm just excited for McDonald's for a limited time only.

[Andrew]

Prices and participation may vary.

[Craig]

Not by Alder McDelivery this episode is brought to you by Uncommon Goods. Andrew, what's that over the horizon? Is it an advancing army? A horde of minions? No, it's the holidays.

[Andrew]

Oh, I thought I was hoping it was minions. Oh, no, you know, you know me.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

It's always fun. They've always got, they've always got a bunch of really good gift ideas. And then every once in a while while something that's like, I wish I knew somebody who wanted that.

[Craig]

Because it sounds so cool. I don't know anyone.

[Andrew]

Yeah, because it's, it's like weird and interesting. It's just not, it's just not up anybody's alley.

[Craig]

Who I personally know, I found these really neat interactive mugs. They've interactive.

[Andrew]

Aren't most mugs interactive?

[Craig]

Well, see, interesting. I, we have a lot of wonderful nerds who listen who would probably like a good mug and they're like sort of a word of the day calendar. They have a QR code in their design and you scan it and you could be drinking coffee. You could get a trivia question. You could learn about that day in history. You could get a little quotable, a potent quotable. Sounds great to me. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, Andrew, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. Every purchase is a chance to choose something remarkable and feel good about where your money goes. So don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com overdue that's UncommonGoods.com overdue for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer uncommon goods. We're all out of the ordinary. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy.

[Andrew]

Away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now.

Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

Got to do it quick.

[Andrew]

Going fast.

[Craig]

Hop on the train.

[Andrew]

Get him out of here.

It's like every, every year when the holidays come around, we do. We try to record a few podcasts in kind of rapid succession to build ourselves a little buffer so we can do all the traveling and the visiting and whatever we want to do. I do sometimes feel that we are Lucy and Ethel in the candy factory and the like. The books are on the conveyor belt and they're coming too fast and we're trying to like put them in our mouths because we don't know what to do with.

[Craig]

But I'm also, I'm shoving in my. I'm shoving the book in my mouth and trying to talk about the book at the time. Same. Same time.

[Andrew]

Yeah. It makes for good audio. That's that. That's the kind of stuff that gets edited out.

[Craig]

Well, yeah, I mean I have a setting on my microphone. It just. None of that even. I got a filter.

[Andrew]

You got one? We got one of them. AI filters.

[Craig]

I am all in on this filter. That's what AI means. Welcome to our book podcast where every week one of us reads a book and tells the other person about it. Andrew read a book this week.

[Andrew]

I didn't read a book. That must mean that you did it. Process of elimination, baby.

[Craig]

Just test you. Yeah, I read this week's book, something I'd never read before. As is our usual procedure, I read Johnny got his Gun by Dalton Trumbo, a title I have struggled not to make. Johnny, get your gun. Which I know is like the point.

[Andrew]

Johnny, get your gun is the point. There's also that song. It's like.

That one every time I read it. Every time I read it I'm like, johnny got his gun.

[Craig]

We think. Because that's Janie. Janie got her gun, right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I had no idea. I. I was today days old when I realized.

[Andrew]

When you discovered that might have Been a play.

[Craig]

Aerosmith was a play. Was playing on that. Huh?

[Andrew]

I mean, they're. They're such potent wordsmiths. There's so many layers of complication to everything that they're doing.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know, it takes time to see it all.

[Craig]

Love in an elevator going.

[Andrew]

And you know me, I don't want to miss a thing. And so I'm always. I'm always re listening to the. The great Aerosmith and finding stuff I've never found before.

[Craig]

So have you. You've heard of this book, Andrew, I presume? Maybe.

[Andrew]

No, not really.

[Craig]

Really?

[Andrew]

No, not really.

[Craig]

Okay, well, podcast is over. Everybody go home.

[Andrew]

I mean, you read it. Like, I don't have to have heard of it. You are going to hear me of it.

[Craig]

Do you want to know how I first heard of this book? Internet probably. Actually before the Internet. Good guess, though. That's like one in three ways I might have heard of something.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I feel like it's a good bubble in C for like, how did I hear about this bubble?

[Craig]

Oh, I like that phrase. No clips of the film version were used in the music video for the Metallica song one, their very first like, radio single or like one of their first charting radio singles and their first music video.

And it's this, you know, horrific song about being trapped in your body because it's all part. The rest of your body was blown off by war.

And it's not funny.

[Andrew]

You just said it in a funny.

[Craig]

Yeah, I know. And they actually, I learned in getting ready for this episode, there's reporting out there that they bought the rights to the film so that they could air the music video without paying royalties.

[Andrew]

Huh.

[Craig]

Which is kind of interesting.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

It's not, apparently not a very well received film. Roger Ebert liked it and that seems like that's about it.

[Andrew]

But yeah, every once in a while he. He is out of step with. I don't know Roger Ebert sometimes.

[Craig]

He's always got a take, which I appreciate.

[Andrew]

He's always got to take. Sometimes I feel like history proves his takes correct and sometimes like Good Burger. That one. No, that one was still wrong.

[Craig]

He liked Good Burger like.

[Andrew]

Like the movie Good Burger, though. I think people like the movie Good Burger at the time.

[Craig]

He's after defending it anyway.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But no. So this is an interesting book to visit as an. As a prominent anti war text. Seems relevant all the time, unfortunately. And I didn't know much about it other than kind of the images of the movie I'd been exposed to, so was kind of eager to get in there. But what do we need supposed to.

[Andrew]

Through a Metallica music video listen off.

[Craig]

Of my favorite album and justice for All.

[Andrew]

I just don't know how much it's part of like woven into the tapestry of the show. What a Metallica head you are. Like, I sometimes find myself being like, oh yeah, Craig went through a big Metallica face.

[Craig]

It was a huge part of my childhood. I didn't, you know, and even I was kind of getting out of it by. By the time we met in college is the thing. So like, I have a lot of nostalgia for it, but I haven't really kept up with them for like 20 years.

[Andrew]

I feel like the last, the last thing I knew about Metallica was everyone being mad about that 2000s album that they did. That was.

[Craig]

So I bought, I bought St. Angel one and that. And that drum sound is awful.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

No, they had another album not long after we graduated college, Death Magnetic, which was not bad. That was like, we got to get back to our roots album and just scream about stuff.

[Andrew]

Well, just. You heard it here. First review of a 15 year old Metallica.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's not bad. It's not a bad album anyway. Tell me about Dalton Trumbo.

[Andrew]

James Dalton Trumbo was born in 1905. He died in 1976. He's a screenwriter, a playwright and a novelist. He's probably best known for his screenplays, which include lots of Big Tent Pole Summer Popcorn Flicks, Roman holiday, Spartacus, Exodus, 30, 30 seconds over Tokyo, a bunch of others. He began in writing pretty early in life. Like he worked as a reporter for the Grand Junction Daily Sentinel in Colorado while he was still in high school. He contributes to his college newspaper and humor magazine and yearbook.

His dad dies in 1924 shortly after moving the family to California from Colorado. This leaves Trumbo as the main breadwinner for the family. And he won the bread mostly by working in a bakery at night.

[Craig]

There's a few of these.

[Andrew]

That's one of the great places to win bread, I find.

[Craig]

It's true a few of these autobiographical details make it into the novel. I don't think it is.

It shouldn't be much of your takeaway. I don't think that they are autobiographical other than it was kind of what was in his, you know, brain at the time as a young writer. Like there is like the main. The our guy, Joe. He. His name is not Johnny, is very confusing. His name is Joe. He worked in a bread factory. His dad died early. They moved to Los Angeles like a couple of other things, it seems like, are pulled from his life, except the, like, go serve in World War I and, you know, get blown to bits apart. That's not.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that was something. That's something I wanted to bring up later, so I'm glad that you touched on it.

[Craig]

Yep. Now.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Trumbo's professional writing career doesn't really take off until the 30s. He is writing and trying to get published while he's working nights in the. In the bakery, but not finding a lot of success. But he does start selling stories to magazines starting in the 30s. He jumps. He's the managing editor at a magazine for, like, a little bit. And then he jumps from magazines to the movie biz when he becomes a reader in the story department at Warner Brothers. His first published novel, eclipse, comes in 1935. From here, he would continue to write novels while also getting into screenplays. Johnny Got his gun is 1939. Written in 38, I think.

[Craig]

Yeah. And serialized. 40. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Y.

But the. The thing with his screenplay work is a lot of it was. Was uncredited or credited to a pseudonym because he was blacklisted from Hollywood during the Red Scare.

[Craig]

Yeah. He was one of the Hollywood 10.

[Andrew]

A cool chapter of our country. Yeah. He's part of a group called the Hollywood 10. These are screenwriters who are cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to testify in front of the House UN American Activities Committee after they were subpoenaed. This is the genesis of the Hollywood blacklist, which I didn't.

[Craig]

I didn't know.

[Andrew]

This is news to me. But yet. So studio executives more or less voluntarily decide to suspend all 10 of these. These guys who are accused by the HUAC of, you know, having, like, communist sympathies and being the enemies from within, basically. And this is the start of this nebulous blacklist that, like, definitely exists, but is sometimes hard to prove the existence of because there is no, like, one master blacklist. And the studios were, like, collaborating on it, but also doing it kind of ad hoc.

But it expanded to many, many, many more names after this initial Hollywood 10. Trumbull also helps to bookend the era a little bit. In 1960, he is given screen credit by his government name for Spartacus and then another movie called Exodus, which you mentioned. A lot of blacklisted writers and performers still had trouble finding work in this era. Some of them never really did again, but this was the beginning of the end of it. And then there was a lawsuit in 1962 that held studio execs and others who enforce these blacklists liable for the professional and financial damage that they caused. And that was really the thing that started breaking those walls down definitively. A few movies, including Roman Holiday, have been altered in newer RE releases, partly because the Writers Guild is advocating for it, partly because family members are advocating for it. But in newer releases, some of these movies have been altered to properly credit the people who worked on them. Just like on blacklisting them.

[Craig]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

And making sure that they have their names on work that they did.

Yeah, it was kind of interesting.

[Craig]

Little.

[Andrew]

Little aside.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

Researching about this. This anti war book. Yeah. Johnny Got his gun, published in 1939. Like I said, it won most original book in the fifth year of the National Book Awards.

[Craig]

Yeah, that was. They were the American Booksellers Association Awards and they had a bunch of funny categories.

But yeah, he's the most original book.

[Andrew]

Was one of the. Like the opening ones.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then. Yeah, he won. He won the fifth one that existed.

[Craig]

The most original.

[Andrew]

The title is a most original. Can just feel like such a backhanded compliment.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

It's just like in seventh grade football when I got the most improved trophy. And it was way more about how bad I sucked when I started the season than it was about how good I had gotten by the end.

[Craig]

We went to. I would probably talk about it on the podcast before we went to a wedding not long after we graduated college. Andrew.

[Andrew]

And listening that Metallica album.

[Craig]

Probably probably not. And the after the wedding, we're talking to the family of the bride and they decided that I was not the best dancer at the wedding, but I was the most dancer at the wedding.

[Andrew]

You were the. You were the most dancer. I've not been to a wedding with you in a while. I don't know if time has slowed you down at all, but every wedding I went to with you, you were always. He awakens Always out there.

[Craig]

He is in there sleeping.

[Andrew]

The title of this book, as we alluded to earlier, is a play on the phrase Johnny get yout Gun, which was used to encourage men to enlist in the military. So it's a little, little bit of an ironic twist, kind of subversive twist.

[Craig]

Like the Joker named this book or.

[Andrew]

Something like the Joker.

This was an early anti war rallying point for the American left after World War II had started, but before the US entered it.

But publication was suspended after the US got into the war because the official stance of the Communist Party in the country at the time was that the war was a. Okay, as long as the US Was allied with the. The Soviet Union against the Nazis.

[Craig]

Yeah, I saw it had been, like, serialized in the Daily Worker. And, yeah, the Communist Party was like, well, they signed that pact. So he says in the forward in my edition from 1959, that it went to the printers in the spring of 39 and was published 10 days after the Nazi Soviet Pact, two days after the start of World War II. And then after Pearl harbor, he says, quote, its subject matter seemed as inappropriate to the times as the shriek of bagpipes. So, yeah, people did. People didn't want an anti war book when, you know, Jap Japan had bombed Pearl harbor and, you know, the Nazis were really emerging full force.

[Andrew]

Doing bad Nazi stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

This podcast is anti Nazi. We are.

Become a political flashpoint.

Yeah. And then he. He later got. And you might know a little bit more about this than I do as well, but he later got letters from, like, right wingers who were asking for copies of the book. People coming at it from an anti war standpoint, but more of an isolationist anti war standpoint and then a leftist standpoint.

[Craig]

He writes about it perhaps being actively censored for a brief period of time, and then his decision to, like, not have it be reissued. And he is receiving letters who are like, what? He says, quote, denouncing Jews, Communists, New Dealers, and international bankers who had suppressed my novel to intimidate millions of true Americans who demanded an immediate negotiated peace.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So he sends these letters to the FBI and cops being cops.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

They show up to investigate him instead of investigating the right. The right way.

[Craig]

Yep. Yep. Cool. And he's thought. He writes that he had thought about kind of revising it or revisiting it sometimes.

But that. That never seemed appropriate because in his experience, it's held a different meaning for three different wars, meaning World War I, World War II, and Korea. For him, its present meaning is what each reader conceives it to be. And each reader is gloriously different from every other reader, and each is also changing. I've let it remain as it was to see what it is.

Other things I found briefly is the. The story goes that he was inspired by two things that he read about World War I. One was a story about a British major that was damaged beyond recognition. And the family only learned that he was still alive years after he had died in a hospital.

[Andrew]

Damaged beyond recognition. You make him sound like a. Like a CD player.

[Craig]

Like, yeah, he was. Like his body was unrecognizable.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And then another.

[Andrew]

I just don't hear damaged as a. As a. As a word. That applies to people. L. Things and people. Yeah.

[Craig]

And reported I damaged my foot. Start saying it. See if it works.

[Andrew]

A visit makes me sound like a cool cyborg. I worry it would make me sound too cool.

[Craig]

Okay, fair enough.

[Andrew]

Because now I'm getting realistic battle damage just by, like, walking around my house.

[Craig]

My heat sinks are overloaded. A visit by Prince Andrew, reportedly, to Curly, to a guy named Curly Christian.

An unfortunate name.

[Andrew]

Can't call him that.

[Craig]

That's his name. He was a Canadian soldier who was a quadruple amputee. And there's a harrowing account from Andrew visiting him in a hospital. And both of those inspired Trumbo to write the character that he wrote in this novel. And then the last thing I'll share, I found an article from 1970 called 30 Years Later, Johnny Gets His Gun. It's in the New York Times. Author Guy Flatley. Great name, Guy Flatley.

And it's an interview with Trumbo, like, as they're getting ready to either make or release the movie. And so he's. You know, Vietnam is raging. And he says, my personal feeling was that all wars are bad and can be prevented by intelligent and compassionate leadership, but that once a war is engaged in, it is possible to take sides. He goes on to say that he felt World War II was a moral war that should be won. And then later talking about kind of Vietnam and just war in general. Though in the past, you could talk about a good war or a bad war, but today, with the bomb, we could kill the whole world. Maybe what I'm really saying is that it will get me, too, that I won't participate in the next war except as the victim of a bomb.

Trumbo, man.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we've read a bunch of anti war books for the show. I don't. I don't have, like, a full list on me, but things like catch 22, slaughterhouse 5, all quiet on the Western Front. I'm struck by a lot of these. Like, they are coming from the perspective of authors who served firsthand in the war. Like, usually one of the first, the World War I or World War II.

And they are anti war insofar as they are putting out, like, firsthand or very close to firsthand accounts that sort of highlight the reality on the ground and juxtapose it with other stuff. And, you know, they shove the violence of it and the atrocity of it and the occasional absurdity of it in your face.

This seems like it might be coming at it from a. More like explicitly, like a philosophical Place like a more leftist place. Like, I'm not sure, I'm curious to hear from you how it, how it feels different from those. Those other war books that we've read that are. That are from people who are taking their experience of the horrors and then like synthesizing it.

[Craig]

Yeah. I think I can do a succinct answer and then we'll do the rest of the episode, but.

[Andrew]

Nice. That's how it goes, baby.

[Craig]

There are a few notes in this book that really, you can tell were written by someone with a, like a keen.

Articulated view on the class struggle. Like, there is a.

A sense that war is being inflicted upon old, young men by the olds. By people without power. On people without power. By the people with power.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And that usually cuts across a, like, class line or an inherited power and wealth line or something like that. So that's one thing that, like, you probably get some of that in Vonnegut, but it does not jump to mind when I think of some of the other anti war stuff that we have read for the show.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because with Vonnegut you're also dealing with like, aliens and whatever.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like whatever other stuff it was that he was putting in there.

[Craig]

The other thing, I wouldn't necessarily think this is like, you could say it's philosophical, I guess it's very visceral. But you're never at the war. You're never. You barely get a hint of what actually even happened to this guy. It's clear that like, something exploded, but you never get the scene where it happened. You barely get references to being in the trenches. It is largely about this guy's experience trapped in his broken body and what his mind does while he's in there.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And so I think that that is an interesting, Interesting to think about that it's written by someone who did not serve. So he is not even attempting to take us there and like populate it with characters. There's like, oh, another thing about. There's like one or two scenes, but it's like about how Brits were being weird in the trenches. Like, it's not, it's not like, oh, and here are the guys I served with and it's a shame that they're dead or what. Like, it is much more.

You can almost. You can feel the home front in it a little bit.

[Andrew]

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm not trying to say.

[Craig]

Oh, it's not that it's less effective or anything.

[Andrew]

Yeah, not that it's less effective or that you, you know, that, that people should have to experience it firsthand to, to be able to like be adequately anti it. Like I, I, on the contrary, I think it would be amazing if people didn't need to touch the stove to, to know that the stove was hot and to advocate against touching the stove.

[Craig]

Yes. You know, no, no, you're totally right. I think this, it just makes it.

[Andrew]

It just makes it different from a lot of the other tent poles of this, of this form that we've covered before.

[Craig]

And the, just the perspective of it, the locked in perspective of it is just so different from any other. It's from a lot from most novels I've read and certainly from other war novels or anti war novels I've read that are like, it's, it's entirely internal. So even when you are getting other scenes, it is because his mind is wandering. It is like Certainly an early 20th century.

Exploration of what the novel can do with voice.

Because it like jumps around. There are parts of it that are like kind of poetic. There are parts of it that are stream of consciousness. There are parts of it that are in third person, in first person, in second person. But it is all the ramblings of this brain trying to survive what it's enduring.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's, it's the fifth ever most original book. I would expect it to be playing with and innovating with form a little bit. And I'm glad to hear that it does.

[Craig]

You're not wrong about that. Let's take a quick break. Andrew and I can tell you what it's like, what it was like when Johnny got his gun.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Where do I begin?

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

How could they dislike this gift.

[Andrew]

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Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m.

[Craig]

Right now and, well, you're sweet and.

[Andrew]

All, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary.

[Craig]

Needs, but they've just got it all, so farewell. Oatmeal. So long, you strange soggy.

[Andrew]

Break up with bland breakfast and taste.

[Craig]

AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with K tree eggs, smoked bacon.

[Andrew]

And melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM PM Too much. Good stuff.

[Craig]

All right, Andrew.

[Andrew]

All right, let's.

[Craig]

Let's lock in here.

[Andrew]

So I hear this guy got a gun.

[Craig]

Yum. He. I suppose he did. Ever have his gun? Who gave it?

[Andrew]

Who gave it to him and why?

[Craig]

The United States army. Because they were joining World War I. The Great War, they called it, in one of the kind of memory interludes. I hesitate to even call them flashbacks, based on how the voice of the novel works. But he talks about.

This is Joe Bonham, our main character. Talks about when his family moves to Los Angeles. And then in the news, they hear about Romania. Romania. He writes it. Romania. There's a lot of, like, interesting, like, weird little spellings that happen for this character.

[Andrew]

Okay, is that part of the character or is it just like he spells it Romania?

[Craig]

I think. I think it's part of the character. He calls it Russia at one point. Like, it's just. Yeah. When they enter the war. And then there are, like, stories in the news about.

Germans, like, crucifying Romanian soldiers, which apparently there was, like, a whole thing about whether or not the Germans in World War I were crucifying people.

Who knows what's going on?

But they. That's, like, when it hits home for him. But there are multiple passages in the book where it Just kind of veers into an anti war screed. Makes it sound bad, but that's. I found them all compelling, but it is usually like, oh, and then you just kind of got picked up and sent off to war. Huh. And what were you fighting for? What? What. Why were you even there? You don't know. You're just 20 and you were told you had to go, so now you're there and this is what happened.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like, that is kind of what the book is about. It is the arbitrariness of what happened to this young man that he didn't even really understand what he was fighting for. Did he even really have a choice to fight for what he was told he was fighting for?

And here he is unable to even, you know, barely exist. And what is he to do about it, if anything at all? Yeah, it's. He is the first half of the novel, it's not very long, but the first half of the novel is him coming to understand his condition.

And what exactly has happened to him.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, is there.

As he remembers, like, how. How much does he. How much is he conscious of? Like, before.

[Craig]

Great question.

[Andrew]

Waking up in. In his current state.

[Craig]

Opens with kind of like this external stimuli of a ringing telephone. And you have this story, maybe he's at a bar, he's getting a phone call about his dad dying. And you can kind of tell that this is not actually what's happening in the book and that he's having some sort of memory episode. And he realizes that his body is covered in damp bandages from head to toe.

And over the course of this first part of the novel, he is in encountering things or not encountering them that teach him about what has happened to him. And he is like a very keen observer of his own physical condition. I suppose he has no choice.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's kind of. If that's all you can pay attention to, then, yeah, you'd be.

[Craig]

You'd.

[Andrew]

You'd get pretty familiar with it, I bet.

[Craig]

Yeah. And it is harrowing. Like, so he realizes he's like, covered in damp bandages and that there are doctors, you know, working on him of some kind. And he. His heart starts beating faster and he realizes that while he can feel his heart beating faster, he can't hear, like, his pulse in his ear. Like he can't hear anything in the room. And then he realizes, like, he can't even hear his own pulse. And so he realizes he's deaf. And something that happens throughout the book usually when he encounters, you know, one limitation that he didn't have before.

Is he kind of tries to rationalize it and tries to.

Come up with maybe not even a. A lasting coping with the change, but something that in the moment might make him, you know, at least kind of deal with it. So he's.

[Andrew]

I bet that you even, like, when you're in a situation like that, there's part of your brain that, like, can't believe that or doesn't want to believe that it's gonna be that way forever. So you're just like, okay, just for now, let me figure out how I'm gonna get through, like, the next little bit, and then maybe things will get better after that.

[Craig]

I think, like, that is what. That. That exact impulse is like, one of the most compelling parts of the novel. Because you are. You are, as I said, you're rarely getting information about the war.

You are getting interludes of this guy's life that he is remembering that are often relevant to whatever kind of new experience he's or he's having or not having. And you're getting some thoughts on the war. But a lot of what you're getting is like, oh, no, what has happened to me? How will I find out what has happened to me now that I know what's happened to me? What can I do about it, if anything? And it is just a fascinating portrait of a mind. But when he. When he first learns that he's deaf, he tells himself so he'd never hear again. Well, there were a hell of a lot of things he didn't want to hear again. He never wanted to hear the biting little castanet sound of a machine gun, or the high whistle of a 75 coming down fast, or the slow thunder as it hit, or the whine of an airplane overhead, or the yells of a guy trying to explain to somebody that he's got a bullet in his belly and that his breakfast is coming out through the front of him. And why won't somebody stop going forward and give him a hand, only nobody can hear him, they're so scared themselves. The hell with it. Like, yeah, okay, yeah, I don't want to hear anymore. No, thanks.

But then one of, like the next dreamland sequences is remembering stories of his parents courtship, when his mom would play the piano.

And his dad would listen to it on his phone from, like, the town over. And everyone in his little rural town in Colorado would like, come by to listen to her play the piano through the phone. And you're like, okay, this is beautiful and sad, of course. And the book is not so, like, and then I thought about sounds I love. It's just like, it. It's more artful than that. It is like he can't control where his brain is going.

So, like.

[Andrew]

And it does make sense. I assume you're telling me about those. Those memories in the order that they're occurring.

[Craig]

Mostly.

[Andrew]

Like, it does make sense that you would be like, well, actually, it's fine that I can't hear anymore because there's a bunch of stuff that it sucks to hear. And then. And then after that, the doubts would start to sneak in, and then you'd be like, oh, yeah, I can't hear, like, a child's laughter anymore. Or whatever.

[Craig]

Yep. Mm, mm, mm.

And so then he's, like, giving us a little bit of the background of him going to war.

And what does he say? This was no war for you, Joe. This thing wasn't any of your business. What do you care about making the world safer? Democracy? All you wanted to do was to live. You were born and raised in the good, healthy country of Colorado, and you had no more to do with Germany or England or France or even with Washington, D.C. than you had to do with the man in the moon. Yet here you are, and it was none of your affair. Here you are, and you're hurt worse than you think. And so you read that and it's like, yes, I agree. War is terrible. And I can. Having read the foreword, I'm also like, yes, I can see how it would be bad if a bunch of Nazi sympathizers were, like, see? War bad.

[Andrew]

Yeah, war was bad. Especially the war where they kicked the Nazis butts. That one sucked.

[Craig]

Please don't do that one.

[Andrew]

Don't kick our butts, please.

[Craig]

It's like, just an interesting. I don't often think about the.

I don't know as much about the kind of, like, publication context and where these books are hitting relative to other conflicts. Usually they, in my brain, like, the World War I books are stuff like, all quiet on the Western Front. And then I think about World War II, and I think a lot about Vonnegut, but they're all like, after the fact. Like, it is so interesting that this landed right on the eve of World War II and it just kind of, like, impacted its immediate reception.

[Andrew]

Yeah, well, I'm sure, you know, writing it, he's looking at world affairs and being like, boy, it sure seems like, weird, like, slow motion rolling toward another horrible thing. Even though that first one really should have been the one to end all ones. And, like, World War I fiction is always so like when we've encountered it, it's always so distinctive anyway because it can only be coming from that very narrow time band between the two. And then everything else like World War I kind of gets. Gets deleted or gets treated as like prelude or.

[Craig]

Yes. Huh.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Just when you talk. When people talk about the post war order or whatever, they're talking about the second one.

[Craig]

Yeah, no, you're right.

[Andrew]

And so there's been a lot more room for that one to sort of breathe in terms of fiction and history. And then. Yeah, World War I kind of has to be its own little cordoned off.

[Craig]

Thing and interesting to. To think about the history of this book and the. And the film adaptation. Like the book doesn't get back into wide circulation until after the Korean War and then the movie is coming out during the Vietnam War. So it's just like it's always wrapped up in the contemporary conflict and is not. Which I think is. You know, it's also written in a way that. That's very easy because it is not tied to the. Like it is not so tied to the events of World War I, you know.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Such as they are. But so chapter three is one of the rougher chapters in the book, in my opinion, in terms of realizing what is going on with him. He can't hear, so he. He can kind of feel from the ground that there are people in the room with him. He can feel that there are doctors doing things to him, even though he can't feel all of it. Yeah, he feels a lot of like pinching on his arms as they're using tools on him and then. But he can't quite feel it the way he thinks he should. And he realizes that they're cutting his arms off.

And he goes through like a myriad of. Like a myriad of a myriad reactions.

Where he's like mad at them for, you know, it's probably. They're probably cutting it off because it's easier than saving it. And what do you do with a guy's arm when you cut it off? Who knows? You have to do something with it. And he's kind of meditating on that. And then he thinks like, oh, wait, I had a ring on that hand from the girl I was with before I got drafted and sent off. And so you get this long kind of romance interlude of the two of them before he is shipped off that has a lot of, you know, really powerful beats of him embracing her in a way that he cannot.

A scene of their. A scene where their Dialogue as he is getting ready to get put on the train. And they are like, you know, kissing and saying goodbye is interspersed with the lyrics of the national anthem. Oh, my God, Trumbo is coming for you. And he is now beginning to have trouble, like, staying conscious and present and keeping track of whether or not he is awake or asleep. He feels too top heavy on the bed, Andrew. He thinks they must have laid him incorrectly on the bed. And he tries to kick his feet to fix it. And there are no feet to kick, no legs to kick. Don't got no feet, don't got no legs below his thighs. He tries to scream about it. He does not have a mouth. He does not have a traditional setup.

[Andrew]

What we would traditionally consider a mouth.

[Craig]

No, he. And he discovers it by like. Again, this goes back to the like, keen observer of his physical state. He is like flexing what muscles he does have in his face to trace what isn't there. It's really, it's really gruesome and awful and very effective writing, like, to think about what a person might even be able to do in this state. And he also realizes in that section that kind of. The hole in his face is large enough that he does not have eyes. And that is why he can't. It's not, it's not that he doesn't. It's not that he's bandaged up, is he just can't see it all.

[Andrew]

That's. Yeah, this, this is rough stuff.

[Craig]

It's bad. It's all bad.

And he can't, you know, take his own life through not breathing because they've, you know, given him a tracheotomy and put a breathing tube in him. So he's just stuck there.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And this is like, he's at his darkest point here because he is like, there's something, he says. Oh. Because he's like having trouble telling whether or not he's awake or asleep. And he says it, it meant that he might be lying and thinking very solemnly about something that seemed important, while all the time he might really be asleep and dreaming the idiotic dreams of a two year old. It robbed him of any respect for his own thoughts. And that was the worst thing that could happen to anyone. Anybody.

[Andrew]

Yeah, because you're just trapped in there with yourself, but you can't like trust whether you're even having. Having the good thoughts or not.

[Craig]

Yep.

And he. We get a few more kind of anti war tracks at the end of part one, and then part two is like, how are we gonna survive it Opens with this, like, interesting passage where everything. He's trying to latch on to something. He's trying to, like, what Bible verses does he know? What books does he remember? What numbers can he count to? And nothing's quite working. He's, like, laments that he's not educated enough to, like, remember a full book. Like, because if he could just read the same book over and over, that would at least occupy his brain. And he realizes, okay, I will try to measure time. I will do something to try and measure the passage of time. Time is a common experience to all living people. If I can do that, I can at least, like, know that I exist in the world.

[Andrew]

It's wild that within the last calendar month, we have done, like, two books where somebody has to do this in order to stay safe.

[Craig]

It's wild.

And he. You know, first he starts by just, like, counting seconds, and then he's, like, struggling to keep track of the minutes and the hours, and he keeps losing it. And then he realizes, well, the nurses visit me regularly. Could I. Could I use that? Could I count those? Somehow he figures out that he could track the passage of days by when he gets warm during the day because the sun comes up. Oh.

Which is kind of.

[Andrew]

That's clever.

[Craig]

Really clever.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

It would happen now.

[Andrew]

Sucks. Like, it's still a bummer that it's. It's happening this way.

[Craig]

It's. No, it's fascinating.

[Andrew]

Like, it's.

[Craig]

To be in this person's brain and they, like, come to this realization.

I did think that, like, most if you were in a. A hospital with air conditioning and, you know, l. What LED lighting, like, this would not happen. You would not be able to do this. This would only work.

[Andrew]

But you could figure out another way. Life finds a way.

[Craig]

Hopefully you could.

And the passage where he, like, feels the sunrise because he realizes, like, the way the sun works as you would feel the biggest shift from night to morning because the warmth of the day would fade a little slower. So you have to have the kind of. The swift feeling of the sun rising. He finally gets it. There's, like, a bunch of beautiful passages of him, like, feeling connected to the world again. And then now he can track, like, nurse visits. And he's like, okay, I get six visits a day. I can tell which nurses are different nurses because of how they interact with me. He could cut based on how he can, like, feel them handling him. And he's pretty sure he's been there, like, a year. And then after he gets visited by a general or somebody who Puts, like, a medal on his chest, which he gets mad about.

[Andrew]

It.

[Craig]

Well, that, like, none of this would happen to a general. None of this would happen to the people in power who. Who have the, you know, the ability to bestow these.

[Andrew]

It's like, what a weird little consolation, like, consolation prize this is.

[Craig]

Yep, yep. He realizes, what if he could communicate with Morse code? One of the few things he can do is move his head. So he just starts banging his head on the bed. Like, tapping his head on the bed, trying to do Morse code. He does it so much, he's basically lost all track of time. Like, he's just like, I'm just going to bang SOS with my head as much as I can until somebody understands what's going on.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it goes on. This is like the rest of the book. Some people under. Some people don't understand it. Finally, somebody does. And the kind of closing of the book is they bring in a military guy who, like, clearly can understand Morse code, and they tap on his, like, forehead. What do you want? Which is the worst. What you ask the. You ask him, what do you want?

[Andrew]

Thanks for giving me a job. I'm laying here with no eyes and mouth and legs.

[Craig]

And he goes. And he's like, he wants out. He doesn't. It's not that he's begging for death. He, like, wants to be out of the hospital. He wants to feel air. He wants to, like, know that he's near people living their lives. And he even says, like, he. He goes on this whole thing where he's like, I can even be useful. Like, you don't have to pay for me. I can make money. You can put me in a glass case and you can take me around the world, and I will be, like, an embodiment of war. And people can learn from me whatever lessons they're meant to learn. And that will, like, people will pay money in the same way that, like, I paid money as a kid to see a guy with stone skin or whatever. Like. And this is where you get a lot of the more political passages towards the end where he's like, you know, this is. Put me in front of every parliament and diet in Congress.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right.

[Craig]

Make them look at me before they cast a vote to. To embark on war kind of stuff. The guy says, what you ask is against regulations. Who are you? And he realizes that they're not going to let him free, but nor are they going to kill him.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

And he kind of closes the book with this.

Kind of like, you can make us Fight. But there will, or there should and will be an uprising. He says, we will use the guns you force upon us. We will use them to defend our very lives. And the menace to our lives does not lie on the other side of a no man's land that was set apart without our consent. It lies within our own boundaries here and how we have seen it and we know it.

And he's. It's like he never so explicitly uses like.

Worker commie, like work, you know, international workers language. But he is often referencing that like, these are. We are men who just wanted to, you know, work a job and then go home with our families. And here we are doing whatever you've made us do.

And that's just how it ends. And he's. It's like, interesting that the book does not, because you are with him. In his head, you get this like, defiant call for.

Triumphant uprising that is in stark difference to the reality of what this man's experience is.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

And yeah, it's.

It's an indelible book. Like, I will not forget it. I will probably forget some of the.

Non.

Guy in the hospital, like Joe in the hospital section.

[Andrew]

Oh, is there like, Are there? Because you haven't really talked about him.

[Craig]

I haven't really talked about them because, like, they don't. They. They were the. I don't even feel like it feels.

[Andrew]

Like it's just so far.

Even while you are reading those, you must be like, part of you must be thinking to yourself, this is so far removed from what the book is doing, slash, what the book is known for that I don't even, like, you're not, you're not even opening up the part of your brain that could be used for long term stories.

[Craig]

I see that.

[Andrew]

Mike, is that accurate or am I inventing things?

[Craig]

A little bit of that and a little bit of that. It might be a little podcaster brain where I am love to have podcaster brain. I have clocked that these vignettes of his memory are part of the, like, flavor of the novel. But the most compelling part of it for me is like how he is figuring out his life and how he is, you know, creatively enduring. And he does not seem to be getting sustenance from these memories. They in fact are, you know, troubling him. And like the stuff like him with Karine, his girlfriend.

That sticks out to me. There's a, A scene with him and his buddy and his dad going fishing and they lose his dad's fishing rod, which is like his only prized Possession. And then his dad is like, it's okay, bud. Like, don't worry about it. And it's like, it's very sweet. And like, all of those add up to this was the life. This was like parts of the life that he should have been able to keep living.

But is it. They are not compelling. As compelling to me as the, the more visceral.

Hospital stuff. Yeah, it's kind of. And I also, maybe I was also a little throne because I know that those are the parts of the movie that people like the least. Like, they are the. These sections. There's like a scene where he is like, they put him on morphine or some sort of, you know, dope induced kind of fuzzy mode to keep him from tapping his head on the bed all the time. And he has like a long dream about his friends and Christ in Tucson, Arizona. And I was just like, not quite able to process what was happening as I was also working hard to process the other parts of the book. So that that's the kind of stuff that maybe if I were to reread it, I would get a little bit more out of.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But first time through, I was so kind of locked in on like, just what was happening to him on the bed. So I, I can tell you why they're in the book. But I, I am not sitting here going, oh, let me tell you my favorite part.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely going to remember this forever and ever.

[Craig]

There's a whole again, like, now, like, now that you're like, what were they? I'm like, well, yeah, there's a whole, like, section of him working at the bakery and remembering what he could do with his body and things like that. But also there's a story of this guy named Jose who seemed to have a pretty charmed life.

And now he'll never know whatever happened to that guy. And it's like, okay, like, it's an interesting. I don't know if that. If some of that was enhanced by the serialization in the one publication. I don't know.

It is not what I will remember from the book. So.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's. This book's rough, man. If it sounds like, if it sounded a little rough as I was describing it, it's rougher.

[Andrew]

The vibes that you gave as we talked about just you reading and being ready to record this episode were like, kind of stressed out and unpleasant. And now I have more insight into why that was. Like, maybe this is not like a cool, chill sort of holiday, like Thanksgiving Holiday weekend fun time read.

[Craig]

No, no, no, no, no. It was not. Not at all. But. And also, it's like a. It is a book. If you are someone like me who believes you're someone like you, that war is bad, what is. Okay, there was a New York Times review of the movie that did not like the movie at all. And it said, johnny Got His Gun has perhaps two ideas. One, that war is a crime, and two, that it is a crime committed by the old against the young. The first of these ideas seems unquestionable but uninteresting. The second, though questionable, is also uninteresting. I don't agree with the sentences. I don't.

[Andrew]

Being anti war is boring.

[Craig]

I think. I think as rendered in the film. I think that, you know, the reviewer is like, it's not an interesting, you know, moving picture, I suppose.

[Andrew]

Okay, fine.

[Craig]

But I think it is an interesting treatment of those two basic ideas that war is a crime and that it is a crime committed by the old against the. The young. I don't. I think this book fired me up. It is.

It fires me up the. The same way that, like, I get head up about the death penalty. Like, they're just like these clear moral lines. And I'm not head up about with excitement about the death penalty. I want. I know that you are not great moral stage.

[Andrew]

You are not sitting with, like, your big foam finger and cowboy hat, like, yeah, death penalty time, baby.

[Craig]

No, it is like.

And this is a book that I will probably carry with me in the same way that I carry with me, like, parts of, like, Canticle for Lebowitz and other things we've read for the show that are like, oh, yeah, that's a good shorthand for the visceral, emotional negative reaction I have to this entire enterprise.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, now this is. This is related to the. The parts of your brain that are like, war is bad. And so now whenever. Whenever you think war is bad, and I don't know, you know, if there's ever a war again. I don't know. I don't read the news, but.

But when those parts of your brain are lit up, then, hey, this book is going to be there, like, getting lit up also.

[Craig]

It is. And. And I think I read one passage. I think there's another one.

[Andrew]

A little.

[Craig]

Towards the end of part one of the book. I'll read some of, because I just. I think it's just. I don't think this is maybe the. The only person who has ever made points like this, but reading them in the context that I read them here, like they felt, you know, 80 years fresh or 90 years fresh or whatever they are.

He thought, here you are, Joe Bonham, lying like a side of beef all the rest of your life, and for what? Somebody tapped you on the shoulder and said, come along, son, we're going to war. So you went, but why? In any other deal, even like buying a car or running an errand, you had the right to say, what's there in it for me? Otherwise you'd be buying bad cars for too much money or running errands for fools and starving to death. Uh, somebody said, let's go out and fight for liberty. And so they got. So they went and got killed without everyone's thinking about liberty. And what kind of liberty were they fighting for anyway? How much liberty and whose idea of it were they fighting for? The liberty of eating free ice cream cones all their lives or for the liberty of robbing anybody they pleased, whatever they wanted? You tell a man he can't rob and you take away some of his liberty. You've got to. What the hell does liberty mean anyhow? It's just a word like house or table or any other word. Only it's a special kind of word. A guy says house and he could point to a house to prove it. But a guy says, come on, let's fight for liberty, and he can't show you liberty. He can't prove the thing he's talking about. So how in the hell can he be telling you to fight for it? And, like, reading it aloud? I can hear, like, a hackney delivery of these that makes them feel really cheap.

[Andrew]

I think there is a. There is a version of this that can read as, like, shrill and tune out able. Especially if you're like, people in positions of power where it's like, oh, this is. This is just. Oh, yes, pinko commie activist talk, and I don't need to take it seriously. Yeah.

[Craig]

And. And reading it in the same book, that is like, okay, well, now this guy is alive, and the most he can do is, like, wiggle his body and bang his head against a table. It gives it a different energy.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

To read this rather than reading it as an excerpt or reading it as, you know, one more pacifist pamphlet. Right. So I think that's a. For me, I come away from the novel with a reminder of, like.

What it is to encounter some of these ideas in fiction rather than from the mouth of a. Of a politician or something like that. It's just going to land differently with people. So. Yeah. And then if you want, you can go watch the Metallica video. It's like. That really sums it up. Actually.

I did watch it. It's a good video.

[Andrew]

We'll end as we begin with more Metallica talk.

[Craig]

It makes the movie look better than its reputation.

[Andrew]

This is our music podcast, Metalkin Metallica.

[Craig]

Listen. I know a few listeners who will appreciate the Metallica talk.

Listen. Kirk Hammett's solo on one is one of the best guitar solos of Metallica's entire oeuvre and of metal hard rock in general.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I believe you.

[Craig]

Just. I'm just here to tell you that.

[Andrew]

I believe you because I don't. If for no other reason than I don't know enough myself to refute what you're saying.

[Craig]

Yeah. Which means I'm right.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

Follow the science.

[Craig]

Tell me about your favorite guitar solo, folks at home. Thanks, Andrew, for listening to me tell you about this book.

[Andrew]

Tell you what, it's not the one in Cinnamon Girl. Am I right?

You know that guitar solo?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

That stinks. Talk about not being able to move or do anything. It's the guitar solo.

[Craig]

You know what's a fun guitar solo? Was that the. The Weezer island of the sun one. It's just the melody. It's so bad, Craig.

[Andrew]

Every song on that whole stupid album is just the melody. Every single guitar solo on every one of the songs.

[Craig]

It was kind of cool.

[Andrew]

That was 27 minutes long and they didn't even have good guitar solos. And then the album after that is like, what if we did all guitar solos to make up for it? And it is honest. That album does kind of.

[Craig]

Welcome to our new music podcast. Wheezing about Weezer.

[Andrew]

If you want a Weezer album that tickles your Metallica brain, I think Maladroit is the one to. Is the okay to listen to you.

[Craig]

That's useful.

[Andrew]

Everything after that is. Is don't no miss me.

[Craig]

I don't think I have a Metallica album that will fit your Weezer.

[Andrew]

That's too bad because.

[Craig]

It might be load, but I. Most people don't like load as much as I do, which maybe is the Weezer.

[Andrew]

That could make it. That could make it Weezery. That could make it Weezer. He does it have. It doesn't have any cool incel anthems on it because we love that stuff.

[Craig]

I haven't checked. I haven't gone back and given it the incel read.

[Andrew]

They were playing Pinkerton in the coffee shop when I went there a couple months ago. And it's like we can't just like we can't just play this out in public without acknowledging anything about it. It needs one of those little Disney plus disclaimers.

Okay, get us out. We need to leave.

[Craig]

Okay, we gotta go. Thanks Andrew for letting me tell you about this book. Thanks everybody at home for listening. If you have an album that you think fans of Metallica and Weezer would like, please tell us. Send them. Send them to us. Overdue podmail.com hit us up on social media at Overdue Pod. Our theme song was not composed by Weezer or Metallica. It was composed by Nick Lauren. Just.

[Andrew]

They were not available.

[Craig]

They were not or interested.

Or did we ask? Who knows?

[Andrew]

Who knows? Who can say?

[Craig]

You can say, Andrew, you can say. If folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

They can go to overdue podcast.com our newly re.

Subscribed to Internet website that's definitely up and functioning and not the victim of elapsed Squarespace subscription.

[Craig]

Of course it would hit over a holiday weekend where we'd never look at it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, so what we've got link all the links that you talked about up there. We've got the. The books that we have read are going to read. Our December schedule is up there. I think we've talked about it already, so I won't let us read the whole thing again. The other URL to know about patreon.com overduepod we do not control that website's uptime. But it usually.

[Craig]

We do not.

[Andrew]

But it's usually a reliable way to give us cash money and get access to our Discord server to bonus episodes. We are winding down our long read about the Silmarillion. We have released multiple special collections episodes about the late the Latest and greatest three animated movies of the 2000 and tens including Despicable Me and the Boss Baby.

And what newsletter ad free episodes. All kinds of other stuff. Patreon.com overdue pod next week I am reading the Bookshop by Penelope Fitzgerald.

[Craig]

Yeah, I bet you are.

[Andrew]

I am. Just. Just you wait. Just you wait and see. I'll show. I'll show you. I'll show everybody. All right everyone, until we talk to you next time, please try to be happy.

That was a headgum podcast. What do you think makes the perfect snack?

[Craig]

Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really.

[Andrew]

Craving it and it's convenient.

[Craig]

Could you be more specific?

[Andrew]

When it's cravenient.

[Craig]

Okay. Like a freshly baked cookie made with.

[Andrew]

Real butter, available right down the street.

[Craig]

At a.m. p.m. Or a savory breakfast.

[Andrew]

Sandwich I can grab in just a second at ampm.

[Craig]

I'm seeing a pattern here. Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.

[Andrew]

Crave, which is anything from ampm. What more could you want? Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's Cravinience ampm. Too much good stuff.