Ep 738 - Glorious Exploits, by Ferdia Lennon

Summary

Overdue Ep 738: Glorious Exploits by Ferdia Lennon

Released: January 19, 2026
Hosts: Craig & Andrew

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Glorious Exploits, the 2024 debut historical novel by Ferdia Lennon. Hosts Andrew and Craig take listeners on a deep dive into the fascinating true history and inventive storytelling behind the book, which is set in the aftermath of the Athenian defeat in Syracuse during the Peloponnesian War. The conversation covers themes of survival, friendship, the power of art in crisis, and the intersections of ancient and modern storytelling.

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Main Discussion Topics

Setting and Historical Context

• The novel is set in 412 BCE, in Syracuse, Sicily, just after Athens’ catastrophic defeat in the Sicilian expedition — a turning point in the Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta.
• Thousands of captured Athenians are imprisoned in stone quarries, left to starve and die.
• Historical details come from ancient sources like Thucydides and Plutarch, though both have limitations (15:07–16:19).

Quote

"Put them in the quarry."
—(30:27 Andrew quoting the book’s depiction of Diocles’ decision)

The Author: Ferdia Lennon

• Irish-born, Paris-based, wrote Glorious Exploits over nearly seven years.
• Inspired by real events in the Peloponnesian War and struck by a Plutarch anecdote about Athenian captives surviving by reciting Euripides (13:03–15:07).
• Deliberately wrote the novel in a contemporary Dublin-inspired voice, rejecting the "pseudo-English" of many historical novels (18:44–20:18).

The Buddy Duo at the Center: Lampo & Gelon

• Lennon invents two everyday Syracusans: Lampo (the wiseacre, book’s narrator) and Gelon (visionary, slightly tragic partner).
• Their dynamic is modeled after classic comic duos: Beckett’s Vladimir and Estragon, Don Quixote and Sancho Panza, "burton and ernie." (20:40–21:23)
• Their friendship is peppered with insecurity, codependence, and humor.

Plot Breakdown

Book’s Premise

• Lampo and Gelon, both down-and-out ex-potters, become obsessed with Athens’ cultural legacy, especially the plays of Euripides (34:47).
• Inspired by the legend that Athenians avoided execution by reciting Euripides, Gelon proposes mounting a production of Medea (and then Trojan Women) with Athenian POWs as actors, in the quarry.

Recruiting the Players

• The pair trawl the prison quarry for Athenian talent, braving dangers from brutal guards and local Syracusans who torment the captives (37:04–38:08).
• They gather an eclectic cast, including Paches—a traumatized POW—plus orphaned children for the chorus (41:09).

Production Obstacles & Community

• The production is both an artistic act and a dangerous political statement. Reactions in Syracuse range from indifference to hostility, but some like the elderly costumer Alecto are won over (59:04).
• The play becomes a lifeline for both captors and captives, offering fleeting dignity and purpose.

Escalation & Tragedy

• Tensions boil over when anti-Athenian violence is unleashed at the performance’s climax. A local brute (nicknamed "Bluto") massacres most of the Athenian actors as the curtain falls (63:04).
• The community only intervenes when “Bluto” harms a local, highlighting selective empathy (63:39).

Aftermath & Escape

• Gelon is devastated, blaming himself for the deaths; Lampo organizes a breakout, smuggling out survivors including Paches (65:59–67:22).
• The novel closes on a note of ambiguous hope as Paches later seeks out Euripides in Athens to thank him for the life-saving power of art (75:15–75:33).

Voice and Style

• The book’s language is modern, colloquial, and often comic, echoing Dublin slang, filled with vernacular banter and expletives (20:18).
• Lennon wanted his Greeks to sound real and messy, not like “they’ve stepped out of a Merchant Ivory production” (19:21).
• Voice compared to Anna Burns’ Milkman and classic Irish lyricism (20:18, 43:35).

Notable Example

"Directors without a producer are like a ship without a sail. The medium of wind to Endeavor's nautical being equivalent to coin."
—(43:35, Lampo as narrator)

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Key Themes and Ideas

The Power and Limits of Art

• Central question: Can artistic expression offer redemption, hope, or even survival under oppression?
• The production is both a distraction (“our glorious exploits”) and an act of resistance, bridging victim and victor, master and slave.
• For Andrew:

"The effort is worth putting out there. Trying is better than not trying, and saving a little bit is better than not saving anything."
—(70:13 Andrew, summarizing the book’s ethos)

Modern Eyes on Ancient Worlds

• The hosts discuss the "Boss Baby Problem"—the idea that most ancient works survive due to quirks of taste and preservation, and we view “canonical” art through accidental modern lenses (44:29–47:06).
• Comparison to the survival of Euripides largely resting on the whims of later Byzantine scholars (49:14).

Friendship, Humanity & Survival

• The book emphasizes the meaning and limits of empathy: sometimes a community only recognizes suffering when it touches their own (63:39).
• The relationship between Lampo and Gelon is both profoundly moving and often comically insecure (33:39).

Memorable Quote

“…these Athenians are prisoners of war … there is not a lot of love lost between the two groups of people … the expectation seems to be mostly that they will just starve to death and get eaten by the rats that live down there in the quarry with them.”
—(37:04–38:02 Andrew)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Euripides Wordplay (Craig & Andrew, 6:26–6:41):

Andrew: "You need me to say it, don't you?"
Craig: "What was his name?"
Andrew: "Euripides–Euripides nuts."

• On the Quarry’s Origins

“Prominently features a quarry ... The author would go on kilometer walks around a park in Paris that was a disused quarry.”
—(7:13–7:34 Craig)

• On Accents in Historical Fiction

Lennon: “I was tired of ancient Greek or Roman characters sounding as if they've stepped out of a Merchant Ivory production … I … wanted to put it in my own vernacular.”
—(18:44–19:21; summarized)

• On the Humanity of the Prisoners

"Lampo and Gelon … trying to see the Athenians as, as people when the rest of Syracuse does not want to."
—(41:54 Andrew)

• Dramatic Climax

"He kills almost all of the Athenians involved in the production as Trojan Women is ending...The only thing that really stops this ... rampage is when Bluto smacks one of the kids ... that's when the people from Syracuse be like, okay, buddy."
—(63:04–63:39 Andrew)

• On the Book’s Mission Statement

“Those rats are the worst of everything under an indifferent sky...but the sound coming...that’s us giving it a go...decency and it's all we'll ever have to give”
—(69:18–70:10, read by Andrew)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:41 – Introductions and start of content
• 05:20 – Introduction to Ferdia Lennon and book’s conception
• 10:10 – Previous classics coverage and Peloponnesian War overview
• 13:03 – Plutarch anecdotes and origin of the “Euripides” survivors
• 18:44 – Vernacular style and intent
• 28:39 – Setting of the novel, main characters introduced
• 30:27 – Decision to imprison Athenians in the quarry
• 34:47 – Friendship dynamic, the idea to stage Medea
• 37:04 – Life and violence in the quarry; recruiting cast
• 59:04 – The costumer and community theatrical support
• 63:04 – Catastrophic end to the play, massacre of Athenians
• 65:59 – Rescue plot and aftermath
• 69:18 – Book’s “mission statement” excerpt
• 75:15–75:33 – Coda: Paches visits Euripides in Athens

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Reviews & Meta-Discussion

• Guardian review calls it “clever” but wary of stories that flatter the power of art—gives credit for avoiding “blithe self-congratulation” (76:54).
• NYT review found it sometimes surface-level compared to the Greek tragedies it adapts (78:33).
• Goodreads: Some readers find the tone and pacing uneven—slow build, frenetic ending, but the voice and “funness” are widely praised (79:31–80:25).
• Hosts compare the book to novels/playwriting about art as survival: Emily St. John Mandel’s Station Eleven and Athol Fugard’s The Island.

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Tone & Engagement

• Language is accessible, often irreverent, smart but not stuffy.
• Hosts banter about art, ancient history, and pizza styles (“Detroit-style pizza being like Pizza Hut crust”—31:41).
• Throughout, Craig and Andrew keep the conversation light while tackling questions about history, art, and the purpose of stories.

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Final Thoughts

Glorious Exploits is both riotously funny and deeply humane, raising questions about how art endures, what remains amidst destruction, and the value of even the smallest acts of decency. Lennon’s choice to use a modern Irish-inflected vernacular breathes new life into ancient history and invites readers to identify with its odd-couple heroes.

Closing Quote:

"Trying is better than not trying, and saving a little bit is better than not saving anything."
—(70:13 Andrew)

Recommendation:
If you enjoy smart, sharply voiced historical fiction, or stories about found families, outbreaks of meaning in dark times, and the messy, necessary work of art and friendship, this novel—and this episode—are worth your time.

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Further Listening/Reading

• Episode 144, The Last of the Wine by Mary Renault (covering ancient Greek setting)
• Compare with Athol Fugard’s The Island and Mandel’s Station Eleven

Next week: Fun with Dick and Jane (early readers entering the public domain).

Transcript

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

$5 for prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery. This is a headgum podcast. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy.

[Craig]

Of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy.

[Andrew]

Away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

And welcome to this here our glorious book podcast.

[Andrew]

Welcome to mid January 2026, everybody. Where the vibes are great and everybody's doing fine.

[Craig]

No. Yes. I mean that's how I'm feeling right now. And we hope that this podcast can just be a little nugget of distraction. We're going to talk about an era of history this week that is far removed from our current one.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And since we aren't, we've decided to just stop learning things from history. It'll be new to a bunch of people.

[Craig]

I think he. That's true. It was. This book is new to me. I've never read it before.

[Andrew]

Decided to just throw out everything that we've ever learned about how things go when you do certain things. And we're just gonna run the experiment again. We're explorers. We're experimenters.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah. We like, we just like to. We just like to see what happens.

[Craig]

Well, just throw.

[Andrew]

Throw it. Remember our friend in college who would enter somebody's door, dorm room and throw a bouncy super ball at the floor as hard as he could just to kind of. And he would y entropy. And then we would just kind of all live with whatever happened after that.

[Craig]

We've all been living with whatever happened after that. Decades of friendships. I'm just built around that.

[Andrew]

I'm just. I'm just thinking a lot about. Just thinking a lot about that.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

These days I read for our book podcast where every week one of us reads a book that we've never read before. Tells the other person about it. Tells you at home about it. I read Glorious Exploits by Ferdia Lennon.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's. Was it 2024 book?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Work of historical fiction.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Some awards which we'll talk about about.

[Andrew]

About the 400s B.C. so we're going back pretty far.

[Craig]

Pretty far, actually. And Craig, like, do you.

[Andrew]

Do you. Do you think. Because this is, you know, this is. This is taking place sort of in the middle of the Peloponnesian War. And just. If you're thinking about Peloponnesian War. Yes. I don't know why I said Polyphenusian. I'm just thinking about. I guess, I don't know. Peloponnesian War.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I don't know. Just like, who. What. Who do you think has had the bigger effect on the culture from this. From this era? Euripides or Thucydides?

[Craig]

It's not Aeschylus.

[Andrew]

It's not Aeschylus.

[Craig]

It's. Well, on the era itself or on the world since the era.

[Andrew]

Just pick. Just any way you want to define it.

[Craig]

But those are my only two options.

[Andrew]

Those are the only two options. Euripides or Thucydides.

[Craig]

I choose the author of the Bible. Hawkeye.

[Andrew]

Who? And what was it? What was his name?

[Craig]

You need me to say it, don't you?

[Andrew]

What was his name?

[Craig]

You need me to say it?

[Andrew]

What was his name? Craig, I just. I just need you to know that, you know, it's Euripides. Euripides. Nuts.

[Craig]

Fernia Lennon was born in 1988, grew up in Tyler, County Dublin. Studied at the University College of Dublin and University of East Anglia, some others from Roscommon and moved to Dublin. His dad's from Libya. His parents did split up when he was pretty young. He loved reading the classics as a kid. He wrote this novel while he was in Paris. I did spend some time. I'm still reeling. What?

[Andrew]

Keep going.

[Craig]

He was in Paris.

[Andrew]

This is very interesting.

[Craig]

He's writing in the early 2000 and twenties. He was in Paris during some of the lockdown. He would go on kilometer, Kilometer walks around a nearby park that was a disused quarry relevant to this book and that prominently features a quarry.

[Andrew]

He says in the acknowledgment section of the book that the. The. It took him almost seven years to write from the first line to the last. And he kept stepping away from it because like all. Like many writers, he would. He would get deep enough into a thing to be like, I actually hate this and think it's terrible.

[Craig]

Yeah. Heck, yeah.

[Andrew]

And then he would come back to it later because it just. In his. In his words, somehow I needed to finish it. Yet no amount of needing would have gotten me to the end were it not for the help of so many people along the way. This guy had so many, like, friends and professional Acquaintances who helped him make this book.

[Craig]

He seemed.

[Andrew]

He just. He's just like bragging in the acknowledgment section about how many people he knows.

[Craig]

That is an interesting read on acknowledgment sections, which is like, yeah, I've got a lot of people who want me to succeed. How do you feel?

[Andrew]

What about you? Yeah. Who do you have to acknowledge?

[Craig]

Look in the mirror. Who would blurb your book? All right, this is waking me up. Thank you for bringing me back from my days. Andrew. He is working on a new novel set in the this. Because this is his debut. So he's working on a follow up set in the 14th century during the Black Death.

[Andrew]

Ooh.

[Craig]

Or the aftermath thereof.

[Andrew]

Another cheer. Another cheery historical time period.

[Craig]

He refers to it as a literary medieval true detective. Well, do it that what you will. The man knows his buzzwords. As we said, this book was a medieval true detective.

[Andrew]

What time is the Super Bowl? He's just fully seoing the pictures for his book.

[Craig]

His book is published in 2024. It's his debut novel. It won several awards and was long listed and shortlisted out the wazoo. Some that you might have heard of. The Waterstones Debut Fiction Award, the Carnegie Medal for Excellence. He was long listed the Walter Scott Award. He was shortlisted for it for works of historical fiction. I think I'm going to go back and like peruse that award listing a little bit for us, see if there's some interesting stuff we've maybe missed.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we like historical fiction.

[Craig]

He also, I believe, won an award from the Premio Grego Von Rezzori Award. It is an award for translation of works into Italian, which I think is just kind of neat given the historical setting. You know, we'll talk about it being it's set in ancient Greece, but it is also features a city in modern day Sicily.

[Andrew]

It's primarily on Sicily. Yeah.

[Craig]

I will shout out many, many moons ago we did read a book also set in this era. The Last of the Wine by Mary Renaud, episode 144. Not set during this particular conflict in the Peloponnesian War, but set broadly in that era. So Peloponnes, if you're looking for more set in this time, you can go check that out. And maybe we said some other smart things about the Peloponnesian War that we've since forgotten. As Andrew said.

[Andrew]

I'm almost sure we did not. I bet we did not. I do have a classics major, but I was more of a Latinist.

[Craig]

You were a Latinist. We know this.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I was a drama boy, but like drama boy, I. Okay, what, what should I talk about the drama boys now?

[Andrew]

I was going to talk about how as, as a Latinist, that means my main interactions with Greece were it as like a conquered vassal state. Like really. It's not, it's not that I never did any Greek history. I just didn't do like Greek language. I did a lot of like Homer. But reading the translations in English, it's.

[Craig]

So funny to me too because like I did like one of the seminal courses of my undergrad is this like history of Western Theater course where we spent a lot of time on the Greeks. And then it's like we completely yada yada, the Romans. Because they all think actors are like worse than enslaved people. And they just like think the like, whatever, we'll take what we want from the Greeks, but we got our own stuff to do.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I don't know, I was really invested in all those guys whose plays informed every other play that's been written in the Western world. I guess.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I did my, did my senior paper on the differences between the Roman. The cult of the Roman Emperor.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

In like Rome versus in Greece and how a lot of like a lot of the imperial imperial cult in Greece was just kind of like working it into the existing Greek pantheon. Because those guys love God so much.

[Craig]

Huh. Interesting.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it was fun. It was good. It was a paper I'm still proud of. Haven't read in a long time. But I did, I did actually work hard on it.

[Craig]

You did work. I recall this about you instead of.

[Andrew]

Just doing like an all nighter. That gets me to a B minus, which is what a lot of college.

[Craig]

Welcome college students listening. We believe in you.

[Andrew]

We believe in you. That you can do better than us.

[Craig]

Brief overview.

[Andrew]

And if you don't, you can still probably basically turn out okay. Okay.

[Craig]

Anyway, I'm going to come back to my brief overview of the Peloponnesian War, which it's a very brief one, but I'll come back to it in just a second. There's a Guardian interview with Fernan Vernon Lenin. Ferdia Lenin. I just jammed his name together. Excuse me.

[Andrew]

More people should go buy a portmanteau of their first and last names.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's missing creding over here. He says he loved ancient Greece as a kid. He read Thucydides history of the Peloponnesian War and remarked on this incident, the invasion of Syracuse, towards later part of the war that ended in thousands of Athenian prisoners in a quarry. And then he read Plutarch's Life of Nicaeus. I think that might be the guy who negotiated a big peace in the middle of the Peloponnesian War.

[Andrew]

He did. But as of, as of this book, after the defeat of the Athenian navy, he's like been dead for a couple years and.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

People kind of like, some people kind of respect him still because he was like a big, a big name. And then some people are just kind of making fun of him because he was Athenian. And we don't like those guys here in Syracuse.

[Craig]

But anyway, so he, he's reading this Plutarch book.

[Andrew]

Is that Parallel Lives. It's got like four different.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Guys in it.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. And it describes this, this like little nugget, this dramatic nugget within the Syracuse stuff, this Sicily stuff that describes expedition.

[Andrew]

Right. It's the specific little leg of the Peloponnesian War that, that this book is mainly taking place amidst.

[Craig]

Sure that for some surviving Athenians, they did so by quoting Euripides. Their captors loved that they could quote Euripides. This is a thing from Plutarch. And Lenin was struck by this detail. He thought it was so fascinating. And because it's a very like to humanizing detail within kind of, you know, what could be a pretty zoomed out history. And it's so not bizarre, but it is like, you know, interesting and noteworthy. You could imagine what it might be like for those people.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the only thing about like talking about the historical sources of this, like Thucydides is writing as the war is happening.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Cops to like basically paraphrasing public speeches just to give people the gist of it. But so, so he's blogging, but he's generally held to be like a pretty, pretty good and mostly neutral sort of describer of events. And the main issue with the book is it just ends like several years before the war does. We have to turn to other sources. And then by the time Plutarch is doing it, he's doing it in like the first century. And so he's, you know, he's using a lot of sources that don't exist anymore. So you know, he's. He's linking back to sources that we can't really evaluate. And also obviously it's happening several hundred years after, after events. So you know, when we get little details from him about, you know, things that are happening that we don't have any other details about. Like is this stuff that would have been recorded somewhere else? Is this stuff that he's sort of like, fudging for dramatic effects. But.

[Craig]

Yeah, is. Is he David Sedarising right now? Like, what is like, you know, I don't want to think new journalism.

[Andrew]

I don't want to think about David Sedaris. Who's the David Sedaris of, like, David Sedaris. David Sedarius.

[Craig]

One of the things that this Guardian interview talks about is, and we'll talk, I'm sure we'll talk about this, that the two main characters of the book are like a buddy duo that's an invention of Lenin's. And he talked about it. He was so struck by this historical incident and what. That's what he wanted to write about. But he knew that, like most people, despite what you might have heard on TikTok, I don't think a lot of people are just going around thinking about these old wars all the time. So he's like, well, if I want to get a reader kind of comfy in this setting, I need to base it on something as familiar and kind of primal as, like, a buddy friendship. Like, I need to get two guys in the book that the reader can go like, oh, I. I either have a friend like this. I'm in a friendship like this, or like, I'm familiar with this kind of relationship through pop culture.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And you know who. What this kind of reminds me of?

[Craig]

What? I need you.

[Andrew]

I need you to guess what it kind of reminds me of, because.

[Craig]

Is this another Deez nuts? Like. No, it's not.

[Andrew]

No, it's not. It's. It reminds me kind of of HBO's Rome.

[Craig]

I was going to say.

[Andrew]

O.

[Craig]

Yes. I was wondering if we were going to get there. I don't.

[Andrew]

Haven't watched Rome in a long time, but it's similarly focused on a couple of, like, invented or composite characters who are meant to, like, bring viewers into the world.

[Craig]

Well, and then.

[Andrew]

Then they did that, and then they were like, man, this show is really expensive. Let's cancel it and Deadwood and go all in on John from Cincinnati.

[Craig]

All right, if you at home are listening and have been listening since the dawn of this podcast, please find every reference to John from Cincinnati, because Andrew's.

[Andrew]

One, but there aren't that many.

[Craig]

It's probably out there, though. It's probably out there.

[Andrew]

It can't be the first time.

[Craig]

It cannot be the first time, because we've talked about Rome a lot before, is the thing, and it's just a hop, skip and a jump over to Cincinnati from Rome. Cincinnatus was he an emperor.

[Andrew]

Cincinnati John from Cincinnatus. Re Associating. What else do you have about the Peloponnesian War?

[Craig]

Well, no, real quick about the book. It is written in kind of a Dublin Y voice. I'll be interested to hear some of the quotes you may have pulled. There's a quote from Lennon where he says, I was tired of ancient Greek or Roman characters sounding as if they've stepped out of a Merchant Ivory production. Merchant Ivory production being films that were made in the 20th century by James Ivory and Ismail Merchant, which would kind of go on to things like Howard's End in Room of the View that would have this, you know, later novels, kind of early 20th century Edwardian England.

[Andrew]

This is just how. Yeah, like everybody in every historical drama just kind of defaults to vaguely English.

[Craig]

Well, and now that you brought up Rome, I remember when they announced that show, there was kind of this interesting PR rollout where they're like, the lower class characters have Cockney accents and Caesar has a received pronunciation. And you're like, all right, whatever. But so he is, you know, he's an Irish writer. He wants to put it in his own vernacular. There's another Waterstones interview where he talks about this. He think, you know, he can himself, being a classical scholar, put it in conversation with someone like Aristophanes, whose comedies are slangy and idiomatic. So he's like, I can this. I feel fine doing this.

[Andrew]

If by doubly voice you mean it's pretty. Like there's a lot of vernacular and people cuss a lot like that. Yes, That's. That's a part of the.

[Craig]

There was. There were one or two reviews I read that, like, pulled out quotes that just had a kind of sing songy, poetic, lyrical quality to some of the turns of phrase. That felt a little Irish to me. And he also talks about. In that.

[Andrew]

I've got a few quotes. You can tell me how Irish you think they are. I don't have a strong. I don't have a strong take.

[Craig]

Well, no, I'm not Irish, so I can't specifically speak to it, but I think I understand what he's going for. And he also says that the two friends are influenced by, you know, Beckett's Dee Dee and Gogo, by Don Quixote and Sancho Panza. Just this trope of these, you know, a more melancholic best friend offset by a more exuberant kind of maybe outgoing friend that's like. It's Burton Ernie. Like, what he. Like this is we've been doing this for ages. And he wanted to explore that as well.

[Andrew]

It's an odd coupled situation.

[Craig]

Yeah. Quickly. The Peloponnesian War. Athens v Sparta, 431-404 BCE Athens had the navy, Sparta had the army. The original army, Navy game. It was kicked off by attack.

[Andrew]

I was gonna ask you to make like, a bunch of like. Like Delian League versus the other. The Peloponnesian League. Like, just.

[Craig]

Oh, they have about, like, sports. Yeah, they have the DH in the Peloponnesian League. And so it's a little unfair. And so, you know, it's kicked off with this attack by Thebes on Platea. It's the two main. There are two main periods of it, as I alluded to earlier, broken up by the peace of Nicaeus. And there was like a plague that happened in the middle of the first period as well. And the peace was broken up by this attempt to invade Sicily, which fell apart after the Athenians failed to take Syracuse, which kind of broke their blockade. And so then Athens. Kind of what I was reading is it's sort of surprising when you look at how bad this invasion went, that the war continued for another 10 years. Yeah, because Athens kind of crashes out and, like, loses democracy for a year or two before trying to bring it back. And then, of course, you know, Sparta would ultimately wind up winning.

[Andrew]

But then, like, after the Peloponnesian War, just like Sparta ends up declining not that long after that. Anyway. It's not. It's not like.

[Craig]

It's a. Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, you know, we can talk about the Peloponnesian War as a specific era in history, but there was, you know, there's stuff running up to it, and then there. That's the thing about history is it just, like, keeps going. We could try to draw lines if we want, but they don't always work.

[Craig]

No, it's not like. It's not like, oh, this session of Civ 6 is over. Let's go see what's next.

[Andrew]

It's like, well, Gandhi's trying to nuke me.

[Craig]

It's always Gandhi's trying to nuke me. But no. And it is. I was reading one summary of this that was like. And so ended the. Like the. The. The cultural center of ancient Greece. And I think that is one narrative around the Peloponnesian War is that, like, Athens and the Athenians, you know, were kind of the. Where all the playwrights are and all that kind of stuff. And obviously, some of those folks continue into the 300 BCE but that is not the leader of Greece, you know, at the end of this war. And so that's, that's notable, I suppose, but we're not sitting here talking about all the Spartan playwrights. But I know those guys just kick.

[Andrew]

Guys into holes, right?

[Craig]

Like, that's the whole thing that they just kick guys at. They're just every.

[Andrew]

I mean, it's cool that we can. Even as far back as ancient Greece, the world is still divided into nerds and jocks. Like, that's always, it's always been what the world is turned on.

[Craig]

You know how sometimes you think of a guy you saw? Just like in life, sometimes you just think of a guy you saw.

[Andrew]

Oh, like that guy that we saw who was eating that ice cream cone at that Phillies game.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I am now thinking of a guy I saw on the D.C. metro 20, 18 years ago. Very excited to bring home his copy of 300 from Best Buy. He was opening the DVD case on the DC Metro. Very excited for him. He's just, he's in my head, I'm.

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, his, like his inevitably like full screen formatted copy of the 300 that he had on the train really left an impression on you. Like, you know, it was full screen format.

[Craig]

You know, it was full screen. It was in the bargain bin. Anyway, we're going to talk about this book. That does sound pretty interesting. I have some other thoughts on the Greek playwrights that I think we'll bring up as we get into the book itself. So, Andrew, buckle up. Yeah, we're sailing across the Mediterranean into a break.

[Andrew]

Craig. This week's podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. You know, if you've got glorious exploits that you want to talk about, or if you are putting on kind of an independent production of a play that you're hoping to draw some attention to, there's no better way to do that than a website.

[Craig]

You know, I would love to advertise my ragtag production of a Greek tragedy on a website. And it sounds like Squarespace can help me.

[Andrew]

It sounds like Squarespace can help you. Squarespace can't help you keep the production from ending in tragedy, but it can help you get the word out with a great looking website. Squarespace. It's a website that helps you make websites. They give you beautiful templates, drag and drop tools. You don't need to know how to code. People are there to help you. If you mess up, I mean, you do. It's hard to do that. But if you do do it, if you do figure it out, People will be there to help save your bacon. And there's a lot of other stuff about Squarespace that we like. Here are some of it. Squarespace gives you everything you need, Craig, to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Speaking of email, with Squarespace email campaigns, all the tools you need to engage clients, promote your services and grow your business are built in. Set up email automations to stay connected, nurture leads and save time while seamlessly integrating your offerings into beautifully designed templates that drive bookings and sales schedule emails that reach your audience at the perfect time, keeping your business top of mind and driving long term growth. Also speaking of long term growth, there's analytics. Make smarter business decisions with Squarespace. Intuitive built in analytics tools. Review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement and track revenue from bookings, invoices or product sales. All from one place. If any of this sounds good to you, Craig, go to squarespace.com overdue for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Offer code overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Craig]

We're traveling back in time Doodle all the way past the Middle Ages, Pat. Past the Beatles. Past.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the Middle Ages.

[Craig]

The dawn of pizza artists from the Middle Ages.

[Andrew]

The Beatles.

[Craig]

The dawn of pizza and French fries and cars. We're back in ancient Greece.

[Andrew]

We're back.

[Craig]

We've made it.

[Andrew]

And every leap could be the one, could be the leap home.

[Craig]

The Wild Stallions are here playing guitar with so crates. And we are here to talk about the Peloponnesian War. Andrew, tell me about the setup of Glorious Exploits.

[Andrew]

Glorious Exploits. We're in syracuse. It's like 412 BCE.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Or BC. It's just BC in the book.

[Craig]

Whatever.

[Andrew]

And if you didn't know how we count the years, the BC ones, we count them backwards so that 408 is actually four years later than 412. Just keep that in mind for later.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

But it's 412. The defeat of the Athenian navy has happened relatively recently.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

They came over, they came over to Sicily. They decided, hey, listen, we're gonna kick the butts of some of Sparta's allies and we're gonna scare them, and we're gonna take some pieces off the board, and we're just gonna do a really good job. Being Athens and winning the Peloponnesian War, that is not what happens. Athens gets utterly destroyed. They start losing skirmish in the, you know, in the. In the recounting in the book, though, I believe this also tracks what we know about what happens pretty closely.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

They start losing little battles, and then they start losing big battles. And the Navy's utterly destroyed everybody who is on these ships. There's like a big, you know, there's a big town meeting, basically, where the politicians in Syracuse are like, listen, we got to show this is the book. Then he stops pacing, says he has something, something new and strange, something that will show the rest of Greece that we mean business, that we're Syracuse and here to stay. Do we want to hear about it? We do, Diocles, but he shakes his head. Actually, it's too much, too strange. Someone else should speak. But the time for that is long past, for we're Syracuse and here to stay. And we tell him as much. So he leans forward and whispers. No sound. Only his lips moving. We can't hear you, Diocles. So he says it, still low, but loud enough for us to hear. Put them in the quarry.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Andrew]

Oh.

[Craig]

So that's like a. We mean business. We're putting these people in the quarry.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we mean business. Everybody's gonna look at this human rights atrocity that we commit and conclude. And they're gonna conclude that we mean business.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

So that, you know, there is. There is no prison big enough that they could build to hold like 7,000 captured Athenians in it. And so they're like, hey, we're just gonna. We're gonna put them in these quarries.

[Craig]

We're gonna.

[Andrew]

We're gonna fence them up and we're just gonna leave them down there. And that's what's gonna happen. Yeah. What?

[Craig]

Oh, I mean, that sucks.

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, it does suck. Why? What did you expect it to do?

[Craig]

Dude?

[Andrew]

Like, they're. They're making them mine the quarries. They're just making them be down there.

[Craig]

They're not. And they're not like, giving them, like, Sicilian pizza or anything.

[Andrew]

I mean, they don't mention Sicilian pizza, but it's 412. I don't know if they invented their own kind of pizza.

[Craig]

They probably had squares, though. So they. If they had pizza, they could have had square slices of pizza.

[Andrew]

I was in a place last weekend that advertised a Detroit style pizza.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[Andrew]

And I'm like, who's this making. Who's this making happy, though?

[Craig]

That's a thing.

[Andrew]

No, I'm not saying it's not a thing. It's just like, trapped between better known and better respected pizza pizza.

[Craig]

The thing that I think about with Detroit style pizza is that it does the crust. Reminds me of the crust from Pizza Hut. That is.

[Andrew]

That is the complimentary or derogatory, observational.

[Craig]

Like, I feel like dumping.

[Andrew]

Choosing a type of pizza to dump on is second only to, like, is a hot dog a sandwich in terms of like.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Intentionally lighting a fuse on a bomb? No, in a. In a, like a forum or group chat situation.

[Craig]

When I bring up a pizza, When I bring up a Pizza Hut, I. I bring it up in the same way that I currently do. I've. In a place in my life where like. Like, I don't think that Domino's is pizza. I think that Domino's is Domino's.

[Andrew]

Like, Domino's is Domino's.

[Craig]

I want. If I want to eat Domino's, I want to eat Domino's. If I want any pizza, I want to eat Pizza Hut. If I'm gonna eat this Detroit style pizza, it might remind me of Pizza Hut a little bit. It might be better because it's probably cooked by, you know, a hole in the wall place that probably has, like, a little more love in the pizza. You know what I mean?

[Andrew]

Domino's is kind of the American cheese of pizza. Like, it's just not like, it's like crafts.

[Craig]

The craft.

[Andrew]

The craft single of pizza. Yeah, it's not like cheese, but its own unique thing. And I do want it specifically, sometimes.

[Craig]

Correct. So they put a bunch of dudes in the quarry.

[Andrew]

They put a bunch of dudes in down in the quarry, and they just gotta live down there.

[Craig]

Don't like that if I'm one.

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, they're not. No, you know what? They're not. They're not thriving down in the quarry, Craig, if you can believe it. So into this, you know, into. Into this milieu, we are introduced to our main characters. Our. Our Sattler and Waldorf, our Dee Dee and what's his name?

[Craig]

Gogo. Vladimir and Estragon.

[Andrew]

Yes, of course. Lampo is our sort of wiseacre. He's the one that we get the book from the perspective of, for the most part. And then there is Gelon, who is our sort of more serious guy, kind of our visionary guy. This book does a really good job.

[Craig]

Of.

[Andrew]

Portraying one of those friendships where, like, the two friends are close, and they're clearly close, but at least one of them is always kind of worried that they're, like, disappointing and not cool enough to be friends with the other one.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

That dynamic.

[Craig]

Never experienced it ever. No, no, no.

[Andrew]

And so they are. They are not, you know, they are. They are lower class guys. They're. They're basically unemployed, like former potters, both of them.

[Craig]

Do people not want pots anymore? Is that why they're unemployed or they made pot.

[Andrew]

The place where they made pots don't exist no more.

[Craig]

That's a shame.

[Andrew]

And they are happy just to kind of roll around and just be guys about town, mostly.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And Lampo and Gellen are hanging out as they do, and they're in a bar, and Gellen is sitting in a chair that just says Homer's chair on it.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And as he always does when he sits in Homer's chair, he starts getting kind of philosophical. He starts getting big ideas. Does Gelin.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And he decides, you know, what we need to do is I, you know, the. Athens has been defeated, but I really like this guy Euripides. I really. I think his plays are amazing.

[Craig]

Oh, interesting.

[Andrew]

And I am really worried that with the. With the other. With the utter defeat of Athens, that the good things about Athenian culture might go away. And so. And so what we need. What we need to. What we should do, Lampo, says Gillen, is we should go into the quarry and we should recruit people from Athens with some. With some experience, and we should put on Medea. We should put on Medea.

[Craig]

Oh, not.

[Andrew]

Not the Tyler Perry version, but. No, but the Euripides version.

[Craig]

And you. This takes place in. In four. You said 412.

[Andrew]

412, yes.

[Craig]

Okay. I was just checking the Euripides chronology.

[Andrew]

Euripides is like 430. Ish.

[Craig]

38. The. The earliest play of his we have is Alcestis from 438. And the latest that we have a date on is Iphigenia and Aulis in 405.

[Andrew]

And then they also end up doing the Trojan Women, which is like 415.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. There are two plays of his that I'm familiar with, and they talk about.

[Andrew]

Trojan women being like, oh, the latest. You're.

[Craig]

Oh, neat. Okay. The newest Euripides, like, I. I am more familiar with Orestes and the bacchae, which are 408 and 405. But I did read Medea for the show many, many moons ago, and I'm familiar with some of the others, so that's interesting. I was. I was wondering where this fell in the Euripides timeline, but that's kind of neat that he's like, ooh, my favorite. My. The. The hip new band. The new year.

[Andrew]

The new Euripides is out.

[Craig]

The new year.

[Andrew]

We got to go. We got to go see it.

[Craig]

Yeah, we got to go see it. Yeah, we got to go put it.

[Andrew]

On in the quarry with a bunch of, like, prisoners of war, mistreating. But they, you know, these two guys, they start going down the quarry and they start looking around for. For people who, who are familiar with. With Euripides and who could have the talent to put the thing on. They run into a big, mean, nasty guy who is just the.

[Craig]

The.

[Andrew]

One of the undercurrents that is. That runs all through this book is that these Athenians are prisoners of war. And the. The. The people. The, you know, people in Syracuse killed a lot of Athenians. Athenians killed a lot of people from Syracuse. And there is not, you know, there's not a lot of love lost between. Between the two groups of people.

[Craig]

Sure, sure.

[Andrew]

And so, you know, there are Syracuse. Syracuse and Syracusans.

[Craig]

Syracuse. If I've. If from the couple of people I know who went to the university, you just call them the Orange.

[Andrew]

There are a couple people from the Orange who go to go down into the quarry and just kind of beat up Athenians. And there's. There are guards there who are supposed to keep it from happening, but you just kind of pay them a little money and they look the other way. Like, nobody's really treating these Athenians as full people.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

And the expectation seems to be mostly that they will just starve to death and get eaten by the rats that live down there in the quarry with them.

[Craig]

Are they even like, is this like, we have a thousand people we want to ransom, or is it just we don't know what to do with them?

[Andrew]

No, they're not ransoming anything. It's just like these people tried to try to step to us and they got beat. And so now this is what they get.

[Craig]

We don't. We're not. We're not even going to build a prison. We just have a big hole.

[Andrew]

As they are talking about what to do with the 7,000 people, there's a suggestion that, you know, that they. That they make a treaty. And that guy who was. Who was working the crowd in the, in the bit I just read Diocles is like, do you make a treaty with a corpse? Like, why would we.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Andrew]

Bargain with These people.

[Craig]

That's a Hamilton lyric, basically.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Okay, well, Hamilton is a Diocles lyric, but sure. And so, yeah, Lampo and Gelin run into like, this big nasty guy who's like, just killed an Athenian. And they. That. That dead Athenian was with somebody else who is. Who is his friend. And Lampo and Gellen kind of talked the big scary guy off and. And recruit this guy whose name is Paches to. As a Latinist, my Greek pronunciation is going to be pretty horrendous, so I apologize.

[Craig]

That's fine.

[Andrew]

I mean, people have listened to us do two runs of Stop Homer time at this point. They're familiar with what we're coming to the table with. But he's the first person they recruit to be Jason, I think, in Medea.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And they start kind of amassing other people from here, other people to play the parts in both plays at some point. It's just Medea at first, but then Gelin, as he is like getting more ambitious about what this is and what he wants to do. He's like, well, we got to do the Trojan Women too. We got to do the newest Euripides. If we're gonna. If we're gonna help this guy. If we're gonna, you know, if we're gonna help this guy get off the ground, we gotta do. We gotta do his newest work.

[Craig]

Can I ask, are they planning to present these plays to the other Syracuseans or is it just gonna be in the quarry? For the quarry, The.

[Andrew]

The plans are pretty loose.

[Craig]

Okay, great.

[Andrew]

They don't have super well defined plans about, like, who it's going to be for or who's. Who's going to come. But they do, you know, they do start saying as they rehearse, like, we do have to. We do have to do this for an audience. Like, if you are.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

If there's not an audience there, you are just rehearsing.

[Craig]

That's true. That's how you do it.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So we do need to do it for an audience. There's another thing in here because they. Gallon and Lambo both style themselves as directors. They're not going to be in the plays. They're just. They're just putting them together.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And then they also find, you know, they make friends with sort of a mysterious, like, smuggler type character who is their producer.

[Craig]

What is his name? And there's, because that came up in the Guardian review, that there is a, like a benefactor from the Tin Islands who may be like, you know, vaguely Irish or like, based on an Irish Guy Turian. Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew]

T U I R E A N N. Yep. Is the name of the producer. They, they. There's this whole. There's a sequence where they run into some kids and they're mostly kids who have either been like orphaned or who've had like an older brother or another family member killed by the Athenians in the war. Like, these are Syracuse. These are orange kids using kiss.

[Craig]

I hope anybody who attended the University of Syracuse has no problems with us just borrowing the orange for this.

[Andrew]

Between the Detroit style pizza thing, the Syracuse style, like, we're just gonna have a lot of people who are gonna need to let bygones be bygones here in the last.

[Craig]

Like, we're not putting people in quarries ourselves. So, like, just hang in there. Okay?

[Andrew]

No, they run into these Syracusan kids who got beef with Athenians and they have like found these like hanging corpses in the woods. They're the corpses of Athenians that are still. They still have all their armor. And there's a. There's a big thing where they, they. They talk that. They basically talk the kids into having a pyre and saying a small blessing for the Athenians because they're still people. Like, that's going to be a thing that runs through this is. Is Lampo and Gelin kind of trying to see the Athenians as, as people when the rest of Syracuse does not want to. Does not want to see that. Like, that's one of the things that's like running through this.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And then these kids, you know, so one, these kids end up being like, involved in the production. They. They're like gophers. They lend their voices to the chorus. And then the armor that they pull off of all these corpses ends up being what they. Lampo and Gellen end up selling to get the. The. Some of the. Some of the money that they need. And they sell this stuff to Turian. And this is, this is the beginning of a chapter just after they've done this. And like that we're flush. This is all Lambo. It hits me sudden how foolish we've been. Directors without a producer are like a ship without a sail. The medium of wind to Endeavor's nautical being equivalent to coin. And all theatrical until now we've had of all of that. There's a lot of the effort in this that I've struggled with because I've struggled with how to include in the show because I do, I do kind of. I like how it is. Is deployed through this.

[Craig]

The voice seems like a big Appeal of them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the voice is fun. I enjoy the voice. How do you think about this, this description of the relationship between directors and producers? I just want to get a couple of. A couple of thoughts from you.

[Craig]

No, that's fine. I think it's interesting. I think it is a modern lens to view a historical approach to theater that is probably not accurate. And that's fine. I don't judge it. I think it. Like we talked a little bit about.

[Andrew]

How the whole book has a boss baby problem. By which I mean, that's separate though. But it's separate. But it's. It's in the, like the lens that we're seeing all this through is. Is inescapably modern. Right. And so that's the way that of. They're kind interconnected. These two guys are overwhelmingly concerned with like plays and a guy who just happened to have survived to the modern day.

[Craig]

Yes. Which you don't know which is.

[Andrew]

Which is actually. And you don't know if that's how they actually would have acted.

[Craig]

Thank you for shouting out the difference. Because the. The Plutarch thing earlier though, right? Because like even that is a historical remove from what would have been going on 400 years prior. Yes. You know.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And so we are, you know, we. We are like Lampo and Gallon are like a guy who's. The only movie who we've seen is the Boss Baby. We've talked about the boss baby a little bit.

[Craig]

Yeah. You can go to patreon.com overdue pod to hear our thoughts on the boss Baby.

[Andrew]

Our thoughts here. The 90 minutes we record about the boss.

[Craig]

I want to come back to the boss baby problem because I do think it is interesting and I love that we are in a world where the boss baby problem came out of a tweet but actually illuminates a like an issue of historical scholarship. And we'll come back to that in just a second. I do think the notion of directors and producers as we understand them here in the 21st century is incredibly foreign to probably the experience of anybody, you know, back in the day of this, of this setting. I don't mind that. As I said, it's kind of fun. I think it is like a little analogous, though maybe more overt to. So Hamnet is making the rounds in the Oscar as we record this. It's, you know, it's an out there film.

[Andrew]

Of course it is. That's the only reason you make a movie like that is to get an Oscar.

[Craig]

That's true. I haven't Seen it yet. I loved the novel. I'm a little scared to see the movie because I'm.

[Andrew]

I mean, it's not a horror film.

[Craig]

No. But, like, it's.

[Andrew]

It's not like really. It's not like Mithrigan.

[Craig]

It's. It's not like Mithrigan, but it is really wrapped up in, like, the death of their son. And I'm just a little nervous. I haven't. I haven't really, like, dove into a work of cinema about that since having a child.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, no, that sucks. That sucks forever.

[Craig]

Not. Not excited about that.

[Andrew]

Is. We're just watching anything where a little boy gets gratuitously killed.

[Craig]

But that is a. Speaking of. We're just in an episode about historical fiction. Like that is a book, let alone a movie that really borrows its power from the history and the other works of art that it is kind of leaning on. Right. Like, it benefits from you having any attachment or understanding of Hamlet or at least an interest in, like, learning more about it. Right.

[Andrew]

Or just. I bet a bunch of people are just like, why is it called Hamnet instead of Hamlet? And that's. And that's how you get them. That's what. That's what Shakespeare knew when he named him.

[Craig]

Give me that ticket, baby.

[Andrew]

This is going to generate a lot of interest in my play Hamlet.

[Craig]

But I also think Hamnet less overt than this, I do think is still, like, bringing some modern concerns to. When people saw Hamlet back in the day, they didn't know they were watching Hamlet, the play that's been around for 400 years. In the same way that if you produce Hamlet now, you're producing one of the great works of. Of Western theater. And so you have to, like.

[Andrew]

And some. And sometimes you're doing it, like, set in the Jazz Age or something.

[Craig]

Yeah. Or you're setting it on the moon to, like, absolve yourself of or give yourself distance from everybody's preconceived notions of the story and the lines and the characters and things like that. This is doing an interesting thing here where it's like, well, these guys like these plays. And so we're going to put on these plays. We're going to presume that Plutarch was on the level and that these are the plays that they were probably interested in because the Athenians knew them. I was reading a little bit about the boss baby problem of Euripides in general, like the three main tradition Tragedians. Excuse me. Right. Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides. No one in my life has made me actually try to care about Escalus. I think I may be right.

[Andrew]

It's kind of like a. Isn't he just kind of like a. Like a Beavis and Butthead kind of look at all?

[Craig]

No, that's Aristotle.

[Andrew]

That's more, I think, about Aristophanes. Okay, cool.

[Craig]

Aeschylus is the guy before Sophocles and Euripides. So, like, yes.

[Andrew]

So he's like the. The proto. Like, you. You look at this and it's, like, interesting to see where these. Where we impactful works come from. But, yeah, it's not a thing that.

[Craig]

You want to sit and really, he helps. Watch yourself introduce and, like, establish that there would be a second actor. He also is given credit for inventing the trilogy, which, like, okay, great. We can find somebody to blame for Rise of Skywalker. That's useful. That's good.

[Andrew]

I feel like he's lower on the list than a lot of people I could name, though. Like, he's on the list, but he's not in the top 10.

[Craig]

My entry into Greek theater was Sophocles, who wrote Oedipus Rex, which is, you know, a classic. But my. My way in was Antigone. I have a really soft spot for that play. I love that play. And he's credited with introducing the third actor and really focused on, like, ethical dilemmas. And then you've got our messy boy, Euripides, who is like, listen, all these characters have big, messy emotions and problems. Women had problems, women had problems sometimes. He's also credited with, you know, the prior guys had done it too, but he really formulized, formalized the deus ex machina, where a God appears in a literal. Literal machine over the stage and, like, resolves the plot. I think some of that is because he's writing about more emotional stuff that can only get resolved by a God appearing before anybody tears each other apart. I was reading a bit about Euripides. Boss, baby, problem. I didn't Google that. I googled other things to get here that we are, like, largely at the taste of some Byzantine scholars who happen to know Greek, who happened to, like Euripides and, like, created their best of Euripides volume that we have. Because it's all, like, people. It's so long ago that it's like, did somebody take the time to write their own copy of the thing that they liked? And did that land in the right library that didn't get burned down?

[Andrew]

No, it's just. It's very, very Funny to think about people in the year 4000 who are writing books set now and we're all just like listening to 3 Doors down all the time because the only record that survived is like, now that's what I call music. 13 or.

[Craig]

Well, that probably means that they do have Smooth, which is good. I like Smooth by Santana.

[Andrew]

So I was gonna call out All Star by Smash Mouth. But to suppose that we are all talking and thinking about All Star by Smash Mouth all the time is basically accurate. I was in our local hardware store a couple of weeks ago and All Star by Smash Mouth was playing over the speaker and the guy behind the counter was talking to another guy behind the counter about how much he loved the movie. And you know what movie he's talking about, right? Like, you don't even have to ask what movie he's talking about.

[Craig]

I was literally thinking yesterday that I need to fire up the copy of I Am Legend that you helped me watch so I could have a screenshot of when Will Smith says I love Shrek. Like, I just. I feel like there was a moment yesterday where I really needed a screenshot of Will Smith saying how much he liked Shrek.

[Andrew]

Well, it's a movie.

[Craig]

I Am Legend.

[Andrew]

I so often want a, like a frinkiac esque, like searchable, high resolution database of like 30 rock quotes somewhere that I can use. I want it so much that I thought about the effort that would go into making it myself. And that's. It's like that. But for that one scene where Will Smith watches Shrek in I Am Legend.

[Craig]

I can't believe. I still can't believe that exists. Anyway, so they're putting on Medea. Yes. It is interesting to think that this book is really hinging on like. Well, we know they knew Euripides. Let's tell a story where all the people in the quarry know Euripides. Like that is.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And you know, because it's because they had an inventive like phones would not be invented for another like 2500 years.

[Craig]

I thought you were gonna say 25 years.

[Andrew]

So. So they gotta find guys who just like know. Who just know. Who know Medea, who know Euripides, like, who have it memorized.

[Craig]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Andrew]

I know for like we lived through that the, the, the non Internet to Internet transition. And I know there was a time where I had more stuff memorized. It's just so wild to me to.

[Craig]

I used to be able to just like. To be able to walk up to someone. Yeah.

[Andrew]

To walk up to someone on the street and just. Just be like.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You're off book on this, right? You're good.

[Craig]

Yep. I used to know phone numbers.

[Andrew]

I know my parents landline number that they disconnected years ago. I know my wife's phone number. I know my phone number.

[Craig]

Uh huh.

[Andrew]

And I know the first three digits of a bunch of phone numbers.

[Craig]

Those are all area codes, though.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But I just like. I know like little fragments of people's phone numbers. Do I need to know for like, like business or tax purposes or something?

[Craig]

Sure. Or the last four digits if it's like a two factor.

[Andrew]

Two factor?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like I know the last. Yeah. Because I have so many two factor things I share with you for the.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Anyway, you're gonna put on a play.

[Andrew]

They're gonna. They're putting on place. They're put on place and they, they get the money and they. There's some subplots going on. Like, Lampo falls in love with an enslaved woman who works at the bar that they were at earlier. Her name's Lyra and she is from Lydia, I think.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

You know, she's had a real. She's had a rough time of it. But he. There does seem to be like a genuine spark between them. And he is like, Gelin is the one who's more serious about the play idea. But then, you know, as Lampo sort of goes along with that and helps Gellan with that, he's got this Lyra thing happening and that sort of gives him a sense of purpose.

[Craig]

Okay. Okay.

[Andrew]

And so we're, you know, we're just watching these two guys. They. They recruit Bunny and they recruit all the grease that they need. They are managing to get enough food to sort of feed them, and they're sneaking it down into the quarry and they're, they're watching these, you know, this hand. The handful of Athenians that they have enlisted, they become different from all the other Athenians down there because they're moving like they've got something to live for. Like, they've all kind of latched on to this.

[Craig]

Oh yes.

[Andrew]

This production as. As like a thing that is a break from their horrible lives in the rat filled quarry that they have to live in. Yeah. Lampo and Paches are becoming kind of. Kind of pals, Kind of real pals. Like, Lampo has a concern for him that goes beyond the concern of director for performer.

[Craig]

Correct. Sure.

[Andrew]

And let's see, what else do we need?

[Craig]

Are there complicating factors to them? Like, are there People who don't want them to do the play.

[Andrew]

We'll get to that in a little bit.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

There is a. There is a sort of. To do more Greek stuff. There's a sort of Damocles hanging over this where, like a rehearsal is interrupted by the big mean guy who killed Paches friend earlier. And he and Galen are beefing and he's like, these are Athenians. They killed. They killed people from Syracuse. This. This sucks. And next time I see you, I'm gonna kick your butt. He says to Gellen, okay, so we just. We just know then that's just simmering in the background.

[Craig]

There's. What's the guy from Popeye? The Bluto. I'm getting Bluto vibes from this big mean guy.

[Andrew]

Just a little bit. He's a little bit of a Bluto.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Lampo takes one of the. One of the. The little sacks full of coin that he got from Turian, and he's been. And Gallon was like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna buy some stuff. You go get the food that we need. And there's a whole sequence that stressed me out so much.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

Where Lampo goes to the market and.

[Craig]

He goes to his cousin who It's a Wonderful Life.

[Andrew]

Oh, no, it's not going to be It's a Wonderful Life. He goes and he talks to his cousin who runs a food place, and he's like, give me more food. And his cousin is like, you idiot. I hate you so much. But you do have money now, and that's changed the power dynamic between us because usually I'm the one who's bailing you out because you don't have any money. Let me go get the food for you. And then Lampo is like, well, now I'm in the market. I'm just gonna walk around. And then he started. He buys himself a nice. He's a director. He buys himself a nice. He buys himself a nice clothes. He buys himself a nice crocodile shoes. He goes to the bar where Lyra works. And the owner of the bar, Dismas, is like, you attacked an aristocrat last time you were in here, and I think you're banned forever. And Lampo's like, I'm not going to cause problems anymore. And Dismas is like, yeah, you're not going to cause problems anymore because you're banned forever. You can't come in here. And Lampo, like, flips him a couple of gold coins and he's like, whoa, Lampo, my friend, all us forget Given. And then he gets. And he gets back to the food place, and he looks in his purse and it's like, where's all my. Where did all my money go? And he and his cousin get in a big fight. But his cousin does kind of feel okay about it because it does restore the natural order of things to have Lampo come around here, like, not having money and begging for stuff. And I just. I didn't like reading that. Not because it wasn't well done, which it was, but just because, man, you.

[Craig]

Feel sad for Lampo.

[Andrew]

Lampo, just. Just. Just give me the money for a sec.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I'm gonna. I can. Listen, we can buy you nice clothes, we can buy you nice shoes, but we're gonna leave enough for the food.

[Craig]

I'm just imagining an episode of. An episode of Old Enough, but it's Lampo just walking around.

[Andrew]

Lampo, enough.

[Craig]

Lampo, enough.

[Andrew]

No, it's not nearly as cute when Lampo does it, though.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

But anyway, things are. Things are going okay. There's an older woman, a friend of Lampo's mother named Electo, who is the main.

[Craig]

An X man, I guess.

[Andrew]

Who'S the only game in town when it comes to, like, costuming and backgrounds and stuff for players.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

She, like, inherited like, a costume shop from her husband who died. And within like five years, she had driven everyone else in the. In town out of business because she's so good. So she's. They've kind of won her over to their cause. Like, they are paying her for everything. But she also is like, you're doing these plays. You're doing Euripides in the quarry with Athenians. Like, she. There's something about the audaciousness and the, like, humanity of what they're doing that. That also grabs her and makes her more, like, feel a little more personally invested in it. So they got that going on. They are. They found amazing performers to. To do all the roles. They're all. They're all men, of course. So they have children in the chorus one, when they do the Trojan Women, they actually decide to have one of the kids play. How do you pronounce his name? Astanax. The. Yeah, Hex. Hector's kid.

[Craig]

Astian Ax.

[Andrew]

Astian Ax. Yeah. They have a. They have a. They have a.

[Craig]

Called Scamandrius.

[Andrew]

Not in this book, he's not. But they have a real kid play him for the part where somebody throws him from the walls of Troy.

[Craig]

Whoa.

[Andrew]

Just like, get a rise out of the audience because, you know, men would have Been playing all the roles men are playing, like, the role of Helen and all the other. And Medea and all the other women in all these plays.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And they, you know, they put. They push a kid off a thing and have them land in a wheelbarrow full of grain. But they're like, man, people are gonna go nuts when they see murders. We've got a real. Yeah.

[Craig]

Oh, my God.

[Andrew]

And they, you know, they start. They. Lampo arranges, like, says Lampo wants to buy Lyra. And he talks to Dismas about it. And Dismas is like, okay, if you can give me 300 drachmae, like, I.

[Craig]

You can.

[Andrew]

You can have her. And Lampo's like, wow, that's a lot of money. I don't know how I'm ever going to get that much money, but I'm going to do it because I love Lyra so much. Much. And so that, you know, he. He is saving money. He's got a sense of purpose. They're both, you know, they're. They're both working on this. These productions, they're going well. They start advertising them through the city. Not just, like, to the Athenians and the quarry, but they're, like, actually trying to get people from Syracuse to come down into the quarry to see it. And along comes the day that finally, the day comes when the production is going to go up. And it looks like nobody's going to show up for a long time. But then, like, everybody in town shows up.

[Craig]

Up. Yep.

[Andrew]

And if you build it, it. And it starts kind of rough, like the. The chorus. They've got, like, stage fright. Not all of them, I don't think, are real, you know, are trained performers. So they. They're. They're tripping around, and all the. All the people from Syracuse are laughing at them and being like, oh, the Athenians, they suck. They're. Yeah, this is. This is a big mess, just like I thought it would be. And then Medea comes out and starts monologuing, and things quiet down enough that she can, like, capture the. The attention of the audience. And then. And then they're kind of wrapped mostly by the. By the production after this. It seems like it's. It seems like it's a real thing. It seems like it's going well. And then they. They do all of Medea. They do Trojan Women. The thing where they push the kid off the wall is received just like they want it to be. They, like, dump some wine all over the kid to make it look like he's bleeding. Everywhere. But the kid is like, you know, as he's laying down on the ground, he's, like, smiling a little bit because he's having a good time.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And then who comes through but Bluto. Bluto's here. The sword of Damocles has fallen. And he is raging about how these are Athenians and they killed a bunch of people. And it is really. It's a stupid and bad and wrong thing to be doing this play. And he kills most. He kills almost all of the Athenians.

[Craig]

Involved in the production after the play is over or during the play.

[Andrew]

At the. At the end, as. As Trojan Women is ending, he storms the stage and kills almost everybody.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

Paches makes it out, but most of the Athenians are killed. The only thing that really stops this. This rampage is when Bluto smacks one of the kids who is a kid from Syracuse. And that makes the. The people from Syracuse in the audience be like, okay, okay, buddy. And then they. They did get a musician who's from Syracuse who brings his little instrument to the thing, and he. The. The musician stands up to try and defend the Athenians, and he gets killed by Bluto. And so that. That's what really ends. It is like, now Bluto is a. Is a crypto who has a price on his head for murdering somebody.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

Because he murdered somebody who the people in town see as a person and not just like, Athenian prisoners who are dying in this quarry.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

And then the rest of the. The rest of the book is, you know, Lampo and Gellen are both kind of beat within an inch of their lives. And then the last. Sort of. The last act of the book is Lampo deciding Lampo, who has been, you know, not. Not as into the plaything, kind of along for the ride in a lot of ways. Like, he. He decides mostly for Patches, but also because there's just, like, something eating at him about how these people are people. Decides I need to, like, after the. After this whole mess with the play goes down, like, one of the. Of the after effects of it is that suddenly the people in the Syracuse. In the government of Syracuse are like, we gotta get these quarries producing again. Let's just. Let's just stop feeding the Athenians, and then they'll. Then they'll go away. So we're at a point where every Athenian is going to be facing certain death. And Lampo is like, I need to. I need to try and help Patches and I guess, whoever else escape.

[Craig]

Sure, sure.

[Andrew]

And maybe they'll die doing that, but.

[Craig]

At least they won't die of starvation.

[Andrew]

Well, or, like, you know, maybe being dead is better than definitely. Certainly being dead.

[Craig]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Andrew]

And he is. He's. And he's kind of putting the stuff. Whole thing together solo, most of it. Like, Gelon is in even worse shape than he is, and his, you know, he's been. His faith has been shaken because he. I think in putting on this play by Euripides, I think he thought it would have kind of a uniting.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

On all the people. And then things went so badly, and all these people are arguably dead because of him. And he's just really not. He's really in a bad way. And Lampo, who is a jerk who does had, like. He acknowledges that there's. There's some. There's like, a little poisonous voice in his head that is always kind of getting. Trying to get him to wreck every, like, social interaction that he ever has. Cool. Lampo does. When Gellen says, no, I can't do this, Lampo is like, well, what? You helped all these people die, and they would still be alive if it weren't for you. And why don't you just die? Whoa. So they have a bit of a falling out, and then Lampo goes and. And puts together this rescue plan where they're gonna. They're gonna bring some Athenians, like, up a slope in the quarry, and they're gonna break through a gap in the fence. They can only fit it through because they're all starving. And he puts all this together with the help of, like, Alecto and a couple of other people. And then the. The wagon shows up, up to, you know, pick up whatever Athenians they can get out of there. And then Gellen is in there. Like, he is. He has come around in the end, they get some Athenians out. Initially, Patches is not. Does not seem to be among them, but Lampo, like, basically kicks some Athenians back through the fence and is like, don't come back if you don't have my friend.

[Craig]

Oh, wow.

[Andrew]

Which is, you know, it's.

[Craig]

As a choice.

[Andrew]

They're good and bad things.

[Craig]

Women and children and my friends first.

[Andrew]

Well, there's not women and children.

[Craig]

Well, but, you know, just, like, capturing, you know.

[Andrew]

It's not the Titanic, though. It's ancient Greece.

[Craig]

Okay, fair enough.

[Andrew]

Titanic happened a lot later.

[Craig]

I understand it's historical fiction.

[Andrew]

You just didn't seem like you understood, that's all.

[Craig]

They all had boats. Like, it's just boats. Some boats are big.

[Andrew]

Oh, boy.

[Craig]

Nero played a fiddle While Rome burned like the Guys played the fiddle on the Titanic. It's all the same. It's just boats and fiddles and there's.

[Andrew]

Just, you know, there. There are a couple things in the book. Every. Every once in a while I'll. I'll read a book and I'll hit a section where it's like, oh, yeah, this is kind of the mission statement of the. Of the book, huh?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And maybe Lampo has brought the. The instrument of the slain musician to this fence. And that's like he's gonna blow into it to let the Athenians know where to. Like where to make their way towards so they can escape. And he's standing up at the top of this quarry and it's dark and it's raining, and like, all he can hear is, like, the mass of rats that are down below. And he says, I play. Though, of course you couldn't really call what I'm doing playing, but it clashes with the screwing of rats. They're awful screeching. And in my mind, those rats aren' just rats. They're everything in the world that's broken. They're things falling apart and the part of you that wants them to. They're the Athenians burning Hikara and the Syracusans chucking those Athenians into the quarry. They're the invisible disease that ate away at the insides of little Helios who till he couldn't walk. Helios is the. Is the dead small son of Gelin. Okay, Gelin's son has died and his wife has left him. Okay, It's a country song, but it's ancient Greece, so they hadn't invented country music yet.

[Craig]

Yet they had music, though.

[Andrew]

So little Helios, till he couldn't walk or in the end even speak, just cry with the pain. Those rats are the worst of everything under an indifferent sky. But the sound coming from the Alos Fr. Frail as it might be in comparison. Well, that's us, I say to myself. That's us giving it a go. It's us building stuff and singing songs and cooking food. It's kisses and stories to told over a winter fire. It's decency and it's all we'll ever have to give, I say to myself as my lungs burn and my eyes water because I don't have much left. But I keep blowing away at the aloes playing my song. But the rats are as loud as ever and this is mad madness. I'm pouring water in the desert hoping flowers grow. What does it even matter if you do? And the MUSIC STOPS like, part of the. The mission statement of the book, I think, is, like, trying is better than not trying and like, saving a little bit is better than not saving anything.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Like, the effort. The effort is worth.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Putting out there.

[Craig]

Having not read the book, I don't have. I. I can't put forth a grand theory here. I do think it is interesting to think about, like, Lenin's understanding of, like, you know, contemporary Irish history.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, I. I can't speak to that. And I'm not probably the one of us to make, like, the strongest thematic connection between what's happening in the book and what's happening in the plays that they're talking about either.

[Craig]

Yeah, me neither, to be honest. Like, I don't. I don't know these plays super well. I. I do think it is, like, you know, a guy roughly our age who, you know, everyone a generation older than him has a very clear understanding of Irish history vis a vis conflict with England and the Troubles and things like that. So I just think about that with. In. Through the lens of, like, oh, we have a bunch of people trapped in a court that are like, you know, of a defeated state now trapped by the victorious state, and what, you know, what are we going to do with that? So, like, there's something there. I don't know. I don't know what's there. But it. I've been thinking about it the whole episode. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Two other. Just short statements.

[Craig]

Yeah. And then I want. I have a few things I want you to respond to.

[Andrew]

What. What people expect rarely happens. Things that seem impossible come to pass. It's always been the way. The gods have the best seats in town and we're their favorite show. And then also, common sense is common, has no imagination, and only works by precedent. It leaves the man who follows it poorer, if not in pocket than in his heart.

[Craig]

How do our boys wind up at the end of the book?

[Andrew]

They. So they. They. Lampo. The reason why this. This escape thing is going to work is Lampo has gone to Turian and he's been like, I need to get some of these Athenians out. And Turian drops his sort of like, rich, foppish smuggler effect for a bit and is like, hey, I believe in what you're doing, but I cannot. Like, I got a lot of stuff on this boat that I do not want the authorities to be around. But then he, you know, he leans into Lampo and is like, hey, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be in this other place in A couple of days. If you can get them there, I can take them from there.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And it's this town, this town that was a Hikara, I think I mentioned earlier, it's this town that. That's just completely, utterly sacked and destroyed by the Athenians earlier in the war. Like, a big thing about the Peloponnesian War is it just becomes. It becomes this conflict where all, like, treaties and rules break down and everything is fair game. And this leads to war crimes.

[Craig]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Andrew]

Can't think of any. I mean, again, this is, you know, this is history. So we've learned from it. So this sort of thing doesn't happen anymore. But.

[Craig]

Yeah, but. No, but at the beginning of the episode, you said it's the middle of January, 2026, and we've all forgotten history.

[Andrew]

We've all for. Yes, we've all forgotten history. So they. They do get. They do get some Athenians, including Pachas, to the. To. To the. To the ship in Hikara and they. They sail away. Lampo does not end up with Lyra. Someone else comes in and buys her out from under his nose. It may be Turian. If you're. If it's the Turian, the, like, the Tin. The Tin Islands like you were talking about.

[Craig]

I think that's him. Yep.

[Andrew]

I think Turian may have come in and bought Lyra out from under Lampo. And I don't know necessarily that it was done 100 maliciously, because Turian does when this caper is done very pointedly a couple of times, be like, hey, Lampo, would you like to come work with me on my cool smuggler but boat? You seem like the kind of guy that I would like to have along, so it's, you know, it's left up in the air, like, what. You know, who. Who exactly bought her and what the okay. Intended effect of that was.

[Craig]

But what happens to Gellen?

[Andrew]

Gellen is he. He sort of forms a sort of father, son, ish bond with one of the little ragamuffin kids who had lost his older family members. So he sort of finds a family. Okay. And then there's a very sudden flash forward at the end where we find out Lampo's an old man. We are having this written down by one of the kids who still visits him because Lampo never learned to read or write.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

You know, Gellen, he teaches. He teaches drama for a little while, but then he dies. Like, he dies before Lambo does. And the city is sort of surrounded and it seems like everything's gonna go Bad. And we're just kind of. Of. We're kind of dotting eyes and crossing T's.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And getting the. Getting the record down while we still can. Okay. And then the book ends with this very brief coda in Athens four years later, where Euripides is about to leave. Because the historical record suggests that maybe he went to, like, Macedonia or something, right? Like, he, like, sure. End of his life. I'm not.

[Craig]

I'm.

[Andrew]

I don't know. Know. But this is, like, just before this happens, and, like, some guy who claims to be an Athenian survivor of, like, Syracuse shows up at the house, and it's patches, and he's, you know, he's made it out.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

And he wants to talk to Euripides about how Euripides kind of saved his life in a way. And we're not. We were not, like, party to that. That conversation. Like, we're getting this chapter through the did ears and eyes of, like, Euripides main servant guy. But sure, it's kind of like a. I don't know, like, a nice little coda about how, hey, something did some. Something did make a difference in a small way.

[Craig]

All right.

[Andrew]

And that's a good book.

[Craig]

I don't know.

[Andrew]

I had, like, the care. The Voices is mostly pretty fun. It works pretty well as, like, a little, like, adventured story toward the. Toward the end where, you know.

[Craig]

Yeah. It sounds like it kind of takes a turn after.

[Andrew]

It kind of takes a turn. Sideways act. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

But, yeah, I. I enjoyed it. It's. It's. I mean, it's not light reading, but it goes fast. And if you are more of a scholar of, like, ancient Greek history, maybe you'll. I don't know. That could go either way.

[Craig]

Like, it could go either way.

[Andrew]

It could enrich the work for you, or it could just heighten the. The boss baby problem and be even harder for you. But I had a good time with it.

[Craig]

Good. I'm glad that you had a good time with it. I have some reviews I want you to respond to, and I have, like, one or two other works to think about here.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

The Guardian review by A.K. blakemore. Really liked the play. Not the play, the book. But did you know, talked about the stories, about the power of stories are an easy sell in part, I think, because they subtly enable the producer. Ennoble. Excuse me, Ennoble the producer and the consumer of those stories, shedding a glow of valor on the profession of the former and chosen leisure pursuit of the latter. I have been thinking about this A little bit. Some of it's about that we talked.

[Andrew]

About that kind of story when we did the bookshop episode because the bookshop was not that kind of book. But everybody thought like even people in our discord too. Everybody thinks it's going to be that kind of book going in.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

But specifically because of that low hanging fruit aspect of like books about how awesome books are. Just make everybody who likes books feel good about books.

[Craig]

Yes. And Blake Moore does say, fortunately it's too much of a clever one to fall into the mode of Blythe Self congratulation. Which is interesting. Talk about that when we get to some like numerical starred reviews that I'm going to talk about in just a second. The New York Times review generally liked it but thought that it could have. It was a little surface level relevant relative to the works it is like drawing on like the Iliad or Medea or the Trojan Women. Like that there is a depth of feeling to those works that might not. At least for that. For that reviewer who was.

[Andrew]

Was many telling you up front like many of these things I cannot agree or disagree with but I'm glad to be. I'm glad be voicing them on the, on the show.

[Craig]

Well just that like if you are coming here for the like to see how a book might entangle with the themes of Medea, you might be a little left wanting. Right. It's got maybe some other concerns or. Or is more interested in being a little more fun than. Than a work like that. Which seems fair. You don't need to be Medea. That's okay. Let's talk about some reviews. Andrew from the website Goodreads. They have of course three stars.

[Andrew]

Three star Goodreads review.

[Craig]

Sarah had a lot of praise particularly for Lampo. Loved Lampo but said.

[Andrew]

Could you, could you do that?

[Craig]

Yeah, you could do that. Make a shirt that says I love Lampo.

[Andrew]

Based on the 22 year old movie. Ron Burgundy. Whatever. Anchorman. Yeah.

[Craig]

Written by Euripides. Sarah says this gets three stars for me mainly due to pacing for such a short book. It's a bit all of the place. I presume that's all over the place in terms of developing the story with a slow meandering pace to start start. Followed by a rather frantic ending. Goes on to then praise the book a lot after that. Do you have a thought on the pacing at all?

[Andrew]

I think the discussion we had kind of captures it. Like you, you. You clocked that the. The last bit of it is like oh, we're in a slightly different book now because it needs to be a story that ends.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I totally. I get that it didn't bother me, but, yeah, it is a. It does take a. It does take a turn.

[Craig]

At the end, Jerry said, I thought the writing was great, but the story didn't work for me. I didn't get this quote, love for the arts feeling that the book jacket talked about the story was often humorous and sometimes tragic, but still somehow felt a little shallow and silly. That seems to echo some of the New York Times review. What do you think of it as a. We just kind of talked about it, but any more thoughts on it as a. Like a story where we put on plays that are important. That is like a trope that we revisit in works regularly, whether it's film or TV or books. I have some thoughts, but I wanted to get your take first.

[Andrew]

Mostly give me your thoughts. Like, I. I feel like you do have to meet the book halfway sometimes. Like, you. A lot of the stuff about how Lampo and Gelin are both discovering and highlighting, like, the shared humanity between themselves and the Syracusans and the Athenians, like, a lot of that is kind of implied. So I guess you have to be able to infer things that people are implying to get that. Which is what might. Which is where the gap might be there coming from for reviews that are complaining about this. But yeah, yeah, I guess you do have to, like, bring that. That to it yourself a little bit because at no point is there some big monologue where Lampo sits down and talks about how suddenly he's seeing the Athenians as. As human beings or something. Just. Yeah.

[Craig]

Well, what. It is interesting, too. I wonder, like, you. Maybe you can't separate that from this. Like, what is the denouement of this book where they are doing, like, a prison escape, which the book has not purported to be up until that moment.

[Andrew]

No.

[Craig]

And so. And I was very surprised to hear that this is a. The production itself ends in tragedy, like literal tragedy, not a. The play happening. And so, like, that can change. Maybe your immediate reaction to, like, oh, this is a story about the power of the arts or the power of stories. And then if it's disrupted in such a violent way, that might, like, like, mess you up for it. I'm thinking of.

[Andrew]

You get it in. You get in little moments. I will. Like, one thing that I alighted over is as they are escaping Syracuse with these Athenian prisoners. Prisoners in tow, they do get stopped by a. Like, a Road Patrol. And the guy opens up the wagon and he has them dead to rights. And then he looks at Gallon Lampo and he's like, you're the guys who put on that play in the quarry.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then he's like, well, you better. You.

[Craig]

It's.

[Andrew]

It's not a good time to be traveling. You best to be getting on. And so, you know, again, there's a little. Just like a little moment of this meant something to somebody.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Even. That's. Even if it's somebody who you wouldn't expect it to. To, like, mean something to.

[Craig]

Sure, yeah. Station 11 is. Is one of the ones that came to me as a. Like. It is the. The book is about, like, keeping art alive and creating things in the midst of apocalypse. The show kind of leans into that in some other ways as well.

[Andrew]

Remembering Damage.

[Craig]

It is often about Remembering damage. We talked about Hamnet a little bit, and I think that is doing some. It's not doing the like. And then we put on a play thing, but it is, you know, wrestling with other known works. So there's something going on there. The thing that this book reminded me of the most nothing we've ever talked about on the show. Andrew. There's a play called the Island. It is by a playwright, Ethel Fugard, John Connie and Winston Nishona. We've never done Fougard for the show, but I probably should read Master Harold for the podcast at some point.

[Andrew]

Does it have anything to do with the 2005 Michael Bay film?

[Craig]

No. No. And it isn't. No, it doesn't. And it is an island where people feel lonely. And it doesn't have anything to do with Andy Samberg, which is kind of strange. It is, in fact, set on the island, on the prison island where they kept Nelson Mandela for 27 years. So maybe that's why it's different islands. Yeah, that's a very good play. A very interesting play about apartheid South Africa, where two prisoners decide to put on a production of Antigone, one of them portraying Antigone and one of them portraying. I guess that's Creon, who's representing the state. And they're. The plight of. The play gets wrapped up with the plight of one of them getting to get out of prison before the other. And so, like, that, to me, is like a direct. The most direct connection I could think of to this book of, like. And then we're gonna put on a Greek tragedy, and it's gonna be run through our relationship and reflect our relationship to one another. And we have different personalities. And we're finding it through this play.

[Andrew]

And yeah, I think another. Like you. You also just kind of have to accept that these guys, like, want to put on this play because they think that the play is important in and of itself. Like, it's not a thing where they're putting on one last play to, like, save the rec center.

[Craig]

Center. No, no, no, no, no.

[Andrew]

It's like, no.

[Craig]

And nor do they stumble upon it. Like, I. I can't remember what the setup of the island is if they like how they decide on Antigone. But you're telling of why Gen is like, we need to do these plays because they are important and the new hotness at the same time.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Is kind of interesting. So. Yeah, that's just what made me think of.

[Andrew]

And even, like, the Trojan Women also is, like, subtly commenting. I mean, subtly. For the people who would be in the audience there.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

On the horrors of war and what people do to, like, people that they've subjugated.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like it's thematically relevant.

[Craig]

It is. Well, thanks for telling me about this book, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Glorious Exploits. We got them.

[Craig]

Kind of a neat book. I didn't expect us to have as much to say as we did, but we had a lot to talk about.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it was kind of a lot to talk about for a book with googly eyes on the COVID It does.

[Craig]

Have googly eyes on the COVID What? Wait, it has Google eyes on the COVID And why is it called Glorious Exploits? And then we'll be done.

[Andrew]

Because they're doing Glorious Exploits. I don't know. Why is anything called anything?

[Craig]

Who's. Who's Gloria's Exploits?

[Andrew]

Lampo and Gallon.

[Craig]

Gallon. Okay.

[Andrew]

The main characters.

[Craig]

I don't know. I can't presume this.

[Andrew]

You wouldn't watch the movie Shrek and then sit at the end as the credits are rolling and be like, I wonder what Shrek they're talking about. It's the main character.

[Craig]

Okay, thanks everybody for listening. If you have Glorious Exploits that you'd like to share with us, send us an email. Overdupodmail.com hit us up on social media. Verdupod. Thanks to Nick Laurengis, who composed our theme music. Andrew. If folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue podcast.com, of course, is the old Internet website on the information superhighway. We've got the books that we have read and the ones we are going to read. We've also got all the links Craig talked about as well as a Link to our patreon page. That's patreon.com overduepod on that page you can kick us a little bit of money and financially support the show and then get stuff in exchange. Access to our Discord community, which is always popping off ad free feed for the show. Our monthly newsletter, Dusty Bookshelves. Our current long read series. We've just wrapped up the Silmarillion and are going to jump into the manga Akira soon in a series that we're calling Tokyo Drifters.

[Craig]

You'll also get ad free episodes of all these old of all the old long reads episodes of all the old long reads episodes.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Well ad free and also like a year or. And something before. Before people on the main people get them. So yeah. Patreon.com overdue pod thank you to everybody who supports us or is thinking about supporting us.

[Craig]

Us.

[Andrew]

Craig, what are you reading next week? What are we reading next week?

[Craig]

Craig and Andrew read Book Fun with Craig and Andrew next week. Tune into the show. We're doing Fun with Dick and Jane. Dick and Jane books early readers. They're in the public domain. We're going to talk about them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's another thing of our, our like partial celebration of things entering the United States public domain. Yeah, that happens every January. We don't have a name for it. We don't have kind of like a regimented way that we do it. We just kind of vibe it out.

[Craig]

Vibe it out.

[Andrew]

All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to our glorious exploits for another week. And until we talk to you next time, please try to be happy. That was a Headgum Podcast.

[Craig]

Hi, I'm Drew Offalo. And I'm Jason Afoalo. And we host the Headgum podcast two Idiot Girls. Each episode we're discussing plenty of topics that you would be giggling at at a sleepover with your weird cousins. We talk about all kinds of things, like weird dating, horror stories, maybe a really bad wedgie you had once or even a show you're loving and anything in between. So you can listen to two Idiot Girls on your favorite podcast app or watch full video episodes on YouTube. New episodes will be posted every Tuesday.