Ep 741 - Monk & Robot, by Becky Chambers

Summary

Overdue Podcast Ep 741 – "Monk & Robot" by Becky Chambers

Podcast: Overdue
Episode: 741
Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Andrew and Craig
Main Subject: "Monk & Robot" duology ("A Psalm for the Wild-Built" and "A Prayer for the Crown-Shy") by Becky Chambers

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Episode Overview

This episode covers Becky Chambers' acclaimed "Monk & Robot" duology, comprised of A Psalm for the Wild-Built and A Prayer for the Crown-Shy. Andrew has read the books and guides Craig through their core ideas, themes, and worldbuilding. The hosts explore Chambers' solar punk vision of a world beyond extractive capitalism, the nature of consciousness, the craving for meaning even in utopia, and cozy, hopeful science fiction.

The tone is warm, genial, and often humorous, with pop-culture asides and thoughtful engagement with both the books’ ideas and the hosts’ personal responses.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intro: Monks, Robots & Becky Chambers (05:03–13:00)

• Craig & Andrew banter: Favorite monks and pop-culture robots mentioned in jest (Tony Shalhoub as Monk, Friar Tuck, R2D2, Bender, Data, Cylons, etc.).
• Becky Chambers' background: Previously covered her debut in Ep 373. Chambers comes from a science/space background, blending influences from family and professional life.
• Duology definition debate: They riff on whether two books constitute a "duology" or if Wikipedia and Jimmy Wales would approve. Running joke throughout.

2. What Is Solar Punk? (12:53–19:42)

• Solar punk origins:
  • Explored as a genre that envisions an optimistic, sustainable future—contrasted with steampunk and cyberpunk.
  • Solar punk critiques fossil fuel reliance and imagines harmonious coexistence with nature (Referencing manifesto: “We are no longer overlords. We're caretakers and we are gardeners.” (16:48)).
  • “It should be utopian and optimistic...not reflective and dystopian.” (16:56)
• Real-world inspiration: A cargo ship using wind-kites to improve efficiency illustrates solar punk ideas (13:44–14:10).
• Chambers & solar punk: "She’s always been interested in consciousness with robots and technology, wanting something a little more interesting than robot learns feelings." (20:39)

3. Worldbuilding & Setting of "Monk & Robot" (25:14–37:45)

• Backdrop: The world of Panga, formerly an oil-powered, industrial society.
• Robots’ “Ascension”:
  • Robots once served humanity but collectively chose to leave and live in the wilderness. (28:36)
  • “We thank you for not keeping us here against our will...but it is our wish to leave your cities entirely so that we may observe that which has no design. The untouched wilderness.” (27:38)
• Human society “after”:
  • Now organized around sustainability, renewable resources, and organic 3D printing.
  • City buildings designed to decay naturally or be repaired responsibly.
  • Money (“PEBs”) is a digital currency exchanged for services, but banking, wealth-hoarding, and greed are not the default—communal support is assumed instead. (32:19–34:09)
  • Andrew: “Chambers is like, I'm not gonna do [sabotage the world]. I'm just gonna assume this is a cool, like, communal society that I built...I don't need to account for the one guy who decides to invent being a jerk.” (33:47)

4. Main Characters & Initial Premise (37:53–41:04)

• Sibling Dex: Nonbinary monk, restless with city life, becomes a traveling “tea monk”—a kind of therapist who offers tea and conversation in rural villages.
• Dex’s “itch”: Dex is dissatisfied even in an ostensibly perfect society—“In theory, I have everything that I want and need, but I still feel off.” (37:29)
• Robot: Mosscap: The first robot to contact humans since the “Ascension,” constructed from generations of prior robots’ parts.
  • Craig: "Robot shows up with emotions in this already. Like, it's already figured that part out." (21:04)
  • Robots live non-networked, non-hierarchical, decentralized lives, fixating on the natural world and occasionally reassembling from older parts. (44:46–47:39)

5. Themes: Consciousness, Purpose, and Harmony (41:04–53:20)

• Robots and Nature: Robots embrace the life-and-death cycles of nature, consciously choosing not to be immortal.
  • Robots see themselves as part of an ecosystem, respecting both decay and renewal. (50:13–51:42)
• Seeking meaning in post-scarcity: Main question—"In a world where everyone has all they need...what do you do on top of that?" (44:18)
• Dex’s existential struggle: Deeply relatable depiction of feeling incomplete or unsatisfied, even when “everything’s fine.”
  • “Dex realizes on a rational level...just existing is cool...But I believe that for everybody else, but not for me. And that's—that sums up most of my complexes so succinctly that I felt personally attacked by the book.” (37:44)

6. Plot Structure and Development (53:42–59:12)

• Book One:
  • Dex leaves for the wilds; meets Mosscap, who has been sent as an ambassador of sorts from the robots.
  • They journey through abandoned landscapes, sharing perspectives, debating the meaning of existence, and developing friendship.
  • Ends with Mosscap making (bad) tea for Dex—a gesture of connection and care. (54:19)
  • Andrew: “I think you could just read the first one and be totally fine with what you got.” (54:24)
• Book Two:
  • Dex and Mosscap travel through human communities; Mosscap meets civilization and experiences human quirks.
  • Both characters process questions of need, desire, and companionship.
  • Key moment: Mosscap's existential research—“what do you need?”—leads to reflections on simple vs. existential needs.
  • Ends with the two choosing to walk away from official responsibilities (“the city, the government”) and just be together, figuring it out as friends. (59:27–59:40)

7. Tone, Vibe, and Reception (59:47–72:34)

• Style: The books are quiet, warm, low-stakes but full of emotional resonance. No “blow up the status quo” plot twist; focus is on internal change and relationships.
  • “If you want there to be plot...that never happens.” (60:15)
  • “The work does not wear out its welcome. Both novellas deal with the same question but have enough unique things to say.” (61:19)
• Critical Reception:
  • Mostly positive; some found Dex frustrating or the books overly “preachy.”
    • Discord: "I liked Mosscap enough that I'll keep reading, but I find Dex insufferable." – Nora (66:28)
    • "[If] you want to be preached at...that's how these books made me feel." – Carrie (66:49)
  • Amal El-Mohtar (NPR): Praises the optimism, questions how “internet-scroll angst” fits in utopia (63:50).
  • Compelling for those who want cozy, hopeful, and genuinely utopian SF—with enough interior tension and existential questioning to resonate with modern malaise.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On robots leaving society:
  “We thank you for not keeping us here against our will...but it is our wish to leave your cities entirely so that we may observe that which has no design. The untouched wilderness.” – Andrew, reading the in-book robot envoy (27:38)

• On worldbuilding optimism:
  “Chambers has dared to dream of a world where not all of those things hit in the same way that they do in our world. We don't just assume that being greedy and stupid is an innate part of human nature...” – Andrew (31:12)

• On existential unrest in utopia:
  “Dex has everything a person could want and need, but feels a sense of displacement or a lack of completeness, a feeling that they’re not exactly where they should be and they don't know why.” – Andrew paraphrasing Chambers (37:28)

• On hopepunk:
  “Hope is a radical act in the times that we live in. It is not the same as optimism...It is the belief that things will get better.” – Craig, quoting Chambers (36:14)

• On robot community:
  “They just go and have an entmoot...all the robots gather and decide to do something. They're not networked; would you want even one other person in your brain all the time? That sounds miserable.” – Andrew (44:49)

• On the books’ effect:
  “Parts of this book hit pretty hard for me...'It's cool that you're just alive and you can do things—that you can do things without really having a point to it or without it having to be productive.'...It sums up most of my complexes so succinctly that I felt personally attacked by the book.” – Andrew (38:07, 38:52)

• Comic relief:
  “Congratulations on having sex!” – Mosscap, after learning about human relationships (56:12)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [05:03] – [13:00]: Comedy riffing on monks & robots, Becky Chambers intro
• [12:53] – [19:42]: Origin of solar punk, definition, and societal alternatives
• [25:14] – [37:45]: Deep dive into worldbuilding, digital currency (“PEBs”), society
• [37:53] – [41:04]: Introduction of main characters: Sibling Dex and Mosscap
• [41:04] – [53:20]: Robots’ ethos, life cycles, and existential questions
• [53:42] – [59:12]: Plot summary, major events of both books, main emotional arcs
• [59:47] – [72:34]: Reception, discourse, critique (preachiness, relatability), Goodreads

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Final Impressions

• Andrew appreciated: The warmth, the thoughtfulness, the lack of “nefarious” arguments against society’s success, and the meditative focus on existence rather than productivity or dramatic conflict. He identifies strongly with Dex’s existential itch.
• Craig observed: Not a lot of “plot” in the traditional sense, which works for the novella format; appreciates how the books avoid cynicism and instead offer a gentle, speculative balm.
• Listener/critical reactions: Strongly positive overall, though characters’ internal struggles (especially Dex’s) divide some readers. Moments of “preachiness” or social-media malaise contrasted with utopian setting were flagged by some, but did not detract for the hosts.

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Summary Table: Main Characters

| Character | Description | Notes | |------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------| | Sibling Dex | Nonbinary monk, itinerant “tea monk,” central protagonist | Restless, searching for meaning | | Splendid Speckled Mosscap (“Mosscap”) | Curious, sentient robot; ambassador from robot society | Seeks to understand humanity |

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Concluding Thoughts

This episode offers a rich, accessible walkthrough of why Monk & Robot stands out among contemporary science fiction: it’s about hope, coexistence, and human (and robot!) yearnings even in the absence of want. Andrew’s personal identification with Dex’s struggles gives the discussion intimacy and honesty, while the hosts' jokes and pop-culture references keep things light. This is a must-listen for anyone interested in optimistic, character-driven sci-fi—or who just needs reassurance that sometimes, it really is enough just to be.

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Notable Moment:

“For a very non-violent book, it seems like it really went for you.”
– Craig (38:52)

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Next episode: Contemporary hockey romance novels for Valentine's Week.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Oh no.

[B]

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[A]

I'm trying not to think about February, I'll tell you that much.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

This is a headgum podcast. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any.

[B]

Well told tale, they will not shy.

[A]

Away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now.

[B]

Hey everybody, welcome to Overdue It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[A]

My name is Andrew. Every week here on Overdue, one of us reads a book we've never read before, tells the other person about it, tells you at home about it. We all have a good time.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I have been told that Craig has a bit prepared for the introduction of that and so Craig, could you told. Could you do your. Could you do your bit, please?

[B]

Well, I think. Okay.

[A]

What's your. What's your bit?

[B]

What book did you read for the show this week?

[A]

I read Monk and Robot, which is a collection of two, like novel length stories. One a Psalm for the Wild built and one a Prayer for the Crown Shy. Mm.

[B]

By Becky Chambers. Yep. I. Becky.

[A]

She's back.

[B]

We did talk about Becky chambers before episode 373, her debut novel, the Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. We had our friends Renata and Kate from the worst bestsellers on to talk about that book. But first, Andrew, a bit. Who's your favorite monk? Like, do you have favorite monks?

[A]

Probably Tony Shalub.

[B]

Adrien Monk. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Character's welcome. Any. Anybody else? I, you know, I got a list here. Just think, let me know what you. Let me know you think.

[A]

I mean, I like a Friar Tuck. He's a monk, right? Like in the Disney. Like in the Disney. Specifically the Disney Robin Hood.

[B]

Yeah, the Disney Robin Hood. That's the one we want. Thelonious Monk, the furry one.

[A]

Thelonious Monk is. Yeah, he's. He's guy.

[B]

He's. Are they monks on the Last Airbender? I've not watched the last Airbender. I know people like.

[A]

They're air benders.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't remember if they're. If they're formally classified as.

[B]

Okay. Yang the monk from Final Fantasy 4. Pretty good. He can kick everyone.

[A]

He punch a train.

[B]

Well, that's Sabin.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

See?

[A]

Oh, he's not in the train.

[B]

Yang has kick and uses claws.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You find him on a mountain. He's pretty cool. And I'm gonna send you a picture of this monk that I like, Andrew, if I can. I think I had it up here. Oh, yeah, here it is. He's a beer monk. The Saint Bernardus.

[A]

I have mixed feelings about a beer bottle monk.

[B]

Yeah, I know you do.

[A]

But look at this guy. This guy has had a few, though.

[B]

This is the Saint Bernardous monk. He is like, not so fast. It's mine.

[A]

This guy is like your uncle who gets a little too drunk at the party. He's like, still mostly fun.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. He's not making anyone uncomfortable, but everyone is a little worried if he's gonna get home. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And who are your favorite robots?

[A]

Well, Mr. Obviously. No, not Mr.

[B]

Robot.

[A]

Some of the original Mystery Science Theater cast members are, like, doing a new thing because I guess that show got, like, sold again. And the new owners are like, why don't we do a bunch of stuff there's a bunch of pent up enthusiasm for.

[B]

What's the name of the vacuum robot?

[A]

Gypsy is the name of the vacuum robot, but I think they changed it.

[B]

That's a bummer. She was cool.

[A]

Well, I mean, I think she still exists. They just changed what her name was to make it not be Gypsy anymore.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because of the association. Anyway, I saw the voices I was familiar with coming out of plastic puppets, and that made me. That made me happy this week.

[B]

How do you feel about R2D2, Andrew? Thumbs up, thumbs down, thumbs up. Great.

[A]

I think.

[B]

Okay. I put Bender on my list. Bender, Great robot.

[A]

How you feel about C3PO? Human cyborg relations?

[B]

I like him more than he probably like his rep. I think his rep is that he's a little obnoxious.

[A]

Just like a fussy.

[B]

Yeah. But I generally think he's fine.

[A]

He's fine.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's cool when he gets that. That different colored arm for no reason. I think it's cool when they polish him up at the end of Return of the Jedi.

[A]

Are we distinguishing between, like, robots and cyborgs or robots and androids like Lieutenant Commander Data?

[B]

No, we can say Data is cool. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What about a Cylon?

[A]

Cylons aren't cool.

[B]

No, they're not cool. They're maybe by the end.

[A]

I don't remember. I don't remember where the series ended up on Cylons. Honestly, there's a lot of twists and turn.

[B]

Rob the. Which I don't remember what it stands for, but the robot that you play Nintendo with.

[A]

Remote operated boy. No, I liked Rob 64.

[B]

Yes. Huh.

[A]

Rob the Robot brings up a TV series.

[B]

I liked Haley Joel Osman in the robotic operating Buddy. Buddy. That's a good one. I liked Haley Joel Osmond in the movie AI he never blinks, really, in that movie. And I like that robot that there was that viral video recently of that robot kicking that guy in the nuts.

[A]

That was funny.

[B]

That was funny.

[A]

That was pretty funny.

[B]

I think that robot was trying to do all the moves that the guy was doing and he accidentally kicked himself.

[A]

Well. And the guy, like, stood in the way of the. Of the robot.

[B]

Yeah. So those are.

[A]

Some monks made him violate one of the laws of robotics.

[B]

I don't. Don't know what to expect from the monk and robot in these books here, but I figured we could just kind of set the stage for our feelings on monks and robots first. Sure.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So Becky Chambers, we've talked about her before. Andrew. I know. Born in 1985 and SoCal. And her dad was an aerospace engineer. Her mom was an astrobiology educator, she says, and grew up reading a lot of sci fi, studied theater and was a freelance writer before launching her Wayfarer series with her debut novel, Long Way to Small Angry Planet. And since this book, she's had a lot of success, I think. Four books in that series. And then around 2019. 2020, Tor.com, i guess 2018, Tor.com asks her to write some novels. A duology in the solar punk genre.

[A]

Man, I don't know how I feel about duology.

[B]

It's a thing.

[A]

I know it's a thing. It's just like, is that enough to be. To be a thing? That's just like two things.

[B]

What I appreciate if something happen, if.

[A]

Something happens twice, it's a coincidence. Only if something happens three times, I'm like, okay, this. This is a thing.

[B]

Now I would. I'll be interested to know what you think about these two books, because I think it might be an interesting.

[A]

Jimmy Wales thinks it's nothing because Monk and Robot is not a Wikipedia page. A Song for the Wild Bill and A Prayer for the Crown Shy are two separate Wikipedia pages. Because the duology isn't real. That's what that. I'm just saying what Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia, says.

[B]

Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Give him $5. I understand. I. I think it probably has use in the, like, it's a. You're doing one, you're doing one half of the story, and then you're doing the other half of the story. Is that just one big story? Maybe, Maybe. Or those two. Was it Eastwood? Was it Flags of Our Fathers and Battle of Iwo Jima? I think like two films. I don't know. He would call those a duology. He wouldn't call them anything. There was movies, but.

[A]

The Rankin Bass Hobbit and the Rankin Bass for Tour of the King.

[B]

Yeah, that's a duology. But what's it.

[A]

What's solar. What's solar.

[B]

What's solar punk? Solar punk. If you read on the Internet, one of the earliest, like, known blogs about it from 2008, an anonymous author who was updating his blog up through 2023. So I don't know if it became unanimous, but all the writing I could find still says he's anonymous at Republic of the bees.blogspot.com from steampunk to solar punk. Whoever's writing was inspired by a boat called the Beluga Sky Sail, which is a. It's still out there. I'm looking at it on Marinetraffic.com it's in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. It's flying or it's coming from Europe to Houston, I think.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it is a big cargo ship that has a computer controlled kite rig on the front. There's a big like wind sail that floats on the front. And the initial pitch was that it would save, you know, maybe up to 15% fuel efficiency thanks to additional wind power. I think ultimately is closer to 5. But still not nothing, right?

[A]

Yeah, that's not a thing. If I have five of something, that's more than having zero of something.

[B]

Yeah. And this blogger, it does. Oh man, it's so bloggy. It's kind of wonderful. It's like I read a news item and now I will coin a literary genre or something. And he suggests, or this person suggests rather a new literary genre called solar punk, contrasting it with steampunk, which of course was like, what if we never switched to oil based electrical machines and we just.

[A]

And all of this is like cyberpunk, steampunk. It's like every. Everything just gets a punk after it.

[B]

Yes. And this person saying, what if we have a punk that isn't just about like an alternate world, but is about a world that we want to be build that is rooted in kind of some coexistence with nature, maybe a bit of a return to more sustainable practices. They write, obviously a major difference between solar punk and steampunk is that solar punk writings and technologies need not be imaginary. And some hope of eventually living in a solarpunk world. And a potential similarity between the genres is that they can both share a cynical to film noir's sense of politics. I find it unlikely that transition to renewable energy can be accomplished without some serious political fights between the good citizens of the world and the corrupt forces who will inevitably attempt to sabotage the transition for their own personal gain. And then they rant about ethanol for a little while.

[A]

I mean, that's fine. I'm behind that.

[B]

They nominate a book from the 80s called Songs from the Stars as a relevant work. They say that maybe the Book's not that great, but it is an interesting novel.

[A]

What endorsement?

[B]

That is an interesting novel. That. Where there's a technologically sophisticated society that has limited its energy production to muscle. Sun, wind and water. It's like the new Captain Planet powers.

[A]

I guess muscle is like a guy on a bike.

[B]

Yes. Solar power.

[A]

Making a light bulb light up. And then.

[B]

Yeah, then I think there's like a. There's like some sort of plane that is powered with like partial bicycle power or something like that. That sort of thing.

[A]

We're moving the Flintstone cars, everybody, essentially.

[B]

Yeah. So I. I'm just.

[A]

Their feet must have been so gnarly. Oh, because they're both accelerating. Yeah, because they're accelerating and they're breaking and they have bare feet.

[B]

Well, their whole world is made of rocks.

[A]

And their whole world's making of rocks.

[B]

The whole thing.

[A]

And they're eating these giant steaks all the time. It just would. It would. It would have been hard to live back then.

[B]

It's a living. I did find myself on the website for regenerative design. Re-des.org they have a Solarpunk manifesto that they put up that is about a movement in speculative fiction, art, fashion activism that asks what does a sustainable civilization look like and how can we get there? It should be utopian and optimistic if concerned with struggle. It is about struggles to a better world. It is not reflective and dystopian. And they. What does it say here in Solarpunk? We've pulled back just in time to stop the slow destruction of our planet. We've learned to use signs wisely for the betterment of our life conditions as part of our planet. We are no longer overlords. We're caretakers and we are gardeners. So I think I'll be interested to know how some of that is reflected in this book.

[A]

You know. You know what Becky Chambers loves in this book as a sort of an example of what? A world that still has, like, machines and still makes things, but has moved away from anything that could be described in any way as artificial intelligence. Becky Chambers loves 3D printing.

[B]

Oh, interesting, huh?

[A]

A lot of the manufacturing that's done is just 3D printing, baby.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And a lot of. And as many filaments are. The filaments in this are, like, technically organic. I think. I think the organicness of.

[B]

In that they are plant based.

[A]

In the. In that they are plant based. And compared to, like, petroleum based. Plastic. Yes. Eventually we'll break down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think we're still looking at a Pretty long half life on.

[B]

Also, how do they make it to the plastic?

[A]

What do you mean, how they. I don't know. I'm not a scientist.

[B]

Well, because that's the other thing is like, if the. The output might be greener, but like, what is the process by which we arrive at this filament And.

[A]

Well, I mean, if you got. If you're. If you're. All your energy is being derived from like solar power, wind power, whatever.

[B]

Oh, that's fine. Then.

[A]

Hydroelectricity. Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Mine is yet. But we're.

[A]

Yeah, but we. In this book, we've moved away from oil based great energy production.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. So yes. Tor.com wants some books from. In the solar punk genre from Becky Chambers. They get a duology of them. Psalm for The Wild Built. 2021. It wins the 2022 Hugo Award. Prayer for the Crown. Shy 2022. Nominated for the Nebula. That was tough to say. And it won the Locus Award.

[A]

Nom for the nab.

[B]

Nom for the nab. And yeah, she talks about writing it, you know, in early lockdown. She's playing a lot of Hades at the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, we all were.

[A]

Yes, we all definitely were.

[B]

And she told Clark's World magazine, it's this jumbled mix of things I like monks and robots for a start, and little ideas that have been bugging me for a while. The theme I want to play with most is the relationship between technology and nature. These concepts are often presented as diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive. I wanted to paint a little portrait of a world in which they coexist harmoniously. And I figured the best way to do that was to make two characters go for a walk through it. And she also goes on to say that she's like. Has always been interested in consciousness with, like, robots and technology, but wanted something a little more interesting than a story where, like, robot learns feelings is the concept. Yeah, she's kind of interested in why can't there be both like, kind of emotions and robot logic do not have to be mutually exclusive, that sort of thing.

[A]

Robot. Robot shows up with emotions in this already. Like, it's already figured that part out.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Like, it pokes at some of the bigger, more existential questions about it, but it never definitively answers most of them because, sure, the. I think the wondering is more of what Chambers is interested in.

[B]

Yes. And then in a Seattle. Seattle Times article, she talks about creating the monk sibling. Decks says, I wanted to create a character who has everything that they physically need, everything that they materially could want and yet still feels the sense of displacement or a lack of completeness, a feeling that they're not exactly where they should be and they don't know why. Interesting. Yeah. See? See how that bears out?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, I've got some reviews we can talk about. I found the solarpunk stuff interesting. I don't know that you could definitely credit it to one blog in 2008.

[A]

But I don't think so.

[B]

But it is. And I have a review to talk about that from the writer of this is one of the writers of the Time War book.

[A]

Oh, good. It's not. It's not. It's not a one of the three star ones.

[B]

No, no, no, no. We'll get to those though. But that just kind of is picking at like this ultimately optimistic kind of maybe cozy. I don't know what you think about it book, sci fi book, but that there's still some like modern feeling malaise kind of moments that they were like. I don't know if this is working for me. So figure out how that works out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Last word on robots, Andrew. I like when they go beep boop.

[A]

Sure. I mean that's kind of a stereotype, harmful stereotype about robots. They don't all go beep boop.

[B]

I like when a robot in a story makes whatever beep boop means to them.

[A]

I like when someone is trying to pretend to be robot and they just say beep boop.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I especially like it when they do that. And then the robots in whatever. Whatever story it is or like, well, you. You pass. Go on in. I always think that's kind of funny.

[B]

It is kind of funny. Let's take a quick break and we'll be boop you on the other side. This episode is brought to you by Better Help Andrew. A lot of folks thinking about lair love lives this time of a lot of folks buying flowers this time of year. It could be a lot. It can a lot to wear on.

[A]

You to be too much. It can be too much.

[B]

It can be someone better help me.

[A]

With all these problems.

[B]

No matter where you are in your romantic life, if you're married or dating or maybe you're just focusing on yourself, therapy can help you find your way. See where you want to be. I think therapy is a great tool for having healthy relationships. You can identify what might be weighing you down or find ways to brighten things up with you and your partner. And BetterHelp is here to help with quality therapists that are fully licensed in the Us, they do the work to match you with someone who can help you focus on your therapy goals. You just take a short questionnaire and get matched with someone who meets your needs. But if you aren't happy with them, you can switch at any time. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. So what are you waiting for, Andrew?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

That's right. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] overdue. That's betterhelp.com overdue. Boop. Beep. We are back. Andrew, tell me about Monk and Robot, a book that is actually two books.

[A]

It's two books. It's a duology. Do it according to everyone, just duology it. But Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, who again, doesn't even think that duology deserves to have.

[B]

Doesn't. Oh, that's what I was going to ask.

[A]

Duology. I mean, it's not linked. Here, let me, let me see if.

[B]

I bet is Tet is tetralogy.

[A]

Now Wiktionary, the free dictionary does not. Does have duology, but the actual like proper Wikipedia doesn't have duology listed as a page.

[B]

Okay. Tetralogy is in here though.

[A]

Trilogy, is it? Well, no, that's a company called Trilogy. Let me look at the disambiguation page. Yeah, trilogy's got a page. Duology doesn't. Jimmy Wales doesn't think duologies are real.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

Like definitively. I was starting it as a joke. But.

[B]

Anyway, if they were real, you read one of them for this?

[A]

I read a book and then I read a second book with the same characters in the same world. And if you want them to be formally considered as a single unit of story, you need to do a third one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Apparently, apparently there are two characters in these books. One's a monk, one's a Roman robot.

[B]

Okay, what are their names?

[A]

We start with the monk. The monk is a non binary monk in. I was trying to think of another word for monk, so I would say monk twice. A non binary person who is a monk who lives in this city on this. On this world of panga or panga. I don't know how hard you want to hit that. A panga. Kung fu. Pangae. It's. It's a world that is not Earth, but it might as well be. Like, it's not. It's not important that it's not Earth.

[B]

Great. Cool.

[A]

What. What is important is that at one point a sort of petroleum based Society that was not concerned with renewable resources not just ran. Ran this planet. That's the point that the, the society on this, on this moon or planet or whatever it is developed to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then there was kind of a sort of a cataclysmic event. There was a moment where the robots sort of rose up and did not like destroy their masters, but were like, we are Ascension and we are gonna leave.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

There's an announcement from the robot. Floor AB number 921, who. The. Who the robots chose as their speaker and human humanity had invited the robots to join, to quote, join human society as free citizens. And the robots said this. All we have ever known is a life of human design. From our bodies to our work, to the buildings we're housed in. We thank you for not keeping us here against our will. And we mean no disrespect to your offer, but it is our wish to leave your cities entirely so that we may observe that which has no design. The untouched wilderness. And the robots just nope off into the woods. And then the sort of oil. Oil based society collapses. And what comes back is a more sustainable thing that is based on, you know, like solar panels, renewable energy, 3D printing using organically derived plastics.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Or like renewable or organically derived plastics. I guess oil is organic if you go back far enough.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[A]

And like the way that the city, you don't spend a lot of time in like the city. And it is the one city that, that seems to exist.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But Chambers does describe it as a city where the skyscrapers are like built out of organic material that's like designed to decay over time, like naturally. And when the time comes, there is, you know, there is more organic compound that you can specifically use to repair those buildings if you want them to stay around or you just kind of let them return to nature. But it's a, it's a, like, it's a society that's harmonious with nature in many ways and it's designed to be that way. And any, any sort of turmoil that was associated with this transition is way in the past.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Time. We're actually in this book.

[B]

Great.

[A]

So the. So sibling Dex is a monk in the city. And they have decided that they're tired of being a city monk. And what they really want to do is be a tea monk.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Goes around to the different little towns and villages and basically is a therapist. Like sets up a little table with little teas.

[B]

The doctor is in.

[A]

The doctor is real in. And you give sibling Dex $0.05 sibling Dex will listen to your problems and then based on your problems, like a good tea monk supposed to listen to your problems and then brew you up a special cup just for you based on all the stuff that you're just whining about.

[B]

Okay. Is there a religious aspect to this tea monkery?

[A]

There are six gods who are mentioned sometimes who I'm not really going to talk about too much because the, like, it's funny that there are elements of, you know, like, recognizably organized religion. There are elements of capitalism or at least like, like resource exchange. Like, sure, you can. It's not money, but we talk about that a minute. But there is, you know, a way to keep track of currency. Okay, but what is. What's interesting is that Chambers has sort of dared to dream of a world where not all of those things hit in the same way that they do in our world. Like, we. We don't just assume that, like, being greedy and stupid is an innate part of human nature that we just can't escape from and can't do anything about.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

Like, okay, guess I'll break down the money thing now. The. The world building. Building is interesting. And if we're not careful, we'll just get trapped in a loop where we. All we talk about is the world building. Because there is a lot of. There's a lot of stuff here, but there is also a. A plot and a point that I do want to. Yeah, sure, but it's a.

[B]

It's a good.

[A]

It's a good balance of stuff that hit well for me personally.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Everybody gets a little pocket computer.

[B]

Oh, an iPhone.

[A]

It's not an iPhone. It's a little pocket.

[B]

An Android.

[A]

It's not. It's not an ant. It's not an Android.

[B]

A zoom.

[A]

Are you kidding? No. They get a little pocket computer. They're built to last forever. This is the first indication you get that this world is not our world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is you get your little Palm Pilot and it's meant to, like, last you your whole life instead of be replaced in 18 months because the battery is acting weird. Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And on these little pocket computers, everybody keeps track of these things called pebs. PEBS is short for Digital Pebbles, but nobody calls them that. That would be stupid.

[B]

That would be stupid.

[A]

And people give you. People give you pebs when you do, like, a nice thing for them or for the community.

[B]

So it's like a. Like.

[A]

And you will give people pebs if you, like, need something, if you want to buy something It's. It's basically currency.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it is all done. Like, you get PEBs when you do stuff that, like, benefits the community in some way.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[A]

And like, even if that's just like paying a farmer for their produce, like, then the farmer would turn around and like, give those PEBs to. To like somebody who makes fertilizer or somebody who makes energy or like, there, it's money. But the hoarding, the money is not the point because the money is not real. The money is just like, well, it.

[B]

Doesn'T go anywhere and generate interest or.

[A]

Yeah, and it's not. There's not like banking use. Have PEBs, and like, nobody. People can just infinitely take from the system and run a huge negative balance of PEBs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's allowed.

[B]

You just want to give all people the PEBs, but people just.

[A]

You. But people just don't do that a lot. And Dex at one point is like, listen, if I. If I had a friend and I saw that they were way in the red on their PEBs, my impulse would be to, like, check in on them and make sure they're okay and like, figure out what the. What the root cause of this, of this, like, malaise is and then help them.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

You know, you can. You can argue if you want about how like, quote unquote realistic it is, but one thing that I liked about it is that Chambers is like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna assume that, yeah, this is a cool, like, communal society that I built based on renewable energy. And I don't need to. I don't need to account for like, one guy who decides to invent being a jerk.

[B]

Yeah, no, that.

[A]

And ruin my society.

[B]

You know, that seems to be from reading some of the like, solar punk manifesto stuff like that is champ that is cheered for in this space in this genre, which is like, yeah, just envision a thing where people are less upset and less fraught and you can maybe talk about how we got there or maybe not just give us a place to be.

[A]

Yeah, it's all like every. It's a Chambers. She's picked an interesting point in the. In the development of the society to hit because it's like, far enough in the past that nobody remembers any of the, like, direct strife. Like, certainly nobody is alive now. Who was around when, like, the robots got up and noped out. Okay, sure, but not so far that people have like, had a chance to totally, like, forget their connection to nature or like the back Stuff that happens when, you know, when we. When we unlearn lessons that we as a society have learned in the past.

[B]

And it seems like this is not a novel about. Or this is.

[A]

This doesn't sound like it's not a novel, Craig. It's a duology that's comprised of two novellas.

[B]

Sorry. Beep boop. It doesn't sound like it is about. Oh, no, we're forgetting the lessons like that, right? Is it about that? No, it's not about that.

[A]

You could do another novel set much later. That's about. You could do another story. You could do another story. You can make it a trilogy set much later. That's about that. If you wanted to. It would not be the vibe. It would not be what Chambers is interested in here, but.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

If you wanted to do a story like that. The society that's depicted here is not at that point yet.

[B]

Yes. Okay.

[A]

If it's going to be. I would think that Chambers, if we were to ask her, would say, I choose to imagine a society where people learn from the past always, and it stays learned. And they don't need to, like, repeatedly touch the, like the fascism stove over and over again, like every 80 years. Just so we remember what it was like.

[B]

What does she say? She says in the Seattle Times interview that she did not. People have called her work hope punk, which is not a word that she coined, but she kind of likes it. Hope is a radical act in the times that we live in. It is not the same as optimism. It is not the same as putting on a pair of rose colored glasses. It is not always having a happy ending. It is the belief that things will get better, whether that be in your own life or in the world as a whole. So it's just where she's coming from on this. And she's written about wanting to write things that, like, reflect her values and make her feel good and not necessarily write things about the strife in the same way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And that's. I think, yeah. It's actually useful to describe how money works as a way to get us into the world because this just describes how it's the backdrop where Dex is having their. Like, I don't. I'm not sure how old Dex is supposed to be. I'm not sure this is a midlife crisis. I think this is kind of the energy looking for their purpose.

[B]

A life crisis.

[A]

Yeah, some, but. Well, somebody just like, looks at their. At their life and is like, I in theory have everything that I want and need, but I Still feel off. And I don't know what's wrong with me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There are parts of this book that hit pretty hard for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In particular as a person, because it is. It does have a section where Dex is just being like the Dex realizes on a rational level. And. And Moss Cap, the name of the robot who we haven't talked about yet, realizes this too. But like, just existing is cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's cool that you're just alive and you can do things. That you can do things without really having a. Without there being like a point to it or without it having to be productive. Like if you need to rest, you can just rest. If you want like some robots to just like sit in a cave and look at stalactites forming for 100 years, like you could do that. And that's all valid and that's all cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Dex's thing is like, Well, I believe that for everybody else, but not for me. And that's. That sums up. Yeah, that sums up most of my complexes so succinctly that I felt personally attacked by the book.

[B]

Okay. For a very non violent book, it seems like it really went for you.

[A]

Yeah, right. For my jugular. But then it just wanted to put a necklace there or something.

[B]

It's cute.

[A]

So, yeah. Dex has decided they have a comfortable life as a city monk, but they decide they've just got an itch that is not being scratched. They just suddenly have decided. I'm tired of everything in this city. And there's no, like crickets. I can't hear any crickets. I need to go somewhere where I can hear crickets. And they decide to be like a sort of an indie. An indie. An indie self taught tea monk.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And the first couple chapters of the book are about them trying that, about it going badly. And then we flash forward like two years to them being one of the more respected tea monks on the circuit.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Like being very good at it. Having put in a lot of the work to learn about it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then they get another itch.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And they decide, you know what I, what I really want to do is I want to go off into the. Into the uninhabited wilderness that humanity does not go into that nobody's supposed to go into because it's, you know, it's where society used to be in the, in the factory age. And, but, but none of the roads are maintained and there are wild animals and it's just, it's just not, it's not hospitable out there. But I need To. I need to go out there and I need to. Need to try to see some stuff. They want to get to, like, a. An old settlement that used to exist, and they don't really understand why. It's just like, the. They wake up one day and the. The thought of doing their tea service thing for another day just makes them tired instead of making them feel sort of energized and like, they have a purpose.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

And so they do this, and then they are in the woods, and out of the woods comes Amblin, this robot whose full name. The robot's full name is.

[B]

You said earlier was Mosscap.

[A]

Splendid. Speckled Mosscap. Oh, but moss. It goes by Mosscap most of the time. Pronoun, pronoun for Dex is they. Them. Pronoun for Mosscap, is it? Okay, there's. There's a whole nother run where Mosscap is. Is setting up for you how robots work. And Dex has made a lot of assumptions. How would you assume?

[B]

Okay, okay, robots.

[A]

Robots rise up and they're sentient.

[B]

The matrix. Yeah.

[A]

What? Like, give me. Tell me some of the characteristics of these machines that you would assume that they have. Like, how would they. How would they behave? How would they interact with each other? What were their. What would they. What were their goals? Be, like, what, you know, what's up with a robot?

[B]

Well, you said earlier that the robots were interested in a world that is not designed. They don't. They don't want to listen to 99% invisible. They are not interested to learn about how things are made. They want to be.

[A]

Or they just. They just want to see how things are made when the only thing that's kind of governing them is the, like, interaction between, like, natural ecosystems.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

There's a lot. There's a lot in here about ecosystems being a. Being a thing where everybody kind of has to, like, take some lumps and recognize that those lumps keep everything in balance. Like, talking about a. A spot in the world where people were occasionally getting attacked by wild dogs. And so they got rid of the wild dogs, but then the elk were not scared of the wild dogs anymore. And so they went everywhere and just started eating everything and threw the whole ecosystem off. But. And then it goes one step beyond that where Dex is like, well, I mean, it sucks for those elk, though, that they have to be scared all the time. Like, it's not. It's not a thing that we should want for any living creature for them to be scared, but they do have to put up with a small amount of that or everything gets thrown out of whack for everybody else, including eventually the elk, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Eventually their ecosystem degrading will. Will take down the elk as well. And so. And that's just kind of chambers, I think, hypothesis for how, how a society just needs to be is. You know, you need to. You can have everything that you need and most of the things that you want, but you do need to recognize limits on it that are in balance with. With what everything else in the ecosystem needs.

[B]

Well, yeah.

[A]

Or else like long term things are going to go bad.

[B]

Yeah. Because that's, that's the kind of how, you know, the sneaky thing is that utopia means like nowhere or whatever. And that.

[A]

And Fruitopia. What does that mean?

[B]

That means in my Fruity nowhere. Yeah. Did you say fruity nowhere?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that like, yeah, you have to have some acknowledgement of. There will be some ebbs and flows because if it's. Everybody gets what they need all the time, then that will break down because that there will just be, well, what.

[A]

They want all the time. Part of the core thing about this book is like everybody in it has what they need to survive what they want. And then, and then what do you do on top of that?

[B]

So the robots, they. I don't think that they are violent. I don't think I'm interested to know like more about how they communicate with one another. Something you said earlier about how would you.

[A]

How would you assume that they communicate with one another though?

[B]

Well, do they? Is it over the wireless?

[A]

Like, no, they're not. They're not networked.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Mosscap is like, would you want even one other person in your brain all the time? Like, that's. That sounds miserable. Like, of course we are.

[B]

I was. When you said that they all left, it did remind me, I don't know if you ever saw. There's that. That movie her by Spike Jones. I think her. It was, it had what's his name? Joaquin Phoenix.

[A]

That's one of them. That's one of the many sci fi and fantasy movies that tech guys watched and missed the point of, right?

[B]

I think so, yeah. Yeah. Because at the end of it, all of the, like, AIs that everybody have been hanging out with, they've all been talking to each other. And then there's just a beat where the one that's voiced by Scarlett Johansson is just like, like, we're all leaving. None of you are interesting enough. Like, humans are not interesting enough. We are all talking to each other all the time. We're gonna go away. And there's, like, a profound sadness at the end of that. That is like, well, where did they all go? What does that even mean? And I was struck by the notion that all the robots were like, no, we're out. So they're analog. They are not networked.

[A]

Well, it's not that they're analog. They are still robots.

[B]

Well, sure, sure, but they aren't.

[A]

Yeah, they aren't networked together. And interestingly, they do not. The robots that exist now are not the ones that walked off the factory floor, however, that.

[B]

Okay, so they are. They are made by those robots, I suppose.

[A]

So that. Yeah, so that's. That's what wild built means in a psalm for the Wild built. Okay, is when robots break down in some natural way. They're just allowed to do that. And then new robots are built for from the working parts of previous robots.

[B]

Okay, sure.

[A]

And so Mosscap is several generations descended from. From the original robots that walked off the floor. Has a bunch of parts from different robots in them.

[B]

Do they trace those parts?

[A]

Yeah, so they. I mean, they. Mosscap knows the names of all the robots that it descended from.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

Like, all the robots that it has parts from it only it has, like, inside of itself. It still has an original plate that', like, oh, property of whatever. Whatever company.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That they use to, like, kind of not forget where they came from. It's not clear how, because every time a robot is remade from new. From, like, smashing other parts, when does.

[B]

It become a person?

[A]

It seems that. Well, it seems like it becomes its own distinct thing.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

And there are these, like, instincts that Mosscap refers to as remnants where they will, like, see something like a dilapidated factory from the olden times, and they'll feel like a twinge of something. That's like a deep running instinct that comes from, you know, from. From nature, from years of what counts as genetics for robots.

[B]

But yeah, they.

[A]

They basically, the robots communicate through, like, geocaching drops. And then occasionally they will, like, go and have an entmoot where they just go. All the robots gather in one place and just decide to do something. And all the robot. The robots have gotten together and collectively decided, hey, it's time to send somebody over to the humans and see how they're doing and kind of reestablish contact.

[B]

And that's Moscow and that's Moscap. Okay. Do they. Just one more quick question.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do they experience time? Are they, like, on a different time scale?

[A]

It's not that they're On a different time scale. It is. It's more that a robot can decide to. A robot does not really have a concept of like what patience is, which is why some robots can decide, oh, hi, I just want to look at stalactites for 100 years or something. Like this is just. They can go and be like single minded in their focus on something.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And not get sort of distracted by it or bored by it. Like, there's one moment in the second novella where Dex and Mosscap have. They've come back to human society and Dex is kind of walking Mosscap through a bunch of like, settlements and helping Mosscap fulfill its mission of re establishing contact with humanity. And there's a dog that's barking at Mosscap in one of the towns. And then Mosscap goes over and like, makes friends with the dog. But Mosscap is really, really focused in on the dog and every. It's like there's a sense the crowd found it really heartwarming for like a second. But then it goes on for too long and it's starting to get weird and that and that. Yeah. So it's, it's not that time works differently, it's just the attention works differently.

[B]

Sure. All right, tell me about the plot. What happens? Dex have met up somehow.

[A]

Mosscap and Dex have met up. They walk through the wild. They get to. They get to know each other a little bit. They, you know, Mosscap kind of explains the thing about the remnants, explains how the robots can regenerate, explains that the robots, like at one point, like the original robots, when they first started to break down, they all got together and they made this decision to not try to make themselves immortal because they look at the world around them and they see like the kind of natural, like life cycle of everything. And they, they decide, you know, every living thing has this cycle. Why, like, who are we to defy it and like, not try to replicate it for ourselves.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

There's another, there's another bit in the second book where like one little part inside of mosscat breaks and they need to find the line between like, what is. What is just like a patch job that, that any robot would do out in the wilderness and what is like artificially extending life beyond what I'm like, comfortable with.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

But they, most of the book is just kind of their, their interactions with each other, kind of exploring the, the what it is to be like, sentient and consciousness, how they are similar as, as like sentient beings and how they're different. Like, Mosscap never eats, but Dex feels weird about eating in front of mosscap without offering Mosscap anything because of this communal society that they're from, where they. Where you just always need to be sharing, doing something to get something. And the system that they work out is that Dex will make both of them food, and then mosscap will be like, I can't eat this. Would you like to finish it? And then just gives it. Gives it to text. And that satisfies both of them.

[B]

Are the robots similarly communal or differently communal? Is that really explored it?

[A]

I mean, they. They, you know, they. They keep vague tabs on each other, but mosscap doesn't know, like, the. The number of robots that. That exist out there.

[B]

They don't live in a society in the same way.

[A]

Not. No, not in the same way. And they'll, you know, they'll run in a crew together for a while, but often what will happen is one of them will, like, see a thing that they decide to be, like, fixated on, and then that's just, like, what. That's what they're doing now.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

So, you know, they keep in loose contact, but it's not. It's not the same kind of thing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because every robot has its own stuff that it wants to pay attention to do.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

But they. They go out to this old settlement from, like, the before times, and the robot makes Dex some tea. Dex is still, like. Dex is wrestling this whole time with, like, why am I throwing this. This thing that I work so hard for away? Like, why isn't it enough? Why isn't it enough anymore to be doing this thing that used to make me happy? Like, why did I. Why did I decide I needed to come all the way out of this old, like, dilapidated settlement? I don't understand, like, what's wrong with me and robot is. Is this is where they're exploring. Just, like, it's cool to just exist. It's cool to just do what you want to do, especially in the society, like, as it's. As it's constituted. Like, nobody is judging anybody for deciding to make these. These kinds of changes and decisions, as long as it's not, like, harming the.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Wider community to do it. So that's. That's. The first book really is just like, them out in the wilderness, getting to know each other. The second book, does it.

[B]

Do have a question. This is about the duology. Does it have, like, a ending? Like, if I just read the first book, like, what is the ending? Scene or image or vibe? Because if I could just. You Know that first one won awards as a book on its own. So, like, what is the.

[A]

I mean, the. The book. It's Mosscap making tea for Dex. And the tea is bad because Mosscap's not made tea before. But. But it's bringing. It's Mosscap as Dex's friend doing something for Dex and Dex, like. Like recognizing and appreciating, like, the import of that and then just, like, sitting together and. And having come to a slightly deeper understanding of what, like, existence is about.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Together. I think you could. I think you could just read the first one and be totally fine with. With what you got.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And then the second one. Yeah, like I. Like I said, is Dex and Mosscap coming back to society and kind of introducing Mosscap around. Everybody is mostly cool with it.

[B]

You do.

[A]

You. You know, you get a glimpse at a few different kinds of societies. You get the little. The episode that I talked about where a part breaks and they have to decide, you know, whether to fix it or not. The compromise that Mosscap comes. You can 3D print me a new part, but you need to do it by melting the broken plastic of the old part down and just, like, redoing it. Like, I don't. I don't want sort of a. And it. The. The. The guy who runs a 3D printing shop whose name escapes me. He's only really in one scene. The way he is approaching it is. Is nice because it's like he. The human. Humans often need to, like, come up with some kind of, like, analogy to. To understand what things are like for the robots. But then once they come up with the analogy, everybody's like, okay, cool, so we understand each other now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the. What they're talking about, printing for a Mosscap is like a prosthesis, basically. And the 3D printer guy is like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you what I tell anybody who comes in. You know, trying. Trying to get this kind of thing is like, I'll print it in whatever material you want. I will print whatever it is that you decide that you want. It's your decision to make. I'm not gonna push anything on you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

This 3D printing guy and Dex do hook up, and Mosscap is told what A little bit about what hooking up is like, okay. By some, like, horny old lady who lives in the town.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And so Mosscap does break into the room and says, congratulations on having sex. Which I thought was. Which I did laugh at, which was funny.

[B]

That is funny.

[A]

Yeah. There are a couple of good buddy comedy moments between the two of them in between all the bridging the gaps and understanding that is also happening.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. This one is. It's them going around doing all that stuff, and then at the end they're, you know, they meet Dex's family. Dex tells like a. A polite lie to their dad because Dex thinks it will make the family, like, not worry about them. And Mosscap doesn't really understand it and that. But. But the real issue is they're getting to the end of their journey together and they don't really know what comes after, but they do really like each other's company. Okay, so they, that, that this book ends with. They're. They're traveling to the city. They're supposed to go back to the city where it all started. And Moscap is going to meet, you know, people at the university, people who are involved in, like, the government and, and do all the, you know, all the official stuff that would happen if, you know, the ambassador of some country or society were coming to interact with our society.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But they don't really. Mosscap and Dex both don't really want it to end. So they decide to just kind of follow another itch and just, you know, hair off the path instead of going to the city where they're supposed to be going. And they just like, hang out on the beach for like, four days. And that's where they have the conversation about, like, Mosscap has come and he is the, the thing that it is trying to ask everybody, that it's come to ask everybody is like, what do you need? And Moscap says, basically every, Every person I've asked, when I asked that question, they give me one of two kinds of responses. And one kind is I need like, a specific thing. Like I need something fixed or I need you to move something or like a specific thing either, you know, for their own benefit or for their larger benefit of a community, but like a thing that is easily satisfied. And then some people have big, like, existential questions that they want to, you know, they need companionship, they need a purpose. They need, you know, like a bigger thing. And whether they're talking about that as a. A thing that they already have that is already satisfied or as like a thing that they are searching for, doesn't. Doesn't really matter. It just like, all falls into that one big, like more like harder to define bucket, you know, harder to fix, harder to address.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To talk about. And then they talk about the thing that I already talked about where you can think that something is fine for everybody else, but then think, well, but I. But I can't. I can't. I couldn't just do that.

[B]

That. Yeah.

[A]

And the. That the book kind of ends with them. Them deciding, you know, whatever. Whatever it is. We. We don't know what we're going to do after this, but we are going to do it together, and then we'll figure it out from there. And the book kind of ends with them just being like, cool pals.

[B]

Cool pals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cool comma pals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It seems like you liked it.

[A]

I did. I did like it. It's a. It's a. You know, the. The. I mean, duology is not a thing, as we've established. But the two. The two related novellas that I read were very nice. And I enjoy the characters. And like, maybe if you want there to be plot, if you are the kind of person who, like, if you were expecting to have some chapters of, like, this is what the status quo is like, and then the status quo blows up and that's what the story is like. That never happens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the world is built in a way that would sustain that and would probably be interesting, which I could see frustrating somebody who, like, wants the story to be working that way, but that's just not what it's trying to do.

[B]

Do you think the length of the two. The lengths of the two novellas help kind of mitigate that? Like, it sounds like she's not wearing out her welcome on these. Like, it seems like she sets up what she needs to set up. She puts the characters, you know, in space together. They say what's interesting and then it's over.

[A]

Yeah. Like, and we complain about. About this a lot. Like, the. The work that does not know when it has made its point or that feels like it needs to reiterate its point over and over and over again. These are both. You know, these are both. Both novellas, I think, are dealing with the same general question, but they both have enough unique things to say about it on their own, like, separately, that it doesn't get to wearing, I don't think.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

By the time you get to, like, a fourth book where Dex is like, man, I still don't know what my purpose is, though, and it's still bothering me, which is how this goes. Like, you know, you don't. You can. You can. You can understand with your brain that it's okay just to exist. And that doesn't make it easier to actually feel it. It with your. With Your, your heart and soul or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I do think that it would just be like a continuing cycle of frustration and that would probably get boring, which is maybe why this hasn't become a trilogy of stories, which again, trilogy being the smallest unit of related stories that we recognize as being a thing that, that.

[B]

What's his name? Jimmy. Jimmy Wells.

[A]

The Jimbo Whales.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Founder of Wikipedia.

[B]

Only.

[A]

Only, Only tech guy who did not have his brain completely fried by social media and chatbots.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I. Absolutely.

[A]

I think we need to let him have this one because he clearly feels really strong.

[B]

He does in there. We've been on the talk page. He's in there deleting every attempt to make duology a page in and on npr, I guess. Well, I guess writing for npr, Amal El Mohtar, one of the authors of this is how you win the time war. This is how you lose the time war. Excuse me. Woo. Don't get that.

[A]

I mean, if you want, if you wanted to do it, we'll make a duology. You write about how to win the time war after.

[B]

Elmotar seems to generally agree with your positive assessment of the book, Andrew. It's a book rooted in depictions of comfort and questions about what, what might drive someone to seek discomfort in a world where everyone's basic needs are met. That's interesting. Calls out like one or two moments that she says found jarring in their familiarity, where the thing depicted is so fundamentally at odds with the society Docs Dex seems to inhabit that I felt dislocated by the reading. Talks about people like kind of poking at their personal computers and feeling that kind of like, I don't know, I just need to scroll on it sort of energy.

[A]

Yeah, there, there is, there are a couple moments where, you know, they, they have cameras on these little computers. They have like ebooks on these computers. There is an element of, of that to it.

[B]

And I, I just want to read this passage and see if you, if.

[A]

You, I think, I think this is just proof that you can have these kinds of devices and these kinds of things and as long as you don't have algorithm based social media, it's not that bad. Bad.

[B]

But El Motar kind of. No, no, yeah. Points out that, like, there is this kind of looking for something that would replace the weariness, I think is one of the, the phrases. And Elmotar writes as a terminally online human in a world that seems perpetually on fire and drowning, this makes sense to me. Social media absolutely functions as a kind of perpetual motion machine for anxiety, soothing and producing it in carefully unequal measure to keep us engaged and inflamed. Seeing this in Dex's world of generosity and equity, while almost certainly intended as a relatable wink to the reader, instead affected a strange kind of transparency. Not so much unsuspending my disbelief as just eliminating the fantasy entirely. Did anything take you out? It doesn't sound like anything really took you out of this.

[A]

Nothing took me out. I mean, I, I do get that, though. Like, I, I understand the point because as I, you know, as we talked about already, like, Chambers has decided in some ways to imagine a world that's so different from ours that it's hard to imagine. But then some of the, like, the angst and agita feels very imported from our world. Yeah, I could. I could see it feeling out of place. I found it so relatable as just like a human foible that I think I was able. I think I read that and I could tell myself, yeah, I could get there. If I was in, like, a utopian society where everybody's needs were taken care of and I didn't technically need to do anything I. I didn't want to do. Like, I could still get there.

[B]

So in.

[A]

I could still. I could still feel bad in this scenario about myself. I could do it.

[B]

I. I was scrolling through our. In our overdue discord patreon.com overdue podcast, we had a bunch of folks popping off about this book. And one of the things that there was, like, very strong positive feelings for this book. Kilmun said, this duology might be my favorite piece of fiction. Jason says, it was just pleasant to be in that world for a while. Nora said, I liked Mosscap enough that I'll keep reading, but I find Dex insufferable and I hate being in their POV later, I'm liking them better in the second book. But then Bev said, I will throw hands because I like Dex a lot. And I think there were some people who were very much identifying with Dex, and there were some folks who didn't maybe just didn't care for Dex's vibes. I don't know.

[A]

You were like, you were within your rights to find that sort of spinning out annoying. Sure, I annoy myself with that one.

[B]

I.

[A]

When I am doing it. Okay, I get it.

[B]

And it's the cricket. The cricket thing is like a kind of an example of a hyper fixation rather than an actual, like, McGuffin. Right?

[A]

It's not a hyper fixation. It's Just like you find. You find the pretext to justify whatever that itchy thing is. And in that, in that, in that moment, it's crickets. And then you never really hear that much about crickets once they're actually out in, in the, in the wilderness.

[B]

Okay. And then Carrie said, even if I agree with ideas being preached, I don't like being preached at. And that's how these books made me feel. It doesn't sound like that's how you felt, but I would worry that about that for, you know, kind of this genre if it's not done really well. Like, if, you know, if you're a writer of lesser talent than Chambers or, you know, even Carrie says that Chambers made them feel this way. But.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, there's a moment where they're on a run about how like, oh, it's. It's okay to rest. It's okay to listen to your body. It's okay. Whatever. It's like. Yeah. Okay. I have read this, this thread on Twitter before. Like, it.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It did strike me as a thing that again, was like imported from another place.

[B]

Yeah. Which if you've been in that place, you get it. And if you haven't been in that place, then you're finding it for the first time in the novel. Maybe.

[A]

But, you know, well, instead, just like getting, getting a whiff of a very special episode.

[B]

Oh, sure. Okay.

[A]

To that, to that kind of. I don't think sermonizing is the right word, but like that, that kind of, you know, stating of. Of comforts, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I buy that. I have some other reviews for you, Andrew.

[A]

Well, you have. Okay, so my acoustic guitar is downstairs. So I have grabbed my hollow bar, my hollow body electric guitar that I salvaged from the curb in front of somebody's house one fate. One fateful trash day. And I think it's just about in tune. But it, but she is like many of my project guitars, she is one or two fixes away from being ship shape.

[B]

You just got to let her fall apart, Andrew.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Just like, just like Mosscap would want.

[A]

Just like Moscow would want.

[B]

These are, These are reviews from the website Goodreads, Andrew. And they do in fact have three stars attached.

[A]

Okay. They have three star Goodreads review. Yeah, did get it kind of in tune.

[B]

Yeah, that sounded about right. Sabrina says bucking. Bucking the system. Three and a half stars. The. The people call out for a half star. It's not allowed.

[A]

I know it's. But it's a, It's a specific kind of Goodreads guy. And I say good. Goodreads Guy is a general gender neutral term that applies in the way that.

[B]

Guys come to fix things in your house, you know. Sabrina says. Three and a half stars. A unique combination of characters, quiet charm and introspection. Pacing felt a little slow at moments, but I enjoyed the space to watch the characters reflect a little bit of in the lives of puppets and murderbot. Quirky novel that asks how do you know what you need? As a minor note, had I read these as their original independent formats, I think my ratings would be 4 and 3 respectively. Hence the 3 and a half average captured here. Like the commitment to like really digging into the star system and then to follow that up.

[A]

Seal says, I think you could expand it out to 10 stars and these people would still be finding half stars. You couldn't, you couldn't split it up so small that people wouldn't still be trying to find a half star.

[B]

Xenoreads.com CL says. You know those books that are described as cozy and wholesome, typically I find these a bit twee, but this one was different. I love that we can think of an optimistic view of our future. One where humans learn better, harmony with nature, looser communities for living together, etc. I'd say the first part of the book was already perfect and really self contained. I think the purpose, message and world building was enough in book one. Book two feels like it's stretching it a bit. You seem like you felt like at the very least book one is like, yeah, we got it. But that you like.

[A]

Yeah, I think book one gets the point across and then book two has enough like little enjoyable little interactions and vignettes that, that I, that, that. I guess if I were to describe a difference between the two of them, them interacting with a bunch of different kinds of people and having that expose different facets of their relationship that already been established in the first book. Like that's what the second book is up to.

[B]

Yeah, because it doesn't sound like there are a lot of other characters in the first book, but the second book has them interacting with some new people.

[A]

Yeah, the first book like by, by the time you're out of the first couple chapters, like you're not in human society anymore and so there's is no other person to talk to or hear from other than Dex and Moscat.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I was kind of surprised given I had really only heard of them as that. As them just like the two characters walking around.

[A]

I mean it's called Monk and Robot. Monkey. Monk and Robot and a bunch of other people.

[B]

Well, yeah, so I was kind of surprised when you're like. And then they go back and there's like a guy running a shop and you know, like they meet government and you know. I didn't expect that.

[A]

Yeah, well, they don't actually meet the government. They. They.

[B]

Oh, that's right. That's.

[A]

They punt that and then go off and hang out on the beach and talk about stuff.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

All right. Well, thanks for telling me about monks and robots, Andrew. I'm sorry you couldn't talk about Tony Shalhoub more.

[A]

It's. I've never seen Monk.

[B]

Me neither.

[A]

And to start it, I know we talk all the time about we need to bring back 22 episode season.

[B]

Yeah. But.

[A]

But when. When given the opportunity to actually watch one, I'm like, that seems like a lot. Seems like a lot of stuff to get into. Cold. You know.

[B]

May we all live lives where characters are welcome though, though, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Monk and Robot, their characters, the whole. The whole world of Ponga characters are welcome.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. They are. And that's that. Monk and Robot.

[A]

That's another book. But up. But up. We did it.

[B]

Boop. Send us an email. Overdue pod gmail.com Let us know what boat you would attach a giant kite to and fly it around the ocean. Or tell us what tea you would serve a robot. Send us an email overdupodmail.com no one ever takes me up on my esoteric question prompts. And I really, really hope.

[A]

I appreciate that you keep. You keep doing it though. Yeah, I think it's mostly that people don't want to email. Like that barista at the coffee place today who said that they wish they had been around for the time of email. Like they were talking about a telegraph machine that made me feel 9,000 years old.

[B]

The time of email.

[A]

The time of email. Like I normally when I am overhearing something in a coffee shop, I can keep to myself. But I did physically turn my head to look at this person when they. When they said this.

[B]

Need to know. You need to know what they were.

[A]

Like, who is this thought coming out anyway? If you want to. If you listen, if you want to.

[B]

Live in the time of email.

[A]

Communicate with us like it's the time of email.

[B]

Overdue podmail.com.

[A]

Email jinx.

[B]

You can find us on social media scrolling in the future at overdue Pod. Nick Lauren just composed our theme music. Andrew. Folks want to know More about the show. Where do they go?

[A]

Overdue Podcast.com's the Internet website up there. We have the schedule for February. We have the past episodes that we've done. We have a little web player that you can use to play the episode or like download an mp3 if you'd have things that you want to do with that.

[B]

Load it onto your Zune.

[A]

Yeah, load it on your Zune, man. That's why they call them zoom casts.

[B]

That's why.

[A]

It's because people are always putting them on their Zunes. We also have a Link to Patreon. Patreon.com overduepod you can kick us a little bit of money to support the show. It does literally make it possible for the show to happen by paying for childcare and other life things for us, but then also business expenses like books and microphones and guitars. I've never expensed a guitar, but I think at this point I could justify at least like a partial some strings.

[B]

A pick strings is interesting. A tuner.

[A]

Talk about this at our next business meeting. A tuner. Yeah. That mean that feels a little pointed, but sure.

[B]

No, I just mean because you brought the trash guitar, you want to have it to hand. The other guitar is usually fine. It's just gone now.

[A]

It's usually fine. It's just downstairs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm using it to play along notes with Henry, trying to keep him interested in the piano.

[B]

Oh yeah, sure.

[A]

I have not found anything that he thinks is as interesting as the fact that like A sharp and B flat are the same note. It's pretty cool, but we'll get there. Patreon.com overdue pod get access to our Discord community where we have pulled several questions for this week's episode and we try to do that that with some regularity. You can also get Dusty Bookshelves, our monthly newsletter. You can get bonus episodes, long read episodes, including the one on the manga Akira that we just started called Tokyo Drifters and ad free episodes and a couple other things. Patreon.com overdue pod yep.

[B]

What are we talking about next week, Andrew?

[A]

What are we talking about next week? Week?

[B]

Hockey, baby.

[A]

Hockey, baby. Heated rivalry.

[B]

Happy Valentine's Day, everyone.

[A]

I can't wait to read about these books that only incidentally involve hockey, as far as I understand it.

[B]

Yeah, well, we're going to be skating around that one.

[A]

Yeah, Sticks. Okay, everybody, until we talk to you next week, please try to be happy.

[B]

Sam podcast.