Stop! Homer Time: The Iliad - Episodes 09 & 10 (Books 20-24)

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Overdue" Podcast Episode: "Stop! Homer Time: The Iliad - Episodes 09 & 10 (Books 20-24)"

Podcast Information

• Title: Overdue
• Host/Author: Headgum
• Episode: Stop! Homer Time: The Iliad - Episodes 09 & 10 (Books 20-24)
• Release Date: November 30, 2024
• Description: Overdue is a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. Hosts Andrew, Craig, and Emily delve into various literary works, exploring their themes, narratives, and cultural significance.

In this episode, titled "Stop! Homer Time," the hosts Andrew and Craig, along with Emily, provide an in-depth analysis of Books 20-24 of Homer's The Iliad, utilizing Emily Wilson's translation. The discussion navigates through intense battle scenes, divine interventions, personal tragedies, and the eventual mourning rituals that conclude the epic.

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1. Book 20: The Warriors Return

Overview: Book 20 marks Achilles’ fierce return to the battlefield, driven by the death of his close friend, Patroclus. His rampage is so formidable that Zeus fears Achilles may annihilate the Trojans entirely.

Key Discussions:

• Divine Conflicts: Zeus permits the gods to take sides, leading to celestial battles that mirror the mortal conflicts. Emily humorously notes the pettiness of the gods, saying, “Do you think Oscar made fun of you? Because Apollo is making fun of you.” (07:15)

• Hades' Brief Appearance: A rare moment where Hades pleads with Poseidon not to reveal his grim realm, adding depth to the divine narrative.

• Achilles' Rampage: The discussion highlights Achilles' relentless drive and the potential devastation he could unleash, emphasizing his near- invincible prowess.

Notable Quotes:

Emily: “Hades is just, like, banging on the ceiling of Tartarus with a broom or whatever, telling everybody to shut up.” (07:15)

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2. Book 21: The River Scamander

Overview: Book 21 delves into Achilles' conflict with the river god Scamander (also known as Xanthus). As Achilles slaughters numerous Trojans, the river becomes clogged with corpses, enraging Scamander to intervene.

Key Discussions:

• Achilles vs. Nature: The river god personifies nature's retaliation against Achilles' excessive violence. Emily describes Achilles as “a force of nature,” while Andrew remarks on the surreal interaction: “Achilles is real, as you said, kind of real concerned and impeded.” (25:37)

• Divine Intervention: Hera advises Hephaestus to fend off Scamander, leading to Achilles banishing the river’s wrath and showcasing his dominance over both mortals and nature.

Notable Quotes:

Andrew: “I have a whole note about Achilles being too good and might actually destroy Troy.” (07:51)

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3. Book 22: A Race to Death

Overview: In Book 22, the long-anticipated duel between Achilles and Hector culminates. This encounter is central to the poem, blending themes of fate, honor, and grief.

Key Discussions:

• Climactic Confrontation: The fight is swift and intense, with the hosts noting its anticlimactic brevity compared to the prolonged build-up: “It's amazing to me that it like manages to evoke the sadness it does when we've spent all this time with these characters.” (41:14)

• Themes of Fate and Wrath: Emily and Andrew discuss how Achilles' actions are driven by predestined fate and excessive grief over Patroclus' death, making his wrath understandable yet tragic.

Notable Quotes:

Emily: “All of us can keep generating insults. So many that a massive merchant ship, a trireme with a hundred rowing benches, could never bear the weight of all our words.” (09:51)

Andrew: “This culminates with Achilles killing one of Hector's brothers... which is a thing that sort of turns the tide for Hector and goads him into joining the battle.” (13:19)

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4. Book 23: Funeral Games

Overview: Book 23 focuses on Achilles organizing the funeral games to honor Patroclus. These games serve as a semblance of peace amidst the ongoing war, illustrating Greek cultural practices regarding honor and mourning.

Key Discussions:

• Memorial Games: The hosts explore the variety of competitions, ranging from chariot races to wrestling and boxing, symbolizing both respect for Patroclus and the valor of the warriors. Emily notes, “The games show that victory is the result of not only talent and training, but also luck and divine favor.” (59:54)

• Character Dynamics: Craig humorously likens the competitions to modern-day sportsmanship, highlighting characters like Diomedes and Antilochus and their competitive spirits.

Notable Quotes:

Andrew: “He makes the horses go, with no reluctance, they flew. A cloud of dust rose up around Hector as he was dragged along.” (24:21)

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5. Book 24: Time to Mourn

Overview: Book 24 concludes the episode's coverage with the mourning rituals for Hector, emphasizing themes of reconciliation and the devastating cost of war.

Key Discussions:

• Priam’s Plea: King Priam, Hector’s father, bravely approaches Achilles to ransom his son's body. This act of humility and courage leads to a moment of shared grief between the two men.

• Resolution: The gods intervene to facilitate the exchange, highlighting the interplay between divine will and human actions. The hosts discuss how this moment underscores the poem's exploration of mercy and the futility of endless conflict.

Notable Quotes:

Andrew: “Priam is like a really interesting character in that whole sequence because when Hermes first shows up... he just kind of slipped in there.” (86:14)

Emily: “And mercy ultimately prevails as Priam and Achilles weep together over Hector's body.” (Unstamped)

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6. Insights and Interpretations

Throughout the episode, the hosts offer nuanced interpretations of the text, focusing on:

• Divine Influence: The gods' meddling in mortal affairs as a reflection of human unpredictability and the chaos of war.

• Achilles’ Complexity: Balancing his near-divine prowess with deeply human emotions like grief, rage, and eventual reconciliation.

• Cultural Practices: Insights into Greek funeral rites, honor, and the societal mechanisms that attempt to restore balance post-conflict.

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7. Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Andrew: “Hades is the below apartment neighbor from a New York sitcom, like, yelling, keep it down.” (07:15)

• Emily: “All of us can keep generating insults. So many that a massive merchant ship, a trireme with a hundred rowing benches, could never bear the weight of all our words.” (09:51)

• Andrew: “This culminates with Achilles killing one of Hector's brothers... which is a thing that sort of turns the tide for Hector and goads him into joining the battle.” (13:19)

• Craig: “He is the most often snapping somebody up and taking them somewhere else.” (30:43)

• Emily: “After, all the bellowing bulls, Achilles tilts into poop.” (74:08)

• Andrew: “There are a million ways to say a guy died.” (94:17)

These quotes capture the hosts' blend of humor, analysis, and engagement with the epic's text.

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8. Conclusion

In "Stop! Homer Time: The Iliad - Episodes 09 & 10 (Books 20-24)," the hosts Andrew, Craig, and Emily provide an in-depth and engaging analysis of the latter books of The Iliad. Through their discussion, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the epic's complex characters, divine interventions, and the poignant themes of war and mourning. The inclusion of humor and critical insights makes the summary accessible and insightful for both seasoned readers and newcomers to Homer's masterpiece.

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Timeless Takeaways:

• Humanizing the Divine: The gods in The Iliad exhibit human-like flaws and conflicts, mirroring the chaos and unpredictability of war.

• Achilles’ Tragic Complexity: Achilles embodies both superhuman prowess and profound personal flaws, driven by grief and wrath.

• The Futility of Endless Conflict: The episode underscores the tragic inevitability of war's devastation, highlighting moments of humanity amidst the brutality.

Join the Conversation: For those intrigued by this deep dive into The Iliad, consider listening to the full episode on the Overdue Podcast. Engage with Andrew, Craig, and Emily as they continue to unravel classic literature, one overdue book at a time.

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Note: Timestamp references are indicative and correspond to the transcript sections discussed.

Transcript

[Craig]

This is a Headgum podcast.

[Andrew]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Stop Homer Time, a podcast within a podcast. The overdue podcast brought to you by.

[Emily]

Me, Craig, and also me, Andrew.

[Andrew]

A podcast about the books you've been meaning to read.

[Emily]

I like. Okay. You've promoted yourself to like having a higher billing than me, which I guess is like you do the intro all the time, so it's your prerogative, I suppose, to decide how to.

[Andrew]

I always say my name is Craig and you say my name is Andrew. I was just going in order.

[Emily]

Yeah, no, you just made it sound like it's brought to you by Craig and it's like, oh, Craig is now the sponsor of this, including being the co host.

[Andrew]

Here's what I made it sound like I got lost.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Emily]

All right.

[Andrew]

I got lost on the plains outside of Troy. I got lost in the river Scamander.

[Craig]

In the river, a.k.a.

[Andrew]

Xanthus, a.k.a.

[Emily]

But he does, he does evolve into Scameleon and Scar. So it's worth it to get a.

[Andrew]

Scamander, I think, and to find my way back. So I did not mean to slight you in the crediting, but here's where we are doing battle on the fields back here in Homer's Iliad. Translated by Emily Wilson Andrew feels dangerous.

[Emily]

To have the action keep rising this close to the end.

[Andrew]

It really does.

[Emily]

Like rising and rising and rising. Just like, when's it gonna fall? You know, I've.

[Andrew]

I've baked a few loaves of bread and I would be scared if it was still rising this late into the process.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like, how much yeast did I put in this? Did I get. Did I accidentally use my monster blood instead of my yeast? I don't know.

[Andrew]

Last time on this very podcast, some stuff happened. Do we remember mostly?

[Emily]

I mean, so they fought over Patroclus, the body of Patroclus.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And they did that for a very long, quite, very, really quite a long time.

[Andrew]

Correct.

[Craig]

They did that.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Emily]

And then Patroclus death activates Achilles.

[Andrew]

Yes. They finally told Achilles that Patroclus died.

[Emily]

They have a messy passive aggressive makeup among the Greeks. Achilles keeps saying, I want to go kill guys now. I'm mad now.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And all the Greeks are like, why don't we eat and like exchange gifts first and then we. And then we can go kill guys.

[Andrew]

And Hephaestus gives him cool armor.

[Emily]

I think that's Hephaestus gives him cool armor. Cool very detailed shield that just like immediately gets poked by a spear later. But I mean, because it's a shield, it's not decorative, it's utilitarian.

[Andrew]

But it's a five layer dip is what this shield is. Tell you about it.

[Craig]

Yes, yes.

[Emily]

I'm not. Well, I'm not here to tell Hephaestus.

[Craig]

How to do his job.

[Andrew]

No, not indeed. Put a very soft metal in the middle, little nugget center in your shield. Nugget center.

[Emily]

I don't. Do people know this gold was really soft back in the olden times?

[Andrew]

Emily Wilson has a whole note about how it's not about how the gold is soft, it's about how it's rare and thus nearer to the gods, which makes it magical. She's on top of it.

[Emily]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I just. Yeah. I guess if you won't put play DOH in the middle of your shield.

[Andrew]

That'S on you, I suppose to the shield's gooey center. It's delicious.

[Emily]

It's a gusher in there.

[Andrew]

So this episode we are talking about books 20 to 22. Another three for, and then we'll close.

[Emily]

Out three for madness.

[Andrew]

Next episode with books 23 and 24. We have plans for a capper episode that we'll share as well. And we are already ruminating on what our next long reproject might be. But we can't do that until we sail home from Troy or sack the city and, you know, take it.

[Emily]

You keep telling me to stop Homer time, and I will. I personally will never stop.

[Craig]

You can never stop.

[Andrew]

You cannot. Andrew, tell me about book 20. It is called the Fighters Return. The Warriors.

[Craig]

The Warriors Return.

[Andrew]

Warriors Return.

[Craig]

The warriors return.

[Emily]

Book 20 is the one where Achilles actually gets back on the old battlefield.

[Craig]

Achilles.

[Emily]

So Achilles.

[Craig]

All right, book opens.

[Emily]

Achilles is ready to go, but he's still not quite going yet because Zeus has to call an assembly on Olympus. Zeus is so worried about Achilles completely obliterating the Trojans, like beyond what even Zeus wants, that he is letting the gods go down and help whatever side they prefer to help.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Emily]

So a lot of things that are happening in this book are the gods actually kind of lining up against each other and having their own little battle again, in addition to the battle. Guys, that's happening.

[Andrew]

Yes. It is not often the version of Troy that I encounter outside of this poem. It is not like gods all over. Like, this book is not the one that makes it across into other, like, references to the poem.

[Emily]

I think even though it's a thing where, like, the thing finally happened, I know Achilles is finally back. Back out there after all spending this whole time.

[Andrew]

I mean. I mean, the God stuff is really, like.

[Emily]

Like, yeah, I know. The God stuff is not. Yeah, we talked about that early on, I think, where it was all the stuff about, like, Hera, like, doing a. Like, an Archie Bunker kind of thing with Zeus and, like, well, then she, like, voting him until he falls asleep and. Yeah, all sorts of stuff. So the gods are lined up opposing each other in battle. I mean, on the. On the Greek side, you've got Poseidon, Athena, a number of others.

[Andrew]

Hera.

[Emily]

Yeah, Hera. On the Trojan side, the most notable ones are probably Apollo, Aphrodite, Aries. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Right. Because Artemis is, like, with Apollo.

[Emily]

I mean, Artemis is there for, like, a second. We could talk about Artemis when you want to, but Artemis does not spend a lot of time actually being on the battlefield because Sahara just, like, does a. Why are you hitting yourself to her until she runs away and isn't there anymore? Did you catch in book 20 that we get an extremely brief, like, depiction of Hades? Hades is mentioned a lot as being, like, a guy or a place that people are sent to. But here we get Hades as a person appearing very briefly beneath the ground. The king of spirits. Hades was terrified, jumped from his throne and shouted to Poseidon, God of earthquakes, not to allow the ground above to break and show to mortals and the deathless gods his horrifying kingdom of decay, which is disgusting even to the gods. Please don't fight so hard that you show everybody my empire of dirt.

[Craig]

Please.

[Emily]

I mean, it is me. I'm Hades.

[Andrew]

I love that. Hades is the below apartment neighbor from a New York sitcom, like, yelling, keep it down.

[Emily]

Hades is just, like, banging on the ceiling of Tartarus with a broom or whatever, telling everybody to shut up.

[Andrew]

I. There is a note in. In the. Wilson. In the back of this chapter, the two things that we've kind of referenced already is Zeus saying, hey, gods, have at it, because Achilles could break his allotment. Is like the. The wording that the poem uses is that, like, he's too good.

[Emily]

He's too good.

[Andrew]

He might actually destroy. Destroy Troy. And he's not supposed to, which is this, like, weird. He's got his own agency thing.

[Emily]

Yeah. Which we've been. We've been dancing on that line for a bit.

[Andrew]

And then it's a big deal that Hades is upset here. Poseidon's just like doing earthquake moves. That's his thing.

[Emily]

Like he's got the oceans, but he's also got earthquakes.

[Andrew]

And Hades is so upset. Like, yes, he's. It's kind of silly the way I find it kind of silly the way it is horrifying.

[Emily]

It does sound like. It's just like Hades with like. Like he's asleep with like the. A face mask and like the cucumbers over his eyes and his hair is in rollers. And then he has to get up out of bed to like yell at everybody to keep it down.

[Andrew]

One of those like hyper detailed Ren and Stimpy, like close ups where you hear the scream. Right. But if his realm is opened up, this is like just. This is as bad as when the Titans were fight. Like the whole. It means the whole natural order is messed up.

[Craig]

Right.

[Andrew]

If we've gone that far.

[Emily]

But it makes it sound like he just doesn't want people to see how he switches different.

[Andrew]

I love the dead people too much. Don't look. All right, what happens next?

[Emily]

So Apollo tries to make Aeneas face Achilles. You remember Aeneas from aid.

[Andrew]

Oh, that's. Yes. He was in this poem earlier too.

[Emily]

He's in this poem also. Yeah. And this is. This is really the section of the poem where you're setting up the Aeneid.

[Andrew]

Yes, you are.

[Emily]

If you're the kind of person who likes the Aeneid. Aeneas initially protests, but he's talked into it.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Hera says Achilles needs to be kept safe for now so he can meet his. His horrible destiny later. Achilles yells at Aeneas is like. He's basically like, why are you coming out here? Like, prime isn't going to like, reward you for coming at me. Like, why?

[Craig]

What is.

[Emily]

What is your deal?

[Andrew]

Yeah, you should.

[Emily]

You should. If you don't want to be killed, you should.

[Craig]

You should leave.

[Emily]

Aeneas basically says, listen, I can. I can say stuff too. I can. I can say bad words also.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Let me.

[Emily]

Let me tell you all about my whole family tree and why I'm worthy of like, facing you in. Aeneas then says, you know, we could keep. We could keep talking or we could fight.

[Andrew]

I love it. I love that. I love that. That is thousands of years old that. That trope has been around the whole time.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like, let's take this outside. Even though this whole thing is outside.

[Craig]

The walls of Troy, I guess.

[Andrew]

Yeah, sure.

[Emily]

Poseidon steps in to save Aeneas because. Well, wait, did I.

[Andrew]

He does. No, he saves Aeneas.

[Craig]

Okay. Yes.

[Emily]

I just. I wrote Achilles in my notes. But that doesn't make any sense. Poseidon steps in to save Aeneas because one day he will rule the Trojans. This is kind of the. The prequel breadcrumb that Virgil picks up on to do the Aeneid out of is like the Romans as this. As these, like, descendants of the. Of the Trojans who eventually end up, like, winning the battle in the end.

[Andrew]

Yes, well, and there's. There was a little bit in that Aeneas section I liked. I just made a note. Aeneas quote, picks up a rock. One that would have been too heavy for two Men of Modern Times.

[Emily]

I did see that. That brief burn on Men of Modern Times.

[Andrew]

He brandished it with ease. Alone. You weaklings listening to my tale. He was so strong.

[Emily]

I also like when he says. I mean, I wrote in my notes, we could keep talking or we could fight. What he actually says is, both of us can keep generating insults. So many that a massive merchant ship, a trireme with a hundred rowing benches, could never bear the weight of all our words.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I do. Like when. Whenever the gods do, like, magic in the poem, when they're just like, magic mist attack. Like, they. It's just there's a couple moves they have. It usually involves mist or looking like.

[Emily]

A dude or pulling mist, disguise self, or, like, pulling a guy back from battle.

[Andrew]

Yes, lots of pulling. But it's just fun to think about. Like, they don't have a magic system. Right. They're the gods. They can do whatever they want.

[Emily]

Yeah. Hera says to Poseidon when he's contemplating all this, like, save him or don't. But I'm not helping any Trojan, and I'm not sorry. I remember that Poseidon yells at Aeneas for being stupid in the face and facing Achilles, which a lot of people do. Like, anytime anybody is in any danger of facing Achilles, everybody's like, you idiot. Why do you think that you can fight this guy?

[Andrew]

When he was running and, like, scooping him up, I had an image of chasing my son and just going, not safe. Not safe. Come here. Like, you can't climb on that. You don't understand.

[Emily]

And Simon climbed up on the couch three times. And each of the three times, Craig grabbed for Simon and his hands grabbed only the. The mist.

[Andrew]

It's true. It gets so fast.

[Emily]

Achilles rallies the Greeks. Hector rallies the Trojans.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Apollo comes down, tells him to keep his distance. Then I wrote in my notes, achilles is a killing, guys.

[Andrew]

Whoa. Cannot believe Wilson didn't use that in the translation.

[Emily]

I know, right? I mean, she did a lot of like creative sort of editorializing and changing of things. And she never says at any point in this book, Achilles is a killing guy.

[Andrew]

Huh?

[Emily]

This, this culminates in Achilles killing one of Hector's many brothers. This guy has like 38 brothers.

[Andrew]

He kills a lot of brothers in this. Polydorus is the one you're talking about.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

This culminates with Achilles killing one of Hector's brothers. One of Hector's like 57 brothers.

[Andrew]

Yes. Binders full of brothers.

[Emily]

And it's like there's another thing in a later book that we read for this ep, I think, where I forget who exactly it is. It's another son of Priam who is like in the river with Achilles that we'll talk about.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah.

[Emily]

And he's like begging Achilles not to kill him because, like, I didn't share a womb with Hector. Like, I am Hector's brother, but, like, I'm not. We're not that. We're not that close. Like, you don't need to be that mad at me. Anyway, prime gets around and one of the guys Priam sired, Polydorus, gets killed. This is the thing that sort of turns the tide for Hector and goads him into joining the battle. But Apollo pulls Hector back from Achilles spear repeatedly. And we are left with both of our, both of the boys still alive for now. But we're kind of circling circle in the end game here. Yes.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. It's a good. You know, he gets a lot of kills in. Yeah.

[Craig]

I mean, we're gonna.

[Emily]

Especially in the, in book 21, we'll talk about how many guys.

[Andrew]

So many guys.

[Emily]

Achilles with his spear swept everywhere, pursuing those he killed. The ground flowed black with blood. Like this one guy just like.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Changing the topography of the earth because he's making there be so much. That's what liquid and guys, that's what.

[Andrew]

Book 21 is all about. It rules. The, the things I noted along the way in this that we haven't mentioned yet. We talked about the bean dip shield. It's a multi layer shield. That's why Achilles is so safe. And, and Wilson reminds us that like most shields have like one layer of metal with multiple layers of animal hide. It's unique that Achilles's shield is all metal. I think it's got two layers of.

[Emily]

Bronze, two layers of tin, and then, and then a golden, cool, golden layer.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And that's why, you know, Aeneas can't land any, any, you know, hits on him. There was a great line somewhere before he starts killing all the dudes, says Achilles with his spirit, dressed in daring, just, you know, she's. She's good at this translation stuff. Just saying. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, he killed. When he kills a fiddie and he basically like, like, stands. He just kind of stands over him and does like the crouching thing from Halo. Like, he just kind of teabags him and just like, shouts at him.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

He's just insult. I'm just. I was just like, Achilles has not fought all book.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And then he shows finally getting him.

[Andrew]

And is killing guys and then like, insulting their dead bodies. Like, in a way that feels cruder.

[Emily]

We will and we will. We will talk about this. I think especially in book 22, but I think like, the. His, like, disrespect for the guys he's killing. I mean, it's not like he's a setup.

[Andrew]

He's.

[Emily]

He's fated to die anyway. Like, we know he's gonna die, but, like, if ever he were going to not die, he would need to not be the kind of person who would do this, take it this far.

[Andrew]

Well, and I also.

[Emily]

He's a man. He's a man of extremes. His Achilles.

[Andrew]

I also wonder, and I don't know, I don't have text to point to off the top of my head. I wonder if there's also. His knowledge that he is fated to die is like, well, why would I bother be. Why would I do any of these ceremonies? I'm gonna kill you and I'm gonna do whatever I want to your dead body. Yeah, we do. Ceremony means nothing to me.

[Emily]

We do know that he knows that his. That his fate is bad. Like, everybody knows. He. I mean, he doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about it. I wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about it either.

[Andrew]

Try not to. Anyway.

[Emily]

Yes, we know that. We know that he knows that it's coming. It's never mentioned, as in. In text, that this is why he is so reckless.

[Andrew]

No, no, but it could be.

[Emily]

I mean, I don't know how much, like, with a. With a work this old.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I'm not sure how subtle. Like, my impulse is just to take everything completely at face value because there's nothing the book isn't. Isn't telling us. And it doesn't seem like it's trying to. To work in, like, subtlety and like, symbolism and whatever. But, you know, it's, it's. It as modern readers, it's interesting to bring that perspective to the to the work. And there could be some narrative convention or. Or force that people at the time would have. Would have. Yeah, been thinking of that. That would have, like, put them in a similar mind.

[Andrew]

We've mentioned.

[Emily]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Andrew]

We mentioned a few of those. I have one of those at the end of book 21. It's not as like, super deep, but it is a, like, sort of meta textual thing that Wilson pointed out.

[Emily]

Do you think there are people who, like, who yelled at the. At the bard or whatever, who is the troubadour who would be performing this poem? Like, Achilles, don't go in there, gonna die.

[Andrew]

It's that for me, I want that guy to be there. And I also want, like, the Leonardo, the Leo DiCaprio, like, pointing meme to happen when. When people, like, get references.

[Emily]

Yeah, right.

[Andrew]

It's like, oh, he's. Look, he's. He almost got hit in the heel.

[Emily]

Look, I. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I want. I want. I want that because this somebody. I want somebody yelling at the poet. I want, like. I don't know, I want cheering at all the appropriate places where everybody knows what's gonna happen.

[Andrew]

Yeah. For like a. Like a. An anniversary screening of a great film is what you want, right?

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Like when I went and saw Jurassic Park a year or two ago with the Philly orchestra, and it was like hundreds of people there, and when just when Jeff Goldblum appeared, there was applause. Like, that's what you want, right?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

The last thing I'll note from Wilson's notes that I haven't mentioned is there's, like a bit at the end when Achilles is just killing so many guys, knocking people off their chariots, and then all of a sudden his horses are stomping around and he's on his chariot driving them. And she points out that, like, usually the poem is pretty good about the logic of people in space and actually tracking all of the things that they do.

[Emily]

And even when they're being yanked around by a God, like, you're still being.

[Andrew]

Told all about that. And so it's notable whenever it might skip even something like that, we're like, he wasn't driving his horse. Okay. I guess. Guess it. It's just like in the way that, like, older movies did not used to show you a lot more like, establishing shots, like, from, like, 80 years ago, you. You'd follow a guy down the street to, like, see that he went in a house because, like, I guess they didn't think audiences would get it. But now you're just like, guy in car, guy in house. Oh, that's the. That's the house he went into.

[Craig]

Right.

[Andrew]

All right, that's book 20. Book 21 is called the River.

[Craig]

The river.

[Andrew]

This is a great book. This book slaps it honks it rules. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Achilles is about to make this fight a wet one. He wades into the river.

[Craig]

Say it like that.

[Andrew]

It is. It's the river. Scamander also referred to as Xanthus, which is not confusing at all to a layperson here in the 21st century.

[Emily]

Well, isn't like, one of them is like the human name, and one of them is the God name.

[Andrew]

I think Xanthus is the. Is the personified God of the river, and Scamander is the river, the geographical entity. But they're kind of.

[Emily]

These people also think the ocean is a river. So I don't know that they really have a detailed vocabulary about bodies of water.

[Andrew]

And so Achilles is wading into the water to slaughter Trojans. And you already referenced him, Andrew. He encounters a guy named Lyka. I believe he is a son of Priam.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

One of prime sons that previously Achilles had captured him like broken bread with him, hung out with him a little bit and said, get on your merry way, little doggy. Like, go on out there into the world, have fun.

[Emily]

Or Patroclus got killed.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And now he's gonna kill. And the kind's like, hey, could you not. Like, you don't have to. And as you said earlier, Andrew, he didn't share the same womb as Hector.

[Emily]

Yeah. Consider this. Do not kill me, because I did not share a womb with Hector, who killed your friend, who was both strong and kind.

[Andrew]

Yep. Mm.

[Emily]

Your friend was great. Hector is, like, kind of my brother, but not really. And please don't kill me, Achilles. Achilles says, before Patroclus died and met his fate, I was a little more inclined to spare the Trojans. I took many of them prisoner and sold them off alive as slaves. But now no Trojan will escape from death whenever a God casts one of you into my hands in front of Troy. Especially sons of Priam. So die, my friend. Why are you so upset? Patroclus has already died as well, and he was far superior to you. Do you not see how tall and fine I am? My father was a noble, handsome man. My mother was a goddess. Even so, death and strong destiny will come for me. And there will be some dawn or noon or evening when somebody will take away my life in battle with a Spear's throw or an arrow. So, like, both. I'm so great. I'm gonna kill you. I'm fated to die also.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I don't care, man. Yolo. You're dead.

[Emily]

Yeah. I definitely get, like, when the book places things that close together, like, where Achilles himself is, like, kind of mentioning it all in the same breath, I do get like, I'm gonna die anyway. It doesn't matter what I do.

[Andrew]

Like, yeah, well, it's all wrapped. Like, if you look at him as, like, a human, not as, like a. A character in the same mythic poem, right? Like, he's still. He just found out his best friend died and was murdered and all.

[Emily]

His longtime roommate has been killed. Longtime platonic roommate. Patroclus is dead.

[Andrew]

And, you know, and he's still upset about the whole brise thing. And then, you know, all the people who murdered his boy and fought over his corpse are out there. So he's not, you know, but also his mom is like, oh, boy, here's some cool armor, but you are gonna die. And he's just like, why not just be a jerk?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Slash left and right. Yeah. Make this river really mad. The river is so upset.

[Emily]

The river gets big mad because he kills so many guys. Achilles kills so many guys that he, like, chokes the river with the bodies of the dead.

[Andrew]

As at this, the river grew yet more enraged, wondering in his heart how best to make Achilles stop his deadly work. And the river, like, kind of just pops out. A dude estrope is just kind of like, spits out a guy for Achilles to fight. And he's like, yeah, my great grandfather was a river. I'm going to fight you for messing up this river. And Achilles, like, all right, let's fight, river boy. Like, let's go. I've got Zeus on my side. I'm son of a sea nymph. Like, let's come on now. He does land a hit on Achilles, and Astropeus tries to get his spear back, but Achilles gets him and just gets him in the belly. Cuts his belly open. Yeah.

[Emily]

I think Achilles is momentarily, like, especially when the river is just, like, straight up dunking him in torrents of water. There are a couple of moments where Achilles seems genuinely not befuddled. What's the word I want? He seems concerned. Well, concerned. He seems like the river is actually getting in his way and kind of. Kind of hurting him a little bit, but, yes. Impeded. He's being impeded.

[Andrew]

He is being impeded. I think it's after Astroparus bites. It is when the river is like, my lovely streams have been clogged up with corpses. I cannot, cannot freely pour my waters down into the shining sea because the bodies choke me. Yet you keep killing even more. Annihilating everyone. Come on, leader of troops, stop now. This is too much. I do like this as a chapter where nature itself is like, Achilles. You've gone too far.

[Emily]

Well, because Achilles is like a. He is a force of nature.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Is in these. These lines, these chapters.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And so the river is like, you know, the river runs through Achilles a little bit here and tries to take him out. Achilles is real, as you said, kind of real concerned and impeded. He doesn't want to die kind of a humiliating death, swallowed by a river. And Hera steps in and is like, hey, my son, Hephaestus. Old Twisty foot, she calls him.

[Emily]

Man, everybody making fun of Hephaestus.

[Andrew]

Why don't you cast fireball on this river and, like, burn it out? So Achilles is okay. And he does it. And the river is like, okay, if essence. You win. I'll back off. Wilson notes that scholars dating back to antiquity are not sure if we are to interpret Twisty Foot as an insult or a, you know, lovable nickname. And I think the ones who think it's a lovable nickname are wrong.

[Emily]

I. Like, she's asking him to do something, but also she is positioned as his, like, better. So I don't know. I feel like it's not.

[Andrew]

There's a power dynamic there.

[Emily]

It's.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

It's not necessarily a term of endearment.

[Andrew]

No, it's not.

[Craig]

I don't know.

[Emily]

It's. But. But it's like somebody like a boss of yours or something. Have you ever had a boss who called you a nickname that he thought was a term of endearment that actually was an insult? Because I feel like it's something like that.

[Andrew]

I struggle to summon what the nickname might have been, but I have ever received that energy, and it's not fun. Don't love it.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Following this, there's a. There's just a scene here where the gods fight each other.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Some of them actually fight each other. Some of them go. Anything stand out to you here, Andrew? In the. In the Kaiju fight or the slap.

[Emily]

Fighting, Is this the bit where I think Athena smacks Aries and it turns out that he's, like, 7,000.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Long or whatever? That's the part that I liked.

[Andrew]

He's 7,000ft tall. She. I didn't.

[Emily]

Yeah, she Hurled it at impetuous Ares, striking his neck, and he collapsed. The fallen God extended over 7,000ft. Yeah, that's big. Like, it's. And usually you get an idea of the gods as at least, like, physically as being kind of human scale because they appear in human form all the time.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Emily]

But this is. Achilles is like a giant, or not Aries, but Ares as a giant, like, statue falling down amongst the.

[Andrew]

His wild battlefield. I don't really understand the note that Wilson had about it, because she references what the Greek word was. It might have meant some other measurements of feet. I don't know, guys. Big is what she's saying. He's a big guy.

[Emily]

He's a big boy.

[Andrew]

Athena punches Aphrodite in the face.

[Emily]

Aphrodite really takes it on the chin a couple of times.

[Andrew]

In this book, Poseidon and Apollo might fight, but then they, like, have a conversation about how the Trojans were supposed to pay them for the walls. And, like, aren't we just waiting for these walls to fall? Anyway? Hera and Artemis, as you said, Artemis gets boxed on the ears with her weapons and then runs away crying.

[Emily]

Yeah, it doesn't. Doesn't last very long. Hermes time in the battlefield.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Hermes versus Lito. No fight.

[Emily]

Because first Artemis comes and, like, makes fun of Apollo. Like, why do you even have it? Why do you even have a bow if you're not going to use it? And then her smacks are around a little bit, and then she leaves.

[Andrew]

There is a she, I noticed a few times. Apollo, the God of distance or the God of distances.

[Emily]

Yeah, I think that's. That's happened a few times before.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I hadn't really clocked what it kind of might mean, both literally and figuratively. In one of the footnotes, Wilson refers to him as the archer God who always keeps his distance. It's like, okay, I was able to suss out the, like, oh, yes, he's got the arrows. That's gonna be important when. When Paris shoots Achilles in the heel or whatever later in that other poem we won't talk about. But then, like, he's also. He kind of gets flack from some of them sometimes for, like, being at a remove, being a coward.

[Craig]

He also.

[Emily]

I mean, he is one of the guys who is the most often snapping somebody up and taking them somewhere else. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't. It's not only him. Like, I think Aphrodite is the one who does it to Paris. Paris earlier in the poem. Yeah. But Apollo, especially in this Is just like, let me scoop you up, Hector, and get you away from this situation.

[Andrew]

Loves to scoop. And then closing out the book, old Priam stood upon the God built wall and looked at the enormity.

[Emily]

Achilles, boy, Priam has just not been. He's not. Not an active leader.

[Andrew]

No. Pretty bad one. Pretty bad king. He rings the town hall bell and all the Trojans are forced to go back behind the walls of Troy by like.

[Emily]

Hector doesn't. Right.

[Andrew]

He does not. And Apollo, which we talk about in the next book. Apollo tries to distract Achilles first with a guy named Anganor, I think his name is, or Aganor. And then he's, you know, whisks that guy away and then pretends to be that guy and tries to distract Achilles while all the Trojans are hiding.

[Emily]

The.

[Andrew]

There is a. There's a. This is the little thing that happens towards the end of this book. Aganor, I think, strikes Achilles on the shin with either a rock or, I don't know, a spear or something. And the poem says on the sheen on the shin just below the knee. Which Wilson points out might have elicited responses from the crowd being like, yeah, his heel.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Anything else from this book that we didn't hit, Andrew?

[Emily]

No, I think we got all of it. Like the big late book thing that I had highlighted and wanted to talk about was the Hera and Artemis sequence. But we got there. Yeah. Then we've got. Yeah. Agenor Antinor's noble, valiant son who. Who is like briefly standing between Achilles and. And the city of Troy. Like, it's just you. They keep throwing up these little like tissue paper barriers to keep Achilles from doing what he is clearly going to do. And it's, you know, you can only plausibly delay the inevitable for so long.

[Andrew]

Yep. Yeah. And it's. It's kind of neat to just see a God fight. Like, just to see them in action.

[Emily]

Even if they're not gonna be 7,000ft tall.

[Andrew]

Yeah. They're not all using all their powers and stuff. It's not like full like end game or anything like that, but, you know, it's interesting. All right, book 22, it is called. What is it called?

[Emily]

A race to death.

[Andrew]

Oh boy. It is a race to death, isn't it? Achilles and Apollo start, John a little bit while the Trojans rush inside the walls. Of course, as you mentioned, Andrew, Hector is outside the gates. His parents, Priam and Hecuba are up on top of the gates yelling, please come inside.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Please don't stay out there.

[Craig]

But Hector Does.

[Emily]

I mean, he's. He's had a lot of people tell him a lot of times like, you don't have to do this.

[Andrew]

You do not have to. Hector, please come inside. I'm an old man. If you die, all my sons are dying. You're gonna die. I'm gonna die.

[Emily]

Only have like 92 sons left.

[Andrew]

If you die, Hector, I'm gonna die a sad old man death, and then the dogs are gonna eat my genitals. He does say that they're gonna eat his private parts.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I mean, that's a thing to worry about, I guess.

[Andrew]

Gonna be pretty humiliating the way that he goes. He's very upset about it. I like how. I like the little turn of phrase here in that Hecuba nor. Hecuba nor Priam quote, persuade the heart of Hector to return, to come back. They race around the city three times. And then Zeus starts having feelings about it.

[Emily]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's.

[Andrew]

He's kind of. I don't know what that's. He's like. He doesn't really like how this is going.

[Emily]

He doesn't like how this is going. But then, I mean, Zeus. The moment of Hector's doom is also, like, directly involves Zeus that when they wait, when they reach the springs, the fourth time round, then Zeus the father held his golden scales up high and in them set two deadly weights. Two dooms of death that stretches suffering, one for Achilles, one for horse. Lord Hector, the God raised up the middle of the scales and down the destined day of Hector sank and went to Hades and Apollo left him. And this is when Athena comes up to Achilles and talks to him briefly and then she goes and talks to Hector, which. I'll let you talk.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

Like. Like that moment where you realize that everything is. Is done is like Zeus raising these scales just to see, like, all right, what, what, what. What do we need to be aiming for here? Like, what's.

[Craig]

What's.

[Emily]

What needs to happen right now, story wise. And Hector's death is. Is the thing that is coming. Like, we. We are not. It's not long now.

[Andrew]

It's not the first time we've seen the Zeus scales. And Wilson has mentioned before that there are. It's kind of strange as an image because like the gods. This whole poem, the gods are walking this, like, weird tension between these agency and. Yeah.

[Emily]

Being subject to the same fate as everybody else.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, are they. Are they. Is their role to ensure that these fates are met or are they allowed to mess with them? Like, that's Kind of what the whole book seems to be about.

[Emily]

Yeah, I mean, it seems like all the. Like, everything at a certain point is just like, kayfabe. Like, the. You're right. The fighting back and forth. Like, everybody the entire time is talking about what the ultimate outcome of this thing is going to be, and yet they keep doing all the. The shadow boxing.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. Seeing.

[Emily]

And the. And the, like, making the show of weighing the weights. Like, it's not like Zeus doesn't know how this is supposed to go because he's, like, talked about it directly multiple times.

[Andrew]

Yes, exactly.

[Craig]

Well, but.

[Emily]

But we still. But we still do it. We still go through the motions of it.

[Andrew]

Well, and sometimes when he talks about it, he talks about it like it's his will, but then he busts out the scales and he's like, just calling balls and strikes, man. Like, I'm just here to tell you, but let me send my daughter down here to make sure that you die.

[Emily]

Well, and when are, you know, are we sure that Zeus's weights are the same weight? Do we know whether he's putting his. His big old godly thumb on the scales? Like, do we know that he's an honest broker? Yeah, I don't know.

[Andrew]

We don't know that. You're right. Only the God of Thunder could know that. Maybe Poseidon knows. I'm not sure.

[Emily]

Maybe Cronus knows.

[Andrew]

Oh, I bet Cronus knows. What's Cronus? Oh, boy. His dad, Athena, is unleashed and decides to gaslight Hector, making him think that he does have a cool brother, DF Diaphobis. But he does.

[Emily]

Hector should know enough to know that he doesn't have a brother who's worth anything.

[Andrew]

I do like that. There's, like, two pretty nice human moments with Hector here. One is a little earlier, before the race really starts. He has, like, a stanza where he asks, like, himself, what if I went up to Achilles and just, like, promised to give Helen back? What if I decided not to fight? What? He says, like, four different what ifs. And this is an interesting moment where he's like, what if we didn't do this? And then he's quickly like, no, it's not gonna work. That guy's gonna. Even.

[Emily]

Even Achilles. Like. Like, after Patroclus has died, it's like, I wish there were no conflicts anymore. Like.

[Andrew]

Like, I like those beats.

[Emily]

These people want there not to be war, but they don't. Like, one, they don't know anything else. And two, they're always like, I don't want any more War. But first I need to, I need to achieve my ends. And then after that I don't want there to be war anymore.

[Andrew]

After I kill this guy, no more war. I'm saying it right now. And then this, this beat with his brother, who's not his brother, it's Athena, he's there and he's like, hey, Achilles. Hey Hector, you should go fight. You should go do it. I think you can do it. And Hector's like, okay. He goes to Achilles and he's like, hey, we're gonna fight. Let's make you bury me. I bury you. No spoilsy pact. Like let's make let's handshake on not messing each other's bodies up after death. And Achilles rejects it, says why would we do that? They exchange some spear throws, I think, and Achilles's gets teleported back to his hand by Athena.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Hector thinks that his brother is going to be standing there to help him get a new one or something. And he turns and his brother's gone. And he realizes that all of the gods have abandoned him. It's not just, oh, my brother's fake, oh, I'm gonna lose this fight. It is the gods that have helped me kill dudes for nine years are gone. I'm out. This is it.

[Emily]

I mean it's not, not even the gods have forsaken me, but like a God has actively tricked me.

[Andrew]

Yes, you're right. Yeah. It's not, it's not just that they're, they've left, it's that they are, they have decided against me. You're right. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I am always struck by how quick this fight is. Maybe it's just my like, you know, I don't know. I'm so used to like sword fights being like a thing.

[Emily]

Yeah. That when our to be more like give and take.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The more the, the, the way that this book draws out the conflict is the racing is the chasing which Achilles is swift footed. Achilles, he's always going to catch him. And so it's kind of remarkable that the gods and Hector and the poem allow it to go on as long as it does. But the fight itself is spear, spear, sword swing, spear. Like that's it.

[Emily]

Yeah. And it's really. And it's at a certain point it's more about how Achilles is going to respond to having achieved this end than it is about like the actual fight. The actual fight is pretty anticlimactic after a lot of the stuff that we, we've. After how long this book spent on guys like fighting to protect patroclus body.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Emily]

The fact that the big Achilles Hector confrontation that we've been building to this entire time is like a few dozen lines is really wild.

[Andrew]

And it doesn't feel deflating. I don't say this to say that it is deflating or underwhelming. It is.

[Emily]

No, it's just, it's been a foregone conclusion for this this entire time. And the poem is really like. Okay, I know I've been like dragging this out this whole time, but now that we're actually here, like, this is, this is what happens. And I'm not going to build a lot of a suspense or.

[Andrew]

That's a good way to think about it.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Do you have any quotes you were going to read?

[Emily]

Yeah. Just like, here's Hector having been. I think. I don't remember if this is before or just after Achilles stabs him. Because when Achilles stabs him, he doesn't, he doesn't cut the windpipe. So Hector gets a good last, you know, last speech here.

[Andrew]

Would you believe that critics and anti. That there was at least one critic in antiquity that didn't like that part because it was too unrealistic? Cinema sins. How would the spear not break his windpipe? It's unrealistic.

[Emily]

We can't, we can't break windpipes in movies anymore because of Woke. I beg you by your life, your knees. Your parents do not like dogs. Devour me by your ships. Accept the bronze and gold, the lavish gifts my noble parents will provide you with and give my body back. Let me go home so that Trojan men and Trojan wives grant me my due in death. A funeral pyre. Achilles says, no way. Dogs and birds will eat you up completely. He says. And then Hector says, Hector in his flashing helmet, dying, answered. I see you and I understand you. There is no way for me to change your mind. The heart inside your chest is made of iron. Be careful now. I may become the cause of wrath against you from the gods one day when Paris and Apollo will destroy you. Besides the ski, the skiing. Skiing gates. Despite your strength.

[Andrew]

Yep, yep, you're right. You mentioned earlier. Yeah.

[Emily]

Again that thing that you highlighted about like maybe Achilles fate is unchangeable, but certainly he is doing a lot of things that like his own society would have thought were like untoward and unfair and like breaking the rules of engagement.

[Andrew]

Well, and there's, it feels like there is a self fulfilling prophecy there too. Where like, okay, he's doing, he's being. Maybe he's being this Vicious because it's in him. And also, maybe he's being this vicious because of the prophecy. But also by being this vicious, he is forgoing any attempt at the gods, like, being like, oh, he's a good guy. Let's spare him. Like, he's going to mutilate this guy's corpse. This hero. We are. If there was a single doubt that maybe we would let Achilles through this one that's gonna be gone, you know?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And I mean, to be. To play Achilles advocate for a sec. I mean, it's not like the Trojans were like, okay, take Patroclus Body back. You can give him the death rites and whatever. Whatever. I don't think that. No, I don't remember exactly what Hector said he wanted to do to Patroclus Body. Maybe I'll try and look while you talk after. After this. But I don't think it was like, we're gonna let the dogs, like the dogs and the birds eat him and that'll just be it.

[Andrew]

No, like, I think they wanted to claim his body as a trophy, but I don't remember them wanting to destroy it. Yeah. I do think this Achilles thing, it is not by virtue of Achilles being off screen for most of the poem. This isn't like, oh, yes, he is a uniquely wrathful person. The reason the poem opens the way that it does, but the way that the poem is structured, it actually feels like his wrath is almost understandably, as we've been talking about, an escalation of the. The awful things that have been occurring. And, you know, we see the things that is occurring in response to. So it's not that he is just this, like, guy who popped into existence hating. There's a lot of grief driving his wrath as well. So I don't know. Did you find anything that answered your question?

[Emily]

Looking okay. Sure.

[Andrew]

That's fine. I'll keep. I'll keep working. Okay.

[Craig]

The.

[Andrew]

As I mentioned, there's the. There's the ancient critic that Wilson tells us about who didn't like how the spear didn't break his windpipe. When Hector. When has stabbed Hector. Hector is finished speaking and a bunch of Greeks run. A bunch of nameless Greeks run up and they're like, wow, that's Hector, huh? Let's poke him with our swords. Let's just stab this guy's body on the ground. And Achilles is like, yeah, I killed him. Thanks for stabbing him. I'm in charge now. And this is the part that does. Is awful is he lashes him to his chair like Hooks through his heels, connects him to his chariot, and just starts dragging him through the dirt, running him in front of the walls of Troy.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Coating his face and dust. It's awful. It's not just, oh, I'm leaving the corpse there and moving on. It isn't just leaving his body for the dogs. It's actually worse. It is active defilement.

[Emily]

Yeah. What? All I can find a book. There's a moment in book 17, Hector had stripped Patroclus of his armor. Then he tried to drag the corpse away. I don't know. Like, there's. There. I. I feel like I remember a more specific promise from Hector about what he.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

With the corpse.

[Emily]

But it's not. I don't. I don't think it's as bad as.

[Craig]

What? Achilles.

[Andrew]

It's not as bad. No. I mean, I think there is a. Earlier in the poem, there's that scene where I. They are allowed to kind of go out and deal with their dead a little bit. And so I think it's easy for us to grok that. Like, even just keeping the body from the other side is, you know, part of. It's partially an act of war, right. To deny the enemy that.

[Emily]

Yeah. It's just like the. The. I feel like the. The stakes and the atrocities on both sides. Like, it feels we've gone from, like, book three or four, whichever it was, where they actually, like, sit down and try to work it out one last time, to this one where it's, you know, it's time to drag the corpse of your vanquished foe before the. Before their mom and dad to, like.

[Craig]

Make them really, really sad about it.

[Emily]

Like, it's. Yeah, we've come along pretty terrible.

[Andrew]

So spoke Achilles. And that we have killed. We have achieved great glory. We have killed Hector, whom Trojans honored as a God. So spoke Achilles. And then he committed shameful atrocities on noble Hector. He pierced the tendons behind both his feet from heel to ankle, threaded leather straps and bound them to his chariot and let the head lull backward as he drove. He mounted, bringing the famous armor with the whip. He made the horses go. With no reluctance, they flew. A cloud of dust rose up around Hector as he was dragged along, his dark hair flowing with his whole face, which used to be so handsome down in the dust. On that day, Zeus allowed his enemies to mutilate and shame him in his own fatherland. Yes. The line about Zeus being involved too, is pretty interesting.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

And then the Trojans lament.

[Emily]

Trojans lament. I think I mean, Priam and Hecuba both get a moment. I think that the big. The big lamentation is Hector's wife, Andromache. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Wilson points out that the women keen and men grown. There's like, Greek words that align to both. Yes.

[Emily]

You know, men be like this and women be like this. You know what I mean? Cannot stop a woman from keening.

[Andrew]

It is what it is.

[Craig]

Women.

[Emily]

Women be keening.

[Andrew]

Similar to Achilles needing to learn the news about Patroclus. There is like a beat where people on the walls know what's happening before Hecuba does she. Andromache does. She hears Hecuba, which is what clues are into something being wrong. I just find it interesting that the poem kind of keeps that structure sometimes about, you know, people needing to find out the news and then. Yeah, heard her. Like, it's not just a. Oh, I'm sad Hector died. It's like a mix of anger at the fact that he was Hector, like, the champion of Troy. The fact that he's leaving his son behind. What will befall his son, Astyanax? Like, what will happen to him? Will he know a world without war? Like, will the Greeks just come in here and kill him? You know, it's pretty. It's pretty rough. Hector, my life is over. You and I were both born for this self. Same destiny. You were born here in Troy, in Priam's house. But I was raised in Thebe, underneath the forests of Mount Placis. And my father Etion cared for me when I was little. His luck was bad and mine was ruination. If only he had never had a daughter. Now you have gone beneath the depths of Earth, into the house of Hades, and you leave me in bitter grief a widow in your halls. Just a really good I'm a widow now speech.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And there's that bit about the. The kid being an orphan now. And like, it's nobody. Nobody is really going to care for this kid. No one, like the legitimate son of someone else is gonna come and swipe any kindness that anybody might show this kid for the rest of.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Let alone, like, who knows even what the fate of Troy is. It's just.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we know, but I mean.

[Andrew]

Well, and to be honest, I think they know.

[Emily]

I think they also know.

[Andrew]

I think they know. So. Yeah, it's. It's a pretty rough book.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I mean.

[Emily]

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it, but the. The sort of. The speed and the almost unceremoniousness of Hector dying, like, not. Not that you know, he gets a lot. He gets last words in, but. Yeah, but. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's one of those.

[Emily]

It's there and it's over. Like, you don't. You would expect it to be. It's not even the whole of one book, and you would expect it to be the entirety of. Of a couple of books, like, the. The back and forth between the two of them. Because you've gotten so much.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Back and forth between just random guys on the Greek side and Hector at so many different points.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. And. And, yeah.

[Emily]

How many guys did Diomedes fight that. That took, like, longer than this.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's true. And Achilles. And Achilles has not really had a prolonged encounter with anyone other than Apollo and a river. Powerful.

[Emily]

Yeah, he's OP. He's op. We got to patch this out.

[Andrew]

I mean, that's honestly why I think Homer was so smart to keep Achilles, like, in just this part of the book. He is too powerful of a character.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

It's like Superman. You can't, like, let him be there the whole book. You got to, like, put him in his fortress for a while.

[Emily]

Yeah. Mm.

[Andrew]

He's got too many powers. He's. What is the enormity? Achilles, it says, you know. All right, well, we've only got two more books left, Andrew.

[Emily]

That's.

[Andrew]

What do you think is gonna happen? Do you think it's gonna go well for everybody?

[Emily]

I think that everybody's gonna make up and go home.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And they're gonna, like, war will be over. Right. By the end of this. Yeah, definitely.

[Emily]

Yeah, for sure.

[Andrew]

Okay. Just want.

[Emily]

Can't imagine. I can't. Because I don't. Like, there wouldn't be any major. I mean, this is such a long poem. There wouldn't be any, like, major iconic, like, culturally eternal sequences.

[Andrew]

Idiomatic.

[Emily]

From this war. Yeah. There wouldn't be any of that. That, like, don't show up in the last couple of books, so. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Homer wouldn't have left anything out, I don't think.

[Emily]

No, he wouldn't have left anything out.

[Andrew]

Okay, well, we'll see. We'll see what happens. There's probably room for all of that in just the left. The next two books.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, there's. You can fit a lot inside of, like, I don't know, like, a wooden horse.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Example. So I bet you could fit at least as much story into the last two books of the Iliad as you could fit guys into a big wooden horse. For some reason.

[Andrew]

I don't know why, you're. This is an interesting metaphor you've chosen, but I don't.

[Emily]

Yeah, I just picked a wooden horse. It's weird. I don't know.

[Andrew]

It's weird.

[Emily]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it weird.

[Andrew]

Sorry. Omer. Andrew, what do we say at the end of every episode of Stop Homer Time? I'm gonna ready my spear of Pellian ash, which, as Wilson notes, means that the centaur Chiron made it for Achilles, which is just extra unfair. How dare he have so many magic items. But I got my spear ready and ready to throw it. What am I gonna say?

[Emily]

Get up, my little twisty foot. My. So.

[Andrew]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Stop Homer Time, a podcast about Emily Wilson's translation of Homer's the Iliad, brought to you by the boys at Overdue Podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Craig]

My name is Andrew.

[Andrew]

Sing me a song. Oh, Andrew. Of a man so mad he put on his own Olympics.

[Craig]

The biggest mad that any man has ever been. Do you think that our vibe is more Achilles and Patroclus or Achilles and Hector?

[Emily]

Like, which is if we had to.

[Craig]

Be like, you're the Hector and I'm the Achilles. Or is it which.

[Emily]

What?

[Craig]

Which two guys is us?

[Andrew]

Well, interesting. Do you want to be Achilles in both? Is that the vibe?

[Emily]

No.

[Andrew]

I don't know.

[Craig]

I don't. I don't need. I'm just. The first question is, like, which pair of guys are we collectively? And then which one of us individually is which?

[Andrew]

So I think. I think we're more of an Achilles and Patroclus.

[Craig]

Mm.

[Andrew]

Where we. Like, we're approaching things from a similar perspective from the side, from the same team, but it doesn't mean that we're not going to make rash decisions without consulting the other person.

[Emily]

Right.

[Andrew]

Making them mad. Or like, one of us is gonna sit by the beach and cry about a woman that we locked up but that someone got mad about.

[Craig]

And here's my pitch for myself as Achilles. I'm not trying to say I'm the main character. I am trying to say, what is your greatest strength?

[Andrew]

I'm like, Achilles.

[Craig]

I think I can get madder faster and longer for a dumber reason than you can. I think that's my super.

[Andrew]

No, I think you're right. I think that's a good read. I don't think I'm a Hector, though, is the thing.

[Craig]

No, you're not. I don't. You're a Hector either. No, no.

[Andrew]

And I do think that.

[Craig]

And if, and if you, if you died, I would be mad. So that that's a good case for you is Patroclus.

[Andrew]

I do also think that in a, In a conflict, in a large scale con, like, I need. I would want to. To rally people, but I might do it in a way that is like suboptimal and doesn't have a fight. Like a real clear exit plan.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then maybe you had warned me about thinking that that might not be a good idea.

[Craig]

Maybe, maybe I don't. Yeah. Like, I don't. It's not a perfect mapping because I don't even want to say that I'd be better at fighting in a war than you because I don't know.

[Andrew]

Patroclus is pretty good at it, though.

[Emily]

He's, you know, he is good at it.

[Craig]

It's just like nobody is sitting on the Trojan side and being like, man, I hope Patroclus doesn't come into the battle. That's true. That would suck.

[Andrew]

Well, they're just so happy is the thing.

[Craig]

Yes. Yeah. But I do think, based on my ability.

[Andrew]

Just. Your rage.

[Craig]

Yeah, my. Yes. That is what the book is about.

[Andrew]

The rage of Andrew.

[Craig]

The rage of Andrew. I'm. Yeah, Okay. I could get there.

[Andrew]

So this is our podcast where in.

[Craig]

Each episode we go, the cataclysmic wrath of great Achilles.

[Emily]

That's what it's about.

[Andrew]

That is.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Here lies Andrew. His wrath was cataclysmic.

[Craig]

I could get cataclysmically mad about something.

[Andrew]

I've seen you get mad. I don't know that I've seen a cataclysm before. Whoa. This podcast, we're going to be Talking about books 23 and 24 of the Iliad, the final two books. On our most recent episode, we talked about when Achilles killed a bunch of people named.

[Craig]

Came off the sidelines at long last and was very mad about his friend Patroclus being killed.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

And he goes on a killing spree, including fighting in a river, like, against a river.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The rivers are warm.

[Craig]

The river's like, hey, stop choking me with your dead. And Achilles is like, no, I don't want to.

[Andrew]

And then he takes it to Hector. He's, you know, he spikes it in the end zone. Kills Hector.

[Craig]

Yeah, Hector's dead.

[Andrew]

And everyone in. In Troy cries. Well, most of them cry. Yeah.

[Craig]

Not everybody knows yet.

[Andrew]

Well, that's true. Not everybody knows. And then we're gonna go here into book 23, which is called Funeral Games.

[Craig]

Funeral. Funeral Game.

[Andrew]

Funeral Games. This is an interesting.

[Craig]

It's an interesting, like, gap between, yes, Hector getting killed and Hector getting mourned.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Emily]

Because it is just like, let's do.

[Craig]

An Olympics real quick.

[Andrew]

This is a story all about how Achilles got flipped, turned upside down emotionally. That is emotionally trying to honor his dead friend Patroclus after slaughtering a bunch of Trojans, including their champion, Hector. As we said, he's doing his best to deface Hector's body. Yeah, the gods won't let him.

[Craig]

He's doing this in book 24 as well. It's just like dragging him around behind the chariot. And the gods are like, we're gonna wrap his body up and put oil on him so he can't rot or get all scratched up from the bad treatment.

[Andrew]

And while Achilles is doing this, he's also getting Patroclus's body ready. His whole deal is like, we're gonna do the funeral rites for Patroclus. We're not gonna do them for Hector. The dogs will have Hector. And he's visited by the spirit of Patroclus past, who begs him to do the rites so that he might enter Hades.

[Craig]

Yeah, just bury me, dude.

[Andrew]

Just bury me. Also. When you do it, though, can you make sure that there's room for our bones in the same urn together? Because don't forget, you're gonna die here.

[Craig]

Yeah, you're gonna die, and it's gonna be really soon. So make sure that you. You leave room for yourself.

[Andrew]

And with. They pile a whole bunch of stuff into a big funeral pyre around Patroclus, and with the help of the winds, they. They burn a giant funeral pyre. And then it's time for the games, baby.

[Craig]

It's time for the games.

[Andrew]

Time for the Achilles Games. He hosts the first annual Patroclus Memorial Games, during which a bunch of the Greeks compete for Achilles stuff in, like, the weirdest garage sale ever. And would you want me to have.

[Craig]

Games for you after you die?

[Andrew]

Yes. But you have.

[Craig]

Is that a way.

[Andrew]

You have to give away all of your electronics? You have to give away.

[Craig]

I would have to. Like, here.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Here's a binder full of Pokemon cards. Forever wins first in the foot race.

[Andrew]

Here's my non oled switch that I'm giving away. You know, like, you have to give away stuff that, like, you don't actually want, but it would, like, require you to think about giving it away. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Here's my second thinkpad. Not the one that I've been. That I've been working on a lot, you know.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure. You Love Okam my second old Goodwill ThinkPad. Yes.

[Andrew]

And at the end even we're gonna go through the games in a little more detail. But at the end every, you know, major Greek that's alive has participated. Even Agamemnon is invited into the spear throwing competition. But perhaps learning a lesson from the beginning of the poem, Achilles doesn't bother making him do it and just gives him a prize.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Achilles is like, everybody, everybody knows you're strong. Everybody knows you're a big strong guy. You could just, you could just have it.

[Andrew]

It's a weird scene.

[Craig]

It's a. Yeah. It's a strange vibe between the two of them and you get the distinct sense that they're probably, if they both lived long enough they would probably find something else to beef about. But they're both being one like good if passive aggressive behavior with each other right now.

[Andrew]

Everybody kind of is like, there's an interesting vibe of this book which is just like, yeah, this is a thing we do. There's no like. And then they sang the song of the games. As you know, dear reader, there's always games at the funeral. It's just we burned the dude. We cried a bunch. It's time for the prizes. Time to roll out prizes.

[Craig]

Yeah. Maybe they wouldn't need feel the need to describe their society to us because they all would have known about it and they wouldn't really.

[Andrew]

Well have. That's reasonable. But I don't know. What do you think about the first, the pre game part of the book, Andrew? Anything strike you?

[Craig]

I just, I just want to get right to the chariot race. But what did you think about the pregame part of the book?

[Andrew]

You know, there's stuff, stuff like we're going to talk in book 24, I think about how dirty some of the characters are. But there is like a point at the beginning of this book where it's very specific about the fact that Achilles has not washed any of the blood and guts off of his body, which I think is a, is another form of transgression. Like he's allowed, you're allowed to wash Patroclus's dead body. But I'm still covered in Trojan blood and guts. And that's like I'm gonna do that until my boy is clean and buried.

[Emily]

Yeah, it's just Achilles's.

[Craig]

Achilles's whole thing is not letting stuff go.

[Andrew]

No, not at all.

[Craig]

Yeah. And this is another manifestation of that.

[Andrew]

I think there's a couple like just the parts of the funeral pyre that stood out to me like they is really big. It's got horses in it, it's got dogs in it.

[Emily]

Oh yeah.

[Craig]

Didn't he kill like Achilles killed a bunch of Trojan kids.

[Andrew]

He killed 12 Trojan younglings and put them in the pyre. And there's. Because there's a point later where they're like, okay, after we burn this, we're gonna have to go in there and get patroclus bones.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I don't remember who it is, but they're like, don't worry. We set up the bodies in such a way that you will be able to find the patroclus bones.

[Craig]

The other bones.

[Andrew]

Yes. Emily Wilson notes in her postscript for this book that this is maybe the only mention of human sacrifice in the poem.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Which you might also maybe connect to the fact that like, the pyre doesn't light at first and requires additional prayer and supplications.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

To like.

[Craig]

And it's not. They don't really talk about it as much in this book, but the gods are getting kind of upset with Achilles about his treatment of Hector in the next book.

[Andrew]

It's boiling. It's going to boil over in the next book one. Yeah.

[Craig]

And he does like Achilles does specifically say like, I'm doing all this for Patroclus, but, but I should not give Hector the son of Priam to the.

[Emily]

Fire to eat, but to the dogs.

[Craig]

Cuz he's trying to maximally dishonor him. The dogs won't eat him partly because of the, like, the godly protection that his corpse is under.

[Andrew]

Yeah. My, my note here just says like it's all, it's, it's a very extra funeral pyre which is in good contrast with the nothing that Hector is getting.

[Craig]

Achilles is a big boy and he has big feelings.

[Andrew]

He does, he does. And you know, I stood out to me when they cut their hair and they put in the funeral pyre, they cover. They just rub fine sheep fat all over his body to make it burn good.

[Craig]

Must absolutely stink.

[Andrew]

It must smell so bad.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Sting your eyes like, just bad. No thanks. And then when, when he does see patroclus ghost, I don't think. Do you think it was a dream? Did he see the ghost? He saw a ghost, right?

[Craig]

Yeah. I mean he saw it in a, in a dream, but we've seen multiple examples of things coming to people in a dream because that's just like.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

That's just the way you can come to somebody you've died already. Yes.

[Andrew]

Because he does stand up at the end and, like, yells to the whole beach, like, I saw ghost. I saw my boy M. But then, yeah, they bury everybody. And he's like, okay, time for chariot competition. Time for the games. Yeah. Tell me about these games, Andrew.

[Craig]

Man. So. So before, you know, before every one of the games and there are, like, how many? There are like, half a dozen. Ish.

[Andrew]

There's always one more than I thought there would be. It kept going.

[Craig]

Yeah. And. And the, you know, homer starts out describing the chariot thing and at great length. And then by the time you're to, like, the fifth game is just like. Yeah. And then it was time for the rest.

[Andrew]

It was time for painful wrestling, and then it was time for painful boxing.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

But the cherry race gets. The cherry race gets the. The meat of the chariot race gets.

[Craig]

The most, like, the most lines dedicated to it. And it's just. It's funny because, like, Diomedes is up in here. He's kind of kicking everybody's butt, like he does. And then you get a bunch of other boys who are racing worse than that. And I just thought I found a lot of it very funny. Like this guy Antilicus.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Antilicus. He's like. He's. He factors a lot into these games. I like Antilicus here.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah. So he is. He's not winning the horse race. And he's like, listen, I don't think. Like, I'm not. We're not gonna catch up with Diomedes, but we can be Menelaus. Menelaus sucks. And then he starts yelling at his horses. And initially it's like, you know, it's like normal horse yelling.

[Emily]

Faster, faster.

[Craig]

Gallop ahead at top speed, both of you, but catch up with the horses of Menelaus, son of Atreus. Hurry and do not let them stay ahead. And then it gets a little darker after that. Why are you behind? Excellent stallions. I promise you this is the truth.

[Emily]

You will lose all the care that.

[Craig]

Nestor Shepard of the people gives you, and he will slaughter you immediately using a sharp bronze blade if you slack off and win the lesser prize. Brave, beautiful horses. If you do not run faster and catch up with Menelaus.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Craig]

That we are going to kill you.

[Andrew]

So the. Yes. So this is Nestor's son. And I do love the pregame, like, pep talk that Nestor gives him where he's like, listen, son, you're very good at horses. You're my son. Your horses kind of stink. Like, everybody's got better Horses, are they?

[Craig]

Yeah, they're like a little old or something. They're not prime horses.

[Andrew]

But he says, listen, you like his, his, his take is that people who drive really good horses get lazy. Somebody who drives inferior horses with knowledge and intelligence keeps watching the turning post and steers them tight around it, never forgetting how to hold the reins firmly and steadily. Eyes on the track. And so he points out as if he were doing like a track walk for an established race track, like a very specific spot where if he takes the inside corner, he will mess someone up if he just like works his inferior horses into a specific lane.

[Craig]

Like they aren't just like racing on some like, yeah, blood caked battlefield. They just like set up in the middle of. So yeah, Antilicus kind of is, does something very dangerous. He races ahead of Menelaus like at like a weird hair, like a risky hairpin turn. And Menelaus like is playing chicken basically. And Menelaus like stops because he knows that both their horses can't fit through this, like this stretch at the same time. And then he literally yells, antilicus, your driving is too reckless.

[Emily]

Hold your horses.

[Andrew]

You are the worst. He says, I feel like Wilson's having a lot of fun with this, with this book in particular.

[Emily]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's got to be.

[Craig]

A, a break for the translator in the same way that it's kind of a break for the reader.

[Andrew]

Yes. Oh yes, the who. So Diomedes is the one who wins that. There is this fun little bit. Oh man, there's like a sports betting section where like everybody's back at camp, like looking at the dust clouds, like trying to discern who is in the lead and they're wagering on who it is. And it's just like, okay, that's very old. That's fun. Moriones is the worst and he comes in second to last. I think it says finished a spears.

[Craig]

Throw after Menelaus because his thick maned horses were the slowest and he was the worst driver in the race.

[Andrew]

But Diomedes gets first and Antilochus gets second. And then there's this fun little bit where Achilles talks about giving it, giving the second place prize to the last place guy for funsies. And Antilicus gets all mad.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And talks his way into an extra prize. And that is something that, that intelligence does like two or three times, which is.

[Craig]

Yeah, I mean, listen, if you can get, if you can get it, get it. Like he's on that, he's on that grind set he's hustling.

[Andrew]

Yes. Wilson points out that maybe that is a way for the power of, you know, the skill of rhetoric to be displayed in a series of, like, physical feats. You have a character who is, like, talking their way into prizes, which is kind of neat.

[Craig]

Another thing about this, and I don't have a specific section of this pulled up, but they do start. So there are sections where the gods, like, come in. I think Diomedes in particular, is helped along by a. By a God.

[Emily]

It says.

[Craig]

Yes, but if you, you know. So you're reading it and in this book, gods really exist and they literally come down and they do all kinds of stuff. But if you think about the sort of pagan pantheon as like, a collection of explanations for why natural stuff happens, I really do like the. The. The aesthetic of a guy, like, losing a race and coming in and being like, man, it was a God's f. They favored you and they hate me and it's not my fault. Like, I don't stink. It was the gods. Yes, the gods did it.

[Andrew]

Yes, you are.

[Craig]

Specifically, I think there's something really. There's something really compelling about.

[Andrew]

I love it so much. You're thinking about when they do a foot race. So after the chariot race, there's a boxing tournament where the guy Apias wins.

[Craig]

Do you mean painful boxing?

[Andrew]

Painful boxing. A PS Wins. He stands up and he goes, I'm not great at everything, but I'm good at punching. And he wins. And then they do painful wrestling.

[Craig]

He says, I'm not great in battle. I have enough shortcomings. I admit it. No man can be the best at everything, but I can promise you that I will punch right through his skin and flesh and break his bones.

[Andrew]

I love a guy who knows what his deal is.

[Craig]

I can't do anything, but I have a killer falcon punch.

[Andrew]

Then they do painful wrestling, which is telamonian. Ajax versus Odysseus. It's sort of a draw. Odysseus, like, manages to trip him, but he can't lift him.

[Craig]

Yeah. Quit now. Do not exhaust yourselves with pain. The victory belongs to both of you. Take equal prizes and be off with you. So that the other Greeks can now compete. And that is why soccer has ties. It goes all the way back to Greece.

[Andrew]

Yes, Achilles, we're all getting bored here. Let's go home. Then they do the foot race with Oily and Ajax, Odysseus and Antilochus. And you're right, Odysseus gets help from Athena, trips Ajax, who literally falls into.

[Craig]

Cow poop that's really funny.

[Andrew]

Pretty funny.

[Craig]

He tumbled in the dung from all the bellowing bulls. Achilles slaughtered the cattle dung. Wait, I've read that.

[Emily]

Bad.

[Craig]

He tumbled in the dung from all the bellowing bulls. Achilles slaughtered the cattle. Dung filled up his mouth and nostrils. This is outrageous. The goddess tripped me up. She always stands beside Odysseus and gives him help as if she were his mother, I feel like. Which is a good dis.

[Andrew]

This also, listen, if you are teaching this book, I really hope you're teaching the part where oily and Ajax falls into poop. Like, I just need people to know that it's in here as, like, a counterbalance to all the, like, emotional war stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, sometimes a guy just falls into poop, and it's pretty funny.

[Craig]

I just think you. You need to.

[Emily]

You.

[Craig]

You as the reader, need to know which of the Ajax is, like, canonically better in this.

[Andrew]

And it's definitely.

[Craig]

It's definitely tell Moni and Ajax.

[Andrew]

But, yeah, that's the one where he's like, oh, man, Athena's always helping you. That's why I fell in this cow dung. They do one. They do a weapon fight for the arms of Sarpedon. That's Telemonian.

[Craig]

Not like it. Not. Not like his. Not like his arms.

[Andrew]

No. His weapons like a sword and some of his armor. And Telamonian. Ajax and Diomedes fight. Diabetes has the upper hand. But everyone's like, oh, no, we don't want Ajax to get hurt. Let's call the fight.

[Craig]

Now it's all these big, beefy boys who had to carry, like, earlier sections of the.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

Before Achilles was in it. But now Achilles is here, and they've kind of faded into the background, and they just get to, like, be players in his. In his game. In his game of super Greek brothers.

[Andrew]

They do a hammer throw of some kind with a big hunk of metal.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Emily Wilson's like, we don't really know what it was. It doesn't. It might have been a meteorite. It might have been a lump of iron ore. We're not sure what it was, but it's a big, heavy thing. And Polypoidies throws it better than anybody else. They do some archery with Teucer and Moriones. And I thought Teucer was gonna win because he's the archer guy.

[Craig]

He is the archer guy. But guess what? Teucer did not. He shot his arrow with all his might, but failed to make a vow to sacrifice a glorious hecatomb. A hundred newborn lambs For Lord Apollo.

[Andrew]

Apollo is greedy. A hundred newborn lambs.

[Craig]

I'm gonna. That's what I'm saying is to, like, to win one game and, like, get a cool cup or something, like, you have to sacrifice a hundred lambs. That's so many lambs.

[Andrew]

Lambs.

[Craig]

I know it's ancient Greece, but I bet all these guys aren't, like, swimming in lambs after being at war for 10 years.

[Andrew]

Unbelievable. And the competition is. Shoot an arrow at a dove that I tied to a stick.

[Craig]

Yeah, they're really making things up as they go along at this point.

[Andrew]

And Teucer frees the dove.

[Craig]

This is trying to invent new games at a kid's birthday party to keep the children entertained. Like, yeah, you can go draw with chalk on the woods fence. That's fine.

[Andrew]

Who can throw this bottle cap at Nana? Like, come on.

[Craig]

Hucking stuff at Nana. What kind of birthday parties are you having?

[Andrew]

Toosoers birthday party?

[Craig]

I mean, you got. You got one to figure out in a couple months.

[Andrew]

I do.

[Craig]

Fucking bottle caps at your mom.

[Andrew]

No, we're not gonna do that.

[Craig]

We're not.

[Andrew]

Hey, we're not gonna do that.

[Craig]

Not as part of a game.

[Andrew]

I'm using my. Don't do that Simon voice. I mean, if my mom starts, like, doing bad standup, like, I'll bring out the bag of tomatoes. Listen.

[Craig]

Well, she starts throwing stuff at me, then it's on.

[Andrew]

Oh, this party's out of control.

[Craig]

Then it's a throw. Then it's a throw.

[Andrew]

Listen, Simon is gonna throw his patroclus games, and you all have to do a chariot race. No. And then, you know, Tusa freeze the. The dove. And Moranes, who did sacrifice a hundred lambs, shoots it out of the sky like a boss. Like Annie Oakley over here.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Just shooting doves. And then, yeah, Achilles is like, hey, let's. Who wants to do javelin? And Moranes is like, well, I do. And then Agamemnon is like, I do. And Achilles like, cool. We don't need to do javelin.

[Craig]

Son of Atreus, we know you are.

[Emily]

Superior to everybody else.

[Craig]

You are the best at power and at throwing. So take this prize back to your hollow ships, and we shall give the spear. If you are willing to, Lord Meriones, I think we should. And Agamemnon, Lord of men. Agreed.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Of course he would agree.

[Craig]

I am the best at power and at throwing. Thank you very much.

[Andrew]

Two other notes from Wilson. At some point in this book, Achilles smiles. And it's the only time he smiles in the entire Poem. Well, which also keep in mind, he did take, like a good half the poem off. Like, he just disappeared. So maybe he was smiling that whole time, who knows?

[Craig]

Yeah, I mean, I find it unlikely because, like, the only time you see him, he's, like, crying about something.

[Andrew]

No textual evidence to support that. He has never smiled during that time, though. Just saying, sure, maybe he did. And then her. This is a direct quote of her reasoning for, like, what is going on here with these funeral games. The games show that victory is the result of not only talent and training, but also luck and divine favor. And they offer a model for how a group of ultra competitive people might be able to share wealth and power without deadly quarrels. I think it was an interesting take because I was reading this being like, oh, look, another chapter where we are watching the Greeks kind of squabble and fight amongst themselves. But actually it's more orderly than that. There are multiple places where it could escalate into violence. And Achilles routinely finds a way to cool everybody down.

[Craig]

Well, that's what, that's where the, the God thing, like, I, I talked about it in the, the context of finding it a little silly, but giving them the ouch to be like. To like, save face and be like.

[Emily]

Oh, well, it was a God.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that helped you.

[Craig]

And that's why I lost. Like, that's, that is. Yeah, that's one way to avoid coming to mortal blows because of painful boxing or whatever.

[Andrew]

And just a different energy among them all, probably because Achilles just killed Hector. Than the beginning of the poem where they're fighting over individual captives. And here it's like, you know, let's give Nestor a pop because Nestor's hanging around. Like, let's just give people stuff.

[Craig]

Well, a little bit, A little of it. I mean, this is just subtext, I don't know, that talks about this being an actual. But a little of it reads like. Including the Agamemnon thing, a little of it reads like Achilles being like, hey, listen, I was sorry. I'm really sorry. I was a huge knob and got a bunch of you killed by not being in the fighting.

[Andrew]

It's a healing intensity.

[Craig]

Why don't you partake of my bounty, everybody?

[Andrew]

It is very. Yes, I think it's very interesting that specifically Achilles is giving up a bunch of his stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's not everybody, like, putting stuff into a pot and then winning that. It's Achilles being like, hey, here's some of my junk.

[Andrew]

I do love whenever they talk about drawing lots, though, where it's just like, Everybody. I just think it's cool. It's like, take a rock and like, you know, sketch, like, crawl something on it and then put it in somebody's helmet. And then we play Yahtzee to find out who goes first. Like, I just think it's neat. Okay, tell me about book 24, Andrew.

[Craig]

24. Time to mourn.

[Andrew]

Time to mourn.

[Craig]

So the games wrap up. Everyone else goes to eat and sleep, but Achilles cannot do that because Achilles, as we have established many times, has cannot be chill about anything ever.

[Andrew]

It's true.

[Craig]

He's. He's still dragging Hector's body around Patroclus tomb. The gods are still protecting Hector's body, but most of them are up in Olympus getting pretty mad at Achilles about it. It's only like, Hera, Athena, and Poseidon, who hates.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The Trojans so much that they're kind of on his side about how he's, like, desecrating. Desecrating the. The body of Hector. They briefly talk. I think it's. Hermes is like, what if I just went down and took the body? And Zeus is like, no, no, no, you can't do that. Yes. I don't remember if it's Hermes or somebody else, but there is a moment where the gods are like, hey, should we step in and resolve this? And Zeus is like, no, we need to do it a little more indirectly than that. That. So Zeus summons Thedas up, who's Achilles's mom, tells her to tell Achilles that he's making the gods really mad and to accept a ransom for Hector's body. And then Thedas is gonna go over and tell Priam the same thing, that.

[Andrew]

He should take a. Iris goes and tells Prime.

[Craig]

Iris goes and tells Priam, yes. The gods are scattered. And tell each of these guys, hey, here's what you need to do to resolve this. And they both agree pretty readily.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think Achilles. Achilles. Faster than I expected. I mean, it is his mom asking him, and he does. You know, he's. We've not really seen him push back against her that much ever. Yeah, but I think that.

[Craig]

That the.

[Emily]

The God.

[Craig]

It's a combination of, like, hey, listen, you're fated to die soon anyway. And also the gods are really mad at you. Is this. Is this how you. Is this how you want to go? And. Yeah, Achilles is like, fine, I will get it. I will get. I will give Priam the body, whatever.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And then Priam also agrees really quickly to go and take ransom over, though, as he is putting together the big cart full of like, gold and stuff. His wife Hecuba does come in and is like, hey, don't do this. He killed a bunch of our sons. And then Priam tells her, you must not be a bird of ill omen in my house to me. Which I'm going to start saying to Susanna all the time.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Priam is like a. Is a really interesting character in that whole sequence because when Hermes first shows up. Or no, when Iris first shows up. Excuse me, Hermes shows up later. Iris shows up and is like, I'm a God, Iris. Like, I'm not hidden. I'm not disguised. And Prime's like, yeah, I'm the king of Troy and I'm covered in dung because of my mourning practices. Oops, Oops. And Iris is like, no, no, no. You gotta go do this stuff. And he's like, okay, fine, Hecuba. Quit being a bird of ill omen. Let's pack up all the stuff in the mules. And then he's. There's, like 20 sons there of his that. He's just like, you're all garbage.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So Priam puts a tunnel loot together. He comes out of his palace, and there's just a bunch of Trojans gathered there. Like, that's the first group he yells at.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And Priam is like, yeah, you all suck. And Hector being dead is gonna make you all easier to kill, you vultures.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And then he meets the group of surviving kids, which includes Paris, and he says, basically, all my good kids died, and you're all trash, and I hate you.

[Andrew]

Put the stuff on the cart, you idiot.

[Emily]

I wish.

[Craig]

I wish you had died instead of Hector. Yeah, it's pretty rough. Then as he gets ready to set out toward the. The Greek camp, he asks Zeus, hey, could you show me a bird so I know that this is legit cool with this. And Zeus shows him. It shows him an eagle. He's fine.

[Andrew]

You have to tell me if you're a cop, Zeus. Like, that's.

[Craig]

Yeah, you have to show me a bird. If you don't, it's entrapment. Her. And then Zeus sends Hermes down to guide Priam into the Greek camp without being noticed.

[Andrew]

Hermes is. Hermes is apparently hot. Hermes is a magistrate with. With beard. First sprouting the most handsome age.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. So he. And it's cool. Like, let's not put a number on. On the age.

[Andrew]

No, no. Just the most handsome one. Any age.

[Craig]

Imagine the most handsome age you possibly can. It's third. It's 38. For those of you at home.

[Andrew]

I'm gonna pretend like I'm gonna run out on the battlefield pretending like I'm 38 to, you know, Hermit Hermes says he's a Myrmidon. He pretends to be one of Achilles's guys.

[Craig]

Yeah, he pretends to be one of Achilles guys. They have a little conversation, and then they make. They make it over to the Greek camp. Hermes reveals himself to Priam, is like, hey, I'm a God. I'm not going in there. I can't accept, like, hospitality from humans. But you should go in.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Weird rule.

[Craig]

Priam does go in, and it's not really, like, begging or supplicating quite. But he's very deferential to Achilles. There's that line in there about how he. How Priam, like, kisses Achilles. It's. He stood near Achilles and touched his knees and kissed his hands. The terrible, murderous hands which killed so many sons. So it's like Priam really, like, having to ignore or even forgive a lot of what this guy has done to him because he just wants his son's body back so badly. Like, that's his one objective here.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

And he says to Achilles, you know, this is. Your dad is at home alone, and you're not there with them. But at least he has the, like, the hope of, like, maybe one day my son will come back. And I don't even have that anymore.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it is. I did find it a little funny that Priam walks in there and it says that. What does it say? Great. Priam came in unnoticed. He stood near Achilles and touched his knees and kissed his hand. So he just kind of slipped in there. Yeah.

[Craig]

I mean, that's Hermes for you, baby. Giant slayer. That's true.

[Andrew]

But if I was Achilles, and all of a sudden Priam was just, like, there.

[Craig]

I think he's just kind of. He's a little stunned by. Honestly. Because he knows who Priam is. He's not like.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

He says prime at the beginning of the book. Who's forgotten who? Everybody is so silly. Achilles and Priam both. Both weep together.

[Andrew]

Achilles is impressed that Priam came this way.

[Craig]

Yeah. That he came this way and that he's. You know, that this is how he is.

[Andrew]

Because there's no guard. There's just. There's just the mule driver. And that's it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And this is. That was very specific in Zeus's directions to Priam that were passed through Iris. It's one of those passages of the book where Zeus tells someone, go to this person and tell them A, B, C, and D. And then the person goes and tells A, B, C, and D. Like it's recounted. Exactly. Instead of just being like, Iris said, what Zeus said.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

But, yeah, he was told to go just by himself and then with the driver for the cart so he could take the loot out and bring Hector back. So Achilles and Priam weep together over the grief that they are sharing. Prime just wants Hector's body and wants to get out of there. Achilles gets a little touchy about it. But Achilles does end up just getting. He, like, he receives Priam's ransom, and then his attendants get Hector's body ready. Achilles briefly asks Patroclus, hey, man, don't get mad at me about this.

[Andrew]

Yeah, he does say that. He's like, listen, I might be. If you're listening, this might seem kind of crappy, but we're here. We're both crying. I think I need to do this.

[Craig]

And I honestly think Patroclus vibe, like, based on how he appeared to Achilles in a dream, to be like, hey, could you do the death rites for me? I think what Patroclus would want in this situation is for Achilles to do what he's supposed to do.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

For Hector and, like, respect the dead and then, like, move on. Which is the thing, again, that Achilles is not coming. Constitutionally capable of doing. But. And then, you know, once. Once this has happened, Achilles is like, hey, even sad people with dead kids have to eat, so sit and eat with me.

[Andrew]

Yeah, true.

[Craig]

They both kind of stare at each other in mutual admiration. Prime is just, like, taken by how, like, big and strong Achilles is, and Achilles is impressed by how, like, sort of noble. Yeah, they do.

[Andrew]

My note just says they marvel at each other, which they.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like, they're both. They're both kind of impressed with each other.

[Craig]

You know, in a different. In a different world, I could have called you friend.

[Andrew]

It is interesting, and I don't remember where in the conversation it happens. It might happen a little bit later, but there is this other energy to the scene where Achilles and Priam both know that if anybody else finds out this is happening.

[Craig]

Yep. Yep.

[Andrew]

Like, it's game over.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

No one else will. Will broker a deal like this. Like, if Agamemnon or Menelaus walk in, like. Like, Prime's just dead or the war.

[Emily]

Achilles isn't even.

[Craig]

He's not even. He's not even the lead. The leader of any. Anybody.

[Andrew]

Nope.

[Craig]

Like, the. The leadership of this is, like, nominally, I think, Agamemnon, but realistically, like, a Big group of a bunch of strong boys. And I don't. I just don't think. I don't think Agamemnon's gonna go for it. And I don't think a big, like a big group of strong Greek boys is going to talk themselves into.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, they're rowdy. Too rowdy.

[Craig]

Too rowdy, these rowdy boys. So they admire each other. Achilles asks Priam, like, how long will you mourn, Hector? And I will, I will call the war off for that long. They, you know, does for all the desecration of Hector's corpse that Achilles has done in his. In his rage. He is kind of doing right by both of their, like, societies in this.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Priam books it out before anybody can notice him. Gets Hector's body back to Troy. We get these sections where Andromache and Hecuba and Helen all have like these specific sections of mourning for Hector. Like, Andromache is like, it's. You didn't even. You didn't even leave me with like, last words to think of as I try to remember you. And now me and my son are either going to be enslaved or killed.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Or one of each.

[Andrew]

Yeah. She is very right to not stop pointing that out.

[Craig]

Yeah. Hecuba kind of marvels at how his body was protected by the gods. And, you know, they must really have liked you, you know, not, not enough to. To not let you die, but enough to. Yeah, they really like you. Yeah. And then Helen has a big passage where she says, basically Hector's the only member of the entire family who was ever nice to her.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, I remember that.

[Craig]

And there's just, you know, there is a society wide mourning. They have 12 days to do it. On the 10th day, I think they build Hector's pyre. And then the last quote of the book. And so they held the funeral for horse lord Hector.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And just as we begin not at the beginning of the Trojan War, we end not at the end with everything.

[Emily]

You're right.

[Craig]

With everything, you know, heavily implied, but, you know, there's. There's no horse. There's no ends to the fighting. We don't return to Achilles or any of the other Greeks after Hector returns home. It's just like it begins with Achilles being mad, it ends with Hector being dead.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

It's pretty sad. And it's like, that's it. It's amazing to me that it like manages to evoke the sadness it does when, when like we've spent all this time with these characters who clearly were Making decisions that were not good decisions. And I mean, Hector had multiple opportunities to, to not do this or. But also, what else was he gonna do there on his beach, trying to kill his town and everybody.

[Craig]

I mean, the, the entire.

[Emily]

It was like book three or four, whatever it is, where they're all like.

[Craig]

Sitting down and trying to figure out a way not to. Yeah, have this war. Like, it's, it's. There are a million points where all of this could have been prevented and then later, even like multiple smaller events could have been kept from happening. And it's all just like barreling forward because of fate and prophecy and whatever you want to call it. But.

[Andrew]

And I think that must be what is like, welling up in me as I read the end of this poem, where it's just like, it must be the kind of aggregate. This was avoidable feeling like that tragedy. Because it's not like I don't feel it quite for an individual character. It comes out of this big display of grief. Like, the line that like, kicks off all of the morning is, you know, they bring home Hector. And it's just this beginning of a stanza that says at this no man or woman stayed in Troy. Intolerable grief possessed them all. And it just goes on from there. And that's where you get Hecuba and Andromache. And then the final stanza is just really good. His brothers and companions, their faces soaked with tears, still sobbing hard, collected up his white bones, which they carried and laid inside a golden chest and set soft purple clods to cover them, and quickly lowered the chest into a fresh dug grave and heaped large stones on top, set close together. Soon they piled high the mound and round about it stood guards on every side in case the Greeks attacked too soon in all their splendid armor. After the mound was built, they went back home, then came together for a glorious banquet inside divine King Priam's house. And so they held the funeral for horse lord Hector. Just like a couple reminders of what Troy might have been before the war. The fact that the battle could still happen at any second.

[Craig]

And it's, you know, it's both morning Hector. And again, this is. This is me reading some text into it that may or may not exist. But, like, they all know the way. This.

[Andrew]

Yes, that is also that.

[Craig]

Yeah, like Priam. And Priam knows how it's going to end. Like, you can't have the leader of your city walking through the streets being like, well, you're all going to be a bunch. A lot easier to kill now. Because my son's dead.

[Andrew]

You're right.

[Craig]

Have that happening and have like, good morale also.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The funeral for Hector is the funeral for Troy. Like, if you look at it that way, for sure.

[Craig]

And yeah, but the, but the. You know, I'm thinking of what Wilson was talking about in her like, intro and translators note where a lot of this resonates with like current active like service members who are embroiled in like modern day conflict. And it's kind of, you know, if you, if you read it at like purely a surface level where it's like these funny, like oiled up guys running around and like, oh yeah, doing all this stuff, it's hard to see maybe where that connection is coming from. But yeah, it's like war is very violent.

[Emily]

War is very sad.

[Craig]

And also in retrospect, you can identify a million points where it could have been prevented or called off and wasn't. And that's that. Yeah. And that just makes all of the sad stuff that much harder to, to, to bear is like, what did it have to be this way? I don't know.

[Andrew]

There's something in, I think it was book 23 when they're prepping the funeral pyre for Patroclus, where when they start cutting off their hair to add it to the pyre and there's like a bunch of lines about how long Achilles has let his hair grow and Wilson has a note. It's like he's been there for a long time. Like he's probably. Who knows what's going on with his hair. Doesn't make quite make sense. But there's.

[Emily]

Listen, it just, it just takes a.

[Craig]

Long time to grow bangs out.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Craig]

Like, it's. And it's hard, it's hard work.

[Andrew]

There's a. But there's a line in there that he was like, like kind of saving it for maybe for mourning for his father or like he had planned to spend those grief dollars later. Basically. Like he. The events of the war were such that he had to personalize and literalize grief in a way that he was not prepared to do. And then like, that's an interesting thing to think about too in terms of what you were saying where like, it's a reminder of how grief is never on your terms when you experience loss. And like in this type of situation especially. Right.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

The other notes from Wilson, there's when in this book, when Thedas goes to talk to Achilles, there's a whole part where she talks about like, maybe you should go back to like, live life and not just sit here and be sad. There's a couple lines in there that folks have, like, turned over as how we might interpret the Patroclus Achilles relationship. Like, how, you know, physical. Is it. Is he interested in women or not? Like, she just kind of comes down on the. Like. I don't know if Thedas is telling him to, like, live life and he's removed himself from it, but scholars have also.

[Craig]

You also do get one line real quick in here where Achilles is, like, laying down after all this has happened. And Brise is there.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig]

Get that one little tiny mention of.

[Andrew]

Remember her?

[Emily]

Of the.

[Craig]

You know, the prize that. That started the whole thing.

[Andrew]

And then this book is also the only time where they, like, explicitly reference the whole Judgment of Paris thing. Like, the gods bring it up in this book where they're like, yeah, remember that time that Paris made us really mad at the wedding? And then, like, he got hell in, and then they. He, like, ran away and it started a war.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Okay, let's put this at the end of the Homer.

[Craig]

What are you doing already? Everybody knew already.

[Andrew]

You're right. They don't have to explain their culture to me. It's fine. This is their culture.

[Craig]

It's like going in to see the. Only that, like, the 27th Marvel movie and being like, why am I so confused about everything? What's going on? Who's that guy?

[Andrew]

Spider Man. What is that about?

[Emily]

What's.

[Craig]

What is with this Spider Man?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Good poem, though, huh? Good.

[Craig]

Good poem.

[Emily]

What do you, like?

[Craig]

I come away with it from it not really having changed my, like, relative opinion of the. Of the Odyssey and the Iliad. Like, I still think the Odyssey is the more entertaining story. I still think. If you're looking for, like, the roots of modern fiction and modern novels in. In these. I think the Odyssey is, like, a more recognizable.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I buy that. I buy that.

[Craig]

I think there's still a lot of books in the middle of this that blend together a lot. Like, just like a lot of the fighting and stuff.

[Emily]

Not.

[Craig]

Not to say that it's interchangeable or that there's. There's nothing happening. Like, I think something that we were tracking as we were reading is all the ways that the book and that Wilson find to just say, a guy died.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like, there are a million ways to do it. And when you're looking at that, like, close a level at the, you know, the individual word choices, there's a lot of, like, interesting stuff going on, but it's still, like, this is the best read of the Iliad that I think I've had any of the times that I've read.

[Andrew]

Welcome.

[Craig]

And I'm not gonna say it's like changed, like drastically changed my opinion of the poem.

[Andrew]

But your homer rankings stay the same.

[Craig]

Yeah, like my homer, my power rankings stay the same. But I do like the Iliad more now than I liked it before.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think it is a bit more about it.

[Craig]

I appreciate it more now for sure.

[Andrew]

Yeah. For me, I don't know that. I don't know that I have a ranking that's cowardly of me. Excuse me.

[Craig]

Yeah. Wow. This is another reason why I'm Achilles is because I'm braverly.

[Andrew]

I do like your point about the like the kind of the adventure nature of large portions of the Odyssey, the way it engages with kind of a more you know, swashbuckling side of Greek myth. Like we get a lot more creatures and you know, things like that. What I do think is interesting about this one and how it intersects with Greek myth overall is that we get a lot more conflict between the gods and a bit, you know, get more Olympus drama, a lot more world building.

[Craig]

In this one there's a lot more.

[Andrew]

World building and some of that is coming through. You know, this guy died and here's his backstory. But some of it is, you know, we're gonna trick Zeus into, you know, sleeping with me so that he doesn't wreck this fight over here.

[Craig]

And some of it is like if a, if a human is really on one, they can't stab a God in the hand.

[Andrew]

Listen, the rules, they've changed, right? And this one is also a bit more for me, like. Yeah, it's not, it's not fun to think about like what it would be like to be in a ten year war and to just be stuck there in it and to be constantly losing people that you know, and to be away from your home.

[Craig]

Can you just imagine what an endless war. Can you, can anyone imagine an endless open ended war?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Weird that.

[Andrew]

I think that to me is like where I in, you know, really I'm grateful for this poem existing because like unfortunately that is a thing that mankind has experienced for a long, long time is just like the particular leaders making decisions that we are not all privy to and we have to live with the consequences of and the ways in which even after that has happened, we make our own decisions that often make our stations worse or little betrayals or little failures all obviously at the higher stakes of, of you know, the Trojan War. But yeah, and there's like, a little bit more. It's interesting to encounter so many different rifts, even though there's a lot of similarities between them. So many different rifts on family in this book that I think that is a little bit more of what's going on here than in the Odyssey. You obviously meet a bunch of.

[Craig]

I mean, the Odyssey is.

[Emily]

The Odyssey is about, like a family.

[Andrew]

And occasionally you, like, when he lands at different islands, you might meet a few like. Like, you know, royal people together. But this one, everybody's got a dad, A couple of people have moms. You know, there's like. There are more connections between people that map to your ordinary life. Myriad ways, right?

[Craig]

Yeah. Though, unfortunately, the way that most of the ways happen is like, we're learning all about how this guy has a wonderful mom at home, and it's because he's never going to see his.

[Andrew]

That's what I'm saying.

[Craig]

Because he's dying.

[Emily]

The cruelty of war.

[Andrew]

That's what it is.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know.

[Craig]

Yeah. No, if these. If the staying power of these books and the reason why we are still doing and reading new translations of them is because there is, like, something eternal about them, then, you know, this one is about how war doesn't change and the Odyssey is. And maybe this is another reason to like it more. But I think it's a little bit more about how the concept of home has been with us for a long time. Like just a place where you feel like you belong and need to be.

[Andrew]

There are versions of kindness in the Odyssey that. That don't. Do not exist here in the.

[Craig]

Yeah. Though there are versions of kindness and, like, honor and stuff here that Also true that multiple, like, international organizations exist to try and enforce in modern conflict. Yes.

[Andrew]

And it's just, I think academically, too, it's interesting to engage with this thing called the Trojan War with, as you said it, the poem begins after it started and ends before it ends. It's an interest from a. Like, what other types of stories can you tell contrasting with the Odyssey? That's interesting, too.

[Craig]

Well, it does. It does keep the focus on the people who are fighting the war instead of, like, the war.

[Andrew]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Which I do think is like something we struggle with. Talking about historical conflict.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So. Well, that's all the stuff that we have to say about that. I'm sure we have no other thoughts. Thoughts.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Andrew]

We won't have any.

[Craig]

I think we've. I think we have said everything that is possible to say about this, like, 3,000 year old.

[Andrew]

We got it all.

[Emily]

We are typical classic, overdue getting it all.

[Andrew]

We are talking about revisiting it in a little bit by reading the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller. That'll probably.

[Craig]

I think we'll end up doing that on the, the main, main feed in.

[Andrew]

Like a month or two probably. And then, Andrew, no better time than the present to talk about what we're doing next.

[Craig]

If, if the Iliad is about how war. War never changes.

[Andrew]

We didn't rehearse this.

[Craig]

No, we didn't. I just like, child care is its own kind of. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's its own kind of.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Eternal conflict.

[Andrew]

Put on my armor.

[Craig]

And what better way to talk about that, I think, than to read some books from the Babysitter's Club series by Anne M. Martin and various ghostwriters.

[Andrew]

Yes. We will be visited by ghosts who say read our books so we can go to Hades.

[Craig]

We are still. We have not come up with a name quite yet. We have a couple of ideas that I think have, have some promise to them. But I think right now the idea.

[Emily]

For the structure of the Babysitter's Club.

[Craig]

Long read project is for it to take. To be like a slightly shorter one, take like seven or eight months and to do a different book.

[Emily]

Like each of the Babysitters Club books.

[Craig]

Is kind of centered on a different one of the sitters and so to try and give every individual sitter a book and an episode.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

Yeah. And in doing that, I so in, in goosebumps. Yeah, I was, I was in more of a. More of an experts position in that. And, and this. I don't think either of us has like a deep grounding in the baby. The world of the Babysitters Club.

[Andrew]

No, I, I have ever been babysat. I've ever availed myself of a babysitter, but that's about all I've got.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I have watched a child, but I'm not, I'm not like, like babysitting. No, I haven't, I haven't babysat.

[Andrew]

I don't think I did much babysitting.

[Craig]

No, I was like sometimes when, when we were a little older and my mom and dad would be like gone for like an hour. You're in charge or something? I would be in charge. Yeah.

[Andrew]

I once, I once went over and like I was like middle school and my neighbor's family. Like my friend was gone. I don't know where he was. And he had two younger siblings and his mom was like Hey, I got run out for something. Can you just like be in the house while they're asleep? So I wasn't babysitting.

[Emily]

Mm.

[Andrew]

So you and I are going to come to this series with a lot of really informed opinions is what we're saying.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Great.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Emily]

That's what I like.

[Craig]

I've watched children, but I've never like, unionized about it, you know, Like, I haven't started an organization about it.

[Andrew]

Fair enough.

[Craig]

So, yeah, the Babysitters Club by Anne M. Martin.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we'll do an Episode 0 on the main feed, but expect the long reads to continue one until babysitter morale improves.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Thanks everybody for listening to this Stop Homer time series. We've knocked out the two Homers.

[Craig]

I think that's it. That's kind of Homer time. Yeah. Like if we, you know, we could return to some kind of myth under the aegis of Stop Homer time.

[Andrew]

Yeah, probably.

[Craig]

But that's the, you know, we've read all of the Homer that there is Stop Homer thing that. Yeah, like if, you know, I haven't done that for Stephen King. Haven't done. There's a bunch of authors who haven't read their entire body or that's kind of impressive.

[Andrew]

Good job us.

[Craig]

Yeah, we read all of the Homer that there is. Yeah, I think as far as I.

[Andrew]

Know, I think that, yeah, I mean that's. Somebody probably has a scroll somewhere.

[Craig]

But I mean, given that we don't really believe that Homer is a single author. It's kind of a, kind of a weight hand, wavy bit of something. But, but it's okay.

[Andrew]

We can, we can wave that hand and pat ourselves on the back with it.

[Craig]

I think we can take the W on this one.

[Andrew]

Yes. If you also want to send us a dub, send it to overdue podmail.com hit us up on social media. Overdue Pod, Blue sky, Instagram. That's the ticket. Theme song is composed by Nick Langes. Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show, where they go.

[Craig]

Overdue Podcast.com is our Internet website. Up there we have the schedule for regular episodes and also for the long read episodes when they, when they hit the main feed, which they always eventually do. Eventually. Yes. Patreon.com overduepod is our Patreon project. You can subscribe there, toss us a.

[Emily]

Couple of bucks, get access to these.

[Craig]

Episodes early to bonus episode like YouTube live stream recordings to our Discord community and then a few other things. Yeah, I think with the, with the Babysitters club episode is going to come like a light rejiggering of some of the Patreon stuff. We'll send some communications about when it happens. But again, patreon.com overdue pod. Your support makes the show happen, and there's no. Yeah, that is not an exaggeration. That is literally true.

[Andrew]

Mm. It is true.

[Craig]

I think that's it.

[Andrew]

Andrew, thanks again for reading the Iliad with me.

[Craig]

Oh, thank you again.

[Andrew]

My Achilles, my Patroclus, my Hector, my Priam. What do we say at the end of every episode of Stop Homer time?

[Craig]

You must not be a bird of ill omen in my house. To me, that was a headgum podcast.