#193 The Truth Behind Scaling a Successful Plumbing Business

Summary

Summary of Owned and Operated Podcast Episode #193: "The Truth Behind Scaling a Successful Plumbing Business"

Released on May 6, 2025

Hosts: John Wilson and Jack Carr

In episode #193 of the "Owned and Operated" podcast, hosts John Wilson and Jack Carr engage in an in-depth discussion about the challenges and strategies involved in scaling a successful plumbing business. Drawing from their personal experiences and industry insights, they explore the critical elements that contribute to sustainable growth, focusing on lead generation, sales processes, and fulfillment operations.

---

1. Introduction to Scaling Challenges

The episode kicks off with John reflecting on the rapid expansion of his plumbing business, which grew to include seven technicians and a manager. Despite a full schedule of leads, the business faced significant operational inefficiencies that led to financial losses.

John (00:26): "We have so many operational holes that we can't plug them all. We're just losing money."

2. Misconceptions: Lead Issues vs. Sales Issues

A major theme is the common misconception that businesses struggling to grow lack sufficient leads. John and Jack argue that the real issue often lies in the sales process rather than lead generation itself.

Jack (04:27): "When you say operational holes, can we boil it down a little tighter? Like, you had leads so you weren't selling the leads."

3. Pricing Strategy and Market Understanding

The hosts delve into the importance of having a robust pricing strategy that aligns with market standards. They share their experience with "Price Book Pro" and emphasize that understanding market dynamics is crucial for setting competitive prices.

John (04:31): "It was understanding the market issue, mixed with not having the right people in the right places."

4. The Critical Role of Options in Sales

John and Jack highlight the necessity of providing customers with meaningful options during the sales process. They caution against offering irrelevant or low-quality options, which can confuse customers and hinder conversions.

John (13:18): "The problem is with the options. It's complicated to train somebody who doesn't understand the pathway of options."

5. Organizational Structure: Separating Sales and Technical Roles

The discussion shifts to organizational structure, with the hosts advocating for specialized roles within the business. They argue that separating sales functions from technical installations enhances efficiency and allows each team to excel in their respective areas.

Jack (29:48): "In the plumbing company it's a two, you know, the plumber is the salesman and the installer. I just don't think you can."

6. Enhancing Average Ticket Sales

Through effective sales training and the presentation of valuable options, John and Jack have successfully increased their average ticket sales from approximately $300 to over $2,000 per service call. This significant rise underscores the impact of strategic sales processes on business profitability.

John (26:33): "Our average ticket in plumbing now is in the twos, and our average ticket Electric is almost 3, sometimes in the threes."

7. Fulfillment: Hiring and Compensating Installers

Fulfillment, or the execution phase of service delivery, is identified as another crucial pillar of business growth. The hosts discuss the challenges of hiring skilled installers and the importance of compensating them well to ensure high-quality work and reduce callbacks.

Jack (32:13): "When we really started growing, like, we took a tech first mentality, which has made retention easier."

8. Three Pillars of Business Growth

John and Jack consistently refer to "three pillars" essential for scaling a plumbing business:

• Lead Generation (Inside Operations): Encompassing marketing, branding, call center operations, and dispatching.
• Sales: Focusing on sales training, presenting quality options, and optimizing sales processes.
• Fulfillment: Ensuring high-quality service delivery through skilled and well-compensated installers.

Jack (34:34): "So the three pillars are lead, sales, and fulfillment. If you can't manage those well, you can't scale."

9. Best Practices and Tools

The hosts emphasize the importance of utilizing tools like ServiceTitan to track performance metrics such as the number and quality of options presented by the sales team. They stress that having a robust system to measure and manage these aspects is crucial for sustained growth.

Jack (21:49): "ServiceTitan will say jobber. I'm sure they all say, hey, here's the number of options that this person presents on average."

10. Concluding Insights

In conclusion, John and Jack reiterate the importance of a structured approach to business growth, emphasizing the need to focus on the three pillars without neglecting any aspect. They encourage listeners to adopt specialized roles and invest in training and compensation models that drive performance and retention.

John (36:19): "But sometimes you just got to figure it out. Yeah, he's got to figure it out. And I think having that framework is a really good framework to go off of."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John (00:26): "We're just losing money."
• Jack (04:27): "You had leads so you weren't selling the leads."
• John (13:18): "The problem is with the options."
• John (26:33): "Our average ticket in plumbing now is in the twos."
• Jack (34:34): "So the three pillars are lead, sales, and fulfillment."

---

Conclusion

Episode #193 offers a comprehensive exploration of the essential elements required to scale a plumbing business successfully. By addressing misconceptions about lead generation, emphasizing the importance of sales processes, and underscoring the value of effective fulfillment, John Wilson and Jack Carr provide actionable insights for business owners in the home service industry. Their emphasis on specialized roles, strategic training, and competitive compensation models serves as a practical guide for achieving sustained growth and profitability.

For more insights and actionable advice on growing your plumbing, electrical, or HVAC business, visit www.ownedandoperated.com and subscribe to future episodes of the "Owned and Operated" podcast.

Transcript

[A]

I'm going to reiterate that for everyone listening. He said his average ticket in plumbing is $2,000 plus. These are real numbers, by the way, people.

[B]

I just got an option for a water heater, like a tankless. Like, they came in to talk about our toilet, and I have a $7,000 estimate on my table right now. And it's because the guy didn't explore.

[A]

A lot of people think that they have a lead issue, but they don't have a lead issue.

[B]

They actually have a sale sales issue.

[A]

Welcome back to owned and operated. I don't know what to do with my hand studio. I'm in a studio beautiful with people. So, John, what's going on, man?

[B]

I think if you can get used to the fact, like, we built a studio, obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think if you can get used to the fact that this is like a. Almost a television. Ready. And there's three giant lights pointing in.

[A]

Your face and multiple cameras, multiple lights. I feel like a superstar.

[B]

I mean, you basically are a superstar in my mind. Well, you're from big city Nashville.

[A]

Very Z list. If there's something below Z list, like, that's where I'm double Z.

[B]

They're like, double A.

[A]

Like, you have to go through the Alphabet twice.

[B]

Yeah, that tracks.

[A]

This is cool, though. This is really neat studio, man. I'm excited to. To be here.

[B]

Yeah, this. This is fun. So today we're talking how to grow your plumbing business.

[A]

How to grow it. I'm in the middle of growing it, so I'm very interested.

[B]

I was actually really hoping you would teach.

[A]

Yeah, I'm present.

[B]

I could listen.

[A]

I mean, we're in a fluctuation mode where we had to. We scaled up really heavily. So long story short, and I feel like this is the. The actual path that a lot of owners go through.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is we started plumbing. It did amazing. One guy, commission only structure.

[B]

I'm remembering the first couple. I. You're like, dude, I sold the tankless. My first 10 minutes.

[A]

I sold. We sold two tanklesses today. Or like, we have a tankless and filter, and just like, the margins on those things are crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're still figuring out. So then we get. Okay, this is awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Plumbing is everything I wanted and more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we ramped. We ramped and got up to seven technicians and a manager. Six technicians and a manager. So seven people total. And then what we found was we have so many operational holes that we can't plug them all. We're just losing money. And so we started like looking at gross margin and in, specifically in the department. And like, we had the leads, it was October of last year. Like, we had full schedules on the board, but we were just money everywhere out, not in. And so we said, okay, we need to reduce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think I actually called you a little bit before that. We. We cut construction, remember? Yeah, you told me, jack, just do it. And I went, you're right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not going to take six months. It needs to take one week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We cut a construction and then we then rolled back everything and said our focus now until we get the systems right is profitability.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we need to get net up, we need to be profitable, and then we'll scale because we have systems in place. So that's what we're in the process right now. Still difficult, but moving in the right direction.

[B]

At Wilson, we've saved a stupid amount of money by having AI help out with our call center. And the best tool out there that's making that happen is Evoca. So look, you've probably heard the buzz about AI CSRs. They seem to be everywhere, but not all AI CSRs are created equal. And Evoka seems to rise to the top every time. They answer every call in the first ring, they sound just like a real person and they don't take breaks. But here's what makes Evoka really interesting. In the real world, if a caller's getting heated, like they're getting frustrated or annoyed, evoke a nose. It hears the tone, emotion, and hand the call to a real human. So you can still save that call. And this has been huge for us here at Wilson. There's no more churn or people yelling representative into the phone. And the back end is tight. It directly integrates into Servicetitan at the gold tier level. That means it can handle reschedules, check, check arrival times and look up customer info. It even helps with capacity planning. It's basically a CSR with perfect memory. On top of all that, it consistently makes our team better. We get post call analytics, auto tagging, and coaching tools so that no matter who's on shift, we deliver for our customers. If you're curious, go to Evoca, AI Avocado, oca AI, book a demo and tell them owned and operated sent you. When you're saying operational holes, can we boil it down a little tighter? Like, you had leads so you weren't selling the leads.

[A]

Correct. So we. We didn't have our pricing structure. Correct.

[B]

Okay, so it was at a. Where'd you get the price book?

[A]

So we went pricing internally. Then Price Book Pro.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it wasn't a Price Book Pro issue. It was understanding the market issue.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mixed with. I think the big mix, though, was not having the right people in the right places and not being able to train them fast enough on sales process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's where the issue came into place. Right. Is I know that there's people selling. I was talking to someone in Denver today who's selling $5,000, 40 gallon tank units. And I'm going, okay. So like people buy that in certain markets. Our market doesn't support that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I know that our pricing wasn't that much higher than market average is maybe 12, 13%. And then after discounts for memberships and all this stuff, we have Hoffman in our market. I know what he's pricing.

[B]

What's he sell at? 44.

[A]

I think he's somewhere in the 3000 range. High 2000s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we weren't far off. We were a little bit under. So that was my goal, was like Hoffman Jack, not as much value, but not as much price. And so we tried pushing that and we couldn't get belief from the team to be like, this is something that we can sell. This is something we can do.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

And so we tried training, we tried the whole nine yards. And I think there was just a little bit of cultural cancer that took over. So we called that retried. And now we're, we're having less of those issues and. But still. Issues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're trying to work them. They're actually really similar issues too. Like we sell IQ all day, every day. Iq, Indoor air quality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In my opinion, and maybe this is a great question for you, is I feel like water quality should be an easier sell than indoor air quality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. There's tests that show that you have chlorine in your water. You're drinking it, it's going on your skin. Like you can do the finger chlorine swirl test. Like, it's a very visual sales pitch that I believe, at least for me personally, I would rather have better water quality than air quality. I can't see my air, I can't smell my air. Unless it's like baking, I'm cooking bacon or something. But I just don't see the difference. But we sell indoor air quality every day, all day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because my H Vac guys are on top.

[B]

They get it.

[A]

They get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Plumbers. I can't get them to get it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can't get them to get it. I whispered that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They know the pitch because it's the same pitch. It's like, hey, you, do you do the full evaluation? You show them, you ask, you ask the right questions up front. Hey, do you have any problems with your drinking water? Do you taste anything? Do you feel like your hair is a little bit brittle? You know, any kind of feel on your skin? All those kind of items. We also saw a reduction in, like when we, we switched out of the original model. Like, we saw reduction in tanked, tankless conversions, which was another like, hey, you're having issues with sales pitch. Because the pitch for a tankless conversion should also be an easier pitch, in my opinion. You pay double, triple the price, but you get a 20 year unit which is three times longevity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As well as hot water on demand and as much as you want and more efficient. So like it's a no brainer, I think, for most people. Am I wrong in that thinking?

[B]

I mean, no, I, I think that tankless makes a lot of sense. We, we only move like one tankless a week, so that's probably like a sales problem on our end. I think I'm going to, I'm going to deconstruct this.

[A]

Bad. Vomited all of that.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a lot. But I feel like if we, I want to make sure we cover like the core principle because I think this.

[A]

Is a big way to actually grow. Is. Right. You get a lot of people out there that are selling $300 average tickets. It's very hard to grow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On $300, an average ticket. Because you're not offering anything else.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, I think it's, I mean, not impossible, but. Yeah, I mean, we should always be optimizing for the larger job. And I think that's a part of what makes H Vac so attractive to people. And that's why we continue to, you know, H Vac's been a challenge for us, but that's why we continue to push on. It is because the average ticket's $13,000. Like the juice is worth the squeeze. And you can build $100 million H vac company just because like 12,500 versus $1,000 average ticket and something else. It's a really big difference.

[A]

Yeah, definitely.

[B]

So when we, when I'm gonna, I'm gonna go into like, I'm gonna zoom back a couple steps and then I think we can like dive in.

[A]

Sweet.

[B]

So I've always talked about our three step, you know, lead sale fulfillment.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, so I. The topics, growing a plumbing company and all the problems it sounds like you're having is on the sales step. But we'll talk about all three steps real quick.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Just so we can nail it. So when you're opt. When you're growing any business, obviously you already know this, but like there's three things you need to be optimizing for. One's the lead. And there's a ton of stuff inside the lead. Like, are we marketing? Are we branding? What's our uniforms look like? What's our trucks look like? Do we have a website? Is our gmb? Like half of our shit that we talk about on this show is like the lead. And just call center booking, which is a other huge section that we talk about. And that's all the lead. Everything to do with pre appointment, pre visit, that is the lead.

[A]

Which it's interesting sometimes too, because I think a lot of people think that they have a lead issue, but they don't have a lead issue.

[B]

They actually have a sale sales issue.

[A]

So, like when you look at how many leads a plumber should have on their schedule per day, what are you looking at is like an optimal amount?

[B]

Yeah, we've fluctuated over the years. I think right now we're at three.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that seems to be a good number. Now granted, it'll modulate depending on demand. Either demand or someone's running behind or we let sales drive the bus a little bit on that and we've handed over some of our dispatching to like a software. So some of those day to day tactical decisions I think have just gone away. But I think that we're at three. We used to optimize for four.

[A]

Yeah, that's where we're at. We're out. We try to optimize for four a day.

[B]

Yeah, three seems to be what I see happen. And I mean, numbers are really high. Like we were. Yeah, obviously we're here in my office. We're here. We didn't participate in the daily huddle today, but right now our plumbing department is giving yesterday's numbers. $69,000. Sold. We actually, I had one guy sell our entire plumbing budget yesterday, which is 35,000 a day. So like one guy. It was amazing. So, yeah, they're on. They're on high over there. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so the first step is sale or Sorry. The first step is lead. And the lead is like everything to do pre appointment. So that's going to be your. Like, how do you, how do you get a Lead. How do you book the lead? And how do you handle the lead before you get there? So it's going to be marketing, call center, and dispatch. Those three disciplines are all the lead. The next step is the sale, which I totally agree. Like, we're at the workshop right now and a lot of people have opinions on, you know, current macro. And I'm like, respectfully, that's how, you.

[A]

Know John's going to say something maybe a little bit mean. Yeah. Just disrespectfully, maybe, because that's. That's fixes it all.

[B]

Respect.

[A]

Respectfully.

[B]

With respect, sir, you're $5 million plumbing company and people will always need to ship. Like, the macro environment should not impact you that much. Like, it just doesn't. It just doesn't.

[A]

Every house has a toilet.

[B]

Every house is a toilet. It just doesn't matter. So, yeah, I think it's kind of a. I think it's kind of an excuse, but. So this, the sale is obviously the next part. And how do we go out and we sell the thing and there's a ton baked into the sale.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We've talked about call by call, but like, hey, when. When we. When we identify a problem. And we're a lot more on top of this now than. Than we typically happen. I wish I could pull up. I got to get the computer so I can start pulling stuff up. But it'd be. We're looking at one of three things. It's an options problem. Like, either the options are bad or the number of options is bad. Two totally different problems. And we can talk about it. Conversion rate's bad. But usually if conversion rate's bad, it's because options are bad. And then average ticket's bad. But if average ticket's bad, it's because options are bad. So we hear. All of our focus is on options. And there's even inside options. You know, I think there's a. Which sounds like that might be some of the challenge you're having.

[A]

Yeah, I'm actually convinced that's the problem we're having.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot to it. It's really. It's actually kind of complicated.

[A]

It's very complicated. It's. It. Well, I'm going to step back. It's not complicated. What's complicated is training somebody who doesn't understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The pathway of options. Because. Right. Options is a simple process.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I'm saying this like I have this dialed in. So everybody knows that I'm the one who brought up this problem. But I know the.

[B]

No, we all heard your rant earlier.

[A]

I know what the fix is. And the fix is, hey, you need to be earning those options to start.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. You need to show up, you need to ask the right questions. You need to listen to the customer.

[B]

Yeah. Which is you earn the right to offer.

[A]

Yeah. You earn the right to offer. And that's through asking questions, talking with the customer. Being a human being that cares about the systems in someone else's house. And I think that's where we miss sometimes or where we're currently missing is we get this idea. And a lot of plumbers get this idea in their head of, I'm not going to opt for the upgrade because either I don't believe in the upgrade or it's too expensive up an upgrade and they're putting their pocketbook or they're putting themselves into the customer's pocketbook. And that's one of the big misconceptions. I think they shouldn't be doing that. They need to step back and say, this is truly what's a win, win, win a win. For me, as a tech, I'm offering the best options. I'm listening to the customer. I'm going to make the most money. I'm offering the person what they really should be getting the final fix or.

[B]

At least knowing about.

[A]

Or at least knowing about that.

[B]

I think that's the thing that drives me nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is like, I am more like our customers than I am our field team. I have very little time. I am very happy to spend money to solve a problem so I don't have to deal with it again. And if someone comes out and I. And like, I don't have time to meet people in the middle of the day to, like, I'm, you know, running a thing here. So if I do have to meet someone and like, it's only one option and it doesn't actually fix it, it's very annoying because I took time out of my day, which is very hard for me to do. Like, I skip lunch most days, I pick up my kids probably too late and I'm here too early. Like, it's hard to take time to go meet somebody.

[A]

You're optimizing for the solution, which is what you want. You want a permanent fix. You don't have to deal with this problem.

[B]

You know what my options are? Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are all the different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, let me choose. And if I'm willing to be annoyed, then great. But I'm probably not.

[A]

Yeah. And so I say the same thing. So one of our training techniques is trying to draw parallels. We say, if you show up at the Jiffy Lube and they do your oil, they do your filter, and they say, hey, we noticed your brakes are at 1cm, like, they're about to go out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you want them to give you that option and say, like, hey, just so you know, we actually don't even do brakes. I'm just letting you know that your brakes are going out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or, hey, we do do brakes. And, like, you can get an appointment over here. It takes 15 minutes. But I would want to know that my car's brakes are going out in that case, or that my headlights are out or any of the other things that can happen on a mechanical system.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like knowing that there's an issue there on my system, which is equivalent to your entire plumbing in your house. I want to know about that. And then I can make those choices on the back end of, I'm going to go to a brake shop. I'm going to get done here because I have 15 extra minutes. And I think we miss that sometimes because we're there too focused on, like, I don't want to offer this really expensive thing.

[B]

Well, I think what's kind of funny, this used to come up a lot more in call center, but our call center manager's done an awesome job of, like, getting everyone to understand. But, like, I think booking rate and I think conversion rate in the field. So booking rate, like, when the call comes in, what percentage of calls do we book?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then conversion rate, like, of the calls we book, how many convert into a sale? And I think that those are, like, almost comical numbers to talk about, because if. If someone's calling, they want us at their house. Like, that is why they're on the phone. Like, people don't want to be on the phone. So if they're calling a plumber, they need a plumber. They want a plumber. Like, so booking rate should be very high.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they are calling because they want you and immediately. Yeah. So it's sort of like, you know, we used to have these, like, discussions with call center and training. They're like, well, they didn't want anybody out. And it's like, that doesn't make sense. Yeah, they called us. They want someone out. Like, what you're saying, it. It makes no sense at all. And then conversion rates, the same thing. It's like they took time out of their day to understand the options about this problem. Conversion rate being at 40% doesn't make sense. Like, they, they need, they want this solution or need this solution and they're investing their time into finding out what it is. Like, a low conversion rate doesn't make it. They're like, they didn't want to do anything. They just took time out of their day. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah, like, they obviously want, they took.

[A]

Off work to, to have you come to their house to listen to what you have to say is wrong with their system. And then they said, I'm good.

[B]

Yeah, my toilet doesn't flush, I'm good.

[A]

I'm just not going to touch it.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's this irrational. I think we preload excuses, but it's this irrational. And I think it's because we have so many, like, repetitions every day of like, I see three customers a day, 20 customers a week, whatever it is. And I, I talked to 50 customers today. And so I feel like we get these reps in our head and we're just like, oh, they didn't want anything. It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Of course they wanted something. That's why they're talking to us. But I do think it is a little complicated to figure out what people want and I think that is what the issue is. That's what takes a little bit of time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're really grateful to be a part of nexstar and part of this is like part of their nexstar process. But in certain path had something really similar to. So, like when you walk in, like, how do you set the agenda for the call? I'm sure there's a million different ways to set the agenda. We just have to be certain path and next to our members. But the first couple, like, in the first 15 minutes, you sort of take control of the call. So you like reset control and you're like, hey, before we go look at that thing, let's just talk for a second, talk about what we're going to do today. That we were all aligned should take a minute and then either through physically walking around and like examining the stuff and like, hey, let's check this other thing before we do this. We're going to check water pressure. You can also just do it with questions like, hey, how many people live here? Do you get enough? Whatever. And for nextar, it's called the Explore step.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So a lot of our training is on the nexstar Explore step, which is exploring the problem so that you can Then go to present options. I remember I told you this story, I think of the company we secret shopped at one time. I'll repeat it just because it's hilarious. So we secret shop companies like, I don't know, once every six months or something. And we're just always wanting to improve. So you know, seeing how people do it is helpful. So we had this company out and the guy who came actually interviewed for a job with us like a month before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we, we ended up turning him down. So that was kind of funny. We, he didn't recognize us because we sent someone random. But so he goes in and he, he's there to like look at a toilet or something. It's like, ah, my toilet's broken, whatever, need an option for it. And he like walks, he walks, walks in, looks at the toilet, goes out to his truck and he comes back in with like paper written options. And like one of them's like a tankless. One of them is a 50 gallon water heater and one of them's a toilet. And one of them was like a service call or a membership. It was something like non, nonsensical. And it was just such a ridiculous, it was like, it was so ridiculous. I immediately got a text being like, yeah, so this is what happened. And I just got an option for a water heater like a tankless. Like they came in to talk about our toilet and I have a $7,000 estimate on my table right now. And it's because the guy didn't explore, he didn't ask questions, he didn't talk to them, he didn't.

[A]

What's the mix? Like the guy didn't explore. But also he has an initiative from his management team that says you need to provide wire flower options or options no matter what.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so he, he, rather than doing the correct job and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And asking and going through the process, he skips the process, does the four options. They're sitting on your table and it burns the customer.

[B]

This was such a big learning curve for us maybe two years ago. Cause it was the same thing. It was like, oh, we need four options. And the thing is you can measure number of options. Again, I wish I could pull stuff up next time I'll bring my laptop. But you can pull like you can just report on that. So it's very easy.

[A]

Service titan.

[B]

Yeah, service titan will say jobber. I'm sure they all say, hey, here's the number of options that this person presents on average. And that's one of our. That's a guiding metric for us. So if someone's performance is down, their options are down like 9 out of 10 times. So we look at that a lot. But we were requiring three options. So the options we would get is like, okay, well, so option number one is the service call. 89 bucks. It's option number one. Option number two is monthly membership. Or it's like the job that I came here for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then option number three is the job with a membership.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those were the options. And it's like, well, like, what am I supposed to do with that? Like, that's not any. That's one option. Like you were, you know, we're, we're missing the point. So we hit the quantity. We didn't hit the quality.

[A]

Yeah. And so what do you say? Because I know there's, there's people listening, that if they haven't tuned out already, they're going, oh, but I mean, you just. How do you, how do you get more options? Right. They call you in for a cartridge on a sink.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how do you get more options? That doesn't make any sense. They said water heaters, fine, everything's fine. No other options. How do you train your techs to move past that Objection. And conduct the full evaluation to grab those options?

[B]

Yeah. So for, for. Well, first off, cartridge in a sink, you've got the repair, you have the replacement of the upgrade. So that's pretty straightforward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So like, I can replace the cartridge, I can replace this faucet, like kind. Or I can upgrade it to this bougie one with a pull down handle and, you know, pick a thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that one's actually really easy. And you can do that with most repairs. I think it's more complicated when you run into like pinhole in the pipe.

[A]

You know, outdoor hose bib.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's a good one. It's repair, replace, and then we generally do. If this one's out, you'd have water treatment.

[B]

Or maybe you add in a hot bib or like you can do a few different options there.

[A]

Yeah. The one we, we push on very hard is when we get cartridge issues, we say, hey, we have to check.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The water pressure. Because a lot of times cartridges go out because of prv.

[B]

Yeah, we track. Yeah. Water pressure is a thing around here.

[A]

So water pressure is a thing where we are too. We get 120, 130psi regularly. Built for 80, built for 80, 120. Blowing things up. And they're. I don't know why you guys are just out here but we have to check your PRV and then sometimes we try to get under the house if there's an active leak or something like that. That's a very common one we, we try to do. Yeah, just answer the phone is one of those phrases that's always easier said than done. I know it was hard for me in my business because the phone always rings while you're out in the field trying to get something done or it's 8pm and you're trying to get your kids to bed. Well, I have the solution for you. I'm extremely excited today to announce quick staffers your go to solution for building a high performing cost effective customer service team. We are placing CSRs who have been pre trained on proven home service SOPs and scripts, the same ones that Wilson and I use in our business. For a limited time we're offering $500 off your initial placement cost for the first 10 signups. See link in the description below or head over to quickstaffers.com for more information.

[B]

Well, I think this is the whole point of call by call which we've never really done like a full like how to do this episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know our callback call managers like follow along to make sure options are good. And if I was going to sum up the job description of call by call, it's options like that is it like that's their job is to make sure we have good options that customers understand what they're buying and that we can install. So, so that's their job. So they're following along with pictures, they're talking on the phone with text. Like hey, before you go and present these options, let's just talk about it real quick. I saw this. I don't think you had this on your notes. Like let's add that in. Or I see an option here that maybe you didn't. Uh, and this is what it is.

[A]

Yeah, I, we're trying to install that in a meaningful way because I, I, I could see where it really drive the bus.

[B]

Yeah, it, it, it does a lot.

[A]

And so are your call by call local? Overseas?

[B]

Yeah, they're local. Yeah. Office. Yeah.

[A]

In the office.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And is it, do they have a different position the rest of the time? Are they like a service manager or is or is that their own role?

[B]

That's their job. Yeah, that's their job.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean that's where part of where we, we run into some difficulty is like how do you hold that extra headcount the idea is they should drive the revenue with that.

[B]

But, well, with, you know, with option. And this is again, how we do stuff. We do. I don't know that we've ever done a full breakdown of our sales install either. But because of the way we do call by call and because of the way we do sales install, like it's meaningful, you know, our average ticket.

[A]

Yeah, we climb.

[B]

We, Our average ticket used to be like 1100 bucks or 900 bucks, which is still good. But like our, our average ticket in plumbing now is in the twos, and our average ticket Electric is almost 3, sometimes in the threes.

[A]

I'm going to reiterate that for everyone listening. He said his average ticket in plumb is $2,000 plus.

[B]

Yeah. For, for March, which is down season for us. Our average ticket in plumbing service was 2050and our budget was 1900. So we beat budget by 150 bucks. It was a really big one.

[A]

These are real numbers, by the way, people.

[B]

Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. I'm a real human.

[A]

This is real life. Because that's not anywhere close to our average tickets are. And most people, I think I haven't.

[B]

Heard many companies that run an average ticket like ours, but we also run a pretty different structure. So I don't know. I think that's a big part of it.

[A]

Yeah. And so we went over, so, yeah.

[B]

So lead. Yeah. So when you're growing back to. We're growing a plumbing company here. So we've got lead, which is everything pre appointment. How are we marketing? How are we branding our trucks? What's our uniform? What's our, is our call center booking? Are we running SEO? Did we dispatch? Like, how do we do that? How do we think about that? And the whole thing that touches the pre. Lead and we actually, I, I, I know I've said this before, but I believe so strongly in this like three pillar of, of business that we reorganized the whole company to follow suit in this. So the verticals. And I think this is just mentally for me, it makes sense, but it seemed to drive the business. I mean, we are up a lot. But so like the, the lead is like a whole section of the business. We call it inside operations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So call center and dispatch are inside operations and they're managed by one leader.

[A]

Yeah, it's a department, essentially.

[B]

Yeah. It's a vertical and then sales is a vertical managed by one leader with four sales managers. The callback calls 50 reps and then install is 50 installers managed by three install managers, one director at the top. So we believe so strongly in this like three pillar thing. And to me the, the answer in how do you grow any, any business? Plumbing, H vac, consulting, accounting, like it's all the same thing. Where are you going to get the lead, how are you going to sell it and who's going to fulfill the work? But yeah, for plumbing it's I think really relevant. So yeah, so the sale is like, what's our sales training look like? What's our quality of options? Are we talking about what they should be doing and what I find? And this is just me, obviously the whole industry disagrees, but I really find it challenging to hold like a conventional service tech accountable to sales if he's also doing install. Because then you've got sales, which is like call center dispatch marketing, like a lot going on in there. And then in a normal plumbing company it's a two, you know, the plumber is the salesman and the installer. And I just feel like that's really hard to like, how do you train somebody to do all of that? Like realistically, how do you train someone to be a master craftsman that has like no callbacks and like really knows his stuff in a labor shortage? Like, how do you find that human being when everyone else is looking for him? That can also drive top of your business numbers. And I just don't think you can.

[A]

Specifically too because those guys that can do the sales and can do that really great plumbing jobs, they're different human beings. Well, they go and they run their own company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because then they all pick up as the business side. And generally that's what you see is like, I'm really good at sales, I'm really good at plumbing, I'm gonna go start my own thing. And so they're high achievers to be able to get.

[B]

And then they come back six months later because they miss the first pillar, which was how do you get a lease?

[A]

Yeah, they missed the business side, but yeah, I'm with you on that one. It's very hard to find someone who is an excellent.

[B]

Hold them accountable. Yeah, well, yeah, because when we're training, like obviously we're training on technical with our sales team, but we're really honing in on like, what's your output, what's your average ticket, what's your options, what's your conversion rate? And like those are the metrics that we measure by. And it would be really confusing to add in like, oh, well, you were really slow on this install and you ran into overtime and Your callbacks were whatever. Like, that's a lot.

[A]

Also kind of inefficient, too. Right. If you have somebody who's really, really good at something. I mean, the H vac market. I know this is about plumbing, but the H vac market is a great example.

[B]

Great example.

[A]

The.

[B]

Yeah. Everybody fights me on it, and then I'm just like, well, H vacging decades.

[A]

Like, yeah, you. They've. They've done it so much. So to the point where they've actually spun off a new position. They have their service, they have their installers, and they spun off a new position of comfort advisor.

[B]

Yeah. Which is selling tech. That's even another additional one.

[A]

Or. Yeah. Selling tech.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And installer for the same reason. It's. Hey, technicians are better if they're good at selling. They're good at the technical side. They understand the thing. The. The theories behind refrigeration and electrical troubleshooting. They're really good at this, but they're not very good at hucking units and cutting metal.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And the guys that love hucking units and cutting metal, some of the best guys around, that's what they love doing. They don't want to talk to a homeowner ever. They just want to show up, throw the package unit in, and get to the next one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then comfort advisors are a whole different beast of. They just love people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot. And so at the end of the day, I agree. I think that. That splitting that up in plumbing isn't. Isn't some kind of crazy idea that.

[B]

Yeah. The industry disagrees. I think. I think we'll see more and more of it. We're the largest that we know of running this model.

[A]

I mean, we.

[B]

I made it up, like, six years ago. I've heard of some companies that are starting to try to run it at scale, which I think is really cool. But, I mean, it's a big part of how we got our average stick to be so high.

[A]

Yeah. Makes sense then. So the last piece is fulfillment. I know we're short on time, but on fulfillment, is there any. I mean, the real trick to fulfillment and growth is hiring just really good installers and compensating. Well, compensating well.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's been. That's been the hard part that took us a long time to figure out because, you know, when we. When we really started growing, like, a lot like, and this is nine years ago, you know, million Dollar Company, I didn't have leads figured out, but the first thing I tried to figure out was sales and like, how do I comp our team? And the target was, how can I pay this person 100, 150, $200,000 and how can I win? In the process of doing that, it's going to make recruitment easier. It's going to make retainment easier. So we took a tech first mentality, which we have mostly maintained. It gets a little more challenging like as you bring in like outside leaders in. But we've been able, whenever we haven't maintained it, we've been able to reset it pretty quick. So tech first mentality. It's really easy on sales to commission people like that. That's never anyone's like, hard part. Well, like, oh yeah, you just give them a piece of the pie. Like in sales, I'm like, yeah, totally. But, you know, we created an internal culture war for a while between sales and install because sales was doing kind of the easy job. They're selling and there's a lot to sales. I'm not dogging it. Like, sales is really important, but installers are the one that like, they catch a lot of and they should be paid very well to catch that. And so that was a real challenge for us to like, how do we, how do we get our. Like, our installers are so valuable. They drive all of the revenue for the business. Like, they're it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

They're what, Matt? Like sales matters a lot.

[A]

Sales don't matter until it's completed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're paid.

[B]

Yeah. So. But it's, it's easy to pay salespeople. Like, what. What percentage did you sell? What was your closing rate? Like, it's. It's easy to pay salespeople.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But installers was the hard part. So that was really the challenge for us is technical training. Like, look, if you're in plumbing, H VAC and electric, like, you're probably, you probably know how to install. Like, you know how to do this because that's what you grew up doing. But getting people paid really well has. Was. Was hard at first, but now we're. I mean, our installers make a ton of money, which is just awesome. And that's made it. That's made it so much better.

[A]

Yeah. Less callbacks because they, they're more invested in doing a great job. And I mean it makes sense. And so that. That's the fulfillment portion and.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Needs to happen.

[B]

And because you can hire the best because you can pay so much much money. Yeah. Yeah, it's. And which is great. And they deserve like they deserve every dollar. Like the installers are the best.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

So yeah, so when you're growing, so when you're growing a plumbing company, like hey, what's, what's leads? How do we get more? How do we book it? How do we dispatch it? Like honing in on those processes. Sales. Like what's our process for sales? Certain Path's got a great program. Nextar's got a great program. We're part of both. I know BDR's got something. Blue collar success.

[A]

Yeah, it's a million every best practices.

[B]

A million different ways to sell things. And they're. They' all great. They're all great. I think just have a structure, compensate your team well to sell. That's a big one. And if you can't compensate your team well to sell, like I, I'll have, I'll talk to people and they'll be like, yeah, we've got this plus 1% or plus 2% or whatever on sales. And I'm like, all that's telling me is that you're underpriced because you can't, you can't pay your team very well if like that's actually how the structure works. And then fulfillment. Just make sure that your installers get paid very, very well. Obviously there's some purchasing stuff going on in there too. But if you can pay really well, you're gonna get, you're gonna get great guys. And I think those are the three pillars for growing a plumbing company. At the workshop, we were at dinner last night and one of the attendees was like frustrated and they said, man, we just don't have this stuff figured out. Like I don't have this figured out. I don't have this top figured out. I don't have. Whatever. And it's like, well, yeah, no shit. Like if you had it figured out, you'd be three times your size. The stuff that you just said that you don't have figured out, I figured out at 21 million, 000 and like you're five. So yeah, no duh.

[A]

Yeah. Don't beat yourself up.

[B]

Okay. Okay. What I keep trying to tell everyone is this is my first year with a budget. We're going to do 30 this year. Like that's nuts.

[A]

And the amount of times that I've seen you do things sometimes revert partial, partially.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then redo something else. Like it is a trial and error process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean definitely come into it with intent. Don't just rip band aids and screw shit up. But sometimes you just got to figure it out. Yeah, he's got to figure it out. And I think having that framework is a really good framework to go off of. It's what we're trying to go off of. And like I said, I think I'm spot on with where we need our additional training at. And we're working on it. And so our hope is by the end of this year, another 100%, your growth in the plumbing department. Once we nail it, line that out.

[B]

Yeah. So sweet. Well, good discussion on how to grow plumbing business.

[A]

Plumbing plumb. Hopefully I come back and I'm happy about plumbing again.

[B]

Yeah. Plumbing is the best.

[A]

Like, just like. I love you again.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Right now.

[B]

You. My sweet child. My sweet baby.

[A]

I have an ugly baby right now.

[B]

Yeah, you do.

[A]

You need to grow up a little bit.

[B]

You do. It does. Yeah. If you like what you heard, check out Owned and operated dot com.

[A]

Great segue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like.

[B]

And subscribe for more stuff exactly like this. Jack crying about plumbing.