#215 Why You’re Not Getting Promoted.... and How to Fix It

Summary

Owned and Operated Podcast Summary: Episode #215 – "Why You’re Not Getting Promoted.... and How to Fix It"

Release Date: June 26, 2025
Hosts: John Wilson and Jack Carr

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Introduction

In Episode #215 of the Owned and Operated - A Plumbing, Electrical, and HVAC Business Growth Podcast, hosts John Wilson and Jack Carr delve into the critical topic of career advancement within the company Wilson. Featuring insights from Brandon Nyro, president of Wilson, the episode provides a comprehensive guide on understanding and navigating the promotion landscape both internally and externally.

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Internal Promotion Dynamics at Wilson

Brandon Nyro opens the discussion by highlighting the company's commitment to internal promotions, stating, “30 or 40% of the team has been promoted through the organization” (00:15). This statistic underscores Wilson's dedication to fostering growth from within, ensuring that leadership roles are filled by individuals who have risen through the ranks rather than being recruited externally.

Jack emphasizes the distinction between excelling in a current role and possessing the passion and skills necessary for leadership: “Do you have a passion to lead and do you have a passion to want to do more and take more responsibility? Because great success in your role doesn't automatically translate to great success as a leader” (00:15). This highlights the company's focus on not just performance but also on intrinsic motivation and leadership potential.

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The Emerging Leaders Class: Building Future Leaders

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing Wilson's Emerging Leaders Class—a 52-week program designed to equip employees with essential leadership skills. Jack describes the program as follows:

“It's a 52-week class so year-long. And it is intended to go through the 101s of leadership. Now it goes into depth from everything from emotional intelligence to just the basics of what's the difference between leadership and management” (10:33).

Brandon adds that the class is not limited to a specific trade but is inclusive of plumbers, HVAC technicians, electrical staff, and administrative personnel. The program focuses on universal leadership principles that can be applied across various departments, ensuring consistency in leadership style and approach throughout the organization.

Key Components of the Program:

• Emotional Intelligence: Understanding and managing emotions in a professional setting.
• Financial Literacy: Gaining a deep understanding of financial statements like P&Ls (Profit and Loss statements), with participants actively engaging in real-life financial analysis (11:06).
• Practical Application: Participants work on actual company problems, fostering hands-on experience and real-world problem-solving skills (12:39).

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Criteria and Process for Promotion

The hosts discuss the meticulous process behind selecting candidates for promotions. Jack explains the dual criteria: ambition and capability. “The capacity to do it is what I'm looking for. Do you want it is really what I'm looking for” (06:09). This ensures that those promoted are not only capable but also genuinely interested in taking on leadership roles.

Brandon shares insights into the transparency of the promotion process: “We have really matured. Like upward mobility inside the business, where there's more of a clear path now. I think where we need to get better is, like, displaying it” (04:07). Efforts are underway to make career pathways more visible to all employees through initiatives like the “future with Wilson” wall, which outlines potential career trajectories within the company.

Selection Process Highlights:

• Expressed Interest: Candidates must communicate their desire for growth and leadership opportunities.
• Problem-Solving Ability: Demonstrating the ability to identify and actively participate in solving company-wide issues is crucial.
• Commitment to the Program: The Emerging Leaders Class requires a significant commitment, including punctuality and active participation in challenging activities (13:03).

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Challenges and Areas for Improvement

Despite the robust internal promotion framework, the hosts acknowledge existing challenges. One such challenge is ensuring that employees are aware of and understand the available career paths. Brandon notes, “We had someone put in their resignation earlier this week to go to a position that we have and that we would have hired for” (06:50). This incident underscores the importance of clear communication regarding internal opportunities to prevent valuable employees from seeking growth externally.

Another challenge discussed is the transition to senior leadership roles. Jack admits, “It is 100% a weak spot. And to be honest with you, I really don't know yet” (23:35). The company recognizes the need to develop a structured approach to nurturing senior leaders, ensuring they possess the necessary skills and passion for higher responsibilities.

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Future Plans for Leadership Development

Looking ahead, the hosts brainstorm innovative ways to enhance the leadership development process. Brandon proposes a project-based approach, where cohorts within the Emerging Leaders Class tackle real, high-impact problems with allocated budgets. He suggests, “...let's work on it for 30 days? So like a month. And like that's one of the sections is like, hey, we have four weeks where we're going to work on it and like we'll hit it hard” (30:08). This hands-on method aims to reinforce learning through practical application, ensuring that leaders are not only theoretically prepared but also adept at implementing solutions in real-time.

Additionally, there are discussions around expanding the program to include senior leadership training, focusing on problem-solving at a strategic level. Jack adds, “Understand the true things. What is the reason behind it and what was the logic on the decision that was made?” (37:06), emphasizing the need for leaders to comprehend the rationale behind strategic decisions to effectively guide their teams.

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Promoting a Culture of Problem-Solving

A recurring theme in the episode is the emphasis on problem-solving as a catalyst for career advancement. Brandon states, “The fastest career accelerant that anyone can have in Wilson or in any business ever is how do I find the biggest problem or the biggest opportunity and say, hey, can I help you solve that?” (28:22). By encouraging employees to identify and address significant challenges, Wilson fosters a proactive and entrepreneurial culture that not only benefits the company but also accelerates individual career growth.

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Enhancing Transparency and Communication

To further support internal promotion, the hosts discuss strategies to enhance transparency within the organization. Brandon suggests updating the organizational chart regularly and making future plans visible to all employees: “Here’s our 12 month org chart. Here’s what we think it looks like start.” (38:20). Additionally, offering compensation ranges for different roles can provide employees with a clearer understanding of potential growth and the financial benefits associated with promotions.

Jack concurs, emphasizing the importance of understanding the “why” behind decisions: “They just understand the why. It’s not just a hey, do this because this is what you were taught type of thing. But understand the true things” (37:02). This deeper comprehension helps employees align their efforts with the company's strategic objectives, making them more effective leaders.

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Conclusion

Episode #215 of the Owned and Operated podcast offers a deep dive into the intricacies of career advancement within Wilson. By highlighting the company's commitment to internal promotions, the structured Emerging Leaders Class, and the emphasis on problem-solving and transparency, John Wilson and Jack Carr provide invaluable insights for employees aspiring to grow within the organization. The episode not only outlines the existing framework but also addresses challenges and proposes innovative solutions to ensure continuous improvement in leadership development.

Notable Quotes:

• Brandon Nyro (00:15): "30 or 40% of the team has been promoted through the organization."
• Jack (00:15): "Do you have a passion to lead and do you have a passion to want to do more and take more responsibility? Because great success in your role doesn't automatically translate to great success as a leader."
• Brandon Nyro (04:07): "We have really matured. Like upward mobility inside the business, where there's more of a clear path now."
• Jack (10:33): "It's a 52-week class so year-long. And it is intended to go through the 101s of leadership."
• Brandon Nyro (28:22): "The fastest career accelerant that anyone can have in Wilson or in any business ever is how do I find the biggest problem or the biggest opportunity and say, hey, can I help you solve that?"

For more information, visit www.ownedandoperated.com.

Transcript

[Brandon Nyro]

Today we're talking about how to get promoted. This is what career advancement looks like at Wilson, but also just to the external world. Here's how we think about recruiting leaders. 30 or 40% of the team has been promoted through the organization.

[Jack]

Do you have a passion to lead and do you have a passion to want to do more and take more responsibility? Because great success in your role doesn't automatically translate to great success as a leader.

[Brandon Nyro]

Welcome back to Owned and operated. Today on the show I have Brandon Nyro, president of Wilson. Welcome back. Welcome back.

[Jack]

Welcome back to round two.

[Brandon Nyro]

Welcome back. Round two. This will be good. Today we're talking about how to get promoted. So this is kind of a fun topic. We haven't done this yet, I think ever on the show. So the idea here, like who we're thinking about explaining this to or sort of sending this episode to is our own internal team. Hey, this is what career advancement looks like at Wilson. This is how you can think about getting promoted, but also just to the external world. Here's how we think about recruiting leaders.

[Jack]

I think it'd be cool too to talk like through the multiple tiers, right? Not even just leaders, but how do you work? Like when we're talking about apprentices, right? How do they fast track through.

[Brandon Nyro]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

All the way up and through into that leadership style. Because it's, it's very clear that the ones that have, especially from field side, like some of them have been apprentices with us. So that'd be interesting.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, I think so.

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[Brandon Nyro]

So where do you want to start?

[Jack]

I mean, why don't we start, like, right at the beginning? Right. Apprentice. Like, straight in the field, Baseline. Right.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So I guess for me.

[Brandon Nyro]

So I started today as an apprentice.

[Jack]

Oh, okay. I won't use names, but I'm going to. I'm thinking of somebody specifically on our Electric Team who's just, like, a shining example that.

[Brandon Nyro]

Right.

[Jack]

And he came in actually, even before apprenticeship, knew nothing about the trades at all. Pretty sure was in nursing or something along those lines. Medical field, but wanted to get in the trades. It was interesting to see someone like this because they were wildly motivated to learn. And they started the warehouse.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yes.

[Jack]

Was, you know, getting to know the parts, understanding how the trades operate in general. But from day one, he made it very clear. And I think that's kind of the underlining that you'll see across every. Every single thing we'll see is they made it very clear their goal was to progress through the company.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think something like we should get the actual percentage. I bet we could pull this report on Paylocity. But something like 30 or 40% of the team has been promoted through the organization.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And at this point, every single person on the team that is in a senior leadership position started lower. No one was recruited in just for that.

[Jack]

Yeah. Wow. That is kind of crazy. I'm thinking through every single person.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. It's kind of wild. Yeah. We've really. I would say in the last year and a half, have really matured. I still think we have a long way to go, but I think we've really matured. Like upward mobility inside the business, where there's more of a clear path now. I think where we need to get better is, like, displaying it.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Brandon Nyro]

Like putting it on the wall. Like, here's where. And we're actively working on that. Like your future with Wilson.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. We have, like, people in leadership that were apprentices three years ago.

[Jack]

Yeah. Yeah. And at the time, like I said, when it's not clearly documented, the part of the challenge is not only do they have to clearly want it, they have to very clearly say they want it. Make that known. Otherwise, there is not currently a very clear path to get there.

[Brandon Nyro]

Right.

[Jack]

So the ones that have to date have been very outspoken in their career ambitions. So it would be interesting to see what that looks like for someone who maybe doesn't know who to voice it to or how to voice that, but shows the clear intention or desire to grow. That'd be interesting.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. So I think the lesson there is like wherever you are inside the organization, like, is if you want to grow, communicate it.

[Jack]

Yes, communicate it. Make it known. And like you said, the cool part specifically with us is that our leadership team has come from there. So they've gone through this. So reaching out to your managers, super easy because they've also gone through that process.

[Brandon Nyro]

Almost all of our frontline leaders were promoted. Yeah.

[Jack]

So they can be the mentor.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

But with him specifically, right through the, the warehouse, understood the materials, got in the apprenticeship. And you know, I think in a stereotypical apprenticeship, you expect several years, maybe even four or five years to become a competent, whatever it is, electrician, plumber. But he excelled extremely fast through it. But that was again, intentional, intentionally asking to get out of the warehouse into apprenticeship and then routinely in the apprenticeship asking to do more, asking you to get hands on tools, asking his leads to step out of the way and let him do the installs. And they confirmed that he's doing it. Correct. It was very intentional, I think throughout that entire process of let me do more, show me how to do more, which I thought was really cool.

[Brandon Nyro]

I think I can think of a couple examples of an H Vac that, you know, their apprenticeship was under a year.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

To lead, which, like that is fast. That's fast.

[Jack]

But again, I think the underlying one of that pushed sound like a broken record. Means they pushed.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. We didn't have to push. Yeah. I don't pulled.

[Jack]

Yeah. I think the, the put the ladder out. Clearly it makes sense. But I almost enjoy that. You know, if it's, if the ladder's there, you still have to push. Right. But like the path on where to push is more clear. But I think that's always going to be what I'm going to look for is someone who's pushing for it. I don't want to have them pull somebody into it. I want them to have the desire to do it.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And then we'll. We'll show you the way.

[Brandon Nyro]

I think the alternative. And I'm just putting this out there and, and this is definitely one of the reasons why I think we can improve. Like, you know, we had someone put in their, their resignation earlier this week to go to a position that we have and that we would have hired for.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

If he had expressed his interest.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And so now we're obviously trying to like work on that and like, you know, bring him into that. But I think that is one of the benefits of like a well laid out ladder. Is like, hey, here's where you can go so that people understand, like, hey, I don't have to leave to go pursue my next career opportunity. Like, we have 170 people in this building. There is another seat that you can fill if you want to.

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. I think, again, the clear path of the ladder makes sense. Right. And how do you display that maybe even before somebody's looking? Just how do we make that known publicly that there is paths forward. Yeah, yeah. And the other part of that too is the kind of the beauty of like our task pay process. Right. Is if you don't want leadership, there's still a clear path to advance your life financially too. So it's not like the only path forward is management.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

You can move into just a highly positionated individual contributor.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Almost more so. I mean, that is the path to.

[Jack]

More. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on the. Through apprenticeship. Right. At that point, it's. There's really not a knowledge gap I'm looking for of, you know, do you have the capabilities to do so? It's the. It's a, you know, get a wanted capacity to do it. Do you want it is really what I'm looking for. Do you have the desire to grow? Do you have the capacity to grow? You probably don't get it yet because you don't really know what the position entails. But your desire to learn it is there. Yeah. I think where that starts to change is the lead into some form of. Some form or fashion of a management role. Right. Because then I'm looking for what are your instincts in the field?

[Brandon Nyro]

It's.

[Jack]

You kind of have to. You don't really get it yet, but you're doing things inadvertently that are clear displays of leadership or you're trying to understand. Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Like you're trying to be thoughtful about, you know, maybe like 101 stuff, but like, stuff you can control, like waste on jobs or like, are the apprentices needed or. Yeah. I think being a little thoughtful and maybe like stepping slightly outside of yourself is probably the best way to put that. Like someone that would be. I. I would not consider immediately for a leadership position, like if every single time I'm talking to them, they're only focused on their very narrow scope of vision. Like, that's amazing. Like you're going to be an amazing individual contributor. But if you can't see past just you.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

For the team or the company or the other teams that are impacted by whatever you're doing that day, that's that's hard to train.

[Jack]

Yeah, I agree. I think that's a clear indicator too from the leadership class that we have right now.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Is everybody in that group is that type of person to where it's very clear. You can see in the warehouse in the morning. Right. They're not just worried about their materials and their job. They're checking on their teammates. They're the ones pushing everybody out the door. They're the ones kind of being the rah rah in the morning. And they, it wasn't, you know, they weren't in the leadership class yet. They were, were chosen because of that. And they're the people making sure that the young ones who are fresh out of apprenticeship into Leeds, you know, feel good in the morning. They got their stuff, they're set up. Maybe they walk through a job with them, take a look through the photos with them, just kind of help them feel comfortable. They weren't asked to do that. And that to me is like that's a clear indicator of okay, you have leadership potential and you don't even, you may not even know that you're not doing that to, you know, display, you know, trying to show off your skill set to somebody. That's just a. You have a genuine passion to make sure that your team is set up for success and you're not even directly benefiting from it yet. Clear. Again, clear indicator from everybody we have in the class right now is exactly that.

[Brandon Nyro]

Let's talk about the emerging leaders class because I think that might help explain it a little bit. So what is the emerging leaders class? When did we start it? What's inside it? Why do we do it?

[Jack]

So we started it. The first cohort of that was in February of this year. It's a 52 week class so year long. And it is intended to go through the 101s of leadership. Now it goes into depth from everything from emotional intelligence to just the basics of what's the difference between leadership and management. So those are two very distinct portions and you have to be good at both of them. We get financial literacy, conversation, a deep understanding of what financial statements are. Things like a P and L. How.

[Brandon Nyro]

Does you guys are breaking out P Ls right now.

[Jack]

Yeah. And cool. Cause they get to touch a real life P and L. Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

I think you said they're like working with our May P and L. Yeah. And like some decision making. And what does here like we missed on gross margins. So like how would you touch materials?

[Jack]

Yeah, they're. They're actively Participating alongside our current leadership team in June, working on May's P and L. Okay, here was the issues and here's the resolutions we're putting in place in June to solve those. So it's cool that they get hands on with that. Right. It's not just a theoretical what would you do? Or a fake piano for something that we just kind of make up. This is what you actually participated in and the changes and the game plan you're going to come up with, you're actually going to feel in the field because you're putting it to play in real life. The classes, like I said, it's designed to get you up to speed. Now we have plumbers, we have H vac technicians, electrical admin staff in there as well too. The goal is not that they get trained specifically. A plumber is not only going to be a plumbing sales manager or an install manager. The course is designed that you could go through any one of our leadership positions. A plumber maybe gets into marketing in some way or in hr, whatever it might be. But the goal is that you are trained on the Wilson way and you are trained on the Leadership 101s that you can then apply to that role. So you still have to learn the individual role of sales versus install versus admin, whatever it might be, but nonetheless, the leadership that we expect, the style of leadership is the same across every department.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Financial literacy is. Is the same, but that gives you the framework to work off of. So when you do step into that role, you're learning the role itself and not also how to be a leader at the same exact time. So it's just a much easier onboarding process for them. They can get up to speed a lot faster.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, because. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What's it take to get in an emerging leader program?

[Jack]

Exactly. We talked about before. Right. Is I'm looking for people who are ambitiously pursuing it. From that point, we sit down and have a conversation about what are their career objectives, what do they want to do, where do they see themselves in two years, five years from now? I want to understand what their passion is. And understand, is it a monetarily based thing or is it a career development side? Because sometimes it's not always the right fit. Sometimes it is.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. I mean, if it's money like in sales or install, you know, individual contribution is the way to maximize the dollars.

[Jack]

Yeah. If your career is not specifically tied to I want to lead and I want to build a career around leadership, it might not be the best fit. You Know if it's monetarily based, like sales is, is the way to, to do that. But if it is, you know, hey, I want to build a career on leadership. I have a passion for leading, I have a passion for developing others. Great leadership is a good potential for that. Now we look outside of the looking for potential, but then we're also looking for that commitment. It is 52 weeks. It is at seven o' clock in the morning, it's in the middle of the week. I'm looking for the people who are willing to commit to that, be on time, be here every week, willing to learn and willing to participate in things that are very much outside their comfort zone. Every single week we cover a topic and every single week we are acting through role plays, live play scenarios, group, group work activities. So it's going to put them outside their comfort zone. So I'm looking for someone who's prepared to go through that process and kind of be vulnerable and talk about things that maybe they wouldn't normally talk about. Especially like for example, there's, I think it was almost 12 weeks worth of emotional intelligence topics that we go through. While that's frankly, you know, vulnerable, we're talking about how to actively communicate with your team, how to go through those kind of challenging situations that you might be presented with. When you're working through a individual contributing one on one, maybe they're going through something personally. How do you help navigate that so they can be successful in a career and in their personal life. Yeah. So requires people in that class to become open and vulnerable and have those conversations. So again, we're looking for people who are willing to explore that and be open to it from there. It's a conversation of a understanding that it's more than just your trade or the department you're in. This is an opportunity for you to look at things across the entire company. When we go multi location, right, it's no longer just plumbing or H vac or electric. It could be a general managing position. It could be in the warehouse. You know, we really don't know. But what are your career aspirations on that side? Is it just anything? Are you really tied to the trade? What are you looking for there? Um, we talk about timelines. It's what that looks like. You know, how no positions are guaranteed but looking for.

[Brandon Nyro]

I think this is the most delicate part. Yeah. Because what we've learned just historically is like if you don't handle it well, which I think we're handling it well now.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

But if you don't handle it well. Internal promotions are almost as the HR or from the executive team down are almost are more intimidating than external because people feel like they got passed over.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Brandon Nyro]

So you have to be really cautious. So the way that we've been approaching that now is, hey, if we're opening up a leadership position in house, like we will look at the whole company but our primary focus is the people that have been being trained for this. And if there are multiple then like that's when it gets a little tricky.

[Jack]

Yeah, 100%. And we're, you know, we're dealing with a lot of that right now too.

[Brandon Nyro]

Good things with three open or two now because we've placed one. But two open leadership positions.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And they have multiple candidates that are inside leadership training that could be a.

[Jack]

Good fit in the conversation we have there is, you know, you're all qualified for those roles by going through this. But what we're looking for is in this time who is the most qualified. Right.

[Brandon Nyro]

The current best fit.

[Jack]

Yeah. And especially when we're talking about multi manager departments. So.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yes.

[Jack]

You know, which.

[Brandon Nyro]

I don't think we've talked about that a lot on the show.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

But we're. Which. This is exciting.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Like, I think it's kind of cool. And one of the reasons I think it's cool is like companies we're like graduating up to the next layer. Right. Big boys now we're big boys and we're like, okay, plumbing service has two plumbing service managers and like H vac is about to have two and plumbing install is about to have two and just like the team size is bigger. So I think that's kind of fun. But yeah. Just wanted to explain that nuance.

[Jack]

Yeah. It creates that. Yeah. That kind of complexity there because you are going to bring somebody in. It's a multi managed department. So we're looking at the strengths of the existing manager and saying, okay, do we need to duplicate that or do we need to.

[Brandon Nyro]

Is there a gap? Yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

And in some of the cases right now we're seeing a need to complement those strengths where the person currently is extremely well suited for the technical side of the department. But what's needed is a stronger admin or leader side that can help with the development.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So then we're looking. Okay. Based off the pool of people who are interviewing great candidates. But which one fits that specific need of that development side better to complement the existing manager who's already succeeding.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And that's, you know, comes the conversation and what, what I promise to Them. And what we as a leadership team are committing to, that one on one class is we're going to be blatantly transparent with everybody and we're going to have those conversations before anything's announced. We'll go through the interview process, we'll talk about it, and if you're not selected, we're going to have a really frank and open conversation as to what happened, why, and things that we could look for. Yeah, exactly. So it's not that you're just kind of left to the weeds on there, but yeah, here was the decision and here's why and here's how we can help get you there when that next position opens, which I think, you know, because of the nature of the class, people have been open to those conversations and understanding those, which is nice. But I don't think that would have not, that would not have happened if we were not super transparent in the beginning as to, you know, just stating the obvious. Right. There are 10 people in this class. There are three positions open. If all of you apply, only three of 10 are going to fill these spots.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So inevitably someone's going to get a no. And we'll talk about that and we'll help you prepare for the next time. But everyone just has to be prepared that like, inevitably you're going to get a no. So let's talk about, about that. That's made a lot easier to work through. They're still not easy conversations. Right. Like you're. Yeah, someone's in that, that program to grow their career and this was a no. So it's turning that no into like, okay, let's build the path to make.

[Brandon Nyro]

Instead of a no, it's a not yet.

[Jack]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still challenging no matter what. And it's, it's hard too because, you know, there you get to know them so much better.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

So it's definitely a more emotional conversation.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So that's sort of, you know, what we've worked through is apprentice to tech, tech to frontline manager. Now I would say that we've also sort of seen this on the administrative side too, where, hey, we have people, individual contributors come in and call center or dispatch, and they've sort of worked their way into a super position. So in administrative we have Frontline, which is like call taker, dispatch, install, coordination buyer, you know, that type of thing. And then there's a super that manages a team of up to 3. And then above supers are managers. So, you know, how do you think about that sort of transition.

[Jack]

Yeah. The, the lead in super is kind of an interesting topic. Right. Because they're, they're still an individual contributor with additional responsibility to that. I think what becomes much more transparent there or much more obvious, I guess I'd say is what is their passion behind that? We have a call taker who's a great case in point where we pushed him further than he wanted to go right at the time. He's excited for it. I think we kind of talked him into the conversation, but we pushed him past his limits and he moved from a amazing call taker beyond that into a super role and failed at it. Right. Recognize that unfortunately too late success store ends up coming back and again being an amazing call center call taker on.

[Brandon Nyro]

That side and earning more. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like really like succeeding.

[Jack]

Yeah, like genuinely just succeed.

[Brandon Nyro]

Which is cool.

[Jack]

It was nice to see and it was awesome. Very glad to recover that. But one of those things that I'm looking for at that point there is the passion to want it and not necessarily me saying like, oh hey, you're really, really good at your role, so you also obviously have to be good at leading. It's again that do you have a passion to lead and do you have a passion to want to do more and take more responsibility? Because great success in your role doesn't automatically translate to great success as a leader. And I think we've, we've seen that play out several times. So it's always just kind of like a lesson in the back of my head as we're having those conversations of just because you're great at that doesn't mean the next step is the right decision.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah, I think so too.

[Patrick]

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[Brandon Nyro]

So if we've had four, five people now go from somewhere inside the organization, moved up to the senior leadership team, which is one boss as.

[Jack]

Nice.

[Brandon Nyro]

But. But how are you. How are you thinking about that? I mean, we've had a few managers promoted to directors.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Brandon Nyro]

For now.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And there's a lot going on there. So, like, what are you looking for when you're, you know, promoting into a senior leadership seat? Because often they don't have the skills yet.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

That we need. And we are not as dialed in or locked in on creating senior leaders as we are frontline leaders. And I think it'll come in time. We're just not there now.

[Jack]

It is 100% a weak spot. And to be honest with you, I really don't know yet. Because the team who has succeeded, succeeded by just sheer. Might use Ally as a great example, was another one who just made it abundantly clear her passion was to have my job. So, like, she was chasing the role I was in perpetually, which drove me to be better, which obviously she succeeded at doing.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So it was good. But, you know, if we're saying that that's not the best approach now because there's not, as, you know, at the time for her, that was the perfect opportunity and she succeeded. And seizing that opportunity is that path is clear now for somebody else who maybe has the same ambition, probably not as clear because the company's just grown so much. So frankly, that's something I'm still like, trying to understand is to what were the keys? Kind of you reflect back right. On what she did. What were her success points? What were those key or pivotal moments that she did that was like, okay, yeah, she's ready for the next move. And trying to figure out how do we repeat that or put that into a. Yeah. Into a plan?

[Brandon Nyro]

Actually, I feel like I do kind of have it.

[Jack]

Oh, she got.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. What do you got? So. And this is trends. So if we're spotting trends, the people that have moved to our senior leadership team are the people who either identified a problem or were part of a conversation with the problem and said yes to being a part of the solution consistently.

[Jack]

Okay.

[Brandon Nyro]

And the people that. Who are not yet on our senior leadership team did not do that. If we just, like, overarching think about that. So there's expressing interest in, hey, I want to grow my career, I want to grow myself, I want to do all this stuff. And that's good. And that's like, table stakes one step. Two is I see this problem and I am going to Be a part of the solution. Here's how I can help. So four of our directors right now, which there are four, all did that. Every single one. When they were in leadership positions.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Brandon Nyro]

So we can walk through a few of their careers. But inside Fulfillment, she jumped into acquisitions. She helped with integration. She signed herself up to take on more and to solve bigger problems. And she took over departments that were struggling. Inside. Inside operations, it was the same thing. Hey, this is touching my department. I think I can do it better. Can I take over this team from over here? She's done that twice now.

[Jack]

Fair. Okay.

[Brandon Nyro]

So. And I. Marketing is the same thing. Like, help stand up a few teams and then help to monitor and Absolutely. Taking on more and solving bigger and bigger problems every day.

[Jack]

So I guess my question on that one. And this is like an if. Right. As the company grows, in my mind, they were. Again, those are opportunities they seized because they were visible to them.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yes.

[Jack]

Do those problems become less visible to that level that has the opportunity to grow?

[Brandon Nyro]

I don't think so. I actually think it even becomes more visible. So if I. If I'm a plumber today in Wilson and I see something that I don't like or not, not just like me, you know, back to, like, I can zoom out beyond just my own perspective and like, hey, this problem impacts my department, and if this problem were fixed, we would be more profitable.

[Jack]

Okay.

[Brandon Nyro]

So how a lot of team members would approach that problem is kind of emotional. So they would come in, they'd hoot and sort of holler about it until somebody halfway fixes it. Because the company is so large and because there's so much going on, if someone said, hey, here's the problem, here's how I can solve it and participate, that's signing themselves up for a career accelerant. And, you know, when I. I did a tweet a couple weeks ago, because this was on my brain a few weeks ago, because I think I noticed something with as Lori was doing it. But I think when I think about the people that have been the most mobile through our organization upwards, they're solving big problems, and they're signing themselves up to solve big problems. So I think the fastest career accelerant that anyone can have in Wilson or in any business ever is how do I find the biggest problem or the biggest opportunity and say, hey, can I help you solve that? Like, if it flops, then okay, like, not great. Like, maybe bounce back to your old position. But if you succeed. Ali went from call taker to director in 36 months. So like, so I'm like, it's, yeah. Changed your life. And I think there's this. I think you can accelerate by enlisting.

[Jack]

So I agree with that. And then maybe the next conversation there is those happen because you and me had direct purview to them. So how do we make sure that our directors and our current managers feel empowered to allow their teams to step up as well too? Because if they don't have a direct access to you and me to say, hey, I see this problem, I want to solve it 100% because we would typically be the ones to initiate that acceleration. How do we allow directors and current managers to say, like, hey, someone in my team does want to step up. They identified something, they see it and they want to help solve it. How do we make sure they're enabled to say yes and get them involved?

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the, that's the high potential question, the high pot question. Like, how do you encourage entrepreneurial behaviors anywhere inside the organization and then once someone identifies them, how do you drag them from wherever they are into something useful?

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting. I think that has to do something with the way we operate our bto. Right. We talk about the growth trajectory of the company, we talk about what we want to be. Maybe that's something I think we can easily tie into there because it ties in with our core values of betterment and teamwork. So do we lean into that and really get the leadership team to understand that they have the ability to empower their team to have those conversations? It's. We're doing it by proxy, right through our leadership development. This thing we just talked about, where they're participating in a real life solution. How do we expand that beyond there? So that's people.

[Brandon Nyro]

One potential way to do it which could be kind of fun is like we take the emerging leaders class. So like not apprentices typically. Right? Are there some apprentices?

[Jack]

No.

[Brandon Nyro]

Okay, so non apprentices typically, but I believe that's field and administration.

[Jack]

Yep.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. So like pretty good scope of the company and we're getting ready for a second cohort of another 10.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Brandon Nyro]

So 20 total. What could be kind of fun is like running project style cohorts. You know, last time we had you on was like, hey, how do we build this like lethal team? So what if you, what if you took this team and you're like, hey, here's a problem, let's work on it for 30 days? So like a month. And like, that's a one of the sections is like, hey, we have four weeks where we're going to work on it and like we'll hit it hard.

[Jack]

That'd be interesting.

[Brandon Nyro]

And like we provide budget. So that way resource is not a constraint. So you would be like, hey, materials, maybe like, hey, this problem. Here's the depth of this problem. This problem is a $80,000 a month problem, which means you are solving a million dollar problem. Like the resources that you will be provided, like we'll commit $10,000 or $20,000 over the next 30 days to solve it or 60 days to solve it.

[Jack]

That would be interesting.

[Brandon Nyro]

Let's solve it. Because I think that is because we already have the people who are interested in. And I think that's my point is like step one is saying, hey, I want to grow.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Step two is identifying problems or opportunities that they can grow in.

[Jack]

Okay. Yeah. I can, I can get behind that. I like that. That would be interesting too because it's no longer in theory and they could actually participate in something real.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Like I think that's, I think it.

[Brandon Nyro]

I think it would. What's the program like Sherwin Williams and.

[Jack]

Like the leadership development program.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. There's a name for it.

[Jack]

It's like management training or intern. I don't know.

[Brandon Nyro]

But I think this is kind of how it works.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Where like you go in and you work on problems inside departments.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And you're sort of working in departments.

[Jack]

Yeah. They get like a three month stint throughout all the different.

[Brandon Nyro]

Right.

[Jack]

Divisions.

[Brandon Nyro]

So maybe that's year two of the leadership development program. So year one is like, here's how leadership works. And year two per cohort could be tactical, hands on or like the back half or something. Because I know it's 52 weeks, so I don't want to mess with that. But you start like solving real issues.

[Jack]

That would be interesting because then they could actually put to play all the stuff they're learning.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And keep it fresh.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, that'd be interesting. I know when I was in school, like for accounting, it. I was able to go to school on Wednesday night. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night. Come in the next day and like have a set of books to look at.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And that I think like sped it all up.

[Jack]

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I think that'd be interesting to figure out a project based setup like that for them because even we could run alongside the program. It's just a way to keep reinforcing what they're doing. I was joking. You remember the, the, the business strategy game.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

It's just like a way to practice what we're. You know, that kind of stuff that would be interesting. But to actually do it inside of Wilson instead of just a game.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Fun.

[Brandon Nyro]

And there's stuff that don't even need like that big of a resource.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Like, hey, guys, our number of reviews a week is less than we want. Here's $5,000. Like, where do we put it? How do we allocate that? Like, how do you think we solve this problem?

[Jack]

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Because then they. It would also give them a deeper understanding to the whys behind some of that, which as still people in the field, they would be the agents of that change too. Now they understand the deep meaning behind the why. Why review so important.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yep.

[Jack]

They're changing and making effect to that problem. They're also the change agents in the field to get everybody on board with it. Yeah, I thought a lot.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. I also think it like, distributes problem solving, which I think is good because I think if we. If we really like break down, like, what is leadership and like what is moving. It's like, it's just we're solving problems at scale.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Like, that's it. And. And if. And I think a lot of it is just like, how can we un. Bottleneck problem solving.

[Jack]

That I think is the next major hurdle that we. Or myself. What we're going to solve is I'm starting to get better at the delegation of that stuff or, you know, unbottlenecking per se. That's the next year we have to work with. Is our directors too on how do we.

[Brandon Nyro]

Oh, yeah.

[Jack]

Further on bottleneck. So they don't become. They don't become me. They don't become the next point for things.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. I'm a big fan of this idea because I feel like we literally just had this natively on here. But.

[Jack]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

But I do think that, yeah. The trend is, hey, if you want to move up to frontline leadership, it is. I want to grow in my career, wherever you are. I'm an apprentice. I'm a call taker. I'm a technician. I want to grow in my career and I'm willing to commit to that. Okay, great. We have a program to do that. And then once you're inside that program or once you are currently a frontline leader, I want to still grow in my career. What does the next step look like? Well, great. The next step is senior managers or directors. And here's what that looks like. Let's solve real problems instead of Tactical day to day.

[Jack]

Yeah, I like that a lot.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah. And maybe the next step after that's like, P and L ownership.

[Jack]

Yeah. Or even subsets of it, too.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

Because that's. I mean, kind of what we're doing right now with the project is they're picking their. The one thing they're most passionate about. So essentially, they will take some ownership over a subset instead of gross margin. Whether it's labor material. They had to pick one specific so that they're not kind of overshooting. I want them to be successful in it. So they have to pick a specific issue and tie it to one specific metric, whether it's labor material, and then work through that problem. So.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would have been kind of interesting just is I. Because I can think of all these, like, different decisions we make every day, and it would be fun to handle this with, like, a group of, like, here's an active thing. Like, we just did a price change. Did you guys talk about that?

[Jack]

No.

[Brandon Nyro]

That would have killed.

[Jack]

That'd be interesting.

[Brandon Nyro]

That would have killed.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Of like, God did that next week. Yeah, yeah. Like, hey, here's the problem we're having. Our material is now 26%. Budget's 23. Four percent's a lot.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Our labor is 26. It's supposed to be also 23. That's a lot. Like, what do you think we should do? What are the options we have? You know, layoff, raise, price, fire, low performers. You know, there's five, six options. It's not a lot. And then just, like, working through it. And then like, okay, well, what we chose was price increase. How do we do that? And how do we drill that in? How do we train it? How do we roll it out? So I. I feel like there's a. I almost feel like you could take sections of our senior leadership L10, and like, hey, we missed on this metric. So we missed on labor, we missed on materials, we missed on reviews. Like, we missed somewhere. Let's make that a conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jack]

I'm trying to make sure that that program is as transparent as possible, too. So they just. They understand the why. And it's not just a hey, do this because this is what you were taught type of thing. But.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Understand the true things.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

What is the reason behind it and what was the logic on the decision that was made? So I think that would help.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

I deepen that understanding. So.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Fascinating. This was a good discussion. I feel like, for our own team of just how to move through the organization. And I think the big thing is like if you're looking for opportunity, like we have it.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

So reach out to your direct like there's have a conversation everywhere. You can be pretty mobile horizontally, you can be pretty mobile vertically. That's a big opportunity now.

[Jack]

Yeah. The single biggest failure point I see is people who have that conversation. It always sucks because it's too late. But you hear it in the exit interview and it's I wanted more and I didn't, I didn't get there. And it's never really like I didn't know how. It's just like it wasn't there. They didn't see it. So it's. Yeah. That's the thing I can say is just ask, have the conversation if you're interested in it. Talk to somebody about it because yeah. We don't know until you say it. You can help you get there and you just got to let it be known that that's a desire.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. I think a few ways I think we're. I know I'm working on like cleaning that up is one. Here's the where we're going wall. I also think being much more transparent with our 12 month org chart wall.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Like hey, 12 months from now, this is the org chart that we see.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

And I think that that will provide more insight.

[Jack]

Yeah. Yeah. Especially how much the team's grown. There's not folks who've been here, you know, maybe a year or even two years, they weren't part of the explosion in the very beginning. So they don't understand how fast we're growing because they're just jumping in the middle of it.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah. They're coming up 150 people.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

They're like, oh, we're at 160 now.

[Jack]

Yeah. They don't see that there is true opportunity there because they didn't witness it. But as we prep for the next stage, you know, multi location it's those opportunities represent themselves in large numbers. So just be willing to just continue.

[Brandon Nyro]

Organic like three new leadership four because warehouse. That's a lot. That's a lot.

[Jack]

I don't think there is clear then which is exactly what you're trying to solve.

[Brandon Nyro]

A new super in Costner too. So that's five. So yeah, it's really not transparent. So that's something I'll work on after this. But just like hey, here's our 12 month org chart. Here's what we think it looks like start. Because I, I think that also will start like okay, here's all the different seats. I kind of want to be over there. I kind of want to be over there. I feel like what would be really interesting. I don't know. I don't know how to pull this off in a way that's like transparent and like, effective. Because I think you can do it transparent, but I think it can be really ineffective.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Is like rough compensation ranges by seat. That way they understand where they can grow and what compensation. Like, what does it look like once you get there?

[Jack]

Yeah, I would agree. Because again, like we said, as if their passions are other than just career development. Or maybe they're. It's both. They should understand. Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

What.

[Jack]

What does that look like? What does a career look like? What does a comp look like? Understanding, you know, if you're going to make an active decision to grow and push towards something.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

What is the end result?

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

Fascinating. Good topic. This is good. Yeah. If. I think we'll do a wrap up. So any quick tips on, like, this is something that came up a lot years ago in a few of the group chats I'm in, but like creating a leadership development program, which you have now done. You did an amazing job of it. I can't even say we like. You did a great job of it. How, like, what's the quick tip here on like, how to do that? Because I don't even think that was nextar or. No, it was like maybe some flavors, but like, we did it. Yeah, that one. I said we.

[Jack]

Nice. Honestly, I'm still. This is the first cohort we're going through, so, like, we're actively learning, adjusting.

[Brandon Nyro]

As we go on this podcast. We just added a second year and.

[Jack]

Hold on for two weeks to it. Like, the big things I think that I've learned so far is the program has to. It's great. You know, you can learn about Wilson, you can learn about your specific company, you can learn about some of the stuff. But there still has to. You have to go back to the 101s and I had to take a lot of time and a lot of input from other people on things that maybe I just took for granted or things that I thought were just 100 ones that actually aren't. You truly need to explain those. So I just take it another step further than you think you need to go. You're going to have a conversation about one on ones. You need to take it a step further back and understand why do one on ones happen in the emotional intelligence conversations behind that when the topics inevitably come up in it that you have to address. You can't just be like, yeah, one on ones. Here's why they're important and here's how you do them. Let's talk about what's the emotional intelligence behind them. So just every topic that you think you need to cover, whether it's with your existing leadership team or someone who's preparing to move into leadership for the first time, just go another step further. Make it truly understanding of how to operate those. Because what you don't want, and what I'm really trying to avoid with our team is to give them that false sense of reality that they are prepared and that they end up flopping. Right. When they get into that first crucial conversation. I want you to really understand how to navigate those. So when you have the first one, you're successful and that builds your confidence. Right. That's why the class. When we first started it, I think the very first layout I did was only 16 weeks and then I started getting input from everybody and then it blossomed into just a hair over a year. Got it shrunk down to a year on the dot. But that was a big kind of like, oh, aha. Moment for me was I took a lot of things for granted that I've known for long enough that I just forgot. They're second nature to me. They are not going to be for others. And if you're in the position where you're actively going to start making a leadership program like this, there's going to be things that you take for granted.

[Brandon Nyro]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So just think further back onto the first time you were in a management role or leadership role. What are the things that you wish you would have known then that are now just second?

[Brandon Nyro]

Just how you do it.

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandon Nyro]

It's good. It's a good perspective. Awesome. If you like what you've heard, make sure you like and subscribe and check out owned and operated.com do have our next workshop coming up. It's in August. Owned and Operated.com Workshop. Thanks.