#229 Plumber Closes +$10M/Year (With Just One Trade)

Summary

Owned and Operated - Episode #229: "Plumber Closes +$10M/Year (With Just One Trade)"

Release Date: July 31, 2025

In this compelling episode of "Owned and Operated," host John Wilson sits down with Kelson Carter, a third-generation plumber who has successfully scaled his plumbing business to over $10 million in annual revenue by focusing solely on plumbing services. Their in-depth conversation uncovers key strategies, insights, and lessons learned in growing a home service business with precision and focus.

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1. The Pitfall of Multi-Trade Expansion

Kelson begins by addressing a common mistake in the home service industry: diluting focus by adding multiple trades.

Kelson Carter [00:00]: "With $3 million, companies are like, oh, I'm doing 3 million. I'm gonna add HVAC, I'm add electrical. Then they're not making any money. They have no idea what they're doing. They have no focus."

Kelson emphasizes that many businesses falter when they stray from their core competency, leading to financial instability and operational inefficiencies.

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2. Achieving Monumental Growth Through Specialization

Kelson shares his company’s impressive milestone of reaching $11 million solely through plumbing.

John [00:09]: "11 million just plumbing dig. Like, how can somebody else follow that?"

Kelson attributes this success to strategic focus and disciplined investment in sales, which allowed his business to thrive without the distractions of managing multiple trades.

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3. The Critical Role of Sales in Scaling

A significant turning point for Kelson's business was the integration of a dedicated sales team.

Kelson Carter [00:13]: "The biggest game changer for us was we brought in sales this year. He's gonna do close to 3 million. Just strictly plumbing sales, not excavation, nothing."

By hiring a skilled salesperson, Kelson was able to convert leads more effectively, driving substantial revenue increases. This strategic investment underscores the importance of having a strong sales team to scale operations efficiently.

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4. Transitioning from Time and Material to Flat Rate

Kelson recounts the pivotal decision to switch from a time and material model to a flat rate pricing structure, a move that stabilized his business financially.

Kelson Carter [07:48]: "He joined Contractors 2000 back in the mid-90s... decided to go all service... kept six and decided from this point forward, I just want to own a profitable company."

This transition not only improved profitability but also enhanced customer satisfaction by providing clear and predictable pricing.

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5. Building a Robust and Loyal Team

Kelson highlights the significance of team stability and retention in sustaining business growth.

Kelson Carter [14:15]: "We have approximately 50 employees... have gotten to the size now where people aren't leaving as much."

Maintaining a loyal and skilled workforce has been integral to Kelson's ability to manage and execute on high-ticket plumbing projects consistently.

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6. Optimizing Operational Efficiency and Inventory Management

Effective inventory management is a cornerstone of Kelson’s operational success.

Kelson Carter [17:33]: "We keep on hand enough to stock six trucks at any time."

By maintaining a strategic inventory level, Kelson ensures that his team can handle high volumes of work without unnecessary delays, thereby maximizing efficiency and customer satisfaction.

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7. Leveraging Marketing and Lead Generation

Kelson underscores the importance of sophisticated marketing strategies over basic lead generation methods like Craigslist or Facebook.

Kelson Carter [18:49]: "A lot of people don't know how to spend the money. They think running Craigslist leads and Facebook leads is going to grow your business."

Instead, his approach involves targeted marketing campaigns and effective lead management, which have been instrumental in driving high-quality leads that convert into lucrative projects.

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8. Maximizing Profitability in Drain Services

While plumbing remains the core, Kelson discusses the profitability and challenges associated with expanding into drain services.

John [27:04]: "It's a beautiful business. It is like, we are... drain department is 3.5 million."

Despite its high margins, scaling the drain service sector requires careful planning and strategic marketing, mirroring the success seen in his plumbing division.

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9. Advice for Aspiring Plumbers and Business Owners

Kelson imparts valuable wisdom to those looking to enter or grow within the plumbing industry.

Kelson Carter [44:47]: "It's always too soon to quit. Starting a company from scratch... picking a good team is very hard."

He emphasizes perseverance, the importance of a strong team, and maintaining focus on core services as essential elements for building a successful and sustainable business.

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10. Future Vision and Growth Strategies

Looking ahead, Kelson outlines his ambition to grow his business to over $20 million in the next decade by continuing to focus on plumbing and enhancing marketing efforts rather than diversifying into multiple trades.

Kelson Carter [43:59]: "10-year vision would be 20 million plus... having more trucks on the road helps out better."

He plans to capitalize on his strong market presence and scalable business model to achieve sustained growth without compromising profitability.

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Conclusion

Kelson Carter's journey from a family-operated plumbing business to a thriving $11 million enterprise exemplifies the power of focus, strategic sales investment, and disciplined operational management. His insights provide a roadmap for other home service business owners aiming to achieve similar success by prioritizing specialization, building a loyal team, and implementing effective marketing strategies.

For more insights and actionable advice on growing your plumbing, electrical, or HVAC business, visit www.ownedandoperated.com.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kelson Carter [00:00]: "With $3 million, companies are like, oh, I'm doing 3 million. I'm gonna add HVAC, I'm add electrical. Then they're not making any money. They have no idea what they're doing. They have no focus."

• John [00:09]: "11 million just plumbing dig. Like, how can somebody else follow that?"

• Kelson Carter [07:48]: "He joined Contractors 2000 back in the mid-90s... decided to go all service... kept six and decided from this point forward, I just want to own a profitable company."

• Kelson Carter [18:49]: "A lot of people don't know how to spend the money. They think running Craigslist leads and Facebook leads is going to grow your business."

• Kelson Carter [44:47]: "It's always too soon to quit. Starting a company from scratch... picking a good team is very hard."

• Kelson Carter [43:59]: "10-year vision would be 20 million plus... having more trucks on the road helps out better."

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone in the plumbing or home services industry looking to scale their business effectively and profitably by maintaining focus and leveraging strategic sales and marketing practices.

Transcript

[Kelson Carter]

You see this all the time. With $3 million, companies are like, oh, I'm doing 3 million. I'm gonna add H Vac, I'm add electrical. Then they're not making any money. They have no idea what they're doing. They have no focus. I mean, I see it every day.

[John]

11 million just plumbing dig. Like, how can somebody else follow that?

[Kelson Carter]

I would say the biggest game changer for us was we brought in sales this year. He's gonna do close to 3 million. Just strictly plumbing sales, not excavation, nothing. A lot of people don't know how to spend the money. They don't know how to take the risk to put your name out there. They think that Craigslist leads and Facebook leads is gonna grow your business or me down the road, which most time, you know, those are the worst clients to have, as you know.

[John]

Welcome back to owned and operated. Today on the show, I have Kelson Carter. Welcome to the show.

[Kelson Carter]

Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

[John]

Yeah, man, this will be fun. Thanks for coming in. You got to spend most of the day with us so far.

[Kelson Carter]

I. Yeah, I really appreciate you opening everything up for me. Akron's a fun city. So, yeah, not a lot happening, but still, is it Stowe?

[John]

Yeah. So like, there's Akron, Cleveland, which is obviously Cleveland's big. Cleveland's 30 minutes north of Akron, and then Stowe is halfway in between because we serve both.

[Kelson Carter]

Gotcha.

[John]

Used to be just Akron for 55 years, and then in 2020, we did our first dollar in Cleveland. Never look back.

[Kelson Carter]

You like Cleveland?

[John]

It's bigger. So like Akron population of that county is like 450 of Cleveland proper is 2 million. So it's just five times the size. Today's break is brought to you by Owned and operated newsletter. Go to owned and operated.com and sign up for a twice weekly drop that we send to 40, 000 contractors with actionable tips on marketing, hiring and growing your business. Join the 40, 000 other home service contractors already signed up and learning. Enjoy the rest of the episode.

[Kelson Carter]

How's Cleveland compared to Indianapolis? I've never been to Cleveland, so I'm not.

[John]

Yeah, I think that Indianapolis is growing faster and has stronger demographics. Okay, so Cleveland, we're growing a little bit. There's pockets of like high. It's a big city. Like number 48, I think so. Big city, big businesses, public companies. So there's a lot going on. But like, the economics in Columbus and Cincinnati are better than they are in Cleveland.

[Kelson Carter]

And Akron's probably kind of like what's the size of Akron.

[John]

Akron proper's 190, but the county is 400ish.

[Kelson Carter]

Okay, yeah. So would you say like 80% of your work comes from Akron?

[John]

No, no, I mean it used to be 100, now it's more like 30.

[Kelson Carter]

Oh wow. Okay.

[John]

Yeah. Cleveland, I mean it's just a bigger know five times the population. So marketing dollar goes farther, we get more leads. We also bought a bunch of companies up there. So there I think there's like an interesting play where there's these cities that are attached to other cities.

[Kelson Carter]

Gotcha.

[John]

So Ann Arbor to Detroit, Dayton to Cincinnati, South Bend, Chicago maybe. I'm sure there's a lot with Chicago, but it's you take these big cities and there's like a full blown massive metropolis within 30 minutes. I think that that's like good. Which what has been funny over like my career, what I've watched again, Akron is a fourth of the size of Cleveland or less. And but I think because of that the biggest companies came from Akron. So like the two largest companies in our market is me and someone else and we're both in Akron. And I think it's because we were able to grow and incubate inside a smaller, less competitive market and then reach up to the bigger one while the bigger market everybody was fighting for share.

[Kelson Carter]

Gotcha.

[John]

So yeah, two biggest markets are from like the small town.

[Kelson Carter]

Do you have a location up there?

[John]

We used to.

[Kelson Carter]

Okay, so you guys drive back and forth or.

[John]

Yeah, we'll drive up to 90 minutes.

[Kelson Carter]

Oh wow.

[John]

Yeah, we'll drive. Yeah. People have thoughts on that?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, that's what our farthest we drive is probably 60 at the mo, maybe 50 minutes. So on average.

[John]

Yeah, I think some people, you know the way they cover that. So like if you're covering a big city, some people will they take this hour away philosophy. We've talked about it a ton on the show. Tommy Mellow's done this, Chad Peterman's done this, Aaron from EO's done this. Like most multi location operators have run this playbook where they take their home base, then they launch a location an hour away and they launch their location hour away from that and they just keep changing so that way they can share resources along the way easier. So if two, like if I have two locations but they're an hour and a half away, it is harder to like hey, this one's slow. So I'm going to send installers or service guys over here to this one. Whereas if you have them sort of chained you can like pool together.

[Kelson Carter]

Gotcha. Do you feel like your efficiency goes down? Like a billable efficiency or.

[John]

Probably. But we. The. I think that's a part of the way we've chosen to run is the sales install model where our salespeople, like our plumbers and electricians, like go out and estimate the job. If it's very small, they do it themselves to save on a trip, but they tend to flip it over to install. So maybe there's a little bit of extra drive time. But I think because our average ticket is so high, because we follow that model, that it matters a little bit less.

[Kelson Carter]

Gotcha.

[John]

Because I think it's like sales people.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

So that's our philosophy. Seems to be working, but it could break. I really have no idea. You know, we'll see what it looks like. Twice our size.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

I'd love to hear a little bit more about you. You're also a third generation plumber.

[Kelson Carter]

I am. Are you a third generation?

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Wow. Okay. Runs in our blood, doesn't it? Us plumbers gotta stick together, right? It's the water here. I was convinced to get into HVC coming over here and then I'm talked out of it. But.

[John]

Yeah, well, I do think like 11 million dollar plumbing, plumbing company.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Like, there's just not a lot of them that size. And you know, I have a. I have a good friend Isaac in Chicago, and I think he's 25 this year. Pure plumbing. I think one of the advantages that he has that I will never have and the, one of the advantages that you have that I will never have is like you can be more dialed in and you can be more like, it's scalable. Like simple is scalable. So the less things you do, the more scalable it is. So there's a very real possibility that like, yeah, we're bigger than you now, but like, you could pass us in a few years if you chose to like expand and keep it simple because you, you have a simpler model to replicate. Like if I went to go launch somewhere new and I wanted to go full bore, like all three trades, a ton of brain damage versus just like plumbing. Plumbing, plumbing. Same with like electric H vac, like, if it was just one trade. So I think you have a huge advantage and so does Isaac. I think it's a huge advantage.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, it's a good point.

[John]

Yep.

[Kelson Carter]

So, yeah, I. My grandpa was a plumber. Kind of a one man show. And then my father came along and grew, grew the business and got heavy into new construction. Okay, well, the problem with new construction, you're always waiting on your money.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

And he joined Contractors 2000 back in the mid-90s. Eventually joined Ben Franklin one hour. Had the opportunity to exit in 2006. And I never showed interest of getting into the trade.

[John]

How big was the Ben Franklin?

[Kelson Carter]

They were doing about 8 million.

[John]

How big is that? Like this big back then.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. I don't know how to. You know, I think they had 80 employees.

[John]

So that's crazy.

[Kelson Carter]

Or they had four physical. Three or four physical locations. So back in the day it was all about being, you know, in a certain spot having that. That base right there wasn't like the technology we have now where you can, you know, we shoot back then you probably. I don't know if we had GPS's. I mean I was still.

[John]

We didn't. I mean we were using CB radio.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Still.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. So they used to use the nextel, walkie talkie type things and all that. So had the opportunity to exit. Took two years off. Had two year non compete. I was graduating high school. We graduated same year 2009. Just kind of started doing it. I was like, you know, showed interest in it. Started doing some new construction. Really understood the P. L. From that. Did that for two years. Understood that I don't want to do new construction. So I'm more salesy.

[John]

The most important lesson.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Like you learned the only important thing.

[Kelson Carter]

You know today's world though, there are a lot of new construction guys that are really banging it out. I mean you're still waiting on your money. But if you can get like there's some production guys that are in my area that are really killing it.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So once you have it down to.

[John]

A science, I think you can at like big.

[Kelson Carter]

Yes.

[John]

Like the guys that I hear that.

[Kelson Carter]

Are onesie twosie guys. It's tough, man.

[John]

Yeah. The guys that I hear that are printing are like 6, 000 homes a year.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. Yeah. You got to be big volume. So. But they have it down to a science where one guy does one thing, you know, next guy does the next. So they do well at it. So in 2011, 12 decided I wanted to start going service. So we bought two trucks, my father and I and we just kind of started from there. Just kind of been an organic growth. Just kind of one truck, two truck here, there. 2014 I kind of went through kind of what everybody goes in their mid-20s kind of what am I doing? We just constant turnover. You know, I would be out of the truck one day, two people quit next Thing, you know, Kelson's back running the service call. I'm like, you know what? I. I don't know, it may be easier to go work for someone else than, you know, do your own thing. So my dad had a good friend down in Jacksonville, Florida, went down there for a short period. They were still on time material, which I thought was crazy. But you said in 2014 you were.

[John]

We still were. We switched to. And I don't even like we're gonna say this, and this is kind of funny. I don't get to meet many like industry, like people who've been in the industry for a while who are also young. It's just like not really a thing. So like every. Most of my friends that are like in industry only came in like five years ago. Six years ago.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. I got in when the gravy train was good.

[John]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, a lot of the rules were already set. You didn't go through this stuff. But. But yeah, I remember pivoting to flat rate for the first time. It was 2017.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Which like, yeah, that is crazy. I like, I don't even, I don't even think about that. Transit was so long ago.

[Kelson Carter]

But so my father, in the 90s, he went to next door thing and he said coming home, he made a decision to go all service. So he had like, I don't know, probably 30 plumbers or something. And he got rid of all of them and kept six and decided from this point forward, I just want to own a profitable company. I don't care what the top line revenue is. I just want to make money and be able to put food on the table. I don't want to be getting loans out to make payroll, you know. And the next thing was they had to go from $50 an hour to 300. Back then it was like unheard of, you know, flat rate. When he told the guys that were working for him that they were going to go flat rate, he had three people threaten to quit right then and there. They're like, there's no way, you know. And so he ended up, you know, making that change and it made all the difference. But he told me stories of. He said it was almost daily he would have someone call in to complain because back then you didn't have Google or anything and they would just call you and rip you a new one. He said he. There were times he would just hide from the phone because it's just like.

[John]

You know, back then you may moving on to flat.

[Kelson Carter]

Well, the flat rate because no one else in the area. I mean I think there may have been one dial one may have been doing it, but it just wasn't like it is now. I mean, shoot, there's.

[John]

Is anybody like. Well, I did meet someone the other day that was time and material and I.

[Kelson Carter]

Where we go at in Florida and Marco Island, Florida, everybody down there still time material, all the plumbers on the island. It blows our mind, but they do well because today's world they charge. You know, people charge out the wazoo. You know, we have ex employees that charge more than what we did. And it's like you don't have the overhead, you know, you don't even know what your costs are. They're just charging.

[John]

Yeah, yeah, I have like there's. There's a friend of mine in market here and he charges what we charge.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

And it's like he has, he has zero over.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, it's like they have bro. Yeah, that's good. But they have no idea what their true costs are.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So anyways, came back in 2015 and just really started trying to grow the business and putting the money. Kept putting the money back in the business. You know, we have been a debt free company. I'm not saying that's always the best thing, but it's just kind of a model I chose to go.

[John]

I think it's epic as hell.

[Kelson Carter]

It's a slower, it's slower growth but you know, it's. It does help us in the long run. Did a rebrand.

[John]

I'm just going to specify so everyone hears there's no debt on vehicles either.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. Everything is debt free.

[John]

Yeah, I think it's a big advantage.

[Kelson Carter]

So. But it's been hard because you know, I mean until we've gotten to the size, the capital to just keep putting back in the fleets. Like I was telling you earlier, I got older trucks that need. Yeah, it's just a constant kind of ongoing thing. But we don't drive far.

[John]

So.

[Kelson Carter]

You know, I have trucks that I bought five years ago. They have like 50,000 miles on it.

[John]

Yes.

[Kelson Carter]

They live in the area.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Wear and tears. Not so as much on them. 2019, did the rebrand kind of put my touch on it? Started talking about we had kind of a 5050 partnership with my parents and ended up fully buying them out about three or four years ago.

[John]

Nice.

[Kelson Carter]

And yeah.

[John]

Yeah. Now here we are today.

[Kelson Carter]

Here we are today.

[John]

Here we are. Who's on the team? Like how big is the team now?

[Kelson Carter]

So we have. Yeah, we have approximately 50 employees. Okay. I have a couple service managers that just deal with the technicians, excavation team.

[John]

Lead manager and then 30 plumbers.

[Kelson Carter]

We run about 20, a little over 20. And then we have apprentices. There's. We try to keep at least six to seven. We used to run a one to one ratio. Yeah, stop that. We just kind of have gotten to the size now where people aren't leaving as much. I don't know. I don't know if it's economy this year. Have you felt like turnovers? I mean finding people. This past year has been the easiest I've ever seen since I've been in the trade in my opinion. I know a lot of companies, you know, in the industry have either sold and sometimes slow down. So we've had. Seems like anytime anybody sells we kind of get people flip over from that. You know, they want to stay with a family oriented organization.

[John]

Yeah, could be. That could be size.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Bigger usually attracts more.

[Kelson Carter]

That's true.

[John]

So like did you move because location.

[Kelson Carter]

No. Can attract more than the same location for. Since 1988.

[John]

Yeah. That's funny.

[Kelson Carter]

So yeah.

[John]

You're about to move.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, well actually. Yeah. When you're out, I'll show you. But we, we have room to expand. I just bought some property too for parking. But yeah. I don't know. In today's world, I mean does it. Do you always have to have the largest building? I don't know. Like are you able to run a larger operation? Kind of like you have. I mean you're offshoring some of your people that work for you.

[John]

I think you necessarily need between offshoring and like automation you probably need less square footage. What we have continued to find is like I wish we had more. There's things you don't even think about. Yeah, like I don't even think about. Yeah, right. So we had someone yesterday and we tried to go find spot for a meeting and there was no conference rooms available level. So sort of like. Okay, well like do we need to like carve this out into a small meeting room or like training? Like. Yeah, we have 37000 square feet I think or 38 somewhere in there. And there's not enough physical space to put like a large enough training room to like run an academy in house.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Like we could maybe find a way to like carve out 2000 square feet. But I think that's where our gap has been.

[Kelson Carter]

Like keeping inventory. Like that's one thing we haven't really brought in. I mean y. You know I have. We have a supply house that comes by twice a day. So we're able to, you know, keep onesie twosies of things we need, keep enough to restock. We keep on hand enough to stock six trucks any. @ any time. But as far as, like, water heaters, softeners, stuff like that, it's just kind of a onesie twosie. And as the day goes on, as stuff moves, you know.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

There's some days we're putting in 10, 12 water heaters, so it's like, you know, we need that supply coming back in.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

And our local supplier is able to do that. But I haven't felt the need to really expand too much outside of what we have.

[John]

When you think of like 11 million, just plumbing is big, right? Like, that's big. It's inarguably big. Like, what are the key decisions? You're that like, got you there. Like, how can somebody else follow that?

[Kelson Carter]

I would say the biggest game changer for us was when we brought in sales.

[John]

That look like.

[Kelson Carter]

So any free estimate leads. We started, you know, I think we were at 1.5. We brought in our first salesman and it really took. Yeah, he worked at a competitor. That's all he did there. And he ended up coming to us, lived in the Greenwood area. Well, I think this year he's gonna do close to 3 million.

[John]

Nice.

[Kelson Carter]

And plumbing? Just strictly plumbing sales, not excavation, nothing.

[John]

So what is that? Is that like water heaters?

[Kelson Carter]

Water heaters, softeners, re pipes. Any we give him over the phone leads. The certain one because he is a, his profile is a debater, and he's very good at, you know, especially on phone leads. You know, people call in for a water heater.

[John]

Is that culture index?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I use that for a little while. We don't use it anymore.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So pretty expensive, but it was pretty accurate for the most part, you know, I don't know.

[John]

What are you?

[Kelson Carter]

Huh? I'm a tech expert. What are you?

[John]

I think I'm a philosopher.

[Kelson Carter]

I could see that you're way out here. I'm more like, I have brakes on me. So I, I, I was, I was.

[John]

Close to all gas. No brakes.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, yeah. That's why I told you to watch that re. Re. We work.

[John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So, but yeah, no, I would say the biggest game changer for us was when we started obviously, marketing more. A lot of companies don't, obviously. I'm learning I'm not the best marketer after coming out here, but a lot of people don't know how to spend the money. They don't know how to take the risk to put your name out there. They think that running Craigslist leads and Facebook leads is going to grow your business. Or by knowing Jimmy down the road. Yeah. Which most time, you know, those are the worst clients to have as you know. So marketing, getting the sales, having a good salesman. You know, I really, I've. I've had some bad salesmen.

[John]

So for sure what makes a bad one.

[Kelson Carter]

They're closing. They're not hitting the KPI.

[John]

Just low percentage.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. They're not hitting their KPIs that, you know, you need them to hit once you have a good one, you know.

[John]

You know.

[Kelson Carter]

You know.

[John]

Yeah. Which. So like what's the target KPI for this plumbing?

[Kelson Carter]

So our. They need to hit 70 in home closing. Yeah. So he actually runs 80. Yeah. His average ticket for water here is like 3200.

[John]

Okay.

[Kelson Carter]

And he runs 80% on water heaters. Yeah. So over the phone, sales need to run 50%. Yeah.

[John]

Does he hit that?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, he succeeds it. My lower performing one hits right at 50.

[John]

And. And that's going to be over the phone. Like someone calls in says, I want a free estimate.

[Kelson Carter]

I don't want anybody out, you know. And that's, that's one way we have really well just being a plumbing company is we make things happen.

[John]

Yeah. Flexibly.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. We're flexibility. Like, you know, some people call and say their capacity is full. Well, we make it happen.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

You know, and then it's like your efficiency really goes up. Especially when you're closing over the phone. I mean you already. You get the picture of it. I mean, you get there.

[John]

Yep.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Works really well for us.

[John]

This is something we have started to try to work on. We have never done. We have like a robust inside sales department, but they're doing H Vac over the phone with the tech in the house or they're doing like rehash. So we're not yet selling water heaters. Just over the phone. No intro. And like we have to like. It's flexible, it's easy and we should be able to like prices for water heaters are on our website. It's not like a complicated thing. You know, you just go through the contractor commerce thing.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. Do you do well with that contractor commerce?

[John]

Yeah. As a whole. Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

I've just never gone to that style. I've been more of, you know, we get.

[John]

You don't have it on yours. Some reason. I thought you did.

[Kelson Carter]

I looked at Getting into it, but.

[John]

Different Carters in Indianapolis.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, actually, when it first came out, I was kind of toying with the idea. I just. I still feel like you have to have that debating type of conversation.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

To really close the lead. I mean, you would just have to listen to them on the phone. Like, it's. It's good.

[John]

I'm gonna calm.

[Kelson Carter]

You should.

[John]

For a water.

[Kelson Carter]

Here.

[John]

Give me a 40. Yeah, that'd be a hell of an episode.

[Kelson Carter]

Now, I will tell you, if you go down this avenue, make sure you get pictures from the homeowner before you go. Oh, yeah, we've been down that road.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, that seems like that in measurements. So they. Yeah. If it's too tight of a spot.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. But besides that, it's just a water heater. I mean, I really feel like we're getting to the point where we have enough over the phone sales. I mean, out of his almost 30 million in sales, I would say sell on at least probably 30% over the phone. Wow, that high.

[John]

Yeah, that is high. How do you comp that?

[Kelson Carter]

Just pay them normal. I haven't been down that road. Have you tried to take anything away from a salesman?

[John]

Yeah, I have. It goes how you think.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

That's funny.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Okay, that's really interesting. Yeah. We started working on this a couple weeks ago, so, like, pretty fresh. It should be very solvable because it, like, doesn't seem. I'm sure there's, like, nuance, like, probably mistakes, like, oh, no venting. Venting is what I think I'm most concerned about. Like, like, hey, this isn't going to work. The chimney's mugged, or, you know, whatever freaking reason. But yeah, it seems like.

[Kelson Carter]

Do you guys sell a lot over the phone?

[John]

So we sell, I mean, millions for H vac over the. We sell millions just in general through rehash. Like, it's a half a million a month get sold over the phone. It's a lot.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

But none of them water heaters like fresh. So we haven't. We haven't. It's been like a conversation for over a year and a half of, like. And we're just now getting to execute point because just we've been doing other things. This is one of the benefits of focus in. In my mind. So, like, you can probably execute at a faster pace on more direct ideas than I can. Not just because we're a larger organization, but because we have, like, these different things. So if there's a fire burning over here in H vac or an electric or Drains. Then it's just. It's harder to, like, get your arms all around it versus just one thing. You can just go blitz.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. And I would agree 100 on that. That was another thing I meant to add. Like, when we went to the rebrand, I went through total change. The vision of the company, our higher purpose, our mission statement. We have the Carter way. That's how we hire and fire people. You know, back in the day, it was just something on the wall that I couldn't even tell you what it said. So now, you know, I have like a. Created these credit card style things that has everything on that. Everybody knows our vision. But one thing, we went back and we were a small team at the time, and we asked everybody, what's your favorite thing to do, like, as a plumber? What would be your favorite thing to do as a plumber?

[John]

Probably water heaters. Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. Everybody loves water heaters. A good ticket in and out, you.

[John]

Know, so My record was 38 minutes.

[Kelson Carter]

Ye. So that's where I came up. The USP hot water day, or it's UE pay. So that's our tagline. And we really hit home with it. And we just drove water heaters.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Do you guys track how many water years you do a year?

[John]

Yeah, we do, like 1100.

[Kelson Carter]

Okay. So we're comparable.

[John]

So if you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that we've been big fans of service scalers. One of the things that they just dropped that we are really excited about is a pay per lead program. So what they help you do is they help you directly gain access to leads and scale up your lead partner program. Go to service scalers.com and say we sent you. Yeah, it is a machine. I mean, water heaters can become like a thing.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, Tankless are great.

[John]

You should combine purchasing.

[Kelson Carter]

Who are you putting in Bradford Combined purchasing. Are you doing Bradford?

[John]

No, but, like, I could be talked into it for. For the volume of 2200. I can be talked. Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

We just switched to Renai Tankless. We've been kind of. We did Navian. Had problems. We did just went through our Bradford stint.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. And so, yeah, we've had Good luck with Renai.

[John]

Yeah. All right. So the biggest, biggest impact thing. Sales.

[Kelson Carter]

Sales unlocks. You got to know who you are. You gotta have vision. It's kind of like what you have throughout your building. I had the same thing on every wall. Where are we going?

[John]

A lot of that's fresh, like within the last month.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. So we've had ours on the wall for like four or whenever. We did the rebrand.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Right before COVID But it really just kind of changed, you know, it made us feel like a group. Everybody's just started rowing the same way, really. We knew where we were going.

[John]

So how many sales people do you have now?

[Kelson Carter]

We just have two. Strictly plumbing sales. Then I just have one excavation. So we're trying to grow the excavation. That's kind of been our. Not put a lot of emphasis on it. It's just kind of been. We do excavation.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

It really is another business in a way, you know, if you really get down the nitty gritty of it. So we just didn't put a lot of focus on it.

[John]

So it definitely is its own thing. Like, drains is so different.

[Kelson Carter]

It is. Like back when I was in a truck. Did you do drains 100? Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. It's just.

[Kelson Carter]

What today? Plumbers. I'm not a drain cleaner.

[John]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So but then when you look at, you know, if you are charging normal rates, not the 93 or free stuff, you know, you can. Those are good tickets. Do a couple of those a day.

[John]

But I do think we don't talk about drains enough.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Because it is. It's a. I mean, it's a beautiful business. It is like, we are. Our drain department is 3 1/2 ish million. I think it's 300amonth. So what's that? 3? 6. But it's like 70% gross margin. It is a ridiculous business. And it's all labor. Like, if they buy $10 of parts a month, it's like.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

What happened?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. What do you b. Budget like labor, percentage wise?

[John]

30. But then there's a little bit of overage. I don't remember what it is, like permits or something, but it's like the. Our drain cleaners are paid like 30% of ticket, so it's just whatever the ticket is.

[Kelson Carter]

That's what we budget, too.

[John]

Yeah. And so they make amazing money. Like, our drink leaders are making, like, a lot. They might even be close to our highest paid, like, infield professionals at this point. Because if you're doing 10 grand a week, that's $3,000 a week. Yeah, it's a lot of money.

[Kelson Carter]

So you're talking about earlier. We're both kind of talking about doing the loss leader thing.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Not. You know, I run a $50 off coupon right now, which does great. But it's still, just to be clear.

[John]

The loss leader thing being like 93 or free drinks.

[Kelson Carter]

93 or free. Everybody does it. It's all over the place. I mean it says I feel like you have to.

[John]

So like this is me coming from H vac. Yeah. Now we're plumbing and drains are like, you know, most of our stuff. But in H Vac everyone does the tune up special. Everybody does it. There's just no getting around it. And I mean maybe there's someone out there that's like, I'm not going to discount this.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

I see it more in drains where.

[Kelson Carter]

Like how can you differentiate yourself? Doing the cheap, you know, that's something like we don't call our tank water heater flushes. We call them a sediment flush.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Like you see sump pump inspections. This is trademarked, but we call it a sump pump stress test.

[John]

Nice.

[Kelson Carter]

So we're actually putting stress on the sump pump and people eat it up. When I run those ads on our radio, I'll run it for like two months straight. During those seasons, peak seasons for some pumps, you'd be amazed. It keep three people busy. That's, you know, just running those, those lost leaders.

[John]

That's interesting.

[Kelson Carter]

But then they turn into something more so and we do a resin cleaning.

[John]

So why do you have an issue with it for drains?

[Kelson Carter]

Just because you're. Yeah, that's a great point. I really don't have an issue for it. But I think where you cover your cost in, you know, as the whole department, you know, when you're doing the install side, you're covering your cost on the excavation sale.

[John]

So I think the idea is volume. Like if I. It's the same as H vac, so like H vac, I want to do as many tune ups as humanly possible because I know that 17 is going to be a replacement and the replacement is going to be $12,000. And sewer is almost the same thing. Like average ticket for us is 9, 500 or something like that for sewer. And I think it's one in seven or one in six. It's what something like that turns into a replacement. Like we sell one or two sewers a day, usually two. And that's, I mean do you feel.

[Kelson Carter]

Like people think that you're getting a thorough job done on a drain cleaning for that certain price? Like I think people know exactly what I mean. I feel like it's ran its course in our area. Like people know. You'll see on forums all the time. I just called in for the cheap drain clean and get them out once a year.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

You know, you almost have to have stipulations around it.

[John]

You definitely do.

[Kelson Carter]

You know, you got the landlord that lives down the road, you know, the tenant that doesn't have a pot to piss in that keeps calling you to yeah. Clean your drain. So yeah, I mean, honestly, people have done it really well. I mean I know people in my area that do really well scale.

[John]

So from. So for us like our constraints, we have four people, four like drain cleaning text every day. And that's the only department that we have not had a headcount to in four years. Like revenue's growing because we're doing price increases or we're just like getting better at running that department. But we're not growing as a department. We've been running a crew and a half for years and we've been running four drain cleaners for years. It's very profitable, it's very consistent. So we don't really mess with it. But in order to drive the amount of leads that we need to like how do we get from 4 to 10? Like it's going to be memberships with an annual scope and it's going to be like coupons, a lot of coupons and probably the 93 or free or 99 for the first 25ft, like some type of. And it's the same thing as H vac. Like you have to run this loss leader service in order to do it.

[Kelson Carter]

Just to get it.

[John]

Yeah. Which does kind of suck because like H vac no. 1. I think a lot of the best practices groups sort of like train you to, hey, your service department should be profitable. I don't know anybody's service department that's profitable. Like and ours just loses money like hand over foot. And it has forever. And you just have to come to terms with the fact that that's kind of the whole point what it is, that's what it is. Its job is to feed installs, like that's all that, you know, that's what's there to do. And I think drain cleaning promotion wise is sort of the same. So we haven't done the 93 or free thing yet either. But like we're, we're heading there. As soon as we're, we're like finishing up other projects then we'll, yeah. Start aggressively pushing on drains. It's a big opportunity. Just like H Vac. I mean ten thousand dollar average. What's your average sewer?

[Kelson Carter]

I would say we're close to you. Yeah, yeah.

[John]

That's big.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

I mean you can move a business like that.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, it's, it's yeah, we got in a trench list. We don't do lining, but we do the bursting.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

I made the investment about a year ago. So we really. There's a company in California that's a certain path member and they don't have any excavation equipment.

[John]

Oh, yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

And it's. I mean, it's awesome. I mean they make the yard look like they weren't even there.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

But you can just charge a premium or.

[John]

Oh, yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

You know, put the saw. I mean it puts saw down and everything. It's like, I would love to do that. I don't know if I can find someone in our area detailed enough to. To do that, but.

[John]

Yeah, I. I think I feel like Drains has all of the benefits of H Vac. Like high average ticket.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

I guess that's probably the biggest benefit. And a good, good margin. But like Drains has a bigger margin.

[Kelson Carter]

They're just super profitable. I mean, you look at zoom Drains.

[John]

I mean that their model is crazy business. Yeah, it's a crazy business.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. It is amazing.

[John]

Yeah. We really don't talk about it enough on here, honestly. But there is a. There's a company in Pennsylvania and they're like 70 million.

[Kelson Carter]

Oh, wow.

[John]

And it's like almost all drains, really. Mining and excavation. They're a machine.

[Kelson Carter]

They do like municipality stuff or.

[John]

No, that's like residential.

[Kelson Carter]

Huh. Because I know people that make, you know, besides waiting on your money, they get into the municipalities. I have a good friend that's done it and he is feeling it.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

Because they pay, you know, it's your government money going to work, so.

[John]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. Drains is a good business.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

What's the Split out of 11 million, what's drains first?

[Kelson Carter]

1.8. So pretty small.

[John]

Getting there.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

We have a friend in Pro, Doug. I. I think he's 11 or 12. He's like similar size.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

And Mr. Rooter. Yes. Yeah. And I want to say drains is like 6 million or 5. It's like a lot of drains must.

[Kelson Carter]

Probably like Roto Rooter. I mean they have the brand name.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

The first thing you're going to search is Rooter main drain or something.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

But Roto Rooter really has that lockdown for that tag, so.

[John]

So when you think about.

[Kelson Carter]

That's been our hard problem is, you know, differentiating, you know, on Google, like between plumbing, water heaters. You know, I've really focused on water heaters. Now the other Google locations I have, I've started tagging Drains on it. Just trying to help with AdWords stuff, so.

[John]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

When you think about your big opportunity in front of you, does Drains feel like the big opportunity?

[Kelson Carter]

It's the biggest opportunity I have right now.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

I think the next thing is marketing. So sometimes, you know, we hang around the wrong people and you feel like going down different avenues. Like, what, H Vac, you know, adding certain trades. But that sometimes isn't always the answer. Maybe you're not. That you don't have the business you have at full capacity.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So, you know, you see this all the time. With $3 million, companies are like, oh, I'm doing 3 million. I'm gonna add H vac. I'm at electrical. I'm gonna be a jack of all trades. And then they're not making any money. They have no idea what they're doing. They have no focus. I mean, I see it every day.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

I think that's the biggest problem in the industry. They see the flashy lights and they're like, you know, or.

[John]

Or they don't understand scale. Like. And I'm guilty of this, too. Yeah, I think we're guilty of this. Where, like, Drains is a great example. This market has much more to give than a crew and a half.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

And on one hand, like, maybe we're big for the market, but, I mean, we could be running four or five crews in excavation, just like H vac or just like plumbing.

[Kelson Carter]

I mean, how do you know?

[John]

When you're at market cap, though, usually growth dwindles. Now there are, like, tools you can use to measure that. Yeah, but we're not anywhere close.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

But. Yeah, I know we can go. I know we can go further, but I remember we were looking at this business to, like, to buy them. I want to say this is 21 or 22 small business. Like $2 million, two and a half million dollars maybe. And, like, they were convinced that they had 18% market share. And I'm like, we were six times your size.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Like, that would mean that together we are over 100% of the market. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And like, the broker, like, everyone was like, no, we. We have this. I'm like, you can't. Like, you can't possibly have that much. So I. I feel like that's a part of it is, like, unless it's just so hard to imagine what really big looks like.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Which, like, the same for me. Right. Like, I haven't been inside Parker and Sons or Four Seasons. And those are Quarter of a billion dollar businesses in one location.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Like that's hard for me to imagine that we could do that here in Cleveland. I'm sure we probably could. Yeah, it's hard to imagine.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. They've done really good job marketing.

[John]

Yeah, they're killing it. They've done a good job at everything. Like I think just everything.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. So drains is a big opportunity. How do you think you're going to tackle it?

[Kelson Carter]

Create more leads, really? I mean you just got to have those levers to pull. So I would say for me, I mean I have the equipment for the crews already, so I've already invested two.

[John]

Crews or three crews.

[Kelson Carter]

So I actually just bought, since we had such a good June, went out and bought a dump truck. So.

[John]

Nice.

[Kelson Carter]

Got another dump truck coming.

[John]

Like a 350, 755,500.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. Went with the Chevy. Not like a brand loyal person, so. But it was the best deal.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So tracks right now. They got a lot of good deals going on at dealerships, it seems like. So. Yeah, the heavy duty trucks aren't moving as fast as they were now. I mean not around us. So right now. Yeah, I keep getting. You guys use those Chevy Express fans.

[John]

No more.

[Kelson Carter]

I don't know anybody using those.

[John]

Those are not moving.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, I mean I get calls weekly like, hey, you know, you can move.

[John]

These for when the problem is. I'm like, I would love to, but yeah, like none of my guys want to work in them anymore. Like the high roofs, you got to be able to walk in.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

You know, it's just too easy.

[Kelson Carter]

Are you guys like inventorying your trucks very often or.

[John]

So we're doing like basically no. So the only, the only department that has inventory in the trucks is H vac service. And it's like a pack out. There are some consumables inside each truck, but the rest of them are in these Milwaukee packout kits that are on rollers.

[Kelson Carter]

So that's.

[John]

We have. Yeah, we have like 120 of those like kits. So every single install job type has a pack out associated with it or usually multiple. Like there's like 8 water heater packouts and 20h vac install packouts.

[Kelson Carter]

So your plumbers don't they carry stock but it's in a pack out?

[John]

Yeah, we. The best way to think about this is mobile truck stock.

[Kelson Carter]

Okay.

[John]

So like a big pain point that everybody has is, well, how do you count the truck stocks? It's. It's basically like having a hundred different warehouses.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

It gets a Very complicated problem. And. And no one has it figured out. I have seen in person one shop have it figured out.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

And everyone else, like $100 million businesses are like, we have no idea what to do with truck stock. Like, it's a hard problem.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

So it seemed like the easiest way to solve the problem was to get rid of the problem completely so we could put a ton of resources into like, yeah, I can go hire 10 people to count parts every day. Day. Or go buy a bunch of plastic with wheels and just empty the trucks every day. Cycle. Count it, refill it.

[Kelson Carter]

You feel like your guys ever like are somewhere and need that one?

[John]

Sure. Yeah. It's a daily pain.

[Kelson Carter]

Copper 90 or whatever. Yeah.

[John]

I think that's a cost of doing the way I do it. But I think like, even if they didn't have the packouts, they, their truck stock would never have been good enough to not need. Like that still would have happened regardless. I think it actually happens less with packouts. But that could have just been how bad we were at truck stock before.

[Kelson Carter]

Gotcha.

[John]

We were not dialed in at all, which I think we're the best we've ever been.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

So there's still like a, you know, still like daily fires on it, but it feels better. So that's good. How about you guys? It's no secret that my office here in Nashville is almost completely empty. So how do I support my team as well as have great growth metrics? Well, the answer is international contractors with quick staffers. So Quick staffers is a premier staffing agency which will place top tier talent in your business. Built by the trades for the trades. So if you need a csr, they'll be placing a CSR that is highly trained in your business that knows service titan and can book calls effectively. Day 1 Call 1. Affordable, reliable and trained in all of the industry best practices. Quick staffers can help you cut that overhead, boost conversions and scale your business fast. So don't waste another lead. Visit quickstaffers.com and transform your business today.

[Kelson Carter]

I feel like we have pretty dialed in. Besides, we carry about $7,000 on each truck.

[John]

That's a lot we've taught.

[Kelson Carter]

Like I told you earlier we talked about back in the day, I used to pull every tray off. I had a mock truck and I would replace each tray. I didn't want to do it anymore. It's hard to find someone to do it. I mean, the warehouse manager didn't really want to do it.

[John]

Too high lift.

[Kelson Carter]

It is, you know, it's Constant. And that's where maybe, you know, we're not a vmi, so, you know, they've offered to do that for us. We, you know, just haven't gone down that road of being a partner someone. But. Yeah, but we, I mean, generally we, you know, we keep pretty good stock. We run between 18, 9, 18, 20% of budget.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So it's a material that's a machine.

[John]

So we are not there on plumbing. We'd like to get there. I think a part of it is either the markup. It's probably, it's probably the markup.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. What kind of gross margin do you run on water heaters? You know, I don't. Yeah.

[John]

Service specific. I don't like that department is 58 or 6. It's somewhere in there, which feels pretty good. We aim at 60, but we don't typically hit.

[Kelson Carter]

Sometimes it's harder to run. It's like a water here is kind of like an H vac equipment. Sometimes it's higher to run a higher gross margin on it.

[John]

Yeah. It's a high equipment cost. We should combine water heater purchasing. I feel like there has to be a way.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah, No, I totally agree.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

100%.

[John]

Yeah. We have, we have a friend and you know, I were talking about this earlier, but something that's crazy like is seeing what other people pay for stuff.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

And it doesn't. They don't even have to be that big of a difference in business. So I have a. I have a friend in New England and he just bought a new company two weeks ago or three weeks ago. And the water heater price difference is like 50%. Like 50.

[Kelson Carter]

Wow.

[John]

And that like, that's a water heater. That's crazy. That's a huge difference.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah. And I think one of the benefits of scale.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

So do you think you'll be engaging in acquisitions as you sort of move forward? Do you think like you'll be launching new locations? Like, what does this look like in 10 years?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. 10 year vision would be 20 million plus. Just really trying to own the indie market. Just keep penciling away at it. I don't see myself opening. I mean, back in the day, maybe opening another location.

[John]

Hey, you. You cut your teeth in multi locations.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. So. But I. There's not really need with today's world. You can have a huge presence on Google or online and not be, you know, I mean people tell us all the time that they see our trucks everywhere downtown and it's like, I don't have a location there, so I think just having the more trucks on the road helps out better. So just getting better at marketing, knowing what levers to, to push.

[John]

If you're, if you're wanting to impart some wisdom onto some up and coming plumbers, what do you think it is?

[Kelson Carter]

I think my best wisdom is it's always too soon to quit. I think that, you know, starting a company from scratch, I've seen what it takes to grow something into something.

[John]

Yeah. 0 to 11 is crazy.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. So it would have been awesome if it was already 5 million and come in, you know, you kind of already have the leadership somewhat. You know, you can just get the ball rolling a lot easier. But that would be my biggest thing is, you know, there's been plenty of times where, you know, you feel like you can't see the end of the Runway, so. But picking a good team, yeah, very hard to get a good team. Especially, you know, the people that are with you today at that small aren't going to be with you when you're larger. Yeah, very few.

[John]

That's a lesson that.

[Kelson Carter]

That is. The hardest thing is it sucks. So. And especially when they act like they're going to be. I can tell me you guys have said face to face, you know, oh, man, I love this company. I'm never going anywhere.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

You know, next thing you know, it's like, oh, I thought you, you know, you wanted to be a part of something and then see you later. So, yeah, usually if you're having problems with that person now, just cut it. So it's easier to cut your loss now than two years later when you really get cut. So I would say that's my advice, is just move quick. So you got to. Do you have any advice for me?

[John]

Like, you know, keep it simple if you can. Like I have again, Isaac in Chicago, such a great example. I think that the industry is really quick to add multi trade, including us. I think in some ways I was at a disadvantage because when I bought the business, it was a million dollars in sales and it was already two trade. So like, we just, I, maybe I should have shut one down and just kept going on one, but I genuinely think that I would be farther than I am today if we were just one. And I know that just from seeing friends around me who are just one trade, pushing farther and, and executing faster. Like, we get slowed down because we're multi.

[Kelson Carter]

So you brought a great example for me. I mean, what we're doing on the bottom line, I mean, it's, it's amazing. Yeah, it It's a machine. Yeah. So it's just insightful.

[John]

Why. Why hurt that you're right.

[Kelson Carter]

I mean, it's good, it's healthy. So it's like, you know, you could go more, you could do more top line revenue, but at the end of the day, if that healthy bottom line's not there. And I think that the industry's gotten away from talking about the bottom line. You know why? Why? Everybody's always quick to talk about top line. It's like, you see companies that are massive and they're not making any money. It's like I could have $11 million company taking 2 million to the bottom line.

[John]

Yeah. You know, well, yeah, I think that's, that's been kind of illuminating for me is I, I, whenever we're talking to somebody and I'm like, trying to learn.

[Kelson Carter]

Let me see it.

[John]

You. Yeah. Like, hey, before I listen to you, are you doing this better than me? Yeah, like, before I take your advice. Is your advice worth taking?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

Like, are you driving 5% net? So. And you're double my size.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

All right, well, my business is technically worth more than yours, like, in that scenario, so why would I listen? Like, you're not doing it better. Yeah, Yeah. I think, Yeah, I definitely think you got to be careful who you listen to. And I think there's a lot of bullshit out there on the Internet, like, and arguably I'm saying that, so I think just be careful. You listen to. But yeah, you've got a healthy business and I think it's awesome. So I, I like the whole, like, let's double down on our winners. And like, you've got a winners? Yeah, like double, triple down.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

If people want to get a hold.

[Kelson Carter]

Of you, they can. [e-mail].

[John]

That'S easy.

[Kelson Carter]

And yeah, email me. Always open. And I think the next thing I have to say is everybody should really look into John's group and being a part of it. So it's been, well, that's been a.

[John]

Part of, like, let's put our money where our mouth is. Here, here's my piano.

[Kelson Carter]

So I, I've yet to be in a group that sat there and showed. You know, I think if you're going to get practice from someone or coaching or mentoring, you need to see that they're actually living it and they're not just beating their chest on the Internet.

[John]

I think the group is good too.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. Like, no, it's great.

[John]

At. In one of our, I think two calls ago, like, somebody brought up cash in the bank.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah. Yeah, we. Yeah, we had a rude discussion of what everybody had, and it was really good.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So it just makes you. Whether you're ahead or behind, but it gives you insight to where you need to be. Because instead of, you know, just thinking or, you know, not knowing.

[John]

Yeah.

[Kelson Carter]

So it's really good.

[John]

Yeah. I think that's the benefit of, like, a good group, a tight group, but, like, open. How do we learn? I took a ton away from the cash conversation, obviously. And, like, seeing. Like, seeing your plumbing business is the same size as mine. And, like, I was. I was talking with. Talking with my purchasing manager today.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

I was like, well, he's getting 18% materials. We're getting 22. So, like, well, you know, how do we do that? How do we get there?

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

So, yeah, it did inspire.

[Kelson Carter]

Yeah.

[John]

So I think it's great.

[Kelson Carter]

It's awesome.

[John]

If you like what you heard, make sure you contact Kelson. And then check out OWN and operate dot com. Sign up for the newsletter and check out our workshop. I think we have Breaking Five sometime in August, and we're about to launch, I think, a break in 20. So that should be a lot, lot of fun. Thank you.