#230 Is Buying Businesses Overhyped? Why You Should Build Instead

Summary

Owned and Operated - A Plumbing, Electrical, and HVAC Business Growth Podcast
Episode #230: "Is Buying Businesses Overhyped? Why You Should Build Instead"
Release Date: August 5, 2025
Hosts: John Wilson and Jack Carr

---

1. Introduction to Growth Strategies for Home Service Businesses

In Episode #230 of Owned and Operated, hosts John Wilson and Jack Carr delve into the critical topic of business growth within the plumbing, electrical, and HVAC industries. The primary focus centers around evaluating the merits of acquiring existing businesses versus building and expanding organically. The conversation is timely, considering the upcoming multi-market expansion plans for 2026.

John Wilson opens the discussion by highlighting the dual approaches to growth:

"[00:00] John Wilson: 2026 is our multi market year that's coming up quick. There's two different ways that we're thinking about like growth right now."

2. Challenges in Hiring and Seasonality

The hosts address prevalent issues faced by home service businesses, particularly the struggle to balance an abundance of leads with insufficient staffing. Jack Carr shares his experiences with overstaffing during peak seasons, noting:

"[01:40] Jack Carr: ... we're going to finally be staffed up August 1st right when it hits 82 degrees. We missed the heat wave."

John Wilson echoes these challenges, especially emphasizing the difficulties in hiring and retaining staff during business fluctuations:

"[04:52] John Wilson: ... they have to hire like 400 people and then like 200 people like don't work out in the first month."

3. Acquisition Strategies vs. Organic Growth

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to contrasting acquisition strategies with organic growth. John Wilson shares his company's journey through multiple acquisitions:

"[07:27] John Wilson: ... we've acquired our way from 4 million to 10. ... using acquisitions as like a way to take share as fast as possible."

Conversely, Jack Carr discusses his preference for localized acquisitions that align closely with their main operations:

"[20:17] Jack Carr: ... we're still going to buy over 5 million that made sense. ... opposite strategy, like something localized to us where it will meaningfully move our top and bottom line."

4. Multi-Market Expansion and Leadership

The conversation shifts to multi-market expansion, with John Wilson outlining his company's strategic plan for 2026:

"[10:19] John Wilson: ... our vision is to be a hundred million dollar business. ... multi location, multi market ... the biggest companies in the industry are probably multi location."

Jack Carr emphasizes the importance of having a robust leadership team to manage growth across multiple locations:

"[17:17] Jack Carr: ... when do you have a C suite team or when is your top level management team? ... around that 20 to 30 [million dollars in revenue]."

5. The Silver Tsunami and Business Acquisitions

The hosts explore the concept of the "Silver Tsunami," referring to the anticipated transfer of wealth and business ownership from baby boomers to younger generations. John Wilson offers a critical perspective:

"[37:24] John Wilson: ... 94% of businesses listed for sale don't sell."

Jack Carr concurs, highlighting the challenges smaller businesses face in being viable acquisition targets:

"[38:15] Jack Carr: ... the vast majority of the Silver Tsunami is these unviable small businesses that are just going to close shop."

6. Future Outlook: Partnerships and Greenfield Strategies

Looking ahead, both hosts discuss innovative approaches to business growth. John Wilson introduces the idea of forming partnerships to leverage shared resources and expertise:

"[27:14] John Wilson: ... how do we create partnerships? ... bring in SOPs, expertise, buying power."

Jack Carr supports this strategy, noting the benefits of collaborative growth without the complexities of traditional acquisition:

"[29:04] Jack Carr: ... it's like the private equity playbook, but it has an extra step. ... assistance from actual business owners."

7. Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode wraps up, John Wilson and Jack Carr encourage listeners to consider both acquisition and organic growth strategies while emphasizing the importance of having a solid team and strategic planning. They invite listeners to engage with their community and explore partnership opportunities.

"[47:10] Jack Carr: ... head on over to Owned and Operated, check out OAO Pro and sign up for the newsletter. Appreciate it, guys."

Key Takeaways

• Acquisitions vs. Organic Growth: Both strategies have distinct advantages and challenges. Acquisitions can rapidly increase market share, while organic growth ensures stability and leverages existing strengths.

• Hiring and Seasonality: Balancing staffing during peak and off-peak seasons remains a significant challenge for HVAC, plumbing, and electrical businesses.

• Multi-Market Expansion: Expanding into multiple markets requires robust leadership and a strategic approach to maintain growth across locations.

• Silver Tsunami: The anticipated transfer of business ownership presents opportunities but also highlights the difficulties small businesses face in being viable acquisition targets.

• Future Strategies: Forming partnerships and adopting greenfield strategies are emerging as effective methods for sustainable growth.

---

For more insights and to stay updated with the latest strategies in scaling your home service business, visit www.ownedandoperated.com and subscribe to their newsletter.

Transcript

[John Wilson]

2026 is our multi market year that's coming up quick. There's two different ways that we're thinking about like growth right now. What does our core location look like and what does a new market look like? Anyone that's looking at a new opportunity. Population matters a lot. The where really matters and I think there is an advantage to not being the biggest in market. I think a lot of the people that I've talked to that have struggled with green fielding, they all make the same decision and we're going to choose to not make that decision. I'm not ready to like air that one.

[Jack Carr]

John Gatekeeping, the secret sauce here.

[John Wilson]

Foreign.

[Jack Carr]

Welcome back. Welcome back to Owned and Operated. I am Jack Carr, own a few H Vac and plumbing companies in Nashville, Tennessee. We're hoping to hit 6 million in gross revenue this year. What's going on, John?

[John Wilson]

What's up guys? We're trying to introduce ourselves better. So I am John Wilson. I run Wilson Plumbing in Ohio and about 160 people on the team aiming for 30 this year.

[Jack Carr]

What's going on, man? I'm glad we, we got to jump on today. We had a cancellation so. It's a John and Jack episode.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, it's good. It's good. Yeah. What is going on? It's July. It's the end of July and July's been weird. I mean maybe I say that about every month. Do I say that about every month?

[Jack Carr]

I think I feel like we end up do saying that almost about every month.

[John Wilson]

I know.

[Jack Carr]

But yeah, it's been, it's been weird for us as well. It's been. But we're, it's the same stuff as last time. It's like too many leads, not enough people. But we just, we are bringing on our. We're going to finally be staffed up August 1st right when it hits 82 degrees. We missed the heat wave.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

But it is what it is.

[John Wilson]

Are you looking to grow your home service business with a steady and predictable stream of high intent leads? Well, Modernize helps contractors scale with four powerful tools. Inbound calls, live transfers and branded programs. All designed to connect you with homeowners who are ready to start projects right now. They've delivered over 9 million leads, generated 4 billion in revenue and support more than 25 trades across the country. Whether you've maxed out LSAs or you need leads to fill a revenue gap, Modernize is your growth lever from inquiry to install. Click the link below to start driving consistent growth with Modernize. I mean H Vac is So hard to get right. It. It reminds me, I think it's called Perfect Power Wash. But Perfect Power Wash is a really big power washing business near me. They're headquartered like in Akan and I think they're the largest power Washington business in the US it's like 35 or $40 million like single brand. It's ridiculous. 10 or 12 locations and like ridiculous story. We should have them on. But, but they have every spring they have to hire like 400 people and then like 200 people like don't work out in the first month. And, and it's like what happens if.

[Jack Carr]

You miss or, or I don't understand businesses like that.

[John Wilson]

I, I don't either. I mean another even more extreme example of just like, hey, like what happens if you miss like Mike Gurdley if people haven't checked out his stuff? I think it shows the, it's called the Girdley show or something. That's his YouTube channel and it's girdley.com. but he's, he's a cool guy and he, he has a fireworks business.

[Jack Carr]

And like exactly.

[John Wilson]

It's one day like you build up the entire year for one freaking day and if you miss it like that was it.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah. And so I saw this actually a lot when I was in my. The start of my business acquisition journey back in 2022 is because I was looking specifically early on in like Boise, Idaho and Montana and Wyoming and there's such a large snow season there. The. That when I was looking at a paving company, what they do for the back half of the year is they furlough everyone or they, they lay them off, they go and they get government assistance and then start spring, they come back to the company. But like it's such an it like exceptionally seasonal business that I always have to go like what happens if you don't get those people at the start of spring? Like you just don't operate. It's, it's just there's such or like.

[John Wilson]

Lower, you know, capability. Well, we were talking to our friend. You and I are in this chat with our friend Yossi from Monkey Wrench and it's like he said it was 60 or 70 or something in LA right now and like they're having a summer that isn't a. Like it didn't arrive and he sent us a screenshot from LinkedIn or something and it's like it's this 40 person h vac service team like being trained because they don't have. There's nothing else going on I, I do think.

[Jack Carr]

Which is wild.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, it's wild. I think, like, H Vac is weather enhanced. Like, there are things you can do, but it is a tough game where, like, like, I, I don't. We didn't nail the summer either for H Vac. Now, granted, we still grew a lot over last year, which is cool, but we, we didn't do what we thought we were gonna do, and we didn't execute what we could have done, so. So that was sort of disappointing.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah. I was, I was laughing the other day. I was talking to somebody who, who I was telling this to. I was like, I'm so disappointed our team didn't do it and we didn't hit that numbers.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

And he's like, he said, jack, aren't you, like, 60 up year over year? And I went, yeah, I'm upset about being 60 up over last year. So I tried to put it in perspective, but definitely, I, I just, I'm always blown away by those kind of, like, extreme hiring circumstances where you have to do it and you have to get it right, and then the back half of the year, you just let everyone go. And in the next year, I mean, I assume a good portion of people come back if they like the job, but I mean, talk about a weird business to have to run is like, hey, I need to hire 400 people in two months and train them.

[John Wilson]

No, I, I, I totally agree. I totally agree.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah. I mean, speaking of acquisitions. So we are talking to two different groups right now, and I know that you've grown. You've had, what, 10 acquisitions?

[John Wilson]

Yes. I think my 10th one was, like, kind of fake.

[Jack Carr]

Those damn fake acquisitions didn't match it.

[John Wilson]

Well, it doesn't feel like this is.

[Jack Carr]

Is it not a real business? Because it was too small.

[John Wilson]

It was like a, it was a revenueless, like, phone number. So it, it's sort of like, I almost don't want to count it as my 10th, cuz like, 10 feels like, know, oh, my 10 should be big or something. But it was like, it was $9,000. Right. But yeah, no, we've acquired 10 over the years.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah. Are you, Are you guys, like, talking about, like, growth and acquisitions? Are you guys still. I know at one point in, in your journey, you kind of slowed that down.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Just because go growing organically at the same cost with the market the way it is, it felt like almost, at least from, from my point of view, that you had more opportunity to grow your systems organically than to try and smash in, like, a 2 or 3 million dollar company that really doesn't change your top line all that much or your bottom line and mostly causes headaches. Where are you guys sitting now with that? Or what's the, what is your, your plan and outlook going forward?

[John Wilson]

Yeah, this is something we've thought a ton about. I do think the economics of talking acquisitions do get like, they just get different the, the bigger you get in one location. So I think that's, there's two different ways that we're thinking about like growth right now. Like, what does our core location look like, which we only have one right now, and what does a new market look like and how do we think about each one? Like, we acquired our way from 4 million to, to 10. And I think there's a lot that I could say about that. Good, bad, hard, whatever. But it got us from 4 to 10. And I do think that there is a solid argument of using acquisitions as like a way to take share as fast as possible. Like, if I went into a new market today and I either launched or acquired, I would run a localized rollup strategy to get them to like 10 to 20 million dollars revenue as fast as possible. Like, could we do that in the first two years, three years? So how do you, how do you like sort of break into that size? You know, we've talked about like placing senior leadership team. How do you get into the size where you can place really talented leaders that can run with a meaningful business?

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, I think a good example of this too is. So I've just had this conversation. So one of our, our team members is from an Apex or is an Apex company in the area. And he, he's one of the people who leaves Apex because it's Apex.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

And what he was saying is, right, that they went in and did this, the acquisition strategy. Right. They went in, they bought a really good company. They probably paid a 67x on, you know, 2 to 3 million dollars in EBITDA. And so they're, they're walking in and hitting that number straight out of the gate of, hey, we're doing 10 to 20 top line.

[John Wilson]

Yep.

[Jack Carr]

Day one, very difficult because there's a lot of change that happens, a lot of turnover, etc. Etc. And then there's other companies like Hoffman Brothers and Cool Ray who did the opposite. And they kind of have two different diverting paths. Right. Like Cool Ray came in, spent something crazy, like 25 million.

[John Wilson]

25 or $30 million.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, yeah. To reach their first couple million in EBITDA, if I remember correctly. And Hoffman's been pretty open about his is he spent three to hit 15 in top line.

[John Wilson]

Right.

[Jack Carr]

So like there's, there's multiple types of greenway or greenfield strategies on top of it. So you know, I'm curious because there's, there's like multiple. A multitude of different ways to, to run acquisitions or greenfield. And so I'm curious. So are you guys. Now my take is that you guys are starting to think about moving into different markets.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. So our plan for a while now has been 2026 is our multi market year.

[Jack Carr]

That's coming up quick.

[John Wilson]

It's coming up quick. It's coming up quick. I have a lot of thoughts on this and I will share most of them. I think the why is important. Like our vision is to be a hundred million dollar business. We think that it's, we will accelerate by going to new markets. There is a challenge with being the biggest in market that I don't think gets talked about very often because maybe, I mean there's not that many biggest in markets I guess but like if you're biggest in market, like there's a target, they're like everyone's chasing you. And I think there is an advantage to not being the biggest in market. I think there is an advantage to being but I also think there's an advantage to not. So it sounds attractive to like be someone that is getting market share inside somewhere new. I think it'll accelerate growth if done well. It obviously can slow growth if done badly. I think it gives our team opportunity to grow. I think there's a lot of wins and you know, over the last, if you've been following the show for really the last year and a half, like in my head we started talking about multi location, multi market about a year ago and we at the time said hey, let's do this in 2026. Like we roughly knew that the timeline we were going to be working with and I've just been spending a lot of time talking to multi unit operators basically as often as I could to try to understand like what were the pitfalls, what worked, what didn't work. Would you do it again? And time and time again. At the end of the day the biggest companies in the industry are probably multi location. There are some exceptions to that. Parker & Sons, four seasons, like there.

[Jack Carr]

Are a four seasons.

[John Wilson]

There's a couple exceptions to this rule. But like those are the exceptions and what seems to be the most reliable path to growth is multi market. And, and at once we sort of nailed that down. The question became okay, where and when, like where, where are we going to, where are we going to do this? Are we going to do this in these tiny markets that we can own very quickly or are we going to do this in extremely competitive markets like Columbus? Like Columbus is like ridiculous right now.

[Jack Carr]

That was going to be my question for you. Like if, if we can dig in a little bit on this is what I've been receiving as we were running the Jack Acquisitions podcast specifically from, from H Vac and try Tri Trades operators is what we're seeing is like this new thesis strategy that's coming out and I've seen it about four or five times with different individuals and they have this belief and I've, I've been very upfront with them. So this, this shouldn't be a shock. If, if you're listening and you're hearing this for the first time and you're. One of them is like I keep telling them, I said, you know, this is a really difficult path because the idea is that, hey, I'm gonna buy small H vac companies in tertiary cities. I'm gonna buy like two or three or four of them and run them. Because from a, from a standpoint, like Peterman Brothers, right, Like it makes sense for him to do that. He has the infrastructure to be able to handle that. But like the idea of a roll up strategy in tertiary markets to me sounds like a nightmare. Just because, like for me to do it, for me to do it, I would have to go and find like really good operators in very small towns. Like that's what I say to them. You need to go find a really good operator in a small town. Labor's a nightmare. Marketing's easier, I would assume. Yeah, like I keep coming back to this, this idea that people keep bringing up to me and I'm going, hey, where is this coming from? Because I don't hear it from any of the gurus. And B, unless you have like a really big.

[John Wilson]

I think it's easier or it looks easier at the offset, like who's who? Well, if, if we're acquiring, who's gonna buy them? Right? Like I, I see all these deals. There's a, there's a 5 million dollar H vac business that is for sale and like who's gonna buy it? Like it's in the literal middle of nowhere. And if I was gonna buy this, like, I'm not near a big city. They're the biggest in their market and their market is probably like 20,000 people. Like, I can't get bigger than 5 or 6 million dollars. And I like that for, for a private equity or for a serial acquirer or for, for me and anyone that's looking at a new opportunity. Population matters a lot. Like what's the population? What's the demographics? Like the where really matters. So I think. But it looks easier because it's probably cheaper deals and like it's easier to own a market if there's no one's there. But I think the big question you have to ask yourself is that market worth owning? Is no one there? Because it's not good. And I think like we're, we're miss like if the, the first thing is oh yeah, I can own this market. It's really easy. The second question you should be asking yourself is why is it so easy?

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So how are you then as you're talking about this, looking at that, that question. I mean I think you answered it for the most part. But moving forward like where's your thesis and strategy on yeah. What you're looking for and kind of what's that balance? Because it's a, it's a scale. Right. It's like it's a moving scale on size of market to competition.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. So we're following a pretty well documented playbook at this point. So we've talked to dozens of multi unit operators either on this show or offline and most of the feedback is the same. Hey, I went multi unit at 20 to 30 million dollars and most of it's like can, do I have the team to do it? Do I have the accounting team? Do I have the HR and recruitment team? Do I have a good onboarding process? Like is my business built to scale? Yes. No, some people do it before that. Like we did it before that. You know we bought these, those businesses in 2021. We were running five locations for a while and we, it was not good. Like we didn't do a good job of it. So I really have a healthy respect for multilocation because we did it for two and a half years. So yeah, I think but running in between 20 and 30, that's us a, a very common size to go multi market. There are exceptions again like Chris Hoffman ran up to 80 before running to multi market. Yeah, there's a lot of people.

[Jack Carr]

Running multi.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, well, well Peterman got. They did it at 15 so they did it really small.

[Jack Carr]

Oh they, I thought they did it a lot later.

[John Wilson]

No, no, eco ran at 30. Tommy I think was 20ish. Like it, you know but it's, it's roughly if we, instead of revenue, if we look at like what does the business look like at the time that they went multi, the characteristics are roughly the same. Hey, I've got a good finance team, I've got a good HR team, I have a good sales process. Like I have the bones of a good business and what would help me more now is more distribution which.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, I mean that makes sense based on like the episode we did a few weeks ago that where was like hey when do you, when do you have a C suite team or when is your top level management team? And it's around that 20 to 30. So if you're able to get that top level management team that can handle most of the daily ops at a singular location and then have the bandwidth to go into multi location. Yeah it may be a good idea.

[John Wilson]

And I think it can be a force multiplier. We haven't had Rich Jordan on for a while but for him Multi market has been a real force multiplier. Like he is growing faster than he would have otherwise because he has two locations growing at Steam 3 now. Three now. Yeah. Which is, that's awesome. Right? I think that's amazing.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

And I think he's about to clip his first 3 million dollar month. I don't know if he wants me to say that but like that's, that's amazing. And a big part of the success there is the, is the multi location. So, so we're, we're running a well documented playbook. A lot of the people that have come before us also spread out at that 20 to 30. I think that revenue matters less. Like what one company's 20 to 30 look like compared to mine. It's almost irrelevant. Like what does your leadership team look like? Are they capable of running the business without you? Can you disappear for a month if you've got that type of leadership team like you are capable of taking on.

[Jack Carr]

New opportunities and, and then, so for you specifically, I mean not to, to use this as like a plug but like what are you looking for now? Going into something like where, where's. Once again what's your theory? Where's. Where are you actively.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

And openly participating.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

In looking for things.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. So we've got, we have two.

[Jack Carr]

Well if we want to step back. So just not to make this show all about me, which I'm going to do here, but like the opposite of what we're saying and I think what most of our listeners are going to be running into is like we're still focused on the opposite. So all of our acquisitions are within an hour of our main location so that we can tuck it in to our main brand and our main name so that we're running those efficiencies of scale. And really, when we're buying a three or four million dollars company, we're merging the two, taking the people, the systems. We're still utilizing a lot of what the company is providing to try and grow us to that 10 like you guys did.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

So just to be really clear, like this is the opposite strategy. We are not going to.

[John Wilson]

We have.

[Jack Carr]

We've looked at a company we got really close to buying one three hours away. But it's such a big lift. Yep. Such a huge lift that we realized later on that we ended up backing out of the deal.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Also some SBA rule changes made it so it wasn't as valuable because we were going to get the business essentially from a cash flow free standpoint or a debt debt payment free standpoint. But it didn't work out. That all being said, like opposite strategy, like something localized to us where it will meaningfully move our top and bottom line, give us trucks, give us employees and be able or maybe even a new vertical that'll be able to push us into more revenue in our singular location.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. So yeah, we're thinking about this in three different ways. So in, in our core location, like I would. We're still growing organic. Organically. We're still growing a lot organically. Like 25ish percent I think, year to date. So we. That feels healthy and that feels good. We're going to keep pushing on that. I would look at a local deal if it moved the needle. Like if I found it'd probably have to be north of $5 million for me to get excited. I would get very excited for a north of 10. But there's like two of those that aren't PE owned. Maybe one. Like there's just not a lot. If you're an H vac tech plumber or electrician, you know that time is money and Supply House gets it. With over 280,000 products from 500 trusted brands, they make it easy to get what you need fast. Their TradeMaster program gives you exclusive perks like better pricing, free shipping and priority support. Right now you can get 5% off your first order at supplyhouse.com with code SH5SUPPLY HOUSE. Real people, real service.

[Jack Carr]

And I mean, you run a tri trade business. Is there any difference for you to like bolster your H vac Department versus your plumbing department or just. You don't care. It would just be any deal over 5 million that made sense.

[John Wilson]

I would look at any deal over five. That made sense. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think, like, yeah. So core market, we're really just focused on organic. And the way I'm thinking about this is I have this really, like, competent team that has a plan, a roadmap, and they're doing a great job. I don't want to break that. And I think that's been what I've been saying over the past two years is like, hey, we're not really thinking about deals because we're growing like crazy organic. And I don't want to break that.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[John Wilson]

I think there is a moment where you can run organic and inorganic and we're. We're approaching that moment again. That's the first way is like, inside our current market. The next one is Greenfield. I've talked to enough people now. Obviously, I have not done this, so, like, you know, theory counts for, like, I'll. I'll tell you what actually happened once we did it. But, like, you know, when I look at what other people have done to launch a Greenfield, and I. And I just like, sort of look inside our own business, I can identify what look like some pretty clear opportunities.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, I would agree to that because somebody asked me the other day, like, jack, you know, startup again versus purchase. That question comes up a lot, right? Buy versus build. And the. The answer now is different than the answer two years ago. So once you know how to run an H vac or plumbing or electrical business, the answer becomes different because I. I'm pretty sure that if I was forced to do it again with the same knowledge I had now, I would go greenfield, maybe just because, like, I know how to market it. I could definitely hire and I could definitely drive a million dollars in revenue in the first year. Like, nobody's business. That being said, three years ago, I could not. Yeah, Like, I needed that to be able to start. So it's a kind of a loaded question for new. New buyers, because I don't think it's the same unless you've no.

[John Wilson]

Ran an hr and also, like, what's the team? So for us, like, you know, I've spent the last 12 months, like, talking to everyone that I could on. On show and offline. Hey, how did you launch this location? What did marketing spend look like? What did team look like? Most of those conversations are public. Like, you can just go back through the podcast and like, you'll get an idea of where. What we're about to do. But I. What I've continued to learn is it is. It's the team. It's built on the team. And we can only greenfield. I'm sure we could greenfield and figure it out. Otherwise, other people have, obviously. But the way I feel comfortable is I have the team that we know how to drive leads, we know how to recruit, we know how to onboard, we know how to sell, we know how to answer and book calls. Like, we've got a great team. We have a great system now, like, let's just go get more gross profit dollars. So green fielding looks easier to me because we can check a lot of the boxes. Hey, you know, we had premier home pros and they talked a lot about working with their lead partners and like, how do they look at new markets? How do they assess, like, which one to do, at what point? That's the process we're in right now. We're talking to our lead partners, we're checking in with our. With our marketing team. We're. We're finding what are the opportunities around us that have the leads that we can buy easily and how do we. And does it have the talent pool that we need? So, like, green fielding does feel not easy, but, like, straightforward. I think a lot of the people that I've talked to that have struggled with greenfielding make some decision. Like, they all make the same decision. And we're going to choose to not make that decision, which is. I'm not ready to, like, air that one. But it's how they approach leads, basically. So we're going to be approach. Like, I've talked to people that do this really well and execute at a high level. I've done this with people that run a big business, but they don't execute this well.

[Jack Carr]

And gatekeeping the secret sauce here.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, I think, like, that's fair because.

[Jack Carr]

You guys are about to do it.

[John Wilson]

So I'm not about to do it. So we'll find out if it works. If it works, we'll talk more openly about it. My concern with. I'm always afraid to, like, give a recommendation for something I haven't tried. Like, anything we talk about, we've tried. So, like, I don't want somebody to, like, go, you know, take what I'm saying is a wreck and ruin their life. So, yeah, so that's that. And my third one, which I think I'm the most excited about is, like, partnerships. Like, how do we create partnerships? So, you know what I'm Really. I'm taking a lot of inspiration again from Rich Jordan, good friend of mine. He's come on the show a few times, so just search and shout our feed. And I think he's done a. What make. What made him a grow as fast as he did was he partnered up with the right people, and they each owned a market and they each owned a location, and that was. It's inspiring. Like, they're growing like crazy. And I think that that level of partnership is really good. So as we're thinking about more locations, a big thing that's on our brain is, yes, how do we Greenfield, and how do we just keep. Keep on the plan and continue executing at a high level? But also how do we go partner with other people out there that are running good businesses, like 5 million and up in plumbing, H vac, electric? And how can we bring the playbook? How do we bring SOPs? How do we bring, like, our team's expertise, our buying power? How do we bring all of that to a partner? So that's a big way that we're thinking about the next 12 months, too, is like, how do we partner up with people? They still run that market, and we just provide them a ton of resources and we grow.

[Jack Carr]

Which is interesting. It's like the private equity playbook, but it has an extra step. And that extra step is you're not somebody in a suit that works for a. Yeah, you know, it's not somebody in a suit that works up in Chicago or New York. It's like, hey, we actually own a business. So this is the assistance that you're getting. Because a lot of times what I hear from owners that sell and then continue to operate on that playbook is they're like, yeah, like, they help me buy trucks, but they help me buy trucks, or they help me with this small issue and some insurance and things like that, like the. The really. The admin tasks. But a lot of what I needed wasn't admin tasks. It was, hey, I need help, like, with strategy and running the business and a team that I can work with. And so that. That's a really interesting way to, you know, attack this problem.

[John Wilson]

I think so, Yeah. I think. I mean, Rich has been an inspiration for it. Like, seeing what he's done has been amazing.

[Jack Carr]

And you get good operators, right? Like, that's the. One of the hardest parts, dude.

[John Wilson]

That's the hardest part. Like, as I think about, like, so when I think about Greenfield, what's. What is nice about that is like, hey, I have the team and we have a leadership pipeline, we have a leadership development. I can replicate leaders, which is like the first and foremost biggest problem you're going to have with any like expansion is how do you drive new leaders into the business. But like partnership sort of does similar. You get someone bought in, you get someone that can run this business and that you can grow it together. So yeah, it does solve kind of a, a major issue because if I'm greenfielding it's going to be within driving distance. Partnerships give me the ability to go anywhere and as long as it like, does it make sense? Is it easy to get to if there was a problem or like on a monthly basis or something? Or how do we, how does HR go there or accounting go there or whatever has to happen. But like does the location make sense? And if it does, then like, yeah, we can, it becomes a bigger win.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, no, that completely agree.

[John Wilson]

Well, the, and the economics are dumb too. Like we've seen, you know, we, we do like open book, you know, we have this community. It's like a pure pro. Yeah. OEO pro. It's a peer group community. It's good. Like we're adding a, like I think two people a week right now, which is a lot of fun. And one of the things we do is we do open book financials. Like literally here's the P and L and what continues to be just wild and, and I'm sure it gets even. Like I'm saying this from my perspective, but like what's it like for Apex, you know, like, what's it like for the biggest in our industry? But I'll look at people's like water heater pricing and I'll look at their H vac pricing and we literally buy 50% less. And I'm sure Apex buys 50% less than us. Right. Like, but the economics of buying is crazy. So when you start like bringing in like, hey, how do we add this company, this revenue and how do we reduce their cogs? Like crazy. What if we could give a 30% or 40% overall material cut? What if we could drive more leads because we're best in class at it. What if we could save on all your software? What if all of that and the business went from a 10% profit to 20 or 25 and you still had a portion of that.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, because you're, you're able to, right, you're able to cut the gross margin down off the top. Right, right away with, with material costs. So now your gross margins jumping, which is absolutely huge. That's One of the hardest things to do.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Because especially if you're like 50. 50% on gross margin cost, like, oh, it's.

[John Wilson]

It is ridiculous. Like, we're seeing what water heater pricing, 50. And I'm like, this is crazy.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah. And then on the bottom line, so you've just like boost gross margin by a ton. And then on the bottom line, you're like, oh, actually here, we'll help you with hiring, we'll help you with hr, we'll help you with this, we'll help you with that. And then all of a sudden, now you, like, your. My service titan fee per person went from 300 to 180. Now you're like, okay, I've just cut all my expenses by about 20, 25% as well. So you have gross margin inflation and you have cuts in your. Your bottom line. And so, like, that has to drive your net. Like, how good would that feel if tomorrow in your business you're just like, ah, yeah, like now we have, you know, a couple hundred thousand, maybe 500,000 more on the bottom line per year that we can spend. Because that's like cash.

[John Wilson]

It's. Yes. Real. Like, it's real. And I think, yeah, we've gotten a lot more conviction around this the more frankly that we've seen Rich grow. Like, I brought this idea up in December of last year. I don't, I don't remember. I don't know if you remember that, but like, we talked about this, like, partnership model on the podcast and like, people texted about it. Like, I. It's. It makes sense. It makes sense.

[Jack Carr]

Cut that. Cut that. We don't want to be Spotify, but.

[John Wilson]

Like, it makes a lot of sense. So. So that's, that's something that we're working on really, over the next 12 months. Like, hey, we're looking for people that want to partner with us. I don't know. So if anybody wants to.

[Jack Carr]

Do you have any specific. Do you have any specific regions that you're working? Because a lot of people like to work only in the Southeast or Southwest or Midwest. You know, I mean, you're targeting.

[John Wilson]

We're aiming pretty much Midwest. I don't think the Carolinas. I think that's like, too east, probably, but like, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania is kind of both. Maybe Midwest gets cut. There's a portion of Pennsylvania that's absolutely Midwest.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

Illinois, Tennessee, Kentucky, maybe Minnesota, Wisconsin, but yeah, like Midwest, basically. But yeah, I think we're able to bring. I think we're able to bring a lot to it. But that's something that I'm getting more and more excited about. The more our leadership team takes the bandwidth off. Just seeing how fast we can grow together is like oh my God, this, this makes a lot of sense. And then can we, how fast? Hey, if that, if that company's 5 or 10 million, how do we come in? How do we change the whole P and L take it from 8 or 10% profit to 20 and then how do we execute a roll up strategy around them and build them up to 20 to 30 million top line in like a year or two and like that's the game, that's, that's the plan. So how do we do that and then how do we then do greenfields from them? The same as into little sub markets.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah. As you would do with yours pretty much. So that's, I mean that's, that's why I ask about kind of geolocation and where you're focused because like that's what it's, it would be, makes more sense to do that strategy specifically in like a series of ten states close by.

[John Wilson]

Each other versus one in California versus.

[Jack Carr]

One in California in Southern California and one all the way up in Maine. Like the, the green fields just mean less and yeah, it just means less altogether. And so I mean, yeah, it's a lot less efficiency.

[John Wilson]

And the way we're thinking about it, like I don't want to go too far because I do think like how easy is it to get there?

[Jack Carr]

I was going to say like an hour long plane ride is, is not a bunch of lift compared to like a six hour long play ride with a bunch of time zone changes and such. And, and then so like on the same topic, you know, we, we talk about a lot and we hear it about it a lot. But from, from as you're starting to move into this and as you're seeing the businesses that are for sale and potentially looking at them do what, what's your feeling on, on the idea of the Silver Tsunami?

[John Wilson]

Oh, that's a term. Maybe I'm not, I probably don't follow the right people because that's a term I don't feel like I hear a lot anymore.

[Jack Carr]

It's still popping. I mean we still, I still see it from some of the gurus I wrote. I mean I, I did a long episode about this Silver Tsunami about a year ago and it, it still gets quite a bit of views just because people find either maybe evergreen content talking about it or there's new creators that come out all the time. I. I don't want to influence you, though.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do I think of the Silver Tsunami? Well, so I think. Let's define the Silver Tsunami. So the Silver Tsunami, there was some article like five or six years ago or like a series of articles, and it said, hey, there's this thing coming where it's the greatest transfer of wealth in history, and that's the Silver Tsunami. And the idea is that baby boomers are the most concentrated, like, section of wealth that's ever existed. That generation. They're getting ready to die simultaneously with.

[Jack Carr]

The largest group of business owners. Because then sub that to millennials, less people.

[John Wilson]

Well, and real estate owners. It was real estate, stocks and business. So the idea is, what happens to all that property? Where does it go? And it was like $10 trillion was like supposedly the number. Right.

[Jack Carr]

Correct. In assets. So it's like, where are their assets being sent to? How are they being divided up as they start to move into retirement?

[John Wilson]

Yeah. Like, I guess my take is there's certainly a lot of acquisition activity. I'm sure that acquisitions are more pop. It's. It seems like small business acquisitions are a really popular asset class that didn't exist 10 years ago or it probably did, but like, not to this extent, but I bet, I think I did see a chart that like SBA data, like, disproved that thought. Like sba, like loans have like, roughly stayed the same. Right. So, but that's just a feeling probably because the bubble I'm in is like, oh, it's increasing, but like SBA is like, no, it's like basically the same. So I guess my thought is, isn't the, isn't the statistic like 94% of businesses listed for sale don't sell?

[Jack Carr]

I don't know if it's 94, but it's very, very high.

[John Wilson]

It's high. And so I think that is a part of it. Like, some of these businesses aren't good. Like, they're just not. And are they really going to sell or are they just going to be displaced? Because what I've continued to see, and I know that this is coming for me eventually too, but like, innovation catches up to us all. And are you, does that business transact or does that business just decline and a new up and comer takes that share? And that just like, from what I see in the industry, that is what I tend to see more of.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, no, that, that's super interesting. And that's why I'm asking you is because you get a, a bit more of an in industry look. And what I've noticed from my in industry look is that the big companies, for the most part, like, obviously there's going to be some outliers. There's also going to be some confirmation bias in, in, in the sense that like the people that we talk to are going to be the young owners, naturally. But I think if you were to look at the large businesses on the whole, they've already changed hands. Like they, a lot of them have changed hands to a younger ownership or operation group. And what is left out there is most of the Silver Tsunami is a subsect of the business buying group that is actually not viable. They are 1 million haven't gotten there yet. 1 million, 1.5 million top line businesses. And they just have very little value in comparison to what they think they're worth. So rather, you know, these guys have put, you know, 40 years worth of blood, sweat and tears into this business. And you know, realistically, the $20,000 in EBITDA that they have is just not worth the million dollars that they believe it's worth based on their, you know, equity, personal sweat equity into the business. And so unfortunately, like that's, I, at least in home services, from what we've seen, like that is the vast majority of the Silver Tsunami is these unviable small businesses that are just going to close shop and then the ones that are viable, I mean, we've seen it over the last six years. Quite a few of them have been snapped up already. So they're no longer.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. And I do think SBA is a bad measurement of this because I think you're right, like SBA data is like, hey, not much has changed, but PE is not sba and PE is obviously very active in a ton of different asset classes. So I think you're probably right. We're like, we are. I mean, we're in it in some version of it. But a lot of it didn't go to Millennials or Gen X or whatever. It went to institutional.

[Jack Carr]

Exactly. A lot of it went institutional and it went early on. And so what we're dealing with now is, is, you know, the, the article came out six years ago, but people are still pushing the idea. And I think a lot of the idea is like, well, there's still 52 million businesses in the trades that are up and available. And it's like, well, yeah, those 52 million businesses are not really viable businesses. Most of them, like, I mean, even yourself, like your boomer parents have traded your business to you. The Younger generation. Same with Hoffman. Same with like all of these large companies is there was a point in time where they, they traded early on right when that article came out. And then institutions got involved, swooped up quite a bit of the rest. And now we're sitting on a subsect of just a very small amount of viable businesses that would actually make sense to purchase. And now with all the SBA rules changing on June 1, making sure that you have to have licenses and all this kind of other stuff, like it's just making it less viable to even buy an H Vac business or a licensed business. And even crazier, John, is like what, what I've been chewing on quite a bit is if, if you're say you're running a five million dollar electrical, plumbing and H Vac business, right, it's a small business but it's buyable, right. It has really three small verticals. Whatever, whatever, whatever. But the fact that you need your H Vac, plumbing and electrical license to go and actually buy that business makes it almost impossible if you don't already have at least the majority of those licenses or you have the ability to get them like a private equity group. So it takes out like this subsect of the silver tsunami in the sense that like now even more people can't buy because they're multi trade businesses.

[John Wilson]

If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that we've been big fans of service scalers. One of the things that they just dropped that we are really excited about is a pay per lead program program. So what they help you do is they help you directly gain access to leads and scale up your lead partner program. Go to service scalers.com and say we sent you. I think that makes sense. I, I think what, what's going to be really interesting would I, I think about this a lot because, because we're in this like we're in all these groups and all these businesses are like fast growing, right? Like we have a lot of, I have a lot of friends that I like in the industry that I made under 10 million of revenue. And like we're all in the 20s, 30s, 40s now. Like we're moving. Yeah, we'll get there. But, but it, it, I just think it's kind of interesting because it, there was, I agree 5 years ago there was this moment where basically every big business sold. But what is starting to happen is that pool and the pool emptied. So like how many businesses in the US are there above 20 or 30 million that are still private. Right. Like, it's not a lot. Like people have made guesses at it, but like it's under a hundred. Is, is like the guests that I usually see, some people are more aggressive and they say under 50. I. I don't think that's right. But like it's not a lot. But what I'm starting to see is as these smaller, more it. Like in innovative businesses are growing, they're taking that spot. And I think what's going to be interesting is the next wave.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

Because I think we're going to in the next five years. Hey, that pool emptied. All of the businesses north of 20 sold. But now that pool got refilled and it's just this cycle because there's way more investment, there's way more eyeballs, there's way more tech solutions every fricking day inside the trade. So the trades is still like experiencing a lot of growth. So yeah, I think all these businesses are still growing really fast. And I think like all the people that traded, all the big boys, the legacy winners, the cool rays of the world, like they're quickly being replaced by the new generation. And then in 10 years it'll probably be, it'll probably happen again.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, super interesting. Yeah, I mean I, I don't disagree with you there at all because that's what we've seen in every other industry as well. So like if you grow a giant drink or chip manufacturer, you know you're going to get bought up by Frito lay in about five to 10 years. Like so the, the younger, more innovative companies who are doing new solutions and kind of pioneering, you just keep feeding the machine and they keep feeding the large machine.

[John Wilson]

The machine. Because you know what? I see another. Yeah, that's a really great example because what it is there an institutional buyer at the end of the line. And that's how, that's how like you, you should be thinking about these opportunities. Like in pest control there's. There's an institutional buyer at the end. Like there's public pest control companies and they'll buy you. So a lot of. And plumbing H vac electric is approaching that where there is now just a pipeline so you can just grow and grow and there will always be new entrants to sort of like the larger size where they can just sell to some institutional buyer because there's more and more of those institutional buyers now. So I do think. Yeah, it'll be interesting because I think you're right. I think we went through a lot of the silver tsunami already. And what we're getting ready to experience is like the millennial tsunami. Yeah, like people that bought their business that are a millennial 10 years ago and hey, that business is $50 million of revenue now. And what happens?

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, they've gotten to a point where they can either continue running these difficult businesses or they can exit. So I agree. I think that the Silver tsunami is changing into a sort of a re pooling of a millennial tsunami that we'll see here in the near future. Probably the next 10 years. The next decade will get a big portion of that as people want to retire. Retire at 45. That's the goal.

[John Wilson]

Let's go.

[Jack Carr]

Half of us can't retire because we're just all type A personalities and super obsessive about everything.

[John Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

I'm speaking for everyone out there.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, I think you have to be to get to here.

[Jack Carr]

So sweet. That. That's awesome. This is a good, good conversation. I love it.

[John Wilson]

I will plug myself really quick. If you want to partner with me, you should reach out info at Owned and Operated or DM me on any of the platforms I'm on. But yeah, we're looking. I think it's fun. I'm ready for the next stage. I'm ready for the next stage.

[Jack Carr]

Awesome.

[John Wilson]

Like, do business with friends.

[Jack Carr]

Do business with friends. 2026. I'm in 26 LFG. Awesome. Well, thank you guys for listening. We if this is this going to launch before the workshop? Maybe.

[John Wilson]

I don't know. Yeah, workshops in a couple of weeks. Probably.

[Jack Carr]

Probably not. So we won't plug that. But head on over to Owned and Operated, check out OAO Pro and sign up for the newsletter for the newsletter. Appreciate it, guys.

[John Wilson]

Like and sub. Let's go.