#242 What Every Contractor Needs to Know to Make the Jump to CEO

Summary

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Owned and Operated – Episode #242 Summary

"What Every Contractor Needs to Know to Make the Jump to CEO"

Release Date: September 16, 2025
Host: John Wilson
Co-host: Jack Carr

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Episode Overview

In this episode, John Wilson and Jack Carr break down the journey contractors must undergo to transition from "doing the work" in their businesses to truly leading as CEOs. They demystify what it means to run and scale a trades-based business (plumbing, electrical, HVAC), laying out the four key stages of progression for owners. Drawing from their own paths, the hosts describe the practical, fiscal, and mental challenges at each stage and stress the changes in mindset and structure leaders need to scale up and avoid common pitfalls.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Does It Mean to Be a CEO? (00:00–02:00)

• Jack Carr opens by noting that being a true CEO is different from "just working a W2" (00:00).
• John Wilson reflects that he only began to feel like a CEO when he was leading 150–160 people and had multi-layered teams (00:05).
• Jack Carr admits: "I don't think I'm a CEO. People ask me that and I actually don't know my title. I think it's founder ... but it's not CEO yet." (01:15)

Memorable Quote:
"It's a weird title to give yourself." — John Wilson (12:29)

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2. The Four Stages to Becoming a CEO (02:00–11:13)

Stage 1: Owner-Operator – Doing the Work (02:00–02:57)

• You start your own business (or buy one) and perform the primary service yourself.
• "If it's HVAC, if it's an accounting firm, if you're a baker—you're doing the work on the day." — John Wilson (02:45)

Stage 2: Manager – Hiring Help and Managing People (03:07–04:44)

• First step out is hiring help; you move from execution to managing the people who execute.
• Pitfall: Many owners get stuck here, torn between doing the work themselves and switching to managing others.
• "Stage two is probably one of the hardest stages to get out of ... You don't know whether you should still be in the field, or moving into a managerial role." — Jack Carr (04:04)

Stage 3: Managing Managers and Building Infrastructure (05:23–10:10)

• Hire your first manager, add office and support functions, introduce formal infrastructure.
• "You're adding more executors ... then moving from stage two to stage three is the first time you introduce infrastructure. And infrastructure has cost." — John Wilson (05:23)
• Fiscally challenging: managers and support do not directly produce revenue, yet costs increase (05:56–06:04).
• "This is the owner's hell. You've just stepped straight into owner's hell ... you're trying to grow from that one to three mark and cash is tight." — Jack Carr (07:31)

Stage 4: Managing Senior Leaders – True CEO Role (10:20–11:59)

• Lead an organization with multiple layers—senior leaders oversee managers who manage frontlines.
• Org charts become multi-layered; the owner moves further from day-to-day operations.
• "That's when I started to really feel like a CEO for the first time ... Each of my leaders has a team. Some of my leaders' teams have teams." — John Wilson (11:35)

Notable Quote:
"Anyone can be a CEO with $99 and an LLC, but when do you feel like you're in the role?" — John Wilson (12:00)

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3. Pitfalls, Pain Points, & Mindset Shifts (11:13–13:02)

• Owners often struggle giving up control as their businesses grow ("owner's hell").
• Moving fast as an executor is a double-edged sword—great for velocity but dangerous at scale if unchecked.
• Failing to delegate and build trust with the next leadership level stalls growth.

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4. Personal Journeys & Reflections (13:02–16:46)

• John Wilson recounts progressing through all stages, from hands-on plumber to service manager, then eventually to managing managers (13:02).
• Scaling up means personal detachment from the “thing that got you there.”
• “Everything’s a little bit slower... but you have to really trust this human being to do an excellent job at running what you’ve built so far and making it better.” — John Wilson (14:52)

The Boat Analogy (15:00–15:05)

• “You are a small speedboat…The minute that you scale up, now you're a cruise ship.” — Jack Carr
• As the business grows, agility decreases; changes and decisions require more process and buy-in.

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5. Looking Ahead — Stage 5 & Multi-location Scaling (15:43–17:40)

• Next evolution is expanding to multiple locations/states—structures, processes, and reporting get even more complex.
• "That's step five. And, you know, I hope I do well." — John Wilson (15:43)
• Slower feedback loops and action come with scale; leadership must focus on process-building and accountability.

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Actionable Takeaways & Lessons

• Be prepared for massive mindset shifts: Moving from hands-on worker to CEO is about relinquishing control and multiplying your impact through teams.
• Building infrastructure is costly but necessary: The transition to true management involves investing in people who don't directly generate revenue.
• Document and reinforce processes: If something moves too slow, that’s a sign the process (or accountability) needs work, not just more effort from the CEO.
• Trust your leaders: At higher stages, your main role shifts to enabling, supporting, and ensuring accountability at the leadership level.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I started calling myself CEO five years ago. It was probably early...now, like I'm probably CEO." — John Wilson (01:23)
• "As a HVAC owner, I'm no longer servicing units. I'm managing people…that's the big pitfall—actually making that separation." — Jack Carr (04:28)
• "This is the owner's hell. You've just stepped straight into owner's hell." — Jack Carr (07:31)
• "When do you feel like you're in the role?" — John Wilson (12:00)
• "If something requires my personal input to lift, we don't have a process for it." — John Wilson (18:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to the CEO Journey: 00:00–01:23
• Defining the Stages: 02:00–11:12
• Pitfalls at Each Stage: 07:00–11:12
• Personal Stories & Reflections: 13:02–16:46
• Scaling to the Next Level: 15:43–17:40
• Process and Accountability as a True CEO: 17:40–21:20

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Tone & Takeaway

The tone throughout is candid and practical, blending humor ("owner's hell") with real-world advice and vulnerable admissions about leadership challenges. Listeners are left with a clear map: understanding the stages and pain points of growth is the only path to truly becoming—and feeling like—a CEO in the trades.

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Transcript

[Jack Carr]

Can't be a CEO if you work at a W2. Main goal is to make sure that other people are doing what I love.

[John Wilson]

I am leading 150, 160 people. That's when I started to really feel like a CEO for the first time. Each of my leaders has a team. Some of my leaders, teams have teams. And that's when it really started to.

[Jack Carr]

Feel like, okay, this is the owner's hell. Like you've just stepped straight into owner's hell.

[John Wilson]

We can be our own worst enemies. Hey, if we want to hyper execute hyper fast in some cases, that can be awesome. It can also absolutely bomb the business. Welcome back to owned and operated. I am your host, John Wilson. I run a $30 million home service company in Ohio. Today I'm joined by Jack Carr from Jack Acquisitions. Jack runs Rapid Plumbing and H Vac in Nashville. Today we are talking about the four steps to becoming a CEO. Thanks for tuning in and make sure you like and sub.

[Jack Carr]

Welcome back. I say it, but welcome back. I haven't said it in a long time.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, feels good.

[Jack Carr]

CEO, tech. I think it's not only tech to CEO. It's just like field employee. A W2 moving into a true CEO position.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

What's the path to CEO? What's the path?

[Jack Carr]

The first.

[John Wilson]

Are you a CEO, Jack?

[Jack Carr]

I don't think I'm a CEO. People ask me that and I like actually don't know my title. I think it's founder.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Maybe founder, Owner.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

But it's not CEO yet.

[John Wilson]

Okay. Yeah, I've. I started calling myself CEO five years ago. It's probably early, I would say now, like I'm probably CEO. Like I think that's what it is. Everyone knows leads are tough to come by, but what if they weren't Service scalers is the no BS marketing team for contractors and they're running SEO, PPC, LSAs and Google. My business campaigns that actually bring in customers, not just clicks. They've delivered consistent leads for me tied to real revenue and they can do the same for you. Sign a 12 month contract and your first month is free. Click the link below to get started. Service killers. No bs, just leads.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

Let's dive in.

[Jack Carr]

Sweet.

[John Wilson]

So four steps.

[Jack Carr]

Four steps. I think the first step is the move to actually owning a business. Right. You can't be a CEO if you work at a W2. So whether you're a technician, whether you're a baker, whether you are a cpa, the first step is actually going out and starting a business is getting your LLC Buying or buying.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Carr]

It's moving into the ownership position. So now you are the owner of some kind of business.

[John Wilson]

Like, so in the first stage, you bought a business, you launched a business, whatever it is, and you were like, performing the work that you are selling. So, like, if it's. If it's H Vac, if it's an accounting firm, if you're a baker, like, you're the baker, you're the accountant, you're.

[Jack Carr]

The H vac, you're doing the work on the day.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. You're performing the task.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Which is.

[John Wilson]

That's like step one. Level one.

[Jack Carr]

Good step. Yeah, step one.

[John Wilson]

And then you had the entrepreneurial seizure. Like, I'm just quoting e. Myth Revisit.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Wilson]

Michael Gerber. So, like, a baker loved to bake. They launched a bakery. They found out that running a bakery is not the same as enjoying to bake.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

They. They have too much work. And then. So the second step is they hire help. Yes, they hire help, and they now have people baking that bread for them, doing that CPA work on the daily. For them. The daily operations or the task is being owned by somebody else, or at least shared by somebody else, but most owned by somebody else, while then you move into managing that person.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

So you're managing the people performing the work. You're managing the plumbers, you're managing the bakers, you're managing the lawyers, you're managing the technicians, whatever it is. So, like, what do you think the pitfalls of that stage are? And how do you think you like, moving from stage one to stage two is kind of like the straightforward. Like, you just literally, you get so overwhelmed in stage one that you hire your first employee and boom, you're in stage two. So, like, that's the step. But, like, moving from, like, what. What do you think stage two looks like and how do you move from it?

[Jack Carr]

I think stage two is actually probably one of the hardest stages to get out of because of the fact. Right. Is you've just gotten help, but yet you don't know whether you should still be in the field, you still kind of dabble in the field or other, or whether you should be moving into a managerial role. And what does that look like? Right. You're a good baker, you're a good lawyer, you're good at whatever that task was, and that's why started this. But then you realize, oh, someone has.

[John Wilson]

To run a business.

[Jack Carr]

I'm actually not going to be doing that anymore. I need to understand it. But that's not my main goal as an owner. My main goal is to make sure that other people are doing what I love.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

So as a H VAC owner, like, I'm no longer servicing units. I'm managing people in the field. Servicing units.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

And so that's the big pitfall is. Is actually making that separation and then moving into a role and understanding role that is management.

[John Wilson]

No, I agree. I think I see a lot of it. Well, it's easy get stuck. So it's easy to get stuck because you don't know what your job is. And I think that's a. I think that's a big one. You don't know what the next step is and it's hard to invest.

[Jack Carr]

There's a huge cost.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, there's a huge cost to moving, you know, from that stage one to stage two. You're adding more executors, so you're really just adding more people that drive revenue. You're adding more bakers, you're adding more accountants, you're adding more. Whatever. These are revenue productive individuals.

[Jack Carr]

So hopefully.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, hopefully. So the more you add, like, the more revenue. So, like, it's only a win. But moving from stage two to stage three is like sort of the very first time you start to introduce infrastructure. And infrastructure has cost. And maybe that's a csr. Maybe you have to. Maybe you have to move out of your garage and into. You have to rent an office now, and that's $2,000 a month. Maybe you have to hire an office manager or a manager in general. So, like, there's a big step up in cost. And I think that, like, that is hard and it's probably intimidating because that's a net new position. They've never hired a manager. Like, what does that look like?

[Jack Carr]

Well, also. Right. A manager should be driving revenue, but a manager doesn't directly produce revenue. So it's a purely an expense function.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

So for. To be clear, like, this is moving into step three, right?

[John Wilson]

Yes. Yeah, we're step three. We've. We have the three to five people baking the bread, you know, doing the lawyer work, doing whatever. We've hired a manager over those people. We've stepped back slightly.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yep.

[John Wilson]

And we're now more of like an operations head, like almost leaning towards general manager type role. And we have someone managing the executors, the people performing the tasks. So we're now managing one manager.

[Jack Carr]

You're managing one manager. But you also, like you were saying, with infrastructure, you probably have other folks that are supporting that function.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Right.

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

So you're having call takers or somebody answering the phone or someone doing bookkeeping. So now in level three you start to get more people who are much like the manager are not directly producing revenue which makes it pretty difficult as well.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

So it's a hard move. I don't, I think that if you're able to wrap your head around the idea though that I need to separate myself from the actual work. I don't think that this step is mentally difficult. It's probably fiscally really difficult.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

But from like a, a personal mental standpoint like you've already, you're already stepped.

[John Wilson]

Out of the business.

[Jack Carr]

So this one is not, not, not too difficult from that, that aspect. But yeah, some of the big pitfalls here are this is the owner's hell. Like you've just stepped.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Straight into owner's hell. Yeah, it's like hey, you're trying to grow from that 1 to 3 marks depending the business, you know, vertical.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

But you're trying to grow from that one to three mark and cash is tight.

[John Wilson]

Well you, yeah, you invested in managers, you invest in infrastructure. You probably have softwares now that are key part of your business. Yeah, like it gets really tight. This stage kind of lasts for a long time. Like if I think about the stage three, this managing manager stage, that is a, that's like from almost 2 in our, in plumbing, H vac, electric. That's from like 2 or 3 million to like 15. Yeah, that's almost the same stage. Now that's a huge difference. That's a five times revenue difference. But a lot of what you're doing is just replicating and, and you have to build new functions. You have to, you know, you're going to go hire more field managers, more service managers, more you know, branch managers for bakeries or like whatever we're dealing with here. And you're just going to keep doing that. And then as your team manages the execution, you're going to be building out the accounting function, the marketing function, the HR function and that's all that big stuff. As you sort of cross the again in Orange Street. 10 million mark. You have to start building out these meaningful functions. We have a killer deal today from one of our partners. We supply trades with tight deadlines, breakdowns and last minute jobs. That's just the life in the trades. And that's why we trust the [e-mail] family owned and nearly a century in business. They stock thousands of H vac, plumbing and hydronic parts from brands you already use and they're shipped fast same day. If you order by 3:30 Eastern with a free pro membership, you'll get better pricing, free shipping over $99 and real experts who actually know the field. You get 20% off your first order with code owned20@we supply trades.com or the link below. We Supply trades. Finally a supplier who actually gets it.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, definitely. And all of those functions cost money and all of those functions require headcounts and managers call. And once again, because we're in this industry, it's very hard to not draw linear definitions. But like call center managers. And now you have a probably a lead staff, a lead accounting staff, not just a bookkeeper anymore. You probably need somebody who's going to actually manage the books a little bit better.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Maybe make some models. You're going to need somebody who's maybe running a warehouse.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Like it just keeps going on and on and on until you get to that 15 million mark.

[John Wilson]

Yeah, I think so. You're, you're managing managers.

[Jack Carr]

You said though at one point that, that number you would, you're saying 10 or 15 right now. But at one point you said, hey, I wish I would have started at 10.

[John Wilson]

Yeah. So I mean now you're talking about transitioning to stage four and I think we could really go to, we could talk about what stage five looks like in my mind because I'm not there yet. But you know, stage four, you're managing senior leaders. And the difference there is you're managing leaders that are managing managers. There's a new layer of leadership. Instead of just a one or two layer org chart, you might have four layers or five layers of people. Because like the way my org chart looks is I'm at the top, Brandon. My COO is right underneath me. I have a controller, I have a head of hr, I have a director of marketing. And then Brandon under him has a line of directors. He has three directors reporting to him. They have frontline leaders reporting to them. Then each of them has 8 to 10 techs. So Brandon has multiple layers of leadership under him.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

So he really starts sort of accelerating kind of fast. So that's stage four is we're now we're not directly managing the, the frontline leaders, we're managing the senior leaders. And that is a totally different type, a totally different stage of CEO.

[Jack Carr]

Is that where you believe that you actually are the CEO?

[John Wilson]

That's when I started to really feel like a, like a CEO for the first time. Yeah, it's like okay, I'm, I'm, I am leading 150, 160 people. This is a, this is a real thing. Each of my leaders has a team. Some of my leaders. Teams have teams. And that's when it really started to feel like, okay, okay, yeah, I'm probably actually a CEO now.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

Because like, I think the funny thing, you know, anyone can be a CEO with $99 and you go buy an LLC, but like, when are you. When do you like, feel like you're in the role?

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's, that's probably pretty accurate to the job description of a typical CEO as well. It's like managing leadership positions, C suite team, potentially. Yeah, it's not, hey, I have two staff and I'm going around. I'm CEO Jack.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Yeah, I've always had a. Yeah, I've always had a weird feeling about it. So I just call myself an owner.

[John Wilson]

It's a. It's a weird title. It's a weird title to give yourself. It's. Yeah, it's a weird title. So, you know, as. As I think about my title over the years, like this journey that we just walked through is the journey that I walked through. So I was a plumber and I started, I was hands on the tools until like 23, 24. And then I went part time as a service manager. Like we had only had three people in the field, but exactly the same thing. I went half time into the office, half time selling. So like still executing but like trying to keep things moving.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

Figuring adding initiatives like flat rate and, you know, service titan and whatever else. I bought another business and I went from managing field team members directly to managing managers. And I was 26, it was 2018. We went from 13 to 27 staff members and suddenly I had three managers reporting to me. And it was like, took a couple of years to like, figure out what that was supposed to look like. Okay, how do you measure managers? I barely know how to measure like the field performers. And then, you know, a lot changed and also not that much changed for the next like three years. At the end of the day, it was bringing on managers, bringing on more team members, figuring out infrastructure. And it only meaningfully changed again when I felt like, okay, I'm. This is a totally different game that I'm not quite sure how to like work with when there was senior leaders managing teams themselves.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

And that's. That it's just harder. You know, everything's a little bit slower. You know, I remember even Two years ago, when I was one. When there was one less layer.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

I mean, there was one less layer in like 2023. And I think about some of the actions that Brandon and I took on, like, how we grew as fast as we grew and it happened because there was one less layer. We were this much closer to the, the thing that we do that actually matters. We were this much closer to the sale, this much closer to the lead, this much closer to the call center. So, like, really monitor booking and moving from that stage three to stage four. You're. You're bringing out senior leaders, and if you do it wrong, like, you're stepping out of the thing that got you there. And you have to really trust this human being to do an, like, excellent job.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

At running what you've built so far and making it better.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

I, I love the boat analogy.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Right.

[Jack Carr]

The boat analogy is like, you are a small speedboat.

[John Wilson]

Yes.

[Jack Carr]

And like, you're in control of the jet skiing. Like, you can pivot and change, but the minute that you.

[John Wilson]

Now we're a cruise ship.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

And, and, and arguably not even that much of a cruise ship because we still have the benefit of one single location. And I think that is the next stage that we're bracing for where leadership. I'm going to look back fondly at one location where I can walk in and touch and feel and hey, if there's a problem, I'll just go talk to him. Yeah, no big deal. And going to multi location, multi state is a different state of leadership. Where, hey, how do they report into the CEO? How do they report into finance? How does HR help? Like, it's a different.

[Jack Carr]

It's different next step.

[John Wilson]

That's step five. And, you know, I hope I do well.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Sweet. I mean, I think that, like, that's a really good breakdown because I. You see all the other people in step five, like Chad Petermans and all that, who are at that stage, the Tommy Mellows or he was, where they're really just expanding multi locations. And so how are you looking at, like, moving into that? Because I know me, I'm sitting in step, you know, 3ish. Moving into step 4ish. But still, I know I have quite a bit of a ways, but I start to feel my. Myself slow down. Like when I need something or, or I feel like there needs to be a change in the business, it dramatically is slower. And like I, I'm trying to figure out how to manage and handle that. I have to imagine it's the same thing. Going on with you. Whereas once again, you're not down the hall, you're not at the water cooler. Like, that moves even slower.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

But a lot of peer mentoring has helped me with this because it was really frustrating at first. You know, if you're used to a certain speed, then it gets really frustrating.

[Jack Carr]

Well, that's why you got into it, right? You're an executor.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

You're a plumber. You were able to grow quickly because, like, hey, that's what we do. We get stuff, we get stuff done.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

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[John Wilson]

What I have been grateful that I've been able to learn over the last, especially six months, I would say, but like year is, it's, it's kind of really good when something like is too slow. Because what that usually tells me is I don't have a process for that yet.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

If something requires my personal input to lift, we don't have a process for it. And if it happens twice, then we need a process for it. So I've started to get really grateful for like these moments where I'm like, oh God, this is really annoying. This is like the third time that I've asked for this thing. Like a year ago I would have been like, whose head am I about to roll? And now it's like, oh, well, yeah, like we don't have a stop for that. There's no way that someone can just produce this because no one's job is built around producing this. So let's go figure that problem out. So, yeah, I think that has helped a lot. When things do need to move fast, you do need to be able to get them to move fast. But I think that that is a function of your senior leaders. Hey, this is highly urgent. This is highly important. We have to fast track this project for some reason. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I, I think it's stages. I don't think there's a right or wrong here. I think it's stages. And I think that what I've gotten really grateful for is one, when something really slow, it, it's good we found a gap, we need to go fix that gap. But two, we can be our own worst enemies as leaders, where, hey, if we want to hyper execute hyper fast in some cases, that can be awesome. That can move the business forward and maybe we direct that perfectly every time for years. It can also absolutely bomb the business. Like if you're trying to tell the entire team to turn left when they've been turning right for two years, it's not going to go well. So it, it's, it's sort of some insulation from our own worst habits that people are more involved in the process. And you, you as a, as a leader, as a CEO, have to more fully explain why we're doing this. You have to more fully get buy in.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[John Wilson]

Because you need those senior leaders to push that initiative forward urgently and quickly. So I've been really grateful because I've spent a lot of time like messing that up basically. Like, you know, not learning because I did it great. But learning because like, I'm like, why is this not moving? And then I'm like, oh, there's no process for it. My senior leaders don't understand why it's important. And I'm trying to do something that might not even be in the best interest of us. Like, maybe they're right.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Carr]

No, I, I'm with you. I'm. And on the back end, what I'm trying to understand, because this is what we're running into personally, is I, I'm like, I'm sitting here going, this is hitting home. Because what, what we've been focusing on recently is I'm going to, I'm implementing these things with senior leaders and they're not happening. Why are they not happening?

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

And we have a process, but we actually have an issue of it's not the process, it is the accountability after.

[John Wilson]

Oh, totally.

[Jack Carr]

So, yeah, that's. And that's part of the process, but like, that's the piece of the process I've been missing.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

And so on the back end, nobody's following up and including myself with senior leaders.

[John Wilson]

Totally.

[Jack Carr]

And so it's, it's an interesting way that you're phrasing that just because it's like, I'm seeing like that's where the process is missed. And now I have some words to put to it.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Sweet.

[John Wilson]

As you're moving from, what, three to four, you think two to three?

[Jack Carr]

We're moving from three to. Or. Yeah, three to high fours, hopefully at.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

The end this year.

[John Wilson]

Sweet. And then I'm moving from, I hope, four to five, so we'll see how it goes.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jack Carr]

Oh, oh. On stage.

[Unidentified Guest or Moderator]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah?

[John Wilson]

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