How to Fire Employees Fairly (Without Ruining Your Culture)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Owned and Operated - A Plumbing, Electrical, and HVAC Business Growth Podcast
Episode: How to Fire Employees Fairly (Without Ruining Your Culture)
Hosts: John Wilson & Jack Carr
Date: February 19, 2026

This episode addresses the often-dreaded but inevitable aspect of business ownership: terminating employees. John and Jack delve into how to approach firing in a fair manner that protects company culture, ensures legal and ethical standards, and even uncovers operational opportunities for improvement. They discuss why it’s emotionally tough, when it becomes necessary, and how to do it with clarity and compassion, especially in the home service industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Firing Employees Is So Hard

• Emotional Toll:
  • Firing isn’t easy, especially for optimistic owners who want to be a positive force in employees’ lives ([09:01], John):

    "I want to be a force of good in the lives of those around me, and I want to build a big business...it's heavy and it's disappointing. So I hate it."

  • Owners understand their actions have significant impacts on employees’ families and well-being.
• Business Realities:
  • Practical challenges, especially in small companies; firing a key person may mean redistributing their workload directly to the owner ([09:50], Jack).

2. The Process and Philosophy Behind Terminations

• Reflect Before Acting:
  • Always consider: “How did we get here? At one point, this person was our top pick—what changed?” ([00:35], John)
• Owner Accountability:
  • Sometimes underperformance stems from leadership failures: unclear expectations, lack of training, or systems not designed for success ([13:03], John).

3. Growth and Changing Roles

• Evolving Standards:
  • Growing businesses often find that early team members can’t scale with the company, even if they were originally integral ([15:06], John & Jack).
  • “Your go-to guy at $1M is rarely your go-to guy at $10M” ([14:02], Jack).
• Motivation & Fit:
  • Motivation is difficult to train; you can coach skills, but not drive ([18:47], Jack):

    "You can't change with any amount of training, in my opinion, the motivation of somebody..."

4. Clear Expectations & Fair Process

• Performance Improvement Plans (PIP):
  • Make it so "you're essentially firing yourself." Employees know where they stand, what’s required, and the consequences ([05:07], Jack).
• Key Process Steps:
  • Set documented expectations upfront (handbook, signed agreements)
  • Set clear KPIs and how performance is measured ([28:11], John)
  • Provide real, trackable coaching and improvement plans, not just verbal nudges ([29:34], Jack & John)
  • Document all feedback, coaching, and discussions

5. When Non-Negotiables Arise

• “Red Line” Behaviors:
  • Certain infractions (theft, substance abuse, harassment) require swift, non-negotiable action—sometimes personally handled by the owner ([21:17], John).

6. The Hidden Cost of Avoidance

• Culture Erosion:
  • Failing to act on toxic or underperforming employees undermines team trust and the owner’s credibility ([26:52], John):

    "If people just are toxic for the business, you have to help the business thrive...if you don't handle it...you're going to lose trust of everyone else."

• Surprising Upsides:
  • After a difficult termination, other employees often rise to fill the gap ([27:59], Jack).

7. How to Execute Fairly & Respectfully

• Summarized Checklist:
  1. Clear behavioral and performance expectations, documented and signed
  2. Realistic, transparent KPIs communicated in job offers
  3. Concrete, documented coaching plans with deliverables
  4. A written, step-by-step improvement plan with supportive resources
  5. Fast, decisive action once it’s clear improvement isn't happening
  6. Respectful, low-drama exit process when termination is needed ([36:58], John)
• Key Concept — GWC:
  • “Get it, Want it, Capacity to do it” – does the employee understand, desire, and possess the ability to do the job? Lack of ‘want’ cannot be coached ([35:11], John).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the emotional struggle:

  “It’s always been the hardest part…regardless of them messing up or me messing up…it’s heavy and it’s disappointing.”
  — John Wilson, [05:56]

• On accountability:

  "At one point, you thought this candidate was the greatest thing since sliced bread. So what changed between that day and today? And how much of that was you?"
  — John Wilson, [00:35]

• On the importance of clarity:

  “Having a plan for that same idea is [what matters]...knowing what to do and telling people what to do is not effective.”
  — Jack Carr, [31:00]

• On dealing with “star” but toxic employees:

  “If people just are toxic for the business, you have to help the business thrive…if you don’t handle it, you lose trust of your other team members.”
  — John Wilson, [26:52]

• On the inevitability of turnover as you grow:

  “The people with you now might not be with you at the next step.”
  — Jack Carr, [14:02]

• On the value of a defined process:

  “I try to set up that there is a domino effect—so you are essentially firing yourself. It makes everything so much easier.”
  — Jack Carr, [05:07]

• On “GWC”:

  “Do they get it? Do they want it? Do they have the capacity to do it?”
  — John Wilson, [36:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00] — John on taking personal accountability before any termination
• [03:36] — Introducing the Facebook group & the listener question about firing
• [04:31] — Jack introduces his “hire fast, fire fast” philosophy, but emphasizes fair process
• [05:56] — John’s two “whys” and why firing is so emotionally challenging
• [08:55] — Outlining the episode’s structure: why it’s hard, why it’s necessary, the cost of avoidance
• [13:03] — John's reflection: Was it us or the team member?
• [15:06] — Growth means not everyone will make the journey with you
• [21:17] — Clear-cut firings for policy violations
• [26:52] — The cultural fallout of avoiding tough calls
• [28:11] — Step-by-step: how to fire fairly
• [31:00] — Having a real coaching and improvement plan vs. vague intentions
• [35:11] — “GWC” explained
• [36:58] — Fast decisions, and why a low-drama exit matters for all
• [38:32] — Importance of metrics, especially for smaller businesses

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Conclusion

John and Jack close by re-emphasizing that firing—even when necessary—should be approached with gravity, fairness, structure, and respect for humanity. Every termination is an opportunity for business self-reflection and a chance to improve systems. When owners act decisively and compassionately, it not only preserves, but strengthens company culture.

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For more insights and resources, join the Owned & Operated Facebook group or visit www.ownedandoperated.com.

Transcript

[A]

As I approach any termination, the first step is how did we get here? Because I still inherently believe that people want to do a good job. And if you gave them a good goal and the coaching to get there, like they would get there.

[B]

The people who are with you in the beginning, you kind of have this hopeful ideology that they'll be with you at the very end. But the reality of it is they're usually not.

[A]

If they show up an hour late every day, if they don't do their job, if they're not attempting to improve performance in any way, then you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.

[B]

But you can't change any amount of training. In my opinion, the motivation of somebody to overcome what their motivation is.

[A]

At one point, you thought this candidate was the greatest thing since sliced bread. So what changed between that day and today? And how much of that was you? Welcome back to Owned and Operated. I'm your host, John Wilson. I run a plumbing H Vac and electric company. Jack's making Faces of me. I run A Plumbing H Vac Electric Co. In Northeast Ohio. And for fun, I also run a podcast where we talk about growing our business with my friends. Today I'm joined by the one and only Jack Carr.

[B]

Hey, guys.

[A]

I'm laughing because there's that famous author.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do not. Yeah, I do not dominate.

[A]

Dude, there's so many John Wilson.

[B]

Jack car is already predominated by the other Jack Carr I know. Speaking of that, like the guy who.

[A]

Yeah, well, there, there's a famous John Wilson and he has like some HBO shows. So, you know, once I was in, I was in New York visiting my sister in law and like my wife and I got a couple's massage and they, you know, they didn't see my face, whatever, because you're face down. And they're like, oh, John Wilson. They're like, oh, like we loved your show. And I'm like, that wasn't me.

[B]

Dude. Got so many messages on LinkedIn because I, I think the scruff, my scruffy look like we don't look alike, but confusion.

[A]

You could be an author. Yeah. You could walk in the woods and puzzlingly look at trees.

[B]

Yeah, I think because like he writes all the, the action novels. Like, I look like I could write military action novels. And so like I, I have like 12 or 13 people reach out to me like, dude, your book has changed my life. And I'm like, dude, I appreciate that, but I don't have a book Buddy yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And be about hvac, so not applicable.

[A]

Yeah. All right, my good friend Jack Carr, welcome back to the show. Jack runs a podcast called Jack Wisitions where he talks about buying other companies. And he also runs an H VAC company in Nashville.

[B]

TR Trade. Yep.

[A]

Today. Tr. Oh, yeah, duh. Today we have a Facebook group comment or question asking us to go over this on the show. Make sure you check out the Facebook group. There's around 1200 other contractors that are on the group and they're sharing comments and advice. And it's a good. It's a good group.

[B]

Well, the best part about, too, is, like, if you join any of the other groups, they're not curated. And so you get a lot of spam, you get a lot of market. Like, do you want 8 to 10 more leads per month? Kind of people. Like, this group is super curated.

[A]

Says 1200 contractors.

[B]

Yeah, it's 1200 contract plumbing, pest control, fencing contractors, home service contractors. So it's very, very applicable.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. It's. It's pretty sweet. So the. Yeah, the group is small, but it's, like, tight. It's a good monitoring. Anyways, so someone on the group, I actually don't know who, so sorry if I don't shout your name out as we go over this, but the question was, I hate firing employees. But. But sometimes it's necessary. What helps. That is a good one. That's a tough one.

[B]

Yeah. And the bigger you get, the more it has to happen. I mean, you now have a buffer, though. Like, is there. I guess let's start off here. Is like, is there a point where your HR just handles that for you, John, now? Or do you still. Are you still directly involved in, like, that actual process?

[A]

If I'm involved in your termination, you really upset.

[B]

Well, there you go. So, I mean, the way that we handle this is. I don't want to say different than anybody else, but the way that we handle this is I have that same feeling. I have the same hurt. Like, I don't think that's, you know, just me. I think that's.

[A]

It's one of the worst parts.

[B]

One of the worst parts of the business.

[A]

It's one of the worst parts.

[B]

But what helps when. When I do it is I. We've moved to, like, a higher, fast fire fast model. But that is, like, it's not all. It's not like, I just, like, say one day, wake up, go out there, you miss KPI, you're fired. Like, a lot of times, what I Try to set up, because I'm directly involved in the firings of every single employee is what I try to set up is that there is a domino effect. So you are essentially firing yourself. It makes everything so much easier. If there's. They're on a pip, they know they're on a pipe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

PIP is a performance improvement plan. Like, so all of that makes life so much. Like, don't get me wrong, people still have families. It's still hard, but for my consciousness, it's. Or my conscience, it's. You fired yourself. Like, here's your opportunity. We gave you meetable goals. You still decide to show up late three times. It's not extenuating circumstances. Like, it is what it is. I'm sorry. Like, now it's time. So, like, that. That's been the biggest help for me over the last few years is going from like, hey, I have to fire this person, to this person knows that they're going to get fired. And it's made the last round of, like, six or seven that we've had to, like, go much, much easier because they're like, yep, I thought so. Here, here's my keys. Here's my. This. Here's my. This. I already. Already cleaned out my truck. Like, let's just transition.

[A]

Yeah. I think my. My quick takes terminating employees is, like, worst part of the job. Worst part of. I think owning a business, it is heavy, and I think that it should feel heavy even when it's deserved. I think most people. But at least the way I've tried to approach this is I. I've said this on the show before, but, like, my two whys, I want to. I want to be a force of good in the lives of those around me, and I want to build a big business. And I think that the best way that I can be a force of good in the lives of those around me is by building a big business. I think that by building a big business, I can create jobs and opportunity and, like, help people change their lives in a good way. And regardless of, like, what happened or why it happened, it has always been discouraging because it goes against one of my wise of, like, I want to be good. I want to be a force of good and, like, help people in whatever part of their journey they're on. And regardless of them messing up or me messing up or whatever, it's. It. It's heavy and it's disappointing. So I hate it. It's always been the. It's always been the hardest part. But, yeah, I Think we can talk a little bit about today? Why it's hard, the reality, like the business side, like why it's so one, why it's hard. Two, why it's necessary. And then what are the costs of not having that hard conversation? What, what else happens inside the business? If you don't have that, don't do it. So if you are a home service business spending 10, 20 or even 30 grand a month on marketing and you still can't confidently say where book jobs are actually coming from, then you need to hear this. Service Killers is hosting an in person worksh called booked Solid where a small group of operators get in a room and work through the stuff. Nobody ever has time to slow down and do what. Can I actually track what's working that I should double down on what's not working that I should kill? And how do I consistently fill the call board without wasting money? Sam and his team go deep on Google Ads, lsa, SEO, Facebook and even traditional marketing. But the big thing is lead handling and follow up, which is where revenue quietly leaks. You'll leave with a real actionable 90 day marketing plan and so much more. It's hosted by Sam and his team at Service Scalers, happening March 3rd through the 5th in Akron, Ohio at Wilson. You can save 500 bucks with code booked early bird, but it's a small room so seats are limited. If marketing has been sitting on your to do list for way too long, then this is probably the nudge that you need.

[B]

That's much better model than me. Just like firing from the hip. Initial thoughts. So what was the first one? It's what?

[A]

So the first one is why is this hard?

[B]

I mean, I think that. I mean I'm curious.

[A]

Yeah. So most, most business owners. Yeah, I mean I gave my. Why. Like I'm an optimistic person and I like people a lot. I like people so much that I started a podcast so I could talk to more people. Like I just love talking to people. I love running around the office and fist bumping everyone I've ever seen. I love, I love it. I think it's fun and I like connecting and there's an emotional weight determinations because you know that regardless of whether or not it's deserved, like if someone was drinking on the job, like I certainly have less of an opinion. But you know that there's still things going on in their lives and you know that they still have a family and they still have rent and they still have all of the things that have to happen in their life that you were at one point a part of. So I think that there's like a, there's an emotional toll and that is what makes it hard.

[B]

Yeah, I think it also makes it. Why is it hard is because I think that you, you. Yes, there's a humanity aspect to it, which definitely is the case. But also like I think you know the repercussions of all these decisions. Like there's, there's a few reasons why it's hard. You might not, you might really not actually like the person, you might hope they need to go and like. But you keep them. And it's hard because you know that the pain on the, of this decision for you personally is going to be a lot. Right. Especially in smaller businesses where you have. Don't have as much crossover or as many heads that can take on a little bit of the work, that work directly falls onto your back. So for example, if you're a 5 man H vac company who has to fire their service manager, you are now the service manager. So it definitely can be hard for a lot of reasons, but I think that the back end can be mitigated a bit outside of the humanity aspect.

[A]

Something that I have found that helps and you sort of alluded to this in the why is this hard? Part is like obviously this is hard, right? Like it, it. I know some people and myself included, like when my career was pretty early, I agonized over these conversations. Like I couldn't sleep the day before, like knowing like, dude, I have to have a tough conversation with somebody at 8am tomorrow. Like so hard, hard to sleep. And, and my personality was always like let's win and trying to see the best in people and obviously like sometimes to a fault. What I have found helps is similar to what you said at the beginning of this is as, as I approach any termination it's the first step is how did we get here? At one point I thought that this candidate or employee was like, you know, the best thing since sliced bread. Like we hired them and we were excited and they were excited. They came in thinking that they were going to do something great and participate in our company and like help move it forward. And somewhere between offer and hire and wherever we are today, something changed. So what I go back to is first off, was it us or was it the team member? Like, like you said, like do they just not care? And I can't do much about that if they show up an hour late every day, if they don't do their job, if they're not attempting to improve performance in any way. Then I, like, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. So I can't do a ton about that. But early on, what I did find and I was really discouraged by is, hey, a lot of the times it was kind of us. Like, I didn't set that person up for success. Maybe I didn't tell them, hey, here's what success looks like in your role, and here's what happens if you don't hit that. Like, we'll coach you, we'll pip you, we'll whatever. But early on, I didn't do a good job of that, or I. Or, hey, I. I set the expectation. I expect 50 grand a month or 10 grand a week or whatever the number is. But then I didn't really have a good way to coach to get there. Like, I didn't have a system built and designed to, hey, we can. We can do this. Like, I have a lot of other people hitting that number. And here's how we do it. Here's our system, here's our process, here's our sales training. So what I ended up. So on one hand, it wasn't exactly fair, right? So we thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. We brought them in. They didn't thrive for whatever reason. Maybe it was me, maybe it was them. And then. But over the years, every time there was someone that didn't work out with the business, it was good feedback for us. It was, hey, I didn't set them up for success. Like, they didn't know that this was their goal, or if they did know this was their goal, they didn't know how to get there. Because I still inherently believe that people want to do a good job. They want to, like, be impactful in whatever they're doing in their life. And if you gave them a good goal and the coaching to get there, like, they would get there because they want to get there. I think that's maybe hopeful, but, like,

[B]

I'm going that that's very hopeful because. Because. And I think that what also the real realization at some point that you need as the owner to make it less hard. And we're going through a bit of this right now. We've. We've had some heavy turnover going into November, December of last year, and we're kind of coming out on the end of it. And so it's at top of mind. And I think that specifically as you grow as a company as well. Tommy Melo said this. All the big guys have said it at some point, I think you even said it is for the most part the people who are with you in the beginning, you kind of have this hopeful ideology that they'll be with you at the very end. So like your, your, your, your go to guy at 1 million was going to be your same go to guy at 10 million. But the reality of it is they're usually not. And they're, they're usually not because they're not the same type of personality. And they didn't grow even though they had the resources available. And so like, that's one of the hard things to as an owner real come to the realization is like the people with you now might not be with the people with you at the next step.

[A]

That's, I would say that's easily been one of the most emotionally challenging. Like I'm a, I'm a decade in and I remember everybody from 10 years ago and yeah, for whatever reason, like they're not there. There was a lot of people that I sort of felt like had the keys to the kingdom, that after two or three years they were, they were done personally growing. And if you're done personally growing, then you're kind of done professionally growing. Like they didn't want to challenge themselves or drive themselves to be better. So then they couldn't take on whatever the next role was. And so that's why we adopted, I think I've said that on this show, we adopted a phrase like you should be learning a new job every six months if you want to continue growing because your job should change every six months if you are like moving at the pace the business.

[B]

And I think that specifically though from a, like a managerial level, I don't think that necessarily right. Applies to a great sales tech who's just like, hey, I'm gonna sell $3 million every year. And that's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But what I do think happens with those with the technician side as well is like the technicians that you need and have at smaller sizing, when you start getting into this larger growth, you start taking on more overhead, you need more performance or higher level of performance. So even if you would have set expectations with a lot of these technicians early on, like when you're 2 million, your, your technician expectations might be different and might have evolved as you went into, hey, I'm. We're an $8 million company, a $10 million company now. We no longer sell this way at this price or at this rate. Like, we've evolved. We've been offering more service at a Better, you know, we're a better offering now because we answer the phones late, we have better warranties, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so like, my realization was that, you know, the losing employees, even ones that you really like, because the performance is there, you know, sometimes has to happen to make room for the employees that are going to come in and be, you know, more fitting to your business. And what that generally looks like is, right, like, hey, employees that are, you know, making or generating revenue at like, hey, 30 to $40,000 a month, which was good at some point. You know, maybe they're, they're. What we found personally is like, maybe they are more focused on work life balance and like, their motivation isn't the same as like the people who we need at the next level. People who are very monetarily driven, who want to make sales and want to generate revenue, want to make money and like, are fine coming in on Saturday. And like, those are. It's not that the first person is, is bad or wrong or incorrect. It's just that they have a different motivational structure behind their livelihood. And so that realization was like, hey, oh, like this guy really wants all this time off and wants to be home by 5. And like, what we need at the company right now is somebody who wants to sell H vac units. Like, no matter the cost. Like, they, like, their goal is not to be home by 5. Their goal is to make $4 million this year or whatever it is you can create.

[A]

And we have since. How do you create the program? Because every time we would have, every time we would have a termination and I felt like, hey, this was us. Like, your performance was at one point good and now it's not up to standard. Like, the only thing that changed is my standards, right? Like, this person didn't change. Like they're. That's what. So then what is the system that I created or used or whatever to get someone from here to whatever the new set. But it's. That's what it's really.

[B]

I kind of changed the verbiage because I don't want to come across as like, hey, we were saying you need to make 40 and now you need to make 60, and if you don't, you're gone. Like, it wasn't because like that is a training thing that we would have to do internally. What I more mean is like, yeah, their motive, internal motivation is like their want. Like, if you want to do. If you want to just go and do like fixing jobs and go in there and do that and there's like there's facilities, jobs that you can do that. Like this isn't that. Like, this is a different type of. Of, you know, industry where you have to produce revenue, you have to go in and make full offerings and have those questions. And so what I mean more is like the motivation of the person might have been fine prior to meet the prior goals, but you can't change with any amount of training, in my opinion, the motivation of somebody to overcome what their motivation is.

[A]

It's hard to insert hunger. Yeah. It's hard to make.

[B]

And so it's. It's like, how do you make people care? And that's the hard part. Yeah, but. But interesting.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

I don't know, John. This is way too philosophical of a conversation for me. I'm just. I'm just a lowly tradesman man getting too deep.

[A]

It's a lot. It's a lot. I think, you know, at the end of the day, we're in the people business where our team members are people that are selling to homeowners that are

[B]

people, internal and external customers.

[A]

Yeah, it's sort of the only thing that sort of the only thing that matters now when it. When it's. I think we've been spending a lot of time on, hey, when it's not obvious or when someone's like, you know, how do we help coach? And I think that's the right way to approach it is, hey, how do we help Coach? Here's the issue we're having. Maybe numbers aren't where they need to be. Maybe, like, you didn't pick up enough phone calls or you didn't sell enough, whatever, your closing rates, whatever, then what's. What is. How are we coaching? How are we talking to that person so that they can help improve? So sometimes it's much more clear and. And like, more straightforward. Sometimes someone's doing drugs at work, which, like, hey, that gets to be. That gets to be great. Someone. Sometimes someone steals from a customer. So there's a few cases where, like, you get to be personally fired by me. So if you steal from a customer, if you steal from me, usually. Or sexual harassment. So you get to.

[B]

One way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Yeah. So it's only a few a year, but, yeah, so sometimes it's very straightforward with like, hey, this is clearly against handbook. Like, you stole from somebody, you did drugs in the car, you were drinking and driving. You know, like, pick a thing. And unfortunately, the larger the business gets, the more frequently crazy shit happens where people do more and more Things that you're like, wow, I can't believe that this was something that we had to tell you not to do. But yeah, now. So my caution with this one isn't because it's. It's obvious, right? It's like, hey, this is clearly a large issue. So the way to attack this one isn't like, hey, this is hard. Like, that one's kind of easy. Now, where it gets hard is maybe that person is your highest performer. And this is when stuff gets challenging because they are carrying several people's worth of sales and. But they're doing, like, their behaviors, like, crazy, potentially illegal, but you don't feel like you can change it. And I've talked to, like, most companies that I've talked to have had this at least once. Like, it has happened where their highest performers are doing drugs at work or like, yeah, a lot of stories that I don't feel like I'm gonna, like, walk through on a podcast.

[B]

But I mean, we.

[A]

Yeah, it happens a lot.

[B]

We let go one of our, you know, 180 to $100,000 a year plumbers, or 80amonth plumber. Excuse me. Because when they got home, they would relax a little bit and then start sending just wild text messages on Christmas day to myself and other people that were just, you know, way out of left field and just emotionally charged and. But yeah, they're really great. Like 100k a year. For me, there's a. There's an X and Y axis. And you get this a lot with especially like, really, really good salespeople is like the. The amount of revenue generation is on the Y axis and the X axis is the. The difficulty to manage level. And like, you have to stay within the correct quadrant of that chart to stay in the business. Because the minute that the drama too far along or the revenue drops too little, it's just not worth it anymore. But yeah, we jokingly created that and we have it on our wall just because, like, it's a real thing.

[A]

This, like, the hot, crazy matrix. Yeah.

[B]

Happens. Happens regularly.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like, I. I'm pretty far outside of that matrix. I'm impossible to manage. But the results are big. So, like, what do we do?

[B]

Well, you're unfairable too. So there's that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I talk to a lot of home service business owners, and if you are anything like the many shops you. That I know, you're getting flooded with AI pitches right now. Most of them sound great, but then they fall apart the second they hit the real world. The One that I've kept coming back to is Avoca. What impressed me is they actually get how contracting businesses run. And it's not just some AI answering service. Avoca is going to handle inbound calls, outbound follow ups, texts, web leads, dispatching, and Even coaching your CSRs inside of one system that's built for growing home service companies. And if you're on service titan, this matters. Their integrations go deep. So you're not duct taping five tools together and hoping nothing breaks during your busy season. I also like that they're honest about what AI should and shouldn't do. When a call needs a human. They have a 24, 7 live transfer built in. No drop balls, no awkward customer experience. Owners using Avoca are seeing hold times basically disappear and booking rates are jump, sometimes by more than 30%. And that is real revenue, not just a vanity metric. If you're looking for the one AI partner that actually helps you book more jobs without creating more chaos, this is worth taking a look. Book a demo at the link below. So what we found over the years is if someone is not great for the company culture, they could be a high performer, they could be a low performer. Doesn't really matter. Like, performance should be taken out of the picture. If, if your other members are begging you to make a change, you should probably make the change. And I've seen that a lot. I've seen a lot of people very hesitant to do it. But like, hey, if people just are toxic for the business, you have to help the business thrive and you have to have a hard conversation in order to help the other people around them thrive. But it can be a hard conversation if they're high performer. It can be a hard conversation if they're low performers, performer. But the downside is if you don't do it, then you lose the trust of your other team members. Everyone is very aware that this is a problem, right? Like if someone's drinking and driving or doing drugs or like whatever, or if they're like belligerent in the middle of call center. Everyone is aware that this is an issue and how you handle that issue it like a lot of people are looking, a lot of people are, are looking at you and being like, hey man, like you're the leader of leadership, the guy that I elected to follow. Yeah, I chose to follow you. I chose to be employed here and I'm expecting you to lead. I'm expecting you to handle this challenging situation. And if you don't handle it, if you don't coach, if you don't conversate. If you don't do whatever, potentially terminate, then you're going to lose trust of everyone else in that building because they're going to see that, hey, this guy over here can smoke a blunt in the parking lot. And, like, you don't care because his numbers are good enough. So what does that tell us? Well, I can do anything as long as my numbers are good enough, which for some people, that's the culture that they want. For me, that's not.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a hidden cost to not making a change here. Culture.

[A]

Yeah. You lose the people that are ride or die. Yeah. You lose the people that you wanted to save all along.

[B]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's a hard conversation, and it's one of those harder decisions that you have to make. But sometimes, like, it's black and white for me. We've. We've run into it twice now. It's like it. Unfortunately, it's one of those things that you have to do. And honestly, the interesting part, though, what I've seen now, doing this for four years and talking with so many operators who have asked me this question is someone generally steps up. Like, I know it's a really scary idea, but what we've seen is like, oh, yeah, we fired this guy. And then this guy just, like, stepped up to the plate, and we didn't even know he could generate, like, this. One of the technicians steps into a sales role or whatever the case may be.

[A]

Our. Our set. We have a sentence for this. There will always be a high performer.

[B]

Yeah. And then what's. What's the.

[A]

I think how to do it fairly, and this helps regardless of the situation.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'll just, like, walk through what we've done over the years, because I think that this helps. So 1. Clear expectations up front. So, hey, what's inside my handbook? If I'm. If you're getting terminated for drinking and driving, did my handbook say you couldn't drink and drive? Did it say you couldn't do drugs at work? Did it not. Did it say you couldn't steal from the customer? So did we set clear expectations up front? Yes. No. Like, if you're in California, and if you don't say, like, hey, you can't steal from the customer, like, maybe you're. That's a wrongful termination. I have no idea.

[B]

Shots at California, John.

[A]

It's easy. It's easy to take shots in California. Yeah. All right, so did we set clear expectations up front for behavior, which is the Handbook. Did you show up on time? Did you wear your uniform, whatever? Like, did we explain that? Is it written? Did you sign it? Did we set clear expectations for performance? Hey, here's the KPIs that your position is measured by. Here's what happens when you don't hit those KPIs. Here's how we help you to hit those KPIs. So we put those in job descriptions. So if we're hiring you for nearly anything, there is a. We have an idea of what we want from that position. It is measurable, and we put the measurement and how you will be scored on your job offer. That way, going into it, we have that hard conversation to get a bit

[B]

more granular with that. What is. What is some of the coaching people listening? Like, what does some of that coaching look like? It's like, we. We moved because I think it's important, right? So we. We've had an evolution in. In our business just growing from like a small business to a slightly smaller business. And that evolution was like, hey, what's. What is the coaching and how does it look like? And it went from like, yeah, okay, well, here's the coaching. Here's what it needs to look like to, okay, this is actually how we're doing. And it's like, okay, moving from knowing, hey, you need to do call by call with. With your manager to, oh, you're now doing call by call with your manager. Here's the plan. Like, you're tracking each call, what the opportunity was, what you guys talked about. Like, and so I think it's really pertinent to. To make this an actual process that has deliverables and has measurables. Because if it's not. And it's not a plan, this. John gave me this, like, six months, eight months ago. He's like, well, what's your plan? I was like, what do you mean? It's like, no, no, I know you're gonna start call by call, but, like, what's the plan? Like, what. How are you going to get them working again? And I spent a lot of time chewing on that. That, like, two sentences. Because you're right. Yeah, you were right, John. You were right.

[A]

I soaked it up. Yeah, you were right. Thank you.

[B]

That just like, I'll close my eyes later.

[A]

And just like, knowing what to do

[B]

and actually having a plan set in place are vastly different things. And knowing what to do and telling people what to do is not effective. Having a plan for that same idea is. And so, like, just. That's my Drive home today is making sure that you actually have a physical plan worksheet. What happens and how does it happen? Because that really, you know, drives the bill from a granular level.

[A]

Yeah, I think that how we get there for us is almost the entire business model. Because if you think about like, how do I get one individual to win? Well, I get the whole team to win. It'd be awesome. And like that. That's really. I think the only way that it can happen is we want to have a system that produces a somewhat consistent result. Like that's building a business is how do I take all these inputs and produce an expectable and consistent result. So what's how my booking calls? How am I coaching my CSRs to book more calls? How am I selling jobs? How are we coaching them to sell more on that job or more of those jobs? So hey, are we doing trainings twice a week? Are we doing one on one coachings? Are we doing one on ones with your managers? Do we do ride alongs? Do we have softwares to monitor progress? Do we allow you to check your own progress? Do we allow you to score a card against others? It's really like the how do we. The how do we like help them is almost the entire business because the process of helping them is how we've built a business.

[B]

And ironically, I mean, sounds like there's a lot of variables, but once you start digging in, the variables actually start shedding off real quick. And it becomes, I wouldn't say straightforward, but definitely becomes a lot easier. Yeah.

[A]

Predictable. Yeah. So clear expectations up front. Have a system to create the result that you're looking for. And if you're like, if you're letting people go for underperformance, I take a hard look. Are they underperforming because of them or are they underperforming because of you? Did you not have that system? And that's not like a quick solve. Obviously you got to go build it. And it takes a long time. But you know, you, you want to be able to make it so you can hire five people and five of them succeed. And it's not. You hired one rock star that moved the whole business forward, but you can't reproduce that rock star. Like you have to be able to reproduce your high performers. If there's feedback, you want to be documented so written you can, you should have a way to record, keep. This is not a way to terminate someone. This is a way to help track progress. So, hey, we had this feedback. Your conversion rate was like 30% everyone else on your team is 50. I'm going to work with you one on one for the next 90 days. Once you hit 50, I'm going to buy you that guitar you wanted because that sounds dope. And let's get there. Like, I want you to win. So let's document this. And like, here's the plan like you just talked about. Here's our plan over the next 90 days to help get you up to that goal that you're driving at. So you want to document it because you don't want, like, this is someone's career and we have to take it seriously. This is their personal growth. This isn't just our business. Like, they've entrusted us with their career. They've entrusted, you know, their livelihood with us, like helping them improve. So we have to take that part pretty seriously. You have to give them the opportunity to improve. As long as someone didn't steal from you, do drugs, or do something else insane. You. Like, a performance improvement plan should be exactly that. Hey, this is an issue. Let's work on it together collaboratively. Here's the resources that I will bring as the business to help you improve. Here's what I'm looking for you to do to help you improve. But should be an opportunity.

[B]

And again, that circles back to that initial conversation too. It also makes it so much easier, right? If you're working with someone for 90 days and everybody else is hitting 50 and they're hitting 30 and you're talking to them weekly and you're going through this like at the end of the 90 days, your con, you can't force people to want. Your conscious is going to be a lot clearer and easier on you as well as they understand. Like, there's no reason. Why are you letting me go? This is hardship for my family. Like, you've had 90 days. You, you understood the requirements. Like, this is a huge portion of it.

[A]

Well, I think it's less conscious, but you know, there's the, the gwc. Do you. Does someone get the job? Do they understand what it is? Do they want the job? Hey, I understand it, but I don't want it. Or maybe I do want it. And three, do they have the capacity to do it mental or physical? So do they get it? Do they want it? Do they have the capacity to do it? And a part of the opportunity to improve is like, do they want it? Like, they get it. They know what I'm wanting from them. They probably have the capacity. They're intelligent enough. They were hitting those numbers at one Point or we hired them because we thought we they could do that. Right. We believe at one point they had the cap capacity to do this, the capabilities to do it. But maybe they don't want it. And I can't force you to want it, but yeah, get it. Want it. Capacity to do it.

[B]

Gwc. All right, that down.

[A]

Gwc, baby. Yep. Okay, my last two on this is fast decision. If it's obvious like if, if I, I always bring this back to is this person thriving like we brought them here to thrive? Are they thriving? Like they were super excited about joining our company? We were super excited about them joining our company. Did we achieve our mutual vision of them winning? Yes. No. If not, they're not winning. By keeping them around they're losing. They could potentially go somewhere else where they're able to get the job better, want the job better, have the capacity to do that job better. And at this point we are just holding them back. So have a fast decision once it's fairly obvious and just be transparent about that decision with that team member and then have a respectful low exit or a low drama exit if that's where it ends up.

[B]

Yeah. I mean again, that documenting of upfront and documenting throughout the process makes all those that more possible as well. Because again, even worse than like somebody who doesn't, who is high drama but producing or even somebody who is low drama but, but definitely not producing is like there's this weird middle area where someone's like always rides the line of just barely above good enough to keep their job. And I think that that's an important thing to like from a cultural standpoint, from your business standpoint, unless you need that person as a space holder, like it's really not beneficial to your specific business is not beneficial to that person. And I think alludes to what you're saying is like, hey, you're holding them back, they're holding you back. Why are you guys doing this? And the reason is just like, because they're barely making it and so are they barely making it because of expectations because of, you know, X, Y or Z. And so I do think it's important because those, the, the people who ride that can be more detrimental to your business as leeches. And leeches is like a negative connotation but just like as not good fit that def. I mean leeches from the business, like there's no way around that comment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so making sure that like, hey, if you have one of those people that you're giving them clear expectations that they have all that writing, they know what they're supposed to be hitting so that it's not ambiguous.

[A]

And you have a system to help get there.

[B]

Well, because like, I think a lot of times when you're smaller, you don't have those systems, you don't have those numbers, you don't have that. And so you're just kind of going based on feel because you don't have good data. So you're going off feel, you're going off, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that that's where you really get hit hard by this situation. So, like, if you're smaller, try and get some kind of metric in place for KPIs. Like it's that important.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, at one point you thought this candidate was the greatest thing since sliced bread. So what changed between that day and today and how much of that was you versus them? If you're running a home service business and you're growing, but cash still somehow feels tight all the time, you are not alone. A lot of owners are doing more revenue, hiring more people, buying more trucks, but still making big decisions without really knowing what the numbers are telling them. And that's why I'm such a big fan of what Tyler Martin is doing at CFO Made Easy. He works with H Vac, plumbing and electrical companies in that 4 to 12 million range. And it's real CFO level support, not bookkeeping and not tax stuff. This is actual help around cash flow, pricing, margins and planning ahead. One of the cool things is you get to work directly with Tyler. And Tyler has scaled and sold a $25 million service business. So he's been in it and he knows what works. To get started, click the link below to book a free 20 minute strategy call to review your numbers, identify what's creating cash or market margin pressure and get clear next steps.

[B]

We thought they were great candidates, John, because they've interviewed a lot at a lot of different places because they're not great candidates. Boom.

[A]

Maybe, I don't know.

[B]

Mind blown, maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Good coverage of. I don't think we have 40 minutes of how to fire people and why, but I'm, I'm here for it, man.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think it starts with like. Yeah, I mean the why is important and I, I just, I know some of the most helpful feedback that you get for like, where's a gap in my business is if someone quit or if you have to terminate somebody. Like, it's a very. Something happened because I'm not, I'm really not exaggerating. From this. Like, you thought this candidate was the shit at one point, but today you're thinking different. What happened? Like, what happened? Like, what happened there? Did they have a tough manager experience? Whereas did they have a toxic co worker? Did you not set expectations? Did you not have a system to help them deliver great results? Like, something happened where you both went from two excited people to, hey, this isn't working. And I think that. But figuring out what that is is really important because it helps you move the whole business forward. I mean, what if it's a toxic manager and, hey, this guy is a canary in the coal mine? You're going to lose one person, but you might be about to lose 10 because this manager just is driving it down. Or maybe the way you dispatch calls is driving everybody nuts and this is the feedback so you can make that change. So, I don't know. I think it's really important feedback and I think it's important to get right because it's people, it's human beings. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. This is a tough one if you're going through it. Comment more on the Facebook group. There are 1, 200 other contractors that have to deal with it that are on that group every day. Thanks for tuning in. If you liked what you heard, give me a. Like, give me a sub and follow along for more.

[B]

Thanks, guys.