How to Turn Referrals Into a Scalable, Predictable Growth Engine

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Owned and Operated
Episode Title: How to Turn Referrals Into a Scalable, Predictable Growth Engine
Release Date: January 13, 2026
Host: John Wilson
Guest: Murphy Nadal, Co-Founder of Refer Pro

This episode explores how home service businesses—specifically in plumbing, HVAC, and electrical—can turn client referrals from an underutilized, organic channel into a scalable, data-driven source of consistent growth. Host John Wilson and guest Murphy Nadal break down the psychology of referrals, common pitfalls, and actionable strategies for systematizing and incentivizing referrals among customers, staff, and business affiliates, using both industry best practices and Refer Pro’s technology platform.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Untapped Potential of Referrals

• Huge Delta Between Willingness and Action:
  “83% of your customers are willing to refer your business. Only 29% actually do.” (Murphy Nadal, 00:08)
  That’s a 54% gap of missed opportunities.

• Referrals are as Old as Time:
  Most home service businesses grew from referrals and word-of-mouth, but few systematize or optimize this channel.
  (Murphy, 01:18)

2. Why Referrals Slip Through the Cracks

• Three Main Gaps Identified:
  • Awareness: Customers don’t wake up thinking of your business months later.
  • Attribution: Difficult to track who referred whom—meaning business can’t reward referrals effectively.
  • Incentivization Logistics: Manual processes (like buying and delivering gift cards) are cumbersome and inefficient.
    (Murphy, 03:14–04:47)

3. Three Referral Funnel “Buckets”

• Customers: Existing customer base is the largest source.
• Employees/Technicians: Harnessing staff in-person touchpoints can be highly effective, especially if incentivized and tracked.
• Affiliates/B2B: Other businesses (like realtors, plumbers, inspectors) are a powerful, often untapped source. Tools can help create “an army of affiliates.”
  (Murphy, 07:02–09:46)

4. Systematizing The Referral Process

• Automation is Key:
  Tech platforms (like Refer Pro) now automate:

  • Referral requests and reminders
  • Reward tracking and payout (with many options incl. digital gift cards)
  • Attribution via CRM integration (e.g., Service Titan, Jobber)
    (John & Murphy, 05:40–09:46)

• Personalization at Scale:
  Using AI and customer history, outreach is personalized—“scaling personalized outreach for your business instead of just a marketing blast.” (Murphy, 14:15)

5. Incentive Structures and Conversion Rates

• Tiered Incentives:
  Size of the reward should match the value of the job (HVAC install vs. small service call).

  • $100–$250: Big jump in conversion.
  • $500+: “Off the charts.”
    (Murphy, 18:42–19:47)

• Efficient Pay-Out:
  “You’re not paying that marketing fee until you’ve already got the revenue in the door.” (Murphy, 19:47)

• Conversion Data:

  • Technician in-person: 40% conversion rate from exposure to actual referral. (Murphy, 18:42)
  • Overall: 1–2% referral rate per outreach message, but grows as awareness builds.
    (Murphy, 34:21–34:50)

6. Best Practices for Outreach and Timing

• Customization & Timing:
  Outreach should reference the specific service, technician’s name, and include a video from the owner or GM. “The goal is to have them feel like you’re personally reaching out.” (Murphy, 29:15–29:32)

• Campaign Cadence:
  Avoid sending review and referral requests at the same time; space out intelligently to maximize engagement.
  (Murphy, 30:33–31:49)

7. When Referral Programs Don’t Work

• Business Size Matters:
  Programs are less effective with under 1,000 customers—referrals are a numbers game. (Murphy, 21:55–22:57)

• Risk Areas:

  • Slow lead follow-up kills momentum.
  • Delay or omission of referral rewards reduces program enthusiasm.
    (Murphy, 44:47–45:48)

8. The Future of Referral Marketing

• AI-Powered Personalization:
  Campaigns will get “much more personalized—targeting customers when they want it, based on their behavior.” (Murphy, 37:08–39:13)

• A/B Testing at Scale:
  “We can A/B test across millions and millions of end users now to understand what drives behavior.” (Murphy, 39:45)

9. Cost Effectiveness and ROI

• Lower CAC vs. Paid Advertising:
  "If you look at, I spent a million dollars on Google versus the ROI on my referral campaign...whatever we spent in incentives back to our customers is a fraction of that." (Murphy, 42:28–43:10)

• Incentive Payments Go Back Into Customer Base:
  Investing into customers not only drives new business, but enhances customer loyalty and retention.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Opening Insight

“Home service businesses are sitting on a gold mine of referrals. But most businesses, they’re not asking for referrals. They’re not asking for reviews.”
— Murphy Nadal (00:00)

Foundational Math

“83% of your customers are willing to refer your business. Only 29% actually do. So there’s this 54% delta… Our whole focus is to bridge that gap.”
— Murphy Nadal (00:08)

The Power of Data-Driven Approach

“You’re basically scaling personalized outreach for your business versus just a marketing blast.”
— Murphy Nadal (14:15)

Incentive Tiers

“We have up to $2,000 [for a roofing referral]. In HVAC between $100 and $500, depending on your tolerance.”
— Murphy Nadal (18:59)

Automation vs. Manual Referral Management

“If it’s hard to do, it doesn’t happen. We’re too busy in our businesses…if you leave it to happen organically, you’ll get some...but to automate and put a system in place—that’s the power of where we’re headed with technology.”
— Murphy Nadal (48:15)

Host Realization

“I get it more for the homeowner now…It allows us to do things we were never able to do before…But the customer one—just knowing my own behavior, I would probably be among the 17% that would not refer, just because I don’t know that I’ve ever thought to do that.”
— John Wilson (47:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Explaining the 54% Referral Gap: 00:08
• Three Referral “Buckets”: 07:02–09:46
• Incentive Structures & Data: 18:42–19:47
• Personalization & Technology Trends: 14:15, 37:08, 39:13
• ROI vs. Google/LSA: 42:28–43:10
• Warning Signs & Pitfalls: 44:47–45:48

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a hands-on, data-packed blueprint for home service businesses to move from passive word-of-mouth to a proactive, tech-driven referral marketing engine. The discussion highlights the drastic improvement in close rates, cost effectiveness, and customer loyalty when referrals are properly tracked, incentivized, and personalized—especially using modern tech and AI. For any owner operator wanting to unlock incremental (and often massive) growth, referrals are “the channel hiding in plain sight.”

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Transcript

[A]

Home service businesses are sitting on a gold mine of referrals. But most businesses, they're not asking for referrals. They're not asking for reviews.

[B]

What do you think my biggest win would be? We Start doing this?

[A]

83% of your customers are willing to refer your business. Only 29% actually do. So there's this 54% delta of customers who would refer you, but who don't refer you. Our whole focus is to bridge that gap.

[B]

It seems like more technology is coming up around it in the last 18 months than I've ever seen.

[A]

That's where referral is so powerful. You're basically scaling personalized outreach for your business in person stuff. The employees are much more efficient. How much did that incentive be for your technician in roofing? We have up to 2,000.

[B]

$2,000 is amazing.

[A]

It converts at a high ratio.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I want to start getting referrals. What do I say?

[A]

It's.

[B]

Welcome back to owned and operated. I'm your host, John Wilson, and today I am joined by Murphy Nadal from Refer Pro, and we are talking about how to drive referrals into your business to help you grow.

[A]

Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here with you.

[B]

Yeah, this will be fun. Like I said moments ago off camera, refer feels like one of those things that should work. Like you always want it. It's like word of mouth. Like, how do you, like, institutionalize word of mouth? But we've never been able to do a great job of it. So I'm excited to learn. I'm excited to figure out how to do it.

[A]

Yeah, that's what we, that's what we talk about all day. We become experts. My background is in some home service background. And so we've seen this from the operator side and now working with businesses across the country, just what that, what that difference is. Referrals are as old as time. Right. We're not reinventing the wheel here. That's how most of our companies and customers and partners have gotten most of their business historically. But there's just a big gap that we can dive into on how you take that from organic and kind of set it aside and let it happen naturally to systematizing it and actually seeing results at scale within your company.

[B]

Yeah. So what was your background in. In home service?

[A]

Yeah, so I guess most of my background is tech work for a company called Ubiquiti, similar to Cisco. Robert Pera owns Memphis Grizzlies and kind of in your neck of the woods over here. Worked for him for five Years on the tech side, did some other AI and machine learning startups. But within that time period, I also had a home service company. It was an Airbnb short term rental cleaning business that we scaled up and sold. So, okay, within that year or so that we scaled and sold that business, I saw this pain point. And then just personally, as we were in Utah, we finished our basement in our landscape. I had 15 different home service contractors from H vac, plumbing, electrical, everybody in kind of a unique situation within two months at my house. And so I was getting referrals, I was passing those referrals on and seeing how those businesses manage that process. We started to ask them, you know, what that process was like and it was a total, a total nightmare for most of those companies. But they said all that business, and we know now in home service, most of that business does come from referrals, word of mouth, organically happening. And so we kind of built that, that was an incubator with all those, those 15 companies that were in my home over those two months. We built exactly what they wanted to manage that referral process. And that's when Refer Pro was born. Two, two and a half, three years ago at this point.

[B]

Okay, yeah. What did they want?

[A]

So it was, I think I imagined.

[B]

The way the story was going to go is we built exactly what they wanted and then we had to destroy it because they didn't know what they wanted. Like I thought that's what the pitch.

[A]

Yeah, it was, it was a balance of those two kind of taking, hey, here's the problem more so. And like, how can we solve that problem? Right. They didn't, they didn't know the solution necessarily. But yeah, there's three gaps. An interesting stat that we found in home service specifically is that 83% of your customers are willing to refer your business. Meaning you've done the hard work.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

You've built the trust. They're, they're ready to refer you. Right. There's obviously some that are upset, but only 29% actually do. So 83% are willing. Only 29% actually do.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And in most cases, I think it's actually less than 29% they're actually referring you actively. So there's this 54% delta of customers who would refer you, but who don't refer you for whatever reason. We've broken it down those three reasons. Number one is just creating awareness. You've got to stay front of mind with your customers. So they're not naturally waking up. Some of them are. But six months later, 12 months later, they don't wake up thinking about your H Vac company or your plumbing company. Right. They've got, they got other things. So you've got to stay front of mind, you've got to create that awareness. That's the first thing that we solve. Number two is tracking that attribution. So whether you service titan or whatever CRM it might be, we can track that attribution back into service titan. So every time you get a referral, you know exactly who it came from, whether it was a customer, if there was a technician involved in that process, or if it was another affiliate, B2B referrals or other affiliates, technicians from other companies. So making it very easy to track the. Track the data, the attribution, have that data present so that you can then reward those people on that. On the third side, these businesses in my home, for example, we're offering referral incentives. I've been offered so many, hey, 200 bucks for a successful referral here, 500 bucks from who? From these home service businesses. Right. Hey, if you send us a successful referral, we'll reward you for that. But without the attribution, there's no way to do that.

[B]

So you as a homeowner.

[A]

As a homeowner.

[B]

Oh, interesting. I don't know that I've ever been.

[A]

Offered a. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I would take 200 bucks.

[A]

Yeah. So it's, I mean, and we can get into. There's. That's a huge lever we can pull depending on the vertical. Right. If you're H Vac or roofing, it depends on the ROI and what you're willing to spend. But yep, you can incentivize those people for those referrals and it makes them that much more likely. But if you offer the incentive, these businesses were driving around to Walgreens picking up gift cards, dropping them off, and they wasted an hour of their day just to do that. And so if you can automate that system and say, hey, John, or for Jane, and as soon as Jane pays and we can track that invoice data and we can then automate the payment to John for that. And then we have 230 redemption options for rewards for customers, for affiliates, for your, for your technicians on the job to get them motivated and excited and bought into that process. So that's how our whole focus is to bridge that gap. How do we get more incremental referrals on top of what you get organically?

[B]

Today, A lot of home service companies rely on referrals and they just don't have a great way to manage them. Most customers are pretty happy to recommend you, but without reminders or tracking, those referrals kind of disappear. So Referrer Pro helps keep that from happening. It automates referral collection, attribution and payouts so your customers actually follow through and you can focus on the work that matters. Referral leads convert faster, cost less, and help your business grow without buying more ads. You can see how it works and book a [e-mail] or through the link in our show Notes, mention owned and operated for 20% off and a discounted onboarding. Because most people are willing to refer you. They just need a little help remembering. I remember hearing about, like, this type of technology, I don't know, like six months ago or something like that. And the first thing that came to my mind had nothing to do with homeowners at all. So I'm. I'm really interested to, like, hear how that works. But it was very B to B2B, which is still awesome. We almost do no B2B, but my first thought was referring Realtors or home inspection companies or even, can you use it somehow to refer other. Like, we own a restoration department, so can we use that to beef out the amount of plumbers in other companies that, like, hey, refer your buddy who's also a plumber, and send us leads. So that was, like, my first thought. Is that something that.

[A]

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, especially as you mentioned on the restoration side, where there's a lot of, you know, referrals from plumbers. We can manage that. I think we put that into three buckets. There's customer referrals. Home service businesses are sitting on a gold mine of referrals from your existing customer base. So that's. That's funnel number one. I think that's. That drives the highest volume.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bucket number two is your existing. Your employees, your technicians that are in the home. Historically, you guys probably do a better job of this. But most businesses, they're not asking for referrals. They're not asking for reviews because their goal is to get to the next job.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're incentivized to get to the next job, get done for the day. So if they have an incentive and the same thing, if that data is getting tracked and they're getting rewarded for those referrals, they have some skin in the game.

[B]

What does that. I'm trying to envision, like, what that would look like.

[A]

So we provide anyone that signs up for a FER pro. We Provide a whole onboarding box. So there's physical materials for those technicians. They've got NFC technology on their keychain that they can scan to tap to scan kind of technology they've got.

[B]

So like they're going to neighbors houses or like they drive a new lead in the house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From the same home. Yeah, I'm in the home. Okay.

[A]

And it's. Yeah. As we're, as we're wrapping up. Hey, Jane, thanks so much for having us. If you know anyone else that needs their H VAC done today or anytime.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Scan this QR code. I've got a badge on my hip or it's on my phone or it's. It's tap to scan technology. There's multiple different ways QR codes on the truck. Leave behinds. Right. Leave them the business card. You know what? I don't have one right now, but thank you for scanning this. Then. Then that technician gets credit. And then later that night, we follow up with a drip campaign. So they get the text, they get the email.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That kind of kicks that off. So it's a warm intro. They heard about it from their technician, they shared the text message, and then we can engage them throughout the year. So it's, you know, it takes multiple touch points. But then three months later, when they're thinking about it and someone at the barbecues needs H vac on, they're coming to you. They remember that technician. They remember their code. They've got an affiliate link. Instead of just passing it over, they're thinking, hey, I can get paid out on this. So I'm going to put it through my link and send this referral. So, yeah, in the home, the technique, we want to get the technicians involved for sure.

[B]

Yeah. No, that's interesting. All right. What was the third bucket?

[A]

Yeah, third bucket is affiliates. So that could be other businesses that can be technicians of other businesses. So for your restoration business, you're looking at, hey, how many plumbing businesses can we get on as an affiliate?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And historically, what's happened here is, is that business has their own priorities. Their technicians are in the home. The last thing they're thinking about is referring your restoration company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you want to make it very easy for them again, stay front of mind with them. Give them links to automate and track that and spiff them if you can. Right. So, so then the technicians of those plumbing businesses that are in the home, seeing those problems that you can come do restoration with, they have that link in the ability to send that lead to you and it's tracked. So go straight to your csr. It gets tracked in Refer Pro as well as your CRM service titan. And so it just streamlines that whole process from customers to technicians to affiliates. And there's, there's multiple buckets for affiliates. It could be Realtor, it could be another plumbing company.

[B]

In this case, some something. We were looking into this for our restoration department. I think we launched it, I got check. But we were going to use click funnels, which is like not the use case for this at all. But they have, they have like this affiliate section. But the whole idea was. And so maybe this would be a feature. Feature request.

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[B]

Bring it on. Yeah, it's awesome. What would be sick is can you, if you're trying to bring on more like plumbing referrals as a restoration department or realtors or whatever, like that's a very easy group to find on Facebook. So we were going to run Facebook ads and do a click funnels campaign and then like build out an affiliate package underneath that. Yeah, I like so yeah, because I think the only downside. Well, it's an easy pitch like restoration or any of this stuff is an easy pitch like, hey, do you want to make extra money? Like do you literally just want to make extra money?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Building this army of advocates, this army of affiliates. And so that is an interesting take.

[B]

We could definitely spit because all of it's in person. But like how, like if it's a B2B referral thing, like you can just as easily run meta ads on that.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And the, our landing pages, the affiliate links that every customer and employee and affiliate gets are integrated into social media platforms. So okay, they can integrate into text. So when they tee up that two or three way text, it's starting the attribution piece so it can funnel that lead and track who sent it. It's also integrated into the Facebook group Instagram for you when people post. So it kicks off that attribution on the, on the front end as well as obviously that sits there in that Facebook community page for years to come collecting referrals from that. So.

[B]

Yeah. And recruitment, are people using it for recruitment yet?

[A]

Yeah, some of the bigger. Yeah, the bigger the business, the more need there is for that. So we work with a lot of the, the PE back up groups that one of their big problems is, hey, obviously we want more leads and more business, but also we need more technicians.

[B]

So.

[A]

Totally. Yeah, I mean, I mean the most likely group to recruit technicians from is within your technicians. Their Their circle of influence. So you can run in the same same program internally to one, generate new recruits and then to reward and incentivize those to keep them and. And have better retention among your employees as well.

[B]

Yeah. So for like a customer. I'm a customer. You're a customer?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What am I saying to get this person? Because that's where I get stuck on referral technology is I'm just like, why would. Why would anybody give a yeah. What am I saying to get someone to give a yeah?

[A]

You're saying for customer.

[B]

Yeah. Like, how do I. How do I actually turn this? Like one time, maybe. Maybe it's the first bucket, the customer referral bucket, not the employees on site. And, you know, we like Jimmy or something like that. I'm gonna do a favor, like, what am I saying in those messages to sort of ignite some be or change behavior? Get them actually referring.

[A]

That's where, that's where Refer Pro is so powerful. So we want to personalize. You don't want to just send out the same message to everybody. Right, Right. We personalize that data based on past behavior. So if you have 10,000 customers or every year you do a thousand jobs, every one of those customers has a different path and a different journey. So, yeah, you might have Jake over here, who's. Who's done an install with you. They've spent $15,000 and Jake has now sent you 25 referrals. Jake goes into this flow. There's a workflow.

[B]

Jake is Jake.

[A]

Jake is the end user. Yeah, the end user.

[B]

Jake's customer.

[A]

We like Jake based on Jake's past behavior. He sent X amount of reviews. He's referred. He spent this. He gets a separate workflow based on his past behavior.

[B]

So because he's a baller, like, right. 25 is. That's a lot.

[A]

Jake's a VIP, right. So you put him. You have different workflows versus Jane, who maybe has done a service call and you've never heard from her again. Right. You send.

[B]

So we're trying to find like power refers.

[A]

Power refers. We're filtering them, okay. With. With AI to decide who are the best. Who are the best affiliates. It's the 8020 principle. Right. You're going to take all of your customer base. We're going to get more referrals from all of them, but we're going to start to identify which group of those affiliates over time are going to be your power users. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The ones who are like, they probably.

[B]

Have spent the most with Us already.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not even the most, but probably like the most number of instances. It might be less money, but if they've used us 10 times, like one guy that used us for 20 grand once versus 20 grand over 10 invoices, the second guy likes us more.

[A]

Yeah, typically. But there's also. That's what's cool with the data is that doesn't always mean that they're going to refer more. You could get referrals from someone who's used you for a service call.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who at birth versus someone who's used you 10 times and just doesn't refer. So.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's. It's more about staying front of mind and then tracking what happens so that you can, you can react accordingly with a personalized message. So when your customer, Jane feels like, hey, this is a, this is a typical review request post service, that's one thing. It still works, don't get me wrong. But when you have the sentiment analysis and the workflows to attribute that three months later, you can talk to Jane about, hey, we saw that you used, you know, we bought, we paid you Delta, a Delta gift card. How, how are your flights? And you know, do you have anyone else. You can cater that message personally to her so she feels like it's a person reaching out. And you can then scale. You're basically scaling personalized outreach for your business versus just a marketing blast, for example. So as a business owner, the more scale you get, the more valuable that becomes to keep personalized touch points with all of your customers and then track that data so that you can react to that in future campaigns. So those campaigns are a really powerful piece.

[B]

Oh yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. So, like, who is the. If I'm looking at my customer base today, who is like the best. A power refer is going to be like 1%, right. Or what percentage? I guess.

[A]

Yeah. The cool thing is you got leaderboards. It's different for every business. Right.

[B]

For, for.

[A]

Depending on. You want to look at your ticket size, you want to look at all, all these different factors. But it's. Yeah. Anywhere between 1 and 10% of your customers are going to be like 10+ refers. And then there's kind of these tiers. Right.

[B]

10+ refers as in like they will give 10+ referral.

[A]

Yeah. There's kind of this, this tier, this top tier, who are like, they're telling everyone they know about it over that year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the reason why is because historically, if they send you a referral for. The case for most businesses is they never hear about that again. So for me, from experience, I've sent referrals to these businesses. And then I talked to my buddy, two weeks later, he's like, dude, I can't even get a hold of him. Don't even call me back, right? So it's making sure that lead gets tracked and the CSR is on top of it immediately. That's one thing. The speed to lead following those referrals is huge, obviously. So making sure that data gets funneled accordingly. And then there's, as those leads get taken care of, that, that person now they're more, much more willing to refer in the future because they know that they trust your business, that they're going to take care of the lead, that they get credit for it. And then if instead of, you know, you do offer some sort of incentive, hey, if you're H Vac, every new install will give you a $250 incentive for that. Pay that all day, right? That's way lower customer acquisition cost than traditional marketing methods. Not that it replaces that, but it's, it's a nice value add. They get that the next day versus your finance team having to cut a check that takes a month and in most cases never happens. They get that incentive automatically the next day. And as they're that Delta gift card for flights to Mexico or whatever, they're thinking about your business. So now they're much more likely to refer because they resonate that experience with your business. They're like, hey, Wilson hooks it up, right? They take care of me when I send referrals. So I'm going to be sending more and more referrals. And then you've got the dashboard, the leaderboard internally so you can see which of those customers are your power users, how much you're sending them, how many referrals, how much revenue they're driving. Very, very micro based data on not just our referral channel campaign compared to our other, you know, Google and Meta ads, but, but broken down by customer and employee or affiliate, you can see all of that data.

[B]

What of the three buckets, what's the highest performing?

[A]

Well, it's customers, just from a pure volume perspective, I think for, for individuals.

[B]

Just because I could send a blast.

[A]

Yeah, it's a numbers game versus like.

[B]

The 200 we saw today or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean your existing customers on those post service and there's a recency bias, right? You're going to be more effective. That post service is more effective than, than one way later. But, but it all Builds on each other and it builds momentum. Yeah, I think the, that in person stuff, the employees are much more efficient, so the volume's not as big. But if you've got a business like yours that has a ton of employees and technicians out in the field, if you can get them bought in on that process and incentivized accordingly, they could drive a much larger share of the revenue because it's much more efficient. The, the badge scan or you know that in person interaction when they scan that to their link, it's a 40% conversion rate to a referral on a successful referral, but referral received. So that's much higher than the campaigns. The campaigns just have a bigger volume. So it just depends on, on your business a little bit. It's a volume play, but it's also an efficiency play. So it's balancing those things. And we've got a lot of data to support. Hey, what is the timing of those messages and the triggers and the verbiage that you should send in those different cadences to personalize it? How much should that incentive be for your technician, your employee, for, for the customer? When should those go out? The higher the better. So we want to work backwards from your business. If you're H Vac and your average ticket size is X, we want to work backwards from there. It's all roi.

[B]

So but could it be segmented? So like H Vac is a great example because on the install side it's like $15,000. On the service it might be like 200.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not like you can pay. So, so you can do that. So like, hey, you referred an install, so you get, I don't know what, $200.

[A]

Yeah. Up to people. I mean, in roofing we have up to 2,000 people.

[B]

Oh yeah, sign me up for that.

[A]

And H vac between 100 and 500, depending on your tolerance, what you want to do. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There are big, there are big levers from 50 to 100. There's a huge jump in conversion from 100 to 250. Another massive jump.

[B]

Really.

[A]

500 is off the charts. Like, so you just have to decide, hey, what are we willing. What's our customer acquisition cost? Yeah, the higher you go, it's still. You're giving that back to your customer. It's still probably going to be less than you would spend on a traditional install customer acquisition. So we work with the business, we work as consultants to say, hey, here's the data, here's what we know. But you, you obviously Decide what works best for you. But yeah, there are pretty significant conversion rate differences. The higher that.

[B]

So, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. So 50 to 100, 100, 250. 250 to 5 and 5 and up.

[A]

Yeah. And you tear it. So, yeah, up to that. And we have tiers built out. So yeah, if it's a service. If it's a Service, call for 350 bucks, you're not going to pay out a 250 incentive on that. So it's tiered based on revenue and you don't pay that out until you get the revenue on it. So that's, that's the beautiful thing for the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we partner with is you're not paying that marketing fee until you've already got the, the revenue in the door.

[B]

Yeah. I'm trying to imagine how the tier system would work. So someone just inserts the tiers and then Joe refers Jane. Jane could buy something for 100 bucks and she gets. Joe gets 50 or 20,000, she gets 500 or something like that. So it's built in as tiers or do I just pick 500?

[A]

Yeah, we build out those tiers in onboarding. It's, it's a consultative approach. And I think half the value, obviously, is having the technology with the Refer Pro platform.

[B]

But we could have multiple. We could do whatever we want.

[A]

You do whatever you want. We, we consult with you in onboarding and say, hey, how do you want to build out this template? So your customers are getting that messaging, they understand it. And then on the back end, when we get that referral, John refers Jane, it stacks into a tier and then you have the flexibility to stick with that tier. Or in certain cases you can break the mold. But, but it's set up so it automates that payout on the back end based on the tiers that we set up when you, when you started, essentially.

[B]

Yeah, it feels pretty good. I mean, it, it seems like. I mean, roofing would be really interesting. Windows. So you guys like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, all that big stuff seems huge. $2,000 is amazing.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it converts to the high ratio, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

They're paying more, but I, I think in the long run they would rather give that back to their customer. It pays off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the long run with, with the customer acquisition costs. And it's all data driven. Right. You look at that. Every business is a little different. That's why we work as consultants to help you figure out what the best practices are and how those actually apply. To your business but based on the return on your other marketing methods, how do we, how do we stack on top of that? Right, you don't want to replace that. They're both powerful engines but generally speaking the referral side of things, no matter how much you incentivize is going to be cheaper in the long run. Getting those, you look at the first time referral and the revenue driven but also the lifetime value of that customer now is huge too, especially on those big ticket items.

[B]

When does it not work?

[A]

Yeah, I think there's cases where two big things, if you're really, really small, it's a numbers game. So if you're a brand new business, referrals are tough because you don't have customers to ask referrals from. So I think the bigger the business the better.

[B]

Is there like a good customer list size to start?

[A]

If you're under a thousand, it's tricky. Unless again you lean into, hey, we've got affiliates, we want to use tech plumbing technicians to refer our business as restoration or you know, if you've got a massive ticket size and you only need if the number of referrals you need for a successful ROI is less great. So there are some levers there like if you're roofing under a thousand, you can still see success. But generally speaking, if you're under a thousand customers, we typically tell people, hey, let's, let's help you, we'll get ready but don't, don't start refer pro until, until you've got a little bit bigger base to start with because yeah, we want to set you up for success. So I think that's the number one thing is just size of the business. And so yeah, we work with all the, all the, all the bigger PE roll ups across the country down to, you know, we do work with owner operators really, really small businesses and there's ways we can see success but generally speaking it is a numbers game obviously.

[B]

So yeah, that's interesting. Any, any thought, any take on like referring mattering in 20, 25, 26 more than like 21, 22 or is it just. It seems like more technology is coming up around it in the last 18 months than I've ever seen.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's, I don't know that it's a specific difference from five years ago, but I would say it is much more possible now to take what has historically been viewed as an organic channel that's left on the shelf. Yeah, most of our business comes from referrals and we don't touch it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My question is, hey, if most of your business comes from referrals and word of mouth, what are you doing to optimize that? That's your number one channel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If we can increment, if we can get 10, 20% growth in that channel, how valuable is that for your business? And most people look at me with a blank stare. It's like, hey, we can help you with that. So I think it's taking the tools that are available now, plugging that in, that automation, that technology that's available to help scale that across, across your whole business within your technicians. So I think it's more just what's possible now. And instead of treating that as an organic off the shelf, just leave, let that be, be proactive. I think there's a lot of value that people don't realize in being proactive about referrals that you can go get incremental new revenue that we track and there's roi, you know, every day you'll see the top of the dashboard ROI on how many clicks to how many referrals to how many successful referrals to how much revenue do we generate this month. And it becomes such a no brainer once you see that funnel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Across the referral platform.

[B]

Yeah. Leads are complicated. Like I, I see people getting more leads. The challenge is closing them. But I would assume like a referral versus like a more transactional Google experience would probably do better, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, I mean could you have data to back that up?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean on the conversion rate and the close rate. Yeah, yeah, 100. So we see any. And if you look at this from the top down, you get a referral who came from a trusted friend or family that's already used you. What's your experience with those?

[B]

I think you're so yeah, we're an old business. 70 years. So like most of our business is repeat. 70% of our daily appointments is. Are repeat.

[A]

Yeah, that's awesome. So being.

[B]

Yeah it is. And you know we're, we're acquiring other businesses right now and it's funny to look at some of. Not funny like bad but just different. You know we're looking at these businesses and we're like, oh man, like 80 of their businesses net new customers every day but they have a customer list of 9,000. So like what does that, how, what do we do there? How do we sort of reactivate these customers? So we have like a reactivation sequence that we're going to start putting them through but the referral thing's pretty interesting. Your team's doing the work. Big reputation. Make sure that Google knows it. Some of the key areas they help are if you have multiple gbps, they can post on every single one of them every day. They can send reviews by your closest GBP to wherever the job was completed. And they have built in SEO heat maps that show exactly where you rank on the map pack in real time. There's no more manual updates, no more missed opportunities, just results. Get started free at BigReputation AI and unlock 15 free SEO scans today.

[A]

Yeah, I mean if you, if you look at someone looks on Google, they're gonna, they're gonna get quotes from five businesses around you. Referrals. I look at a way to skip to the front of the line. If your friend that already used that H Vac company tells you hey, I trust these guys, they're awesome. One when you're especially referrals tend to be bigger ticket items because you lean on trust more when you're doing something big. If it's service call, you might not care. You do the first person on Google they show up and it's great. When you're spending $15,000, you're going to go with who you already saw install down the street that your friend referred you to at the barbecue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you basically skip the line and that's why the conversion rate is so much higher. We see that we use Refer Pro. At Refer Pro a lot of our customers, you know who watch this have come by way of referrals from other businesses.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's so powerful to say, hey, Refer Pro works for us. Here's our dashboard. Look at the results versus oh, I saw them on a, on a marketing ad. I'm going to do all my research. I'm going to go talk to five other people and get quotes. But, but when you get that as a referral, you essentially skip to the front of the line. So it also drives down costs. It's not as hard to close those leads.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're typically golden leads. Lay down in most cases the conversion rates are pretty drastically different from our experience. And obviously that depends on the business. But generally speaking it's, it's a powerful.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. No, I believe it. I believe it. When exact language. I'm trying to imagine what like a customer blast looks like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is where I always get lost. Every time I hear about I'm like well you know, okay, I want to start getting referrals. What do I say?

[A]

Yeah, so some of the elements that make it personalized we want to go. Personalization is huge. So in the first one it's, it's referencing that, that service that day. Maybe it's the technician's name because hopefully that technician said something or they recognize it. It's it. We put videos from the owner in there, right in the, in the landing page. So instead of just the text, it's the owner explaining, hey, thanks so much for using us. Here's our referral program. We want, this is a way for us to give back to you, ways to reference that incentive amount. Right. That's, that's a powerful thing. If you are offering $250, this, this comes across much, much less like a review request or a market. Hey, come 20% off. It's a way to give back to you. Hopefully you already refer us. If you don't. Here's an easy way to do it and we want to give back to you. So they look at it as an opportunity to feel like hey, we're partnered with this business in, in driving more referrals and they're going to take care of us. It's a mutual benefit here versus just they're asking me for something. So those are some of the levers that we can pull on that first message. Obviously as we follow on that cadence is important. The timing is important. We want to stay front of mind. And so whether that touch point is triggered on past behavior, whether they, they drive a Google review and that's a good time to, to follow up. There's also other campaigns that we can drive too, like RE engagement. You know, a byproduct of asking for referrals is re engaging those customers to come back and book revenue. So we track all that, all those repeat customers coming back because you engage them with that referral request or it could be a membership sign up request. Right. There's a lot of different ways that we can engage. The goal is to have a personalized way to stay front of mind and that drives referrals, that drives re engaging customers returning. So those are some of the levers that we can pull to stay personalized. That's the goal. Keep it personalized. The goal is to have them feel like you're personally reaching out with that video with that custom message that's coming to them.

[B]

That, so I'm, I'm trying to imagine how the video works in like a P.E. roll up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who's the video up?

[A]

Yeah. In, in that case it depends, right? It could be the gm. It could Be, it could be anyone.

[B]

It's a driven individual. By brand still.

[A]

Yeah, still by brand.

[B]

Jim Bob from Jim Bobs.

[A]

Yeah, all that, all that outreach is branded. Those, those landing pages are branded to the business. Your logo's there. Everything is branded to the business. So I mean, it depends. Whoever the business wants is the face. It could be the gm, it could be a csr, it could be a technician that. Yeah, that's. It's good on camera. You decide. It depends on the scale of the business. But just having that way to scale personalized outreach, the bigger the business, the harder it becomes to stay in touch with your gig. It's impossible at some stage. Right. And so having the way to.

[B]

Well, I almost wonder if it's the opposite because as you're saying this, some of the feedback that we've been getting recently and we're like adjusting to it is like, hey, you've gone too far. Like there's too much communication.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From a plumbing company which, like a, like, yeah. At the end of the day, like we're here to fix toilets. So I'm trying to imagine how this blends in with the review request or the reactivation campaigns or like all of the other stuff that now happens inside customer databases.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What have you guys seen?

[A]

Yeah. So today those actions and triggers in our campaigns are based off of those other things. So again, part of that consultative approach during onboarding is, hey, what do you.

[B]

Already, what else are you using?

[A]

Yeah, when does your review go out? When do you do xyz?

[B]

Yeah, let's avoid those rehash campaigns for sales. Like it's a lot. There's a lot that goes out these days.

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, it's about, like you said, it's a balance of staying front of mind and not overdoing it. So yeah, this intelligent approach, we've got this, this campaign feature that can trigger an action based on when you want it. So yeah, we'll delay that. We'll say, hey, if you've got, if you've got three things already post service, let's delay that a week till tell. It's a better time to send that. And ultimately driving and kind of unifying that channel with this intelligent outreach is the long term goal here. But for now it's, it's, yeah. Reacting to what you already have in place and spacing that out intelligently so it's not hitting them with the same thing. And also it's much more effective if you, if you reach out at the same time. And ask for a review or referral, a membership request and an invoice payment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three hours after the job you're going to get the invoice and they're not going to do anything else. So yeah, you've got to have, have a smart cadence there to make sure you don't want to ask for them all at once. You want to, you want to be intelligent about when that happens so that you get maximum results. If you bombard them with too many requests at the same time, you end up getting nothing. It's too diluted.

[B]

Yeah, I think we're in the age of a lot of communication. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's easy to get, easy to get lost in the sauce.

[A]

And that's also why that personal approach is helpful. Right. You want to engage. If your technicians, they're talking in person, that can be that first touch point. And then you can delay, if you really lean into that employee program, you can delay the messaging for, for later on as a reminder instead of as the first touch point. So, yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of best practices that we can drive. But it's really just blending what works on the referral side of things and how does your business operate today and then bridging that gap to make sure you have a successful program to drive whatever results you're looking for. If, if the results for that month are referrals, let's, let's target that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you've got other, other goals for the following months or quarters, we can, can switch that up.

[B]

I'm trying to imagine how to ask this question. I'm, I'm doing a rough job here, but on a thousand customers, how many referrals? Like, what's the best way to measure that? Like, what should I expect if, if I start doing something?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So backing up a lot of. We have data broken down and, and we go in the onboarding. Hey, based on xyz, if you're going to do this onboard, if you're going to do this incentive, if you've got this many customers, if you technicians hitting it, there's a lot of factors.

[B]

If I do like a $500 incentive. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So those conversion rates very drastically, but generally speaking, you're going to have. So if on the technician, the conversion ratio there, every time that is exposed to them to either tap or scan, it's a 40% conversion to a referral received. That's the best one. The affiliates are similar if they're in person they're also higher because they're, they're lower volume but they're higher tier. So those referrals coming from them are hype. The messaging text is much better than email. We're moving from SMS to RCS too. It's a new standard which is going to personalize that it's pretty cool. Most people don't know about rcs but if you mess with Apple or Delta, for example, historically you're not messaging a number, you're messaging the Wilson logo at the top of that page. And it's, it's a branded experience. It's more of an in app experience from your phone. So it's pretty, it's pretty cool that we're rolling out now. So RCS is a game changer for that to personalize that and improve conversion rates from also deliverability and also just trust of that customer. You're talking to the business with the logo there. So those are the texting conversion rates. Obviously everyone's on their phone. Those are much higher than the email. The email's still good. We target that in a strategic way. But, but the texting converts much higher to clicks, referrals, successful referrals. And that's all driven through that pipeline. So.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And what's a good num like.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

10 out of a thousand. Like I'm trying to imagine how this spiders out.

[A]

Yeah. So if you're looking at just generally speaking, you're between 1 to 2% referral rate per, per message sent, basically. So if you've got a thousand customers and, and, and, and that grows as well with momentum. So the first one is kind of like awareness generating. Right, right. So that'll spread.

[B]

Here's a new program.

[A]

Yeah. Over overall, you know, you're looking at probably 10 referrals per month, per thousand, depending on that cadence.

[B]

If you do per thousand messages or per thousand.

[A]

Per thousand customers. Okay. Yeah. And you don't want to message them all every month either.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's why, that's why it's tough to gauge that you want to, you want to space that out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Your post service is going to be a much higher converting ratio and then, and then your follow on campaigns.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But generally speaking it's going to be the size of the amount of customers you have. Number one, how engaged your technicians are in that process, how high that incentive is. Those, those are the factors that lead to that referral success. And then, and then obviously we track the conversion ratio but some of that depends on the business. So some businesses are Much better than others at, hey, we. We've generated 30. You've got 30 new referrals this month in your platform. Some go convert 70% of those and the revenue is off the charts. Some of them don't do as good of a job of speed to lead or follow up. And so that obviously affects that conversion ratio from, you know, messages sent to revenue generated from the start to the finish. And so there's a lot of factors in there. I'd say we have, we have, we break it down. There's best practices on the, on the platform side that. Here's the tool. If it's used correctly, these are the results that it drives. Part of that is speed to lead, calling those leads, your close rate internally, that stuff is affected greatly by the, by the business as well.

[B]

Yeah, that's really interesting. All right, so for like what, what was T. Tommy, I think he says he hits 20,000 customers a month. So like 200 referrals a month, 300 referrals a month would be like an expectation.

[A]

Yeah, something. A lot. Yeah, something in that ballpark. Yeah, we've got, we've got businesses doing millions of dollars in a few months time. Yeah, that's a lot on referrals. Right.

[B]

So yeah, that's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Again, there's a ton of factors at play, but yeah, I mean, you're looking at average. Average. And it also depends on, you know, which. Which CRM you're using. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We want to work with businesses that have that direct integration. We partner with most of the big ones. You know, we're partners and integrated with, with Service Titan, with Jobber, with Job Nimbus, with Client Tether. With most of these big ones. We can then do secondary, like zapier integrations.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Second part, third party. But part of that helps automate that so the business doesn't have to do anything. It makes it much easier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To get that, that lead flow and conversion rate. So.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's really cool. That's really cool. All right, so what do you think? What do you think future of referral marketing looks like? Like, what do you think's next?

[A]

Yeah, we've leaned on that, that personalized approach. I think that's the big.

[B]

Yeah, that is interesting.

[A]

Is not just taking one going from organic to just letting it happen to then being proactive and then being proactive. Within the age of AI, we don't just use AI to use AI, we use AI to analyze the sentiment of these messages coming in. How do we categorize that customer. What's the past behavior of that customer? And then how do we respond? What, what is the right approach? Right. Instead of just scheduling review, referral and service requests at re engagement campaigns, let's, let's do that in an intelligent way based on that customer's profile. So I think it's going to become much more personalized, targeting those customers when they want it, when they need it. Based on that past behavior.

[B]

How do you, how do you figure out when they want it?

[A]

So we, we have all these trigger points. Their, their sentiment from the inbound messaging. When they respond, we're engaging them. That I mentioned, that's a byproduct as we ask for the referral. For example, they're following up saying, hey, can you guys come out tomorrow to fix my H Vac? And we, and then we trigger the booking link. So hey, yeah, of course. Here's the booking link. Let's get you booked. So we're offloading a lot of that work from the CSR in some cases, obviously we'll push that back to the csr. If they don't book, it'll get pushed to them, but they can book automatically. So it's taking those, those inbound messages. What's the sentiment of that customer? How many rever, how many referrals have they sent? How much have they spent with us? How many reviews? Whatever kind of trigger action you want to track in those engagements, we can track and then cater those follow ups to that. So it's a blend of that, what's that customer experiencing as well as what do we know works in the messaging. So we blend. Hey, here's the, like we mentioned the personalized approach of the incentive amount, the technician's name, the timing of what, what service was completed. If you know those things and can reference that in the message, that becomes much more powerful. Two or three indicators that it's, it's a personalized message versus just hey, this was sent to everybody and I'm not, I'm not a special customer. That goes a long way to personalizing that. So I think moving into the future, it's, it's engaging them in a personalized way, letting them feel special so that they come back and use you again, but that they also trust you to refer you to your friends and family.

[B]

Yeah, that is, that is interesting. I feel like, yeah, it's like V3 maybe because a lot of V1 was like even review requests. I think right now our review requests, we've gone through different sections of personalized versus not yeah, always better personalized. I think right now it's not. And I don't remember why, but yeah, conversion rate's huge. Like, we go from like a 5% review rate to like 19 or 20. Like, just like changing a little bit of like, hey.

[A]

And we're building in. I mean, you've seen those A B tests. That. That's a crazy. That's a crazy change. We're building that into the platform too. So you can see not only your results of a B testing on those campaigns and what the return was on that campaign versus another one, but also the data now from across the country, all these other businesses using that, you can tap into that data and say what, what works and what doesn't? Not, not anything personalized, obviously, but just generally speaking, we, we can a B test across millions and millions of end users now to understand what drives behavior and then embed that in your campaign. So you're not just getting a platform to run a program. You're getting the ability to understand what works based on millions of data points across the country. So, yeah, organic. You know, you send it to a text and hey, good luck. Hope. Hope you guys connect and work out. That's great. That works. In no way are we saying that's not, that's not a good business practice. It is. We're just taking that and saying, hey, let's be proactive. And then like you said, V3 is. Let's be personal about that. Yeah, yeah, proactive and automated. Let's be personal and use those touch points. Use what we know to, to drive higher campaigns and higher conversion ratios there.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. Some. Something. I think I'm. I'm imagining people having an issue with, like, paying for a referral, but I was. We. We just bought. We bought two companies last week, and one of them, we, like, opened up their ads account and it was, it was fun. Like, we've, we see this all the time with Wilson, but we, we have to rebuy our customers all the time. It's like, it's one of the most annoying things that happens because, because we're reactivating, right? Like, we are talking to them. We are reaching out.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're doing all this stuff. But like, we'll. We'll acquire the customer from Angie's List and like, they'll still use us. And then we'll get them from Google Ads and they'll still use us. Then we'll get them from LSA, still use. So I spent like $200 for, to acquire the same customer just repeatedly. Which I, one, I just think is generally funny and two, just cuz someone's in your database doesn't mean that like they'll probably still Google Wilson Plumbing and if you have the settings set up for lsa, like you might still pay for that lead. Like LSA will charge you 50 bucks for a branded search.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is funny. So like, yeah, I think we're, we're always, we're always paying for something.

[A]

Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think for the most part people, I mean if you look at, hey, how much do you pay Google on an annual basis? Right?

[B]

Yeah. Okay. We pay a million.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's, it's good, it's great.

[B]

It's honestly lower than it used to be. A million's like yeah, hell yeah, it.

[A]

Used to be too. It's improving.

[B]

That's. Yeah, it's great.

[A]

But if you look at, hey, I spent a million dollars on Google versus the, the ROI on my referral campaign for incremental.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And that X amount, whatever we spent, you know, in incentives back to our customers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is a fraction of that. And, and it goes to, to, to your point of hey, it's going to our customers. So now they're excited. Like we're, we're investing in our customer. It's not, it's not the same dollar spent. That dollar spent has a much greater chance of coming back as a repeat customer than the dollar to Google, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so just looking at one, the ROI and conversion rate on those leads, it drops your cost on the close side because those converted a high ratio. So you either need, you have more effective sales reps and CSRs, but also that dollar spent goes back to your customer. So they're, they're excited you're investing in your customer.

[B]

Yeah, I'm pretty into that.

[A]

And your employee, I think it's huge on the employee side too.

[B]

I mean service titan, like just even drawing from tech, but like so much of it was referral driven. Yeah, like I, the referral bonuses were huge in the, in the beginning or like I think they give trucks away or something now. But yeah, it's a lot. It makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Our buddies are the ones that, that when those trucks is, I mean it's an awesome program. We're all big believers in referrals and we know, I know the team at Service Titan who runs that referral program. It's pretty cool. So we're big believers in that. And yeah, taking care of your affiliates, your customers, your and your employees, when your employees feel bought in and they're getting spiffed on those, they're. They're going to keep doing it and they're more likely going to stick around. So yeah, you're, you're solving a retention problem. At the same time, when you get them excited and bought in and they're making money, they're making an extra X amount every month because they drove five new referral leads that converted and you know, drove 65k in business for, for the company. That's pretty powerful.

[B]

Yeah, no, that is, that's pretty cool. What's your biggest. What do you think my biggest win would be if we start doing this?

[A]

Yeah, revenue. I mean. Yeah, tons. For a business like Wilson, it's, it's a huge amount of revenue that comes in the door and it's incremental and, and it's also a byproduct of re engaging those customers. And obviously we can look at how you already do that today, but it's a natural way to re engage your customers. You're asking them for referrals and offering them incentives.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And as a byproduct, they're going to come back and use you as well. So you're not having to rebuy those. It's, it's, and it's, and it's trackable data. Getting your, I think when you have as many trucks as you do getting that rolled out with your employees, that's another really valuable channel.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty cool. What's, what's the biggest warning? Like where would I trip?

[A]

I think not, not following up on the call on the leads, I think, I don't think that's an issue for you though. Most of, most of the big businesses that have operation or using Service Titan, that's not the issue for them. So, so you probably are good on.

[B]

That side because it jumps into like a speed delete or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, speed delete. Whether it's in the refer pro campaign or you know, if you use whatever, whatever we using. We integrate with a lot of different tools. So yeah, I think the other one is we can automate the incentives. If not, you can do like a one touch, one click, like automate that and push. It's not paying out the businesses that. Yeah, the businesses that pay out, those out the fastest, the better. So we can automate that if you're good with it. If not, we can set up a kind of a one touch system so you can at least approve those. But the businesses that are doing that Seeing hundreds of thousands of dollars in the first month and then. And then building on that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they have such a fast turnaround time. I think that's the number one thing is just the better you use the tool, the better it works. And that's probably the number one thing is just making sure you call those leads and follow up and have a good business practice there and then that you incentivize and reward those customers on the back end. Those are the two, two levers we can pull.

[B]

Yeah. Hell yeah. Awesome. It's no secret that my office here in Nashville is almost completely empty. So how do I support my team as well as have great growth metrics? Well, the answer is international contractors with Quick Staffers. So Quick staffers is a premier staffing agency which will place top tier talent in your business, built by the trades for the trades. So if you need a csr, they'll be placed in a CSR that is highly trained in your business that knows service titan and can book calls effectively. Day 1 Call 1 Affordable, reliable and trained in all of the industry best practices. Quick staffers can help you cut that overhead, boost conversions and scale your business fast. So don't waste another lead. Visit quickstaffers.com and transform your business today. Dude, this was awesome. Yeah, I think I, I get it more which was my goal today. Like I get it more for the homeowner B2B. It just makes total sense to me. Yeah, it almost like active. It allows us to do things we were never, never able to do before. Maybe we could have figured it out but like home inspectors and realtors and really being able to like professionalize that. Yeah, like something we liked the idea of was like wine Wednesdays or you know, pick a thing but like invite all filters over, get them onto this pyramid scheme basically and be like, yeah, we'll pay 5, you know, then you go get somebody and we'll pay them 500. I always wanted to launch a pyramid scheme. So this is hopefully my chance. This is it, man. This is it. But yeah, it all be. It always made total sense for that. But, but the customer one was like just knowing my own behavior. Like I would probably be amongst the 17 that would not refer just because I don't know that I've ever thought to do that. Yeah, I guess professionally we do it all the time. But. But personally, I don't know. Usually it's like, I don't know. That guy didn't communicate very well. I don't know if you want to talk to him. Yeah, But I, I think. I think it makes sense just given how many referrals we receive. So I, I think I'm kind of into it. And I like the technician part too, because I think that personalizes the whole. The whole deal.

[A]

Yeah. 100. And I think the hardest thing is anyone who's tried to do this manually before joining Refer Pro, most people don't try to do. Don't do anything. There are. We don't try to do it manually. They're using spreadsheets and they're doing gift cards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If it's hard to do, it doesn't happen. We're too busy in our businesses too much. There's too many high priorities. And so if you leave it to try to let it happen organically, you'll get some of that. But to automate and put a system in place, that's the power of where we're headed with technology. Just let that, let that take care of itself. Put that on, not on the back burner. You need to be active in certain parts of it, but let the automation take over and drive revenue that you otherwise would not be getting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the ROI is off the charts on that. So I think the biggest risk is just saying, oh, we'll just. We'll just let this happen organically or let our technicians ask. They're just not going to do it. That's what we see.

[B]

Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on today. I feel like I got a good education on how referral marketing works.

[A]

Yeah, thanks for having me, John. Great to be here. Fun to chat.

[B]

Awesome.