A Reasonable Solution to the Transgender Athlete Debate

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "A Reasonable Solution to the Transgender Athlete Debate"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre (with guest Katie Barnes)
Episode Date: October 19, 2023

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Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre sits down with journalist and author Katie Barnes to dissect one of the most contentious topics in modern sports and politics: the participation of transgender athletes, particularly trans women, in girls and women's sports. The conversation explores the evolution of the legal, political, and cultural battles, the scientific and philosophical aspects of “fairness” in sports, and ultimately, what a reasonable policy solution could look like.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Personal and Political Roots

• Pablo and Katie open with a personal anecdote about Pablo’s failed attempt to write a Jeremy Lin biography, which segues into how difficult, layered topics require nuance.
• Pablo observes that political discourse on gender is “very stupid”—especially the desire for control over others’ gender identities (02:10–02:32).
  • Quote (Pablo Torre, 02:10): “Gender to be very stupid. Because nobody should want to control what another person's gender is this much, right?”

2. How the ‘Trans Athlete Debate’ Exploded Politically

• Katie traces the origins to the 2016 Obama administration guidance on trans students and sports, quickly thwarted by lawsuits from 23 states (05:39–06:39).
• A messaging and legal strategy shift occurred with the Trump administration, which reframed Title IX’s “sex” language to exclude “gender,” thereby reshaping the playing field for policy and lawsuits (07:15–09:00).
• Media cases like Connecticut’s Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller (2017–2019) triggered conservative backlash and legislative action, fueled by emotionally resonant narratives of “protecting girls’ sports.”
  • Quote (Pablo Torre, 18:58): “Now we have the story of victimization, we have the story of our girls, our daughters … losing out to these con artists who are cheating them out of what is rightfully theirs…”

3. The Strategic Playbook: Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF)

• Conservative legal group ADF, classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, authors model legislation (first HB 500 in Idaho) that spreads rapidly to other states (15:41–17:38).
  • Quote (Katie Barnes, 17:38): “HB500 was not the first bill… but this one was different. ADF has said publicly this is their model legislation. You can see... [other states] are structured similarly.”
• The emotional resonance—stories of “lost scholarships” and “unfairness”—captured public attention better than the reactive, less-organized progressive side.

4. The Vocabulary and Framing War

• The powerful (and deliberate) use of phrases like “biological male” and resistance to pronoun changes is both a linguistic and policy battleground (21:33–23:10).
  • Quote (Katie Barnes, 22:09): “When language is used that is undermining the validity of identity of trans people… it’s done purposefully.”
• Katie emphasizes respect and dignity, urging for discourse that humanizes trans people rather than reducing them to debates about anatomy.

5. Why the Progressive Response Faltered

• There was a significant lag or void in coordinated response (24:35–27:00).
• Sports are a culturally complex, often painful site for queer and trans communities, leading to internal reluctance and lack of expertise or prioritization among advocacy organizations and funders.
  • Healthcare access and sports policy have since become intertwined in state-level legislation.

6. What is ‘Fair’ in Sports?: Unpacking the Science and Myths

• Pablo and Katie explore the multifactorial nature of athletic performance: genetics, skill, resources, training, and yes, puberty/testosterone but not exclusively (27:33–32:31).
  • Key scientific points:
    • Testosterone-driven puberty can confer certain advantages relevant to power/speed/strength disciplines.
    • Not all transgender girls experience testosterone-driven puberty; puberty blockers exist.
    • Testosterone suppression reduces (but does not fully erase) markers like muscle mass and VO2 max.
    • There’s very little longitudinal data on trans athletes due to their small population size and social barriers to research (34:22–36:14).
  • Quote (Katie Barnes, 33:31): “Testosterone suppression does affect muscle mass. It does not reduce muscle mass down to a typical cisgender female level... we don’t have longitudinal data on transgender athletes.”

7. A Reasonable Policy Solution

• Katie’s Practical Proposal:
  • Allow open participation for K–12 (including school and club), intramural, and community sports—prioritizing inclusion, enjoyment, and community.
  • Impose eligibility restrictions (such as required period of testosterone suppression) only at the point where stakes are significant: scholarships, Division I/II NCAA, professional, Olympic levels (36:56–41:06).
  • Morally and philosophically opposes requiring medical intervention for minors to participate in school sports.
  • Acknowledges a moral “messiness” in elite youth feeder programs, but emphasizes the need for nuance.
    • Quote (Katie Barnes, 39:57): “For me, it is [the cutoff]. So what that means then in practice is K through 12, you should be able to participate … wherever feels good for you.”
• Decries the reflex to police children’s bodies or impose grievance-based challenges to girls’ eligibility, which in effect polices gender non-conformity of all types (45:22–46:02).

8. Why This Debate is So Contentious

• The real stakes for the overwhelming majority are about belonging, not about scholarships or Olympic medals (47:11–47:34).
  • Quote (Katie Barnes, 47:34): “The overwhelming majority of people affected by this legislation are kids who just want to play sports and hang out with their friends.”
• Pablo and Katie urge for an honest, complete, and informed conversation that avoids reductionist, binary thinking.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Katie Barnes (22:09): “When language is used that is undermining the validity of identity of trans people, such as the use of biological male, it’s done purposefully… That’s a really dehumanizing conversation.”
• Pablo Torre (18:58): “Now we have the story of victimization, we have the story of our girls, our daughters… being cheated out of what is rightfully theirs.”
• Katie Barnes (39:57): "So what that means then in practice is K through 12, you should be able to participate in school sports wherever feels good for you."
• Pablo Torre (47:11): “If we're talking about the concerns of a democracy, maybe we should actually figure out who the people are that are being affected by the policies we pass… the overwhelming majority... are kids who just want to play sports and hang out with their friends."

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 02:10 – Pablo on the absurdity of policing gender
• 05:39–06:39 – Origins: Obama-era guidance and conservative backlash
• 09:00–11:00 – Title IX and the contested meaning of “sex” vs. “gender”
• 12:16–13:52 – Connecticut track controversy: Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller
• 15:41–17:38 – The spread of ADF model legislation (HB 500)
• 24:35–27:00 – Why progressives failed to provide a strong response
• 27:33–32:31 – What is “fairness”? Science, puberty, and advantage in sports
• 36:56–41:06 – Katie’s proposed solution: Where to draw inclusion vs. restriction lines
• 45:22–46:02 – Dangers of “gender policing” in youth sport
• 47:34 – Reality: Most affected are kids who just want to play with friends

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Tone and Style Highlights

• Candid, skeptical, and journalistically rigorous: Pablo and Katie challenge both sides, aiming above all for accuracy and compassion.
• Wry humor and self-awareness: Both poke fun at their own athletic mediocrity and the way personal sports nostalgia underpins cultural anxiety.
• Persistent emphasis on nuance over binary or ideological answers.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes that the national debate on transgender athlete policy is fraught mainly because of strategic right-wing framing and a lack of nuanced, coordinated response from the left. Katie Barnes’s “reasoned solution” cuts through the noise: regulate only where the competitive and financial stakes truly matter, and otherwise, let kids play. Pablo reflects, “that basic understanding to me is serious progress" (50:09).

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Listen if you want:

• A foundational understanding of where America’s transgender athlete debate came from.
• Clear, good-faith answers to the “fairness” question.
• A pathway for more reasonable, informed policy and discourse.

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Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Katie Barnes]

Serena Williams would beat you in tennis. I think that's fair to say.

[Pablo Torre]

How dare you?

[Katie Barnes]

I know, I'm just, I, I recognize.

[Pablo Torre]

It'S a very controversial statement for male how dare you? Right after this ad.

[DraftKings Network Announcer]

You'Re listening to DraftKings Network.

[Pablo Torre]

I have never written a book. I should confess that at one point I bought like book writing software, downloaded it to my computer because I wanted to do a book about Jeremy Lynn.

[Katie Barnes]

I was about ready to say that I feel like you have a linsanity book in you.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, unfortunately, it's the most predictable thing and also the most accurate thing is that I have a lot more to say about linsanity.

[Katie Barnes]

Well, I might need you to do a linsanity book.

[Pablo Torre]

I, I, I remember begging, I mean, truly begging Jeremy and being like, hey, man, will you authorize this biography I want to do of you? This was literally March 2012, and I have never had a more awkward phone call with someone I still consider a friend because he effectively, and I didn't want to misquote him here, but I will quote the one word I remember, which is no. And I was like, I deserve that. Oh, man, I deserve that.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, I didn't really have the same level of difficulty.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Somehow you doing the treatise on transgender athletes was less stressful. Okay, so real quick, I just want to start by pointing out that I find our country's political messaging war around.

[Pablo Torre]

Gender to be very stupid. Because nobody should want to control what.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Another person's gender is this much, right? I mean, whether you're male, female, trans man, trans, female, intersex, non, binary, whatever, Wherever you are, however you self, identify, however you express yourself, it's just as.

[Pablo Torre]

Good a textbook definition of personal freedom.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

As you will find in this country.

[Pablo Torre]

Which loves freedom, allegedly.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

And you may recall that last month.

[Pablo Torre]

In episode seven of Pablo Torre Finds.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Out, we put into perspective the vanishingly small number of trans female athletes who are invading women's sports.

[Pablo Torre]

Supposedly you met Ember Zelch, this incredibly charismatic but deeply mediocre backup softball catcher.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Who happened to be the one and only trans girl playing varsity sports in the entire state of Ohio. This was back when Ohio first tried its wave of anti trans bills. Ember still has never hit a home run.

[Pablo Torre]

That is my update for you, but watch that episode. I think it's useful. Today, though, I wanted to get to.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

A more outwardly tricky question, an offshoot.

[Pablo Torre]

Of that episode, because our treatment of.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Ember's story did not address this, and I think it's useful. How are we supposed to deal with the fact that some trans women, like Lia Thomas, the pen swimmer, actually are elite athletes, actually are really good at sports, actually are winners?

[Pablo Torre]

Is there a reasonable policy that could.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Control who gets to play which sports?

[Pablo Torre]

And so today, I promise that we.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Will build to one solution with Katie Barnes, the author of the excellent new book Fair Play, How Sports Shape the Gender Debates. But first, I really needed to understand.

[Pablo Torre]

How the left got here, how they.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Wound up losing so badly, and why.

[Pablo Torre]

It'S failing to persuade America in a very stupid political messaging war about our most basic freedoms. You are somebody who is, and I want to say this very clearly, you are a journalist and not an activist.

[Katie Barnes]

That is correct.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

And you are not entirely predictable, which.

[Pablo Torre]

Is part of why, beyond you being my friend in real life and someone who got to read your book early on, this is just me humble bragging. I got to read Katie's book before it came out. But it's something that struck me because.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Holy, there is stuff in here that does not fall within the realm of.

[Pablo Torre]

Orthodoxy of what the left, capital T, capital L, would want you, dear reader.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

To think and feel about this subject.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, I think that's fair, and I eschew that in many respects, mostly because I'm a journalist and not an activist.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

The place I want to start is.

[Pablo Torre]

Though, with the messaging war around all of this. The people who are. Yeah.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Conservative on this issue and are trying.

[Pablo Torre]

To pass bills that ban trans athletes, they are so much better at playing the political game than the other side of the aisle is. And your book deals with this.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

What.

[Pablo Torre]

What is your sense of how. How big that disparity is when it comes to the strategy around how to enact laws around this topic?

[Katie Barnes]

I think for a lot of folks, the issue of transgender athletes emerged recently. Seems like it came out of nowhere. And all of a sudden, it was this huge, big deal. Whether that was through Leah Thomas swimming at the University of Pennsylvania and winning a national championship in 2022, or the ongoing discussion about legislation that has passed across the country now in 23 states, it seems like, oh, this is a thing that came out of nowhere for me. What's happening? But before then, there was this dust up over a piece of paper. It's a dear colleague letter from the Obama administration in 2016, where they just said, for schools, here's guidance on how you're going to support transgender athletes and school students. And that was published in May of 2016. It was signed by representatives from both the Department of Justice and the Department of Education. It never went into effect because 23 states sued.

[Newsmax Prime Host]

We welcome you both here to Newsmax Prime. We heard from Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick a bit earlier, but it's worth a second listen to some of his other comments this morning on the prospect of of the Obama administration insisting that bathrooms be made and locker rooms be made available to transgenders. Let's look and listen.

[Dan Patrick]

The battle line has been drawn in a way that the President does not know the line he crossed. This time when you take on mom and dad in their homes, when the president threatens their children, he has made a huge mistake.

[Katie Barnes]

There was already this like sort of tit, a tat back and forth between the Obama administration and states. But then when the Trump administration took over, they rescinded that guidance almost immediately and in fact used Title IX to specifically force at least one school, Franklin Pierce University, to change their transgender athlete policy. In a late night decision, the White House reversed guidelines issued under President Obama. And it was really the first time that we've seen Title IX like really weaponized in that way.

[Pablo Torre]

For the very, very basic sake of definitions here, like what is Title 9?

[Katie Barnes]

I got this. Title 9 is 37 words of legislation passed in 1972 that is an education access piece of policy and law that says every student is protected from sex based discrimination in their schools, including in programs and activities. The activities bit is important because that is what created girl sports. So you see litigation from arguing on both sides of Title 9, saying that Title IX is the reason why transgender girls should not be able to participate in girls sports. And then you also have people who are in favor of inclusion arguing that Title IX is the reason why transgender girls should be able to compete in girl sports.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

And just to be clear, this apparent contradiction is all possible because of one specific word in the writing of Title 9.

[Pablo Torre]

9 Sex.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Title 9 says that no person in the United States shall on the basis of sex be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.

[Pablo Torre]

What Title IX does not say there.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

You may notice, is the word gender.

[Pablo Torre]

Let alone transgender, which may be completely unsurprising given that Title IX passed more than 50 years ago before we broadly distinguished a person's gender, how they self identify again from their sex, meaning their physiology.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

But what the Trump administration did in contradiction of the Obama White House was very strategically argue that the word sex does not protect gender from discrimination at all.

[Katie Barnes]

So the question of what does sex based discrimination mean and who is protected under the law, and what did they mean in 1972, and what does the equal protection clause of our Constitution mean? There are all of these core questions that are about the validity of identity and how the law is going to be applied in our schools for all students. And so to go back to your original question about kind of how we got here and how the right was able to sort of outmaneuver the broader progressive movement and the equality movement, more specifically, when it comes to LGBTQ equality, a big part of it is that the issue emerged from the right. And what makes it so challenging to talk about and why it's made it challenging from a messaging perspective is that if somebody is using language like biological male to describe a transgender girl, that brings up an image that is not reflective of who transgender girls are, especially when we're talking about school sports. And what I mean by that is you can see in political ads, and especially in Kentucky, these ads were running in the midterms in 2018, and then also in 2020, I believe, in particular, you see images of cisgender boys running alongside cisgender girls.

[DraftKings Network Announcer]

All female athletes want is a fair shot in competition, at a scholarship, at a title, at victory. What if that shot was taken away by a competitor who claims they're a girl but was born a boy? Andy Beshear supports legislation that would destroy girls sports.

[Katie Barnes]

And that's not who Andrea Yearwood is. That's not who Leah Thomas is. That's not who Juniper Eastwood is. It's not who Amber Zelch is. And it complicates having this discussion because we're not all talking about the same thing.

[Pablo Torre]

I am conjuring up scientific authority, objective reality, in contrast to your soft and mushy cisgender stuff, which is not, as you know, it's not as intuitive to the average independent voter, let's say.

[Katie Barnes]

Right. And the reason I bring that up is because specifically, I'm just going to just skip forward a few years. Is at the. We're talking about Andrea Yearwood as this is happening. Andrea was a freshman, 2017. She continues to run in 2018. Is joined by Terry Miller, who is also a transgender girl in the state of Connecticut who is running. And the two of them win a lot of races, and they win a lot of championships over the course of their high school careers.

[Dan Patrick]

Two high school track stars who took first and second place at the Connecticut state championships now finding themselves at the center of a controversy.

[Fox News Reporter]

Both young women are transgender and competed.

[DraftKings Network Announcer]

On the girls team. That's not sitting well with some parents.

[Fox News Reporter]

And student athletes, though, they're, they've started a petition to change a rule.

[Katie Barnes]

It's something that's getting a lot of coverage, especially beginning in the spring of 2018 and the winter of 2019, when Andrea Yearwood and Terry Miller go 1, 2 in the 100 meter race in the outdoor championships in 2018 and in the 55 meter race in the indoor championships in 2019. Just garners a lot of attention, primarily in more conservative media outlets. You see athletes that they beat start appearing on Fox News with more frequency.

[Fox News Reporter]

Connecticut is one of many states that in the name of inclusiveness, allow biological males to compete in women's sports leagues. But is it detrimental to female athletes? You probably know what I think about this, having been a female athlete, especially in high school. Now, that's what three high school track and field stars argue in a new lawsuit to overturn the state athletic conference's transgender policy. According to their complaint, this reality is discrimination against girls that directly violates the requirements of Title ix because schools are permitting males to compete as girls and women, Girls and women are losing competitive opportunities to American girls, those born with XX chromosomes. The message is give up, you can't win. Joining me now exclusively. I'm so happy to see them all. It's like a Connecticut reunion here, the high school track and field stars behind this lawsuit.

[Katie Barnes]

And it becomes a topic that folks who share those political perspectives begin to really focus on. Barbara Ehart is one of them, who's a state representative in Idaho. And so she wants to write a bill and she reaches out to organizations that she describes as pro family groups, direct quote, to help her write that legislation. They don't have sample legislation on this topic. This isn't something that there's a lot of legislative energy around at this time. And you can also see that because there aren't bills really on this topic in this way at that time.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Katie Barnes]

Eventually the Alliance Defending Freedom reaches back out to Barbara E. Hart and says, oh, hey, we have some thoughts on this bill. What do you think? She says, I like what you have here. I'm going to use it. And she introduces HB 500 in the state of Idaho. Literally the day after the Alliance Defending Freedom announces their lawsuit that they filed in Connecticut on behalf of, at that time, three named cisgender girl plaintiffs suing the state high school association based on their trans inclusive policy.

[Barbara Ehart]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, friends, I bring you forward this House Bill 500 whose intent is simple. Its intent is to continue to protect girls and women in sports and to provide those opportunities that we have had for almost the last 50 years. Every girl deserves a chance to pursue her dreams and excel in athletic opportunities. And to force biological girls and women to compete against biological boys and men will only leave us spectators in our own sport.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just got to point out here again, Alliance Defending Freedom. What a name.

[Katie Barnes]

It is quite a name.

[Pablo Torre]

And so what is their background as an organization?

[Katie Barnes]

They're conservative legal conglomerate, a conservative perspective on a number of issues.

[Pablo Torre]

And I just want to pop in.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Here to say that there is nothing wrong with that basic idea.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Welcome to American politics. But I also do need to point out that the Alliance Defending Freedom is also one of the most hyper organized and strategic legal interest groups in the United States. Since 2016, actually, the Southern Poverty Law center has classified Alliance Defending Freedom as a hate group because it, quote, has supported the idea that being LGBTQ should be a crime in the US and abroad and, and believe that it is okay to put LGBTQ people in prison for engaging in consensual sex.

[Pablo Torre]

End quote. Again, welcome to American politics.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Which I also say because former Vice.

[Pablo Torre]

President Mike Pence is an ally of the alliance, as is Senator Josh Hawley.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

And former Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett, allegedly. In fact, in its 30 years of existence, Alliance Defending Freedom has argued more than a dozen cases in front of the Supreme Court. As one of their many, many ads.

[Pablo Torre]

Points out, this is why Alliance Defending Freedom exists.

[DraftKings Network Announcer]

The Arizona Supreme Court ruling in favor of a pair of Christian artists.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

A Finland court dismissed all charges of hate speech.

[Fox News Reporter]

The Supreme Court sides with a former.

[DraftKings Network Announcer]

Student of Georgia Gwinnett College. Nevada church is scoring a major victory in court.

[Dan Patrick]

Louisville wedding photographer has won her federal law.

[DraftKings Network Announcer]

We must protect Title 9 and women's sports for the next generation.

[Pablo Torre]

And it is that last part.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

By the way, their strategic messaging around saving Title 9 from biological males that reshaped our national conversation and our national legislation around trans people in sports, starting with the aforementioned HB 500 House Bill 500 in Idaho.

[Katie Barnes]

There's a very clear. When you look at the bills that have been filed, there's a very clear before HB500 and after HB500. HB500 was not the first bill filed in state legislatures that looked to restrict eligibility for transgender athletes or look to affect eligibility for transgender athletes or affect the ability for high school associations to set their own policy on that topic. But this one was different. ADF has said publicly that this is their model legislation. You can see if you look at, you know, Alabama's version, Tennessee's Mississippi, West Virginia. They are structured similarly, they look the same, the language is very similar. Folks who are in more conservative political spaces were beginning to be more interested in transgender athletes, specifically transgender girls. And so you can see the emergence of this issue over the course of really 2017, until HB 500 is filed within folks who have more conservative political perspectives at various touch points. And how that was not reflected in terms of coverage from more left leaning outlets or interest from Democrats in terms of matching the Republicans emotional investment in this topic.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that's it. But, but that with that part, right? The emotional investment, what they realized, their core insight now to, to, to just say this even more straightforward was there is emotional resonance, there is political power in the idea of now we have the story of victimization, we have the story of our girls, our daughters, the biological girls as they have framed it, right. Deliberately losing out to these con artists who are cheating them out of what is rightfully theirs, their experience, their scholarships, their lives. And that their insight, which was a winning one, is people are going to want to hear us out on that and we can win over that undecided.

[Katie Barnes]

Well, I think in general, sports is emotional, and we view sports through our own experiences, whether that is from being a spectator or being, you know, somebody who had a very, you know, typical varsity point guard career.

[Pablo Torre]

I love how this topic inevitably goes to you, humble bragging about your high.

[Katie Barnes]

School basketball career, my incredibly mediocre high school basketball career. But, you know, a lot of people had mediocre high school football careers, basketball careers, like nobody. By nobody, I mean very few, very small percentage of us go on to have meaningful collegiate, professional, Olympic careers. That describes such a small amount of the athletic experience. And yet we love sports. We have careers, you and I, because of how much you and I love sports, how much people love sports and care about sports. And so when the topic is framed as a number of these pieces of legislation do, which they are literally titled, Save Women's sports, right, it implies that women's sports are under threat, that there is the possibility of them going away, and that there is something inherently wrong with transgender athletes participating in, you know, girls and women's sports in particular. Although it is worth noting that, you know, some of the states have also restricted the ability for transgender boys to participate in boy sports. And so it's not always just about transgender girls. And also, you know, as somebody who is non binary, I'm just like, we're not even talking about non binary athletes.

[Pablo Torre]

We can't even get out of here. No, we don't have time for you.

[Katie Barnes]

There's just so much happening. But we're so fixated culturally on one particular part of this experience.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

And by the way, this speaks to.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, the vocabulary war, right? I think about this all of the time. There's a funny thing happening where people get mad at a request for they. Them pronouns, right?

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

That is like, such a winning, Again, a broadly winning political argument, this pronoun bull.

[Pablo Torre]

Get that out of here.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

But it's like, at the same time, I thought you guys wanted, like, us to not be the same as your girls. Like, we're literally saying, can you call us a different pronoun? And you're like, no, get the out of here.

[Pablo Torre]

It's like, but wait a minute.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Why didn't. What happened to the.

[Katie Barnes]

But also culturally, it's about. For me as a writer, and I do talk about this, it's about respect, right? Do we respect people even if we don't fully understand them? Are we willing to engage in a meaningful dialogue to better understand each other and where we're coming from and the experiences that we all have, or are we not? So when language is used that is undermining the validity of identity of trans people, such as the use of biological mail, it's done purposefully. If I said, well, I, Katie Barnes, don't believe that the gender binary is particularly useful. And so therefore, everyone that I come in contact with will be they, them. Because that's what I think is right. That's me imposing a particular worldview onto everyone else that I come into contact with. And oftentimes when we're talking about, you know, whether or not gender identity is real or whether or not transgender people are real, like, that is where a lot of the energy is focused on. And when we're reducing trans people to these really tough legislative experiences or questions about biological advantage or just biology generally, and what's going on in your birth certificate and what's going on underneath your clothes. That's a really dehumanizing conversation and strips trans people of, you know, respect and dignity that we afford to most cisgender people. And I think it's important to say that as a part of this conversation. But I think it is something that is often lost in a discussion about how we got here and what appropriate policy should be. Because, you know, for me, as a journalist, and like, what I like, honestly, what I hope most everyone takes away from fair play, is that transgender people are people who have experiences and hopes and Dreams and. And, yes, some of them play sports. And that's a part of, you know, those hopes and dreams and experiences as well.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to ask, before we get to the specific policy which you just provided, a great segue towards. What should the other side of the aisle have done in anticipation or in just reaction to how this war has been waged politically?

[Katie Barnes]

From my reporting, it's hard for me to say what should have been done. What my reporting does show is what did not happen, which was there was not necessarily a response. 2019 was a pretty clear year in terms of the Alliance Fighting Freedom, filing that Title IX complaint, and there wasn't a great response. And folks who are in that movement said that it did not happen in 2020. It did not happen in 2021, even as there was an explosion of legislation on this issue. And that's something, again, that I think folks, you know, again, they want to talk about. Leah Thomas. There were nine states that had already passed into law some version of what we saw with HB500 by the time Lia Thomas dove into a pool for her senior year of swimming. And then, of course, that doubled the following year to 18. And now we're up to 2023. And there are, you know, two states, Ohio and Wisconsin, that could bring that to 25. And then also, you know, we talk about sports being very emotional. One of the things that, you know, is talked about to me from a number of folks is that within, like, queer and trans movements for equality, you know, sports is not exactly our forte in terms of, you know, the community's expertise. That's not to say there isn't a long history. Queer and trans athletes.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no. But I get it.

[Katie Barnes]

But it's a sight of pain for a lot of people. And one of the sources, you know, in the book who is a lesbian, you know, recalled going to her board and saying, we want to do some more sports work. And they're like. And the board was primarily gay men. They're like, well, of course you do. You're a lesbian. And we hated gym class. And so there wasn't this recognition of what was about to happen. And. And then, as it was happening, the sports legislation then was also beginning to be paired with legislation that affected access to healthcare for transgender youth. And while we've had all this discussion about how so few transgender youth are playing sports, well, all transgender youth need access to healthcare in some way, shape or form. Marshaling a response to then, what has become a true legislative crisis for trans people specifically was tremendously Difficult, especially when you don't have the funders who fund this work lining up and writing blank checks. That was not happening.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

And that's where I have sympathy for the movement and all of its failings.

[Pablo Torre]

As it watched this lead on the scoreboard politically get run up by the right.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Because the question of, like, well, what do we do here? What is our policy proposal for who gets to play sports at what levels.

[Pablo Torre]

And so forth and so on. That's why I now bring you the topic that you're exhausted by, but is the one that I have to imagine everybody is like actually demanding, like, we need an answer here.

[Katie Barnes]

Yes. The one question I get asked probably the most is, is it fair? And what is fair?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. And so is it fair and what is fair? First off, the science of advantage.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

We should not be numb to the.

[Pablo Torre]

Idea of competitive advantage.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Following human physiology, following biology.

[Pablo Torre]

And so practically, this means hormones, this means testosterone.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

So how do you explain this stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

For people who, who again, don't have the sophistication or the nuance or maybe the inclination?

[Katie Barnes]

The first thing is sketching out what we know.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Katie Barnes]

We know that there are physiological and metabolic benefits conferred upon those who go through testosterone driven puberty because there is a general performance gap, especially in power, speed and strength based sports, between elite men and elite women.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Katie Barnes]

Meaning that the fastest woman in the world is not nearly as fast as the fastest man in the world. And also that the fastest woman in the world can be beaten by relatively less faster men. We know this times don't lie.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

However, we also know that not all trans people will go through testosterone driven puberty.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

Meaning specifically transgender girls. There are those who have access to gender affirming care and choose to begin their transition before puberty and through access to puberty blockers and then cross hormone therapy, do not go through testosterone driven puberty. Prior to testosterone driven puberty, there are not significant differences between boys and girls and also just anyone of any gender who is participating in sports, even though we sex separate very young. So that's another thing that we do is we sex separate very young. And when we talk about testosterone driven puberty, we often culturally boil that down to boys being better athletes, boys being better at sports. That's the cultural messaging. So what ends up happening is that culturally we talk about our sports and from the perspective of any person who's assigned male at birth has a better athlete than any person assigned female at birth, in all circumstances, at all times.

[Pablo Torre]

From the beginning of their life on this planet.

[Katie Barnes]

Correct. And we Also know that that's not true.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

Like, Serena Williams would beat you in tennis. I think that's fair to say.

[Pablo Torre]

How dare you?

[Katie Barnes]

I know. I'm just.

[Pablo Torre]

I. I recognize it's a very controversial outfit for male. How dare you?

[Katie Barnes]

Right. But, like, you know, Maya Moore would also beat you in basketball. It's true. And that's fine. It's okay. She would also beat me.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is tough to come to.

[Katie Barnes]

Terms with, I'm sure. But I think one of the things that gets lost in that discussion is that sports are also fundamentally skills.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

So this is an important part.

[Katie Barnes]

It's a very important part.

[Pablo Torre]

Skill intangible, not just sheer physical talent does happen to matter.

[Katie Barnes]

Right. And especially when we're talking about younger athletes.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

Like, I don't know. I just. I grew up in the middle of nowhere in Indiana, and when you played against somebody who was going D1, you knew, like, you knew there's that raw athletic talent. There's also the development of a skill.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

And we allow for the investment in that skill development.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

So what I mean by that is it's perfectly fine for, you know, so and so to have a quarterback coach Beginning at age 9, if your family can afford it. And that is also a type of advantage.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, Right.

[Katie Barnes]

But we accept that advantage as fair. So each athlete is unique in that they bring their own set of physiological advantages and disadvantages and also the external advantages and disadvantages in terms of, when did you start playing? How much money has your family been able to invest? What kind of school do you go to? Do you go to a school that has money and resources? Do you go to a school that has the kind of sport that you want to participate in?

[Pablo Torre]

It does remind me that it would be a very funny policy proposal to ban, like, all of the NBA players whose parents are NBA players.

[Katie Barnes]

Right. And so some of that is genetic.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

In terms of if your parent. If your parents played competitive professional basketball, whether we're talking about, you know, maybe they played overseas, maybe your dad actually did play in the NBA, maybe your mom played in the wnba.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

So it would stand to reason that you're probably taller than average, which is an important indicator of whether or not you will be successful in the NBA.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

And also you have access to different resources to develop that natural athletic talent.

[Pablo Torre]

No doubt.

[Katie Barnes]

So that's all that bucket.

[Pablo Torre]

For the record, there is not a movement to ban the children of professional athletes from professional sports.

[Katie Barnes]

No, there's not. So then the question becomes, okay, well, if you are someone who experiences driven puberty. And you are a transgender girl or woman, and you want to participate in girls and women's sports. And we know that there are physiological metabolic advantages conferred upon those who go through testosterone driven puberty. How successful is testosterone suppression? Yes, and that is an open question that's being studied.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

And so what we know is that testosterone suppression does affect muscle mass. It does not reduce muscle mass down to a typical cisgender female level. We know that there are some metabolic indicators that are affected, but again, not all. Not down to what we would expect to see in a typical cisgender woman. But what we also know is they are not the same physiologically as what we would expect to see in cisgender men.

[Pablo Torre]

It's not a magic command Z undo button.

[Katie Barnes]

No, it doesn't undo it in terms of testosterone driven puberty. You know, if you are somebody who is tall, it doesn't necessarily shrink you down to the height you might have been had you not gone through testosterone driven puberty. But I thought it was interesting in one of my interviews, interviews with Leah Thomas, she said she did shrink an inch and that her feet shrank.

[Interjecting Commentator]

But.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

So this speaks to, though, part of.

[Pablo Torre]

The function of a population that is tiny and is constantly under legal attack is that there just aren't a lot of studies. It feels like, no, there's not a.

[Katie Barnes]

Lot of data specifically around transgender athletes. So a lot of what we are extrapolating in terms of the differences of sexes in athletic performance is from studies of elite cisgender men and cisgender women. And then we do have some studies that look at the effects of testosterone suppression on certain athletic outputs. So, for example, there's a study that looks at military members of the military in various stages of transition, both transgender women and transgender men, and how various cross hormone therapy. And in the case of transgender women, testosterone suppression affects their push ups, sit ups, and mile time. And for transgender women, their push ups, you know, they come down to a level that's reflected in cisgender women. Same thing with the sit ups. The mile time does not. But the study was kind of cut short. And so with longer time on suppression, that may have happened. It also may not have happened. There's a study out of Brazil that looks at testosterone suppression with some folks having suppressor testosterone up to like 14 years, which is actually one of the longest times that we have from a data set perspective on VO2, max grip strength, and a couple of other physiological indicators. And it's mixed, right? Like, in terms of how testosterone suppression affects your VO2 max and your grip strength, and what remains, what does not remain? Like, we don't have longitudinal data on transgender athletes and, you know, starting testosterone suppression at various levels of puberty and how that affects athletic performance.

[Pablo Torre]

But. But look. So I want to. I want to essentially try and do a brief summary then, of the nuance you just laid out, which is to say that there are many drivers of athletic performance. Right. And that goes to skill and size and speed and all that stuff.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Money.

[Pablo Torre]

All that is in this multivariate equation. Let's say that testosterone, that puberty in that way, is not the entire story, but it is a relevant influence upon one's athletic performance. What do we do with that?

[Katie Barnes]

It is my perspective that when it comes to placing restriction on the eligibility for transgender girls and women in the women's category, when we should begin to care about that is when there are real stakes involved. And what I mean by that is scholarships and money. So Division one, Division two, college. There can be restrictions. And it's worth noting that there have been restrictions.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Katie Barnes]

Like, there was a very clear policy that the NCAA was beginning in 2011 that required transgender women to suppress their testosterone for one year before being eligible to compete in the women's category. It is worth noting that for the most famous example of a transgender woman competing on a Division 1 level successfully, Leah Thomas, she suppressed her testosterone for over two years.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

And so it's also worth noting that a transgender woman being able to compete in the women's category and be allowed to win, for some people, that is seen as a failure of policy, that the policy should be designed to make sure it doesn't happen. And so, for me, as I write in Fair Play, when it comes to Division one, Division two, some restriction, okay? Yes, Professional. Some restriction, okay. Same thing with the Olympic level. Those are places where we already have an elevated level of scrutiny for those athletes, whether or not you may believe that that is appropriate. It does exist in terms of testing for doping, in terms of, you know, various eligibility. There's also such a high bar to clear because, again, sports are skills you have to be good enough to be able to compete. And so there are already barriers to entry in that way.

[Pablo Torre]

Barriers, by the way, that have existed for over a decade in the NCAA's cases you referred to that I think it would almost be surprising to learn that if all you learned about this topic came through the political news cycle.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, I think it definitely come like, people think that. That there are just no policies.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Correct. That if you Include that there is.

[Pablo Torre]

No way of creating a policy at all. It's either. It is again quite binary. It's yes or no. And in fact, there have been real world politically successful policies when it comes to how to regulate. Yeah. The elite levels of sports.

[Katie Barnes]

And you know, the Olympics also has had a policy.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

The point being, if you're going to draw a line somewhere in terms of where do we regulate testosterone, where do we make people jump through hoops from a policy perspective to be included to get access to sports, you're saying D1, D2, elite sports, Olympics. That's the cutoff.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah, for me it is. So what that means then in practice is K through 12, you should be able to participate in school sports wherever feels good for you. Club level sports at that age as well.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

Because you can play travel soccer outside of your school system. Similarly, in terms of being able to participate and compete. And in a way that works best for you, when we're looking at club sports at the college level, which is essentially pay to play, same thing, intramural level sports, you should be able to play wherever it is that you want to play. Adult recreational, community sports. Play where you want. And we should be allowed to participate in sports in a way that is communal and fun and at those levels, even though. Yes, I understand that at high school, it does get a little bit messier for me. Like when I say messy, I mean in terms of, you know, I don't want to cheapen anybody's experience in terms of saying your championship doesn't matter. Of course it matters. Like, I played for a sectional championship. I still think about it. I'm still bitter about the loss. Like it was a definition.

[Pablo Torre]

There's the humble brag. I was waiting for it.

[Katie Barnes]

Defining moment in my high school career.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Yes. And you mean that. It's in the book. I mean all.

[Katie Barnes]

I mean it seriously.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

This is real to you?

[Katie Barnes]

Yes. As it is to so many people who played for a state championship on their football team or who loved, you know, running track with their friends or who won track championships or who swam in a final of what the. Maybe they got on the podium. Like, I understand that for so many athletes, no matter when that experience started or finished, the competitive part of you, like, really loved that experience.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Probably.

[Katie Barnes]

Hopefully. I hope it was a good one and that was important and so not cheapening that at all. And also, high school athletes are minors. And for me, morally and philosophically, I cannot get to a place where we are requiring medical intervention for children to compete in school Sports. I think perhaps where policy is actually messiest is in those club sports that are feeders. And I'm not saying that I personally am in favor of restriction for those club feeder programs, but I understand that that can be a different kind of conversation.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Yeah.

[Katie Barnes]

And we should allow for that, too.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, if the standard you're setting, I mean, this is what we're calling for, right. Is. And this is very difficult, right, to set a policy that is consistent across all of these divisions and groupings. But what you're saying is, if the standard is stakes and money, what do.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

You do with the pre professionals, with.

[Pablo Torre]

Those club feeder kids, with the ones who are prospects? I mean, I think of Bryce Harper, you know, at age 16, one of the great baseball prospects you've ever seen. Like, and again, this speaks to the scouting of elite athletes happening ever sooner. And this can feel, I understand, dystopian, but it's also something that does entail those stakes that you're describing.

[Katie Barnes]

Yeah. But I also think that how our youth sporting apparatus has become so focused on money and scouting of talent, to me, that is a separate issue.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

Like, that's not a transgender athlete issue. That is a question of who are our sports for what is the experience of sports? Like, what should that experience for youth be?

[Pablo Torre]

Should we opt into the dystopia?

[Katie Barnes]

Right. Like, you know, there's a lot of discussion, there's really great writing and wonderful studies, you know, done around the professionalization of childhood.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Katie Barnes]

Like, and that is a whole separate thing, you know, transgender athletes and their desire to play with their friends, which at school level is what we're talking.

[Pablo Torre]

About for pretty much everybody, except for that minority we're currently wringing our hands about.

[Katie Barnes]

Right. Like, that is the focus, Right. And should they be denied that because of a construction around Juana man, that is our own making. And also the apparatus around youth sports that is ever focused on capitalism, that again, is of our own making, that.

[Pablo Torre]

Sells the dream that everyone's kid is a future pro.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Katie Barnes]

And I think for me, right, when I look at the landscape and I say, here are where I see those stakes, it disrupts that a little bit. It's asking us to be honest.

[Pablo Torre]

It's pretty radical.

[Katie Barnes]

It's saying, like, not every kid is going to be an Olympian.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Truly, what you're saying is our conception.

[Pablo Torre]

Of youth sports and is the function of a delusion. Everybody might be LeBron James.

[Katie Barnes]

I think for me, it is more about having a more complete conversation and asking us to have more nuance, which is really hard. But the reality is that this topic requires us to have nuance. It requires us to be thoughtful in how we are drawing these lines.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Katie Barnes]

Because when we draw these lines, when we place these boundaries, whatever they are, then we have to police the boundary. And so what does that look like? Because from a. Like, when it comes to policing, who is eligible for girl sports? And it's worth noting that every single piece of this legislation that has passed into law has a mechanism for challenging a student's gender. And so if you're challenging, if you're able to file a grievance and challenge another student's gender, like, that opens us up to a lot of questions. At what point do you challenge? What spurs a challenge? What is the suspicion?

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Katie Barnes]

Do you have a suspicion? Anytime your child loses is a suspicion. A girl with short hair, a girl with big muscles, a girl who's tall. And who does that affect? Because that's going to affect cisgender girls. It's going to affect anyone who subverts gender or, you know, for me, I just raised the question of, are we okay with that? Is that a place where we want to be when we're talking about young people playing sports? And I understand that a lot of people would rather focus on the Olympians playing sports. You want to have a conversation about, you know, should we have a transgender woman competing in Olympic weightlifting? Want to focus on an athlete like Leah Thomas? We want to have those conversations. But the legislation that is now law in almost half of the states of our country makes no such distinction and, in fact, does the opposite by being as broad as humanly possible. So then we have to talk about kids and the science around youth. And all I'm saying is let's just have a more complete conversation and let's all be more informed. So when we're having this discussion, we can actually have it about the same things.

[Pablo Torre]

If we're talking about, I don't know, the concerns of a democracy, maybe we should actually figure out who the people are that are being affected by the policies we pass, and in this case, the overwhelming majority of the people affected are kids who just want to play sports and hang out with their friends.

[Katie Barnes]

Well, and I think the reason that the overwhelming majority of people who are affected by this legislation are kids who want to play sports with their friends is because that is the overwhelming experience of all of us who play sports. Right, is that 96% of us don't play college sports. And of that 4%, an even smaller percentage are playing Division 1. And of that percentage, an even smaller percentage are going on to play professional sports or to be Olympians. We need to hear each other and have the courage, I think, to confront some of these questions and to be willing to have a complete conversation, be willing to grapple with nuance. And like, I'm an eternal optimist. That's why I wrote this book, in the hopes that folks would be willing to do that. And it's been my experience that most people are if, you know, we can cut through all of the rhetoric and actually give people information, which is ultimately what I strive to do.

[Pablo Torre]

You're never going to get over this high school basketball thing, are you?

[Katie Barnes]

Oh no, never. We didn't even get to the buzzer beater conversation that I just like love bringing up.

[Pablo Torre]

Katie Barnes, retired point guard thank you for your journalism.

[Katie Barnes]

Oh, thanks for having me, Pablo. Appreciate today.

[Pablo Torre]

What I found out is why the whole conversation around trans athletes is so deliberately broken.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Because one group in particular did a.

[Pablo Torre]

Really good job of breaking it.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

There was a mixture of strategic and well funded and honestly just impressively coordinated messaging and legislation in order to wage a religiously motivated war against not just transgender people, but the idea of gender entirely.

[Pablo Torre]

But the other reason why all of this is so up is because the correct policy around how to regulate hormones.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

Testosterone, and therefore transgender participation across all sports at all levels is so deeply nuanced. You listen to Katie Barnes provide one solution and I don't know yet if.

[Pablo Torre]

I co sign that solution entirely.

[Unidentified Commentator/Analyst]

But I believe that Katie's policy is certainly a reasonable and undeniably thoughtful one. And if we can just agree on.

[Pablo Torre]

That, that basic understanding to me is serious progress. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.