American Fictions: Why Oscar Contender Cord Jefferson (Still) Gives a F*ck

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (Le Batard & Friends)
Episode: American Fictions: Why Oscar Contender Cord Jefferson (Still) Gives a F*ck
Date: December 28, 2023
Featured Guest: Cord Jefferson (Writer/Director of American Fiction)
Host: Pablo Torre

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Overview

This episode features Pablo Torre in conversation with Cord Jefferson, the acclaimed journalist-turned-screenwriter/director whose debut film American Fiction is gaining significant Oscar buzz. They dissect Jefferson’s journey from journalism to filmmaking, the pressures of creative validation, the complexity of American racial narratives in media, and the intersections of ego, competitiveness, and genuine artistry. Throughout, they uphold a candid, humorous, and self-reflective dialogue that explores the real and metaphoric stakes of success in Hollywood and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Private Project to Public Commodity

• Jefferson’s Stress as a First-Time Director:
  • The shift from working on a deeply personal art project to selling it as a commercial product is described as anxiety-inducing and "unnatural."
    • “I am...constantly on edge these days, trying to not screw anything up and trying to make sure that as many people as possible see the film.” (02:07, Cord Jefferson)
• Pablo reveals that the film was initially titled with just an "F"—a search engine nightmare—before becoming American Fiction.

2. The Origins of American Fiction

• Inspired by Personal Experience in Journalism:
  • Jefferson recounts feeling typecast as a journalist asked to write repeatedly about racial tragedies and stereotypes, leading to dissatisfaction and a career pivot.
    • “I don't like that my job is basically just commenting on, like, racial tragedy after racial relief.” (06:17, Cord Jefferson)
• From Gawker to Hollywood:
  • Upon moving to screenwriting, similar pressures emerged: being asked to write Black trauma stories.
    • “Why is this still the most interesting location for these people? ...Why is this what you find most intriguing about black life?” (07:31, Cord Jefferson)
• The film is based on Percival Everett’s book Erasure, which satirizes these very dynamics in publishing.

3. Humor in Serious Satire

• Balancing Comedy with Grave Themes:
  • Jefferson insists that only discussing race in "grave tones...is a disservice" and made the film intentionally funny.
    • “I wanted it to be a fun movie...leave the theater, like, smiling and laughing.” (10:10, Cord Jefferson)
• Pablo calls out the film’s sharp dialogue and the hilarious skewering of “prestige” media tropes.

4. Navigating Validation, Criticism, and Success

• Post-Screening Anxiety:
  • Even among friends and respected critics, Jefferson is hyper-aware of potential judgment.
  • They joke about the “handbook” for responding when a friend’s work is not to your taste:
    • “You made a movie. It's so great. And I'm like, oh, that is the oldest trick in the book. I know that.” (11:35, Cord Jefferson)
• Parsing Compliments and Ego:
  • The desire for respect from peers is juxtaposed with acceptance that not everyone will like what he creates.
    • “Not everybody is going to like the movie...there were going to be people who did not like the film, and that's...who saw themselves in it.” (13:13, Cord Jefferson)
• Fear of Criticism:
  • Jefferson admits to not reading reviews due to the disproportionate sting of negative feedback.
    • “I can’t bring myself to read them because it’s too stressful for me...I will just linger on the bad one for weeks and weeks and weeks.” (27:53, Cord Jefferson)

5. Awards, External Validation & the Sports Analogy

• Comparing Art and Sports:
  • Jefferson envies athletes because victories (and defeats) are clear and objective, whereas art remains subjective.
    • “I envy that so much because art is so subjective.” (21:38, Cord Jefferson)
• The Reality of Awards' Impact:
  • Despite cynicism about awards, he acknowledges their practical consequences for careers and generational wealth ("your price goes up").
    • “If you win an Oscar, your price goes up...You want to build generational wealth the way...all these other people around you build generational wealth.” (26:39, Cord Jefferson)
• Oscars So White & Representation:
  • Awards are simultaneously flawed and significant, particularly for raising visibility and opportunities for Black actors like Jeffrey Wright.

6. Race, Fiction, and Consequences

• Race as a Social Construct with Real Impact:
  • The film (and conversation) pulls apart the paradox: race isn’t biologically “real” but racism and its impacts absolutely are.
    • “On the one hand race is not real and on the other hand racism is real...let's find ways to sort of like have fun with that.” (36:52, Cord Jefferson)
• Who Gets to Decide:
  • The selection of stories (and storytellers) in Hollywood continues to reveal ongoing biases.
    • “People who want to be...seriously engaging with important things...and in the process revealing their unseriousness.” (09:47, Pablo Torre)
• Satire and Inspiration:
  • Jefferson cites Hollywood Shuffle as a spiritual precursor—a film that, through humor, critiques the limited roles offered to Black actors.

7. Directing as a Black Creator

• Jeffrey Wright’s Involvement:
  • Wright’s agreement to star validated the project and enabled a higher-caliber cast and support.
    • “For him to look at me and...his willingness to say, okay, you know what? I'm gonna trust you...that, to me, is walking the walk of actually trying to promote div in the industry.” (44:15, Cord Jefferson)

8. The “Shadow Career” Metaphor

• Turning Pro & Embracing One’s Calling:
  • Pablo closes with the Steven Pressfield “shadow career” metaphor, reflecting on his own journey and Jefferson’s leap from journalism to filmmaking.
    • “When we're terrified of embracing our true calling, we'll pursue a shadow calling instead...that metaphor will point you toward your true call.” (48:14-48:41, Pablo Torre quoting Pressfield)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Cord on becoming a salesman:
  “I'm just not a confident salesman. I...always been bad at it. Even going back to selling candy bars for AYSO Soccer.” (02:07)

• The absurdity of typecasting Black creators:
  “People keep telling him that his work isn’t black enough...We want stories of tragedy in the inner city or slavery...” (07:57, about American Fiction)

• Pablo on the creative ego:
  “This is like wiretapping the inside of the New York Times.” (14:37, about post-screening nervousness with critics Wesley Morris and Jon Caramanica)

• Jefferson on the practical impact of awards:
  “If you win an Oscar, your price goes up...You want to build generational wealth the way...all these other people around you build generational wealth.” (26:39)

• On the tension between critique and creativity:
  “If you start to believe the good ones, then that also opens a window for you to believe the bad ones.” (28:04)

• On the limits of representation in Hollywood:
  “Why is this what you find most intriguing about black life?” (07:31)

• Final, playful jab at Will Smith’s Grammy-winning "Men in Black":
  “Forget Tupac, forget Biggie, forget Jay Z, forget Nas, forget Common...This is the best we had to offer.” (46:52, Cord Jefferson, jokingly)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:11: Cord jokes about Sterling K. Brown’s confidence and physique
• 02:07: The stress of selling a once-personal project
• 06:05: Jefferson’s shift from journalism to film
• 07:57 – 09:34: The story and themes of American Fiction (and its roots in Erasure)
• 10:10: Balancing serious issues with comedy
• 14:37: Jefferson’s nerves around critical friends
• 21:38: Awards, ego, and the sports/art comparison
• 27:53: Jefferson avoids reading reviews
• 36:52: Race as both fiction and social reality
• 44:15: Jeffrey Wright’s career-defining act of trust
• 48:14: Pablo’s reflection on “shadow careers” and personal fulfillment

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Memorable Moments

• Cord’s frankness about never feeling like a “salesman” even when the job requires it
• Their shared anxiety navigating friendships in creative industries (“Thank you for making this.” as the ultimate non-committal praise)
• Pablo’s heartfelt confession of both pride and jealousy for Cord’s breakthrough, amplifying the episode’s emotional candor
• The running joke about Will Smith’s “Men in Black” as absurd Grammy bait compared to 1997’s greatest rap legends
• Detailed analogies connecting creative achievement to athletic triumphs—and the impossibility of quantifying art by the same metrics

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, self-deprecating, honest, often humorous
• Deep, playful analysis of self, art, and the broader power structures shaping success

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For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

Expect a deeply thoughtful and entertaining journey through Cord Jefferson’s creative evolution, the real challenges facing Black creatives in Hollywood, and the personal emotional costs—and rewards—of chasing authenticity, impact, and validation. The conversation is as much about the making of American Fiction as it is about the universal quest for meaning and recognition in a system that so often conflates identity, success, and stereotype.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

So I don't know if you know Cord Jefferson by name yet, but you are about to. I keep on warning people about this. When Cord visited the studio to tape this episode, it was before American Fiction was everywhere. It is now in theaters. By the way, use your God given right as an American during the holiday season to go watch a movie by yourself and apologize for nothing. American Fiction, a great candidate for that. You can also do it with friends, as I did. But you know what? Also just solo. Also great. It's been as prophesied on this show, collecting basically every sort of award, nomination, deservedly. Golden Globe nominations, Critics Choice nominations. There is so much Oscar buzz officially. Even more so now. Independent Spirit awards, Gotham Independent film stuff. It's just all of it. All of it. So that's today's episode. Cord himself is a total delight. So consume this, then consume that. Please enjoy. Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Cord Jefferson]

Man, if I look like Sterling K. Brown with my shirt off, I'd be shirtless right here. I'd be shirtless on this damn podcast.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network. I'm coming off of having just gone to your screening last night.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And you had this big thing in New York and I've never screened something that I've made for that many people. You're kind of a veteran at this now, I assume.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But last night where you have a mix of friends and people I think you respect and people who are friends who are also professional critics.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

What is your stress level as something like that as you premiere your new movie, American Fiction, as a first time screenwriter director simultaneously.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, it's exceedingly high. Exceedingly high. I'm in this weird, I'm in this weird transitive moment right. Where it's where I've taken this art project that I've been working on for three years of my life with my close friends. Friends. And we've been putting all of our resources and hearts and souls into. And, and I'm now in this period where it's turning from this art project into a commodity that I need to sell people. Now that is a very, very. And it has nothing to do with integrity or anything. Like, I, I understand that this is the nature of the business and this is, this is something that, this is part of the job and I'm okay with that. But I'm just not a confident salesman. I, I sort of, I, I've never considered Myself a conf. Always been bad at it. Even going back to, like, selling candy bars for ayso. Soccer, like that. That was never. I. I hated it when I was a kid. And so it's. It seems very unnatural for me to do that. And so I am. So I'm in the. So I'm just constantly on edge these days, trying to not screw anything up and trying to make sure that as many people as possible see the film.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so you should know that Cord Jefferson has not screwed this up yet. Exactly the opposite, actually. But he did come kinda close, because the first time I ever heard about this film, Cord and I were in the bar of the Bowery Hotel. This was in New York, back in, I wanna say, June 2021. And Cord told me that this new movie he was writing and directing now had a title. And that title was. Yeah, just with an F, which was both a reference to an actual plot detail in the script and also, as Kord discovered a problem because no film, not even an Oscar nominee, was ever gonna make the first page of search results when someone googled the words and movie. And so now the movie is called American Fiction. And if you have not yet heard about American Fiction, which is a comedy, a satire, you will very, very soon, I suspect, because in the weeks since that screening I attended, Core Jefferson has become the stock that pretty much everybody in Hollywood wishes they'd bought, especially after American Fiction won the audience award at multiple stage, super prestigious fancy film festivals, and especially now that it's become a legitimate betting favorite for a Best Picture nomination at the actual Oscars. And so clearly in this trajectory, in this story, there is a lot of that real. The sports of this that I'd wanted to find out about with court, ego, competitiveness and trophies and external validation.

[Cord Jefferson]

People whose taste I respect are telling me they really enjoy the film. And I'm trying to revel in that a little bit, but it's just very hard just because there's a constant, you know, there's a constant thumping in the back of my brain saying, like, yeah, but you need to sell this thing. These people. These people might be lying to you. It is just a constant. It's just a constant fear. That's all.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a movie, it's a screenplay that you wrote that is based on a book that is an obscure book, relatively speaking.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But the reason you knew you wanted to make this for people who are not familiar with your personal backstory. How do you. How do you explain that?

[Cord Jefferson]

I worked as a journalist for many Years before. Before I started working in film and television. And toward the end of my career, I was working as a. Working at Gawker, and I was writing a lot about race. And, you know, I started becoming the guy sort of who was. People were like, oh, do you want to write about this racial tragedy? Do you want to write about Mike Brown? Do you want to write about Trayvon Martin? And, you know, Obama was in office, so, you know, there was a lot of racism directed at Obama. And that became sort of my go to thing. And I got to a point when I. When I was like, you know, this is. This doesn't feel good to me anymore. This is not. I don't like that. My job is basically just commenting on, like, racial tragedy after racial relief.

[Pablo Torre]

Picture, like, exactly, exactly. Bring in the. Bring in the left in.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. And so it was like, what do I need? What do I need to do to get away from this? And so I left and I went to film and television, and I was thrilled to go to film and television because I was like, now this is great. I can write all these fictional stories about people, and none of it has to sort of, like, bear any resemblance to reality. And once I got there, I realized people were like, oh, do you want to write about these slaves? Do you want to write a movie about these gang members? Do you want to write a movie about these crack dealers? And it was like, wait a minute, why we now exist. I'm working in an arena where we can write about anything we want about black people. We can put them in any. Any situation that we would like. Why is this still the most interesting location for these people? On a plantation or in the hood selling drugs? Like, why is this what you find most intriguing about black life? And so I read this book, Erasure, by Percival Everett. Highly recommend picking it up, but it's about that. It's about a black novelist who is having difficulty selling his latest book, largely because people keep telling him that his work isn't black enough.

[Pablo Torre]

Mark, your books are good, but they're not popular editors. They want a black book.

[Cord Jefferson]

They have a black book. I'm black, and it's my book.

[Pablo Torre]

You know what I mean?

[Cord Jefferson]

And people are like, yeah, but, you know, it's not the kind of black that we're looking for, by which they mean, you know, we want stories of tragedy in the inner city or slavery or sort of like people burning crosses on family's lawns, that kind of thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Where's our representation?

[Cord Jefferson]

Would you give us the pleasure of.

[Pablo Torre]

Reading an excerpt Yo, Sharonda, girl, you be pregnant again if I is. Ray Ray is gonna be a real father this time around.

[Cord Jefferson]

Thank you. He gets mad and writes a sort of. Writes a book intended to sort of like mock the establishment and what they want from black writers. Deadbeat dads, rappers, crack. You said you wanted black stuff. That's black. Right. And it ends up becoming sort of a massive success.

[Pablo Torre]

And so is this based on your actual life?

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah. You think some bitch ass college boy can come up with that?

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no, I don't.

[Cord Jefferson]

And so these, these are issues that I'd been talking about forever with my friends of color and not even like just black people. Why is every quote unquote prestige movie about these issues? Why is it always sort of like from this perspective, like, these people's lives are miserable and we want to touch on how miserable they are.

[Pablo Torre]

The word prestige. I want to be clear. Two things I want to be clear about as, as I interrupt you here. Number one, this movie is funny.

[Cord Jefferson]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, I'm cackling as I remember the skewering of Prestige. That's the second thing I just want to, I want to hone in on.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that there's a specific demographic here, people who want to be, I guess, in their mind, seriously engaging with. With important things.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And in the process of revealing their unseriousness.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

And your voice as, as a dialogue writer is so sharp, man.

[Cord Jefferson]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

And it makes you laugh.

[Cord Jefferson]

Thing that I set out to do when I made this movie is, is that I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be a fun movie. I didn't want this movie to come in. And despite the fact that, like, these are serious issues. Right. Race is a serious issue and it sometimes has fatal consequences. That is, that is the reality of the world. But to only talk about these things in sort of like grave tones is, Is a disservice to. It's a disservice to the human beings that are going through them. I wanted to leave people to leave the theater, like, smiling and laughing. That, that, that to me was one of the. You know, one of the exciting things about the screening last night was that, you know, we left the theater and we went to the bar afterward for the party and just everybody was just seemingly having a good time and laughing.

[Pablo Torre]

I should say that you, core Jefferson, are someone that I first met years ago as a journalist. And you have completed this trajectory. And it's not complete yet, but you are mid story arc near what feels like it's not A peak yet. But it feels like this has all the trappings of that scene in the movie where like the first writer, director has the big screening in New York, this premiere. And my vantage point is as a friend of yours who has his own, his own high stakes decision, which is to figure out if I like it.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And then how do you navigate the post screening conversation if you don't?

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly, exactly. That's the, I mean the thing that I always. The thing that I always think is the. Is the most appropriate thing to say because you don't want to lie to your friends. But the thing that is, is honestly good to say to anybody. Like is you're like, you know, if you, if you read a book that your friend wrote and you don't like it, you can say you wrote a book. And that is a massive, massive accomplishment. Like you wrote and published a book. That's huge. And so I've had people come up to me and say, you made a movie, you made a movie. It's so great. And I'm like, oh, that is the oldest trick in the book. I know that.

[Pablo Torre]

This is what we need to talk about is the, is the, the handbook that anybody who has friends who makes things. How do I maintain my own integrity creatively while also not alienating them.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

And I think we both have a friend who will go nameless. You might be able to know who it is immediately whose go to line, which I love is. Thank you for making this.

[Cord Jefferson]

That is incredible. I've never heard that before, but I think I know you're talking about it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it's brilliant. It threads the needle of. I am. I am expressing a gratitude.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You're getting a compliment.

[Cord Jefferson]

Oh, absolutely. That's. I just don't.

[Pablo Torre]

And so do you care? Right. Like this is, this is the question I'm getting at the thumping in the back of your brain about salesmanship. How much of it is also parsing the compliment because that reflects too on. On not just the marketability of the thing you made, but also about ego and self esteem.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I want, I want people whose tastes I respect and people I love to like the movie. I do. There's. There's a, there is a real part of me that wants that. That being said, I need to come to terms with the fact that not everybody is going to like the movie that I. This is especially, you know, you know, the movie, the movie that I made is, you know, it's not like supposed to please everybody. You know, there are. I knew going into it that there were going to be people who did not like the film, and that's. And that's who saw themselves in it.

[Pablo Torre]

In the wrong way. Can I ask, what you were in.

[Cord Jefferson]

For was a murder. You said that, not me.

[Pablo Torre]

They're offering $4 million for moving rights.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yes. Perhaps they felt too uncomfortable to actually enjoy it. And so I know that that's. I know that that's happening. That being said, there are people. You know, that's. That's why last night's screening, despite the fact that it was full of. Full of my friends, I was extra sensitive, despite the fact that the theater's full of people who love me, because it's like, you know, it's like Wesley Morris was there. Right. And, like, I love Wesley Morris's criticism. I think he's an amazing, Pulitzer Prize winning, Pulitzer Prize winning film critic whose work that I love and whose tastes I really respect. And so, you know, he's sitting there and I'm nervous. John Caramonica, who's another, like, amazing critic.

[Pablo Torre]

Dude, I was thinking of you explicitly at the party afterwards, because Wesley and John, I barged in on a conversation they were having about the movie. Oh, really? And I was like, oh, like, this is. This is, like. This is like wiretapping, like the inside of the New York Times.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. It's the New York Times podcast happening right in front of you. Those people are friends of mine, and people in the media are friends of mine, and so I'm very happy that they're seeing it. At the same time, these are people who I've come to really, really respect their professional opinions about art. And so I find it very difficult to maintain my composure and sort of, like, not feel sensitive to their opinions in that kind of environment. I went and saw a screening of Licorice Pizza before it opened, and PT Anderson gave this mini speech before the start of the film. And he said. But one of the last things he said, he goes. He goes, the movie's great. You're going to love it. Thank you for being here. And he walked away. And I remember thinking, like, man, I wish I had the confidence to stand in front of an audience of people and say, this movie is great. I really do. I really do.

[Pablo Torre]

No, there's an athletic confidence there.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Truly, like, this is a. It's an unrelatably athletic.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Superstar athlete just being like, watch this go in.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

I should say for anybody listening, because they don't know what I told you last night, which is that I am someone who thinks this is a special film.

[Cord Jefferson]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Truly. And we can zoom through me fellating you in that way. But legitimately, it's the ultimate compliment that I felt because you again, former journalist who goes and does a thing that is in many ways, what every journalist daydreams about. I was looking through just some of the reviews of the film already, and, you know, it was a quote about you that Variety said that I just want to say to embarrass you, you're now one of the most closely watched screenwriting talents, which is one of those things that is also like, okay, that's a loaded description. Like, is this guy gonna choke?

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, exactly. Closely watch to see if he's gonna blow it.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. But I want to establish that the stakes are high. Not just because you made something that I think people are. It's gonna be a thing. People are gon really resonate with it. But also because your arc, your success in screenwriting has been significant. It's been prolific by any standard. Early on, man. And I want to point out that the ultimate compliment to me that I felt myself feeling, to be perfectly blunt with you, and felt it sort of emanating through the air was that level of holy cord did it. And the back of my head is the thumping envy of like, oh, man. Jealousy of just like, he's doing it. He's doing it. Doing the thing that we all as journalists daydream about. We all want to make a movie. We all want to be this guy.

[Cord Jefferson]

No. Yeah, I know. I appreciate your vulnerability here.

[Pablo Torre]

This is at the same time, like, immense. Just pride as your friend and also, like, wow, I wish I could know.

[Cord Jefferson]

What that feels like. You can. I mean, this is the thing. This is the thing that I've realized is that is that.

[Pablo Torre]

Making.

[Cord Jefferson]

So I've worked in TV for about nine years before I made this movie. And I've sold numerous TV shows. I've developed numerous TV shows at places, and I've never been able to get anything on the air. It has been a constant uphill battle and constant rejection. So much so that when I went in and when the company produced this film is called T Street and T Street, when I was meeting with production companies, I met with them and they greenlit the film in the room. They said, we're going to make this movie. And I started to cry. I started to cry on zoom in the meeting because I had faced almost a decade of rejection over and over and over. And now to be sitting there with somebody looking at me and saying, we're going to make this. It was literally a decade of sort of like pent up frustration about this. And I think that it's interesting that you say that, though, because I think that, you know, the reason I think I was a journalist is because I. It was. My parents are professionals. My father's a lawyer. My mother was an educator. They both went to grad school. I didn't know anybody who made art for a living growing up. I didn't know anybody who had a creative job. And so I always knew that I liked to write. But to me, journalism was an opportunity to be creative but also still feel like a professional. And I didn't allow myself to consider myself an artist. I was like, it's kind of twee to say, like, you're an artist. You know, I want to be an artist. I want to create stuff. It was like, oh, no, I'm a journalist. That's a serious profession. It's something my parents can tell their friends I do. That's why I did journalism for a long time. And I always did it knowing that I would like to write a novel or write a screenplay someday. But I never really allowed myself to pursue those things because I sort of thought it was like, beyond my capability pavilion, beyond my reach.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to point out that, you know, in what you do and when I reference the arc, the part of the movie of your life that you're in right now, you have just had objective measures of success. And so I want to just be again, in the therapy couch way. If you're. If you're comfortable with it, just talk about what it means to be competitive and how awards validate your. Your. Your ego and desires, because there's. Man, I. I would be lying if I said that when you have a child's vision of what it means to be successful.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You're literally talking about, I want to win an Emmy, I want to win an Oscar, I want to win an NBA championship. Right. It's like this child's idea of sports and. And art being somehow the same thing.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And you're a guy who has won. You won two Emmys in the same year, right?

[Cord Jefferson]

No, no, I won. I won two Writers Guild awards in the same year, but I didn't win two Emmys. I won one Emmy.

[Pablo Torre]

And the Emmy goes to Damon Lindelof. Cora Jefferson. Watchman. How embarrassing. Sorry. The Wikipedia table. I was consulting, I was like, this all gets very confusing. But you worked on all of Watchmen, Succession, the Good Place, Master of none, station 11, which is anyway, the point is you have the resume validated by the, the hardware. And I just wonder honestly what that allows you to feel or what you take from just that proof of holy. I won this thing.

[Cord Jefferson]

So here's. So it's, it's interesting that you sort of like bring it up, bring up the sports comparison, because I think the thing that, the thing that I envy about athletes. I've thought about this a lot. The thing that I envy about athletes is that at the end of the day, there is a very clear winner and loser. There's very. And it may not be like, you know, if we play this game a hundred times, this team's going to win 99. But you won that one. And on that one day, you were the better team and the better player. I envy that so much because art is so subjective. It's. Art is. And I think that I had that. I had that impression. I remember from a very young age, probably like 96 or 97, I was 14 or 15. I was really, really into rap as a kid. And you know, that era of rap, to me in the sort of like 90s and then particularly late 90s, you just had like all these incredible talents who were doing amazing things and amazing art. And then that year, I remember I watched the Grammys and I remember that Men in Black, the Will Smith song for the movie, won best rap song of the year.

[Pablo Torre]

And the Grammy goes to.

[Cord Jefferson]

Get out of here. And I remember thinking, like, what? Men in Black is the best rap song of 1997. It's not a bad song, but it's a commercial for the, for the movie. Like, it, like, I remember thinking like, as a 15 year old, like, that is really the best.

[Pablo Torre]

Do the good guys really dress in black? Do I have to remember that?

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. Like, what is going on? Like, you have Tupac and Notorious B.I.G. and Jay Z, like, all really at the top of their powers and Men in Black is the best rap song. And so I sort of had this inclination, I was like, oh, this doesn't seem like an accurate assessment of the quality of something. It doesn't feel that way.

[Pablo Torre]

So you grew cynical early about what this is supposed to signal.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, but then here's the thing. As much as you tell yourself that, as much as I'm like, I try to sort of maintain my composure and say, like, okay, you don't need external validation. I talk about this in therapy all the time. That being said, though, you know when you're sitting in the audience in your tuxedo, you want to win you want to win.

[Pablo Torre]

No doubt.

[Cord Jefferson]

I'm not going. You know, you. You're sitting there and you're going, I want to win this thing. And despite the fact that you might, like, you want to be a sort of, like, bigger person and say, like, okay, it doesn't matter who wins. None of this matters. You want to win. You do. And so. And I will say that the practical reality of winning also is that, you know, my movie is full of black actors, the lead being Jeffrey Wright, who, in my opinion, is one of our greatest living actors and sort of like a national treasure. And Jeffrey Wright's never, never been nominated for an Oscar, you know, never. And he's kind of universally known as being, like, an amazing actor, but he's. He's, you know, he's. He's rarely sort of like the lead in a film. He's like, in a bunch of huge movies like Commissioner Gordon and Batman. He's got these huge parts.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, in Westworld.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, exactly. For whatever reason, like, people have overlooked him when it comes to his. Come to his talents and awards. And I think that awards do affect people's visibility, and it does. And beyond that, it affects people's paychecks. You know, like, if you win an Oscar, your price goes up, you know, and in a very real way. And so there's this obvious cognitive dissonance in, like, the thing. Oscar's so white. Right. Which is. Which is that we know and we have known for a very long time, obviously they're doing a bunch of stuff to try to rectify this at this point, but in years past that black actors and black art has been underappreciated by. By these, like, governing bodies, like, by sort of in. In film and television. Yeah. In film and television awards. Right. And so on the one hand, you might want to say, oh, like, but who cares then? Like, why do you even care about being nominated for an Oscar? Like, if you. If. If everybody understands that this governing body is not supporting your work, why do you still. Why are you. It's almost. It's like. It's like, why are you pursuing somebody who's rejected you all the time? You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, why do you. Why do you keep going after the girl who keeps telling you, no, I'm not interested. No, I'm not interested. What? Like, why. Why don't you go find somebody who loves you?

[Pablo Torre]

Why do you want this mortgage from this corrupt mortgage lender?

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly right.

[Pablo Torre]

And.

[Cord Jefferson]

But. And the reason Is. Is because there are real consequences to winning. There are.

[Pablo Torre]

You literally want a bigger house.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. Exactly. You literally want to. You literally want to send your kids to a private school in la, which is not cheap. You want to. You want, like, you want to build generational wealth. The way that you're watching, you know, all these other people around you build generational wealth. Like, there's. There's all these real concerns that. That go hand in hand with winning awards. And so that's why it's both equal parts real and not real. And so at the end of the day, you want to say, like, awards don't matter. Awards don't matter. Awards don't matter. But there are some very real concerns when it comes to awards.

[Pablo Torre]

But when it comes to the neurology of winning and wanting so badly to win when you're in therapy. Cause I. I am. I'm curious if what you're working on is a deactivation of the lizard brain such that you don't want to feel the high.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The dizzying high upon winning.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Because that's sort of the problem you have now.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, is that you're actually winning so often that you have to reckon with. Is this actually a feeling that I should indulge? Because I watched your movie and I'm like, dude's gonna be wearing tuxes at another thing pretty soon. Seriously. And. Which is amazing. And I want that for you. And I also, when I watch that awards ceremony, I want to think about this conversation and wonder if you're trying to. If you're trying to burn off the neural net.

[Cord Jefferson]

I haven't been reading the reviews. I haven't read the reviews for the film. People send me the headlines and people tell me, this one was good and I'll look at the headlines, but I don't actually. I can't bring myself to read them because it's too stressful for me. And I know I'm the kind of person who will read 10 great reviews and one bad one, and I will just linger on the bad one for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, and I won't be able to function. So even reading the good reviews, when you look at reviews, if you start to believe the good ones, then that also opens a window for you to believe the bad ones. It sort of like also opens the. Because once you start putting faith in what all these people are saying, then when I think about my creativity, I don't even subconsciously, I don't want to be sitting there one day Writing a script and saying, you know, remember that review that said they really liked when you did this on that film? Maybe you should, like, lean toward that. Like, maybe, maybe, maybe you should play more toward what this person said was really good in your last movie and do that in this movie. And I think that I want to be guided by my own instincts, and I don't want to be guided by these kinds of outside forces and outside opinions into doing what I'm doing. But so, so, yeah, I think that all of that stuff is designed. All of those practices are designed so that I can do what you're talking about. That. That is preparing myself for the possibility of being in an audience and, like, looking up at a stage and them not calling my name and calling somebody else's name and like, not wincing. That's the most. That to me is the most idea is just like hearing somebody else's name and then you just. You gotta like, still smile and applaud.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. There is no better or brutal. There's no better or I should say, worse acting from great actors than when they are clapping after just losing.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

That thing is less persuasive.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah. And it's, you know, I think that it is impossible to not want to win when you're in that situation. Clearly, I have this competitive instinct in me. But that being said, I really. I really, really try to avoid letting that shape anything that I do because, you know, the. I don't know, it really, like, I was just at tiff. We premiered the film at TIFF in Toronto. Yeah. And I saw. I saw so many great films. Like, so many great films. I was like, man, this is. I love this. I love this actor. I love this director. This is really great work. And, you know, the idea that I should then, like, the idea that I could walk away and like, make a hierarchy of the movies and of the art and saying, like, well, this was the, you know, this was the better art. Or this was, you know, this was the worst thing. It's like they're all so varied and different and trying to put statistical analysis.

[Pablo Torre]

Like you would in sports.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. It's impossible. It's impossible. I just. I think that I. I really, really love. I just really, really love. I love what I do. And I think that that to me is, you know, I. I try to focus on like, that being the victory, that being sort of like winning process. Yeah. It's just like, was I able? Because that's the thing that I can control. I can't control anything else. What I. Working to make something to the best of my ability and then putting it out in the world. That's. That's what. That's. That's what I can do at the end of the day, I can't do. So I think that there is something. There is something satisfying in that, because unlike sports, I'm not like, there's nothing. There's nothing that's going to keep me awake at night being like, here's what I should have done to win an Emmy. Here's what I could have done. You know, it's. It's not because I have no idea what you. You have no idea what you could have done to win an Emmy. You have no idea what the politics are going to be like that year or. Or who's going to release a movie that year. Who's going to release a TV show that year. If somebody's going to do a T, do you know if somebody's going to. If all of a sudden Meryl Streep's going to be in a TV show and she's not clearly going to clearly going to, like, destroy the acting category.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, it's what real world event will reshape the conversation. Capital T, capital C. Towards some piece of art that happens to reflect it, coincidentally.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly, exactly. And so all of. So I think that unlike a basketball player who might. Who might like, stay up and I just, like, if I had hit this shot, if I had just made that shot, if I had just made that block, if I had played defense a little harder in this moment, we could have won the game. I think that I have the piece of just saying, like, I certainly watch things that I've worked on and said, like, okay, I could have done that better. I could have executed that a little bit better. But that's more just about the creative process. That's more about the art itself, as opposed to, like, here's what I could have done to win this award. Because there's nothing that I could have done necessarily. It's all just. I just. I put it out and sort of like, what happens, happens. And I think that there is some comfort in that, that it's sort of. I can't control these things.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I think all the time about how in some sense the cliches around the Journey being the championship, the real. Yeah, the real title we won was the friends we made along the way. Like, that actually kind of what I'll be whispering on my deathbed to myself, truly, the older.

[Cord Jefferson]

The older I get, the older I get, the More. I realize that all that stuff is true. All the cliches are true. It really is. It's like it's about, it's about the process. If you focus on awards and money, you're going to be miserable because you're never going to have enough. Like, it's just you need to focus on being creative and making the work that you want to make and like let everything else fall to the fall by the wayside. The older I get, the more I'm like, oh yeah, all like the Eckhart Tolle books are accurate, all those like those like quote of the day calendars.

[Pablo Torre]

But also I want people to appreciate it. So much of your film is about the themes that we're touching on here. Right. Who gets to make what. Competitiveness, ego. And literally, again, spoiler alert. Like the crescendo of the film is an award ceremony.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Truly something that I, I want to parse just a bit about. Like who the. Again, I, I say this all the time now. Like the contemplation of are we the bad guys? And I think so much of why this movie is worth talking about is because in American fiction, your film, the bad guys are people. Ostensib. Good intent.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah. There's already so much buzz because of the movie deal.

[Pablo Torre]

Michael B. Jordan is circling.

[Cord Jefferson]

We want to put him on the COVID in one of those scarves, I guess you would call them, tied around his head. A do rag. Yeah. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Who want to be again, admittedly on very superficial box checky sorts of ways, but think they're the good guys.

[Cord Jefferson]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

And their intent is not to drag down its tattoo, to actually perversely elevate.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

And in that selection of who you elevate, you again are revealing that. Yeah, there's a nuance here that is being a little missed.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly, exactly. And I think that I don't ever want. I come from a very weird household where my father is a black Republican, my mother was a white liberal. They had very different ideas about politics in the world and nothing was taken for granted in my household. It was sort of always like, you need to figure out how you think about the world. Because both. Because they had such polar opposite opinions on so many things that it wasn't like I could sort of like take everything like spoon fed for my parents about how the world works. I knew, I knew from a very early age, like, oh, okay, these people have very different opinions about everything.

[Pablo Torre]

This comment section is a little messy.

[Cord Jefferson]

I know. Exactly, exactly. And so it was, so it was up to me and they made it clear that it was up to me to sort of figure out how we wanted to think about the world. And so I grew up with this, with this idea that things are difficult and complex and there aren't going to be answers to these questions sometimes. And that's okay. And I think that that's what I wanted the movie to explain is that another thing that sort of like is real and not real is race. Right. And that the vast majority of scientists will tell you that the differences between the races is, is, are, are very, very insignificant compared to sort of like all of our similarities.

[Pablo Torre]

Sure. So all of this stuff is on a DNA level. Yes. Right. As much as I am measuring your skull right now.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. Get out the calipers. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

As much, as much as I want to show you my binder of skulls, admittedly.

[Cord Jefferson]

But, but at the same time it's, we have created, we have structured society and our laws and our traditions around the idea that this is real. And so, and as I said, sometimes race has fatal consequences. So on the one hand race is not real and on the other hand racism is real. Right. And so that, that there's an inherent absurdity there. Like there's an inherent ridiculousness to that idea. And to me it's like, let's laugh at that. Let's find ways to sort of like have fun with that and talk about this. Because we're never gonna solve this stuff if we don't talk. And I think that. But it's finding an audience amongst very, very disparate groups of people, which to me is exactly what I set out to do.

[Pablo Torre]

So to me, again, my unrequested college lecture is along similar lines though the idea that race. We're sort of borrowing the language of many topics we've talked about already here. But race is consequences.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Race is not up to you to decide on a real level. Right. That's the whole one drop rule idea. Like, but it's up for someone else to decide. And if someone is, is going to assume that you are this way.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Then they're going to treat you with consequences that accord with that. Even if you bring out my Ancestry.com results and point out actually.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm just a really dark skinned Indian guy.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, sorry, you know, it doesn't work when you're dealing with the police department.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

But the second thing that I was thinking about as I heard you talk about how this thing that is not real has real consequences is that I'm ready to write my think piece that race is like the academy of race.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's exactly right.

[Pablo Torre]

It's total fiction. But also the most important thing that determines how big my house is.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly. That's exactly right. It is. It is like. It is the strangest. I mean, yeah, just we. We have create. We have manifested all these things so that they are real. And like, race is the number one. It's the. It's. And to me, I just wanna. I wanna start. I just wanted to point out that the ridiculousness in that and then have fun with it. I. I like the spiritual. A spiritual predecessor for my film was Hollywood Shuffle. I'm not sure if you've ever seen it, but.

[Pablo Torre]

But I haven't. But please.

[Cord Jefferson]

It's Robert Townsend. Co written by Robert Townshend and Kenan Ivory Waynes, directed by Robert Townshend and starring Robert Townshend. And he plays a black actor in Hollywood trying to make. Trying to break into the field. And the difficulties that he has with, like, not playing pimps and gang members and muggers and rapists and sort of like every. Every job that he's going out for, it's these, like, same things. And they're like, well, could you. Could you, like, walk blacker? We need a blacker walk. And he's like, well, what's a blacker walk? And it's like. The guy's like. And it's a. There's. There's this amazing. It's like. There's. It's full of, like, little skits here and there. And there's this amazing skit where he's like sitting there waiting to go in and do this audition for this film. And he's like. He envisions this black acting school and then the black acting school. It's like all these white teachers that are like, no, you gotta walk like this, brother. And it's. And it's like. And he's like talking to other guy. And he's like. He's like. You've worked a lot this year, right? Ricky, can you tell us what you've been doing since you've graduated? Well, Robert, I've played nine crooks, four gang leaders, two dope dealers. I played a rapist twice.

[Pablo Torre]

That was fun.

[Cord Jefferson]

It's just like. It is all the things that people are still talking about nowadays. And it was done in a way that. It was the first time that I can remember as a child seeing somebody talking about these issues in a way that made me laugh so hard. In a way that sort of really. I think in the same way that, you know, in the same way that Chappelle did it, you know, in the same way that Richard Pryor did it. Like, like I was exposed to those guys later, but that was the first, that was the first time in my life that I was like, oh, this is. These are incredibly serious issues that have incredibly serious consequences as we're talking about. But these guys are talking about it in a way that is just so funny and delightful and joyful. And I loved it. And I loved that. I loved realizing that you could do that. You could. And that in some ways it was easier for people to accept. Accept it when you did that. That if you sort of like tried to write an academic thesis about this and then read it in front of like a white audience to try to get them to learn how many of those people are never gonna attend to that performance in the first place. You know?

[Pablo Torre]

Truly. Truly. This is why when I say think piece, I say it as if like a think piece, if you were to label it as such and hand it to someone is like, hey, I got this real curdled milk.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

Wanna try it?

[Cord Jefferson]

Take a sip.

[Pablo Torre]

It's profound. There's profundity in this milk.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

But, but you mentioned, you know, the Robert Townsend thing. And it reminds me of so much of, of, of what I was enjoying on a pure just like belly laugh basis in your movie, which was Jeffrey Wright being a guy again, spoiler alert. To some extent. Who is now cosplaying as, As a fugitive.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Who is on the run and has a criminal past and is trying to now carry himself with the whatever the opposite of the word gravitas is when.

[Cord Jefferson]

You'Re talking about that character kind of gravitas.

[Pablo Torre]

Exactly.

[Cord Jefferson]

He's gone too far.

[Pablo Torre]

Stag. Arleigh is still on the run for authorities. You haven't done anything. It's not like they can arrest you. Right, right, right. There should be. There's a German word for this. I don't know what it is. It's a super racist German word. But whatever that is, it's like, how do you. Again, you're a first time director.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And Jeffrey Wright is Shakespearean.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So just the idea of getting him to buy in.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you direct Jeffrey Wright, Dude.

[Cord Jefferson]

To make another sports analogy. It's truly like telling like giving tips to Michael Jordan about like a jump shot. It's, it's like I. That he was the most intimidating person to come to when I was putting the movie together because I knew that I wanted him so early that I Started reading the novel in his voice. When I was thinking about the scenes in my mind, Jeffrey Wright was already there when I was reading the book. And so he's the first person that I went to. And, you know, I think that a lot of people talk the talk of, like, want. I mean, we've seen it very recently, sort of like post George Floyd, everybody, like, oh, well, we're going to increase our diversity and we're going to start reading these books and. And we're gonna have anti racism lectures and yada, yada, yada. And now there's just been such a huge backlash to that. Right. And I think that there's been a lot of. And there's a lot of people talking about this and, like, we're gonna make changes, yada, yada, yada. And then there's guys like Jeffrey Wright, who. I come to him, a black man who's never written a film before, never directed anything before. I was like, I know you were in Angels in America on Broadway and you played Basquiat. Everybody knows that you're one of the greatest living actors that we have.

[Pablo Torre]

Gravitas.

[Cord Jefferson]

Gravitas. Exactly. Exactly. And I know you could work with anybody. You're in Batman, you're in 007, you're in all these Wes Anderson movies. He works with some of the biggest and most acclaimed directors in the world.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Cord Jefferson]

For him to look at me and sort of like, my total inexperience and his willingness to say, okay, you know what? I'm gonna trust you with this and let's do this. That, to me, is walking the walk of actually trying to promote div in the industry. It is truly looking at somebody who has never done this before and is traditionally underrepresented in the industry and saying, like, I'm going to. I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to give it. I'm going to. I'm going to see if this works. And, like, I'm putting my faith in you that we're going to make this thing. And that to me was, I'm forever indebted to him. I'm forever indebted to him for that because he could have. He could have done a million other movies with a million other huge directors who are way, way, way bigger than me. And he took time out of his life to work with me on this. Sort of on this. You know, it was. It's like, as you said, it's like a pretty esoteric book even. It's not. It's not like a Slam dunk, like best selling novel that came out in 2022.

[Pablo Torre]

It's not conventional IP.

[Cord Jefferson]

Exactly, exactly. And he said, okay, let's do it. And I think. And after he said that, everything became.

[Pablo Torre]

Easier because your cast is ridiculous. I should say.

[Cord Jefferson]

The cast is amazing. The cast is really, really amazing. And I think that. And, and the tip of that spear was Jeffrey Wright. It was, it was that once Jeffrey Wright was signed on, everybody was like, oh, this movie's real now. The financiers, the financiers agreed to give us more money for the film. Actors became much easier because they were like, oh, I want to work with Jeffrey Wright. Are you serious?

[Pablo Torre]

K. Brown was like, yeah, I'll be shirtless in every scene. First time director.

[Cord Jefferson]

I mean, man, if I look like Sterling K. Brown with my shirt off, I'd be shirtless right here. I'd be shirless on this damn podcast.

[Pablo Torre]

We're gonna photoshop ourselves in post with lots of muscles. I do wanna point out at the end here though, I praised you a lot. I do think you're a total hypocrite about one thing.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yes, please.

[Pablo Torre]

You mentioned how part of what's so exciting about what you get to do in Hollywood now is that you get to put black people in positions that are fanciful and absurd. Yeah, right. Like you can put em in space, you can have them do anything. And meanwhile, I'm thinking back to what you told me about your awakening to the bull of awards.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And I'm like, well, there was one actor who tried to do something like that.

[Cord Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And it was this. Atone for your hypocrisy.

[Cord Jefferson]

This is Grammy award winning Will Smith movie. Men in Black, the greatest rap song to come out in 1997. Forget Tupac, forget Biggie, forget Jay Z, forget Nas, forget Common.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Cord Jefferson]

This is the best we had to offer.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Cord Jefferson]

I'm not even saying that song's bad. It's just, it's just there's no way that that was the best rap song that year. There's no way that's a good song. Actually.

[Pablo Torre]

I want, I want all of our thoughtfulness that we attempted to put into this podcast to be reduced to one clickbait headline.

[Cord Jefferson]

I love it.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is that Cor Jefferson says Will Smith never deserved his Grammy.

[Cord Jefferson]

Cor Jefferson says that the Men in Black commercial that came out in 1997 was not as good as, I don't know, illmatic. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. I'll stay. I'll die on that hill.

[Pablo Torre]

Cord, thank you for being one of the good guys, literally dressed in black today.

[Cord Jefferson]

Thank you for having me, man. I love it. I loved being here. I love talking to you. It's always insightful and. Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. I asked this of every. Every one of my guests at the very end. I want to play an extra in one of your movies.

[Cord Jefferson]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

See, this is what I do at the very end.

[Cord Jefferson]

Deal. You are very well spoken, so I. I'll happily do that. But what do you want to play?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I should. I should live up to the promise of imagination.

[Cord Jefferson]

I think that's the key. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to play a seven foot white guy.

[Cord Jefferson]

Okay, fair, fair. That's 100% reasonable.

[Pablo Torre]

Great. So. So as I ponder what it is that I found out today, I'm reminded that you should just go see American Fiction when it comes out in theaters on December 15th. Take my word for it, but also find out for yourself, as it were. But as for what I found out, I am thinking about a writer named Steven Pressfield who wrote a book called Turning Pro. This guy Billy Oppenheimer posted about it, and I stumbled across an excerpt, and it sent me into this rabbit hole of its own. Steven Pressfield talks about something called a shadow career. And he writes, quote, when we're terrified of embracing our true calling, we'll pursue a shadow calling instead. That shadow career is a metaphor for our real career. Its shape is similar. Its contours feel tantalizingly the same. If you're dissatisfied with your current life, ask yourself what your current life is a metaphor for. That metaphor will point you toward your true call. And so that is how Kord felt, as he said, about being a journalist but really wanting to be a screenwriter and director. And now I'm left wondering if that's how I really feel about what I'm doing. And I don't think it is. This is kind of a big development here because I have an inner golem, a golem that regards, you know, an Oscar, an Emmy, whatever, that trophy, that external validation as my precious. But having a conversation like the one today and having the conversations I've had on these two months of shows so far, as much as I love metaphors, and I do, this is a show about metaphors. I don't think this show is a metaphor for my true calling. I kind of feel like this show might be the calling, and I'm not sure, but that's the way it feels at the end of today's show. That's what I found out. And it feels good. As much as I have a screenplay, a movie to direct, a book inside of me, an itch, all of that to scratch, it feels good to know that the metaphor is actually something real. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out A Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time, Sam.