An Ominously Utopian Share & Tell with Katie Nolan, Dan Le Batard, and Pablo

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Episode: An Ominously Utopian Share & Tell with Katie Nolan, Dan Le Batard, and Pablo
Release Date: November 30, 2023
Host(s): Pablo Torre
Guests: Katie Nolan, Dan Le Batard
Theme:
An engaging roundtable episode where Pablo, Katie, and Dan explore recent stories at the strange intersection of sports, media, technology, dystopian futures, and human psychology. The conversation moves from the Sports Illustrated AI author scandal to the collectible vices and virtues of sports greatness, and finally lands on the extravagant, futuristic Saudi development project, Neom. The tone is witty, at times exasperated, part panic, part amusement—a true whirlwind through the oft-absurd headlines of modern sport and society.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Animal Group Names as Icebreaker [00:35–03:02]

• The episode begins light-heartedly with a game of recalling animal group names (e.g., "a sleuth of bears," "a raft of ducks," "a parliament of owls").
• Memorable Quote:
  • Katie: “A group of whites is called a podcast.” [03:02]

---

2. The Sports Illustrated AI Writer Scandal [03:22–16:43]

What Happened?

• Pablo, a former SI fact-checker, explains the recent discovery that Sports Illustrated had published articles written by AI "authors" with fake, computer-generated headshots.
• The scandal was exposed by Futurism, after which SI erased the relevant articles.

Why It Matters

• They reflect on what SI used to be: “where the best work was done in the field that I cared about the most... protected by the fact checkers... made sure their copy was the greatest stuff being birthed by sports journalism.” — Dan [07:32]
• Pablo highlights the erosion of journalistic standards and facts, the outsourcing for profit, and existential worry for both media literacy and the future of skilled journalism.

Key Moments & Quotes

• Pablo: “It used to employ, like, William Faulkner. And now it employs...a person who can be found also on an AI headshot marketplace.” [04:43]
• Dan (mocking SI’s statement): “Advon has assured us that all of the articles in question were written and edited by humans. How is that a sentence that I am supposed to understand?” [07:32]
• Katie: “If kids...just go to a website and you tell it to write your paper...and then those kids...don’t know how to write because they really didn’t learn how to, because they didn't write any papers... Feels like something we should probably figure out.” [14:33]
• Pablo: “My hope is that when people hear AI, they associate it with bad quality.” [15:09]
• Katie: “But how long do we think it’s going to stay being a sign of poor quality?” [16:04]
• Dan: “Aren’t you talking about...whether art has a soul or not, and whether you can create it artificially?” [16:43]

---

3. Addiction & Athletic Obsession [18:11–32:29]

Crossover Traits: Champions & Addicts

• Dan introduces an article from The Athletic about how the same psychological traits that make elite athletes—obsession, compulsiveness, reward-seeking—can also predispose them to addiction.
• Discussion expands to how sports can “reframe” maladaptive traits as virtues, raising questions about life after sports, mental health, and the dangers of failing to address underlying issues.

Key Moments & Quotes

• Dan: “You almost can't be as great as Kobe is unless you run every other thing off. And so I just wanted to explore...might a champion...be more predisposed to addictive type of things because their identity is intertwined in...‘when I compete, I get all of the rewards!’” [18:17]
• Katie: “It feels like...You've gotta have the negative things to make great art...You cannot be a champion if you aren't an addict.” [20:13]
• Pablo: “It feels like sports is a place where a vice can be recast as a virtue...” [21:09]
• Dan: “Balance isn’t a part of the success equation in the sports pipeline.” [27:50]
• Pablo: “There are costs associated that do not get paid so clearly, until the profits you’re making...go away, you don't realize, oh my God, I am ill equipped to live as a balanced person in my life.” [27:05]
• Katie: “Mental health for athletes is incredibly important...Teams provide mental health services to their athletes...We don't make sure that when they are done using this person for their skills...we don't make sure that they then release them back into the world in a way that's like they are equipped to deal with the way the real world works.” [25:18]
• Classic anecdote: Marilyn Monroe to Joe DiMaggio:
  Monroe: “Joe, you’ve never heard such cheering.”
  DiMaggio (ruefully): “Yes, I have.” [31:09]

Concerns

• The fear that addiction-like behaviors are not only tolerated, but celebrated in sports culture, and inadequately addressed in athlete support systems.

---

4. Katie Nolan’s Obsession: Neom & The Ominous Utopia [32:46–47:15]

What is Neom?

• Katie shares her curiosity about Neom, a seemingly sci-fi “city of the future” being built in the Saudi desert—heavily marketed during U.S. sporting events.
• The Line—a linear, mirrored city for 9 million people, powered by renewables, no cars, all amenities within 5 minutes; part of a multi-trillion-dollar, MBS-funded project.

The Panel’s Take

• Reactions oscillate between amusement and skepticism; the trio scrutinizes the utopian marketing and the dystopian implications (authoritarian control, wealth inequality, environmental and human rights concerns).
• Dan: “It’s a promo for a futuristic hostel ... as soon as I get there I’m going to be enslaved, building stadiums and kept in a prison near a prison toilet.” [36:02]
• Pablo: “It does feel like the Snowpiercer train, but a building.” [42:23]
• Katie: “It’s built along a coast in a straight line...What about an animal who needs to get to the other side?” [42:39]
• Dan: “What is being built out there ... is something with oil money to protect you in an environment...from the rest of the world.” [42:57]
• Pablo: “At a certain point if you have enough money you are on...some sort of email list where you get sold an apocalypse bunker. This feels like a high grade apocalypse bunker of a civilization.” [43:31]

Memorable, Witty Exchanges

• Dan (on Neom’s luxury): “I’d like the luxury suite in 2030...Concierge service, please; near nature and somewhere near the ski slopes, if you don’t mind.” [46:40]
• Pablo (on sportswashing): “Pay no attention to the bone saw.” [45:46]
• Katie: “It’s not the line but in...Neom. I always want to say like no, it's just too short. Neoma can't trust me.” [44:17]
• Pablo on future: “This isn’t the future, guys. We got this Neom thing. We’re living in the future.” [48:18]

---

Notable Quotes (Quick Reference)

• "You almost can't be as great as Kobe is unless you run every other thing off." — Dan [18:17]
• "A group of whites is called a podcast." — Katie [03:02]
• "My hope is that when people hear AI, they associate it with bad quality." — Pablo [15:09]
• "Balance isn’t a part of the success equation in the sports pipeline." — Dan [27:50]
• "It does feel like the Snowpiercer train, but a building." — Pablo [42:23]
• "At a certain point if you have enough money you are on...some sort of email list where you get sold an apocalypse bunker. This feels like a high grade apocalypse bunker of a civilization." — Pablo [43:31]
• "I called, I asked. They're not [okay with shorts]. Neither are we." — Katie [46:33]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:35–03:02] — Animal group names game; opening mood
• [03:22–16:43] — The Sports Illustrated AI scandal, journalism in crisis
• [18:11–32:29] — Sports, obsession, addiction, and athlete mental health
• [32:46–47:15] — Neom, “utopian” city-building, realities of dystopian wealth and tech
• [47:32–end] — Closing “what did you find out today?” round; reflections

---

Episode Takeaways

• Journalism’s Soul on the Line: The SI/AI scandal is a microcosm of larger forces eroding journalistic standards and editorial integrity in the pursuit of profit, with AI as both symptom and accelerant.
• Success/Obsession/Addiction: The athletic pipeline rewards traits that in other domains constitute pathology; the line between excellence and dysfunction is thin, underscoring the need for real mental health support.
• The Dystopia Next Door: Neom is both a wild sci-fi fantasy and a real-world warning—about authoritarian wealth, displacement, and the capitalist urge to build bunkers for the elite.
• Wit & Vulnerability: The conversation maintains a deft balance of gallows humor and real alarm, capturing the essence of modern confusion over the future of sports and society.

---

Overall Tone

Wry, skeptical, alternately despairing and amused; the trio toggles between laughing at the absurdity of modernity and mourning what’s being lost—whether the craftsmanship of a Sports Illustrated story, or the soul in both sports and society at large.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[B]

Are there 9 million people who would want an apocalypse bunker?

[C]

I'm totally calling and seeing how much their pina coladas are. And if that resort community is someplace.

[A]

I can retire right after this ad.

[B]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings.

[A]

So, like, is it a. A bunch of crows or a murder of crows?

[B]

Of course that's the one you start with. It's usually the reveal where you're like, you know, a bunch of.

[A]

Building up to it feels.

[B]

A flock.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or a gander.

[A]

Hold on. Animal. Animal. I'm not. I'm not Googling animal plurals. Oh, there is a. Okay.

[B]

What?

[A]

There is a collective term for a.

[B]

Bunch of cats, and it is.

[A]

Oh, now we're going to build to this one. I'm not starting there. We know about an army of ants or a colony of ants.

[B]

Right. Of School of fish.

[A]

School of fish. This is. This is. This is good. Jeopardy.

[B]

I'm glad we're doing this. Me too.

[A]

A sleuth of bears.

[B]

Oh, I love that. A sleuth.

[A]

Very surprising. A cloud of bats.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Love that. We're not talking about these enough.

[A]

Yep. Wow. Love this one for ducks. It starts with R. This is a. This is. This is a show we should go to.

[C]

Show.

[A]

Where we just guess.

[B]

A rip roaring, good time of ducks.

[A]

A raft of ducks.

[B]

Raft.

[A]

Like a boat raft of ducks. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Whoa. This is. This is a good one, too.

[B]

Whoa. This changes everything.

[A]

Fox. Okay, Foxes. There are two of them. One of them is troop, which is cool.

[B]

Sure, fine. Respect them.

[A]

Yep. There's another thing. That's a troop of something.

[B]

I believe it's actors and they.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Actors in a small theater.

[A]

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. An Earth of foxes.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

For that reason, you are an Earth. An Earth.

[B]

They have their own planet.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Are they Mormons?

[A]

They're more Scientology. Zebra.

[B]

Okay, this is a good one.

[A]

Black, white, and a masthead of zebras all over these days. Masthead of zebras is good. Better, arguably than the answer, which is a cohort of zebra.

[B]

I kind of like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Seems like you're up to some stuff.

[A]

Yep, yep, yep, yep. All right. Cat. C. Ace. I'll give you the second letter.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. L. A cluster.

[A]

Oh, you're so close.

[B]

A cloister.

[A]

You're less close, but still very close.

[B]

A clump. Is it a word I've heard before?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just say it.

[A]

Okay. It's A synonym for like mess.

[B]

Clutter.

[A]

Yeah, clutter cluster.

[B]

One letter different.

[A]

A parliament of owls.

[B]

How cool is that?

[A]

Parliament of owls.

[B]

How cool is that?

[A]

Changes everything.

[B]

It makes me want to vote for one.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

A group of whites is called a podcast.

[A]

I am fascinated as to how Dan processes this, let alone you. Katie. Hello. Katie. You're here too.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Because Sports Illustrated is involved in this scandal now. And it's a true scandal insofar as the COVID up has been brutally terrible. And the crime itself is one that is a crime against journalism. They have hired and by hiring and.

[C]

Humanity, like literally a crime against humanity.

[A]

It's a very good point by you because what SI has been doing is not paying, but just. Just operating via some proxy third party, a roster apparently of artificial intelligent writers, which is to say bots to do stuff. And they got caught by an outlet called Futurism. They did great reporting on this. I'm very jealous of their reporting on this. But they noticed apparently that a bunch of these articles were God awful. They were like recommendations for like the best volleyball to buy. And they looked into this and as they looked into it, asked SI about it, all of these pages were wiped. And so, just as a reminder, Sports Illustrated, where I used to work as a fact checker. Oh, no, literally a person who would cross off every word on a printed page to make sure it was accurate. I was, I was working for a magazine that was not just at the vanguard of sports journalism.

[B]

It.

[A]

It used to employ, like William Faulkner. Right. And now it employs or. Or use the services of Sora Tanaka, who is a. A person who can be found also on an AI headshot marketplace where she is listed as, quote, joyful Asian young adult female with long brown hair and brown eyes. You can just buy her face.

[B]

Whose face is it?

[A]

It's a completely computer generated face. Oh, oh, oh. From a composite of, I guess, of everybody's face. Joyful Asian young adult females with long brown hair and brown eyes. And then this is just dystopian, man. And it's. And it's just. It's even more than that, though. It's sloppy. It's super sloppy to the point of, oh, this is hilarious. If it weren't also clearly a symptom of the larger disease that is ruining everything that we used to care about as journalists.

[C]

It'd be hilarious if everything that was happening didn't make me feel like everything that I believe in at my principal core wasn't being cheapened at every turn by a bunch of people being okay with it happening because I'm the loser in trying to stand for Pablo was a fact checker to start his career. That job doesn't exist exist anymore. I want to get into, before I get to into the dystopian nature of this, explain to people, Pablo, how it is, why it is. Sports Illustrated became the seminal journal in our times to chronicle sports and before magazines died, the lengths they would go to to pay people to make sure that something as simple as facts were correct. That's how Pablo got into the business. That job is the video researcher on NBA team who works 80 hours and has to chase down everything because every syllable has to be true.

[A]

Yes, I was, I was a version, an even sadder but more Filipino version of Eric Spoelstra grinding away in the cavern of Sports Illustrated there to literally cross off every word to make sure it was true. And this was a point of pride. This was a point of, this is the point of Sports Illustrated was in a world of relative fluff, here was substance and here was accuracy. And so I call up not just the writer, but the writer's sources to make sure that everything was accurate. And the, the legions of people who came up through the ranks doing this, Dan, it was not coincidental and it was not just like steerage class. It was the place up through which you rose because you needed to be trained in the discipline in order to like hang at this magazine. And so dude, I don't know if people know the kids, kids definitely don't appreciate what SI represents. Even though I think I, I, I can probably begin to explain it, but I don't think they'll ever appreciate the relative importance of it in sports media.

[C]

I will try to explain it to the best that I can, but this was where the best work was done in the field that I cared about the most. Because the people who were applying craftsmanship and care to these things were the writers that I admired most who were protected by the fact checkers who made sure and editors who made sure that their copy was the greatest stuff that was being birthed by sports journalism. But Katie, imagine when, when Pablo says I want to know how Dan feels about this. Nevermind as a journalist. How about just as an old person to be, to be met with when, when Pablo says proxy third party. And I'm going to read to you a sentence, Katie from Sports Illustrated in reaction to the scandal. The the proxy third party is called Advon. Okay, That's a futuristic terror advon, A capitalized V, capitalized D, lowercase. This is from the future assured us that all of the articles in question were written and edited by humans. How is that a sentence that I am supposed to understand? 1980s journalist, me growing up when they used to as a business model, what it was. Let's throw yesterday's news on your lawn or in your bushes for 25 cents. How am I supposed to understand the sentence? Advon has assured us that all of the articles in question were written and edited by humans. What do you mean they were? Why am I questioning them?

[A]

Katie, Katie. No, they've assured us. The robots have assured us.

[B]

But they weren't.

[A]

That they're not robots.

[B]

But they weren't. You showed me that, lady. Where's the discrepancy here? Are they lying?

[A]

They are, I believe, being dishonest. Yes.

[B]

Are these articles. Can I just ask? I'm devil's advocating. I know you guys are gonna die on. On your big J jersey.

[A]

If I may yell names.

[B]

Were these like the articles? Like when you get to the bottom of an article and it's like it has a picture that's clearly to get you to click and it's like 10 simple ways to cut belly fat. Are these those type of articles? Like the type that I feel like Yard Barker was probably first in doing was like all those served articles at the bottom of. Anybody who's media literate knows not to.

[A]

Click on a chum bucket.

[B]

Is that it's a real term for it.

[A]

Yeah, a chum bucket. Like the thing of like, you'll never guess whose pimple this was.

[B]

Yes, exactly that.

[C]

So what you're asking though, is the difference that no, you know, average American reading a thing on the Internet is going to make a distinction between credible news thing and infomercial thing meant to manipulate me.

[B]

But here's my thing. I'm not saying that it is a good practice, but I am saying, and I do think those need to be. I think we need to get rid of those. I think we also need to get rid of ads that look like they're TV shows. What?

[A]

Whose pimple is it always my pimple.

[B]

If we find out that one of those companies is employing AI people to write their dumb articles that nobody's reading is less. A little less of a than like if a front page SI article so that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Is written by AI.

[A]

What I'm saying about Sports Illustrated's front page, it's cover, right? Versus the chum bucket equivalent stuff of like the best volleyball for you to buy in which there are sentences that are insane.

[B]

Oh, did you have some yeah, I'd love to hear this AI article.

[A]

Hold on, let me pull up just one of the. This is by Drew Ortiz. In this case, a very white Hispanic face being worn by a robot that then became a Asian woman. But Drew Ortiz writes sentences like this quote, volleyball can be a little tricky to get into, especially without an actual ball to practice with. And it's just like, all right, not. Not exactly without the ball, but okay, but in this case, right, this was, to your point, like, advertorial, right? Like, here's a si. Dan didn't used to do this. And I think this is the point, is that SI was its license. So SI used to be owned by Time Inc. And Time Inc. Time Magazines. People Magazines owner. Like, office at midtown Manhattan where I used to work with like red pencils crossing off words and. And folders and paper and a library. That's not the case anymore. SI was licensed to a company called Maven, which became this thing, Arena. Arena is now the company operating this thing. And so they infused si.com with like, this. To the point where it's a valid question of like, Sports Illustrated does this now. Like, what is this? And it totally dilutes the premise of we used to be the literary home of sports journalism completely.

[C]

Sports Illustrated now also sells vitamins, sells an assortment of products. I don't know, when you talk about that dystopian prison that it now now is if it's nine remaining people still writing, most of those writers have left and the people.

[A]

Or been laid off.

[C]

Yeah, laid off.

[B]

Remember when they laid off all their photographers? They used to be a leader in that space. They always had the best photographs.

[C]

Sports Illustrated, this is what's happened to journalism, correct? This is not just sports journalism. This was best in its class stuff. And it's no longer that. But can you guys put that up again? Because that was some excellent writing. And I want to spend time with this Drew Ortiz because look at his life and the AI created life that we have. Drew Ortiz is someone whose other work I want to know. He grew up in a. In a farmhouse surrounded by woods, fields and a creek. He grew up in the wild. It's partially true. It says right there he spent much of his life outdoors. He's excited to guide you through his never ending list of the best products to keep you from falling to the perils of nature.

[A]

It's remarkable to be such an outdoorsy person, but to have a beard so cleanly lined up.

[C]

There is rarely a weekend that goes by where Drew is an out camping Hiking or just back on his parents farm.

[B]

Damn nepotism.

[A]

Oh my God. But this is, this is where. If there is any sort of upside to any of this, Dan, it is that currently at least, we are collectively, and I think everybody is laughing at this on some level, albeit ruefully, for many of us. And it's just establishing if you're using AI writers, it means you are dog it, right? Like there is such a. So it's two things. It's number one, the contempt you must have for the idea of a human reader that no one's going to notice. No one's going to notice that this.

[C]

Was written by what's happening in Hollywood too, where the CEOs are saying the writers and the actors and the creative soul of things, they don't matter. We can generate them. We can use information from the past in order through Google and funding to just create the tech companies that belch out writing, not, not art, but as just something that can be farted out because there's no discernment being made by the reader who doesn't actually Pablo, care whether Sports Illustrated is the nostalgic romantic thing we remember or it's just some outdated piece of that their grandfather used to read.

[B]

And probably even scarier to me is that it's happening in schools because if kids are not wanting to write a paper, which look, I didn't want to write papers, but if you don't want to write a paper and you just go to a website and you tell it to write your paper and then you hand that in and this happens long enough and then those kids that are in school end up coming into business and they don't know how to write because they really didn't learn how to, because they didn't write any papers. They just had AI do it. It just is. Feels like something we should probably figure out. Dan, you want a media company.

[C]

It seems a little bit scary though, what you're talking about. Like how you have to care about it to be scared of it though. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's a really good point, Dan. Like there is, okay, there's, there's two sides of this aisle, right? One are the kids who loved writing papers. The other side is the kids who don't give a F about writing papers. And I think the good news, the second upside of this to me, if there is one, is that it is being labeled AI as so like just terrible. Like it's just, it feels like a sign of cheapness. And it is literally that it's A company trying to increase its margins of profit by driving costs down. But in the meantime, it's sort of like, my hope is that when people hear AI, they associate it with bad quality. And even if you didn't like writing papers, my hope is that you don't want to read containing sentences like, luckily for you, we found some of the best full sized volleyballs in 2022 that are perfect for practicing your serves and sets every day.

[B]

Great. Lucky me.

[A]

Full size.

[B]

But you say that it. But how long do we think it's going to stay being a sign of poor quality? Because I feel like these types of things grow exponentially and AI feels like a couple years ago we were talking about it would be a thing. Now it is a thing. You can just access ChatGPT and all that other stuff. There are consumer products that are AI based, which means that behind the scenes, the stuff consumers don't have access to is probably much more advanced than this, which means that that will trickle down eventually. So that AI will no longer be a signal of bad quality, potentially. But it will mean that the person didn't care, didn't consider, didn't have human consideration or connection to a story. That's what's scary. But I can't.

[C]

What you're talking about, aren't you talking about there, Katie? Basically whether art has a soul or not, and whether you can create it artificially, whether giving something soul at Sports Illustrated through writing, through art, can computers do what humans can? I've always thought of that as the opposable thumb for us that makes us different from the computers, that it can't be recreated. But I'm less convinced of that than I used to be.

[B]

Look, once you accept that the next step of human evolution is that we're just going to become machines. So it all kind of makes a.

[A]

Lot more sense, you know, it does feel. If you want to throw up the Drew Ortiz photo again, this hottie. It does feel like Drew Ortiz is somebody who's just like walking around in the background of Dan's office in Miami.

[C]

I mean, that looks. That looks absolutely. If right now I were to go to John Skipper and say, make a computerized version of Clay Skipper, your son, I want them to put up there on the screen Clay Skipper's face next to Drew Ortiz, and you guys will see that Clay Skipper looks a little bit like the robotic prodigy of and progeny of a media mogul, just incredibly handsome.

[B]

That guy's not in the shipping container.

[C]

I have to create yet another white Latin here called Clay Ortiz.

[A]

Dan, what do you bring us today on Sharon Tell.

[B]

Is it nice? Is it uplifting?

[C]

It is interesting, is what I will say. It stimulated me. It's an article from the Athletic and it's something about sports that I had never actually considered this completely. I've written in the past about how I've believed that athletics would be more ripe for, say, gambling addictions than other places because you have people whose identity is tied up in competition and they're going to go seeking other. Other action, other ways to be competitive because of whatever the high of being identified as a winner is. But this article in the Athletic, it's making it seem as if there isn't much of a difference between the character traits required to be a champion and required to be an addict. That basically the same things that get you the rewards of athletic greatness, the obsessive compulsiveness of a crazy lunatic like Kobe Bryant, if not harnessed into sports, might not be able to be contained in greatness and then results in all sorts of kinds of addiction. Because part of your identity is being obsessive compulsive. You're sculpting a single thing to the lopsided detriment of a bunch of other things in your personality. You almost can't be as great as Kobe is unless you run every other thing off. And so I just wanted to explore with you guys the idea that an athlete, or a champion specifically, might be more predisposed to addictive type of things. Things because their identity is intertwined in. When I compete, I get all of the rewards. And when I get all of the rewards from high school, whenever I get in the pipeline, gymnast tennis, wherever it is, I'm getting love, I'm getting applause, I'm getting things that feel like happiness, but they're also things that are rewarded for addictive tendencies.

[A]

Rhythmic gymnasts, even gold medalists like Katie Nolan.

[B]

It's me doing the ribbon, but literal attached.

[A]

Gold medalists, rhythmic gymnast.

[B]

Yeah, I. Look, it's an interesting idea. It's an interesting examination of personality traits. You know me, I love anything that's like diving in on the humanity of the people who do the stuff like sports that we, that we love so much. But I also, I. I hesitate because it feels like, similar to like, almost like a cousin to this conversation we've had before about like some. And you've got to be an addict, a bad person. You've gotta be. You've gotta have the negative things to make great art. That's like a thing People have always been like, you have to be an or, like, well, this guy beat his wife. Well, yeah, but that's why he made this great song. Greatness comes born of the negative sides of who you are as a person. These feel very closely related. Like you cannot be a champion if you aren't an addict. It just, it makes me go obsession. Right?

[A]

I mean, but it does, it does feel about. It feels like sports is a place where a vice can be recast as a virtue. Because to Katie's point, the idea of man, I'm so obsessive, all I care about is winning. Therefore my personality trait, which would be maladaptive, which would be something that's clinically needing to be addressed in life, finds sort of safe harbor in a hyper competitive environment where everyone is a member of the dark triad. Shout out to the dark triad test, which we all variously failed incidentally. But the point about the smartest thing, losers.

[C]

That's why winners, winners would win the dark triad and winners would beat us at competitive things.

[A]

That's right, the metal stand. We didn't make the dark triad metal stand, unfortunately. But I think it's fascinating when you read this article in the athletics and it gets to the idea they focus a lot on soccer and in England. And it's a lot of reporting about how all of these psychologists got hired initially to make these guys better players, better athletes, better at scoring goals and so forth. And then they realized as they were doing these jobs like, oh, wait a minute, like the performance improvement aspect of this is, is not really the job. The job here is getting these people to feel healthier mentally. Because as much as it's about, oh, score more goals, it's about people realizing that they were crying out for help without realizing it. And it's, it's fascinating that in 2011, England's Football association produced a 117 page document on academy restructuring as part of its elite player performance plan. And just half a page, seven bullet points, was devoted at all to player welfare. The rest of it was all about like, how do we get these guys to be better? And meanwhile these guys are like going out, as Dan was saying, and many, many nights they're gambling addicts or they are just obsessed with things that they had been given the green light to be obsessed about in, in their job that they then were unable to disentangle from the rest of, of how they use their brain.

[C]

I remember the first time I thought about this was talking to Michael Irvin, who had all of these problems off of the field. But always in the off season. Always in. In a. In a time where he wasn't, you know, he was being criticized for a general recklessness and lack of discipline. And one of the things that he explained to me that I had not considered, he says, yes, I am an addictive personality. And when I'm doing football, I'm so addictive about it that my workouts are. I throw up twice is when my workout ends. Not the first time. I throw up the second time. And that takes all of me during a football season. But when football then gone, I get addicted to other things, other things that are less good for me than this creative outlet that gives me all of the ability to have the off season and the money that gets me into the temptations. And once you start becoming the person who's getting all the rewards at every turn through childhood, that feels like some form of love. Right? It may leave you empty wherever it is. I'm not even judging addicts and saying it's not always brain chemistry, but some of the things in your imprinting from your environment that always reward success when you are so obsessive that your workout's not over until you've done the second throwing up. And when you define discipline not the way others might, but you say, this is what discipline is. It isn't whether I get in a cocaine scandal at, you know, in the off scene. It's the fourth quarter. I'm exhausted, I'm really tired, and the other guy across from me has been stronger than me all game. But I have the discipline to not jump on the hard couch because I'm disciplined and I'm in that kind of shape. And I have tuned myself and sculpted my skills so much that my routes have to be a half yard better than the other guys. And he's fighting that hard, too. And I got to stay ahead of him for 10 years. And I'm not that fast. I'm not that physically fast. I got to stay ahead of him for 10 years when that's the addiction and it gets rewarded. Where do you put it when the season's over?

[B]

So I think this is a. An argument we've been making for a really long time that we still don't seem to be investing in, which is that, like, mental health for athletes is incredibly important. Important. That teams provide mental health health services to their athletes is like a responsibility that they have that we do not hold them to. We really don't make sure that when they are done using this person for their skills that apply to their. To this industry that can make owners of teams money, we don't make sure that they then release them back into the world in a way that's like they are equipped to deal with the way the real world works, which is not the way that, that the world works when you are a successful athlete, like you said, getting rewarded with things at every turn from a very young age. And so it just feels like until we can prove or somehow tie that idea in with profit for a team, they're not going to do it. And what scares me about articles like this is it, it, it. Not that the article itself scares me is well written, it's very interesting, it's thought provoking. But the discussion, I don't want to get to a point where people think that that part of an athlete, the addict part of an athlete is without that, if that's treated without that, they won't be great.

[A]

To your point, it's not just that owners are making a lot of money off of these athletes. Athletes themselves are incentivized to be this sort of obsessive, to blur the line between, oh, I have a personality trait and oh, I am struggling with a disease, which is what addiction is. And for me, there are some parts of this too that are not just about sports. Some parts of it are relatable. The idea of being a workaholic, you know, the idea of like the idea of my big. It's, it's what you would say in a job interview as a fake answer.

[B]

I work too.

[A]

I work too hard. I care about too much, too much. And it's like, well, that's seen as virtuous. And I relate to it as somebody who is perpetually thinking about work. I have content brain, as Dominique Foxworth has, has alleged. That's true. But I, I think it, it raises the question of what happens when you are imbalanced. And I think there are costs associated that do not get paid. So clearly until the, the profits you're making monetarily in terms of the ego scratching, the ego fluffing that certainly athletes, public facing people all can feel superficially until that goes away to Dan's point, you don't realize, oh my God, I am ill equipped to live as a, as a balanced person in my life.

[C]

Oh, but Pablo, I don't believe like I believe, if we get down to the core of this, it's one of the reasons that I thought the article was so interesting. Balance isn't a part of the success equation in the sports pipeline. That's not something that's being taught. That's not something that's being practiced. That's not something that is part of the ingraining of the fabric. When Katie says that all of those pages are devoted to the business must maximize the profit of the athlete's body, and none of the pages are devoted. And what about the athlete's mind when the body is no longer of use to us or whether it's doing other things that aren't in service of us? Like, where is balance part of the measurement of success? I think it's life success as I've gotten older. But I don't think in sports they're asking you for balance. Unless it's balance between offense, defense and.

[B]

Special teams or a balance beam.

[A]

In gymnastics, the point of balance. Right. Like, I think, Dan, the reason why. And I've. I've. When I. When I was at Sports Illustrated doing stories about, like, why isn't there a better mental health program in professional sports? An answer I would get back was, because if you're trying to inject balance into the brains of these athletes, you might make them worse.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. But I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's saying you can either be an athlete or like a properly adjusted human who knows how to, like, look, everybody makes. Makes. Everybody has the early stages of their life where their development happens, where they get their thing. They either have their nature and their nurture. Some combination of those things make them into the person that they are in their adulthood. And then in your adulthood, you can look back and solve those things, learn those lessons from your life, apply them to your life, and then continue living in a balanced way. And so I feel like the things that they needed to get them to the peak of being an athlete, if examined, will not just take out of them the things they've learned. They'll still have that knowledge. They'll still have that discipline. You don't need to continue with the thing that caught. That's why the addiction thing, I don't know. Because I feel like you can't just learn how to stop drinking so much.

[C]

What if what you're addicted to is the feel good? Like, why can't we. I understand the distinction that you're making, and it's a nuanced one, Katie, because between the types, yeah, we shouldn't be absolute about this, but if in service of the addiction you get all sorts of feel good, then how is it different from whatever it is the body responds to in liquor or drugs or heroin. If it's chasing the cheering in the middle of a stadium or the life that is riches or whatever you imagined your insecurities were in high school with boys or girls and all of a sudden you have access to a dating pool. You did. Like, why wouldn't you? Or how couldn't you get addicted to a variety of things if you're not being self aware about things that make you who you are?

[A]

Yeah. The athletes in this story attest to that too. They talk about how nothing beats the feeling of scoring a goal in front of thousands of people. Right. I mean, this is the. It's that line from an old story, an old magazine story. Joe DiMaggio is talking to Marilyn Monroe and they're both like, you know, Joe DiMaggio is long retired.

[C]

Such a good story. This is such a good story.

[A]

It's one of the, it's, it's a haunting quote. Marilyn Monroe says after coming back from like a tour of some place where she's like adored by the crowd.

[C]

No, she's on, she's on a services ship.

[A]

Like, oh, uso. It's a uso.

[C]

It's Marilyn Monroe on a boat filled with servicemen.

[A]

Yes, yes. And she says to Joe DiMaggio, Joe, you've never heard such cheering. And he very ruefully says, yes, I have. And it's just like, ugh, right? Like he is. He's feeling the part of his brain that used to light up and it's just impotent now. And I feel like what Meddle Media needs to do. Dan, I'm realizing I want to be solutions oriented here to Katie's point about like, why are we incentivizing addiction where glory. We're mythologizing it as a function of discussing it. There needs to be a last dance, but for a guy who's super boring, a last dance for a guy like a docu. A doc. A 10 part docu series for a guy who gets home to put his kids to bed and is also good.

[B]

And is just like, not that they say. And how did that make you feel? And you're like, it was fine. I took a couple deep breaths and I realized I had to, I had to take a trash.

[A]

The guy who says, you know what? I didn't take it personally.

[B]

No, I didn't. I forgot about it. I actually forgot even till you just brought it up just now. Wow. No grudges. The guy like that. We got a guy like that. Can you think of a guy like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Incredibly boring story about an who wasn't that successful but is just bland and obsessed.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like a pretty good dad. Yeah. Present. He's very present. Oh, he's so present.

[C]

He's the Michael Jordan of being present.

[A]

Katie, it's been pretty. It's been pretty bleak so far, I admit. On Pablo Torre finds out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what did you find out?

[B]

Well, so I brought a story that. Look, if I'll be honest, if this had been a light and fluffy podcast up until now, we could take this to a dark place. I think what we should do is we'll just air on the silly of it. Right. For the sake of everybody who's been listening to this, like futuristic dark.

[C]

Do not underestimate my ability to take a right into the darkness.

[B]

The grief eater.

[A]

Salivate.

[C]

I am ready to pounce. This has been one of my favorite podcast episodes of all time. A weaving tapestry of a journey through the dark, dark underbelly of the mental stuff that plagues us.

[A]

Yeah. Dan wants to cry. Katie wants to laugh because what did you. What were you up to?

[B]

I was watching a football game, as I am want to do on Sunday, I believe. I don't know, because it gets dark so early now that it was like dark when the game aired. So I thought that it was in the primetime game, but my fiance swears that it happened in the game, the game that was before the Eagles game. There was this commercial that was dystopian looking. It was like out of a movie. Some big tall towers in a desert and like a car all by itself driving on a lone road with the road lighting up as it drives by it in this vast desert. And then I'm like watching it, like, what is this? It's so strange. And then at the end it says like Epicon. And then it like shows this logo that says neom.

[A]

Neom.

[B]

And it said neom.com and I said, what the F. And since that I have not stopped learning things about Neom. We have an ad. It's not the one that ran during an American sporting event.

[C]

N E O N E O N.

[B]

And what we can play the ad that has more talking in it for that'll be helpful for the listeners. I think we have it.

[D]

What is Neom? This is Neom, or here, to be more precise, in the northwest of Saudi Arabia. But Neom is more than a place. It's a home for people who dream big. Bigger than that. That's more like it. It'll be a hub for innovation, an entirely new model for sustainable living. The vision for a new future. In fact, that's how it got its name. But what will be there? There's Oxagon, a thriving city at the crossroads of the world where advanced manufacturing will enable industries of the future. Trojena, a year round mountain destination. Just remember to pack your skis when you visit or skiing's not your thing. There's always Sindalah, one of Neom's many beautiful islands. Perfect for some R and R. And a line. A 500 meter high, 200 meter wide, 170 kilometer long city in the shape of, well, a line. No roads, cars or emissions. And everything its 9 million residents could ever need within a five minute walk. But best of all, the entire region was will offer unparalleled access to nature and will be powered by clean energy. All within easy reach of the rest of the world.

[C]

I don't trust it. I don't trust it.

[B]

I feel like I know it's a lot.

[C]

I feel like it's. It's a promo for a futuristic hostel like the movie Hostel. As soon as I get there I'm going to be enslaved, building stadiums and kept in a prison near a prison toilet. I don't trust any of that.

[B]

2030. This is supposed to be finished by.

[A]

I just want to stress for everybody who did not see that on the DraftKings network or on YouTube there were high production.

[B]

You got to look it up. You have to look it up.

[A]

We laughed at the AI being [e-mail]. this was like big movie budget, good stuff.

[C]

The good this is they have a.

[B]

A media studio on already in Neom. I've heard it Neom and Neom. So I'll just say whichever one comes out of my mouth and it'll probably be two different, different ones throughout this entire.

[C]

Just say it. Oil money.

[B]

Just say it's funded by. Well, it's a pet project obviously of MBS Mohammed bin Salman, who is the prince.

[A]

Crown Prince.

[B]

Yeah, Crown Prince. Thank you. Funded by the public investment fund which is a sovereign wealth fund of the Saudi government.

[A]

You may remember them from movies such as the Live Tour.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's money that we've seen recently quite a bit in our sports world.

[C]

It's unbelievable.

[B]

So the budget at One point was 500 billion. It's now last I saw at 1 trillion. Look, there are people who have known about this. It's been. It was announced in 2021 I believe. So if you like know a Ton about this. You should probably just turn off the.

[A]

Podcast because if you're a linehead, we're.

[B]

About to learn about it all kind of for the first time. And I did just like one page of notes.

[A]

So again, Katie has a. That fluttering sound was a notebook piece of paper.

[B]

A lot going on here.

[C]

Okay, but how, Katie, you're fascinated. You've done. You have become obsessed. You saw this commercial and you're like, how are people not talk about this? It feels to me like you saw this commercial the same way that I saw the first crypto ad. Before I'd even heard of crypto and there was a celebrity and I'm like, what is this? Why is this here? You saw something. Why aren't more people talking about this incredible amount of money clearly being poured in to building a fake utopia?

[B]

No less that it was less altruistic and more like, what the is this? It is a crazy looking idea. It's the. The big debate is whether it's just like a vanity project that will, like many in past that have come before it, never get completed. Be all vision, all sizzle, no steak, it won't ever turn into anything and it'll just like go to ruin. Or is this like a real, actual first step towards the future? The world that we see in movies, when we think about the future that now resembles in no way anything that we have. Like, we have been building cities the same way since we figured out how to build cities for the most part.

[A]

So this is now I want to be. I want to be the guy. I want to be the real are selling Neom properties.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And Dan, I'll do this. I'll do this to you. To you. Right. So the premise of this, the sales pitch you'll notice is that, whoa, this is sustainable. Like, we are going to use nature.

[B]

So it's. Well, let's let me do a quick distinction. The line is the main thing everybody's talking about. It is one part of this. The section of Saudi Arabia that it's in is about the size of Belgium. Would be neon dome, which I learned is a lot closer to the size of Massachusetts than I would have guessed. I think it's like the size of Maryland, which is crazy.

[A]

It's like Massachusetts, but with crown prince Mohammed bin Salman.

[B]

Sure, yeah. There's a lot of other things that make it nothing like Massachusetts, but. So the line is the main one that's kind of getting everybody to be like, what in the world is this? Because the concept is that it's these two Buildings that are a little bit taller than the Empire State Building that run about a hundred miles. So I guess the distance of if you were at the beginning of Long island, like where it is at Manhattan to the end of Long island, it's basically that just two straight lines that house 9 million people. It would be in these modules. 140 modules in this entire thing. Each one is 200 meters wide by 800 meters long by 500 meters high. 80k people per module that live in this renewable energy, sustainable environment where everything you need is within a five minute walk of where you live, right?

[A]

No cars, no carbon emissions.

[B]

If you need to get by, there's some not invented yet type of transportation underground that can take you from one end of again, the beginning of Long island to the end of long island in 20 minutes. Which to me doesn't make any sense because it's like, aren't there stops? The outside would be covered in mirrors. Which also seems like a huge difficulty given that it's going to be in the hot, hot desert and the sun will shine on it and reflect off of it. Just doesn't feel to me like that's going to be good for the flora and or fauna.

[A]

But it does feel like the branding of this has, has been along the line, pun intended, of hey, you there, Dan LeBatard. You're friends with that guy, Adam McKay, who's a climate change prophet, Doomsday prophet. If you guys are worried about that, we got you. We are building a thing that is prepared to not just minimize the effect we'll have on our planet, but will be prepared for the apocalypse. Just come into our very long bunker.

[B]

Not, not where we're going to give you state of the art security, aka monitoring you 24 7. Yeah, yeah, 24 7. Plants in there.

[A]

You saw in the video. There are lots of plants, fauna and flora.

[C]

We will ignore that. Dave Grohl had a performance in Abu Dhabi this week where he had to remind himself on stage with a piece of paper, no cursing, because he would end up in prison for a year if he cursed on a public stage. We will not talk about some of the other elements here that might cause people fear. Let's just specifically silly about the idea that because I was listening to this and all I was hearing was that phrase again and again, relatively close to the rest of the world, as if it's a hiding place safe from when the zombies start fighting over food, water, guns and money like that. Here's this city where you could live in a capsule somewhere if You're a rich person away from all the peril of the rest of the world fighting for survival. Survival.

[A]

It does feel like the snowpiercer train, but a building.

[B]

It also just feels completely impractical. It's built along a coast in a straight line. Completely sequestered from the coast tech trillionaires.

[A]

Ever gotten something like that's the line.

[B]

That was given to you. The coast of it don't force a line across. It doesn't make. What about an animal who needs to get to the other side of the line? It has to walk down 100 miles to get around it to get this doesn't. There's like migration patterns that cities have to take into consideration.

[C]

You guys are hearing it the same way I am though right? That basically what is being built out there is something with oil money to protect you in. In an environment. Keep in mind I've read some stuff about how difficult it is to get natural water in some of those places and how much the environment takes a beating by how they natural water to those places. This is going to be a city that is funded by wealth to protect itself relatively near the rest of the world from the rest of the world.

[A]

What it does speak to is this large and I think this is a real concern that certainly rich people have. I suspect that at a certain point if you have enough money you are on like some sort of email list where you get sold an apocalypse bunker. This feels like a high grade apocalypse bunker of a civilization.

[B]

Are there 9 million people who would want an apocalypse bunker?

[C]

I'm totally calling and seeing how much their pina coladas are and if that resort community is someplace I can retire. As soon as we're done here, I'm gonna do my own research and have a team of researchers find out how I can go live in one of these capsules somewhere in the sky and sand that protect me from, you know, other people who are less luxurious than I am.

[B]

Not the line but in. What's it called?

[A]

I just.

[B]

What's the name of this place?

[A]

Neom.

[B]

Neom. I always want to say like no, it's just too short.

[A]

Neoma can't trust me.

[B]

It means new future. Guys. It's an Epicon.

[A]

It's a treasure of tomorrow.

[B]

Epicon is the resort is like the hotel. Oh, Sindalah is a resort. Trojena. Trojena is a mountain ski resort with a man made lake. So it gives you the best of the of all the climates. I will tell you this. I don't know how. Yes I have no idea how, how, but the Asian Winter Games of 2029 have been given to Trojna. That is where those will be happening.

[C]

Spoil money. Yes.

[B]

Can't wait already just giving an unex Non existent city the future sporting event.

[A]

That's perfect.

[B]

That's on the up and up.

[A]

Now I'm glad this is squarely a sports story. I'm glad that the IOC or whatever organizing committee in this case was like, you know what this really does seem like, Quote, a perfect union of majestic nature, extraordinary experiences and architectural ingenuity. It does really feel like Epicon will be the starting point of great adventures.

[B]

I bet there is a lot of that. By the way, if you try to find out information on this, there's a lot of videos of people acting like they're like, what's up with this new Neom? And then you're like, oh, this person is clearly being given money by the. Oh, look, the crown prince has decided to participate in the interview. Interesting. Oh, is that a. I'm sure this will be very critical of the idea and technology behind this.

[A]

Pay no attention to the bone saw.

[C]

The. The blood money. Epicon. They're. They're putting con right in the title.

[B]

Epic is the. Is the. With is like within. Neom is the name of. I think it's the. It's.

[A]

Dad, wait, hold on, hold on. Dan has cut to the core of this epic con. The literal name of it is dad. It's not just con, it's epic.

[C]

That's right. It's not a small con. You just saw those videos. Like, there's nothing small about that conversation on.

[A]

It does feel like we're being punked, now that I think about it. What if, though, Is this real? This is real.

[B]

It has. They have started building it.

[C]

There is at least the call right now. I'm going to get. There are videos of like the phone call right now.

[B]

Digging out the line.

[C]

You guys can get a sanctuary bubble.

[A]

Dan's like, I just gotta make sure they're okay with me wearing shorts.

[B]

They're not. I called, I asked. They're not. Neither are we.

[A]

Dan is on his phone.

[C]

The luxury suite, please. I'd like the luxury suite in 2030. The best room you've got. Concierge service, please. Near nature and somewhere near the ski slopes, if you don't mind.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

With a wall that would keep out the Pablos of the world who are trying to get in on. Horn. In on my vacation. My luxury.

[A]

Yeah. If you could get me a room away from the migrant laborers.

[B]

Oh yeah. And we weren't gonna get dark, but there's already. They're displacing tribes and allegedly people are dying. I don't believe this.

[A]

Seems on the other.

[B]

I wasn't getting. But it. I should mention it's not. It doesn't look great.

[A]

Let's. Let's do this at the end of the show, as we always do, where we go around the table and say what we found out today.

[B]

Yes, Katie Nolan. I have to go first.

[A]

No, you don't have to go first. Dan Lebatard gets to go first.

[C]

I am very happy that Katie did all of that research. I wish we'd started with that following her curiosities. I frankly learned that it should have been Katie Nolan finds out instead of Pablo Tori finds out. We should have followed her curiosities wherever it is that.

[A]

How dare you. I love Katie's curiosities, but how dare you?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

So division in this locker room, I.

[B]

Had an AI White Hispanic man do this for me. I did not do any of this research.

[C]

Clay Ortiz rising in Metal Arc media. There's no stopping Clay Ortiz.

[B]

I don't know. I found out that I've got complicated feelings about addiction. I should spend some time thinking about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. Also, I feel like the complaint that we used to make about, like, where are our flying cars? This isn't the future, guys. We got this Neom thing. We're living in the future.

[B]

Like beyond the future is now all complaints.

[A]

We are in the Jetsons. Except instead of George Jetson, it's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman somewhere there said.

[B]

It was gonna be an artificial moon. What's that about? Somebody tell me what that's an artificial moon in Neom. What did you find out, Pablo?

[A]

I'd love to. I found out that I'd love to attend the Summer Olympics on an artificial moon.

[B]

What's happening? Why is everything so scary by 2029.

[C]

If we can get there? It's so scary.

[B]

I was just trying to.

[A]

I was just trying to watch Eagles.

[C]

Bills game I'm so scared.

[B]

What is this?

[C]

Are the Steelers for real? Is what I spent my day thinking about.

[A]

This has been Pablo Torre finds out A Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.