Brilliant Disguise: How to Find Your Voice, with Hank Azaria

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out, Le Batard & Friends
Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Hank Azaria
Episode: Brilliant Disguise: How to Find Your Voice, with Hank Azaria
Date: April 1, 2025

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the meaning of “finding your voice”—both literally and metaphorically—through the fascinating career of Hank Azaria. Best known for his chameleonic voice work on The Simpsons, Azaria shares his insights on identity, code-switching, performance anxiety, and personal growth. The conversation touches on his late-in-life transformation into a Springsteen tribute singer, reconciling public controversies (notably, the debate over voicing Apu), and the irreplaceable humanity at the center of performance, even as AI encroaches on creative fields.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Bruce Springsteen Fan to Frontman

• Hank’s 60th Birthday Project: Azaria recounts how he celebrated his milestone birthday by surprising friends as the singer in a Bruce Springsteen tribute band.
  • “I pulled it all like no one knew except my wife and like four other people that I was cooking this up… by the night of my party I had over practiced…” (01:00)
  • The anxiety of performing live singing for the first time at 60, including throwing up from nerves and requiring a cortisone shot.

2. The Power and Complexity of Voices

• Vocal Imitation Origins: Many of Azaria’s impressions began as hero-worship; Springsteen and a young Al Pacino, among others, shaped his young adulthood.
  • “Young Al, Godfather Al, Dog Day Afternoon Al... you take young Al Pacino on one end and Bruce Springsteen on the other, right in the middle there is Moe the bartender.” (05:00)
• Audition Anecdotes: He discovered Moe’s now iconic voice during his Simpsons audition, blending Pacino and Springsteen.
  • “Actually, in my mind that was going to be young Al Pacino. They said make it gravelly, so then it became Moe the bartender.” (06:08)

3. Code-Switching, Imposter Syndrome, and Identity

• Azaria discusses how, as a teen, he changed his way of speaking to fit in with different groups, ultimately losing clarity on his “real” voice.
  • “By the time I'm 15, I was so genuinely confused as to which one was actually the real me.” (15:32)
• Imposter Syndrome: Both he and Pablo connect this literal “impostor-ness” to the broader sense of acting and the anxieties that accompany it.
  • “Boy, it’s imposter syndrome, they call it. Like I've really faked a lot of people out to get where I am.” (14:05)

4. Character Actor vs. Leading Man

• Reflection on Career Trajectory: Azaria talks about roles in Godzilla, Mystery Men, and Mystery Alaska that didn’t succeed, but ultimately led him to appreciate the joys of disappearing into character rather than chasing stardom.
  • “If any one of those movies had done really well... I might have been able to continue to parlay that into more lead roles... But actually, over time, I've become very grateful because I think I'm kind of happier.” (19:39, 20:22)

5. The Ethics and Impact of Voicing Apu

• The Apu Controversy: Azaria reflects sincerely on the evolution of his understanding, accountability, and decision to stop voicing the character.
  • “I was surprised myself that I came down on no, actually, I think I am participating in a harm here.” (35:10)
  • The key realization: minority communities often had only Apu as representation, turning the character’s quirks into harmful stereotypes.
  • “What if this voice was the only character on television for 20 years representing Jews?... I probably wouldn't love that...that was it. Apu’s what they had, for better or for worse.” (36:54)
• The Importance of Ownership and Conversation: Azaria sees it as his “amends” to keep talking about the issue and not shy away.
  • “I do owe it. It's my amends. I need to keep having the conversation.” (38:50)

6. Finding Wholeness and Sharing Yourself

• Azaria discusses therapy, mentorship, and learning that true artistic value comes from bringing his own humanity to his work, not just mimicry.
  • “Idiot. Really great acting means you're willing to share yourself with people... It has to be you underneath it.” (23:55)
  • His therapist, Phil Stutz, and acting teacher Roy London were instrumental in this growth.

7. On AI and the Irreplaceable Human Factor

• Both Pablo and Hank address the rise of AI in entertainment, wondering what is lost when humans are replaced by machines—even when the machines get “good enough.”
  • “Hopefully, you know, it'll never replace live performance. That's another reason I'm enjoying the Bruce thing. They can't AI me out of that.” (40:23)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On code-switching and identity:
  “By the time I'm 15, I was so genuinely confused as to which one was actually the real me.” — Hank Azaria (15:32)
• On acting and vulnerability:
  “Really great acting means you're willing to share yourself with people. It doesn’t matter if you sound like Chief Wiggum or like Mo or like Bruce or like your grandma or Agador in the Birdcage.” — Hank Azaria (23:55)
• On the decision to stop voicing Apu:
  “At first I thought... then I'll go back to doing the voice and say, I understand, but I’m going to keep doing this. And I was surprised myself that I came down on... no, actually, I think I am participating in a harm here.” — Hank Azaria (35:10)
• On performance anxiety and imposter syndrome:
  “You wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes you're like, what am I doing?... imposter syndrome, they call it.” — Hank Azaria (14:05)

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• [01:00] – Hank describes his Springsteen tribute show genesis and performing nerves.
• [05:00 - 06:10] – Breakdown of Moe’s voice origin, including vocal mashup demonstration.
• [14:05 - 15:42] – Discussion of imposter syndrome, literal code-switching, and young Hank’s search for identity.
• [19:39 - 20:22] – Azaria reflects on his “character actor” trajectory and finding satisfaction in his niche.
• [30:25 - 38:50] – In-depth conversation about the Apu controversy, representation, accountability, and Azaria’s process of change.
• [39:55 - 41:33] – On AI, the human factor in performance, and Hank’s live acoustic Springsteen tribute (culminates in a stripped-down “Jungleland”).

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Closing Highlight

[41:33] – Hank Azaria closes with an acoustic rendition of Bruce Springsteen’s “Jungleland,” channeling his new on-stage persona and affirming the episode’s theme: that only through the union of vulnerability, craft, and conscience does an artist truly “find their voice.”

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Final Thoughts

Pablo Torre’s conversation with Hank Azaria offers rare candor about the personal costs and triumphs of a career in vocal performance. The episode is a portrait of an artist reckoning with change—internally, professionally, and culturally—and underscores the power of self-examination, accountability, and artistic courage in a rapidly shifting world.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what.

[Hank Azaria]

This sound is as we take our stand down and jungle lay hand right after this ad.

[Pablo Torre]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings. What's your regimen for? You're coming off of band practice so I appreciate you just been singing like.

[Hank Azaria]

Bruce for four hours. You know, almost as long as Bruce sings you.

[Pablo Torre]

You don't do like some fancy herbal tea honey.

[Hank Azaria]

I have some spray that's like ginger based, that helps. I have like a gargle that supposedly clears out your throat, which I occasionally bust out vocal warmups. I've had to take singing seriously, which I never had before. I'll be 61 in April. I turned 60 last April, which was too big a birthday to ignore, try as I might. And it felt depressing to do nothing, but I couldn't decide what to do. I'm not really a party guy anymore as I'm coming up on 19 years sober. So I don't know how I came to this, but I was like, you know what might be fun is most of my friends are Springsteen fans. What if I throw a huge party, which is very uncharacteristic of me. Tell my friends that I've got a Springsteen tribute band coming, but don't tell them that I'm going to be the frontman for it. So I called it like a reverse surprise party, which it was. I pulled it all like no one knew I except my wife and like four other people that I was cooking this up and a band, one of whom is here today and for months worked this impression up and created a band. My son's jazz piano teacher ended up he was in a Genesis cover band. I said if I want to do like a Springsteen version of that, could you throw that together? And he said sure. 1, 2, 3. By the night of my party I had over practiced to the point where I had to do a cortisone. I take cortisone the day of and I was so nervous that I actually threw up from nerves. I've never thrown up from nerves in my life as a performer. But I did that day in my party I had a friend was a big baseball player back in high school and then it went so well. We'll be got a lot bunch of gigs in May, we're full blown touring now.

[Pablo Torre]

Alright, so I should just clarify that the reason I have invited Hank Azaria into our studio as a stop on his tour and the whole reason I find the guy so fascinating is not because I'm a fan of Bruce Springsteen, although I am. And it's not because Hank is a huge sports fan, by the way, although he is. The reason I've invited Hank Azaria here is because he is a living, breathing complication of the word voice as a synonym for identity. Because normally when we say that someone has found their voice, what we're really saying is that they found themselves. But Hank's superpower is that he has created this whole self city of voices that he can control on command. From Police Chief Wiggum to Apu, the manager of the Kwik E Mart, who we'll discuss, to Mo, the bartender, we're talking about more than 100 characters for the Simpsons over four decades and beyond. But now, at age 60, Hank Azaria is relearning how to sing.

[Hank Azaria]

Chief Wiggum doesn't sound great singing. Nobody cares. Has to be just funny and semi, semi inky, you know, Same for Mo. People ain't listening to Mo's songs, you know, because they. It's got a beautiful melodic quality, you know, I'm saying Pablo Rey, and I do.

[Pablo Torre]

Hank is articulating an exceedingly human concern at a time when artificial intelligence, incidentally, has promised to render his superpower obsolete. And so what I wanted to find out here today was how the single most talented voice actor of his generation is choosing now which voices to embrace and why.

[Hank Azaria]

I've been imitating the way Bruce talks since I'm a teenager. And the story I tell is, you know, a lot of my vocal impressions as a young man came out of hero worship, including this one you're listening to. There were others, for example, my voice a little blown out. But young Al Pacino, you know, not. Not older Al, who talked, talks like this. Young Al, Godfather Al Dog Day Afternoon out. I'm dying here. Everybody's coming down on me here. That Al, robbing the bank's a federal offense. They got me on kidnapping, armed robbery. They're gonna bury me, man. Now, fun fact, you take young Al Pacino on one end and Bruce Springsteen on the other, right in the middle there. He's Motorbike. He's a mashup of them two peoples. The Simpsons audition. I was doing a play in LA using the Pacino, the young Al voice. I was playing a drug dealer, and I talking like this, and I auditioned like this for Mo, and they said, can you make it gravelly? So I just sprinkled some Springsteen in there, and that became Motorbike, and I got the job.

[Pablo Torre]

Apparently, you discovered Mo in the Audition? At that moment, yes.

[Hank Azaria]

Actually, in my mind that was going to be young Al Pacino. They said make it gravelly, so then it became Motorbike. Did you hold a grudge against Montgomery Burns? No. All right, maybe I did, but I didn't shoot him. Checks out. Okay, sir, you're free to go. Good. Cause I got a hot date tonight. Odd date. Dinner with friends. Dinner alone, Watching TV alone. All right, I'm gonna sit at home and ogle the ladies in the Victoria's Secret catalog. See Us catalog. Now. Would you unhook this already, please? I don't deserve this kind of shabby treatment.

[Pablo Torre]

But then to continue just like, to fill out the roster. Is that a common template of like, okay, they want this. I got that. Let's judge it up a bit. And you get often.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah, sometimes you're ready with what you know you think would work. And that's what stays. Professor Frank was an impression of. I'm not sure you're aware of this, Pablo, since you're a young person, but Jerry Lewis was the original Nutty professor back in the 50s. And he sounded like this. This was the voice of the Nutty Professor. I loved it as a child and I was ready with that. And they liked it. Studied traffic patterns and found that drivers move the fastest through yellow lights. So now we just have the red and yellow lights. I used to tell people that there was a Nutty professor before Eddie Murphy. And now when I tell the kids that, they say, and who is Eddie Murphy?

[Pablo Torre]

But that.

[Hank Azaria]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is a thing that just stuck in my brain for 20 years. Yeah, that's you.

[Hank Azaria]

That script, Jerry Lewis. That's actually just very often would make ridiculous noises like that. So that's just purely imitating Jerry Lewis's nonsense.

[Pablo Torre]

But Bruce having seen him, I saw his one man show on Broadway. I saw him at the Garden, however many moons ago. Now he is an ultra marathoner.

[Hank Azaria]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Have you. Have you met Bruce?

[Hank Azaria]

Twice, Briefly. I tell that story in concert as part of growing up. It spam a lot. One night was a knock on my dressing room door after the show. I opened it and staying there alone is Bruce Springsteen.

[Pablo Torre]

No one had prepped you for this?

[Hank Azaria]

No, no, no. I don't know how I still. To this day, I don't know how that exactly happened. We chatted for a while. He kind of gave me his review of the show of Spamalot. Yes. He's like, man, I love that show. You know, it's kind of out. Started out kind of silly and funny and then Became like this celebration of comedy. And then, you know, the music kicked in. It was like a celebration of musicals. And by the end, I was really moved. You know, it's like the celebration of life and love. Such a Bruce interpretation of it. He talked long enough for me to get up the nerve to tell him what he really meant to me. And I said, you know, Bruce, I got to tell you, your music has meant so much to me. Not just your music, but your talks, as we call them, the monologues you do in. In concert. I had some very, very lonely, hard times as a teenager. I was 17 or 18. Oh, man, he used to hate it. And we got to where we fight so much that I spend a lot of time out of the house. And those talks, they really encouraged me to be a creative person when nobody else could or would. I think it's true to say that I wouldn't be standing here backstage at the Schubert Theater talking to you if not for you. That is what I said, Pablo. That is not how I said it. Here's how it.

[Pablo Torre]

The court record will reflect those were the words.

[Hank Azaria]

Those words. That was the text, but here was the delivery. Bruce, I love your music. It meant so much for me growing up. I had to worry hard times. And if not for you, especially the talks. I sounded like a goose on acid. And he. He looked at me very kindly after I finished my goose monologue and went, yeah, all right, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. Kind of gave me a fatherly pat on his shoulder. Within 20 seconds, he was gone. And I don't blame him at all. I found out after that that, you know, he doesn't. He doesn't. He just wants to be a normal guy, you know, he doesn't love that fanboy, insane energy. And I don't blame him. Years later, I'm at that show you mentioned his show.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hank Azaria]

Guy comes up to me at intermission and says, you want to say hi to Bruce afterwards? I'm like, of course. I'm with my wife, Kate. I'm like, I'm not going to blow it this time. I'm going to be calm and cool. And we go downstairs, and you've been.

[Pablo Torre]

Waiting for a redo a mulligan on me.

[Hank Azaria]

I didn't ever thought it would come up, but here was my chance. And I'm squeezing my wife's hand, I'm doing deep breathing exercises, and he and Patty Scialfa, his wife, are coming down the receiving line, and I swear this is true. He gets to us. And before he can even say hello. I say, bruce, you played Growing Up. I love growing up all the year. The lyrics to Growing up are on my. My senior page of my high school yearbook. I could show you the yearbook. I wish I brought the yearbook. And he looked at me as if to say, aren't you the nut that this up the last time? Same shoulder pat. And he was go. My friend calls it Bruce juice. It's the insanity that overtakes you when you see Bruce Springsteen. Certainly true of me.

[Pablo Torre]

So he's always been that guy to you?

[Hank Azaria]

Always. Since I was about 12, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So this. In other words, this is, on some level, for the people gathered at your 60th birthday party. Those who've known you the longest were not totally surprised.

[Hank Azaria]

Oh, no.

[Pablo Torre]

That this was gonna be.

[Hank Azaria]

I'd say most of my friends are right with me on that Bruce mania. But, you know, part of why I developed the show is I knew that about maybe half or third of the audience would not be such big Bruce fans. So I felt like I should introduce the songs, give context for them, tell them what they meant to me, or give background of the. Of the song itself. And that kind of created these and do it as Bruce. And I wasn't sure whether that would work. I'm like, this is kind of weird, but for me, it's kind of natural, taking on a vocal character and sort of giving it some kind of life. That's sort of my gig. So. So that's what I did, and it worked.

[Pablo Torre]

Hank, I. I dare say that my fandom of you, I am constantly trying to negotiate. Like, when does the compliment I want to pay also sound like an insult on some level? Well, you're kind of a human jukebox.

[Hank Azaria]

Oh.

[Pablo Torre]

You're kind of just like, squeeze toy. I just want to keep on, like, poking and prodding. You're. Are you, like, just a new version of an Elvis impersonator now? Like, kind?

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to be kind and polite, but also, like, plumb the depths of what you've considered about this being the thing you're devoting the 60s. Your 60s to.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah, it's a good question. I've asked myself the same question several times because, you know, parto doing anything, I'm sure you experience it. You wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes you're like, what am I doing? Like, you grew up with you, right? So, you know, I. Boy, it's imposter syndrome, they call it. Like, I've really faked a lot of people out to get where I am.

[Pablo Torre]

But when you say the term imposter syndrome.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like there's a bit more literalism.

[Hank Azaria]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

In the sense that you are, again, not to be pejorative, a professional imposter.

[Hank Azaria]

Yes. Which goes deep. As much as I have plastic vocal cords and an ability to mimic, that drove my, you know, career choice. Equally at play was this, you know, budding alcoholic, very insecure person who was desperate to be anybody but himself. And that was equally at play. That kind of drove the obsession to not just do this, but do it extremely to the point. I mean, when I was a teenager, around the time I was loving Bruce, you know, all you want to do as a teenager is fit in. So the tough kids in my neighborhood talk like this. And I sounded like them with them. And as far as they knew, this is what I sounded like. And the jock sounded a different way, and I was a pretty good athlete, and I sounded a different way with them. And the burnout kids, you know, were a little mellower, and I sounded another way with them. And this is before I figured out I can make a living doing that. But I. By the time I'm 15, I was so genuinely confused as to which one was actually the real me.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Hank Azaria]

That it actually freaked me out. Like, very, like, panic attack freaked me out.

[Pablo Torre]

I think, hopefully others relate to what you just said the way that I do, which is to say that is a version of code switching is a more modern term for it. It's also trying to be liked by different groups that you're not naturally a member of.

[Hank Azaria]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so for you, there's this thing of, again, to use just another phrase, like, everyone's trying to find their voice.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't know if it has a.

[Hank Azaria]

Different meaning for me. And, yeah, with this, you know, I would say that what drives me professionally a lot is the fear of what. It's like, oh, my God, I'm going to be some cheesy Elvis impersonator or whatever actor equivalents there are to that. You, like, shoot up in the middle of, like, oh, my God, I'm going to do this poorly, and I'm going to look like an idiot. I mean, you know, like shooting the birdcage. There were a lot of nights where I shot up in bed, like, what am I doing? I'm doing an impression of my maternal grandmother in a bikini. What is happening? Oh, hello. What did you think look like Lucy's stunt double?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, what was happening in that case was one of the great roles of all time.

[Hank Azaria]

But before we knew that it was really like. And it was one of my first big jobs. I had no clue. You know, it was really, even before I got that, I used to wake up in the middle of the night like that just for even attempting to try to be an actor. I'm like, who am I to do this? What am I doing? This is just nuts.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, if the origin story of your superpower was some level of fear.

[Hank Azaria]

Well, that was a big part of it.

[Pablo Torre]

But. But then also, by the way, sort of wound up with some amount of people pleasing. If I can just connect some of the dots here.

[Hank Azaria]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

You wanting to be somebody who was identified most prominently as not your actual self. I mean, look, that is also acting, right?

[Hank Azaria]

It's a good definition of a character actor.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, so that's the next seemingly pejorative term I wanted to ask you about was what does it mean to be a character actor to you? Because I've heard it used in ways that are not complimentary while also being obviously the thing that many of us will leave the movie theater praising that guy that just did that.

[Hank Azaria]

It's a double edged sword. I mean, often it means like, oh, you're not the star, you're not the lead actor, you're not box office. You know, and it can mean that. It can also mean the complimentary version, which is, my goodness, you really transformed yourself.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Hank Azaria]

Martin Short once interviewed me as Jiminy Glick.

[Hari Kondabolu]

Okay, so I don't have a clue who's coming up, but I can't imagine.

[Pablo Torre]

It'Ll be anything less than a hoot.

[Hari Kondabolu]

Adrian, do what you do.

[Hank Azaria]

And here's how he put it. He went, well, Hank Azaria, it's just so wonderful to talk to you. You just disappear into all these roles and. And now that I meet you in person, I can see that it's no great loss. So there's an element of that, you know, to put it in like brutal, bottom line, box office Hollywood terms. You get an opportunity or two or three if you hit a certain level as an actor to, you know, hit the next level or two. And the two or three movies that I did that were that opportunity tanked, they didn't do well. Godzilla. The hell is that? Mystery Men. Seeing as it's your first night and all, I suppose I'll fork give you. If you fork get. And a movie called Mystery Alaska. The Mystery Team has a shot, right? It's all movies that I was, I starred in or had a big enough role where. And I think if maybe anyone or those of Those movies had done really well. I might have been able to continue to parlay that into more lead roles and this and that.

[Pablo Torre]

Are you suggesting, by the way, that if Godzilla was a bigger hit, we would never have gotten along. Came Polly the hippopotamus.

[Hank Azaria]

He is not one going Kulbin, I am a hippo. Norway Jose. So he tried to paint the stripe on himself to be like the zebra, but he fooled no one. Then he tried to put this spot on his skin to be like the leopard, but everyone know he is a hippo. So at certain point, he look himself in the mirror and he just say, hey, I am a hippopotamus and there is nothing I can do about it. It's difficult to say. That was another hard accent for me. Took me three months to get French accent. Was difficult to work at it. My friend Ben Stiller, God bless him, he's employed me a lot of times.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, you're also again in. In the dodgeball instructional video as Patches.

[Hank Azaria]

Who just remember the five Ds of dodgeball. Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge. A cross between Ripton, who is old Patches, and Clark Gable. That was the mashup there. But, you know, you're right. If I had become a more major movie star, I might not have done those. I might not have because I would have been busy doing something else. It's like, no, I can't take a small role like that. And actually, over time, I've become very grateful because I think I'm kind of happier. It's more me to adopt a voice and a Persona and kind of disappear in the role. And it's no great loss. And I. I really kind of love it. Of course, I have my day job, which pays me so well that I don't. You know, I can. I can do that.

[Pablo Torre]

I do want to stress, as I continue to do the thing where I say, here's something that people say while hoping that you engage with it. And I am free from having lobbed it.

[Hank Azaria]

It's an old reporter trait. It's not the most well aware of.

[Pablo Torre]

It, the most subtle grenade.

[Hank Azaria]

What do you say to people who say you're an. It's like, well, what are you saying?

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. Just degrees away from actual responsibility for my questions. But I was going to ask about whether you draw a distinction between these voices being instruments to play or personalities to inhabit and deepen and. And love.

[Hank Azaria]

It's both. It started out as pure mimicry with a deep love of what I was imitating. I was really raised by the television set. And so to, in a way, was a way to keep my best friends with me. You know, my love of sports became. Because the guys who announced the game, you know, were like my uncles. Nobody else was spending that kind of time with me. Nobody else was describing to me what the hell was going on at the Mets game. And I really appreciated those guys. And that became Jim Brockmire. Eventually, my wife Lucy, she was wearing a strap on, and she was plowing our neighbor, Bob Greenwald. And folks, I do mean right in the ass. Fastball misses. Just low count goes for three and two. So started out as mimicry. One of my main heroes was Peter Sellers, who was Inspector Clouzeux in the original Pink Panther film. The. I would, of course, tell you more, but it would be safer for you if I did not. Dr. Strangelove, one of my favorite movies. A crazy German scientist combined with a spirit of bold curiosity for the adventure ahead. His ability to take a weird voice like that, a silly voice, but give it unbelievable humanity and specificity, physically and otherwise. Really, I don't think I've ever achieved what the level of Peter Sellers, but that's what I'm always shooting at. Like, can I take a voice and then fill it in? I Also, in my mid-20s, I was already on the Simpsons, but I went to an acting class for a guy named Roy London, who was a genius acting teacher. He's passed away many years, but he didn't let me do a voice or be funny for about four years in class. He said, you can do that. You need to now put yourself in these roles. Which was very hard for me because I wanted to be anybody but myself. And he was like, idiot. Really great acting means you're willing to share yourself with people. It doesn't matter if you sound like Chief Waggon or like Mo or like Bruce or like your grandma or Agador in the Birdcage. It doesn't matter what you sound like. It has to be you underneath it. And that. That time in that class is what made the physicality and the. And the. The ability to take a run at what Peter Sellers was. Was doing.

[Pablo Torre]

For me, physicality is an interesting word for somebody who in many of these cases is not visually seen.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But it is clearly something that when you. When you talk about, okay, how can you tell that there's real Hank in there?

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you describe that for people who are just hearing you often?

[Hank Azaria]

Well, I did this piece recently for the New York Times about AI and can we. Are we replaceable and part of the point I was making was you have to really act and physicalize. Even just to make a vocal performance, you have to fully act it. For me, you know, I remember when I took that class with Roy, I was already Chief Weggam, but I started thinking about things like, well, how would I handle, like, being a beat cop? Like, for real? Like, is that how I would really approach it? What if I really would his bartender? And I actually used to bartend. I joked that if I didn't become motor bartender, I would have remained Hank the bartender, which is probably true. But I started just getting a little more personal, and a lot of that was just having faith, that trust that if I showed people who I was, they would find it interesting at all, which I did not believe growing up. So that was. And I had to look kind of go to the heat that. That acting teacher sent me to therapy because he would send. Have you heard of this guy Phil Stutz? You know.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, sure. The. The. The Netflix.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah, the Jonah Hill.

[Pablo Torre]

The Jonah Hill.

[Hank Azaria]

And the idea of being in sync.

[Pablo Torre]

With the shadow, it's a sense of wholeness.

[Hank Azaria]

Wholeness means I don't need anything else.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm whole the way I am.

[Hank Azaria]

And that's very freeing. Phil was my therapist for years. He talks like this. He called me schmuck. Schmuck.

[Pablo Torre]

Listen, that was a term of affection.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah. Kind of affection. Also because he got sick of my whining. Yeah, he was. He was hilarious. You sitting there, you whined like, Roy. I was having this dual crisis. I would freeze in my performances because I would not trust that, you know, in acting class, I mean, I would not trust that what I was doing was interesting. And Roy wouldn't let me do a voice or be funny. So I'm like, I'm nowhere. I'm nothing. And Roy couldn't break it through, so he sent me this. He would send people to Stutz who needed deeper work under the hood than just an acting class could address. And I was also freezing in auditions. All of a sudden, I would, like, literally freeze. I couldn't. I couldn't do it. So it's becoming a problem. So, you know, I would whine at Phil studs for, like, 15, 20 minutes, and he'd go, yeah, all right. Shut the up. Your problem is your baby. And then he would fill it in with a rather brilliant explanation what he meant by that. And he would say, like, because, look, if I told you that I was having these problems, you know, you think it wasn't big a Deal. But because it's happening to you, you think it's the end of the world, you know, and he got me through that auditioning thing and that it did take both of those men and a lot of work to sort of work through it personally and then professionally, like, I just have to be able to. To say things to people as myself and trust that that's, you know, going to be enough.

[Pablo Torre]

I've come to appreciate, over time, certainly in the realm of.

[Hank Azaria]

Of.

[Pablo Torre]

Of comedians, that as much as a. A civilian might worry about, okay, I don't want to have this guy, you know, just like, you know, pull string, tell me jokes, make me laugh. I have found that there is a certain compulsiveness to wanting the people around you to have a good time, to enjoy you. How much of that needed to be broken down? Or no, is that just something that you are at peace with? Like, this is. This is actually something that makes people happy. And what is a greater gift in life than simply that?

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah, that's been a journey, too. It's a good question, Pablo. Part of recovery, the kind of alcohol codependency recovery you go through is you learn that there are certain archetypal roles that dysfunctional families will place you in. And there's only four. There's really only four. This is an oversimplification, but there's, you know, hero, good kid. There's scapegoat, black sheep. There's comic relief mascot, which I was. And there's lost child who either runs away or kind of disappears in the room. You don't see them quiet. I was the funny one, which was fun and funny. The dark side of that is I was. There was such tension in the house that I had to respond in some way. Made me very nervous. And if people were laughing and cheered up, you know, maybe I. I'd get fed and, you know, people would calm down. I also really had this, Became an adult, believing that everybody's mood was my responsibility, you know, so it was less about, hey, like me, I'm funny, and more about, are you all right? I can't tolerate if you're not. Okay, Selfishly, weirdly, because then you can't take care of me, you know? Right. So I had to undo that, which wasn't simple, was a journey, and then kind of come back around to seeing the ability to make people laugh is a tremendous gift, and it's a joy, and why not share it with folks, but not feel responsible that you must. You know.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to also just pay you a Compliment that is I consider earned, which is a friend of mine who I've not seen in a long time, but. Hari Kandabalu.

[Hank Azaria]

Yes. Hurry. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Did the. The film the Problem with Apu?

[Hank Azaria]

Yes.

[Hari Kondabolu]

I've had a great career filled with laughter, critical acclaim, and me shaking the hands of many famous white men. Until television. I should be completely happy. But there's still one man who haunts me. Apu Nahasa Pima Petalon.

[Hank Azaria]

Serving the customer is merriment enough for me.

[Pablo Torre]

The argument for those uninitiated is simply that the character of Apu, which we all grew up, I mean, we being non. I would say South Asians, but even me, I'm Asian American. Like, I didn't really think right. Twice about it.

[Hank Azaria]

Well, neither did I.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that became clear.

[Hari Kondabolu]

Apu, a cartoon character voiced by Hank Azaria, a white guy. A white guy doing an impression of a white guy making fun of my father. If I saw Hank Azaria do that voice at a party, I would kick the.

[Hank Azaria]

Out of him.

[Pablo Torre]

But then your desire to think deeply about it, about the ways in which that character ended up making people's lives, however stochastically, as they say, however inadvertently worse.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And that was real to lots and lots of people in America.

[Hank Azaria]

Yeah.

[Hari Kondabolu]

How many of you were bullied in any capacity as a child?

[Hank Azaria]

We raised hands. Yeah.

[Hari Kondabolu]

Raising hands. We'll do the hands thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Okay.

[Hari Kondabolu]

Now, how many had to deal with, like, being called Apu or that being referenced?

[Pablo Torre]

How you responded to that is, frankly, a case study that I don't think anybody else has followed necessarily.

[Hank Azaria]

But I might be a unicorn, but.

[Pablo Torre]

But is. But is like, the model for what to do when it feels like, am I being canceled? Am I responsible? Am I a victim? Am I the bully? How did you approach that entire saga.

[Hank Azaria]

Programmatically by the time that happened? Any crisis in my life, you respond is the right word. Because in your life as an addict and as a codependent person, it's a lot of reacting, a lot of reacting. And some of the reacting can kill you, like drinking yourself to death or whatever. So I had to let anybody in. Recovery has to learn to respond. And that requires, you know, feeling your feelings, taking the pause, as they say in aa. Learning that when you're kind of most upset is probably the. The biggest cue to shush privately and publicly share with folks you trust how you're feeling, what you're going through. So that's how I approach that. And what that boiled down to, what Hurry presented to me was essentially Do I keep doing that voice or not? That was the dilemma. That's what it boiled down to.

[Hari Kondabolu]

All I'm saying is that the Simpsons is like your racist grandfather. You love your grandfather. He's been there your whole life and has taught you so many valuable things. But he still does racist stuff regularly. So if he can't change, maybe it's time he dies and you can just remember the best things about him.

[Hank Azaria]

In order to answer that question, do I keep doing this voice or not? Required a deep dive. It wasn't like, well, let me take a week and look into this. It was probably two or three years because we all just froze at the Simpsons. We had no idea what to do. The character just stopped saying anything, and it became a deep dive into, well, is this racist? Does Hollywood have a tradition of doing this in one way or another? Am I part of that? The aforementioned Peter Sellers, you know, that voice was based on a Peter Sellers performance from a movie called the party in the mid-60s where he played an Indian guy named Harundi V. Bakshi in Brown Face. What's the difference between silly French voice or Dr. Strangchlaaf? Silly German voice and honey viaks? You're rather silly Indian boys. And it's a question I still get asked, say that people will say comments on, like, still to this day, why can you. Why can you do Luigi? And that's not offensive. Why can you talk like Cletus? And that's not a problem. But you can't do Apu. Right. And honestly, at first I thought, let me look into this, and then I'll go back to doing the voice and say, I understand, but I'm going to keep doing this. And I. I was surprised myself that I came down on. No, actually, I think I am participating in a harm here.

[Pablo Torre]

What was the thing that you discovered that tipped the scale?

[Hank Azaria]

Well, look, I'm not. I'm not a hero, by the way. I got dragged to this, okay? And I. I couldn't get out of it because I had this professional public decision to make. Yeah, there were a few things that were linchpin moments in that decision. I'd say the main thing was when hate crimes were perpetrated against southern Asian people, a lot of times they were just called Apu. Became a slur when. When convenience store guys were stabbed or shot or robbed, you know, especially when guys who were in that, you know, those more stereotypical professions. Taxi driver, they were. They were hated on. Physically, I'm called Apu. That wasn't great. That that means it got away from us. Something got away. We didn't. Of course, we didn't mean it that way. Yes. And we're not to blame for people turning it into that kind of hate. But we did tee it up. It was interesting. I did. I did a movie once, the Very Talented Vocal Guy, another talented vocal guy. And he would do sort of a Jewish voice, kind of a Jackie Mason voice. He knew I was Jewish, and he'd kid around with me this way. And this was a person who is famous for voices. And you took. Didn't bother me at all as a Jewish person that he would do this voice. But then I started thinking, well, what if this voice was the only apple, was the only character on television or any American pop culture for 20 years? That is.

[Pablo Torre]

That is the key part.

[Hank Azaria]

That was it. Apu's what they had, for better or for worse. And I started thinking, well, what if this was the only voice in the American pop culture? Jews. And every time, you know, people just, hey, do you talk like this? Your father talks like this? I probably wouldn't love that. However, even if that were the case, which it isn't, even if it were, I am a white guy. So when I walk around outside, unless I talk like this, nobody would assume that they talk this way. But Hari, no matter how American he is or sounds, appears Indian and will get Apu crap if somebody decides to give it to him. And that Apu crap isn't just, oh, it's a cartoon. Oh, it's a silly voice. There's all this other stereotyping and things that have teeth in them.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Hank Azaria]

That affects people of color in this country. So while Apu might not be the most important thing in the world, it's a window into quite important things.

[Pablo Torre]

And I should just note here that Hank Azaria did not appear in Hari's movie, which came out in 2017, but the two of them did eventually sit down together on NPR on code switch in 2023.

[Hank Azaria]

What happens after a public call out for comedians Hari Kondabolu and Hank Azaria? The answer has a lot to do with race.

[Hari Kondabolu]

But I'm, like, totally sick of talking about it. The story that's more interesting is the after Hank, like, you know, his journey to here, you know, what is the difference between a person of color calling something out versus a white person calling something out? Like that, to me, is interesting. You know, it's this discussion of white fragility, of the Internet, of communication, of conversation, that the rest of the stuff to me is like, I'm so done with it. I'm done.

[Hank Azaria]

Like you can refer them to me. Harish, I would gladly. I'm not even kidding, because I do owe it. It's my amends. I need to keep having the conversation. I owe it. Yeah, it's part of my amends.

[Pablo Torre]

And so at this point, it just feels safe to say that if and when we do replace Hank Azaria with AI because it is cheaper and easier and a lot faster than discovering, you know, the next flawed human being who can create more than 100 voices and also be responsive to the genuine concerns of a person of color in America, and then also want to create a one man show in a book and a whole tour in his 60s where he magically transforms into his childhood hero. What we're going to lose, at the very least is. Is truly one of our most scarce resources at this point. A conscience. What I wonder about with AI, right? Are we underrating what it means to marvel at the fact that actually a human is doing this, even if the human's goal is to make you think that it's not that human?

[Hank Azaria]

They can't do it yet. They might soon. They really might. Most people might not care. Meaning, sure, it's not quite as great as human beings doing it, but close enough. You know, these days we're so distracted with devices, people aren't watching one screen anyway. So it might be just good enough while you're watching your phone and glancing up at whatever else you're glancing at for a performance that what do you care whether it's AI or not? And hopefully, you know, it'll never replace live performance. That's another reason I'm enjoying the Bruce thing. They can't AI me out of that.

[Pablo Torre]

Towards the end here. Can I do the very. I. I guess this is the biggest heat check I will have as an interviewer today. Could I convince you to do some Bruce for us at the end here?

[Hank Azaria]

You mean sing a song?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Hank Azaria]

Let's put it this way, if it doesn't work out so good, we're gonna cut this part, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely.

[Hank Azaria]

Never done this before. Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

This is again, a real heat check for me to say. By the way, what I really need at the end of today's show is for Alden Harris McCoy to come in with his acoustic guitar and for Hank to wear his coat so he can approximate Bruce Springsteen.

[Hank Azaria]

His little song called Jungle Land, very stripped down. What? A ranger has had a home coming in Harlem late last night and a magic rat drove his sleek machine over the jersey state line? Barefoot girl sitting on the hood of a Dodge Drinking warm beer in the soft summer rain? The rat pulls in the town Rolls up his pants? Together they take us stabbing romance and disappear down Flamingo Lane? What a maximum lawman run Down Flamingo Chasing a rat and a barefoot girl? And the kids around there look just like shadows they're always quiet, holding hail? But from the churches to the jails Tonight all is silence in the world as we take our stand down. And Jungle Lamb. How's that?

[Pablo Torre]

Alden Harris McCoy on guitar, Hank Azaria on vocals. Incredible. All I have to say at the end here is Hank, thank you for being you, man.

[Hank Azaria]

Thanks for having me here. Thanks from all of us.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out A Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.