← Pablo Torre Finds Out
Pablo Torre Finds Out
Bring Hersh Home: Why a Soccer Super-Fan Taken Hostage by Hamas Is Still a 'Ray of Hope' in Israel
00:42:26
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- [00:23]
Pablo Torre
Amos Varshat, thank you for being here. Thank you for helping us report a story that is unlike any other story we have done on this show. I was hesitant to do this episode, not because I didn't think it was, like, genuinely, genuinely fascinating, but because I'm always mindful of the ways in which sometimes, you know, sports outlets, they just want to shoehorn sports into, like the serious news story.
- [00:49]
Amos Varshat
Absolutely.
- [00:50]
Pablo Torre
And sometimes it just feels both flimsy and forced in terms of the connection that they're drawing. This one, though, does not feel that way to me.
- [00:59]
Amos Varshat
I've reported on the way the sports and politics interact for a long time. And just for me, as someone trying to understand the news, you know, I've always felt like it's a way to get closer to the way people actually interact with the news.
- [01:13]
Pablo Torre
Yes.
- [01:14]
Amos Varshat
With this one, with Israel and these soccer teams that we're going to talk about. It's just what was on my mind.
- [01:23]
Pablo Torre
Okay. So this has been on my mind for a very long time now. This basic dilemma. What are we supposed to do on our show, which is technically a sports show, about the biggest story in the world? We are a newsroom. I say this tongue in cheekily sometimes, and I wanted to actually think about how we're supposed to touch the thing that pretty much nobody, if they don't have to, wants to touch in public. And I get why this is the most generous version of this motive, I suppose. But lots of people just don't know enough. It is a complicated story. It is sad, it is controversial in the most obvious ways. And so I get it. But I've been reading the work of Amos Barshad for more than a decade now. Amos is a writer who was at Grantland, the Washington Post, the New York Times Magazine, all these places. And he is now working for the Lever, an independent reader supported news site@levernews.com where you can go read a companion version of the story that we assigned Amos to report for us here today because of all the topics he has covered, the one that stuck out to me ever since I first read it, his reporting from there 10 years ago was Israel. And specifically it was about the Israeli government and this administration which is going to dictate which direction this current war goes next. Yeah. So I want to set the scene here. When did you realize that the war between Israel and Hamas, which started, of course, with the terrorist attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7, when did you realize that that was actually a sports story?
- [03:14]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, you know, at first the news was coming out. And I was just trying to make sense of it and wasn't thinking at all about a way in for me. I have reported from Israel in the past, but, you know, I live here in New York and was just reading the news, trying to understand.
- [03:30]
Pablo Torre
Hamas unleashed a ferocious attack over the weekend that seemed to come from everywhere, raining deadly rockets into residential streets and sending militant fighters across the Gaza border, where they murdered and kidnapped Israeli civilians. Hamas is warning it will execute the hostages and get kidnapped over the weekend.
- [03:51]
Nerius Smith
If Israel continues to retaliate in Gaza.
- [03:56]
Amos Varshat
You know, there are moments in this life literally when the pure, unadulterated evil is unleashed on this world. It was a few days after that that I saw a video clip. A group of soccer fans ran through a hospital in Tel Aviv and they are supporters of this team, Bayttar Jerusalem. Their supporters group is called La Familia and they are a notorious organization in Israel. There's a minister that has in the past suggested declaring them a terrorist organization for various reasons. What happened was they had basically come across a rumor that a Hamas fighter was being treated at this hospital in Tel Aviv and they decided to take matters into their own hands. I did speak to a Dr. Yaram Klein, who works at, at the hospital in Tel Aviv.
- [04:46]
Pablo Torre
They stormed the hospital on bikes. You know, young people dress in black on motorcycle. People might confuse them for a storm by the Hamas. At the time, there was no Hamas in the hospital. So they actually invaded the hospital and went from floor to floor to see if there are no terrorists.
- [05:18]
Nerius Smith
There was none.
- [05:19]
Pablo Torre
And the shouting went quickly from death.
- [05:25]
Amos Varshat
To the terrorists quickly to like within a minute, death to Arabs.
- [05:34]
Pablo Torre
And within seconds, death to left wing people. Jews. I knew so little coming into this story that you've reported here about how fanatical some fans in Israel are about their soccer teams. So just explain Baytar Jerusalem. Like, where do they fit into, like the political, cultural landscape in Israel?
- [06:02]
Amos Varshat
This is the Israeli domestic soccer league, the top flight league that we're talking about, which is, you know, relatively minor league. And Betar Jerusalem is one of the traditional powerhouses of the league, is also known as the team of the right wing.
- [06:18]
Pablo Torre
I want to actually understand how extreme this faction is. Like La Familia, you call them?
- [06:22]
Amos Varshat
Yep.
- [06:23]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, that alone, I'm like, why are they called La Familia?
- [06:26]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, you know, I spoken to a researcher, kind of an expert in La Familia, and she said that it's kind of what you'd assume they're trying to sound like, first of all, like they're from Europe. So the ultras, right?
- [06:38]
Pablo Torre
Like the hardcore. Like, European.
- [06:40]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:41]
Pablo Torre
Soccer fans.
- [06:42]
Amos Varshat
I'm sure we've all kind of seen footage of the guys who are bringing the flares, bringing the banners, leading the chants, the drums, you know, kind of associated with Italy and Spain. So they pick this name that kind of sounds to them, you know, Italian. Their politics are very, very clear. You know, there are other groups in the world, in world soccer that, you know, flirt with the far right or borrow symbols. Like, these guys aren't flirting, they're running around chanting, death to the Arabs. This is the Jewish state. I hate all the Arabs. Like, there's no. No confusion.
- [07:16]
Pablo Torre
But I want to go back to the time you spent about a decade ago in Israel, as you're reporting on Betar and La Familia in person, which seems horrifying to contemplate at this point, but you, in that time, in that place, what did you see when it came to just their position in the political superstructure?
- [07:38]
Amos Varshat
2013, I was in Israel reporting this story for Grantland. Beitar had signed some players that were Muslim. That led to the fans, specifically La Familia, to revolt. They were so angry by this that they set fire to the trophy room at the Beitar headquarters. The confusing thing was that the team hadn't signed, you know, Israeli Arabs. They had signed two guys from Chechnya.
- [08:08]
Pablo Torre
Right. They're not. At least they're not arrows.
- [08:10]
Amos Varshat
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. They think they're being cute or clever, threading the needle. La Familia, you know, effectively makes it very clear that they will not have this. Multiple owners over the years of Baytar have tried to push back on La Familia, have tried to push back on this radical fan base.
- [08:29]
Pablo Torre
Does La Familia listen to what the team, It's. It seems like they have their own pretty distinct.
- [08:37]
Amos Varshat
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, the 2013 was basically a huge victory for La Familia. They managed to get these guys to leave by the end of the next season. To this date, there has not been an Arab or a Muslim player at. At Baytar. So, you know, they're actually dictating, like, who can play and who can't. You know, it's not a. It's not a subtle thing or. Or. Or some sort of a, you know, in the background kind of influence.
- [08:59]
Pablo Torre
And so that influence, though, how has that functioned at a time when the political administration of the State of Israel has also been now leaning rightward, trending directionally in that way?
- [09:12]
Amos Varshat
I mean. Yeah. To come Back to what, you know, we first asked, you know, how is this a sports story? I mean, for me this feels like a reflection of the, of the right wing ruling coalition. Politicians have for, for decades fronted as Bayt Har fans to, to, you know, to gain support, to gain voters.
- [09:30]
Pablo Torre
And as an example, here is the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, declaring his allegiance to Bethar in front of this crowd of flag waving, raucous fans.
- [09:49]
Amos Varshat
There's an implicit connection between certain elements of the right wing coalition and La Familia. You know, to me, La familia have increasingly acted as the street fighters. You know, for the right wing. There's been many protests movements in the last few years in Israel. Most recently was a weekly protest movement against an attempt by the ruling right wing coalition to effectively neuter the Israeli Supreme Court. La Familia acted as like a counter ballast. You know, they were kind of called upon to come out and be the counter protesters. Mostly that involved again chanting horrific things like death to Arabs and some funnier things like where are the of antifa?
- [10:33]
Pablo Torre
Oh man, they're on Twitter. They're on Twitter too.
- [10:35]
Amos Varshat
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. They hate antifa.
- [10:37]
Pablo Torre
You're describing a scene in which this soccer fan base has been conscripted to fight an explicitly political war.
- [10:46]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they, you know, they love it. I mean this is great. You know, it puts them centrally in the conversation and at the same time the, the right wing feel like they have support in the street, you know.
- [10:56]
Pablo Torre
Right.
- [10:56]
Amos Varshat
But there is clear indications that La Familia is seen as kind of a like a strike force or like a little militia, you know, to call forward. And usually when they come out into the street, there's violence. The protesters are injured, Arab bystanders are injured. The person that is central to this story currently is the Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben gvir. Ben gvir, a man one commentator dubbed the David Duke of Israel, is so extreme that he makes our very own Marjorie Taylor Greene and Carrie Lake and Doug Mastriano look like woke leftists.
- [11:34]
Pablo Torre
He is an openly racist anti Arab member of a far, far, far right.
- [11:41]
Nerius Smith
Party that Netanyahu joined with to form his coalition.
- [11:46]
Amos Varshat
He's come in with this ruling right wing coalition. He represents the most radical strain of Jewish supremacy. His background is a defense lawyer for Jewish extremists. He believes in expanding the settler movement. In public, he represents the extremist nature of this ruling coalition. And he is a self described Baytar fan, of course.
- [12:08]
Pablo Torre
In fact, here is Ben Gvir in the middle of a crowd of singing Betar fans on VIDEO arm in army so he has seen soccer be this useful. I mean, I guess both a figurative but also potentially a physical, literal cudgel. To do what to his enemies?
- [12:32]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, I mean, he has used it to become, you know, a populist figure to make himself seem like a man of the people. In the old days, politicians used to go to the market in Jerusalem, you know, shake hands and kiss babies and do all that kind of stuff. And then the last few decades, you know, Teddy Stadium has become the center. Yeah, you go there and you put the scarf on and the Bayttar supporters chant their anti Arab chants and you know, it's Mar Ben GVIR is there taking selfies. You know, it's a familiar scene and it's an effective scene and it allows him to not even have to say the horrible things. Right. It's like the people around him are saying the horrible things.
- [13:08]
Pablo Torre
And just to establish how horrible these things are, in this scene here, the fans are chanting we are the most racist team in the country is literally what they're saying as translated.
- [13:25]
Amos Varshat
One notable incident with Ben Guvir and La Familia is that he's actually defending them on the national news. There's this contentious interview he was doing, kind of was being pushed on his embrace of La Familia and he kind of just snapped. And you know, there's kind of echoes of Trump's famous comments after Charlottesville, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. And you know, what he said was in La Familia there are officers in the IDF and there are people who serve and who are moral and have high values. Please stop doing character assassination for the entire world. So, you know, this is the Minister of National Security going on national news to defend them, which I'm sure they left.
- [14:05]
Pablo Torre
And just to be very clear about this, their enemy as they see it, is, is who.
- [14:11]
Amos Varshat
So their cross city rival is called Hapoel Jerusalem. Hapoel is not historically a big club, but the fans are super devoted, small but passionate fan base. The interesting thing about them is that they are explicitly a club that fights for coexistence. You know, Arab, Jewish solidarity, a very, very different mentality. And they actually share a stadium.
- [14:39]
Pablo Torre
You said they're sharing the same physical location.
- [14:42]
Amos Varshat
Exactly. Yeah. It's a funny thing to wrap your head around the way that, you know, both these groups are beholden to their fans, but. But in very different ways. You know how Poel is actually fan owned.
- [14:53]
Pablo Torre
So this is, this is a team that is populist in, in. In some structural ways then as well, historical ways, as well as in terms of their ideology.
- [15:04]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot going on, you know, so. So, yeah. So Hopwael Jerusalem is tied to the once powerful trade union that, that, that still exists in Israel, but it isn't quite as powerful. Hapoel means the worker. You know, they have the sickle and hammer in their, in their slogan. It's all very explicit. And then at the same time, this current iteration of the club has created this community, literally, you know, direct democracy system. You know, fans that pay around $300 a year get voting rights on the, you know, on the board. The board appoints the. The CEO, the CEO hires the manager and the coach. So, you know, ultimately, if the fans aren't happy, you know, things are going to have to change. So I think it's a, it's a fascinating way to think about being a sports fan, you know, especially for me as an American sports fan. You know, I've loved the Celtics my whole life and I just give them.
- [15:49]
Pablo Torre
My money, you know, Quite as socialist.
- [15:51]
Amos Varshat
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, I bought a lot of Paul Pierce T shirts.
- [15:55]
Pablo Torre
So again, I want to be mindful of the ways in which. I'm not oversimplifying this story, but you've painted a picture here, Amos, where two teams that share the same stadium are on two diametric sides of the aisle, ideologically and also politically. Hoppewell. I want to just personalize them here. When you think of their fan base, is there a particular person that comes to mind?
- [16:18]
Amos Varshat
I think about a fan named Hirsch Goldberg Pullen. He's 23 and he has supported them since he was like a kid, like a, like a preteen. He grew up in the US until he was seven, so grew up in American sports culture. Was a White Sox fan, his mom says, in part, despite his dad, who is a Cubs fan, he moves to Jerusalem. I think he was 7 or 8 and falls in love with this all together different thing, this Israeli Jerusalem soccer culture, this team. Hup.
- [16:45]
Pablo Torre
Well.
- [16:49]
Amos Varshat
His friends describe him as just super, super passionate, always standing and singing. And he is a part of a supporters group that you could look at as kind of a parallel to la familia. These are the guys who are the hardcore for Rapuel. I spoke to one of his friends that is in this supporters group. His name is Nerius Smith.
- [17:12]
Nerius Smith
We don't like, sit down and watch the game and, you know, like eat sunflower seeds or something. Like other fans, we sing and we clap and we dance and we try to, like, affect the game in our own way.
- [17:32]
Amos Varshat
Very explicitly. They believe in peace, coexistence, Arab Jewish solidarity, almost like a social outreach entity. You know, they love this team. That's what brings them together. And then within that, they. They go forward in all kinds of charitable acts.
- [17:48]
Pablo Torre
What do they do as. As a matter of, like, programs. If. If. Yeah, if la familia is over there setting things on fire and. And, you know, what are Hirsch and his friends doing?
- [18:00]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, it's all super, you know, kind of classic do goodery.
- [18:03]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
- [18:04]
Amos Varshat
They held a tournament for people from Sudan that were, you know, effectively seeking asylum in Israel. So this group actually organized a day where they bused them to Jerusalem, had Sudanese food and music, musicians, actual performers, and held a tournament after a Jewish Arab school was. Was torched in 2014 by a suspected Jewish extremist. You know, they held up a banner in the stadium in support of the school. They're not like an anti occupation entity. They're not. They don't have solutions to the conflict and to the occupation, and they're not really suggested then. Right. They're trying to, like, focus in, on creating positivity in Jerusalem and just trying to control what they can, you know, so. Yeah, so Hirsch, within that context is kind of like a classic hup. World fan travels to away games on these bus rides that, you know, bring him back home in the middle of the night. I talked to his mom, Rachel, and she told me all about how he would just kind of finesse this with her.
- [19:01]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
Oh, my gosh, we're so. We were like, so American. He would say to us, he'd be in high school and he'd say, I've got to go to Naharia tonight. Now that's like on the bus that's like four hours from our house. This is part of the beauty of when you're an immigrant. You can tell your parents anything and they actually believe you.
- [19:19]
Amos Varshat
He'd always be like, this is the most important game. You know, you don't understand. If we, like, get three points here, then this happens. And she would be like, I don't understand what you're talking. I don't understand the calculus. But if you say. If you say that's right, you know, go ahead. And, you know, he'd like, give her heart attacks because, you know, there'd be bus rides in the middle of the night.
- [19:36]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
I mean, there was one time I remember that I woke up and it was like 3:30 in the morning on a school night, and he wasn't home. And I tried his phone and it went, you know, it indicated that the phone was dead. And I was really worried and I tried calling the other boy he was with, and his phone was also dead. And of course, what had happened was the bus had broken down on the way back and none of them had any way to call any of their parents. And when he did come in, I was like. I had been sitting up waiting for him and I was like, hysterical.
- [20:07]
Amos Varshat
She referred to him as a teenager coming into what she said was non sophisticated political awareness, which I think is a really nice phrase. And I think a lot of us can relate to that, being 15, 16, having like Che Guevara poster on our walls without being able to explain why. And so he believes in something that he can't quite understand. He finds this club and it's this perfect thing for him to just pour all his heart into. He becomes just like this really well known fan. And, you know, everyone describes him as cheery, happy, you know, and, and, and always shirtless, like, loves to be shirtless, which is great.
- [20:45]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Samus. I want to bring us into the day that it all started, this war, October 7th, because there were various attacks by Hamas along the border with Gaza. Where was Hirsch in all of that?
- [21:03]
Amos Varshat
You know, mass confusion, mass casualties. And in the middle of that, Hirsch was at a music festival, the Supernova festival that became the site of a mass shooting.
- [21:22]
Nerius Smith
The site of the music festival where Hamas did mass slaughter of young people taking hostages.
- [21:28]
Amos Varshat
You're learning some more information about that.
- [21:32]
Pablo Torre
Dance party that was taking place near the border. You're talking about slaughter.
- [21:37]
Amos Varshat
You're talking about human people who came.
- [21:40]
Pablo Torre
Face to face, shot up, stabbed, killed. These people, hundreds of civilians were killed, hunted down as they tried to flee the festival. So how do Hersh's friends hear about this in the first place in. In, in real time, as all this is unfolding?
- [22:18]
Amos Varshat
Narya, his friend, told me that in the chaos of that day, you know, everyone from the fan group and the related pals were changing text messages, WhatsApp messages.
- [22:31]
Nerius Smith
It just started circulating. There was like frantic messaging back and forth that Hirsch is there, he's at. He's at the party that we realized he went there and trying to find out his whereabouts, you know, sending, calling people, trying to see who, who he was with and realizing that his family hasn't heard from him. And this is real and this is happening. It took a while to understand that that's what happened. Because a lot of the people that were kidnapped, their status was first as missing. It took a while to understand that people were kidnapped to Gaza. He was hiding in a roadside bomb shelter with some 30 other people, and terrorists came there, and they shot into there. It's a very tight space. And they threw something like eight or nine grenades. His best friend, his name is Anil Shapira, he threw seven of the eight grenades that the Hamath terrorists threw into the bomb shelter. He threw them out, and he saved countless lives of people. And in the end, the eighth exploded on him and killed him. And there was also a fan, and he was Hersh's best friend, so we also remember him.
- [23:57]
Pablo Torre
So we should say here that Hirsch was severely injured by this grenade attack in this bunker, which we know in part because of cell phone video first obtained by cnn, which shows Hirsch being loaded into a truck by gunmen and then being driven off to captivity. Other gunmen shout as they bring survivors from the shelter. Come, come.
- [24:18]
Amos Varshat
They yell. Load them.
- [24:20]
Pablo Torre
That's Hirsch on the right with another hostage. His left hand and part of his arm is blown off.
- [24:27]
Amos Varshat
The bone sticks out.
- [24:32]
Pablo Torre
That video is the last visual proof that Hirsch's mom, Rachel, has of her son. And the last thing that Hersh told his family came in the form of text messages that he sent that same day, the day he was abducted. The first text was, I love you. The second one said, I'm sorry. And today, as of this episode, Hirsch has been away from home for 66 days. This is Hersh's mom, Rachel, again.
- [25:05]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
I would obviously really like to know how my son is doing after losing his arm. And that was the wound that we saw. You know when you're in a small room and grenades are going off and bullets are being fired? Yes. He lost his arm. I have no idea if he has internal bleeding, internal damage. I don't know how his hearing is. I don't know how his sight is.
- [25:29]
Amos Varshat
She was very direct about, you know, what she's going through.
- [25:33]
Pablo Torre
How. How does she describe what she's feeling?
- [25:37]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, you know, she's talking about. She. She described almost like a physical pain.
- [25:41]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
You and I are talking right now, and I seem probably pretty functional and normal, but it's a lot of. It takes, like, all of my reserves to do it, because it's like, if you didn't see that someone's underneath me, like, twisting my ankle, like, backwards. Like, that's what it feels like. Like, it's actual physical pain at all times, and emotional, psychological, spiritual pain. It's every kind of pain all at once.
- [26:11]
Amos Varshat
It was nice for me to speak with her about Hersh's fandom, you know, and to hear all the. All the positive stories, you know, all the. All the joy that he has had with Apoel in his life.
- [26:22]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
And that team, that fan team, that club has come here to our house has really just been. They have become family. The whole fan team had come out to support us with these huge banners, and one of his best friends said, gosh, when he gets home, he's gonna really hate this. He's a lot like me. Like, we like to fly under the radar. And now there's these enormous murals of his face, you know, that just say, bring Hirsch home. And I said, you know what? I would love to handle that anger. Like, that would be amazing, like, if I can have him home, and he'd be disappointed that his face is all over Jerusalem, that I will handle, no problem.
- [27:09]
Amos Varshat
I think that, you know, being kind of this community club, there's a natural way that you start spreading the word in the community. There's murals in Jerusalem, and his parents, independent of that, have also, from the outside, looks to me like they've done everything they possibly can, you know, to. To. To press the right buttons, you know, to. To get this word out, to speak to politicians, to the media.
- [27:32]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
The idea of what this team and club stand for, these ideas of peaceful coexistence, normalizing interaction through sports, it makes it feel like this painful moment that happened, that there's still hope. And in this time of intense, exquisite pain that I am in, to know that these people are fighting for him and all of them is like a tiny ray of hope for me. There's still hope. It's hope that's battered and bruised and tender right now. But I'm thankful that I. That I have gotten to know these young people and that they feel so committed to these values that the club and that the team promote.
- [28:28]
Nerius Smith
It's pretty amazing because, like, to see a stadium of 45,000, 50,000 people and the stadium announcers talking about Hirsch and his pictures on a big screen and the team, as published on Twitter, calls to bring him back and on Facebook, and they've been very involved, and I think that that's the power of our solidarity and our connection that could be shown. Also, during hard times.
- [28:57]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
I try not to really think about where he is or what's happening, because I can think that that could go really scary, really fast. But when I have a moment of a happy daydream, I picture him playing soccer There. I do. I picture him playing soccer with some children there. I don't know who those children are, if they're other hostages, if they're Palestinian kids. I don't know who they are. But I do picture that. It's a good game for teaching patients. I'm willing to watch. But like, all right, it takes a very long time for something to happen. So maybe, maybe it's helping him somewhere because it's that being able to sit there, like the fact that you could sit there for two hours and the score is 01, that's actually like a Zen practice of patience. Maybe it's helping him.
- [29:51]
Pablo Torre
Did you hear her sort of indulge the darkest fears that she might have? That Hirsch actually may not end up coming home?
- [30:02]
Amos Varshat
No, absolutely not. She's just manifesting that day, you know, when he comes back into her arms. That's all she was focused on.
- [30:11]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
I also picture that he's probably really bummed out because he always liked being the goalie. And I think being a one handed goalie is probably not really totally fair. But I'm thinking when he gets back, we'll get him like a gigantic bionic army, and that that left hand is going to be even bigger than it should actually be. And then an even better goalie.
- [30:48]
Pablo Torre
Rachel, his mom speaking to us, to you. I mean, I can't. I. The nightmare that she is living this through line in her son's life where he was this soccer super fan who was like sneaking out of the house basically to go watch this team.
- [31:05]
Amos Varshat
Yeah.
- [31:05]
Pablo Torre
This team that has as its whole, like, mission statement Arab Jewish relations. And he ends up being one of the people who are kidnapped here.
- [31:16]
Amos Varshat
Yeah.
- [31:16]
Pablo Torre
And if I'm his mom, I don't know if my first instinct would be to be thankful for the team.
- [31:23]
Amos Varshat
Yeah.
- [31:24]
Pablo Torre
It almost feels like there's this incredibly cruel irony that Hirsch specifically was one of these people who was taken. Hirsch's story is. Is both deeply moving, I hope to everyone, but it's also just one small window into truly an unimaginable number of tragedies that are happening simultaneously.
- [31:46]
Amos Varshat
Yeah. Today as we're speaking, over 15,000 people have been killed in Gaza. You know, there are people buried alive. Those aren't even counted as the deaths yet. And we're talking about Hirsch and we're like, highlighting his story.
- [32:00]
Pablo Torre
But just one. But one narrow window.
- [32:03]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, exactly.
- [32:04]
Pablo Torre
Into the story.
- [32:05]
Amos Varshat
I think that it's like a human truism that we've all kind of heard this cliche that one death is a Tragedy, you know, a million deaths is a statistic. I worry, you know, that even as we're doing this, that's where, that's what we kind of get lost in.
- [32:19]
Pablo Torre
Yes.
- [32:20]
Amos Varshat
The stories of the people being killed in Gaza, you know, each, each and every one of them is a tragedy. You know, each and every one. We spoke about this story as a way to talk about Israel, to talk about the political landscape in Israel.
- [32:37]
Pablo Torre
Yes.
- [32:37]
Amos Varshat
And we are fixating on this club and Hirsch as this basically fringe entity that fighting for some little semblance of, you know, Arab Jewish solidarity. But the reality is that's not the country. The country is more in line with Benvir, the Baytar die hard, the National Security Minister. Yeah, exactly. Anyone paying attention to some of the comments that have come out of kind of his allies in the Israeli far right coalition would be, you know, would be horrified. In part, it's just the kind of flippant way in which they're talking about mass death, you know, talking about flattening Gaza, talking about crushing Gaza. But it's also just as an aside, the flippant way in which they're disregarding the hostages.
- [33:28]
Pablo Torre
Right. This is the Israeli ambassador to the United nations saying as much on television. We expect the Red Cross, we expect all international organizations to focus on, on these hostages and how they are treated and that they receive treatment according to international law. But it's not going to stop us, prevent us from doing what we need to do in order to secure the future of Israel. We cannot.
- [33:53]
Amos Varshat
People in Ben Gvir's right wing camp, you know, said about we have to target Hamas mercilessly without taking into serious consideration the matter of the captives. You know, another minister has advocated for dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza. And, you know, when asked what about the hostages, said, I hope and pray for their return, but there are costs in war. Back to Hirsch for a minute and the idea of when could he maybe come home? So this first phase of the hostage negotiations was focused on women and children and there was an idea that they could move towards another phase. But the negotiations have broken down.
- [34:27]
Pablo Torre
Fighting has resumed.
- [34:29]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
Israel, of course, has withdrawn from negotiations in Qatar. Negotiations over the release of additional hostages, hostages in Gaza appear highly unlikely to resume anytime soon.
- [34:41]
Amos Varshat
Time is running out for those hundred and thirty or so remaining hostages inside Gaza. And one of the things that we're hearing from the families that they're so.
- [34:49]
Pablo Torre
Frustrated about is they feel like they understand the shape of a deal that.
- [34:53]
Amos Varshat
Will bring their loved ones home.
- [34:54]
Pablo Torre
It involves releasing probably thousands of Palestinian.
- [34:58]
Amos Varshat
Militants from Israeli jails. And they are saying to the government.
- [35:01]
Pablo Torre
Make that deal now.
- [35:02]
Amos Varshat
Bring our loved ones back. There is just a basic fact that some elements of the Israeli government are prioritizing the war over releasing the hostages. As this was going on, as the idea of continuing the negotiations was, was in the air, Ben Vere released a statement, you know, saying, stopping the war equals breaking apart the government. You know, that meant he was threatening to leave the coalition, the ruling coalition, which would likely trigger elections. You know, this is a kind of like, you know, the most radical option that he could come up with. And he's using it. You know, he's threatening Netanyahu, the prime minister, that. Don't even think about trying to free more of these hostages or I'll, you know, do the worst thing for you when you hear, you know, the ceasefire has ended, the hostage negotiations are off, you know, that didn't just happen, you know. Right. There are people involved that made that decision, that are prioritizing other things.
- [35:55]
Pablo Torre
And I also just want to be very transparent about, like, the decisions we make as a show. I often talk about how we have a newsroom here and we do. It's a small group of people, people that got to decide, like, what are we covering and what are we therefore not covering.
- [36:07]
Amos Varshat
Yeah.
- [36:08]
Pablo Torre
And we're a 50 minute show that is about sports technically. And so I do want to acknowledge that Hersh's story and the story of, of Baytar and Hoppoell, we chose that not just because it checks those boxes, but because this is now how I'm going to see what seems to be a very disturbing and complicated political dynamic in Israel.
- [36:30]
Amos Varshat
Yeah.
- [36:30]
Pablo Torre
And now, just to put what I've learned to the test, it seems like in Ben gvir, the national security Minister, Amos, we're going to get the Baytar super fan having to decide do I want to release prisoners and exchange them for hostages, when those hostages are these Hopwell superfans like Hirsch, who are not my people in the political or philosophical sense.
- [36:56]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, I mean, you know, like we talked about. I've been reporting this for 10 years. We're reporting on familiar for 10 years. This is not the only way or even the dominant way of looking at things, but it is a way of looking at things. The teams echo the bigger picture. They aren't defining it, but through them I think we can tell these human stories which reflects the fans, the people in power, you know, this kind of mob mentality that exists with la familia, the way they influence events in their particular unique Ways. And, yeah. You know, to go from here to try to keep reading, try, keep understanding, you know, why this is happening the way it's happening. Yeah. I hope. I hope. I hope it's of value in a small, contained way.
- [37:46]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, yeah. And the next human story, again that I want us to cover together is the story of the goalie with the bio.
- [37:52]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, yeah. Superstar.
- [37:55]
Pablo Torre
I want that scandal.
- [37:56]
Amos Varshat
Yeah.
- [37:56]
Pablo Torre
I want the robotic arm.
- [37:58]
Amos Varshat
They can't. They can't tell him he can't play.
- [38:00]
Pablo Torre
No, exactly.
- [38:01]
Amos Varshat
You know, I'm worried tactically they'll just. The opposing teams will just go to the other arm, won't they? I mean, it's. He'll be all right, but he'll be found out fairly quickly.
- [38:12]
Pablo Torre
You know what? I have a feeling that Rachel is going to have a solution.
- [38:15]
Amos Varshat
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:16]
Pablo Torre
She's thinking five steps ahead.
- [38:18]
Amos Varshat
Oh, yeah, yeah. She hates soccer, but she's a mastermind of it.
- [38:22]
Pablo Torre
Yes, absolutely. Amos Varshad, thank you for sharing your reporting.
- [38:26]
Amos Varshat
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
- [38:45]
Pablo Torre
So I should point out at the end here that Betar and Hoppelwell actually played last Wednesday at Teddy Stadium, the stadium that they share in Jerusalem, and Baytar won 1 nil. But by the very next day, which just happened to be the first day of Hanukkah, Hirsch's dad, John, the Cubs fan that we had mentioned earlier, who had inspired his son's contrarian baseball White Sox fandom, was unambiguous in his rooting interest, as he explained on the Instagram account titled Bring Hirsch Home.
- [39:21]
Amos Varshat
So it's the holiday of Hanukkah now, and every day of Hanukkah, we're going to share a little snippet about Hirsch corresponding to the number of what day it is of Hanukkah. Today's the first day. So of course, Hershey's our first child, our one and only son. And there are lots of other ones and firsts that I could talk about, but if I'm honest, Hersh's real first love for many, many years has been Hapal Jerusalem.
- [39:52]
Pablo Torre
And then a couple days later, Hirsch's sisters, Libya and Orlie followed up with some symbolism of their own.
- [39:59]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
Today is day three of Khalifa, which is a significant number because we're three siblings. As you guys know, Hersh is our older brother with three children. He has this thing where every time the three of us are together, he'll say, oh, we're having an Abu Hatachim or Nisiyat Achim or Seiretachim Everything we do together, he just adds that word. So we're just waiting for him to come back so we can have an erei machim like we love to have with him. We love him and miss him and hope he comes home every day.
- [40:27]
Pablo Torre
Hirsch's family, including Rachel, the mom who spoke to us, is gonna keep posting videos like this, and the hope is that there can be more hostages released and that there can be another ceasefire, as unlikely as that might look right now, with the latest headlines indicating that the Palestinian death toll is rising right alongside the number of rounds of tank ammunition that America is selling to Bayt, our superfan Itamar Ben gvir, and the Israeli government, which presumably celebrated that one nil outcome that I had just referenced. But these teams, I do want to stress, are not the only lens to see this story through. As AM has said, they are a lens. They are not the only one. And for that reason, I suppose it would be easier to not have tried to talk about any of this. But if you made it this far listening, I think that means something, too. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.
- [41:54]
Rachel (Hirsch's Mom)
Sam.