Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: "Does Nikola Jokić Love Horses More Than Basketball?"
Date: May 7, 2024
Host: Pablo Torre
Correspondent: Mickey Dujay
Notable Guest: Tim Tetrick (“The Bionic Man” of harness racing)

Overview: Main Theme

This episode explores the unique passion Denver Nuggets superstar and two-time NBA MVP Nikola Jokić has for horses—particularly harness racing—and investigates whether this “hidden in plain sight” love rivals or perhaps, in Jokić’s view, surpasses his affinity for basketball. Through immersive, on-the-ground reporting by artist and documentarian Mickey Dujay, Pablo Torre examines not only the world of harness racing that captivates Jokić but also what this devotion reveals about fulfillment, identity, and celebrity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Jokić’s Peculiar Public Persona

• Pablo opens by highlighting Jokić’s idiosyncrasies: a superstar who appears press-averse, indifferent to fame, and only animated when horses are involved.
• [02:32] Mickey Dujay: “It's a golden age for eccentrics in the NBA. And he's probably the number one. He bobs and weaves. He does not let us into his world. Or if he does, he gives us little tantalizing scraps here and there. There's a veil of secrecy, let's say.”

2. The Viral Clip: Basketball or Horses?

• The episode references Jokić’s now-famous post-NBA Finals interview, where, after winning a championship, he expresses eagerness—not to celebrate, but to return home to Serbia for horse racing.
• [03:09] Nikola Jokić: “No, I need to go home... I have my horse racing.”

3. Jokić’s Stated Passion—In His Own Words

• On a teammate’s podcast, Jokić details his retirement dream: obscurity, family, and racing horses across Europe.
• [04:28] Nikola Jokić: "After the career is over... I want to be around the family and spend the rest of the day with the horses... My secret goal is to be a driver... travel the world or Europe and race horses."

4. Harness Racing 101

• Mickey explains the distinction: Jokić is obsessed with harness (chariot) racing, not traditional jockey-led horse racing.
• The two conduct a “tail of the tape” comparison between basketball and harness racing, humorously weighing aspects like history, tactics, and celebrity fans (e.g., King Tut vs. Michael Jordan; Caligula & Ric Flair).
• [06:53] Mickey Dujay (Contrarian take): “It is my belief that harness racing is actually hiding in plain sight as being a much more exciting sport than American basketball.”

5. The “Sensory” World of Harness Racing

• Online presence is minimal. The sport's thrill, Dujay contends, lies in the hands-on, tactile experience.
• [22:37] Pablo Torre: "Right. There's a level in which this is a Pokémon... to Nikola Jokić."
• Pablo and Mickey discuss how Jokić’s involvement—everything from hands-on stabling to undercover visits with American harness racing royalty—is about fulfillment, not victory or spectacle.

6. Mickey’s Field Reporting—Becoming a Stable Boy

• Reenacting Jokić’s path, Mickey spends a day at Gateway Farms in New Jersey, engaging in the same menial chores: cleaning stalls, brushing horses, and prepping for race day.
• [27:31] Kyle (Horse Attendant): “There's peace in it, you know? There really is.”
• [28:54] Mickey Dujay: "Brushing dingleberries out of a tail... made me feel a closeness that I'd never felt for a horse before."

7. Meeting the “Bionic Man”: Tim Tetrick

• Jokić’s American harness racing "idol," Tim Tetrick, describes their unlikely friendship.
• [19:06] Tim Tetrick: “For me, when I got with him, I wanted to talk about basketball, and he's like, no basketball, just horses.”

8. The Big Race at Pocono Downs

• Mickey follows the horse Line Em Up (trained and driven by Tetrick) from the barn to the rainy, sparsely attended race at Pocono Downs.
• Emotional investment builds as the reporter, crew, and even Pablo gamble on Line Em Up, who finishes a valiant second.
• [37:44] Mickey Dujay: “...I was thinking about the bizarre quality that this sport has where for all the expense and labor and prep that goes into it, how it could even exist with, like, virtually no fans in the stands.”

9. What Jokić’s Obsession Reveals

• The show pivots: perhaps the question isn’t whether harness racing is “better” than basketball, but how this private, physically grounded pursuit sustains Jokić’s greatness amid NBA spectacle.
• [46:27] Mickey Dujay: “It's probably for someone like Nikola who has talked about how harness racing is something that he does to recharge his batteries, that these things actually exist in harmony with each other in him.”

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• [03:09] Nikola Jokić on skipping the championship parade:
  “No, I need to go home... I have my horse racing.”

• [04:28] Jokić’s retirement dream:
  “After the career is over... I want to be around the family and spend the rest of the day with the horses... travel the world or Europe and race.”

• [06:53] Mickey Dujay’s tongue-in-cheek claim:
  “It is my belief that harness racing is actually... a much more exciting sport than American basketball.”

• [19:06] Tim Tetrick:
  “When I got with [Jokić], I wanted to talk about basketball, and he's like, no basketball, just horses.”

• [19:41] Nikola Jokić (read by Dujay):
  "Since I started falling in love with the horses, it put me in some other dimension and makes me feel some connection... it's a pure love."

• [27:31] Kyle (Horse Attendant) on stable work:
  “There's peace in it, you know? There really is.”

• [28:54] Mickey Dujay:
  "Brushing dingleberries out of a tail... made me feel a closeness that I'd never felt for a horse before."

• [41:51] Tim Tetrick (race result announcement):
  "It's a photo for the place between big, big plans and Line em up. Elysium Sealster was third. Forgot the wall at the Aussie dozen again in 154 flat."

• [46:27] Mickey Dujay (on Jokić’s dual passions):
  “...these things actually exist in harmony with each other in him. There's really something there to learn for all of us.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00-02:32 — Opening: Jokić’s persona, horse obsession vs. basketball
• 03:06-04:28 — Jokić’s own words: horses over parades, secret goal to race
• 06:53-10:29 — Debate: Harness racing vs. basketball (history, fans, tactics)
• 11:55-12:52 — Harness racing 101: breeds, racing styles
• 14:19-16:32 — Failed attempt to interview Jokić; his childhood roots in racing
• 18:12-19:24 — Tim Tetrick and Jokić meet; their mutual admiration
• 24:34-28:32 — Mickey at Gateway Farms: cleaning, grooming, “stable boy” reporting
• 32:45-36:12 — At Pocono Downs: atmosphere, prepping for the race, good luck horseshoe
• 39:48-42:10 — The Race: live reactions; Line Em Up gets second place
• 44:53-47:14 — Takeaways: why harness racing matters to Jokić and to the story
• 47:14-End — Final reflections: will Jokić leave the spotlight for this quieter dream?

Language, Tone & Style

The episode balances wit, curiosity, and humility. Pablo’s persistent incredulity is offset by Mickey’s earnest (and sometimes goofy) attempts to bring the audience into Jokić’s world, even as the reporting leads to muddy boots, dingleberry mishaps, and an anticlimactic second place. The storytelling is playful ("Pokémon for Jokić"), self-deprecating, but ultimately reveals unexpected emotional investment and insight about fulfillment versus fame.

Conclusion: Insights for Listeners

• Jokić’s public love of horses isn’t affectation but rooted in childhood and has grown even more intense as his basketball stardom has increased.
• Harness racing, in contrast to the media-saturated NBA, is tactile, real, and indifferent to celebrity—precisely what appeals to Jokić.
• The episode, in diving deep, finds that the real story isn’t about one sport’s supremacy over another, but what personal, sometimes unglamorous passions can offer—whether you’re the world’s best basketball player or just a guy cleaning stalls in the rain.

Listen if you want to:

• Understand Nikola Jokić’s personality beyond the NBA
• Learn peculiar and fascinating facts about harness racing
• Hear a charming, funny, and surprisingly heartfelt journey through sports, fame, and finding joy in unlikely places