Drawn and Quarter-Zipped: The Death of Sports Fashion, with Wesley Morris

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Drawn and Quarter-Zipped: The Death of Sports Fashion"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Episode Guests: Pablo Torre (Host), Wesley Morris (NYT Critic, Pulitzer Winner)
Release Date: May 28, 2024

---

Overview

This episode, featuring Pulitzer-winning critic Wesley Morris, is a deep, lively exploration of the current state of fashion on the sidelines of American sports, especially basketball. Pablo and Wesley dissect the rapid shift—accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic—from coaches wearing distinctive suits to the widespread, uniform adoption of branded athleisure wear. They probe the loss of individuality, spectacle, and authority in coaches' style, trace the evolution historically, discuss the cultural ramifications, and highlight the contrasts with women’s sports.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pandemic’s Impact on Sports Sideline Fashion

[00:54-02:58]

• Both guests agree: the pandemic permanently altered how coaches dress.

• Pre-pandemic: Coaches’ attire was individualistic and stylistic.

• Now: Nearly all college and professional basketball coaches wear “quarter-zip” team-branded pullovers and athleisure, reflecting a new, more casual, “egalitarian” sideline look.

  “There is a pandemic of athleisure that is eating away at this thing I love.” – Pablo Torre [02:12]

  “Things are bad. Things are really, really bad.” – Wesley Morris [01:03]

2. Athleisure’s Ubiquity and the “Golfification” of Coaching

[06:07-12:16]

• The prevailing sideline outfit: the ubiquitous quarter-zip pullover, usually marked by team and Nike logos.

• This attire “infantilizes” authority, with head coaches, assistants, and staff all dressed alike.

• The aesthetic, they argue, draws heavily from golf culture, which itself is about “maximum comfort with minimum effort.”

  “They all look like they're about to coach, you know, a bunch of 10-year-olds through dodgeball.” – Wesley Morris [12:01]

  “It’s as if everybody’s been invited to an event, and the dress code is ‘festive attire.’ ... This is an invitation to embarrassment.” – Pablo Torre [12:26-12:49]

3. Authority and Perceptions: The Coach’s Persona

[07:47-11:45]

• They analyze what we expect authority to “look” like, and why it's problematic that coaches no longer “dress the part.”

• Discussing owner Donald Sterling’s racist comments, they draw a line to today’s “egalitarian” coaching wardrobe—a way for management to appear more like “managers” than “owners.”

• The new approach flattens hierarchy, but feels “unimaginative” and “safe,” with a touch of social anxiety about standing out, especially for male coaches.

  “It's an egalitarian kind of a flex, really. It’s a story the league can tell itself about what it isn’t.” – Wesley Morris [10:44]

  "There's a soft bigotry of low expectations." – Pablo Torre [11:45]

4. Historic Sideline Fashion: A Lost Golden Age

[13:02-25:59]

• They reminisce about flamboyant, unique coach styles:

  • Larry Brown’s wild overalls and vest/turtleneck combos (Denver Nuggets, 1970s)
  • Lenny Wilkens’ “Shaft goes to Seattle” leather suits
  • Doc Rivers’ “delicious glass bowl of chocolate pudding” skin and sharp suits

• Clothes once projected character, personality, and difference—but now, sameness prevails.

  “You could tell a coach by their wardrobe. Coaches were characters.” – Pablo Torre [04:07]

  “You can find pants that will allow you to make this stance. There’s no excuse, boys.” – Wesley Morris [15:59]

5. Women’s Sports: Outrageousness & Style

[17:45-25:33]

• Women’s college basketball is the counter-example:

  • Kim Mulkey wears outlandish, striking, and often camp fashions (“like a Muppet blew up on her”), pushing spectacle to the extreme.
  • Dawn Staley displays her own calculated, stylish comfort, blending luxury and street styles.

• Their individuality and risk-taking is admired, with the implication NBA coaches could learn from them.

  “I love that she wears this stuff.” – Pablo Torre [21:39] “She’s literally screaming at a ref...but she’s kept that button buttoned.” – Wesley Morris [21:41]

6. The Uniform Dilemma in Baseball and Broader Sports

[38:34-43:13]

• Baseball is one sport where coaches literally dress as players due to uniform rules—sometimes with unintentionally comedic or undignified results (e.g., Don Zimmer).

• The broader question: should coaches dress as authority figures, as peers, or as extensions of the brand?

• Even as they ridicule current MLB manager attire, both agree it beats the alternative—golfy athleisure.

  “I’d rather have them wear this than the golf clothes. Because then they look like McKinsey is managing the team.” – Wesley Morris [40:09]

7. Cultural and Political Contexts: Anxiety, Authority, and Conformity

[43:46-45:26]

• They tie the anxiety of “dressing like an authority” to today’s social and political climate, arguing that leadership isn’t “sexy” and displaying hierarchy is out of fashion.

• There’s a movement to minimize visual difference between managers and players—a metaphor for today’s “flattened” institutions.

• Spectacle and distinctiveness are lost, and with it, the sense of coaches as event-makers, not just participants.

  “Leadership is not sexy right now.” – Wesley Morris [44:57]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Post-Pandemic Fashion Shift

  “Even the tunnel walks now are just like, ‘this is what my girlfriend had on the sofa when I left the house this morning.’” – Wesley Morris [01:48]

• On the Problem with Current Sideline Looks

  “Who make themselves...in case some coaches...millions of dollars. No question. This is unacceptable to me.” – Wesley Morris [12:19]

• On Kim Mulkey’s Style Politics

  “She looks like a Muppet blew up on her...And yet, she looks fantastic. I love this for her, as they say.” – Pablo Torre and Wesley Morris [18:04-21:16]

• On Coaches Reluctant to Dress Up

  “Is there one assistant coach who isn’t like, ‘Man, I just got this great suit the other day. Electric blue.’” – Pablo Torre [28:33]

• On Doc Rivers & the Aesthetic Loss

  “If you had asked me in 2012...would Doc Rivers ever succumb to the quarter zip pullover? ... And now look at us. It's a tragedy.” – Wesley Morris [32:57]

---

Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Topic | |--------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:54–02:58 | The pandemic and the athleisure takeover | | 04:07–06:07 | Historical importance of sideline suits and “characters” | | 06:07–12:16 | The quarter-zip plague and infantilization of authority | | 13:02–17:04 | Nostalgic review of classic coach styles | | 17:45–25:33 | Women’s college basketball: bold fashion exceptions | | 26:02–29:06 | Conformity, comfort, and the loss of individuality | | 31:21–33:43 | The Doc Rivers anecdote & personal style philosophies | | 38:34–43:13 | Baseball: cosplay, uniforms, and nostalgia | | 43:46–47:18 | Social/political context; spectacle vs. conformity | | 47:23–49:23 | Conclusion: missing the spectacle, hoping for revival |

---

Takeaways

• The move to standardized, casual, branded athleisure for coaches—ushered in by pandemic habit and golf culture—has eroded individuality and spectacle in sports, particularly men’s basketball.
• This sartorial shift is part of a larger cultural anxiety about authority and hierarchy, mirroring broader political and social flattenings.
• The contrast with women’s sports, where coaches like Kim Mulkey and Dawn Staley dress with flair and personality, suggests what has been lost.
• Both hosts yearn for a return to style that signals purpose, personality, and importance—making the event feel larger and more meaningful.

---

Final Word

“What I miss is the ability to look at a person, a coach, on a sideline…having had to decide. What does festive attire mean?” – Pablo Torre [48:13]

---

For those who haven’t listened, this episode offers a funny, sharp, and surprisingly deep reflection on sports culture, fashion, and what we lose when everyone stops trying to stand out.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[B]

Do you think that would have happened to Don Zimmer if he were wearing, like, a fedora and a trench coat.

[A]

And a suit right after this ad? You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[B]

I did take notes on some things. Ooh, I probably won't need them, but.

[A]

I have notes, too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they are subdivided by both feelings and by sport. And the surprising thing, to me, the reason why I brought you here is because I think you have a greater clarity of feeling than me. I'm surprised. I feel as strongly as I do about today's subject.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

How would you describe Wesley, the. The top level feeling that is in those pages of your notebook?

[B]

That things are bad. Things are really, really bad. Like, things are bad in this notebook, which also contains notes. The Color Purple and the Indigo Girls documentary called Glitter and Doom and zone of zone of interest. My zone of interest notes are in this. But we're here today to talk about what coaches wear.

[A]

We're here grappling with, I believe, to be an underreported, under discussed.

[B]

Under discussed.

[A]

Under discussed consequence of the pandemic.

[B]

Oh, you think this too? 1 million percent it changed. I mean. I mean, America is going to be like. When I say it changed everything, they're going to hang up the phone.

[A]

No, no, no, keep going with this take.

[B]

It changed everything.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It made everybody lazy, unimaginative. Like, even the tunnel walks now are just like. This is what my girlfriend had on the sofa when I left the house this morning. So this is what we're doing.

[A]

I should clarify that. Your expertise on this subject is earned. It comes with previous. Previous note taking.

[B]

I mean, you used to write a.

[A]

Column called the Sports Torialist. Oh, yeah, right. And so I'm a guy wearing a blue cardigan and some shorts. I am not somebody who comes to this with a predispos for such criticism, and yet I am like, there is a pandemic of athleisure that is eating away at this thing. I love.

[B]

You're 100 correct about the athleisure fication of. Of life on this planet. Like, really, you go anywhere now and it's. And that's what everybody's wearing because it's cheap. It's allegedly comfortable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was there a moment when you saw it and you were like, oh, there's no. We're not going back from this.

[A]

It was literally the pandemic.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

It was because of the bubble.

[B]

The bubble? Yeah, it was when.

[A]

When rules formally changed, as well as habits as well as human behavior. But the rules in the bubble for the NBA and the WNBA were. Look, we're going through a tough time. We don't have fans here. People aren't really, like, watching was the whole vibe of, like, so we can try different things and let's make it so that all of us are in sweatpants. And so sports began to reflect everyone else outside. And the coach, the. The portrait of authority began to look like the players. The opposite.

[B]

The players, like.

[A]

Like, labor it really. And this is not a take that I was like, oh, I knew I would feel this way. But now I'm just like, we have gone way too far.

[B]

It's too far.

[A]

Okay, so you may remember our friend Wesley Morris, the critically larger the New York Times, as the movie person, as the only person to ever win two Pulitzer Prizes for criticism, in fact. But you should also know that Wesley used to be a blogger. A blogger who saw clothes as worthy of real and rigorous and published analysis. Like any other art form, he saw clothes as something more than simply superficial. And I, while reading Wesley, did not feel that way necessarily. But while watching basketball these past few years, both men's and women's, college and pro, I have found myself feeling more and more and more like Wesley. I have found myself rubbernecking, actually watching these games, but unable to stop craning my neck back morbidly at the disasters unfolding along the sidelines of these games. Because back in my day, until 2020, in other words, when team branded casual wear replaced suits across college and pro basketball, you could tell a coach by their wardrobe. Coaches were characters. They were characters with coaching strategies and fashion strategies because the players wore uniforms, but the adult in charge did not. This is how we got Pat Riley making Armani more famous than any model did while he was coaching the Lakers, for instance. It is also how he got Jim Boehib famous for ripping off his suit jacket so often while coaching Syracuse that he started wearing a suit jacket that was lined with pictures of him ripping off his other suit jackets. And if you're wondering, yes, Jim Boeheim at one point also ripped that suit jacket off too. But after the pandemic, Jim Boeheim stopped wearing the suit jacket. In fact, pretty much all coaches stopped wearing anything like the stuff that I remember.

[B]

What are people wearing? They are wearing what I'm gonna generously describe as a sweater. A pullover. And it's got a quarter zipper. Yes, the zipper doesn't come all the way down.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

One reason I think it's convenient this, this took hold the way that it is because you. How do you get that garment on or off? You got to pull it over your head. Most of these coaches are bald. They don't have any hair to worry about.

[A]

Right behind you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there he is.

[A]

Rick Carlile.

[B]

That's a shame.

[A]

Eastern Conference final.

[B]

This man used to have hair. I mean, he was thinning, but he could have kept it. No shot. I mean, this looks good too.

[A]

But what we're seeing though, beneath the, the. The collarbone is a quarter zip pullover type deal.

[B]

I mean, he thinks he's being cute by having the placard cover the zipper. We ain't fooled. We know. I want some explanation because it's not going to come from Rick Carlisle. No, it's not going to come from even maybe the Pacers. I think the league would probably have something to say about why it's the same thing. You get the team logo on the right breast and you get the Nike logo on the left.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some of them have like, nice quote, nice piping around the zipper. The Pacers are giving this man a placard to pull to have, you know, hide the zipper. But it's all the same. It's all the same garment. And the assistant coaches, the data boys.

[A]

Yes. Like the, the equipment manager, everybody's wearing this, giving him his clothes, are wearing the same clothes they're handing to him.

[B]

It's so infantilizing. I don't understand.

[A]

So it's a question of like, what is authority supposed to look and why do we want it to look like a certain way?

[B]

We don't like authority anymore. We don't believe in it. We don't trust it. I think that there's something about the coach looking like the players or looking like appearing to be in tandem with the players, peers. The Donald Sterling situation, right. For the first time in as clear a way as you possibly could, could have an owner being very clear about who he was in relation to his team and the team he owned and the players who, who worked for him, quote, worked for him.

[A]

We make the game.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The Donald Sterling quote about like this is, I mean, ours, not yours.

[B]

Right. I support them and give them food and clothes and cars and houses. Who gives it to them? If someone else gives it to them.

[A]

Do I know that I have.

[B]

Who makes the game? Do I make the game or do they make the game? The thing that always had bothered at least me about the way the League worked was that it was a league full of white owners with prominent black staff. And what would happen every, you know, what, how many times a season? A couple times a season, there'd be a big trade and then there's something called a draft, which is really an auction essentially. It just never felt good. So it actually was a relief.

[A]

I don't know, Wesley. I feel like measuring the body parts of black people. It can be entirely race neutral.

[B]

Okay, Pablo, I just want to know how strong they are.

[A]

How high can you jump?

[B]

Can I, can I feel that arm?

[A]

Can I, can I touch what Donald Sterling was literally doing in the locker room? Oh, yeah, just like feeling his property.

[B]

Well, when that came, all the, all the rev. All the things that got shook loose. Four players about this, man. The idea that, you know, we're a bunch, we're mostly a bunch of black guys and these owners are white guys. And what does it mean to like have a 400 year old racial dynamic commodified and broadcast and codified in this way? And what does it mean that, like, we don't have any say in how we, how we look, where we go as players? Like, we don't have any. Like our, our agents and managers and owners are determining where on the chessboard of the sport we go. I think management got that signal too. And they don't want to look like people who own things. Right. They want to look like they manage things. And what does a manager do wearing a, you know, $5,000 suit many times a week, a different one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's just like, I'm going to wear this very simple casual thing. It is a, it is a, like an egalitarian kind of a flex, really. And I think it makes it easier for the league. It's a story the league can tell itself about what it isn't. Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I don't see those guys, quote, graduating to, to suiting. Right? To. To wearing like a tailored fitted suit. I think Rick Carlisle should be ashamed of himself. I'm gonna, I'm gonna gender this a little bit. Any woman married to a man who needs to go out somewhere for a special occasion, even if it's just dinner, cuz you got a babysitter for the night when that dude comes down the steps. I mean, there are a lot of women who were just like, okay, we're going to dinner. Not the 17th hole, Mother. You need to go back upstairs and fix that. But I actually think that these women are like, well, that's some effort.

[A]

Oh wow, that's some Effort, the soft bigotry of low expectations.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he's trying something. And the thing is like the golfification.

[A]

It is it golf is clearly the aesthetic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Underneath all of the NBA, that's what.

[B]

These guys are wearing. They all look like phys. Ed coaches. Like as a. As a phalanx on the sideline of the court. They all look like they're about to coach, you know, a bunch of 10 year olds through dodgeball.

[A]

You would not know that they are in charge of a multibillion dollar enterprise.

[B]

Who make themselves, you know, in case some coaches.

[A]

Million millions of dollars. No question.

[B]

This is unacceptable to me.

[A]

What are you dressing up for? Is an operative question here. It's as if everybody's been invited to an event. And the dress code, it's one of those wedding invitations where it's vague and it's sort of like you interpret this how you want to.

[B]

Festive attire.

[A]

Festive attire.

[B]

Your festive attire.

[A]

What?

[B]

Tell me what to wear.

[A]

Me, what to wear? Yes.

[B]

I could be wearing anything.

[A]

This is an invitation to embarrassment.

[B]

No, I'm not falling for that.

[A]

The history of basketball. Coaches on sidelines. Some of the greatest ones, some of the most revered ones. Larry Brown coaching the Denver Nuggets of the aba.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

Have you not seen these?

[B]

That's Larry?

[A]

This is Larry Brown?

[B]

My Larry?

[A]

Your Larry Brown. Philadelphia 76ers, former head coach, head of Team USA, the guy who coached Allen Iverson. The face of a certain authority back in the NBA. Wesley, what is the outfit on the right? What are you seeing there?

[B]

Hee haw. Literal, but literal.

[A]

Oshkosh Bagash overall.

[B]

Hold on though. Pablo. Can I. Can we just do it?

[A]

What you got?

[B]

He spent the whole game looking like this.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wesley Morris is telestrating the crotch of an overall Larry Brown.

[B]

No secrets.

[A]

I now am seeing what you have spotted immediately.

[B]

It's just like. It's just bold. But I mean, look, it's. What is that, 1979 you said?

[A]

Yeah, in the 70s.

[B]

This is F. This is like Saturday Night Fever era. This is definitely he haw era.

[A]

He was known as the Mod Father.

[B]

I mean, he's wearing starch key and hutch on the.

[A]

On the upper left, the tan leather vest over a brown button down.

[B]

And Sesame street down on the bottom right. Sesame street sweater. I mean, but look what everybody else is wearing. One of the people at that table, the scoring, the announcing table, is wearing a really great peach turtleneck.

[A]

Oh, we got. Hold on. Can we summon. If you want. Turtleneck can we summon 81? Lenny Wilkins coaching the Sonics. Look at the. The palette.

[B]

Look at it all.

[A]

How would you describe what Lenny is wearing? What Coach Wilkins is wearing?

[B]

Shaft goes to Seattle.

[A]

The shiny black leather.

[B]

I mean, just the excellent, like, like a big, wide lapel. It might even be. Is it possible it's double breasted.

[A]

It has that effect.

[B]

It might just be single button, too.

[A]

But over the turtleneck.

[B]

But over this, like this rust colored turtleneck is fantastic.

[A]

He looks great.

[B]

I need to see the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, I'm sure the pants are flaring at the bottom and he's got a pair of boots on and that. That's probably gonna work.

[A]

Yes. And I want you to just compare and contrast.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Lenny Wilkins in 81 with 20 20. Nick. Nurse.

[B]

Oh, Nick, I can't look. Oh, Nick. Oh, my God. It's Paul Blart, Mall Cop.

[A]

Paul Blart, Mall cop in a spread defensive stance.

[B]

Now, this is important, actually, this picture is important because what is it demonstrating? Right? It's demonstrating there's more to the job, obviously, than just sitting on in a chair for, you know, four quarters. But it also is demonstrating that you can find pants that will allow you to make this dance. There's no excuse, boys.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can find pants that will still let you act a fool.

[A]

Yep. Do your version of a weird haka dance as if you're a new New Zealander tribesmen. Yeah.

[B]

Also, I love that his button is like a. Like a Coaches for racial justice or whatever.

[A]

Oh, my. Yes. It does say situating US obviously in 2020 racial justice as if that's his.

[B]

Mall badge better than Paul Blart's mall badge.

[A]

Jesus, man.

[B]

He's not wearing the quarter zip. Right. He's wearing a golf shirt.

[A]

He's wearing a polo. A golf polo. And black and pants, pink and white striped.

[B]

What I would say are smart. Smart shoes. Right?

[A]

You know, they're.

[B]

They're those like, smart dress shoes that men wear because they think they're comfortable, because men think that dress shoes aren't comfortable, but you got to put them in and they'll be like wearing a couch on your feet.

[A]

The idea that formal wear, or even just the wear that we saw, Larry Brown, Lenny Wilkins, that. That would feel imprisoning as opposed to liberating.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, but I don't think. I don't think our coaches need to go to Margaritaville during the game. Save that for after when y' all win.

[A]

And so how you answer the question? The rorschach test of what is festive attire look like to you? All these guys are answering as if they are going to the 17th hole. And meanwhile. Okay. As a matter of contrast in women's college basketball.

[B]

Oh, boy. Yes. Bring it.

[A]

I'm. I'm looking at Kim Muli and she looks like this. Wesley, look at this. These are just three outfits. If you're not watching YouTube with drafting network.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

LSU head coach Kim Mulkey. Politics are one thing, but her fashion.

[B]

Sense, I mean, her faction is a politics. Right. I mean, she looks like a Muppet blew up on her. One of these outfits. Another one of them looks like.

[A]

I mean, it looks like she's our righteous gemstones character.

[B]

I mean, it's. It's deeper than that, though. It's kind of like.

[A]

Look at the feathers.

[B]

It's like she took Barbie steroids and that's what came out. Right.

[A]

Like there's one. Just in order from left to right. I want to describe this. Like, what is like on the left.

[B]

The left is a madras jacket.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's got flower, like flowers embroidered into it.

[A]

It looks like there's a bright green and brown on white pattern. And then the flower, which, I mean, it looks like kind of like what those. Like, like a sea anemone almost.

[B]

Well, yes. That's fair. Do you know the company, Bodhi? Are you. Is that a Bodie sweater?

[A]

The body cardigan.

[B]

I called it. I called it.

[A]

Thank you. The first one to mention that this is a sweater of some repute. I digress.

[B]

And then on the sides are our. Our. A bow or two. Boa. Right. It's like. It's like that Randy Macho Man Savage.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is growing out of her arms or right. And she's hulked out in this picture is not helping.

[A]

There's a word that you've used on a previous appearance on this show. There is a camp to this, Wesley.

[B]

Yes. Oh, 100%.

[A]

Which is part of why the politics of this are so like, to me, mind blowing.

[B]

What are her politics?

[A]

Super trumpy.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, this is not surprising.

[A]

By the way, I'm not here anyway. That's not even why I'm bringing this up.

[B]

No matter what, how much ruination she wants to bring upon this country or help bring upon this country. I think that the NBA should be looking at a person like Kim Mulkey and being, you know, like, you know what, Rick Carlisle, I really want to see you do more. I don't know, full houses, you know, straight. Straight Flushes on. On your blazers.

[A]

The middle picture is a seemingly like black blazer. Bedazzled, sequined.

[B]

It's from a company called.

[A]

Oh, you looked this up.

[B]

Queen of Sparkles is the company that makes this jack.

[A]

There are dice on it. There's a horseshoe, There is a poker chip. There's a heart.

[B]

There's a roulette machine.

[A]

Machine.

[B]

Yeah. Win, win, win. I mean.

[A]

And then on the right, it's just. It feels like she's mutating into a Muppet.

[B]

To your point, this is like, what.

[A]

Are those cups coming out of a lime green?

[B]

What are the things that go on the heads of pencils? Those cute little things with the. It's like somebody took a bunch of those.

[A]

Yeah, those like, those are like, like.

[B]

Pom poms are like little, little pockets.

[A]

Are stuffed with like decapitated trolls.

[B]

Yes, that's it. Yeah.

[A]

Troll hair. The weirdest possible.

[B]

But here's the important thing. We're talking about how utre these outfits are. They are ridiculous. By the way, I just want to point out that House of Sparkles blazer has matching pants. That's important.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Right. And the other things are separate. There's a like mint colored blazer with the little trolls heads on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a pink. Probably a tank top and pink pants. So these are like really considered outfits. And they fit, Right? These are clothes that fit this woman.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

They look good on her. Like in terms of like a silhouette, they look great. And even with Macho man bowing out of her arms, she looks comfortable in these clothes.

[A]

I love that she wears this stuff.

[B]

And it's another thing. It's an important thing to also say is that she keeps the jackets button. Right. She's literally screaming at a ref or something right now, or I don't know what she's doing, but she's kept that button. Button, yeah.

[A]

She's screaming like she's insurrecting. And the whole time her madras is well, well buttoned.

[B]

Yes. I mean, it looks. She's like forming an oath, like Pelosi I. But the clothes fit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And she looks fantastic.

[A]

I love this for her, as they say.

[B]

But I mean, just to go here, our friend Craig, I mean, wasn't my friend and probably wasn't yours either, but Craig Sager, the late, great Craig Sager.

[A]

No one dressed more boldly.

[B]

I think that Kim Mulkey, I mean, she does have corollaries in other sports. They tend to be like professional wrestling, you know, sideline announcing or, you know, whatever. However we're going to classify what it was that.

[A]

That Craig Sega and by the way, some Clyde Frazier.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Patterns.

[B]

But Clyde, you wouldn't. You wouldn't have to spend an entire game looking at Clyde dressed that way, right? This is like, before and after. This is for, like, you know, his commercials and stuff, the magazine spreads. This is a different thing where, like, how many cutaways during an LSU game are we getting to Kimoki?

[A]

I went to watch lsu, stuck with it the whole game, and I was excited to see what Kim Mulkey was going to come out in. And she came out in a green number. Powerful, bright. I was like, yes, this is. This is her. Tiger woods wearing red on a Sunday. Now, look, by the way, her counterpart, Dawn Staley is. I would say it's the opposite, but also great. It's seemingly like she asked GQ like, hey, can you style me? And they were like, we got you in Gucci and Balenciaga. And, like, in a variation, not like high fashion, but it doesn't read.

[B]

It doesn't read that way.

[A]

You know, it reads as expensive athleisure.

[B]

Well, I would even go up a notch. It's like, she's going to the club, right? What's the comfiest thing I can wear to the club?

[A]

It is. It is built for comfort.

[B]

This is not athleisure, this TLC business over here. She's 54, I believe.

[A]

54?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's 54 from Philly.

[B]

I just think that there is something playful here. Kim Mulkey is also playing, but she's playing with. Right. She. She knows that she's here to, like, cause some alarm.

[A]

Yeah, she's like a bird of paradise.

[B]

She's at a paint party is what she is. This is a totally different flavor of thing. Dawn Staley is having fun. Fun with just herself. Right? And it's funny that she had troll heads. Kim Muli on those clothes because. Or what read as troll hair. Anyway. Because we're being trolled. She. She is trolling. Correct, Everybody. I dare you to say something about my get up.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I dare you. Anyway, Dawn Staley, this is, like, combination, 80s. Sorry, 90s 80s. She's like. She's like the baddest huxtable, right? She is doing.

[A]

Subverting a dress code. It's like, yes, I am wearing a sweater, a cardigan, but it is going to be tattered. But in that way that's clearly expensive.

[B]

My jewelry is beaded. It is African. It is not made of gold or diamonds or platinum. So take that to the extent that there is even a dress code in the wood NBA. But I love. I love these clothes. She. You don't even have my favorite Dawn Stale.

[A]

Oh, which one is that?

[B]

There's one that she's wearing like a sweater that looks like a Basquiat threw up on some fabric. And it's got little tassels at the bottom, and it's long and loose and baggy. And she's wearing these great baggy leather pants that have these grommets all over them, like the way a worker's. The way work pants have those grommets. Except the grommets completely reframe the middle of her inner thigh, essentially.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The problem, she's wearing them.

[A]

I'm looking this up with rubber clogs.

[B]

Like platform rubber clogs. It reminds me if like a post Beyonce, Jay Z song, if a 4. If a track from 4:44 had a garment, this would be it. This. This is it right here. Give it a Grammy.

[A]

But confidence. This reads as confidence.

[B]

We're talking about the freedom of expression. Right? The thing that we've been talking about this whole time is about, like, what.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What we. What we should have the right to do with our bodies under all circumstances. And in the same way that it clearly isn't regulated that all the players have to wear the same shoe in any sport, everybody seems to be wearing different things on the. On the floor, on the court, on the field, whatever. I also don't. Does not seem to. I don't know what the rules are that say that anybody has to wear anything.

[A]

I believe you can wear whatever you want at this point.

[B]

But it's telling to me that on every single one of these teams, all of the coaches, the entire coaching staff on every single team in the league is wearing the exact same outfit. Right. Same getup. And I don't know what is really being aspired to more than like what these men would say. I guarantee. I want somebody to call you and dispute this if I'm wrong. Pablo only wants to hear from you if you are on the coaching staff of one of these teams.

[A]

51385 Pablo, leave us a voicemail.

[B]

Yeah, I think that what they would say if this is not mandated by a team or the league. And it could be, but I'm just going to say these guys all think it feels good. Just feels nice. I don't have to think about what to wear.

[A]

Oh, there's. Okay.

[B]

So I'm. I'm here to. I'm here to like do the stats for the game. I'm not trying to look good.

[A]

Wesley, your notebook, your little notebook. I don't have to think about any of that because I'm here about. I'm here to give results.

[B]

Right? But I call bull because sports had been doing perfectly fine for decades with men wearing full ass suits, making it work, winning championships, dominating sports. I just don't, I don't buy that this look is, is more comfortable. Just wear the same suit every night. Rick Patino.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

At 71 years old, the all white. All white and the last one he did had no tie and was boucle. I mean it had tooth. It's just crazy. There's no excuse for these people. I. But again, I want, I would love to hear what they would have to say about why they choose to go this route. Is there one, is there one assistant coach who isn't like, man, I just got, I just got this great suit the other day. Electric blue.

[A]

Think about what that decision would be like. It would be the decision to look unlike everyone else in your phalanx.

[B]

Right? The decision to deliberately say to fit out.

[A]

To fit out.

[B]

Right. To lit. To fit out and to fit out.

[A]

Have you seen this photo before? Can we go to 1977? A gentleman wearing a turtleneck, all black.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

You know who this is?

[B]

Is it Bob Fosse? When did he, what team did he coach?

[A]

It looks like Bob Foster.

[B]

Is it Tommy Toon?

[A]

It is. Hubie Brown.

[B]

Wow. Hubie Brown. Really?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Are you B. Brown right now?

[A]

90 year old. I've seen literally everything that's happened in basketball. I've been alive longer than the NBA. Hubie Brown, wow. Is dressed like he's about to walk between two skyscrapers.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

On a high wire.

[B]

That.

[A]

God bless, God bless.

[B]

That's very good for you. I think we're done here. That's amazing. I'm assuming that jacket, that window pane jacket that's. That's hanging there probably goes over this, but I hope not.

[A]

I hope not.

[B]

That is. He's got bell bottom.

[A]

Even just the body language of like his two hands.

[B]

Comfort, comfort, comfort.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

Like he is fine with himself and.

[A]

He looks like he is ready to go coach and move and yell and do everything that you think you need athleisure to do.

[B]

Pablo. When I lived in Boston, I lived in Boston for 1312 consecutive years. For a lot of the time I was there, Doc Rivers was my basketball coach. I mean, not mine, but you know, the Celtics. And I Had been so in awe of his demeanor, his composure, his. His style. Not amazing style, but like, it was very good. Right? This is a man who spent some time looking the way he looked. The first book I wanted to write, and I didn't know that I wanted to write a book until I thought about this. I was in a Sephora one day trying to find an aftershave. Like a, like a, like a, like a post shave lotion.

[A]

Yeah. How all great literature is born in the hunt for aftershave.

[B]

Somebody at the store was asking me what I was looking for. And the first thing I said to this woman was, do you know who Doc Rivers is? And she said, no. I said, well, imagine just the most delicious glass bowl of chocolate pudding you could ever hope to taste. That's what his skin looks like.

[A]

And she said, sir, this is a Sephora.

[B]

I need to call my lawyer. I wanted to write a grooming book about Doc Rivers. I wanted to write a book that went through every classification of self appearance, right? I wanted to talk about skincare. I wanted to talk about hair care. I wanted to talk about tailoring. I wanted to talk about selecting clothes to wear. I wanted to talk about socks. I want to talk about shoes. I want to talk about, like, how to perform your job in these clothes while also feeling like yourself. How do these clothes make you, Doc Rivers, feel? Because I was certainly. I could not have seen what. If you would ask me in 2012, 1518, Pablo, would Doc Rivers ever succumb to. To the quarter zip pullover? Oh, Woody. And now look at us. It's a tragedy. And I wonder, does he miss the suits? Yes.

[A]

Because it's a great question.

[B]

The thing I want to say in response to the people who would say, well, it's more comfortable. I call, I wear a suit maybe twice a week to work. I don't walk up and down a sideline. I sit at a desk. I get on and off the subway. I ride my bike to work. So sometimes I ride in the suit. If the weather is acceptable enough that I'm not going to sweat too much and I don't have to go too far. It's perfectly comfortable.

[A]

The suits, these guys, Doc Rivers can afford a suit. The suit the most made men can get.

[B]

You're walking around in a. In a bed, is how good you.

[A]

Can get on those pants.

[B]

No, I don't want to hear it. Don't tell me about comfort.

[A]

I keep on returning to the idea of golf because golf is also.

[B]

It's ru. Golf is ruining America.

[A]

It's the sport of the retired. It's the sport of someone who actually isn't going to move around that much. I mean, and Doc, it feels like he's in that phase.

[B]

Well, all of them.

[A]

He's got one foot on the course, as it were.

[B]

Pablo, you are making. This is all coming back to me. I don't want to on golf. Right. Because it's complicated. I mean it deserves a little defecation given what has transpired in the last two or three years with this Liv business.

[A]

But sure, yeah.

[B]

Cuz it, it's taken. It's like, it's like watching some of your favorite players get raptured but going the opposite direction. Ruptured. They're being ruptured.

[A]

Yeah. It's like what if Thanos snapped his fingers and they wound up in Saudi Arabia?

[B]

Come back.

[A]

I miss you person. Mr. Woods. I don't feel so good.

[B]

Golf is the after din. Is the restaurant that all the people who work in restaurants go after work. Right. Cuz they all do it. All the football players play golf, all the basketball players play golf.

[A]

Everybody play golf.

[B]

The tennis players. Everybody goes to golf when dinner's over. Right. When, when athletes dinner is over. Whatever. Because this is why I know that, that, that it's golf that's doing this and, and that golf is, is, it's. It's got to be more you. Because it's psychological as much as every other sport is. But it's also individual, therefore compounding psychological, the importance of the psychology. And if you don't feel comfort, if you don't think something is comfortable, you.

[A]

Can'T perform if you don't have your, your binky.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you're not in your comfort zone.

[B]

Binky. Let's stay with binky for a second. Because I was reading about like I really did. I mean I kind of still do like Bryson Dechambeau as a personality.

[A]

Strong, strong deltoids as well now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Oh, because he built himself into this.

[B]

His body's changed a lot over the last couple of years. Right. He's trying, he's been trying to. I don't know, he's been trying to.

[A]

Find his idea engineering his perfect form.

[B]

And what's funny is all his bodies are winning bodies. Right. Or like close to winning bodies. Right. Like he came in second at the, at the PGA the other day.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

In order to be able to perform at their, at their highest, they have to feel the most free. And if you're wearing clothes that, that impede your ability to move freely and that's of all the sports. I mean, golf and tennis, I think are the ones. I mean, all the sports. I don't. There's no most. You got to have clothes that. That make you feel like you don't weigh anything, that your body can do anything. I hear a lot of football players right now, and they're probably. They're like, I play with 35 pounds of equipment. I don't have time to hear this, but I bet you that equipment's gotten really much lighter over the years. Much more aerodynamic.

[A]

Football's also war. And so the expectations for like, what the preciousness of your wardrobe even is.

[B]

But even at the end of the day, to be able to run right, like, you have to. You have to be comfortable in order to reach these top speeds and. Cause you look at the combine stuff and those guys aren't wearing what you wear when you actually play football.

[A]

They are wearing. I mean, they are wearing nothing. They are the dancers. Bob Fosse is choreographing you be. That's right.

[B]

We've got your chorus line. I really resent because, you know, I've been walking. I walk around New York City. I live in. We live here. And I point out to my boyfriend who is not really paying attention to like, he notices what other people wear, but I'm the person who is pointing out to him that it's golf people are wearing. And it's really taken over. You've seen it. You go, I work in Midtown. You go to Midtown. And it's like being in Augusta in April, you. You wouldn't. And there are actually people walking around going to work in masters attire. They're wearing a quarter zip.

[A]

Masters pullovers ready just in case they got to go, you know, make a cut. Absolutely.

[B]

It's really wild. And so I think all these people in other sports who go play golf whenever they go play, and in some people's cases, it's often. I am shocked by how often these quarterbacks and basketball players are going to play golf.

[A]

Oh, Steph Curry loves playing golf. Loves it.

[B]

If you watch what they wear when they play, I mean, they're not dressed like Allen Iverson.

[A]

They look like an NBA assistant coach.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Meanwhile, they could be looking like Kim Mul. I believe that it was 1950 was when Major League baseball created the rule which outlawed non uniform attire in the dugout. So everybody by definition was wearing the same thing. And so this is Braves manager Brian Snicker dressed like he's about to.

[B]

I don't know like, he looks like John rocker in. In 20 more years.

[A]

It looks like he's about to. Yeah. Take or charge the mound. And what do we do with a sport that makes its managers, its coaches, literally cosplay as if they are the athletes?

[B]

I don't like it now because, I mean, look at Dusty Baker.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is a wise man. Every time somebody go. Like, every time he goes, you know, during a game, somebody comes over to old Dusty and they're like, hey, talk to me about what's going on right now. What'd you. What'd you guys. What'd you feed this team today? And old Dusty's like, you know, we just. I can't quite do Dusty. He speaks fast, but it's deep. And it's like a little. Little twangy.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But, you know, he gives a thoughtful answer, but then you look at what he's wearing, and it's like, you're the shortstop, too.

[A]

Doesn't make any sense.

[B]

And I think that they should. They. I don't want. But I'd rather. I'd rather have them wear this than the golf clothes. Right. Because then they look like McKenzie is managing the team. It's funny. I do believe that they should not be wearing the team uniform. I definitely believe that because I think the problem with baseball right now, there's a lot of problems with baseball as a. As a. As a cultural phenomenon. Like, I love baseball as a sport to watch. And, you know, I'm from Philadelphia, so I'm real happy right now, doing real well. But, you know, there was the. Earlier this season, there was the fiasco with the. With the uniforms. Right.

[A]

Oh, my God, the fanatics. Nike.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Translucent. You imagine Larry Brown wearing that.

[B]

Larry'd be like, bring it. I wanted a size smaller. And, you know, what?

[A]

Do you have a lower thread count?

[B]

It's. Yeah, it's not translucent enough. I want cellophane, please. I think, you know, it raised a lot of interesting questions about what's important with the uniform. I think we were focused on the wrong thing. I just think the sport needs tighter uniforms again.

[A]

Tighter uniforms.

[B]

Tighter uniforms. Go back and go back to 1987. Find. Go to the. Find me a Dutch Dalton picture. Find Darren Dalton. We'll just keep staying with the Phillies. Mike Schmidt. And there was no spandex back then. Right. Like, I mean, there was probably. Probably. There's definitely spandex, but it wasn't in these uniforms. Like, it's just amazing to me. What, like, go to the steroid era. Right. Where the guys had I mean, Canseco, like Brady Anderson.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, they were giving and they knew it.

[A]

Their bodies were straining against the. And I'll use this.

[B]

And it didn't stop them at all.

[A]

In the double entendre. Straining against the bonds imposed upon them. Yes. Rippling.

[B]

I mean, they were professional wrestlers. Right. Those guys.

[A]

What they didn't anticipate was that one day Don Zimmer would be thrown to the ground.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

While wearing the clothes of the people doing the throwing.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Don't. Don Zimmer and Pedro Martinez. Oh, that's awful. Oh, man, this is deep. Because. Do you think, do you think that would have happened to Don Zimmer if he were wearing, like, a fedora and a trench coat and a suit? Do you think that really would have happened to him?

[A]

I feel like the uniform was an invitation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To Pedro Martinez.

[B]

That, like, I remember thinking, God, this.

[A]

Is sad.03American League Championship.

[B]

We couldn't find this guy a proper. Proper clothes. Because it didn't. His uniform didn't fit.

[A]

It did not.

[B]

No matter what. Like, whether he was too old to be in it is a separate question. The uniform he had did not fit. And so. Oh, man, this is a really. This is a great existential question to, like, come back to, because I don't have an alternative suggestion that is palatable. Even with a shorter baseball game now, all the options are bad. Baseball's played in the summer, so you can't wear what the soccer coaches do when it's cold. You can't wear a big puffy coat and a, and a, and a vest. And, you know, you can't wear a thousand dollar piece of outerwear.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So that's not much of a solution. I don't want to see a polo. These guys also. Have you seen these guys when they're not in their, in their, in their work attire? Do you don't want them thinking for themselves? Not with clothes. You really don't want it. We're in a moment, and we've been in this moment for almost, for eight years now. Like longer, really. Nine years. Because I would consider Trump's considering whether to get in the presidential race part of our slide into this authoritarian moment. Right. Where it's like knocking at the door of our democracy again and really, like, threatening to, like, blow it down. And I think that our distrust of expertise and our willingness to invest some trust into an authoritarian idea means that for people who do not agree with that, you also don't want to necessarily be deemed an authority. Leadership is not sexy right now.

[A]

Oh. There is a resentment of the institution as a concept.

[B]

And I think that the more an institution can align itself with its workers, its workforce, to remove the strata and hierarchy out of it, because at the end of the day, the players are making more than the people who, you know, run the teams.

[A]

Yes, right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is also true. This is why sports is a insane place to negotiate all of these competing power dynamics.

[B]

But it also is the perfect place because it's a. It's a hot house and a metaphor and a microcosm. And I just feel like as long as the people who are making decisions about where. Which plays to run, like where people stand, what move should be made next? Who goes in and out of the games? Those people. I don't know, that they need to look like the people that they're pulling in and out. Right. I think that, like, we just have to restore some kind of trust here so that we don't have to be afraid of a person who signifies authority. And maybe personhood is beside the point when we're talking about playing sports. I don't know. Definitely presents nicely on tv because you don't have to think about the people on the sidelines. Except, you know, you watch the Knicks and you see, you know, you. You track injured players, who's on the bench and what are they wearing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so there is some spectacle down there.

[A]

Oh. I mean, the spectacle is the point, though. The spectacle is what's lacking to me when these guys are not trying as hard to present themselves as it seems like the players are doing at every given opportunity. To me, it makes the event seem smaller. When Paul Blart is coaching on the sideline, I don't expect the players to wear the made to measure Italian three piece suit, but when the coach can, and used to, and I would argue now, as I increasingly am radicalized into. Into this position, I think we'd be better off as a. As a spectacle, as a. As a. As a species.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

If everybody looked like they really, really cared.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

About what they're doing.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I. But I'm sure a person like Nick Nurse or Tom Thibodeau would be like, don't you see? I care? I'm yelling the entire game. I'm a. I'm a human hemorrhoid. I'm going to burst at any minute.

[A]

This mother. You're wearing a cardigan. Goddamn. What the Are you. You're wearing shorts right now.

[B]

I don't know. There's so many competing forces here. Comfort, trust, authority. Lowering the temperature on the different. On the like, sort of striated differences between us. Like, we are all just people. So why don't we just dress the same? It'll make things easier.

[A]

Right, Right. We're beginning to make arguments for why they have uniforms in Catholic schools. Yeah, like. Yeah, let's remove individualizing.

[B]

Right. It is kind of. I mean, confirmation conformation.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So this is what I miss. What I miss is the ability to look at a person, a coach, on a sideline. Forget about even the formality, which I am nostalgic for. Simply, I am nostalgic for the choice that this person made. Showing up to this event, having had to decide. What does festive attire mean?

[B]

I mean. All right, I think you did it. I think we're done. I think we're done.

[A]

You did it, Wesley. Boris, thank you for your notebook.

[B]

I mean, we're coming for you, Rick. We're coming to save you.

[A]

Please, God, before it's too late. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out A Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time.

[B]

Sam.