Enter the Dungeon: An IRL Showdown with Mark Cuban on Kawhi-Gate

Summary

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Pablo Torre Finds Out • Enter the Dungeon: An IRL Showdown with Mark Cuban on Kawhi-Gate (Oct 14, 2025)

Overview

In this fiery, in-depth episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out, Pablo engages in a long-awaited, evidence-driven tête-à-tête with Dallas Mavericks minority owner, entrepreneur, and Shark Tank star Mark Cuban. The conversation centers on "Kawhi-Gate": the reporting and surrounding controversy of a $48M “no-show” endorsement deal between star NBA player Kawhi Leonard and Aspiration, a green finance company weaponized as a possible cap circumvention scheme for the LA Clippers. Cuban, a Bombastic defender of Steve Ballmer, the Clippers’ owner and friend, steps into Torre’s “dungeon” studio to challenge Pablo’s hard-hitting multi-episode investigation and confront the core allegations. Their sprawling discussion weaves together reporting, timelines, NBA business intrigue, and inside-industry banter, interrogating what’s fact, speculation, and the nature of billionaire trust in a climate of fraud.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Cuban’s Current Life & Why He’s in New York

• Cuban is in New York for a healthcare conference, consulting with unions about his disruptive pharmacy startup, costplusdrugs.com. (03:58)
  • Quote: “Just casually trying to up change healthcare.” – Mark Cuban [02:26]
• Candid banter establishes Cuban as both highly active and distracted by multiple business tracks.

2. Setting the Stage: Ballmer, Aspiration, and Cap Circumvention

• Pablo frames the recent reporting: Steve Ballmer, via Aspiration, invested in a sponsorship and “endorsement” deal with Kawhi.
• The core question: Was the $48M hidden/never-announced deal with Kawhi a secret method to supplement his salary, circumventing NBA salary cap rules?
• Cuban acknowledges heavy social media chatter on the subject and his own “Team Ballmer” tweets, but disputes core allegations. (07:10)
  • Quote: “You typed a total of 17,053 words in 36 days.” – Pablo Torre [07:12]

3. Marketing Rationale vs. Cap Circumvention

• Cuban’s argument: The lack of deal announcement wasn’t because of cap chicanery, but because Aspiration had just closed a bigger deal with the Red Sox and didn’t want to “step on” the PR (07:58).
  • Quote: “Rule number one in marketing… you don’t step on it [a big announcement] with another announcement.” – Mark Cuban [24:47]
• Pablo counters that Aspiration regularly announced celebrity partnerships, making the secrecy around Kawhi’s much larger deal inexplicable.
  • Quote: “Why did no one ever say this deal existed at all, in any way, ever?” – Pablo Torre [10:21]

4. The Business, The Fraud, The Payouts

• Cuban details Aspiration’s shaky finances, the personal motivations of co-founder Joe Sandberg (who later pleaded guilty to wire fraud), and the company’s desperate fundraising cycles.
• The two spar over whether Sandberg’s motivations were personal (to gain proximity/social capital with Ballmer and the NBA elite) or if he knowingly skirted NBA rules via the deal.
  • Quote: “None of this has anything to do with Aspiration’s best interest. Joe Sandberg only cares about Joe Sandberg.” – Mark Cuban [22:18]
• Pablo’s theory remains: The only reason for the secret, outsized deal was to benefit Kawhi/Clippers in a manner parallel to publicly rejected asks of the Raptors and Lakers.

5. Deal Structure, Payments, and Timeline

• Pablo points out the deal value ($48M) matches the tax differential between what the Raptors could offer vs. the Clippers—another “coincidence.”
  • Quote: “190 [million] minus 141 is 49… The deal is 48. It’s 48.” – Pablo Torre [47:12]
  • Cuban responds this is mere coincidence and not how contracts are constructed, dismissing the parallel.
• They debate the flow of funds: Ballmer’s $50M investment, Aspiration’s lack of liquidity, Kawhi’s delayed (and partial) payments, and the role of Clippers co-owner Dennis Wong wiring in money days before a Leonard payment.

6. Leadership, Knowledge, and Inside Baseball

• Cuban offers color on standard owner knowledge of player sponsorships, asserting he would often be unaware of “side deals” with team sponsors unless it affected the fan experience or conflicted with team interests (38:01).
  • Quote: “I would have no idea. I wouldn’t care.” – Mark Cuban [39:17]
• Debate over whether the Clippers organization, including Ballmer, knew about or were involved in any rule-breaking; Cuban maintains Ballmer is more likely a victim of Sandberg’s fraud than a co-conspirator.

7. The Role of Dennis Wong & the Suspicious Payment Timing

• Pablo fixates on Dennis Wong’s December investment ($1.99M) landing nine days before a $1.75M payment was finally made to Kawhi, months overdue.
  • Quote: “Are you suggesting that is another coincidence?” – Pablo Torre [64:56]
  • Cuban argues it could be a bridge investment, or just a function of Sandberg fronting for his own interests, rather than evidence of a cap circumvention maneuver.

8. Charity Connections and Billionaire Social Circles

• Pablo probes Ballmer’s $1.875M of donations to a Sandberg-linked charity, wondering why the support persisted after the fraud surfaced.
• Cuban suggests high-net-worth giving isn’t always aware or involved; torpedoes the notion of a vast billionaire cabal operating in lockstep.
  • Quote: “It’s not like we all hang out—the whole billionaire meme thing.” – Mark Cuban [98:14]

9. Cap Circumvention Precedent and Cuban’s Own Scandals

• Cuban admits he’s previously been accused of CBA shenanigans (the 2015 DeAndre Jordan fine, Dirk Nowitzki “sweetheart” deal), but vehemently denies any rule-breaking with Dirk. Pablo presents receipts debunking internet conspiracies about the Mavericks’ handling of Nowitzki’s contract and related documentary rights. (90:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You tied specifically the $50-million-dollar investment to the $28-million out to Kawhi. Right, but they weren’t tied at all. No connection.” – Mark Cuban [50:35]
• “I want to agree… that Steve Ballmer did not know at the outset he was going to get victimized.” – Pablo Torre [52:31]
• “Billionaires are people too.” – Pablo Torre [98:10]
• “That’s what criminals do. They sell their image.” – Mark Cuban, on Joe Sandberg [69:21]
• “My disappointment is only one folder access.” – Mark Cuban [99:47]
• When Pablo brings up Reddit and Bill Simmons’ conspiracy theory about Dirk’s deal: “We did a $100,000 deal for U.S. distribution rights for ten years… Thanks for dispelling the nonsense.” – Mark Cuban [92:30]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 02:00–03:30 • Cuban’s life, Cost Plus, and why he’s in New York
• 03:48–06:07 • Banter, career, and lead-up to the real subject
• 07:10–09:20 • Social media chatter, Team Ballmer, and Aspiration’s secret deal
• 09:30–13:00 • Why wasn’t the Kawhi deal publicly announced?
• 14:00–19:00 • Aspiration’s business, fraud allegations, and the deal’s rationale
• 21:00–25:00 • Layering the timeline, financial desperation, and evidence
• 33:00–36:45 • Getting into the documents, payments, and “the folder”
• 37:39–41:10 • Clippers’ internal awareness of the Kawhi deal
• 47:00–51:00 • Matching math: Deal value, salary caps, and defending Ballmer
• 53:02–59:45 • Aspiration’s default, investment disclosures, and the Dennis Wong wire
• 64:00–68:00 • Why did Dennis Wong wire money? Arguments about coincidence
• 69:21–73:10 • Joe Sandberg’s motivations, image, fraud, and lawsuits
• 84:13–87:09 • Ballmer’s charity donations to Sandberg’s foundation
• 89:01–91:44 • Cuban’s irritation, episode one’s “smoking gun,” and Dirk’s contract
• 93:07–94:17 • Luca Doncic and the Mavericks trade as comedic fodder
• 95:20–97:00 • Dennis Wong’s presence in Dallas and nonprofit scene connections
• 97:39–99:12 • Cuban’s communications, what the NBA and Adam Silver know
• 99:16–100:00 • “Are you still Team Ballmer?” Final word

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Takeaways

• Cuban remains a forceful, combative defender of Steve Ballmer, chalking up the secret (and partial) Kawhi payout to the self-serving, fraudulent manipulations of Joe Sandberg, not a Clippers-led scheme.
• Pablo Torre stands by the reporting: that the structure, secrecy, and payment logic of the deal—and the pattern of NBA cap circumvention attempts—raise red flags that only deeper investigation and transparency can answer.
• No “smoking gun” is produced; neither party convinces the other fully, but the episode offers an unparalleled view of how billionaires, sports franchises, and fraud risk intertwine—and the murky nature of “intent” in high-stakes business.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in investigative sports journalism meeting boardroom intrigue. While Cuban’s candor and business acumen provide color and skepticism, Pablo’s document-driven narrative ensures listeners are never far from the facts. Their mutual respect, persistent disagreements, and robust debate leave the central mystery unresolved for now—an object lesson in how hard truth can be to pin down inside the “dungeon” of modern American sports capitalism.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds out I am Pablo Torre and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Mark Cuban]

Kudos to you for finding your sources. No, no issues there. The conclusions you came to on Steve Ballmer and that was wrong.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

It's a dungeon in here.

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to the dungeon.

[Mark Cuban]

Good to see you, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming in. Yeah, of course.

[Pablo Torre]

Water? Bathroom.

[Mark Cuban]

Already got the bathroom.

[Pablo Torre]

Smelling salts?

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, hopefully not. Even though I haven't got much sleep.

[Pablo Torre]

I'll take it. I was gonna say.

[Mark Cuban]

Good to see you, Patrick.

[Pablo Torre]

Nice to meet you. I was gonna say I. You're a wildly busy person. So this is a lot of fun for you to do this for us.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. Cost plus has been driving me crazy.

[Pablo Torre]

That's the pharmaceutical industry, you know.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, just casually trying to up change healthcare.

[Pablo Torre]

Why not? Test, test, test.

[Mark Cuban]

That's where you want it lined?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, if you could, that'd be great. Look at that.

[Mark Cuban]

Double, double, double fisted.

[Pablo Torre]

Double fisted.

[Mark Cuban]

It's the only way you roll, Pablo. I know.

[Pablo Torre]

Just the finest, the most luxurious.

[Mark Cuban]

Just for reference, before we start, this dial is for your own voice. And the second one is for Pablos. Turn down Pablo. Turn up mine.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, I. I promised over email this would be respectful. I totally do your Thing.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, I have to go where you want to go. I'm easy peasy.

[Pablo Torre]

The thing I want to start with is to say thank you for giving me the line that now leads my resume, which is a great podcast entertainer, great acting skills, but in terms of getting to the real real, not so much.

[Mark Cuban]

There you go. I'm here to oblige.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to do this in a way that's probably, hopefully a little different, a little more fun than like Frost Nixon.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

I actually just want to understand, like your life right now. I mean, you're in New York. Thank you for being here in studio formally. Why are you here? What's going on?

[Mark Cuban]

Like, I just did a conference, a healthcare conference for 32 BJ. It's a union and they work with a variety of unions and organizations. So I came in to talk about what we're doing with costplusdrugs.com to reduce the cost of pharmacy, to change healthcare, to help guide them as they negotiate new contracts. Just the basic stuff. I had had it on the schedule for a couple months already.

[Pablo Torre]

Just the basic stuff. I wasn't sure. It was like. Was this stop in New York part of your larger plan to eventually become the chair of the securities and Exchange Commission?

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, right. That was my goal all along. Right, you got me, Pablo. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Finding out. All the time finding out. But you did want to be SEC chair for.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I had no, no interest in being SEC chair.

[Pablo Torre]

You said it at one point.

[Mark Cuban]

No, that was me with Gary Gensler because I thought he was an idiot.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, well, this is why I ask the follow up questions.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, that's what you do.

[Pablo Torre]

But some of the bio for people who are. It's funny again for me to be like, by the way, I talk to Mark Cuban a lot these days. But for those who are not familiar with your oeuvre, minority owner. Now, Uvra.

[Mark Cuban]

What does that even mean?

[Pablo Torre]

Your body of work.

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, my body of work. Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a little French. I'm trying to.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Trying to class you up.

[Mark Cuban]

There you go. I need all the help classing me up as I can get.

[Pablo Torre]

No, look, you're the minority owner of The Dallas Mavericks. 27%. We've established that. Also, you co own a major league pickleball team, right? The Dallas Flash.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. Do they change the name to Flash?

[Pablo Torre]

Are they Dallas Flash?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't even know. I did as a favor to a friend, but I like pickleball some. It's fun to watch.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your Dallas Flash. That's right. And you know, you mentioned great acting skills.

[Mark Cuban]

Great acting skills. You see me in Play Dirty here recently?

[Pablo Torre]

I watched it this week. What? Hello. How was the steak? Fine. Do I.

[Mark Cuban]

The lady of Ontario.

[Pablo Torre]

I want her. And you are?

[Mark Cuban]

Impatient.

[Pablo Torre]

Where is she? Mark Wahlberg brandishing a firearm. Heavens. At a white tablecloth restaurant in front of you and an associate.

[Mark Cuban]

Do you have any concept who the you're talking to?

[Pablo Torre]

You're not answering my question.

[Mark Cuban]

I don't have to, moron. I'm one of the most important people on the planet. This isn't some rat infested alley.

[Pablo Torre]

You're out of your league. You're dealing with a different class of people now. What a smirk.

[Mark Cuban]

You know, how long have I.

[Pablo Torre]

Jesus Christ.

[Mark Cuban]

The best part was Mark Wahlberg was not there when we were shooting it.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, that was.

[Mark Cuban]

That was all acting. That's just me putting myself in the moment.

[Pablo Torre]

A method smirk.

[Mark Cuban]

Yes. The fear. The smirk. There's getting shot.

[Pablo Torre]

There's just a zillion things I actually do want to ask you about. I want to get to at some point. Like Dallas and Mavs and Luca, if that's okay. At some point at the end, maybe. But the reason, of course, you're here is because you remain by far the most devoted, most famous, most polarizing, most public member of Team Bomber. Yes, sir, as you have come to call it. Do you know how much you have tweeted about this story in my reporting?

[Mark Cuban]

Not really, no.

[Pablo Torre]

You have sent 160 tweets.

[Mark Cuban]

Most of them were just little tiny responses. A couple of them were. Were articles. Yeah, yeah. The one time was like the 4, 000 words or whatever.

[Pablo Torre]

You typed a total of 17,053 words in 36 days.

[Mark Cuban]

A lot of that is chatgpt generated.

[Pablo Torre]

But yes, I suspected that. I feel no less insulted by that. But nonetheless, I'm here to confront you and the robot.

[Mark Cuban]

Please do.

[Pablo Torre]

And I just want to try to keep this accessible, as always, to, like, the general audience. So I guess the conversation which I want to begin here starts with a simple question. Why do you think the sheer existence of the aspiration sponsorship deal with Kawhi Leonard was never announced in any way through a press release or anything, ever.

[Mark Cuban]

The deal was signed, if I'm remembering correctly, 4-4-22, but it was dated April 1, March 30 was a much bigger announcement and they didn't want to step on each other is the first. First reason. Do you know what that announcement is, please? Oh, I thought you would know.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no. What announcement?

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, that's when they announced their deal with the Boston Red Sox, which was an $80 million deal. And that's where they were going to get their logo on the field, right by the batter's box. Not bad. By the. On deck circle, all that stuff. So it was an $80 million deal. Rule number one in marketing, when you're getting PR and you've signed a big deal, you don't step on it. And so once I saw that they had done this big deal and realized how big it was, that made perfect sense why they didn't announce it then. Right. And then after that, the people who had done the deal, when I shouldn't say the people, because Joe Sandberg did the deal, but they changed over the focus of their business. And as best we can tell, no one wanted him there and no one wanted to do the deal. And so there was no reason to announce it. That's my perception.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, so just the Red Sox deal. We mentioned that in episode one of the show. I'm glad you bring it into this context, because it was another deal, another real sports team that aspiration got into business with. Of course. So let's say that aspiration didn't want to announce this. Kawhi didn't want to announce this. No one wanted to.

[Mark Cuban]

No one said no. No. Now you're putting words into the system here, Right? So there's a difference between making the mark the right marketing move. Right. So you just signed an $80 million deal with the Red Sox, and the Red Sox come out and say, like the Clippers did, September of 21. So that would be six months earlier or whatever. Right. That how important the whole carbon credits thing was and conservation was to them. Right. So a big part of the Red Sox deal was very similar to the Clippers deal. In fact, they look. I'm gonna use my bet. In fact, they look very similar to each other. I'm trying to remember.

[Pablo Torre]

I am. I am with you. No, I.

[Mark Cuban]

So they're very similar to each other. So. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

I've seen hundreds of emails with the Red Sox and aspiration. The premise here again, is we're zeroing out the carbon footprint.

[Mark Cuban]

Right? So it was very important to the Red Sox like it was to Ballmer. So nothing unusual there. Right. So the question becomes, right, why did the marketing people not do anything with Kawhi on one hand? That's the question you asked me, right?

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, the question actually was simpler. It was, why did no one ever say that this deal existed at all in any way, ever?

[Mark Cuban]

Well, first of all, we don't know that for certain.

[Pablo Torre]

I have never seen anything. I've seen this for five episodes and no one's ever provided a counter argument or a factual correction or evidence.

[Mark Cuban]

Two ways to activate the deal. One is like you're expecting, let's do the tweet. The things that were in the contract that he was never asked to do.

[Pablo Torre]

I actually just want to be very clear and specific here. I just mean they announced with Celebrities all of the time. We signed Leo DiCaprio and we signed Drake and we signed Robert Downey Jr. And Orlando Bloom and Cindy Crawfords.

[Mark Cuban]

When did they announce all those things?

[Pablo Torre]

All in this time period?

[Mark Cuban]

When did they announce those?

[Pablo Torre]

Is your argument going to be that by the time they signed Kawhi Leonard to a deal that was four times larger than everyone else combined in that celebrity roster, they had decided to no longer care about celebrities?

[Mark Cuban]

No, my point was they were not profitable, but they were fully and well funded in 2021. And they were run with the goal of having a consumer product, the credit card from Aspiration bank. And what you do with the consumer product is night and day different than what you do with a B2B product. Right. So making those announcements make perfect sense now come April of 22, they were in deep. Right, Right. And as you know, and I think you're. Some of the folks have told you that the conversation. Cause we know uncle Dennis incorporated KL2 Aspire, I think it was called in November of 21. So they had been talking for a long time and it had been delayed obviously for a considerable period of time. So the fact that it was delayed is one indicator because if they were really excited to sign the deal and use Kawhi, the marketing team would have been pushing. Let's get this done. Because we really have a lot of places for him to use.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. The opposite of course, happens. Right. The marketing people didn't want it. The CMO doesn't know who Kawhi Leonard is even.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So the question is why was there a deal?

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, I think the question is still why. Just to keep on the first question, why past April did no one mention that they had signed Kawhi Leonard at all?

[Mark Cuban]

They were in a different business at.

[Pablo Torre]

That point, not as of that month.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. If you look at their numbers from September 30th of 2021, the last real numbers they had that they published.

[Pablo Torre]

So I guess what I'm saying is what we agree on is this was a bad deal for Aspiration to sign as of April 2020.

[Mark Cuban]

Not necessarily. Right. So here's what you haven't discussed at all yet. Right. And that is activation. And I'm not talking about traditional marking activation. So you've been to the Staples Center.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So, you know, here's the court level seats. And then a lot of people go into the tunnel and they have that club that's there. Right. Where all the celebrities hang out and everything. And then the people who buy the court, the front row seats, have access to that. Correct. And they see the players walking through. And it's not unusual because it's happened to me. I'm sure it's happened to you. Where people, fans right there that have come from the court will stop you and take pictures, introduce you to customers. Da, da, da, da, da. We have no evidence one way or the other, but I'd be willing to bet that a dollar to a dime, right. That Joe Sandberg took full advantage of that and was able to use Kawhi just to take a picture to say hello, just like I've done a thousand times with the Mavericks. Right. Oh, we signed a deal with sponsor. Hey, Mark, a sponsor's in town or hey, Mark, the sponsor is going to be at the game. Will you take pictures with them? Sure, sure. Easy peasy. Right. Just have them in the tunnel before halftime or after the game. Easy access. So when I talk to pe. The one person, two people I know, but one person I talked to at that worked at Aspiration, they said, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I love how you've been doing reporting, by the way.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. Just because they reached out to me. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

When I hear about them reaching out to you.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, I know. And I know. And I said I was fine with it. Right. So I had no problem.

[Pablo Torre]

And likewise.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. And so it's just normal business. Right. So the issue is that the guy that's going to one of the guys going to jail, Joe Sandberg. Right. He obviously was the one that did the deal. Because even in your tweet, it said Joe is. Is slow rolling the deal. No, he said to Joe from Uncle Dennis that Mike, the.

[Pablo Torre]

The lawyer was the general counsel general.

[Mark Cuban]

Was slow rolling the deal. Right. That it was obvious that Joe Sandberg had signed. So the value proposition here, where we disagree and we don't really have detail one way or the other, but where we disagree is the value proposition wasn't necessarily to the marketing people at Aspiration. It was to Joe Sandberg specifically.

[Pablo Torre]

Why do we disagree about that?

[Mark Cuban]

Well, because I think that's where he utilized Kawhi. He Got his money's worth.

[Pablo Torre]

I fully agree that Joe Sandberg was the one to benefit from this deal. It wasn't the marketing of Aspiration. The question is, what was the goal Joe Sandberg wanted to achieve? And you have this theory that Joe was using it to glad hand with Kawhi and during the games that the Clippers were playing or before or after or whatever.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I. I've even evolved that theory.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, but. But I guess what I'm saying is the reason Joe Sandberg wanted to do it was because of course he had a relationship with Steve Ballmer. And there was an agreement, hey, we're gonna do this deal that no one ever is going to know about that. But what I'm saying is I know.

[Mark Cuban]

That you're making that up.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no. I have nine sources that told me that.

[Mark Cuban]

And then I know nine sources that worked in the accounts payable department.

[Pablo Torre]

Not all. Not all finance. Not all finance. Mark, Mark, Mark. So look, what I want to make clear here is a couple things. Because you're really good at talking and being shot by Mark Wahlberg. Incredible at both those things. There is simply no evidence that this deal was ever announced in any way. And the reason I keep on harping on this is because at a certain point, if you are Joe Sandberg, selfish guy who wants to boast and peacock about all the things he's done, you would want to say no. We also have this deal with this guy. No.

[Mark Cuban]

So you're not. You don't. So if you look at Joe Samberg, right. What was his job at Aspiration?

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, so this question matters. I have many ways that I can talk about this for a very long time. Joe Sandberg was not actually an employee of Aspiration.

[Mark Cuban]

Kidding.

[Pablo Torre]

But what he was was the co founder. And they want to peacock about all of the celebrities, all the sports teams. I have a deal with Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert Downey Jr. Orlando Bloom, Drake, the Crawfords and Kawhi Leonard, who he paid for the price, by the way. The price of what you're saying the glad handing theory. $48 million.

[Mark Cuban]

No, he did. And he paid him 3.5 million.

[Pablo Torre]

The agreement, the contract says.

[Mark Cuban]

But if you know you have no money to pay the agreement, it's meaningless.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no, no.

[Mark Cuban]

He knew he had no money to pay it.

[Pablo Torre]

Mark.

[Mark Cuban]

This like me saying, pablo, I'm going to give you $200 million right now.

[Pablo Torre]

So what we need to establish here is that Joe Sandberg may know right at the time of the deal, he has no intention of paying the total term of the deal.

[Mark Cuban]

He has no money.

[Pablo Torre]

But Kawhi Leonard absolutely thinks it's a. It's a real contract.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So the point is the intent of what we're doing.

[Mark Cuban]

No, the intent on Uncle Dennis's in Kawhi's side is obvious. The intent on Joe Sandberg's side is not. Right. So why Dennis wants to get paid.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so we. We established that there is no evidence at all that this deal was ever announced anywhere.

[Mark Cuban]

Unless, I mean, not publicly. No. You. We agree not to waiting, Man.

[Pablo Torre]

I was hoping you might bring it in. I've been waiting for anyone to tell me why was this a top secret deal that they never talked about? My theory is they wanted to keep it secret because it was a $48 million no show contract that circumvented the cap. Your theory is something that is not that.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, let's move on. No, no, no, no, no. Not just let's move on. Because what's at stake? Because at the exact same time the Kawhi deal was signed, right? Joe Sandberg was also trying to take over Blue Apron, and he didn't have the money to do that either. And so he was looking to do an acquisition that was. I don't know. I don't know the exact amount, but there's plenty of evidence on documentation out there where he effectively was lying to say he had the money in May of 22 or whenever the date was.

[Pablo Torre]

Was eventually pleading guilty to wire fraud.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, for sure. But you've got to look at from here. So you want to know what the intent was. So you're asking the question. We agree that Joe Sandberg initiated the deal and negotiated the deal with Uncle Dennis and Mitch.

[Pablo Torre]

The initiation. I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm merely saying negotiated the deal.

[Mark Cuban]

Are you agreeing that Joe Sandberg was the one who negotiated this deal?

[Pablo Torre]

I cannot tell you that he's the only one who was involved. Mark, I'm a journalist. I know that he was involved. But is he the only one in the room negotiating?

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, so I can't say that. Fine. Right. So if he's the driving force and he's taking responsibility for this, isn't it relevant what else was going on in his financial life?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, and absolutely. And so the timeline point us to is.

[Mark Cuban]

So here we are. Right? So here he is. He's committed to a deal with KAWHI that pays $1.75 million a quarter to be paid first in June. On June 30, right. Of 2022.

[Pablo Torre]

That was the first payment.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. When it was due. Right. So at the same time. At the same time, Nosy doesn't have the money. Because we know from the September 30, 2021 financials, which would have been after Ballmer put in his money, that they only had $13 million left.

[Pablo Torre]

So Ballmer puts in his money in September of 2021.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So September 30th. So he put it in September 14th or 17th, one of those two dates of 2021. And as of September 30th of 2021, according to the S4, that was filed by Inter Private, because of the SPAC that they were trying to take private.

[Pablo Torre]

Was the going to absorb, make everybody all the money. Right. Back at $2.3 billion evaluation that came up when Mark. Because Steve Ballmer and Oak Tree Capital Management invested together and resulted in this valuation of.

[Mark Cuban]

No, that's not how it works. That's not how it works.

[Pablo Torre]

But of course it is how.

[Mark Cuban]

It's not how a SPAC is value. But that's besides the point. That's not really relevant at this point.

[Pablo Torre]

I think it's deeply relevant. It speaks to why Joe Sandberg was doing the deal at all.

[Mark Cuban]

Well, that. Okay, he wanted to get the payout. Right. Because that was the only thing that.

[Pablo Torre]

He wanted to be in business with Steve Ballmer, who gave him $50 million personally alongside Oak Tree. And guess what? The SPAC that wasn't over $2 billion as a valuation was after that, roughly $300 million.

[Mark Cuban]

You're missing the point because you're trying to just drive it. Just the one thing, you know.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so I'm talking about, like, sports washing. And I think you're trying to. No. Talk about.

[Mark Cuban]

No, this.

[Pablo Torre]

Lots of other.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no. You're not letting me finish.

[Pablo Torre]

Please.

[Mark Cuban]

All right, so now we know from Joe Sandberg's perspective, he's got Kawhi that This company owns $28 million to.

[Pablo Torre]

He lost $20 million in an equity deal.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but that's coming from him personally. That's worthless.

[Pablo Torre]

And so it's relevant. But I'll.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, we're going with it. Right. So that's 1, 2. He also committed to the Red Sox to pay $7 million a year the exact same day, the day before. So that's another seven. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

They're collecting these sports deals.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. At the same time, he owes personally $145 million that he is unable to pay. And he's hoping that he can figure all this out. But what we also know is that Ballmer invested September 14th or 17th of 2021. And there are published financials that enter private book put to the SEC that shows they only have $13 million. So at the time that long, long before, I should say long before Joe Sandberg completed this deal, he knew they had no money.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, oh, oh. So we.

[Mark Cuban]

He know he knew he had all the money. Think about it. All the money. And then when you had numbers after.

[Pablo Torre]

That, you know what happened to the money? They're not counting the marketing dollars against their valuation. It's because they're just spending.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. That special. I forget what they called it.

[Pablo Torre]

It's amazing. They made up an acronym.

[Mark Cuban]

They made up an acronym. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So the point being that I fully agree and have reported that the money goes in from Ballmer and others and the money goes out almost immediately.

[Mark Cuban]

Immediately. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

It's crazy.

[Mark Cuban]

But think about that. Think about that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

So if all of this.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is to say that of course when it comes to Kawhi, Right. The question is, okay, why did they.

[Mark Cuban]

Why did they even do the deal?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And why did they even. We're circling a question for which the only rational explanation is that it wasn't in aspirations interest to do it. It was in someone else's.

[Mark Cuban]

That's. This is where we disagree. None of this has anything to do with aspirations, best interest.

[Pablo Torre]

That's what I mean. That's what I'm saying.

[Mark Cuban]

None of it.

[Pablo Torre]

None of it.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I'm saying no, Joe Sandberg only cares about Joe Sandberg. Yes, Joe Sandberg.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, no, no, hold on. I want. So Joe Sandberg benefits if aspiration goes public at a 2 plus billion valuation.

[Mark Cuban]

Of course, of course. But in order. But he also needs to survive because cash flow wise, he is toast. And he knows the company is toast because even his.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, he needs to raise money perpetually because the money is coming in.

[Mark Cuban]

That's what Charney said. Right. He needs to raise money perpetually. And what did he say to Turney? I'm going to kill you because you don't even know what I have to do to do all this stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

Right? Yes, right.

[Mark Cuban]

In the timeline, the whole thing is only about Joe Sandberg and him trying.

[Pablo Torre]

To stay out of Joe Sandberg trying to get aspiration to cash in on a two plus billion dollar spac.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

That's his right.

[Mark Cuban]

And that's what I literally get out of jail. That's what I've been writing. And you didn't mention that at all.

[Pablo Torre]

In your Episode one. Episode one.

[Mark Cuban]

We did all. You mentioned the spac. You mentioned spec, but you didn't. You didn't tie to him. Just trying to stay out of jail. But it doesn't matter.

[Pablo Torre]

I. I disagree. I think Chat GPT may be doing me a little bit of an injustice in terms of the summaries. It's present.

[Mark Cuban]

I got the transcript somewhere.

[Pablo Torre]

But anyways, that's what I mean. But look, what I want to say is when they get to April, they sign Kawhi. He's due the first payment at the.

[Mark Cuban]

End of June, and all of Ballmer's money is gone. Yes, gone. Right now you would think. Yes, you would think if there was a deal that was made between Ballmer and anybody, anybody, anybody with half a brain would say, hey, look, we've got this deal with Ballmer for whatever reason. I know what the reason is. You don't have to understand. This is Sandberg talking. You would set aside that money, no question.

[Pablo Torre]

And.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, there you go.

[Pablo Torre]

But, but do you agree that Joe Sandberg is also somebody who maybe isn't as smart as he thought he was?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't know or care all I know.

[Pablo Torre]

But I guess the point is there can be some mixture, as always, of course, cleverness. And there can be a lot of.

[Mark Cuban]

Mixtures of a lot of things, but you don't have proof one way or the other.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're going to get there. The question here I asked you was, sir, why do they never announce this deal at all? And so we're now in the weeds and that's okay.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. You know, because you're trying to make that a big deal to show it's a no show job. Right. But it's not. No, it's not applicable. It is the most.

[Pablo Torre]

Why would.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, so it's very explicable if you've ever done marketing, if you ever worked.

[Pablo Torre]

In a company, why for two years. Let's give it two years. Did they never mention it because they.

[Mark Cuban]

Changed business and they brought in a new CEO.

[Pablo Torre]

April, May, June, July, October. By October, October, November, December.

[Mark Cuban]

So I gave you the first hit, right.

[Pablo Torre]

First of all, saying that's a.

[Mark Cuban]

Let's walk through it. Let's walk through it. Right. Rule number one of marketing, if you're making one big announcement, you don't step on it with another announcement.

[Pablo Torre]

How many months does it take for a bit of breathing room?

[Mark Cuban]

You find out. Right. By the time.

[Pablo Torre]

1, 2, 3, 4.

[Mark Cuban]

But that's not 5. But wait, there's more it's not about that. You're trying to game it.

[Pablo Torre]

But it's not like that's a lot of months.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, because April 30th. Right, I'm sorry, March 30th, when they signed and announced the Red Sox deal. Big deal. Right. So you don't step on that. Okay, so the question is how many months by the time they got to. I'm trying to think when they actually changed their business model, but it was prior October, because that's when they let Czerny go and that's when they brought in Olivia. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

But they had already Albrecht, the CEO.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, the numbers were already there, as you saw in the S4, that they were making their money in business to business. They were getting killed, destroyed, had no upside whatsoever on their consumer business. So it wouldn't be the first time in the history of marketing where you sign somebody to do something pivoted in your business and decided not to use.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to add a little bit of texture because they signed him to a deal again, that is four times larger than everyone else combined, who is like a million times.

[Mark Cuban]

You keep on going to that as if it's a reflection by some insidious, you know, effort.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, let me. Not relevant.

[Mark Cuban]

What at all?

[Pablo Torre]

Let me ask you a basic question.

[Mark Cuban]

But it's not relevant at all, because.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course it is, Mark. Because it speaks to why exactly this deal was specifically the way it was constructed. It reflects an intent from someone.

[Mark Cuban]

No, the businesses were different.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just got to jump in here to clarify something about the timeline here, because the business of aspiration, which Mark was just alluding to, was not meaningfully different in April 2022, when Aspiration signed Kawhi Leonard to this top secret $28 million, no show endorsement deal from what the business of aspiration was In September of 2021, when they signed this 300 plus million dollar founding sponsorship deal with the Clippers. In fact, that Clippers deal reflected this pivot that Mark is trying to say happened after the KL2 Aspire LLC deal was broken. But that deal, the Clipper deal, was the embodiment actually of this pivot. It was the thing that was designed to draw attention to it, as Steve Ballmer himself announced at Clipper's media day in September of 2021, with, you know, a French accent of his own.

[Mark Cuban]

The piece de resistance, as we went through this is when we had a chance to really sit down and meet the folks from Aspiration. Joe Sandberg, who runs Aspirations here, will talk to you a little bit more about their company. We can talk about our partnership, but to have our first founding partner be a company that focuses in on providing services to consumers and businesses to reduce or even go negative on their own carbon footprints was a great thing, particularly.

[Pablo Torre]

We played that clip in episode one, by the way, which I do strongly encourage you to go back and listen to at some point. Not least because we also established in that episode that the top secret no show $28 million endorsement deal with Kawhi Leonard was also about this pivot. The carbon offsets as one particular deliverable in this very deliberately structured contract that we had read indicated that Leonard has to be available and participate with company to create an annual program in support.

[Mark Cuban]

Of the company's reforestation program with a tie to calculating Leonard's carbon footprint, given.

[Pablo Torre]

His annual schedule, events and travel. Boy, I'd love to see that. Well, it's hard because it didn't happen.

[Mark Cuban]

I thought you were going to say that was the one thing he did do.

[Pablo Torre]

And so if you want even more of our analysis of aspirations carbon offsets business with the Clippers and even more also on the flow of funds from Steve Ballmer to Aspiration, which was largely inspired by our first conversation on this show with Mark Cuban. That stuff happens to be in part four of this series, just in case you're curious. But I do want to return us now to the argument that I was in the middle of having with our special guest.

[Mark Cuban]

When a business is thinking it's going to be profitable and it's operating like a normal business, it's one thing. And then when the owner, the, the main guy goes and borrows money again fraudulently and all of a sudden their business is no longer a good operating business.

[Pablo Torre]

Let's say you didn't like, you had immediate buyer's remorse and you were like, whoa, we just paid this guy four times more than the biggest stars in Hollywood combined and we don't want to use him anymore, shouldn't you at least say we did it so you get something?

[Mark Cuban]

No, because then you look like a.

[Pablo Torre]

I, I mean, I think and fear that might have happened anyway.

[Mark Cuban]

Well, yeah, but they're trying to survive, right? You don't announce that you signed a guy that you. And by the way, okay, so can I. They ended up paying him less than they paid those celebrities.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you know that?

[Mark Cuban]

Because he's only been. He only was paid twice that I.

[Pablo Torre]

Have reported so far.

[Mark Cuban]

No, that anybody that's anywhere. If you back go back on the note.

[Pablo Torre]

Sources that Tell you that more than.

[Mark Cuban]

What I reported at most. So let's just do the math.

[Pablo Torre]

The bankruptcy filing says he's owed 7 million.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

The deal was 28.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so somewhere between the three and a half that I've reported in 2022. And that is a big gulf.

[Mark Cuban]

No. Right. So what happens is the 28 million when they, the day that they go bankrupt, Anything past that, where the date they file?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. A wipe off the last year.

[Mark Cuban]

So wipe us. That's 21.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So that's seven now. That's down to 14. Right. If there wasn't any other conversation or anything.

[Pablo Torre]

So at most you have information that.

[Mark Cuban]

There was conversation about that, about the remaining dollars.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I just don't think we can definitively say based on the evidence that he got paid only three and a half million dollars.

[Mark Cuban]

But think of it this way, right? Sixteen potential payments. You only knew about two of them and one of them from your first reporting. Right. You had tied specifically to Ballmer. But we know Ballmer's money was all gone by the time the agreement was even signed. So you went out and made this assertion about bomber without knowing that the money wasn't. Wasn't even available.

[Pablo Torre]

Seven sources. But I want to go past that because you don't believe sources.

[Mark Cuban]

Was the guy with the, the, the, the whatever modulated voice.

[Pablo Torre]

One of the finance department employees who was interviewed by the federal government, who's pointed me to documents that have been verified by every single. All the means.

[Mark Cuban]

He works in the accounts payable department or in the finance department.

[Pablo Torre]

I think it's easy to dismiss the sources and I can't possibly convince you otherwise. No, it's okay.

[Mark Cuban]

But it's not even just about these meetings. It's just not enough. You just. On a guy's reputation by having some guy in the AP department who's tried to tie it. Your guy said. Your guy said everybody knew. It was common knowledge that this was.

[Pablo Torre]

Circumvention in the department in which they had to make payments to Kawhi Leonard that no one could explain. There was talk about accounts payable department. Mark, you don't know who these people are. And I wish you would stop. I just, it's, it's just we can speculate.

[Mark Cuban]

I can tell by the, the form that you showed in, in your first podcast.

[Pablo Torre]

We have over 3,000 pages of documents. There are a lot of folders.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but what you showed, what you show was just an accounts payable ledger. That's all.

[Pablo Torre]

We have documents that we can get to and I want to I see a folder so I see a folder so we're I want to get to the folder mark. You keep on preventing me from getting to the folder. Fall is planting season, and did you know that many plants and trees actually do better when planted around this time of year? Well, you have to know where to start. And that's why I love fastgrowingtrees.com doesn't matter if you live in the sunny south or if the air is getting chilly. Wherever you are, their plant experts can help you find the perfect fit for your space. Now, if you're like me, you don't have a ton of time. Between raising, you know, this kid and investigating billionaires, it can be hard to find time to go to a garden center. Even if plants are in fact central to my life. Which they are. But fast growing trees makes it easy to get your dream yard or if you're like me, apartment. So order online and get your plants delivered directly to your door in just a few days without ever leaving the store. No dirt in your trunk, no awkward Uber from the garden center. No fuss at all. And all their plants and trees are grown locally in the United States, ensuring that they will thrive in your yard. For instance, I've just added a spider plant and eucalyptus to my cart and I cannot wait to see them in my living room. And if you aren't already a tree and plant expert, do not worry. They've got you covered there as well. With a full resource center, growing zone finder and plant experts ready to help you, you'll know exactly what will thrive in your backyard. Plus, every plant comes with instructions and tips on how to best care for it. And this fall they have the best deals for your yard, with up to half off on select plants and other deals. Listeners to our show also get 15% off their first purchase when using the code PTFO at checkout. That's 15 [e-mail] using the code PTFO at checkout now is the perfect time to plant. Use PTFO to save today. Offers valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. Check out the link below or in the show notes and support the show. Feeling safe in your home is one of the most important things in life. You might be scared of fire or burglary or, you know, maybe they're somewhere between zero and three active federal investigations related to your reporting going on at the same time. Whatever it is that keeps you up at night, SimpliSafe is there to help you sleep better. Simplisafe isn't just a home security system that responds. It is actually designed to stop crime before it happens. They utilize AI powered cameras that detect threats while they are still outside your house and they alert real security agents. And this is the real game changer. The agents take action while the intruder is still outside. They confront the intruder. They let them know they're being watched on camera and that the police are on their way. They can even play a loud siren and trigger a spotlight. That is real security. But don't just take my word for it. Simplisafe has been named Best Home Security system by the U.S. news & World Report five years running with no long term contracts or hidden fees. You are free to cancel anytime. Plus there's a 60 day money back guarantee so you can try it and see for yourself. I know I'm excited for my system to show UP and the 24. 7 protection it's going to provide. And right now listeners can save 50% off on SimpliSafe home security [e-mail] Pablo that's S I M P L I S A F e dot com Pablo.

[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

With access to simple personalized care that fits your life.

[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

Regrow hair in as little as three to six months.

[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

For safety, effectiveness or quality.

[Mark Cuban]

Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information.

[Pablo Torre]

Have you talked to Steve Ballmer about this? The first piece of paper in this is something that people have pointed out to me a lot and I just want to make sure that because you're saying you're not just shilling for Steve Ballmer here that you are not in fact this meme oh you busted me.

[Mark Cuban]

Yes, that's me.

[Pablo Torre]

Are you familiar with this meme?

[Mark Cuban]

No I'm not.

[Pablo Torre]

You're familiar with Apu from the Simpsons, Jumping in front of another person behind a.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I only know the episode that I did.

[Pablo Torre]

Billionaires. Yeah, billionaires.

[Mark Cuban]

I only know the episode I deal with.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm the criminal with the gun.

[Mark Cuban]

You got to watch in season 20, the episode with the billionaire's handshake.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

Three points.

[Pablo Torre]

Big three.

[Mark Cuban]

And a big D for the big C. Mark Cuban. That's me. Who is that man and why isn't.

[Pablo Torre]

His enthusiasm being punished? That's Mark Cuban, sir. He's the most flamboyant owner in the league. Do you think the Clippers knew that Kawhi had this deal with aspiration?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't know. I don't. I don't know. I mean, it wasn't the first deal that he signed with a Clipper sponsor, so I don't know.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. The Clippers knew about the previous one, the honey deal, which was the jersey patch. Why would they not know about this one?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't know. One way or the other, I would assume.

[Pablo Torre]

Would you have known if you were the owner of a team and your most important player signed a deal with.

[Mark Cuban]

Not necessarily, but probably.

[Pablo Torre]

Probably.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, possibly.

[Pablo Torre]

I think at some point. Right. If you had to speculate, like when would they have known at the very.

[Mark Cuban]

Least that they had a deal? I don't know. I mean, maybe the CEO would know. Before Ballmer would know. Yeah, before Ballmer would know. Because that's typically how I would find out. I wouldn't get a list of deals or anything like that.

[Pablo Torre]

Sure.

[Mark Cuban]

I would find out when someone said, hey, you know, would you say hi and take a picture with so and so we signed a deal with them. That's typically when I would know. Now the bigger sponsor with aspiration I would know about, obviously.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. So we agree on that, I think. Yeah. So Steve Ballmer says that he introduced. Of course.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Kawhi's camp to aspiration.

[Mark Cuban]

The introduction got made and then they were off to the races on. On their own. We weren't involved.

[Pablo Torre]

So at some point the introduction is made and then the question is, when does the curiosity arise? I wonder what happened to that.

[Mark Cuban]

Never.

[Pablo Torre]

Never what?

[Mark Cuban]

I've had sponsors that works with us. Hey, can you connect me to Dirk's.

[Pablo Torre]

Guy, to Lucas people for the founding sponsor of this level a little bit?

[Mark Cuban]

No, that's for me, on a 300 million dollar deal, I'm knowing about it like we did chime. I know about.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course so.

[Mark Cuban]

But anything that came across like I couldn't tell you like Luca Lucas. People would, you know, talk about certain deals.

[Pablo Torre]

So you think possible that Luca had a side deal with Chime and you wouldn't know about it?

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, I would have no idea. I wouldn't care.

[Pablo Torre]

You wouldn't care?

[Mark Cuban]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Why would I? What if you were aware that the camp of the guy who signed the deal had a history of allegedly asking for things that the rules don't allow?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't care. I mean, I'm not involved in that. I'm not involved in it. And.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I know that that's the position, but the question is personally, in terms, in terms of being honest, wouldn't you have curiosity, I wonder if that deal is going to help me or potentially humiliate me.

[Mark Cuban]

The only time I really put inserted myself in those types of situations was if I thought it was a product that was not good for Mavs fans. And our people would come to me and say, hey, we think you might have questions about this. You know, it's a supplement deal or it's, you know, a sports drink deal that's doing something funky. That's the only time I'd get involved. And the salesperson said, is it okay for us to go after these guys? Do I follow up with that afterwards? No. We had a CEO who does.

[Pablo Torre]

But I'm curious based on that, what you think about how Lawrence Frank, the Clippers president basketball operations, answered this line of yes or no questions at media Day? Has Dennis Robertson, Kawhi's uncle, ever asked.

[Mark Cuban]

For any extra benefits that wouldn't be allowable under the NBA seller cap directly to you?

[Pablo Torre]

There's been a lot coming about his asks. Yeah, Look, Dennis knows the rules. Kawhi knows the rules. Mitch Frankel knows the rules. And we know the rules.

[Mark Cuban]

Yes or another.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, we all know the rules.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. I mean, he's doing what he's supposed to do. Right. Look, I. Have I ever been asked for that? Not legit. Yeah, of course. You know, do I do it? No. Right. That's just the rule. But in terms of the business deals, that's why you have a CEO sip. Marshall did 99% of the chime deal.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, sure. Look, and I think there are. Obviously the reason the president of basketball Ops has asked that is because, of course, it's not just Steve alone in a. In an alley. This is a deal that when I said, who negotiated this? I'm like, I think there are more than just Joe Sandberg and Steve Ballmer in the conversation.

[Mark Cuban]

No chance.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Mark Cuban]

No chance. None. Zero. That what Being involved in the negotiation of a contract for a player.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh no, no. Look, the theory of the case here based reporting is Steve Ballmer turns it over to people who get into the actual nuts and bolts of the deals. The reason I bring that up is because of course Steve Ballmer said the same thing to ESPN.

[Mark Cuban]

So since 2019, has Dennis Robertson asked you for any other benefits that would not be.

[Pablo Torre]

That would be in violation of the league rules?

[Mark Cuban]

They know the rules. They meaning Kawhi and his representatives, including, including his uncle. We know the rules and if anything's not clear, we remind ourselves what the rules are and we make absolutely clear we're going to abide by those rules and they understand them as well. And it's important for them to abide by them, which they have.

[Pablo Torre]

But can you translate what is not being said here? It means what, what is Lawrence Frank not willing to say that you are personally.

[Mark Cuban]

All I said was there have been players, not even agents. Normally somebody affiliated with the player, a relative or whatever asked for something. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Now look, I, I want.

[Mark Cuban]

But to be clear. To be clear.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah. You're not saying that you don't have knowledge that you're admitting to about that.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I'm just saying I'm trying to translate the business people do their business, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

There's no reason for basketball to get involved. I tell them not to get involved, of course.

[Pablo Torre]

But according to the reporting, and this is out of Toronto and the Lakers, of course, Kawhi's camp was explicitly asking for things.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but then go back to the.

[Pablo Torre]

Honeydew no show deals equity.

[Mark Cuban]

So why wasn't the honey deal, show deal?

[Pablo Torre]

Because that was there there. By the way, they signed some deals that passed muster. The reason it wasn't a no show deal was Kawhi did ads. Kawhi was announced as a honey sponsor.

[Mark Cuban]

And what?

[Pablo Torre]

That's it.

[Mark Cuban]

But they asked him to do all that. You have no proof that he was even asked to do anything.

[Pablo Torre]

So, so the. Just to clarify here, what does it matter if Kawhi was asked by aspiration to do anything?

[Mark Cuban]

It's everything, right?

[Pablo Torre]

But is it. But whose side does it help if they never asked? Just out of curiosity.

[Mark Cuban]

Doesn't help either side. It's a failure on the the part of his aspiration, that's all.

[Pablo Torre]

Certainly.

[Mark Cuban]

But that's it.

[Pablo Torre]

But why wouldn't.

[Mark Cuban]

So you. There are multiple deals that Kawhi did.

[Pablo Torre]

That he did stuff and they announced it. This is why I keep on asking. The beginning of the episode what the question is, why was this one a deal where it was never announced, he never did?

[Mark Cuban]

Aspirations of up company.

[Pablo Torre]

Great.

[Mark Cuban]

And. And they were turning over people left and right. And there's their founder, the money guy, the guy who kept on bringing in the money was a huge Clippers fan. He sat front row all the time. Oh, yeah. He would bring his girlfriend. He would do all this stuff. He would get all the accoutrements. Is that French?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, he and. He and Steve.

[Mark Cuban]

Is that the right French word?

[Pablo Torre]

Great French. And there is a certain genesis quoi about the dynamic between Steve and Joe. It.

[Mark Cuban]

It's not. Put aside Steve. Nothing to do with Steve.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. So. So I want to. I want to sort of advance the ball here a bit, because Aspiration, which is a team sponsor and a company that Ballmer personally invested $50 million into, that established and not in dispute. I want to go back to the team sponsor dynamic because you mentioned Honey and Chime. And another one that came up brings us back to this story about how, you know, the Clippers famously ended up keeping DeAndre Jordan the center that they had from you. This is 2015, and it turns out, and this is just me going through the time machine here. It turns out that in 2015, you were asked about this in a very funny setting. It was on stage during a talk you gave at the George W. Bush Presidential center in Dallas. This is the day after. This is July 9, 2015. And it sounded like this.

[Mark Cuban]

Now, the sports fans among us, and I know there's a bunch here, know that you had kind of a tough, tough night last night. So this week on Shark Tank.

[Pablo Torre]

Without.

[Mark Cuban]

Rehashing all the details of the DeAndre Jordan commitment. Oh, you had to say his name. Okay. From a leadership standpoint, when you have a setback, when you have a tough day, what do you say to your people? What do you say to the conversations we've had today? That it's over. You know, there's nothing you can do about it. You think for a second, is there anything I can change? You think for another second, what have I learned so I can do it differently next time? And then you move forward and say, what are our options? You know, I'm a big believer you have to rearrange your business every single day. You have to look to see whether or not I.

[Pablo Torre]

Just like that you were talking about the Andre Jordan in front of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush who are in the audience at the Presidential center there in Dallas. Why do you think I'm bringing this up now?

[Mark Cuban]

No idea.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, I'm bringing it up because Steve Ballmer was fined $250,000 for Capstar convention.

[Mark Cuban]

Right? You mentioned to me.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Reportedly because his team offered a marketing side deal for DeAndre Jordan through Lexus. Would it be surprising for you to learn that Lexus was not only a team sponsor, but also, like, aspiration, a founding partner of the Intuit Dome?

[Mark Cuban]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

So I'm just saying, like, team sponsors being used in these attempted ways to circumvent the cap against people like you, his competitors. He's done it before.

[Mark Cuban]

But why? You're trying to make it sound like it's something he does all the time.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, he's been.

[Mark Cuban]

But why didn't 2015. Right. So why didn't he do it?

[Pablo Torre]

Investigated 2019.

[Mark Cuban]

How many sponsors do you think they have?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I just think he does it for the ones that he really cares about.

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, okay. So the big ones. But he didn't care enough about Kawhi with Honey in 2020 before then, when he could have taken care of all this.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh. So. So let me. Let me just do some basic math here, because you raise a really good question about, like, why this now in the timeline? So the Raptors during 2019. Free agency. I'm just looking at the numbers here. Right. So they can offer a max of $190 million over five years. The Clippers and the Lakers could only offer 141 million. What was the year over four years? 2019. 2019. This is the big why. Title free agency. The thing that got investigated by the NBA.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Because the Raptors and Lakers groups complained. 190. 141. Do you know what 190 minus 141 is with taxes?

[Mark Cuban]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Very Texan answer. 190. 141 is 49.

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, sure. You're trying to say the numbers match up the number.

[Pablo Torre]

The deal is 48. It's 48.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but. Okay, let's just go right there. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Please.

[Mark Cuban]

So when you did episode one.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

You thought it was 28. You didn't know it was 48. Right?

[Pablo Torre]

I didn't have the evidence that I have now.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, right, right. So now you're backtracking to try to make those numbers fill. Right. But that's not the point. No, no, the point. The point is when you went in episode one.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

And you thought it was $28 million.

[Pablo Torre]

It is. On the endorsement deal. $20 million.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay. That's not where I'm going.

[Pablo Torre]

Paperwork.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. You got the paperwork. Right. So it's $28 million. And you tied the $50 million from Palmer to say this is what was being used to. To pay the 28. Correct.

[Pablo Torre]

I was saying Palmer put in 50.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Kawhi was getting out 28.

[Mark Cuban]

So I don't know the French word. So eras, whatever. Right. Then that one must be connected to the other.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I'm saying that based on. Otherwise.

[Mark Cuban]

What was the whole point of the episode?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, the whole point of the episode.

[Mark Cuban]

Is that if the bomber wasn't paying that 50 million in order to pay Kawhi, what's the point of the episode?

[Pablo Torre]

Remember that? We had so much more evidence in the episode.

[Mark Cuban]

But you made the point, did you not?

[Pablo Torre]

I'm trying to simplify it down in the conversation that we're having now.

[Mark Cuban]

I'm just going back to episode one.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, no, no. So when all this started, episode one, it was 28. I had not mentioned the 20.

[Mark Cuban]

Because you didn't know about at the time.

[Pablo Torre]

I could not report it absolutely.

[Mark Cuban]

Besides.

[Pablo Torre]

But the point being that now we have the proof it was.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Not the point. Right. The point is 49 to 48, you tied up.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that a coincidence to you? Is it yes or no? Is it coincidence? Yes, it is.

[Mark Cuban]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

That's a hell of a.

[Mark Cuban]

Because you do. No one looks at the the gross delta as the number when it comes to choosing between one team versus another. If it's based off of economics, nobody.

[Pablo Torre]

So.

[Mark Cuban]

So Texas teams know, Florida teams know that. You have Oklahoma teams though, you have a state tax advantage.

[Pablo Torre]

I get the difference that these are not of course what the take home pay is going to be depending on where your team is.

[Mark Cuban]

Is that what matters?

[Pablo Torre]

Of course it does. But I'm saying in terms of how this got roughed out, I just am pointing to the question of. There is a difference of 45. The deal was very coincidentally 48. And it was also in the way that Kawhi's camp was asking. No show deals. No, he wasn't.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You're putting words in their.

[Pablo Torre]

That's according to the reporting from Toronto Star.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, that's Toronto. That has nothing to do with LA.

[Pablo Torre]

But Kawhi's camp asked the Raptors out in 2019. The Raptors were like, we're not doing that. He asked that of the Lakers. Reportedly Lakers are like, we're not doing that. And in 2021, guess what happens. $48 billion, a million off from the 49 in exactly that fashion.

[Mark Cuban]

It's okay let's. Let's segregate two different things here. Like I said when I first came on, I don't care if Steve is guilty or not. Right. It's better for the Mavericks if he is. Right. My issue is when you came out with podcast one, you had nothing.

[Pablo Torre]

That's not true.

[Mark Cuban]

It's very true.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Mark Cuban]

And you tied the things you tried to get. The things you tried to tie together.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

Sources be wrong 100. Can they be misinterpreted? Can they be misinterpreted?

[Pablo Torre]

Proven right for now, six episodes.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no, no, no. You want. You make them appear to you. Okay, but let's just go back. Let's just go back to what caught you.

[Pablo Torre]

You're not even factually correcting me. You're just bringing out other stuff.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, I am factually correcting you because you tied specifically the 50 million dollar investment.

[Pablo Torre]

50 million in to 28 million. 28 million out.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, but they weren't tied at all. They were not connected in the least bit.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course they were. No, I had seven sources saying this was for salary capture convention. That is what.

[Mark Cuban]

Then why was the money not paid?

[Pablo Torre]

Because it was a company run by a clever but ultimately criminal.

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, so when it comes to supporting your facts, you can use the fact that he's a criminal.

[Pablo Torre]

I've been using that from the start. It's the fact.

[Mark Cuban]

No, but it's not. You're using it only to subs to. To.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just reality. I'm merely describ.

[Mark Cuban]

First podcast was very clear.

[Pablo Torre]

We have to agree to disagree, I think. On what?

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no, let me finish.

[Pablo Torre]

But I'm happy to.

[Mark Cuban]

Let me just finish and tell me if I'm wrong. Right. The first podcast. Podcast said $50 million, which was earmarked specifically for the 28 million of. Quiet. Yes or no.

[Pablo Torre]

Earmarked specifically. No, I said 50 in, 28 out.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, so isn't that saying earmark?

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, look, Mark, I. I can refer you, generally speaking out of journalistic caution, to the definition of how one does provide a pass through fungible now.

[Mark Cuban]

But why would. So the point is, you're coming out with this thing that's really, you know, just destroying a man's credibility and integrity based on. No, no, no, no, no. You knew what was at stake for balmer. You knew 100.

[Pablo Torre]

We made it very clear.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, but you've said 50 in, 28 out of.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, that looks like a deal that never got announced. Of course the dots were connected by the seven sources.

[Mark Cuban]

That I have the. If the sources, okay, saying we can, we can. Why was the money disagree that any sources, even a criminal criminal would know. Pay the 50 if you're getting the 50 to keep this guy happy for a circumvention that he needs for his business. Make sure he gets paid on time at least the first time.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to make clear that like what I, I am reporting is that Steve Ballmer did not know at the outset that he was going to get victimized by Joe.

[Mark Cuban]

That's not the point. That's not the point.

[Pablo Torre]

The point is, the question is why was it that the payments were late? Right.

[Mark Cuban]

Or not.

[Pablo Torre]

Or not.

[Mark Cuban]

Prepaid or not? Prepaid or not. Done something.

[Pablo Torre]

The carbon credit stuff we did in.

[Mark Cuban]

The episode before, you didn't do the margin dollars. But anyways, it's okay.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to get to this thing. Okay. Oh, Mark Morgan. Mark.

[Mark Cuban]

Pablo. Pablo, Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

I am enjoying this, by the way.

[Mark Cuban]

Me too.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, good. The thing that I'm trying to get to here though is that Aspiration truly was like horrifically run financially. They were toast. And I want to show you actually, just like so this other document in here, you know so much more about business and forms than me. So this is a series of disclosures that Aspiration had to present to potential investors. And it lists a number of very real problems.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, you talked about this before.

[Pablo Torre]

If you can just like.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, this is all in schedule 310. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So the company is in default is what this is on the first page. What does default mean? Just for people who don't know what that means.

[Mark Cuban]

Seriously, I'll let you define it.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. It means they're broke.

[Mark Cuban]

It doesn't mean they're broke. Right. It just means they're late and there's a good chance that they won't be able to.

[Pablo Torre]

That's why I asked. Broke ass is the more colloquial.

[Mark Cuban]

So like, let's go. But here's a good example of what you were trying to list.

[Pablo Torre]

What it is.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. But here, but here's what it is, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Pick whatever you want.

[Mark Cuban]

KPMG resigned as the company's independent auditor. So while on one hand that's a red flag, right.

[Pablo Torre]

That they had the independent auditor was.

[Mark Cuban]

But they didn't give why. Yeah, they didn't say why. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And that's why you think in retrospect they might have done that?

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, because they couldn't because Joe Sandberg was doing all these round trip deals.

[Pablo Torre]

And they couldn't because the company was in default. And Otherwise by the government.

[Mark Cuban]

They couldn't confirm all the.

[Pablo Torre]

That was fishy. It was all fishy.

[Mark Cuban]

Whatever reasons they had.

[Pablo Torre]

Whatever reasons.

[Mark Cuban]

But the more important thing is from an investor standpoint, they just changed auditors.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. But it resigned. It didn't. Again, they didn't change it.

[Mark Cuban]

They resigned for.

[Pablo Torre]

They don't give a rule. Independent auditor.

[Mark Cuban]

They didn't give a reason.

[Pablo Torre]

So the company's in default. KPMG resigned as the company's independent auditor. The next page sch.

[Mark Cuban]

Let's go. The company's default. But let's say what it is. Inherit notes. Inherit ends up being the company that. That acquired them after it was all said and done.

[Pablo Torre]

They were this inherent. Was the senior lender.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Mark's reading. It's pretty bad, man.

[Mark Cuban]

It does. This doesn't really say anything.

[Pablo Torre]

The company's in default. I believe I'll just go back to it because there's some stuff on here that's pretty good.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, I read this in the sec.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The company is in the.

[Mark Cuban]

Look, I get your point though. So why would somebody invest in a company that shows you this?

[Pablo Torre]

Litigation. 8.7 million in damages alleged by Nanobank.

[Mark Cuban]

There must be some ancillary things of breach of loans.

[Pablo Torre]

Breach of the implied covenant of good faith.

[Mark Cuban]

But you have to ask the same question.

[Pablo Torre]

FINRA is conducting five inquiries.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

SEC is conducting a review of the ESG representations. It's just.

[Mark Cuban]

What was the date? What was the date on these.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, so let me ask you this.

[Mark Cuban]

Because what was the date? Because it's.

[Pablo Torre]

No, it's in there. It's in there. If you were pitched to invest in this company at a 2 billion plus valuation, first of all, they weren't.

[Mark Cuban]

The investment wasn't at a 2 billion dollar valuation. So there's this one.

[Pablo Torre]

This one. I'm saying if you were. Hypothetically, if you were presented with this at a 2 billion plus valuation, it.

[Mark Cuban]

Wasn'T a $2 billion valuation. You're pivoting. So here, if I was selling it on Shark Tank, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

I would say, look, we went. We were aspiration bank and we screwed up. We were in the consumer business. We screwed up. We even paid money to endorsers that we didn't even use. That's how screwed up we were. But now I'm going to show you the P and l for our B2B business where we're selling carbon credits. Higher margin, bigger deals. Right. Which are the things that regime change.

[Pablo Torre]

New CEO getting rid of the old ex.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So now let Me show you a pro forma based off of just this business and excluding all the other business. The 2.3 billion dollar number is very misleading because that's only realized if it goes public with.

[Pablo Torre]

Exactly.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. And if it doesn't go public, which is all about all Charney cares about. Right. That's why not Cherni Sandberg cares about. That's why he's lying. They do.

[Pablo Torre]

But.

[Mark Cuban]

But ch's gone in a minute, right? Right. So the SPAC isn't going to happen, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

Joe knows it's not going to happen unless he pulls it does.

[Pablo Torre]

But in this case, in this timeline, it's absolutely still.

[Mark Cuban]

You're right. No, the goal is still right. Because it's 21. 21 is still. But the investment that they're making at that point in time isn't at the valuation of 2.3 until it converts. That was the point you missed before in your podcast. So let me explain to you. Right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Mark Cuban]

You're buying it lower, right. And you're getting a price. They had rolling closes all the time. That's why they would have a C1C, 2C, 4C, you know, series close. Right. And that's why it was like confusing that Ballmer put in in September and Dennis Wong put in in December of 22, and then Ballmer puts in in March 23 because they had these things called rolling closes. Right. So at that point, so there's basically two businesses here, here, two businesses that are being sold. Shark Tank approach. Right. The two businesses are at the beginning, at this point in time when everybody thinks the aspiration bank itself is going to happen and there's this back merger going to happen. You're only going to invest if it's considerably lower than the $2.3 billion. I see what you're saying, because you see that as the grand prize.

[Pablo Torre]

But this is. But this thing. The reason I'm jumping in here is because this presentation, these disclosures were made to outside investors, 19 of them, according to court documents, who hear this pitch like you, and said.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You would say to, to. To this series of disclosures. No, thanks.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I don't know what the pitch is. Companies put this every day.

[Pablo Torre]

So. So let me put this in the timeline specifically because this was the raise in Q4 of 2022. And so all that stuff is disclosed.

[Mark Cuban]

So what happened in October of 2022?

[Pablo Torre]

A lot of bad for aspiration, man.

[Mark Cuban]

No, a lot of good for aspiration. A lot of Good stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

What was good about a company going into default that was losing its entire executive structure as employees were saying, are we going to make it?

[Mark Cuban]

They went to Katana. Katona. Right, Katona. So December 22nd, they changed, and they were able to show a P and L based only off their B2B. They did again, the. The execs that were pitching.

[Pablo Torre]

But, Mark, the reason why they were pivoting was because the company, as it existed was, of course, pardon my French. Totally. And so they were figuring out.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, no, no, no, no.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm sorry. Now you're a big aspiration fan.

[Mark Cuban]

No, I'm. You know, the more I got to know about Katana, the more I like Katana. Right. The more I liked it. Right. So I could see.

[Pablo Torre]

Liked. Okay, very good.

[Mark Cuban]

Because when you look the base numbers going back to September 30th of 2021 show their B2B business. Business where they didn't waste all that money on marketing. Right. Was. Had a chance. Had a chance.

[Pablo Torre]

So for that reason, you're in.

[Mark Cuban]

At least would look at it. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Mark Cuban]

But not that I would invest in that business, but it's not unheard of for a company to pivot to a new business, have multiple lines.

[Pablo Torre]

In fact, the only thing left for this company to do is that's. But the reason I'm saying is that because 19 outside investors looked at this and said, as aforementioned, hell no. And so the question I have now is since, you know, how many people.

[Mark Cuban]

Said no to Airbnb?

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, but. But I guess everybody.

[Mark Cuban]

The Federal Express, everybody.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course. That's, of course, an insane comparison to Aspiration, which went bankrupt and is embroiled in lots of fraud and humiliation. Airbnb, FedEx, and so forth. But in this case, the question I have is just since my. Since the first podcast, which you hated, came out on September 3rd, have you communicated at all with the Vice Chairman of the Clippers, Dennis Wong?

[Mark Cuban]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. Dennis Wong is Steve Ballmer's close friend and college roommate, the one and only co owner that Ballmer trusted have equity in the team. He also wound up being the only person who did not have money and aspiration who saw these disclosures that I presented to you, not the only person, the only person who had never put in money into Aspiration before.

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, they put in money aspiration before.

[Pablo Torre]

And said, you know what? I want a piece of this. This is the signature page for Dennis Wong that's attached to the same disclosures that I just handed you. That's what he saw.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

You Just saw is what he saw. But.

[Mark Cuban]

But to your point right now, let's think this through, please. Right. There were other investors because we got to see the pictures previously. The point is, right. The point is those other two investors that invested around the same time as Dennis Wong, right. They best I can remember. So they also said, you know what? I like what I'm seeing in this pivot.

[Pablo Torre]

But I do need to just take a quick beat here to clarify something that we'd reported previously on the show when it comes to the identities of the only other investors, the two other entities who gave Aspiration money in December 2022 in that same same Series C5 round, having been presented with that same exact set of disclosures in all of their bleakness as Clippers co owner Dennis Wong. Because one of those two investors was Aspiration Board member Ibrahim Al Husseini. The same guy who pleaded guilty to wire fraud in March 2025. The same guy who was the alleged co conspirator of Aspiration co founder Joe Sanders Sandberg. And the other investor was. Yes, Joe Sandberg himself, who of course pleaded guilty to wire fraud in August of 2025. So the question I have is those disclosures are the things that Dennis Wong signed off on and aspirations. Quarterly payment to Kawhi Leonard was at this point more than two months late. Dennis Wong put in $1.99 million. He acquired 0.072% of the company in default. Facing those problems as aforementioned, why do you think he put in that little money for that little equity?

[Mark Cuban]

Maybe to make his daughter happy. His daughter worked there, right? Maybe to keep him alive. Maybe to keep him. Give him one more month. Maybe.

[Pablo Torre]

They said that I would save the balance sheets of Aspiration 2 million. And by the way, lots of people came in and out of the company. I'm not here to interrogate them at the moment.

[Mark Cuban]

So the people who went back to work there.

[Pablo Torre]

But why would people, why would Dennis Wong put in specifically that little amount of money after 300 million had already been raised the year before?

[Mark Cuban]

Because maybe that was a bridge loan.

[Pablo Torre]

Zero point.

[Mark Cuban]

Maybe it was a bridge amount. Maybe they said, you know what, we got to make this one payroll. Right? And we have more money coming. Did we have more money coming in after which turned out to be true? I get asked all, but this wasn't a loan.

[Pablo Torre]

This was an investment.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, whatever. It was a bridge.

[Pablo Torre]

It was a. So I could ask Series C5 preferred stock purchase agreement.

[Mark Cuban]

Right? I can't tell you how often I hear right. Hey, we're close. We have this other money coming in, which turned out to be true. Right. Because they ended up raising 68 million. Kind of.

[Pablo Torre]

The company is just. Spoiler alert. The company is.

[Mark Cuban]

Well, no, this is our.

[Pablo Torre]

We're. We're getting to relive decisions with the benefit of hindsight. I admit.

[Mark Cuban]

Joe Sandberg is. Joe Sandberg is.

[Pablo Torre]

Mark. The company literally is in default at the time that this payment is made, and aspiration needs to pivot to a totally different business.

[Mark Cuban]

That's what companies do, but that is.

[Pablo Torre]

Also a synonym for being. They filed for bankruptcy.

[Mark Cuban]

So, okay, why would a new CEO take the job of CEO?

[Pablo Torre]

That's a great question for Olivia Albrecht. Great question.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. Why does she stay there for an extended period of time?

[Pablo Torre]

I want to ask about Dennis Wong. I don't care about Olivia.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, we do care about Livia.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I get. But lots of people. Lots of people either fell for or went eyes wide open in for a scenario as described.

[Mark Cuban]

But. No, but see, no, no, no, no, no. Okay, so our mutual friend has been very clear that he didn't know that.

[Pablo Torre]

They were a friend. He is a source. And I appreciate the distinction. But the point being. And I want to leave him to the side for a second, because what Dennis Wong decided to do nine days before KL2, Aspire LLC, finally, after months of delay, got paid 1.75. Are you suggesting that is another coincidence?

[Mark Cuban]

Look, there were 16 contractual payments. You have one payment that was in proximity to an investment week before.

[Pablo Torre]

After months of delay.

[Mark Cuban]

After months of delay.

[Pablo Torre]

I asked you the question. Why would he put in 1.99 specifically? And your only response was, maybe he wanted to save the company, which doesn't, if you want to make his daughter happy. By the way, his daughter, according to people who worked with her, quote, she 100% knew that the company was a sinking ship. End quote. Kawhi got paid 1.75 the day they laid off 20% of the staff.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, that's because they were pivoting. Of course you're going to lay off staff. Look, you're trying to put everything in. Joe Sandberg is his own unique entity. Aspiration. The people doing the work, the people that came every day, they believed in the mission.

[Pablo Torre]

Those are my sources, for the record.

[Mark Cuban]

But. And that's great. But they had no idea or understanding of why Joe Sandberg did what he did.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, what they did, though, was see, wire in and wire out knowledge in the finance department. Like, this is Dennis Wong's wire in. This is KL2's Wire the Week before.

[Mark Cuban]

This is bookkeeping.

[Pablo Torre]

It's bookkeeping. Literally, the flow of funds. The question I have.

[Mark Cuban]

Let me. Let me say this again, Paul.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I hear you.

[Mark Cuban]

I Hear payments.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

16.

[Pablo Torre]

Why this one?

[Mark Cuban]

16. Contractual, but. Right. I want to focus on one payment.

[Pablo Torre]

But why is this one? One, the one that Dennis Wong put in money nine days before to a degree that is inexplicable to everybody.

[Mark Cuban]

Any. Look, any payment that's going to be made is going to be within some extra months late.

[Pablo Torre]

Mark.

[Mark Cuban]

What's that?

[Pablo Torre]

This payment to Kawhi was months late.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. And I don't know, maybe days later.

[Pablo Torre]

So it got paid magically.

[Mark Cuban]

Who benefits the most from that payment?

[Pablo Torre]

Anyone who wants Kawhi to finally get paid?

[Mark Cuban]

Uncle Dennis.

[Pablo Torre]

Kawhi's camp, the Clippers, are the two parties constantly trying to.

[Mark Cuban]

So as a link here in your brain, someone who's had companies that have done well and poorly for a period, unfortunately turned around right. When you have a vendor that is calling you all the time. Right. The squeaky wheel moves to the top. Did crossed your mind that the guy was just so annoying?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. But lots of people weren't getting paid. Lots of clients were getting screwed. Right. And they were all calling. And the question is, why did this guy get prioritized?

[Mark Cuban]

Because maybe he was the squeakiest wheel. Maybe because Joe Sandberg's a Clippers fan. Maybe because Joe Sandberg would see Kawhi at games that he would go to, sitting on the front row or right on the court, wherever. I don't know exactly where he was sitting. Right. And maybe he already had a relationship with Kawhi and he would be embarrassed next time because maybe Kawhi would say something. Uncle Dennis was going to those games. Maybe Uncle Dennis was saying something specifically to Joe Sandberg and that guy is saying, okay, we gotta pay this guy. You know, I'm the one raising money. I got more money coming in.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just a very funny thing for the number one priority, according to my sources here, to be pay the guy doing nothing for us in a deal we've never announced.

[Mark Cuban]

He's driving everything. He's the one raising all the money. He raises money.

[Pablo Torre]

But the question is, what does he benefit from in terms of this deal existing? And my theory has been consistent throughout, which is that he benefits because he preserves a relationship with Steve Ballmer in which his obligations.

[Mark Cuban]

The more I learned. So when I did the first podcast, I didn't really know all that much about Joe, so it was interesting. And thank you deep research. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, boy.

[Mark Cuban]

So it was interesting. This is a guy. What else was on Joe Sandberg's pocket plate? What else was he doing?

[Pablo Torre]

Please educate me.

[Mark Cuban]

He was actively involved in politics.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

He was one of the largest.

[Pablo Torre]

Good guys. Mark. These are the Democrat donors. The biggest in California. Some have said big.

[Mark Cuban]

Biggest in California. Right. He's on the court. He's got a famous girlfriend. Right. Who's taken to gang.

[Pablo Torre]

He's a media personality.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, yeah. And so his. His whole spiel. His. Only if he collapses, if his image collapses, his whole thing taking over Blue apron.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, sure.

[Mark Cuban]

But all that stuff collapses.

[Pablo Torre]

But it's so weird to prioritize the deal that no one knows about amid all the public pressure.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no. You're missing the whole point. Then I'm not doing a good job explaining it.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no. He has lots of things that he's trying to keep the plate spinning simultaneously.

[Mark Cuban]

Not just spinning. It's his whole image. Oh, yeah. He's selling. That's what criminals do. They sell their image.

[Pablo Torre]

But that's what I'm pointing out to you.

[Mark Cuban]

And if the one guy that you see in a uniform or at that point in time in 21. Well, I guess he didn't sign it till 22.

[Pablo Torre]

He didn't play in 21. 22. Right.

[Mark Cuban]

No, that's what he said. He didn't sign. And they didn't sign until 22. Right. And they signed April of 22nd. Right. And so that season starts in November. Right. Of. Or October. November.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Mark Cuban]

Because we're talking about him getting paid in December. Right. And so now he's seeing him at the games again. The guys got from. They've got a big suite where they entertain.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, they do.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Staples at the time.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. They've got the. The seats on the floor.

[Pablo Torre]

Y.

[Mark Cuban]

He's probably seen him in the tunnel before or andor after every game.

[Pablo Torre]

Sure.

[Mark Cuban]

And he's seeing uncle Dennis. And I'm sure Uncle Dennis is in his ear. And uncle Dennis is.

[Pablo Torre]

I fully agree that Joe Samberg was. If you're Joe Saber to the story of why K was getting paid.

[Mark Cuban]

So let me just ask you a question. If you're Joe Samberg, which is more impactful to your life? Paying Kawhi Leonard or paying some random vendor?

[Pablo Torre]

I would say that making sure that I paid Kawhi above and beyond, not a random vendor, but my other financial obligations is insane. Because he's returning 0roi to my company.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, he's.

[Pablo Torre]

No, he's literally doing nothing. He's actually just got the wrong hat on. Paul. I know, I know you're talking about public pressure and I know you're talking about who's bothering me day to day. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about Joe Zanberg, about what is the actual health of my company. Why am I prioritizing somebody?

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no, no.

[Pablo Torre]

The goal is to get to SPAC.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, right. But okay, by 2022, a functional company. He's spiraling in 2022.

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely.

[Mark Cuban]

You got to have a functioning company. So paying Kawhi 1.75 isn't going to change. In functioning company, the 1.99 is not going to change whether it's functioning.

[Pablo Torre]

You know what it would do though? It would keep Uncle Dennis Robertson and Kawhi's camp happy.

[Mark Cuban]

And it keeps, it keeps him from bothering Joe Sandberg.

[Pablo Torre]

Who else might be bothered if there were payments that were laid out?

[Mark Cuban]

Joe Sandberg.

[Pablo Torre]

What about, I don't know, potentially, according to my reporting, the Los Angeles Clippers. That could be a pressure.

[Mark Cuban]

I mean, it's possible that Uncle Dennis.

[Pablo Torre]

Pressured whoever there like Lawrence Frank, saying that he heard or rather wouldn't say no to whether he heard.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but you can't. I mean, look, that's ridiculous to even bring that up.

[Pablo Torre]

Using his words, using his or no questions.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, but what do you think he's going to do? You don't think he's got a prepared statement? He knows exactly what he's going to.

[Pablo Torre]

Say before he's a terrible way to convince him.

[Mark Cuban]

No. You think he's gives a look, it's a big deal.

[Pablo Torre]

He just doesn't want to be caught lying.

[Mark Cuban]

It's not even about that. There's no point.

[Pablo Torre]

Obvious.

[Mark Cuban]

There's no point. Kawhi addressed it. So think about this. Andrew Cherney says it wasn't a work, a no work deal.

[Pablo Torre]

Trust that guy. So the three names, Mike Shucker of the general counsel, roium, the cmo, and Eric Anderson, who was the cto, they came out with a sign statement provided to me saying Andre Cherny in so many words is not representing our experience.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but you're probably. And you don't even know it. You're making my point. And you.

[Pablo Torre]

Those three named sources are corroborating what my seven anonymous sources were telling me. And Andre Cherny is on an island, as the co, founder and friend of Joe Sandberg, who's now trying to say, according to his public statements. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This was a normal deal. The Kawhi thing was a normal Deal.

[Mark Cuban]

No, he said the contract was normal.

[Pablo Torre]

So look, what I want to get.

[Mark Cuban]

To here, he said, because he even agreed, right? Because the Joe Sandberg email to everybody in May of 22 where he said he would provide the.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah, Joe.

[Mark Cuban]

He even said in the email, Andre signed it.

[Pablo Torre]

Andre signed the contract.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no, that's not where I'm going.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I know. Joe said that Andre didn't want this.

[Mark Cuban]

Either, and all the marketing team didn't want it either.

[Pablo Torre]

Nobody.

[Mark Cuban]

So nobody. Which was par for the course for Joe Samberg.

[Pablo Torre]

He rammed it.

[Mark Cuban]

That 29.5. Did you read lawsuit? The $29.5 million lawsuit, Mark, I've read so many. I bet you have. I bet you have. So you know that that's where you brought up the. They brought up the. Not the audit committee, the investment committee. Right, yeah, the investment committee said no. And then the general counsel said, we want escrow. Guy sends an email to Joe Sandberg and the next day it's all changed. The next day. That's how he did business.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, the whole thing here is that he was and is, according to his own guilty plea, a fraudster. The question is why he wanted to do this. And so for me, what I'm getting to is also, as you foreshadowed March 9, 2023, those same disclosures Dennis Wong saw, Steve Ballmer's like, you know what? I want in $10 million more.

[Mark Cuban]

And I'll tell you exactly how that goes.

[Pablo Torre]

Please.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay. Guy comes to you. Pablo, we've had problems, right? We're pivoting. And I've got. Got my GC coming back, right? I've got people that I think are going to do great. I've got a new CEO. And Pablo, let me just show you this, this information, these numbers, this business to business stuff, this enterprise business is good. The carbon credits, so good. Yeah, enterprise, yeah, carbon credits. We have meta lined up. We have, you know, bank of America lined up. And you know what, Pablo? This is so good. I'm going to put in 40. You're putting in 10, Steve, I'm going to go four times that amount and I'm going to put my own cash in. That's how committed I am to this business. Mark, you're putting in 40 million, whatever it was, dollars in yourself. All right, I can see the numbers. My marginal cost is 10 million. I'm already in 50. So the marginal value of this, and remember, this is March of 23 when he invested. And by that time, it's the same.

[Pablo Torre]

Round as Dennis Wong. It was the long.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. Which is not unusual. Yeah, they keep. Right, right. And that was also the time when Sandberg was paying Inter private two $5 million payments to extend the outside date, which is the, the drop dead date for the spec. Yeah, Right.

[Pablo Torre]

So.

[Mark Cuban]

So he's going. So it wouldn't be the first time.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, no, no. But.

[Mark Cuban]

But the idea that he's doing this, how stupid is he? Because he reads this. Well, he's so stupid that the guy who he still trusts, that he doesn't know is a fraudster, is putting in four times as much cash as he is. 20 times as much cash as Dennis Wong. Right. That's why he's doing it.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. So I guess it's worth pointing out though, that at this point, when you go to December, before Steve Ballmer made that decision, the SPAC as a premise had basically collapsed. No, no, no. There was a meeting held in which 90% of the investors were like, we're cashing out.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. But it still was alive. That's why.

[Pablo Torre]

But 90% said we're out.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but you can. It's 90%. Yeah, but you can go. You can replenish those investments.

[Pablo Torre]

But how big an uphill climb is all of this in context.

[Mark Cuban]

But you're in context. You have to look. No, you have to look at what's happening with SPACs at the same point in time.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And by and over time, spacs were revealed to be a giant illusion.

[Mark Cuban]

Not necessarily. But they weren't doing as well. Right, but they're not doing as well. I mean.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, right, but the point.

[Mark Cuban]

At the point. No, you're using this as some type.

[Pablo Torre]

Of indicator, giving you like, it's not.

[Mark Cuban]

An indication of anything about.

[Pablo Torre]

Is documented to be.

[Mark Cuban]

Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

It's not its appendages, its identity, its employees, its very basic thesis. No, the SPAC as a thesis.

[Mark Cuban]

Just look at Katona's web Twitter feed. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

That's the. So I'm giving you 90% of the investors are cashing out within or private. And you're saying, look at the Twitter feed, Pablo. Because they got posts. Because. Because they dare to post.

[Mark Cuban]

It's a blank sort of metaphor, a blank check spec. Right. And so they have the option to extract their money. Money. They have the option to get more money, to put in there a variety of ways. They have to come up with a total of $400 million at some point. The fact that these investors pulled out could be a thousand different reasons. What data did they have available to them to make a determination if it.

[Pablo Torre]

Was what if they saw that everybody who was in the executive structure was fired.

[Mark Cuban]

They didn't have any data.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, but as an investor, would it. So why if they were having massive layoffs and needed to pivot the entire premise of the company, they knew because.

[Mark Cuban]

Of where they were pivoting a lot of.

[Pablo Torre]

So I guess what they're saying is, hey, you guys are pivoting. This is most generously. You guys are pivoting. We think that we're best say, no, no, no. I'm saying exactly the way we end.

[Mark Cuban]

Pablo, you're coming to the conclusion that these people left the 90 left because it's obvious that it was a fraud or there's something wrong.

[Pablo Torre]

They smelled that it was a bad deal.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. I'm saying you have no idea that that's the case. None. Not even smidget about.

[Pablo Torre]

I have a sense.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, that's all you have.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no. I have a sense based on nine sources who are telling me this is why this is happening. Here is the flow of funds. Here are the 3,000 pages of documents.

[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

Yes, we do.

[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

Start a free trial today on Monday.com. can I just get to the whole thing of like the Clippers say to us, we saw this deal was fishy in the 2223 season and we terminated.

[Mark Cuban]

It for the end of the 23 season.

[Pablo Torre]

So you know how the NBA season works. So Bomber puts in 10 in March, March 9. So that's pretty close to the end of the season. So when do you think the Clippers would have said, oh no, we should terminate this?

[Mark Cuban]

I don't know if they told him at all or when they told him or what was going on. I'm sure they mentioned. I would say they mentioned to it because you're closing a big deal. Right. So you know. And when did he start the investment process and when did he close it? You know, he closed it in March of 23. Right. We don't know when they determined that they were going to shut off the aspiration. We do know they tweeted happy birthday to Kawhi. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

June.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, in June. So, you know, because the NBA dates are June 30th. Right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

That's when the season officially financially ends. Oh, the league year for the. Yeah, for the business, for the cba.

[Pablo Torre]

I guess what I'm saying is when Steve Ballmer says, and I believe him on some key level that he is a victim of Joe Sandberg and there is no disagreement from me.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, we both agreed there.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course he was. The question is whether he was deceived by a guy he was entrusting to help him deceive the NBA day.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And you firmly push back team Ballmer. So the question I have now is, look, you're a businessman who has said over and over again that like, we are not immune to mistakes. We are fallible.

[Mark Cuban]

We are scammed.

[Pablo Torre]

We've been scammed. It genuinely, this is just me like doing a bit of just I imagine to be that rich and to lose money from someone you trust, that sucks.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course you must feel like because you're supposed to be the smart guy, you're humiliated.

[Mark Cuban]

It's not even that. It's not even that. Right. It's because you trusted somebody. Yes, that's it. This is not a fun thing to. To be through. I was personally defrauded. Remember? They defrauded me. They defrauded many other investors. These are guys who committed fraud. How would I be able. Look, they conned me.

[Pablo Torre]

You're one of the richest men in America.

[Mark Cuban]

I made an investment in these guys thinking it was on the up and up and they economy.

[Pablo Torre]

Why did Steve Ballmer donate $1.875 million to the charity Joe Sandberg personally founded and was still the board chair of.

[Mark Cuban]

And when did he start donating the money? When was the first time he donated?

[Pablo Torre]

2018.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, so you think that he said, hey, I want to keep you on the line because you have this business and I'm going to use you at some point in the future. And so I'm going to keep on.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't know why. I'm just wondering how could you feel like your trust was so broken? Token and yet donate $1.875 million to the dude.

[Mark Cuban]

How much does his foundation.

[Pablo Torre]

You.

[Mark Cuban]

You looked up his foundation and you.

[Pablo Torre]

Looked at the nine at last check one of the ten richest people in the world.

[Mark Cuban]

Put that aside up.

[Pablo Torre]

No. He has a zillion donations to zillions of places.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. And you really, really think he checked?

[Pablo Torre]

I would say if I was embroiled in this giant.

[Mark Cuban]

No. Right. I wouldn't know. Like if one of the guys who scammed me, my foundation, was giving them money and we had an overall deal, I would have no clue. It's not worth my time. Mark is not worth my time.

[Pablo Torre]

If you had made a series of. Of donations to Joe Sandberg's charity since 2018, meaning you knew this guy since at least 2017.

[Mark Cuban]

Do we know that he knew him?

[Pablo Torre]

He was the chair and it's a tiny charity.

[Mark Cuban]

So did. Was it specified by Ballmer to give to him or was it the foundation that found it and it aligned with Ballmer's goals?

[Pablo Torre]

So according to 60 Minute Interviews, of course, Steve and Connie, his wife, go through grant by grant their donations.

[Mark Cuban]

It really is kind of grant by grant. You can't look back and say, well, people's economic mobility this year was a 2, and next year it's going to be a 2.6. Yeah, we can't do population level measurement, but place by place, you know, grant by grant. Grant. We can do that. Right? It's a list. I get the same. It's a list. When the Mavs did their with of their foundation, I'd get the list and I'd be like, you guys like this? Done.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. There's a lot of, like, you have no idea what your money does when the money does bad stuff, but when it does good stuff, you know exactly what it is.

[Mark Cuban]

No, no, no. Not true at all. It goes the same way.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't want to bring up the Simpsons meme again. I apologize. The thing I'm saying is, if you were making these series of escalating investments into a charity and the charity was run by, in this hypothetical Bernie Madoff, wouldn't you think to yourself, man, that guy, Bernie Madoff, who's been my entire life, that guy. Do I want to keep donating to the thing I keep on signing off on? I probably don't is what I would imagine. And he's like, you know what? I'm back for more. Dec. 24 Golden State Opportunity foundation.

[Mark Cuban]

And he started it, but was he the president that ran it and filled out the applications?

[Pablo Torre]

He's when it started, right when he first started.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

He is the founder, the sole founder. It is in his image, it is his life story. He is the board chair through this time period.

[Mark Cuban]

And there's somebody who operates it. He doesn't operate it Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Over time. He appointed a president.

[Mark Cuban]

Right, Mark? Right. But that person fills out the forms every year.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

And every year they submit it. But unless there's a reason that someone.

[Pablo Torre]

But Joe Sandberg was the only person other than that president who had the title of president according to their 990s.

[Mark Cuban]

So what?

[Pablo Torre]

I give money to organizations federal.

[Mark Cuban]

So like I give money to different organizations. And if somebody goes rogue in one of those organizations, I'm not gonna know.

[Pablo Torre]

If you were donating to a guy as central in your suffering as Joe Sandberg has been presented.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, no. So here's the presumption that you're making.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm saying the federal government has what been announced.

[Mark Cuban]

You see you, you as investigating the reason I'm in this chair right now. I'm one of the few people that has experienced all these things.

[Pablo Torre]

And that's why I love that you're here.

[Mark Cuban]

Because I can. I. I've been there, done that. Every single piece of these things. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, and I hope not every single piece.

[Mark Cuban]

Well, no, I've been frauded. No, not. Well, no. Because I don't think he did anything.

[Pablo Torre]

So. Okay.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So. But at the same time, there are charities I've made in. I've given money to. And if somebody at that charity, even the founders. Founder, even the original chairman goes rogue.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

The chances of me knowing, unless somebody at the foundation catches it, are minimal.

[Pablo Torre]

Even if the guy was the guy who was around your games.

[Mark Cuban]

Even if the guy was the guy.

[Pablo Torre]

Around my guy who that you.

[Mark Cuban]

There could be a guy $2 million down for me at the Mavs game.

[Pablo Torre]

300 million dollar partnership, signage all over the building that you built with your bare hands, this founding sponsor.

[Mark Cuban]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Because it's not any guy, it's the guy.

[Mark Cuban]

No, you're trying. That's right. That's the whole. That's what you do, Pablo. You're trying to put all this on, you know, if there's a connection for.

[Pablo Torre]

The decisions they make that are documented.

[Mark Cuban]

Look, if the guy decided to give to the charity. You're presuming. Now he's saying, oh, this guy me go. Somebody go look up to make sure that I'm not involved with him anywhere, any shape.

[Pablo Torre]

If you say that you were victimized, that your trust was broken, humiliated, this was a guy that you did not trust that you only met in this one way.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, but he probably has no idea that his charity is giving money to Sandberg's charity. Probably has zero idea.

[Pablo Torre]

His public commentary about how they'd make decisions about donations say otherwise.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. So. No, no, no, it does not. No, it does not. How much time. How much time do you think that would take?

[Pablo Torre]

I assume that if you are sincerely somebody who cares about charity as they present themselves to be, you would have some awareness that this person who is in business with you so many different ways and has been. Been embroiled in this same year. By the way. It's not like any year. It's the same year when the Fed.

[Mark Cuban]

You're presuming. You're presuming.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no. This is Bloomberg in January reports of the federal government investigating.

[Mark Cuban]

Let's go back to.

[Pablo Torre]

Is the picture.

[Mark Cuban]

Let's say Pablo. Let's just say Pablo gives to 20 charities. Okay. Do you go back and review the applications? Because the way the rules work is if you give the 20, there's probably a hundred plus. Because they have to be. I assume they have to be independent. Right. There's a much that I The thought that when they're going through. I never read the detailed application. Okay. Not one single time.

[Pablo Torre]

I just. I just want to.

[Mark Cuban]

Not one single time.

[Pablo Torre]

That's what you would do. And I want to. I want to agree on. On that perspective. Why don't you think the Clippers or anyone else associated with them have like made any of these arguments that you've been making?

[Mark Cuban]

There's no upside. There's no upside. You got to deal with the NBA. What the.

[Pablo Torre]

Look what happens on Twitter wants someone like. But no one's even leaked it.

[Mark Cuban]

There's only downside.

[Pablo Torre]

No one's leaked it.

[Mark Cuban]

There's only downside. That means they have a good organization. No one leaked it. There's only downside. There's only downside. To somebody.

[Pablo Torre]

This feels like you're making arguments and I'm just wondering why they don't anyway.

[Mark Cuban]

Because they have to. They're gonna have to tell everything to the NBA anyway.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. So look, if we get to the Mavs for a sec.

[Mark Cuban]

Sure.

[Pablo Torre]

So the Mavs of it. Because. But.

[Mark Cuban]

But wait, wait again. I want to make my point.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh no. And we can. We can keep on you tied. It's not me trying to get you out of here. No. I got question.

[Mark Cuban]

Right. What got me mad.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Mark Cuban]

Is that you didn't have anything concrete. You had seven sources and 3,007 sources. No. That. Those are physical. In. In.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, I had the contract that was never announced. Great. He did nothing forever.

[Mark Cuban]

Great.

[Pablo Torre]

And we had.

[Mark Cuban]

That has nothing to do with whether or not Ballmer violated the cba.

[Pablo Torre]

But. But with. With the whole. Okay, we're going to.

[Mark Cuban]

If you would come up, you find a smoking gun.

[Pablo Torre]

Even the Dennis thing. Change your mind. If that was an episode one you'd be like, oh, that makes more sense.

[Mark Cuban]

No. No.

[Pablo Torre]

A little bit.

[Mark Cuban]

No. Cuz I learned more between episode one and two as I dug in more.

[Pablo Torre]

But the Dennis Wong thing is exactly what we're talking about. Nine days separation between money in, money out.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay. Let's start going back to the beginning where I was. What got me mad, if you will not mad.

[Pablo Torre]

But that's okay. I'm not.

[Mark Cuban]

I'm not here made me interested. Is you on somebody's reputation without having reputation. Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

A deeply sourced documentary.

[Mark Cuban]

The fact that it's deeply sourced. Relevant. No. Kudos to you for finding your sources. No. No issues there. The conclusions you came to on Steve Ballmer and that was wrong because you didn't have enough information to make that connection.

[Pablo Torre]

I totally respect that you feel that way. I do. And I. And I don't. I. I want you to have said it. So nothing.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay, moving on.

[Pablo Torre]

Nothing about that that I want to disagree with. I think it's okay for you to feel that way. Way the Mavs. So part of the reason why it's funny to be in this eternal conversation with you is because people are like, are you ever going to ask him about the Mavs and the Dirk Niti sweetheart deal in 2014 to stay in Dallas where he resigned for about 8 million a year. When of course he had Max offers on the table that I have confirmed. There's a conspiracy theory out there. And by the way, this is just me asking. This is like I don't have.

[Mark Cuban]

I'm here to confess.

[Pablo Torre]

So.

[Mark Cuban]

So I gave him $48 million.

[Pablo Torre]

That is not sora. That is actual Mark. The conspiracy out there, you know, is that why would he take so much less?

[Mark Cuban]

He wanted Tim Duncan money. He was at his age. And remember the cap I went back and looked was $58 million three years in a row. Right. It wasn't going up at all. And it was. How do you manage your cap? And Tim Duncan had done a 3 for 30 deal. And I vividly remember having the conversation and he's like, I'd like to get Tim Duncan money. I'm like, Dirk, you know know, cap stayed flat, here's what we want to do. And he was like, okay. And then the next year, 2016, when the cap went up, we were able to pay a lot more.

[Pablo Torre]

But the money he left on the table, the question is no, you presume, okay, he had Max offers.

[Mark Cuban]

I don't even know that they spoke to him. Maybe he did, maybe he did. I don't know. But look, if I can tell you.

[Pablo Torre]

That he did from those other teams.

[Mark Cuban]

Who did you talk to?

[Pablo Torre]

Daryl.

[Mark Cuban]

And who else?

[Pablo Torre]

I can tell you that there were Max offers on the team table.

[Mark Cuban]

Daryl would have come to me and said, let's make a trade. I can pay Dirk, I want to pay Dirk more.

[Pablo Torre]

So you're saying that he didn't get Max offers at that time in 2014?

[Mark Cuban]

I'm saying it's highly unlikely for the. At the age he was and the fact that they knew that he wanted to stay, that is highly unlikely.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, Dirk wanting to stay in Dallas is so clear to me.

[Mark Cuban]

I'm not saying he's getting offers, not getting offers. The cap was $58 million at the time, right? So 35% of fit. Right?

[Pablo Torre]

So the question is, and this is truly like, not my reporting, so. But the conspiracy out there, Reddit, our buddy Bill Simmons, when Dirk had that.

[Mark Cuban]

Documentary and Cuban's company bought it, and I would.

[Pablo Torre]

Is this documentary, huh? So the theory here is that Magnolia.

[Mark Cuban]

Pictures, huh, My company, they own half of.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. Circumvented the cap by, you know, overpaying to distribute a documentary about Dirk, how.

[Mark Cuban]

He spent like Iron man level money on the Dirk Doc. Here's 48 million for your diet. Like, who knows what he spent? But how much do you think we paid?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, what we did was we checked with the producers of the film, and to your credit, they poured cold water on the whole conspiracy. The head of the production company told us that your company did a hundred thousand dollar deal for U.S. distribution rights.

[Mark Cuban]

For how many years?

[Pablo Torre]

10. So, yeah, I'm just. Look, I'm not here to like, say gotcha. I'm just here, like, legitimately, you know.

[Mark Cuban]

What, And I thank you. I thank you for just dispelling all the nonsense I called. I appreciate it.

[Pablo Torre]

And I. And so just to confirm, did the Mavericks circumvent the salary cap with Dirk Nowitzk in 2014?

[Mark Cuban]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Very good. Do you think the Knicks may have circumvented the cap? And taking Jalen Brunson from your Mavericks? I don't know a different answer.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Mark Cuban]

I. I just think there was a lot of play there.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Luca.

[Mark Cuban]

Huh?

[Pablo Torre]

I want to get to the Luca Dodget thing, because your first public comments on that trade were kind of incredible.

[Mark Cuban]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

They're very funny. February 2025 of this year. Oh. I mean, it's hilarious. The setting. I mean, you had sold your majority stake of the Mavs by then. Do you remember where you were?

[Mark Cuban]

No, I don't.

[Pablo Torre]

Let's play the video.

[Mark Cuban]

And so I wanted to start off with a question, because you've been in, you know, unique situations, and maybe you can help if after you left before Microsoft, you found out that Steve Ballmer traded Windows 11, like the new HOT operating system for Windows 10, the hall of fame, but older, what would you do? I might have to hide from the press. I know a couple other people that are in that situation.

[Pablo Torre]

So can you now refresh our memory?

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. I appreciate you showing that. That was fun.

[Pablo Torre]

Who are you on stage with?

[Mark Cuban]

Thank you. Bill Gates.

[Pablo Torre]

Remember where it was?

[Mark Cuban]

It was in Dallas. I forget what the venue was.

[Pablo Torre]

Dallas Museum of Art.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I bring this all up because what Dallas is like when that comment is made and the organizations you support.

[Mark Cuban]

I thought you were gonna tie it to Bill Gates, to Steve Ballmer.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh. So, I mean, it was available for me, but actually, like, what I've been doing is I'm like, okay, here are the organizations that Mark's involved with, the networks he moves in, and we've mentioned a number of them in the conversation already. We've mentioned your major league pickleball team, the George W. Bush Presidential center, where you gave the talk, got asked about DeAndre Jordan, without rehashing all the details.

[Mark Cuban]

Of the DeAndre Jordan commitment. Oh, you had to say his name. Okay, okay.

[Pablo Torre]

The Dallas Museum of Art, where you joked about LUCA with Bill Gates, of course, close to Steve Ballmer, and even I was looking at some other causes. By the way you do. Your charitable work is, like, real. Like, the Mavs under your administration, like the Southwestern Medical foundation, like, did really good. But there is something that I realize that you've not volunteered with me in these back and forths that we've had. And I wonder if you know what it is now that I've built up to this question.

[Mark Cuban]

I have no idea.

[Pablo Torre]

It turns out that Dennis Wong lives in Dallas.

[Mark Cuban]

Oh, he does.

[Pablo Torre]

It also turns out that Dennis Wong is involved with every one of those exact same organizations that you are that I just mentioned.

[Mark Cuban]

Really?

[Pablo Torre]

Dennis Wong also owns a major team based in Texas called the Texas Ranchers. He's the first face listed on the website's ownership group page serves. He owns the Ranchers. Oh, I know that Dennis Wong serves on the executive Advisory council of the George W. Bush Presidential Center.

[Mark Cuban]

I did not know that.

[Pablo Torre]

That Dennis Wong's on the board of trustees of the Dallas Museum of Art.

[Mark Cuban]

I did not know that.

[Pablo Torre]

Where his best friend's old business partner, Microsoft, Bill Gates, their old Harvard classmate, was invited to give a talk this year with.

[Mark Cuban]

You did not know that. Let me just say on this. Yeah, that was the first time I had met Bill Gates. And so his PR people called me and said, would you be interested. He's doing a book tour. Would you be interested in interviewing Bill? He's had different people interview him at all the different stops.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm.

[Mark Cuban]

I'm like, I'd never met Bill, and it sounds interesting. So that was the first time I had met him.

[Pablo Torre]

When is the first time you met Dennis?

[Mark Cuban]

He came to a Mavs game probably towards the end of last season. And there's probably. I think there's a picture of him being close to me in proximity. So somebody introduced me to him and said, yeah, he's Steve Ballmer's partner.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. He's also, you know, the alternate governor of the Clippers. Has been, according to LinkedIn, since April 2017.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay. Way.

[Pablo Torre]

So I'm just saying, like, did you guys ever encounter each other at the Board of Governors meetings for like a half dozen years than when you were.

[Mark Cuban]

I don't know that I have an Asian dude. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Not exactly looking like the other Balmer.

[Mark Cuban]

As best I remember, he was there every meeting.

[Pablo Torre]

But the alternate governor also can, you know.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. I mean, along. But Ballmer, like they did this year.

[Pablo Torre]

By the way, this year, Steve and Dennis both were in attendance at the Board of Governors.

[Mark Cuban]

Okay. I don't. I don't recall. I may have met Dennis this, but I do remember meeting him at a game. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So just to reiterate, he's not somebody that you talk to or anything like that.

[Mark Cuban]

Never.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Mark Cuban]

I've never had a conversation with him outside of being face to face.

[Pablo Torre]

Not even at Pickle Ball.

[Mark Cuban]

Not even a pickle when the Ranchers.

[Pablo Torre]

Are playing the Flash.

[Mark Cuban]

The never. I. I've yet to be, I'm sorry to admit, at a flash game or match or whatever they call them. But I root for him.

[Pablo Torre]

I can tell. I can tell. Well, so I guess we're near the end.

[Mark Cuban]

No, don't let it in.

[Pablo Torre]

I know, I know. So I just want to reiterate you haven't talked to Steve Ballmer, you haven't talked to Dennis Long, haven't talked to.

[Mark Cuban]

The NBA, haven't talked to Adam Silver, haven't talked to anybody associated with they feel about you. Oh, I don't care. They're probably like annoyed by it, knowing Adam. They're annoyed.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

You know, but they know that I take, you know, this is what I do. I like doing this stuff. I like the challenge.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Cuban]

And, and I've been there.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Mark Cuban]

I've been accused. I've been accused by people who didn't know. And you know, I was under the, in the firestorm.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh.

[Mark Cuban]

And so I've been there.

[Pablo Torre]

And I just want to make clear billionaires are people too.

[Mark Cuban]

Yeah. And it's not like we all hang out the whole billionaire meme thing. My friends are still my friends from high school, from college, from rugby. Those are my guys.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm merely saying that I am trying to understand the networks and how the money flows because I'm not one of you guys. I give opportunity to comment and fact check and push back at every opportunity for every episode.

[Mark Cuban]

And you deserve credit for that.

[Pablo Torre]

And I appreciate that. I'm not looking for, you know, a pat on the head, but I just want to make clear that none of this is a bad faith effort. It's why you're here, right? It's because I want no, and I appreciate it. Steel Manning, as they call it.

[Mark Cuban]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

I want not straw men, but steel men. Even those that get shot by Mark Wahlberg on Amazon. Do you think the Knicks at the end here should be worried about an upcoming episode of Mark Cuban finds out.

[Mark Cuban]

You know, that's behind me. You know, more power to jb, more power to everything. Was I happy that they only got dinged for a second round pick? No, no. It should have been far worse, but is what it is.

[Pablo Torre]

Do you remain Mark Cuban at the end here, Team Bomber?

[Mark Cuban]

Yes. I mean, 16 contractual payments, one investment that's within nine days of one of the payments is not enough to with Steve Ballmer. I think that was wrong. But thank you for letting me say my piece. I appreciate that and I deserve a lot of respect for that and I appreciate that. And there's no personal end, not in my at all.

[Pablo Torre]

I, I at the risk of being my own greatest enemy, I might even want to do this again.

[Mark Cuban]

We'll see what comes up next, right? I mean, my disappointment is only one folder access.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on. Do we have anything else?

[Mark Cuban]

I, I seriously thought about bringing my own folder.

[Pablo Torre]

I will simply say be careful what you wish for. This has been Pablo Torre finds out a Metal Arc Media production and I'll talk to you next time.

[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Mark Cuban]

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