Podcast Summary: “F**k Those Guys, We're Number One”: How an NBA Owner Fleeced America

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre (with Le Batard & Friends)
Date: April 2, 2024
Guest Correspondent: Sam Koppelman (Hunterbrook Media)

Overview of the Episode

This richly reported “talkumentary” follows Pablo Torre as he dives deep into the story of Matt Ishbia, billionaire owner of the Phoenix Suns, and his rise to dominance not just in the NBA but as CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage (UWM)—now America’s largest mortgage lender. The episode investigates how Ishbia’s aggressive, win-at-all-costs mentality in both business and sports echoes through the mortgage industry, potentially fleecing American homebuyers, and explores the questionable corporate governance and influence of embattled NBA Hall of Famer Isaiah Thomas within Ishbia’s empire. The story is built around newly published, data-driven investigative journalism from Hunterbrook Media and unpacks how vast sums of money, personal alliances, and regulatory blind spots shape both sports and financial capitalism in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Matt Ishbia: From Mortgage King to NBA Owner

• Opening Hook: The episode begins with Pablo describing Ishbia’s infamous courtside altercation with Nikola Jokic during last year’s NBA playoffs—a glimpse of his competitiveness and public debut to basketball fans (01:12).
• Ishbia’s Admiration for Isaiah Thomas: Pablo and guest Sam Koppelman trace Ishbia’s deep connection to Isaiah, who is both his idol and an instrumental (if unofficial) advisor in Phoenix Suns decision-making. “He’s my idol...the best point guard of all time.” (Matt Ishbia, 02:13)
• Phoenix Suns Culture Shift: After buying the Suns from disgraced former owner Robert Sarver for $4B, Ishbia moved quickly by acquiring stars (Durant, Beal) and through major front office changes, installing Isaiah Thomas’s associates while keeping Thomas himself officially in the background.

2. The Mortgage Feud: UWM vs Rocket Mortgage

• Industry Rivalry: Both Ishbia (UWM) and Dan Gilbert (Rocket Mortgage, owner of the Cavaliers) are Michigan-based, NBA team-owning mortgage magnates locked in an intense and personal business rivalry (12:14).

• Dan Gilbert abstained from the NBA’s approval vote on Ishbia’s ownership of the Suns. Ishbia responded on the Bill Simmons podcast:

  “He doesn’t like me and I don’t like him. His company used to be number one in mortgage…UWM is number one now.” (Matt Ishbia, 14:04)

• How Non-Bank Lenders Rose: Following 2008's crash, new regulations pushed banks out of mortgages, allowing risk-tolerant firms like UWM and Rocket to seize market share, operating as brokers between banks and consumers (16:01).

3. The Hunterbrook Media Investigation: How UWM “Fleeced” America

• Data Deep-Dive: Through federal and county mortgage data, Hunterbrook found UWM’s strategy: convert so-called “independent mortgage brokers” into “loyalists,” who send nearly all clients to UWM—often at higher-than-market rates (18:06).
• Explosive Voicemail: Ishbia’s leaked message celebrating his company’s rise:

  “We took those suckers down...We’re number one. We kick the shit out of them…Love you, man. Let’s fucking go.” (Matt Ishbia, 18:34)

• Consumer Impact: “These brokers, who people trust with the most important purchases of their life, are just sending him business instead of shopping for the best deal...That’s catastrophic.” (Sam Koppelman, 19:11)
• Broker ‘independence’ as Illusion: Many “independent” brokers (often highlighted in UWM marketing) actually route 99% of business to UWM, regardless of the better deals available elsewhere. These loyalists are routinely highlighted by the company (25:56).
• The ‘Ultimatum’ Policy: UWM forced brokers to sign agreements barring them from doing any business with Rocket Mortgage if they wanted to continue with UWM (23:15).
• Super Bowl “Find a Mortgage Broker” Ad: The site promoted in the ad elevates UWM’s top-producing, least-independent brokers (24:07).

4. Legality & Regulatory Loopholes

• Legal Gray Areas: Despite clear attempts to skirt post-crisis regulations meant to protect homebuyers, the legal experts cited by Hunterbrook uniformly suggest UWM’s tactics are outside the spirit—if not the letter—of the law (26:29).
• Massive Scale: Result is estimated $3B in additional closing costs paid by UWM’s borrowers over four years, relative to customers who used truly independent brokers (29:34).

5. Corporate Governance, The ‘Family Business,’ and Isaiah Thomas

• UWM’s “Board of Allies”: UWM is notionally public, but the Ishbia family retains 95% control. The board includes Ishbia, his father, his brother, former teammates, and Isaiah Thomas, whose independence as a board member is highly questionable (31:09).
• Isaiah Thomas’s Role: Despite being listed as a legally required “independent” director, Isaiah serves as a close advisor in both mortgage and NBA realms, earning six-figure compensation for his ceremonial independence.

  “Isaiah has been getting a six-figure salary from UWM for years for being a board member. And that is on top of the annual grants of stock that he gets in the company.” (Pablo Torre, 35:40)

• Recent Changes: UWM has recently dropped Thomas’s “independent” designation in official filings—potentially in anticipation of more direct Suns involvement, or due to the blatant conflicts now exposed (37:00).

6. How Ishbia Paid for the Suns—And What Could Happen Next

• Financial Engineering: The $4B Suns purchase was financed by a JP Morgan credit line collateralized with Ishbia’s UWM shares, making the NBA team hostage to the continued sky-high profits (from potentially abusive lending) at UWM (40:39).
• Systemic Risk?: Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen recently warned of the fragility of non-bank mortgage lenders like UWM—should they lose market confidence or legal standing, a rapid collapse is possible, with Ishbia at risk of losing the Suns (42:43).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On rivalry in the mortgage industry:
  "He doesn’t like me and I don’t like him... His company used to be number one in mortgage. UWM is number one now."
  — Matt Ishbia (14:04)

• On celebrating questionable broker loyalty:
  “We took those suckers down... We’re number one... I hate them with all my heart... We’re going to keep kicking ass... Let’s fucking go.”
  — Matt Ishbia, leaked broker voicemail (18:34)

• On the illusion of consumer advocacy:
  “These brokers, who people trust with the most important purchases of their life, are just sending him business instead of shopping for the best deal... That’s catastrophic.”
  — Sam Koppelman (19:11)

• On the scale of the problem:
  “Over the last four years, UWM has charged its home buyers in total an estimated $3 billion more than in closing costs compared to borrowers whose brokers found them the cheapest similar mortgage.”
  — Pablo Torre (29:34)

• On the UWM board of directors:
  “...the three whitest names possible to run a company like this. The next person listed is Isaiah Thomas, because of course, he is.”
  — Pablo Torre (32:15)

• On governance and basketball culture:
  “What UWM doesn't tell shareholders is the sports team they're running it like is the 2007 Knicks—a win-now mentality that is potentially hemorrhaging the company's future and a lot of people's mortgages.”
  — Sam Koppelman (40:05)

Most Memorable Exchange

• Pablo on the possible twist behind recent board filing changes:
  “The other hypothesis is that Matt Ishbia...is removing Isaiah Thomas’s independent designation... because he’s planning on potentially... firing some key members of his front office to install Isaiah Thomas formally, finally, on the masthead as a Phoenix Suns executive.”
  — Pablo Torre (46:34)
• Sam Koppelman’s dark punchline:
  “It’s like a buddy comedy, but it’s a horror film.”
  — Sam Koppelman (47:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:12] — The Jokic altercation & Matt Ishbia’s courtside debut
• [02:13] — Ishbia’s idolization of Isaiah Thomas
• [14:04] — Ishbia addresses feud with Gilbert on Bill Simmons podcast
• [18:34] — Leaked voicemail: Ishbia celebrating broker loyalty
• [19:11] — Brokers send clients to UWM at their expense
• [23:15] — “The ultimatum”: UWM’s non-compete broker contracts
• [24:07] — Super Bowl ad & the “findamortgagebroker.com” scheme
• [26:29] — Hunterbrook on legality and lawyers’ analysis
• [29:34] — $3B consumer cost identified
• [31:09] — Who’s on the board; “family business”
• [35:40] — Isaiah Thomas’ compensation and role
• [37:00] — Board independence withdrawn for Isaiah Thomas
• [40:39] — How Ishbia financed the Suns purchase
• [42:43] — Janet Yellen warns about non-bank lenders
• [46:34] — Theory: Did Pablo just “find out” the Isaiah Thomas end game?
• [47:39] — “Buddy comedy, but a horror film” wrap-up

Conclusion

“F**k Those Guys, We're Number One” is a captivating and deeply reported exposé that unpacks how Matt Ishbia’s rise in both the mortgage and NBA worlds reveals patterns of aggressive, self-serving capitalism—with everyday Americans often footing the bill. The episode’s reporting raises urgent questions about regulatory effectiveness, conflicts of interest, and the blurred lines between sports, business, and governance.

For more, see the full Hunterbrook Media report at www.hntrbrk.com

Tone: Insightful, direct, with a mixture of investigative rigor and sports-fan banter.
Recommended for: Anyone interested in the intersection of sports power, financial regulation, and the ways corporate America bends the rules.