← Pablo Torre Finds Out
Pablo Torre Finds Out
He Finds Music Stars. Now He's Helping Us Save the Life of a Wrongfully Convicted Man
00:53:28
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- [00:00]
Pablo Torre
Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
- [00:07]
Jason Flom
If you do get picked up and you're suspected of a crime, just say your name, your address, and then say the following words, I want a lawyer. And then shut the up right after this ad.
- [00:22]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
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- [01:17]
Pablo Torre
Wayfair Every Style, Every Home.
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Jason Flom
ACAST powers.
- [01:23]
Pablo Torre
The world's best podcasts.
- [01:25]
Jason Flom
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [01:29]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
Hi, I'm Cara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the Housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Plattesville, Kardashians, and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine. Airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts.
- [02:05]
Jason Flom
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [02:10]
Pablo Torre
Acast.com. I have lots of people on this show who have absurd resumes. You might be a gold medalist in this category.
- [02:27]
Jason Flom
Wow. I'm rarely speechless, but that introduction has left me at a loss for words.
- [02:33]
Pablo Torre
Jason Flom, thank you for being here, by the way.
- [02:35]
Jason Flom
Of course I'm thrilled to be here.
- [02:37]
Pablo Torre
Actually, I'm thrilled to have you hopefully help me understand what it is that you do in your current act. But act one, can we just start there with music?
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Jason Flom
Yeah, of course.
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Pablo Torre
You're the guy who personally discovered and or signed. How should we do the list? Do you want to give me the chronology here? Yeah.
- [02:55]
Jason Flom
If you want to do a chronological order, it Depends how old your listeners are. But it goes back to wow, the 80s. The first artist I ever signed was a band called Zebra. Big points to anyone who remembers them. Twisted Sister, Skid Row, Stone, Tuple Pilots, White Lion, Jewel, who will save your soul? We're going way back. I'm into Memory Machine, Tori Amos. Then I ended up leaving some out of course, just as Memory, Whatever. Escape Club. That was a funny one.
- [03:38]
Pablo Torre
Wow.
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Jason Flom
Wow West. Then I started my own company, which was Lava Records and Lava Records, which was a division of Atlantic at the time. Because I started at Atlantic and Lava had a great run with Matchbox 20. And Kid Rock and Trans Siberian Orchestra and Simple Plan and the Chorus and so many different acts. Porcupine Tree, et cetera, et cetera and Edward McCain. I'll be your crying shoulder I'll be. And then ultimately I ended up running Atlantic Records for a little while. Signed Paramore back then and then we move on to Virgin Records. I left Atlantic and went to Virgin where I was the 44 year old virgin. And then during that time at Virgin Capital was Katy Perry.
- [04:36]
Pablo Torre
As for you caught my attention.
- [04:42]
Jason Flom
A bunch of other acts, 30 Seconds to Mars and then ultimately left there to join the number one company in the music business, Republic Records, still number one to this day. And I've been with them ever since and have signed in the partnership with Republic acts like Jessie J and Lorde and Greta Van Fleet and many others. We have one called the Warning that's blowing up right now, Which is really exciting. So yeah, so it's been. The music business has been very good to me. I left out a lot of names. If you're listening and you're one of those names. Forgive me, my memory is not what it used to be. I've been very, very, very lucky in the music industry.
- [05:23]
Pablo Torre
Let's say that you have a sense of taste and a skill clearly that I want to understand, like, why are you good at this? But before we get to that, I do need to acknowledge that the artist that has the most current day present resonance is Kid Rock. And that is the sound of a man who knows where I'm going with this.
- [05:48]
Jason Flom
Yeah. I don't even know what to say. I mean it's.
- [05:52]
Pablo Torre
He name checked you in.
- [05:53]
Jason Flom
In a song, the seminal album Devil Without a Cause. He name checked me in the song I got one for you where he says, hey flom, you want to hit money? Hahaha. You want to hit money?
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Pablo Torre
I got one for you.
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Jason Flom
It was a very, very difficult process trying to break him because he didn't fit into any sort of real established box, but it was fun for that reason, and we knocked it out of the park, you know. Now. Now, I don't know. I don't know what.
- [06:50]
Pablo Torre
I need you to imagine that you're me for a second, and it's last December, and you're at this upscale holiday party in New York, and you randomly get introduced to this guy you've never met before who's wearing a hoodie and glasses, and he kind of looks like John Turturro, and he kind of sounds like Ray Romano. And the first thing this guy starts telling you about is his former life and obsession with sports.
- [07:15]
Jason Flom
Having been to rehab and then aa, I ended up in GA as well. Gamblers Anonymous makes Alcoholics Anonymous look like a picnic in the park with, you know, the Glee Club. It's not to minimize the problems that come from alcoholism and drugs, but Gamblers Anonymous, you really get a sense of how dark it can get when you're trapped in the throes of a gambling addiction. When I walked into the first meeting, they always ask the newcomers 20 questions. Have you ever, you know, lost a thing, this or that? All the things that gambling takes away from you? And the only question I answered no to is, have you ever considered killing yourself? Is there any result of camping? And I think almost everybody else in that room had gone 20 for 20.
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Pablo Torre
When did you know that when it came to sports betting, you had a problem?
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Jason Flom
When I walked into GA, I think I owed bookies $35,000. And this was like, you know, in the late 80s, right, where that was a lot of money, and I didn't have money. I had nothing in the bank.
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Pablo Torre
What were you betting on?
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Jason Flom
Mostly baseball, but also basketball, football. And I was betting $1,000. It came. You know, it was only because I'm a huge Mets fan that, you know, I stayed alive in 86 because the Mets won over 100 games that year on the World Series. But, you know, I was betting more money than I had on those World Series games. And now, you know, I just don't do it.
- [08:44]
Pablo Torre
Now, instead, Jason Flom's time is spent making bets of a different kind. One of his portfolios, as you already heard, is in music. He's this insanely prolific talent scout and the head of Lava Records. And in the music industry, Jason believes his superpower can be basically summarized in.
- [09:04]
Jason Flom
One word, and that word is instinct. Now, of course, Pablo, it's become a business that is driven by data to a meaningful degree. And it's very sophisticated data. When I started the industry, we didn't have access to any of that kind of stuff, Although I used to call record stores just to ask, like, are there any local acts that kids are looking for? Is anybody. I'd call clubs. I'd call anybody that might know about something that was brewing.
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Pablo Torre
Which is how his all star roster of prospects includes everyone from Lord to the dude who performed at the Turning Point USA super bowl halftime show last week, to a young hit band like the Warning.
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Jason Flom
These three sisters from Monterey, Mexico, who just, they played like Metallica. I was like, what are they doing? It was nuts.
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Pablo Torre
But the night Jason Flom for scouted the Warning, it turns out, takes us straight to this whole other set of calls that he spends his time making, calls about his most important prospects at this point, and lately ours.
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Jason Flom
And here's where the worlds collide. Pablo this particular night, and it was, I think maybe six years ago, a woman named Devin o' Connor, who works at Lava for me, she had said to me, you gotta go to the Mercury Lounge tonight. It was the middle of the winter. This band called the Warning is playing. You gotta go check them out. I knew nothing about them, but I said, okay, I'll go. And it was a frigid night in New York City. But on the way down there, I got a call from a guy who I had been trying to help because he had come to me for help because his father was scheduled to be executed for murdering his mother. So here is this guy who reached out to me and said the dad's name was Donnie Cleveland Lance. They were just kids when their father, Donnie Lance, was convicted of brutally killing their mother. As adults, Jesse Lance and Stephanie Cape say their dad has always played a big part of their life despite being behind bars. We have always included Daddy in every major decision in our lives. We are closer to our father in prison than a lot of our friends are to their fathers who live near them. The two wrote in a letter to the state parole board. But the relief they sought didn't come. On Tuesday, the board denied Lance's request for clemency. His execution is scheduled for Wednesday night. But I wasn't aware that this was the particular night that he was scheduled to be executed. And that night I got a call on my way down to the Mercury Lounge from Jesse, who's his son, who said, they executed my dad tonight. And he said they dumped his last meal on the floor. I mean, even now I'm getting chills thinking about it. Like, six years ago, I was like, they did what? And he goes, yeah, you know, he tried to pick up some fries and stuff, but that was all he got to eat. And I was like, I was so disgusted. I was so angry. And, you know, I get to the Mercury Lounge, and truth be told, I think I did a shot in his honor. I don't do shots. I mean, I can't remember the last time I did one other than that, but I just was like, I had to do something. And so I took one shot at tequila. Didn't want to be there at all. Didn't want to be anywhere, honestly, after that.
- [12:31]
Pablo Torre
That was in the state of Georgia. I'm looking at the article now. Yeah, the state of Georgia did that.
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Jason Flom
Right? So it was Georgia. So both of the children. Both of his children who lost their mother had begged the parole board not to kill their father. And the parole board didn't care. People sometimes say to me, don't you think that victims families should have some say in the sentence if they think a death penalty or this or that? And I'm like, well, they don't have any say when it's the other way around. No one listens to them. I've seen so many cases where the family has begged for an execution, not to go forward, even if a guy was guilty. Right. But they don't want to see somebody else die. They don't want that. And the state, no matter which state it is, is like, off. We don't care about your feelings, but we should care about your feelings only if you agree with us that we should dole out the harshest punishment possible in almost every case. So I'm like, it's gotta cut both ways. And Donnie's is an extreme case because it's the children who lost their freaking mother and wanted their dad not to be executed for not killing their mother and wanted them to state to go find who actually did it. But none of those things are ever going to happen. He's dead.
- [13:41]
Pablo Torre
But what you just said in that story, which I didn't know anything about, that is what your brain is like now.
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Jason Flom
Yeah.
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Pablo Torre
You are on your way to sign hit musical acts, it turns out, while also managing an inbox that has become your current act. And I want to understand when you started taking an interest in wrongful conviction, which is the name of your show, as well as your passion. When did that become apparent to you? I need to find a way to do this over here. I'm gonna find the next Tori Amos. And also I need to talk to Donnie Cleveland, Lance because no one else is giving a.
- [14:21]
Jason Flom
This phase of my life began in a very unexpected and sort of sudden way in 1993, when I saw an article in the New York Post, of all places. The New York Post. A newspaper that I probably never bought until that day and have never bought again. And no one should ever buy but the. Sorry, what can I say? But anyway. But this particular day, the other newspapers were sold out. So I bought the New York Post. Cause I was getting in a taxi.
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Pablo Torre
You got crushed that you're disavowing the New York Post at this point. But I digress.
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Jason Flom
So I was getting in a taxi and I wanted something to read. But this was when we didn't have phones to distract us constantly while we were sitting in the back of a taxi. 1993. So I bought the Post, and there was a story that I was obviously meant to read. And the story was a story about a kid named Stephen Lennon who had just been denied clemency by Governor Mario Cuomo. In spite of the fact that the sentencing judge, the warden, and even Geraldine Ferraro, and some of you will remember her, she was the first woman to ever receive a nomination for vice president from one of the two major political parties in this country. So she had even written a letter on his behalf. And yet this kid had been turned down for parole. What was he in for? Well, he was doing 15 to life on a nonviolent first offense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prison in New York State. He was in Dannemora, and he had gotten a college degree or two in prison. And he had done all these different things. He was 32, I was 32. He had been in prison for eight years. I had been sober by this point for almost eight years. And I was like, I'm an atheist. But there before the grace of something higher than me goes I. Right. So I felt like I gotta do something about this. Cause it very well could have been me. And I knew it. And so I decided to just try. And I called his mother, Shirley. Cause her name was in the phone book. She lives in Rome, New York. I offered my help. I said, I don't have a lot of money, which I didn't. But I'll send you what I can in order to help you get a new lawyer. I don't know how this stuff works. I'm not a lawyer. Everyone thinks I am. I'm a high school graduate. So I called the only criminal defense lawyer I knew at the time, a guy named Bob Kalina. He represented skid Row and Stone Temple Pilots. His partner was their music lawyer and they were getting busted frequently back.
- [16:40]
Pablo Torre
I was gonna say, this feels like a useful person to have if you're between bands.
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Jason Flom
Scott Weiland and Sebastian Bach. He was on Speed D. I like that.
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Pablo Torre
Sebastian Bach was one of the dominoes that tipped over to get you.
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Jason Flom
I know, it's kind of perfect. So I love Sebastian. Anyway, so I called Bob. I said, what can be done? He goes, nothing. There's nothing you can do. He goes, it's the Rockefeller drug laws and it just is what it is. It's thousands of cases like this. And I said, well, Bob, do me a favor, talk to Shirley on the phone, will you? Because it's really bugging me. So he came to my office, talked to her on the phone. He said, look, I'll read the transcripts of the trial. So he calls me up a month later and he says, ah, you know, I found a loophole, an angle. It's not going to work, but I've been meaning to take a case pro bono anyway, so I'll try it. I go, great. Six months later, we end up in Malone, New York, in the courthouse. And I'm sitting there holding Mrs. Lennon's hand. Her son, her husband Stan was on the other side of her. The judge was this old guy with white hair. I thought, this is not going to go well. And they bring Stephen in in shackles, right? His legs are chained together, his hands are chained to his waist. I'm like, didn't it say in the paper nonviolent first offender? I'm like, doesn't that seem a little extreme? Well, whatever. So the arguments go back and forth. I literally have no idea what anyone's talking about. I still had a mullet and purple Doc Martens. Okay, so that's what we're talking about here. And I have pictures to prove it.
- [18:07]
Pablo Torre
I don't like the odds of anything that's about to happen.
- [18:10]
Jason Flom
No. So the judge, after hearing whatever everybody had to say, bangs the gavel down and says, the motion is granted. And so Bob, sort of chubby Bob in his three piece suit, the lawyer comes scurrying over and I'm like, bob, what happened? And he goes, we won. And I was like, we what? I don't know if he was more surprised than I was. He was like, we won. And I was like, holy, that's the best thing I've ever heard. And so I decided that in there that if this was my superpower, then I was gonna use it for as long As I could, as often as I could. And so that led me to join the board of Families Against Mandatory Minimums, which I read about in Rolling Stone magazine. I became the first board member there. And then soon after that, I saw something on TV about a case that the Innocence Project had won, where they had gotten a guy who was scheduled to be executed. They had found the DNA, these two geniuses, Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld, with their law books and their microscopes.
- [19:09]
Pablo Torre
The founders of the Innocence Project.
- [19:10]
Jason Flom
Correct? Right. I joined the Innocence Project board, and ever since, I've been obsessed with helping people get out of prison. And you just met one of them who came home 10 days ago. So it's just what I do. Luckily, I'm good at it.
- [19:28]
Pablo Torre
And you were referring to Avi, who is behind the glass of a podcast studio now, which is a fantastic revelation to meet him. And so the question of when you were looking at, is this person going to be a star? Is this a prospect worth signing? And now your self imposed responsibility is I got to figure out which cases I can turn my attention to and platform in the way that I am. You're a record executive in a different way. Still dealing with records, different kind of executive. Was there any skill in what you used to do and still do and what you're doing with Wrongful Conviction?
- [20:10]
Jason Flom
Well, this is why your show is one of my favorite shows to listen to, because you're only the second person that's ever drawn that connection. And it was Jeff Kempler, my partner and great friend of over 30 years, who's the COO of Lava Media, my company. So he runs the podcast the Wrongful Conviction and the whole Lava for Good podcast platform. And he said that it's a similar instinct that allows you to identify not just cases, but also causes. And I'm very proud that I've been able to identify future leaders in the criminal justice reform space who I've been able to provide some seed funding for or other assistance who've gone on to help move the needle dramatically in the fight to end the disastrous failed social policy and wildly expensive social policy known as mass incarceration. So, of course, my wife, Kalia, who is the daughter of Muhammad Ali, who's on your T shirt today, which is.
- [21:16]
Pablo Torre
So great, I didn't plan my Thrill in Manila shirt has been featured many times on this show, never with one of his in laws, as we are here today.
- [21:24]
Jason Flom
Yeah, so she works with me on this stuff day in and day out. You know, the day after our wedding we went to Texas to try to help prevent the execution of Robert Roberson.
- [21:35]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
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Jason Flom
And our first anniversary, we were on death row in Texas visiting a guy who's innocent, has been in for 30 years, and we're hoping we're going to be able to help him come home. Another horrible case. So, yeah, it's just, it's a big part of our life and we wouldn't have it any other way. And I'm just so lucky that she is her father's daughter in every conceivable way. She has her father's spirit and she has his courage, and she walks into these places and it's almost like the seas part. And of course, she's also super helpful because, you know, she can. Well, it's got to the point, Pablo, it's so funny where, you know, I, when my phone rings, it's most of the time it's somebody calling me from prison or someone who's recently been freed. Many of the people who we're advocating for where if they call my phone and I don't pick up, they just call her phone or vice versa. Right.
- [22:25]
Pablo Torre
But with the question of you could have a life that does not require you to go into these places and take these calls, and many people work their entire lives to specifically avoid the very thing that you're running towards. And having now been a person who met you in a way that only reflects my ignorance because I was like, oh, wait a minute, you're the wrongful conviction guy. Oh, wait a minute. And you're wearing, of course, your own merch. And I'm like, slow on the uptick at this fancy apple podcasts like party event, cocktail past hors d' oeuvre sort of a thing. And I'm like, my show. We just started looking into the thing that it turns out you've done 560plus episodes about with the story of Charles Don Flores.
- [23:14]
Jason Flom
The Charles Don Flores case. It's so crazy that in our crazy life where we're immersed in this stuff day in and day out, and each time I think I've heard it all right, And I'm always like, that's it. Like, I, I, I can't anymore. This is, it's too nuts, right? But now I've heard everything. And then of course, the next one comes. And of course, Kalia. We're together almost all the time. We travel together, we do everything together, we go to prisons together, we go to wherever we go. And during our recent snowstorm, we're having. I was watching the video on my laptop on the couch on the opposite side of the room from where she was. And I didn't even think she was paying attention. And 15 minutes in, because she was working on whatever she was working on. Fifteen minutes in, Kalia goes, this guy's gotta be at the top of our priority list. Like, this is insane. And so I hope everybody has that same reaction. I hope everybody watches that episode that you did and hears our voices today and wants to get involved. Because this case, this man, it's all just.
- [24:25]
Pablo Torre
It's beyond what jumped out to you about his case. Again, you've seen it all. What stuck out to you about him?
- [24:32]
Jason Flom
So this is a really easy story to tell. His presence is. I mean, he's an ethereal guy, right? I mean, he. Yeah, he can talk football with the best of them.
- [24:45]
Pablo Torre
And he is our Dallas Cowboys correspondent.
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Jason Flom
He's dialed in on NFL stuff way more so than I could ever be. But that's beside the point. He has this aura. Right.
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Charles Don Flores
I started hearing a bunch about meditation. I was reading about meditation. I was hearing about meditation on. On the radio. Everywhere I turned, it seemed like meditation was. Was coming at me. And I was like.
- [25:13]
Pablo Torre
I want to.
- [25:14]
Charles Don Flores
Learn how to meditate. And I did. And with the help of friends and people sending me books and that kind of thing, that was the key. That was the key of putting space between the awareness that is me and my ego, which is pride, which is anger, which is all of those things.
- [25:34]
Pablo Torre
Right?
- [25:34]
Charles Don Flores
And the more you meditate, the more the space is in between that. Right. And that was what gave me the. The handle on. On controlling is that. That makes sense.
- [25:47]
Pablo Torre
It's. It's frankly, the only thing that explains how you could be a Cowboys fan this long.
- [25:54]
Jason Flom
It's like a grace, you know? And again, I'm not a religious guy, but he is. And he's. He doesn't come across that way either. He just has this spirit that is unbroken. Not only unbroken, but it's indomitable. It's whatever you want to call it. He is transcending his circumstances. So much so that even though you're watching him in this. And I've been to death row in Texas four times.
- [26:18]
Pablo Torre
Right. The Polanski unit in Livingston.
- [26:20]
Jason Flom
I've been in that room that you were in, right, with the vending machines and the whole thing.
- [26:23]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
- [26:24]
Jason Flom
It's shocking how many innocent people are on death row in Texas or all over the country or in any of the states where they have the death penalty still. But, Charles, it's not unique because there are others that have this almost unreal ability to transcend their circumstances and their surroundings. But then when you get into the circumstances of his case and you go, what? Like. And so what I mean by that, for people who haven't heard your episode already, I will summarize it very succinctly. So in the late 90s, the woman named Betty Black, 64 year old woman who lived outside of Dallas, had her home broken into and she was killed during this. I guess it was a botched robbery. Two guys drove away. One witness saw the two guys and she described them as white guys with long Jesusy type of hair, whatever. Right.
- [27:23]
Pablo Torre
Tall white guys, long dark hair. Right.
- [27:26]
Jason Flom
Charles is not a tall white guy with long dark hair. Never was.
- [27:29]
Pablo Torre
Not even close.
- [27:30]
Jason Flom
Not even close. Charles. Don Flores, Locomotive look him up.
- [27:33]
Pablo Torre
He's always been more of a lineman than a wide receiver.
- [27:37]
Jason Flom
Yeah. So they knew who the shooter was. He pled guilty to being the shooter. And there was no evidence connecting Charles to the crime. And he had alibis. So all of this presents for a very difficult case to make against him.
- [27:53]
Pablo Torre
If the thing that you're wondering is, should this guy be killed by the state? He didn't kill the woman. No physical evidence at the scene and doesn't match the description from the eyewitness so far it would seem logical to say probably shouldn't kill this guy, shouldn't.
- [28:12]
Jason Flom
Convict him, shouldn't sentence him and shouldn't kill him.
- [28:15]
Pablo Torre
All of it.
- [28:17]
Jason Flom
No one's ever claimed he was the shooter.
- [28:19]
Pablo Torre
The thing about Richard Childs is that again, he says, I killed Betty Black, it wasn't Charles. That was never the accusation that Charles was the murderer of Betty Black.
- [28:32]
Jason Flom
Right. So here you have the actual killer, who I understand his father is a cop, is that correct?
- [28:38]
Pablo Torre
Yes. There is a depth to this story. Yes. That we don't even have. We didn't have time to even get into. But there is much more to look into.
- [28:46]
Jason Flom
Which makes it very similar to the Rob Will case, by the way, which is another innocent guy on death row in Texas, right down the hall from Charles, but. So the state decided that they would allow Richard to take a plea. But they still had this problem of how the hell they were going to convict Charles with no evidence whatsoever. Well, they solved that problem by hypnotizing the witness.
- [29:15]
Pablo Torre
And you were familiar with forensic hypnosis before this whole thing?
- [29:20]
Jason Flom
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that before. In fact, one of the earliest episodes we ever did was a guy named Keith Allen Harward, Newport News case, Virginia. And he was. He did. He ended up doing 34 years, narrowly avoided the death penalty. And it was the same thing. They hypnotized the witness. But in this case, they use this forensic hypnosis technique.
- [29:42]
Pablo Torre
And there's a video which we play in the episode. You can see these cops in Texas, like, do the. Basically the. You're getting sleepy. Like, it's not that far off from that. Have you ever seen the documentary film, like, on tv, like the. With the Animal Kingdom show?
- [30:00]
Jason Flom
Or, you know.
- [30:01]
Pablo Torre
Okay, what we're going to do is.
- [30:03]
Jason Flom
Is, is when we get you into.
- [30:05]
Pablo Torre
A deep state of hypnosis, we're going.
- [30:07]
Jason Flom
To take you to a theater.
- [30:08]
Pablo Torre
It's going to be your own private theater. And basically what it is, you're going.
- [30:13]
Jason Flom
To be seeing in the documentary, and you're going to be seeing the film of the events that occurred on that day, on that morning. Okay?
- [30:20]
Pablo Torre
And you're like, this is scientifically and legally allowed, or was.
- [30:25]
Jason Flom
And that's another thing. So using this dubious is too kind of a word, but using this junkiest of junk science. And we did a whole season of wrongful conviction, where we call it wrongful conviction junk science, where each week we delved into a different one of the junk sciences. Which ones, you ask? Well, we did everything from arson to blood spatter to boot print analysis to forensic odontology, which is teeth marks, hair analysis. They're pure junk. And so. But they're none more junky than the forensic hypnosis, which of course, is just. It would be funny if it wasn't so sick and so devastating if the consequences were so devastating in this case. So they hypnotized this woman, you can watch it yourself, a week after she had initially not identified Charles. And they managed to induce her, I would say, into identifying a guy who wasn't there. And sure enough, using that technique, they were able to secure his conviction. Well, fast forward to. He's on death row, he brings a suit. The Texas courts, they said this can no longer be an accepted practice. Forensic hypnosis in Texas criminal cases. The crazy thing is, and this is not the only time I've seen this, not by a stretch. They refused to make this change. Retroactive.
- [31:55]
Pablo Torre
That part.
- [31:56]
Jason Flom
That part.
- [31:57]
Pablo Torre
Like the Dallas Morning News, they do a long investigative series about forensic hypnosis. They mention Charles Flores. This is part of the impetus to effectively shame the state of Texas into changing what is on the books, which is to say they officially rule that you can't use forensic police hypnosis. In a criminal trial, you can't do it anymore, but it does not apply if it's already happened. And that is, is. Is so illogical to me.
- [32:29]
Jason Flom
It happens a lot in our criminal legal system. It's really weird how you can say that if you did the same thing that we're now saying, like, for instance, with sentencing, you see, this time to time, well, we'll reform sentencing laws, but we won't make them retroactive. It's like the old saying, how'd you like to be the last guy to know an unjust war? How'd you like to be the last guy sentenced under the old sentencing laws, for instance, the old crack cocaine sentencing laws? And I was, you know, I was a big advocate for, for reforming those back when they used to be 100 to 1. In 2010, they were rolled back to make them 18 to 1, but they weren't made retroactive. The Republicans wouldn't allow it to be made retroactive. So those guys who are unlucky enough to be convicted under the old laws were just left there to languish while some other guy would come into the same prison with a new conviction for the same crime that they committed, but be sentenced to 82% less time because they made it, they changed it from 100 to 1 to 18 to 1. The crack cocaine disparity, again, that was the best deal that could be made with the Republicans at that time who didn't want that law changed. There's no way to make sense out of it. Both things can't be true that it was okay before, but not okay now or the other way around, whatever it is. And as these changes are made in practices like this, very welcome change to the forensic hypnosis practice in Texas, they absolutely should be done retroactively, and it should be an automatic cause for relief or a new trial or something.
- [33:59]
Pablo Torre
A new trial, right. And so all Charles has been fighting for is, can you hear my story.
- [34:04]
Charles Don Flores
With regards to my case? Man, I just want a fair review. I just want a fair shot. The Dallas County Prosecution Office, the Dallas da, they have a Convictions Integrity Unit. And I want them to look at my case. I want them to review the case, give it a look. Let the evidence speak for itself.
- [34:27]
Pablo Torre
Can we go back into court? And we can now, with light of day, after more than a quarter century of, again, almost entirely solitary confinement, can we allow me to get a new hearing?
- [34:42]
Jason Flom
And let us not forget that the actual killer was paroled in 2016. Right.
- [34:47]
Pablo Torre
So he's been out for 10 years yeah.
- [34:49]
Jason Flom
While Charles has been sitting in a, you know, tiny cell, a dungeon, effectively, on Texas death row, where sometimes for a year or more, they don't even see sunlight, not even allowed outside, you can't help but wonder how he maintains, how he hasn't lost his mind. And the noise and the this and the terrible food and the, you know, just like the. The loneliness, the total lack of any type of appropriate human contact. Right. You can't even. Visits from family. You are done through bulletproof glass if you're lucky enough to have any family that visits you. Right, right.
- [35:25]
Pablo Torre
And the resentment, which I would imagine is a necessary condition of all of this, just like Richard Childs is out, the guy who killed this woman. And I'm in here because. Also, by the way, another wrinkle on the legal system in Texas is that there is the law of parties, which means that if you were there, allegedly, if you were there and were convicted to have been there, an accessory to this crime, you are treated, sentenced as if you yourself committed capital murder.
- [35:52]
Jason Flom
It's shocking to a lot of people, and it should be shocking to everyone, the idea that the state can say, we know you didn't kill anybody, but we're going to execute you anyway.
- [36:12]
Pablo Torre
When my daughter was born, my perspective on life changed in an instant. Suddenly, my mind wasn't just thinking about what was for dinner tomorrow. I was thinking years ahead about childcare and her future college tuition and all the milestones that you can't wait to see. And the one thing that was constantly on my mind is what would happen to them if something happened to me. Part of loving my family meant thinking about their future, even in the uncomfortable ways. And while life insurance is not a fun topic, it is one you need to think about. And so that's why I am so glad I found out about Ethos. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy and 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and get same day coverage. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few simple health questions. It is so simple that you really have no excuse to not check it out. You can get up to $3 million in coverage with some policies as low as $30 a month. And you can be sure that you're getting the right coverage from a trusted Source. As of March 2025, Business Insider named Ethos the number one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. Plus, Ethos has 4.8 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot with over 3,000 reviews. So help protect your family. With life insurance through Ethos. Get your instant free quote@ethos.com PTFO that's ethos.com PTFO application times and rates may vary. So I just heard something that totally shocked me recently which is that teens spend an average of 9 hours per day on screens outside of school, which basically is a full time job of just scrolling mindlessly. And there are also tons of studies that show just how bad that is for them. From feeling overwhelmed or worse about their lives to high risks of depression and anxiety. Teens and phones just do not mix. And with daughter myself I am constantly worried about when she reaches an age where we gotta have the phone talk. But here's the good news. Gab Wireless has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in Steps works by providing kids safe phones and watches with no social media and tailored to every age. Offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens, each device allows them to safely grow their independence. The bottom line? You don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab which keeps them socially connected safely, which means no social media and no Internet apps. Gab just makes sense to me. So use our code to get the best deal on something that'll make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gab.compablo torre and use code Pablo Torre for a special offer. That's Gab G A B B Knock knock.
- [38:58]
Jason Flom
Ooh, who's there?
- [38:59]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
A Boost Mobile expert here to deliver.
- [39:01]
Pablo Torre
And set up your all new iPhone.
- [39:02]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.
- [39:05]
Pablo Torre
You call that a knock knock joke? This isn't a joke.
- [39:07]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
Boost Mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or work.
- [39:11]
Pablo Torre
Okay, it's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it. Like I said, this isn't a joke. So the knock knock was just you knocking? Yeah, that's how doors work. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro delivered and set up by an expert wherever you are. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply. What would people be surprised most buy if they hadn't spent more than the time they've taken to listen to this episode about just how this system works?
- [39:47]
Jason Flom
The fact is that 97% of felony convictions in this country, around 97%, are the result of guilty pleas. The reason why so many people keep guilty even if they're innocent is because they're smart enough to recognize that the odds are stacked against you. And when I say that, first of all, everybody watches these shows like Law and Order, and they get this impression that everything works fine, the authorities are doing their level best. They're going to get all the bad guys off the street. The bad guys are really bad. The good guys are really good. The scientists are great, the witnesses are great and courageous and brave, and everything's perfect, more or less. Right.
- [40:25]
Pablo Torre
Sometimes the cops are very horny, but we allow that because they're solving mysteries, just like Sherlock Holmes.
- [40:31]
Jason Flom
So unfortunately, that is a very, very far stretch from the truth. Then you add to that the fact that the overwhelming majority of the public are assigned public defenders, and they relatively quickly come to find out that that person doesn't have time to visit them in jail, where they're most likely being held before trial because they're too poor to post bail, which is unconstitutional. But that's a separate story because judges have to, by virtue of the Constitution, they have to post bail according to your ability to pay it. But that's almost never adhered to. So there you are, sitting in jail for a year, two years more. And jails in many places, including New York, are worse than prisons. They're more chaotic. There's no recreation. It might not be a law library, a toxic mixture of the most violent people with the innocent people, with people who couldn't pay parking tickets to, you name it, and everything in between. And so there's no sort of. There's no sort of order at all. And most people will do anything to get out of that environment. And you got to figure a lot of the people in jails, a higher percentage of people in jails are innocent than people in prisons. But so now your lawyer maybe shows up to visit you, maybe never does. It's a big schlep for them to go to the jail, go through the processing. It's a whole day pay. Right. Basically, they make it difficult on purpose.
- [41:58]
Pablo Torre
Yep.
- [41:59]
Jason Flom
So if you do get to visit your lawyer, you may quickly come to realize that even they may be doing their level best, but they're juggling hundred or more cases. That's not hyperbole. They're also juggling figuring out how to pay rent. You know, in New York City, legal aid has many attorneys who drive Uber at night or doordash, or they do whatever they do to make ends meet, because they can't make ends meet on the salary that they're being paid. They're overworked, they're underpaid, they're exhausted. They're juggling a lot of cases, and they may tell you that your best chance is to plead guilty. You're going to be also looking at a situation where the state. Avi was just telling me this morning about a guy that he was in prison with in New Jersey who I think is still there, who was offered three years and is serving 45, Messiah Johnson, who I spoke to this morning from Virginia. He was offered three years and got.
- [42:55]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
Sentenced to 132 years in prison for a beauty salon robbery on 35th street in Norfolk. No one was killed or hurt, and there was no physical evidence connecting Johnson to the crime. And there was also conflicting testimony at trial. Before leaving office in January, Governor Terry McAuliffe said there is credible evidence that supports Mr. Johnson's claims of being innocent.
- [43:19]
Jason Flom
A lot of people will say, you know what? I don't have a snowball's chance in hell against the state and its infinite resources. Witnesses that may be incentivized to lie. Cops, prosecutors, who may be playing fast and loose. And that's probably a polite way of putting it. And so they take the plea. So I think people really need to understand that if you know, first of all, this could happen to you. It could happen to anyone. It normally happens to people who are poor, people of color, people who are disenfranchised, but it does happen to others as well, and it can happen to anyone. Wrong place, wrong time, big problems. Most important thing to know, and I'm so glad we get a chance to tell your audience this is if you do get picked up and you're suspected of a crime, just say your name, your address, and then say the following words, I want a lawyer, and then shut the up. Because nothing you can say, it doesn't matter if you're innocent. And most people, ironically, most innocent people, waive their Miranda rights because they think, why would I need my Miranda rights? I'm innocent. I'll tell the truth. And just like on tv, I'll go home. Well, you know what? That's your first mistake, and it may be your last mistake, because once they start talking to you, they have all sorts of ways of getting you to say stuff that you would never imagine that you would have gone and said because you didn't know, because you're up against forces that you cannot control. And they may not be smarter than you, but they certainly are more experienced than you are. And they want one thing, which is to solve this case.
- [44:56]
Pablo Torre
The thing you keep on discovering over 550 plus episodes, right, is that it seems there are these incentives to convict, there are incentives to find guilty people. And. And there is no countervailing, structural protection against what is the gravity of the state.
- [45:18]
Jason Flom
That's very well said. And I talk about that a lot, how it is that we have reverse and even perverse incentives for people to close the case. You know, an attorney who's been practicing for over 40 years, a defense attorney in California, told me that he'll often, at the end of his closing argument, he'll say to the jury, when the prosecutor goes back to his office, no one's going to ask him, did you get justice? They're going to say, did you win? And we're in the culture in this world of winning. And when you think about it, they're getting pressure from their boss who might be putting pressure from their boss who's going, pablo, clean this up. It's getting hot, right? I don't. I got a reelection coming. Whatever it is, do this. And this is very common for police, prosecutors, whoever. At the end of the day, most cases don't get solved right. When you get up to murder, it's still 50% of cases that are solved nationally. And then even of the cases that they do solve, many of them are solved wrong. And when you solve the case wrong and someone ends up on my podcast as a result, who's innocent? I think something that people don't think about, maybe it's uncomfortable to think about it, but when there's a violent crime, murder or otherwise, in which there's an actual victim, and you go and railroad an innocent person, you are working in service of the guilty person. Whoever the second perpetrator was in the Charles Don Flores case was probably at the club popping bottles when he got convicted because they know they're done. They're no longer. They're not looking for anybody else. They got their conviction. I'm straight now. Who else are we gonna go rob tonight?
- [47:31]
Pablo Torre
You know, whatever your view is on prosecutors and public defenders. And I have friends who became prosecutors and friends who became public defenders. And I like to think that everybody's in service of justice, of the truth, right? That's the best version of a system there is, a balancing act between a defense and a prosecution. And in that pursuit, we get to the closest thing we get as flawed meat, sex towards accountability for those who did wrong. The problem is that if you don't understand how unfair that fight is when it comes to people without resources, especially you are not doing something resembling truth seeking. You are servicing money. And that is where I'm like, Charles Flores is a guy without resources, clearly. And the question becomes, how do you begin to give him what the state will not grant him as we sit here today, which is a hearing, both a consideration in general for the human suffering they've already enacted upon him, but also something resembling the pursuit of justice. And because of how we have outlined this whole story, at the end of that freedom, like you have answered this In 550 plus episodes, you're going to tell stories and interview people. I don't know how else to help beyond telling people that you should take some time to listen to this man's voice and listen to the story that the state of Texas does not really give a about that you need to hear.
- [49:30]
Jason Flom
Well, look, the one thing that we've learned is that Lorenzo Johnson, who was a dear friend of Kalia's and mine, who was wrongfully convicted twice in Pennsylvania and served 22 years of a life sentence, and when he was in prison, he decided he was going to get as much attention brought to his case as he could. He was going to get the newspapers writing about, he's going to get tv, he's going to get whatever. And his lawyers are like, no, no, no, that's going to piss everybody off. Don't do that. And he was like, I'm doing it because I'm stuck here. I'm doing it. And you know what? He got himself out. I mean, there were many people who helped him, but he got himself out. And he always says one thing they don't like is tomorrow's headlines. And so what we've learned is that when you're able to bring attention to these cases, oftentimes stuff starts to change. When they're allowed to exist in darkness, nothing seems to change. And of course there's exceptions, but others who have created media around these cases have brought pressure to the bear that oftentimes causes the authorities to act or at least look into stuff which can then start a domino effect or it leads to another outlet publishing a thing or a newspaper. And so reason I say this is you who are listening now are not powerless. You may know of somebody who is wrongful, convicted, over sentenced, unfairly tried, etc, and by speaking up about it on social media, talking about it in any forum that you can, that you can get talking about it in the diner, anywhere, you never know who's listening. And stuff starts to change and it's amazing when it does. You know, you may know somebody who knows somebody. Maybe you can get a meeting with your local congressperson, or you can. Who knows, maybe you have a distant relation who knows the governor of whatever state you're in. And, you know, you gotta try. I mean, my story is a series of these type of miracles. I didn't know what the I was doing, but I got Stephen Lennon out, and he's never gone back to prison, and he's had a great life, raised a family, paid a lot of taxes, built a business, you know, like, he didn't need to be in prison. We need to take a different approach. We incarcerate people in America at a rate that is five times the rate of Western Europe or the rest of the Western world, 14 times the rate of Japan. What we do know is that what works locally is that if you devote a tiny fraction of the resources that we spend on these awful practices over surveilling people, brutalizing them. If you take a tiny fraction of that money and build a community center, or much less than that, you just pick the garbage up off the streets in the area where the violence is most concentrated. Every city has an area of probably two or three blocks where it's most concentrated. Square blocks. If you fix the street lights, if you put a taco stand, a little green space. It's amazing. Crime falls. We've known this for a long, long time. And my whole theory on Pablo is it's very freaking simple. What causes crime is desperation. Prove me wrong. Okay, desperation. And people say, oh, what about mental illness? That's desperation. Untreated mental illness causes desperation. Extreme poverty. But, okay, what prevents crime is a much smaller word. Hope.
- [53:25]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got style tips for every home. This is Stiles Mackenzie helping you make those rooms sing today's style. When it comes to making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table. From wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.
- [53:51]
Pablo Torre
Wayfair Every style, Every home.
- [53:54]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
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- [54:30]
Pablo Torre
If you are going to wield the power of execution, as our government does, as certain states still do in this country, you would imagine that they would wield it so carefully. And yet when I listen to Charles Flores and when I go and read more about this, these are just cases that are not even in dispute anymore. Right. We're in the middle of the fight with Charles, but on the other side of it, there are so many cases. The Innocence Project has established how often it happens. The state doing it with our money to people who are innocent. It's, it's. And I just don't think people understand how broken, let alone perverse, that concept actually is.
- [55:19]
Jason Flom
Wasn't it Scalia who issued the opinion of the U.S. supreme Court that actual innocence is not a valid reason for a new trial and that that executions can proceed? And by the way, no other western country has had the death penalty in generations. None.
- [55:33]
Pablo Torre
It's one of those deeply American things we consider. Oh, because it's in movies, we're used to it, but it's not normal.
- [55:42]
Jason Flom
We kill people to show that killing people is wrong, make it make sense. At least 1 in 10 people that have been executed in this country have been innocent, which is wild.
- [55:52]
Pablo Torre
It's just unbelievable.
- [55:53]
Jason Flom
The great Bryan Stevenson says if one out of every 10 planes that took off crashed, nobody would fly. But we don't even do any forensic analysis of these things. We don't even. Like when there's a plane crash, you don't have a whole slew of people that come in with all sorts of fancy titles and degrees and they analyze every single thing and they figure out what went wrong. No, none of that happens here. And we know that states that have the death penalty have always had higher murder rates than states that don't. So clearly the death penalty is not a deterrent.
- [56:21]
Pablo Torre
So I want to just get to the end here by returning to Charles. Right. Because Charles is now for us here at Pablo Torre finds out in our audience the human face on a larger issue, clearly. But insofar as we can do anything, we would like to help him because time is running short. And so one of the things that I'm so glad to tell our audience is that you're also trying to get down there to see him.
- [56:51]
Jason Flom
We're planning on doing an episode of Wrongful Conviction as quickly as we can of the podcast, probably hosted by Maggie Freeling, who's this Pulitzer Prize winning journalist based in Texas and just an amazing, amazing investigative journalist. So most likely she'll be the one going in to visit Charles.
- [57:07]
Pablo Torre
Tremendous.
- [57:08]
Jason Flom
But we're working on it now. And I'm going to do everything I can to bring as much attention to this case as we possibly can because he deserves it and his case cries.
- [57:16]
Pablo Torre
Out for it whenever I listen from now on to not just wrongful conviction, but to Tori amos and matchbox 20 and skid row and Stone Temple Pilots and Twisted Sister and Katy Perry and Lorde and, you know, the warning and also still somehow Kid Rock. I'm also gonna think about Charles Flores and it's an honor really to spend time with you and to make sure that both of us are making sure that people hear his story.
- [57:42]
Jason Flom
Every one of my records gone number one or been big hits, whatever, they have all given me, you know, great deal of satisfaction, happiness. You know, it's great ego boost when you're a kid and you have a record before your friends do and you play it and then it becomes popular and it gives you social currency. I get to do the grown up version of that. Give me a lot of happiness. But none of those number one records compares to walking one person out of prison. And that's the difference between happiness and joy. So, you know, go find your happiness. Do whatever you do. My dad told me and my brother, do whatever you do, whatever you want to do, try to be the best at it, but just make the world a better place. And ultimately, hopefully, if you're lucky, like I was lucky to find a cause that really touched my heart, then you can ultimately find the same joy. And it makes me feel good to have Avi come over for breakfast and know that he's not, you know, calling me and, you know, from a frozen, a freezing cell or, you know, horrible circumstances. And he's now going to be out here making a difference in the world. It's why we're here, man. And so thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
- [58:50]
Pablo Torre
It's been a long time coming.
- [58:52]
Jason Flom
Let's do it again soon.
- [59:02]
Pablo Torre
And just one quick postscript, because the day after our last episode with Charles published, Charles Flores legal team did in fact file their Hail Mary cert petition at the US Supreme Court. And we will monitor that as it makes its way through the highest court in the land. But there is also a different kind of petition that we still hope you can personally sign. It's@actionnetwork.org petitionscharles and we'll put that link in the show notes too. This has been Pablo Torre Finds out produced by Metalark Media. We'll talk to you next time.
- [59:54]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfarer message. Wayfair's got style tips for Every home this is Stiles Mackenzie helping you make those rooms sing. Today's Style TIP when it comes to making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table from wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.
- [60:21]
Pablo Torre
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- [60:48]
Jason Flom
Place.
- [60:52]
Pablo Torre
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- [60:55]
Jason Flom
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [61:00]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
La Brega is back. This season, we're spending time with the people and symbols that represent Puerto Rico. We're proud Boricuas. And what does that mean?
- [61:09]
Jason Flom
And we are still in the fight.
- [61:14]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
We're telling stories about champions from a place worth fighting for. Stories that will inspire you no matter where you're from.
- [61:23]
Jason Flom
Wow.
- [61:23]
Podcast Advertisers/Hosts (Various)
This is La Brega Campejones. Listen early and ad free with Fubudo.
- [61:27]
Pablo Torre
Plus.
- [61:30]
Jason Flom
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- [61:36]
Pablo Torre
Acast.com.