← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
- [00:07]
B
The Wizinator is a lifelike prosthetic penis designed to simulate male urination.
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A
It is very easy to use and.
- [00:13]
B
Available in white, black and Latino skin tones.
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A
Right after this ad.
- [00:19]
B
You're listening to Giraffe Kings.
- [00:35]
A
So Matt, I've been wanting to do this for a long ass time. I've been planting the seed, as it were, that I want to do an episode with you specifically about the question of whether marijuana can be a performance enhancing drug. Okay. You're a guy. I mean, I assumed you smoked today.
- [00:51]
B
Yeah, today. Yeah, absolutely. I'm pretty high as we speak right now.
- [00:54]
A
Very good. Yes, I am jealous and for people who don't know, and I hope they do know already, your reputation, but how would you describe the sort of player you were in the league?
- [01:05]
B
Probably like 3 and D before the. There was, there was coin, 3 and D. Just a hard nosed defender that had, you know, did a little bit of everything on the dirty work side and defensified and then, you know, knocked down shots when I got the opportunity.
- [01:19]
A
Four seconds remaining.
- [01:20]
B
Barnes for three. Put it in. Matt Barnes for three. And the Grizzlies have the lead.
- [01:26]
A
93, 90. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's another simpler word that I feel like gets thrown around your scouting report, which is you were a. You were an.
- [01:39]
B
Hated to play against me, love to play with me is what I've heard from teammates and executives and coaches.
- [01:49]
A
Okay? So if you want to understand the culture of a sport, if you want to find out, for example, why upwards of 80% of the greatest basketball league in the world may smoke weed, you can't really go to the superstar athletes. This is a theory I have. They are simply too famous. They have too much job security. What you really need to do is go to California and sit down with Matt Barnes. Because the most distinguishing thing about Matt Barnes to me is his candidness about what it's like to play for nine different teams over a 14 year NBA career. And also about what it's like to have been, according to my own research here, arguably the biggest stoner in professional basketball. And all of this was back when smoking weed really meant something. By the way, Matt Barnes is from Sacramento county and he was doing all of this when it was very illegal. Back before legal dispensaries, back before all of these stores that have opened up. This was still years and years away from the NBA deciding finally to stop testing for weed altogether. You were doing this, by the way, like, during. And I think this is a key distinction here when you talk about policy changes. You were doing all of this during David Stern's NBA?
- [03:00]
B
Yeah, it was a different watch back then. Definitely a different watch.
- [03:05]
A
So let's just start from the start. So for you, I want people to really understand where you're coming from. Just like, even before the NBA.
- [03:13]
B
Yeah.
- [03:14]
A
Chronologically speaking, when does the relationship between marijuana and basketball begin for you?
- [03:20]
B
Man? My dad was dabbled in the streets a little bit, so, you know, I saw drugs at an early age. I was born in 1980, so in the 80s, a lot of people did a lot of different drugs. But I always remember my dad, at the end of the day, would smoke a joint, and he also smoked cigarettes. And I hated the smell of cigarettes. But I remember when he smoked it, I didn't know what it was at the time, but he would smoke this joint, and it would smell different, and he would relax, and he'd have a Budweiser, and he'd watch something on tv, and that was kind of like the mellow time we would. We would have. And it just always kind of always stuck with me. So at 14, I stole some weed from him and. And tried it, and the first time got a huge headache. Huge, huge headache. But I wasn't a quitter. I. I jumped back on the horse and kind of found early on, this is 14, 15 years old. Relaxed me. It focused me.
- [04:11]
A
How would you describe that? So I want to. When you say it relaxed you, what. What did you need? Relaxation.
- [04:16]
B
It would just allow me to kind of relax and focus and take things step by step and, you know, not overreact, and it helped me sleep. So it did a lot of things early on that I couldn't put my finger on, but I knew it just made me feel different and made me feel better. You know, now there's medical research to back up what I know. It's been doing for me since I was a teenager nearly 30 years ago.
- [04:39]
A
You know, when you mentioned that your dad, he was in the business of drugs before this was a business that was allowed. So when you think back, just how. How do you describe it for someone who isn't familiar with what that must have been like?
- [04:56]
B
It was different because it wasn't just weave. It was coke. It was a lot of different. It was. It was the 80s, you know what I mean? So it was interesting because me and my brother and sister all steered away from that, you know, I felt. But there were some kids you know, at five years old, my. I'm playing with the neighbor kids because our parents are getting high and my little friends knock a plate of cocaine over and start eating it, and next thing I know, they're foaming out the mouth. So I'm running to my house to tell our parents that I don't know what the. But I'm five years old, six years old, you know, So I just saw a lot at an early age. And I kind of feel like either if you see it, you're going to steer towards it or you're going to steer away from it. And I steered away from it, you know, so my goal was to never kind of be back in that kind of situation or environment. And I knew there was more out there. So that was kind of always my go throughout my childhood and high school days, college days, and through the pros.
- [05:41]
A
So the biggest difference between Matt Barnes, even at an early age, stoned and. And sober is what. How different are those people, would you say?
- [05:50]
B
I mean, they're not very different. I think at an early age, I think obviously you have to handle what, what you can handle. You know what I mean? I went to school with a bunch of. Excuse, excuse me, but I went to go to bunch of white kids. So they're taking six foot gravity bong rips.
- [06:03]
A
We don't use those slurs here, white kids.
- [06:05]
B
There's six foot bong rips. And then there was gravity bombs. We used to take an Alhambra bottle and to cut the bottom of the Alhambra bottle that make a bowl at the top, submerge it, make a bowl. And then. So that's the first time, funny enough, we're talking about a gravity bong. The first time I got high before a game. This is, I think my. It was in my junior, senior year, high school, we're playing in this tournament and I won MVP two years. I think it's my junior year, I went mvp. My freshman, my sophomore year, dominating first game, big game, cut school on the Friday of the second game and gets super high. And it was like Teen Wolf where you're turning and everything's coming a little bit behind you and turning. And it's just like. It was just, it was. I was too high. I played horrible. My friends are up in the stands laughing at me. I want to say I was averaging like 35, 40 points in this tournament. I had like 4 to 6 points in this tournament. Remember I air ball, two layups. It was just, it was bad. So I say all that to Say, like, I had to figure out what worked for me.
- [07:10]
A
Right.
- [07:10]
B
You know, how much. Because, you know, maybe it's more for me and less for someone else or less for me and more for someone else. So I kind of just found what my why was. First of all, why was I doing it? And then what was my tolerance level to be able to still perform and do it at the same time? Because I have to be responsible with it.
- [07:26]
A
Right. So the first time, though, you.
- [07:27]
B
You too far.
- [07:29]
A
When you went. When you went.
- [07:30]
B
Teen Wolf, Deep, deep waters.
- [07:32]
A
What. What was the. What was the. Was there a thought as to like, I'm going to see what this is like, I'm going to try this out.
- [07:38]
B
I just didn't think I was going to get that high and it was going to stay that long. Like, I.
- [07:41]
A
It was an accident.
- [07:41]
B
It happened at 1:30 and the game was at 7 and I was still just loaded the whole day. I just loaded. And it. And. And it just. I could. Cold water pool. Nothing could shake it off me. And it just. It was. It was a lot.
- [08:12]
A
When do you realize the. The Goldilocks of this? Right. Okay. Too hot, too cold. But just right. What. How do you fig. When do you figure out what just right feels like?
- [08:22]
B
I remember the football season early on. I hurt my foot and kind of kept playing. And it was.
- [08:27]
A
Cause you were also like a star receiver.
- [08:28]
B
Yeah, I was a better football player than basketball. So just, you know, before a game kind of finding out, okay, you know, half a blunt, what would that do to me? Okay, I can do that. And then, you know, it eventually got to throughout my career that I would smoke, you know, whether it was the blunt stage or the joint stage. A joint or a blunt, before the game.
- [08:48]
A
And when did you decide it's a blunt or a joint?
- [08:51]
B
Wiz Khalifa actually changed me from blunts because I'm. I was a swisher, sweet guy for like 20, 20 plus years. And those things are just. Those are heavy on your lungs, but you don't know how heavy they are until you try something else. So again, I'm someone who, during my time I prided myself on being really well in shape and never getting tired and always running. So I would. I didn't realize how heavy blunts were on my chest until I switched over to joints. Compliments of my guy whiz. He just try this. Tasted better cleaner. It just didn't feel as heavy on my lungs. So I probably crossed over in 2015 and haven't been back since.
- [09:28]
A
Okay. So I want to Go back to college though, right? So high school. I can imagine you get away with some stuff because it's high school. And I guess they're just not. There's not a testing program that's official in high school. But ucla, I mean, you go to ucla.
- [09:41]
B
Yes. A little different.
- [09:42]
A
How would you figure out this is what I need to do to not get in trouble?
- [09:48]
B
Niacin, I think it was, they said, because you'd hear urban legends of guys on campus. What do you do to get it out of your system? So I stayed on campus for four years and had three tests and somehow got by all of them. I just didn't go to one. That's a pretty good way to not go to one. Fail it. One was niacin and then one I drank so much water, I felt like I was going to be like pass out. And one was diluted and it was fine what I didn't take. And then the niacin flushed me one time. At first, you know, I didn't know who at UCLA smoked, so I used to just be by myself and there's like a wooded area with steps down to the fraternities. So I used to go back there and smoke by myself because I didn't know who else smoked.
- [10:27]
A
It's relatable in the sense that like, you got to go to this like wooded area.
- [10:31]
B
Yeah.
- [10:31]
A
By yourself. Because the stakes are high.
- [10:35]
B
Right. No pun intended.
- [10:36]
A
Yo, but for real though, I want to, I want people to understand because this is around what time? What year?
- [10:41]
B
1998, 99, 2000.
- [10:44]
A
Right. So this was like headlines in newspaper stories.
- [10:48]
B
Real trouble. Like, you know, probably get kicked out of college possibly.
- [10:52]
A
How obvious was it though that you were smoking and playing and evading the tests at the time you were doing it?
- [11:01]
B
I mean, I was just good. I mean, I was. Oh, I've always been really self conscious of, okay, if I'm gonna. This, I can't because I'm, I'm public. I'm, I'm. I'm a. I'm a functioning smoker, I guess you would call it. Like, before I'd go on ESPN before I play. Like, I'm always smoking, but I always have my little kit where I have my toothbrush, my mouthwash, some cologne. It changes clothes, some lotion. So because I can't walk around smelling like it all the time, I just understand this is veteran savvy. Right? Come on, man.
- [11:25]
A
Yes. No, I think functional is a key. It's a key adjective to all of this.
- [11:29]
B
Gotta be, man. It's gotta be some balance.
- [11:31]
A
Right? Right, Right, Right. So. Okay. But the idea that, okay, I have a kit. I have a process.
- [11:35]
B
Yeah.
- [11:36]
A
When did that specific ritual really set in where you're like, I know how to do this?
- [11:41]
B
College. It was because obviously I knew I had to hide. But, you know, once I didn't really. Not that I didn't care. I don't want to say that just once I was kind of more recognizable and in situations and around people that would. Because I've been around athletes, unfortunately, that. That smell like a whole pound. And I'm just thinking, like, that's. It's cool. I know you smoke, but it's kind of irresponsible from a standpoint of we're not there yet. You know, I mean, we're not there yet. So you're kind of giving up the secrets for everybody almost, Right?
- [12:09]
A
No, so. So. But this part is really important, the nuance of what you're describing, which is, if we're going to do this at this time, like the early 2000s, responsible. We need to be careful and responsible because we're all at risk here. Are you doing the thing where it's like, paper towel roll equivalent and, like, some fabric softener in it or, like.
- [12:26]
B
I mean, it just depends. I mean, I was always a big candle dude, so, I mean, I always had candles. I'd always block the doorways as much as I can. Sometimes I used to run the hot water early on, but then it would get. I don't know, it would just cause more steam and you would think so scientifically, smoke. It's maybe an urban legend that it actually worked, but again, I just tried to control it with. And then anyone who came to my.
- [12:47]
A
Room just made sure they were.
- [12:49]
B
They were. I would tip them all and. Yeah, just, you know, make sure. Just. Just be very respectable when you. I guess.
- [12:54]
A
And. Right. So the consideration for other people, you don't want to get in their way. You don't want to make their lives harder.
- [12:59]
B
Right.
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A
And in the process, where you're also doing is like living in the future.
- [13:04]
B
Right.
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A
So the idea that you get to the NBA and there's now going to be this testing program and the reputation of the program in. Again, this is David Stern's NBA. So this program's reputation. Did it even begin to scare you out of. Out of trying this?
- [13:21]
B
I came in the league early 2000s, and it was. Everyone got drug tested during training camp one time. So it'd be a fact where everyone knows, okay, yo, training camp starts Monday, Thursday the dude's coming, and everyone's getting tested. So we would have our blunts. Are our joints rolled up in the car as soon as we get out of practice, like, cheersing each other in the parking lot still, you mean. Because we knew it was coming, but I kind of.
- [13:41]
A
Well, no, but. But that scene, though, the idea that, like, it's kind of like, you know, it's almost like that's graduation.
- [13:47]
B
Yeah. Like, whose house are we going to after practice? We're gonna go smoke a couple and, you know, so.
- [13:51]
A
So it starts off with, you know, that's gonna be one test in training.
- [13:55]
B
Camp preseason to four randoms.
- [13:57]
A
So I want to just generally situate, again, like, the kids out there, right. For, like, what's happening in the league at this point. Because this is now David Stern. This is like, the dress code had been implemented. And so the question of, like, why Matt?
- [14:10]
B
Yeah.
- [14:10]
A
Why does it go from one predictable preseason test to four randoms?
- [14:15]
B
There was issues with performance enhancing drugs in other sports, whether it be football, baseball. I don't remember the exact years, but it was in the same.
- [14:23]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:24]
B
Late 99, early 2000s, mid 2000. Yeah. So they know there wasn't really a steroid issue in the league, but a league that's predominantly black. What is the stereotype drug that most black from back in the day, from rappers to street dudes, use Weed.
- [14:38]
A
Right.
- [14:39]
B
There wasn't a steroid problem. We weren't getting football and baseball tested for steroids. What can we test them for? Weed.
- [14:45]
A
Right. Parallel to the dress code in its.
- [14:47]
B
Own way, kind of, you know, how.
- [14:49]
A
Do we clean up under.
- [14:50]
B
Under. Looking at our demographic, you know, predominantly, you know, 70%, if I'm not mistaken.
- [14:55]
A
You know, somewhere in that super majority. Yep.
- [14:57]
B
And it was funny, too, to say all that, Pablo, because I remember I did fail a few times. You get three strikes. I was on, like, 2.75. You know, a couple fails, you get a couple. You get a couple of. If you know it's coming and you're not prepared, you can turn yourself in. So I turned myself in. Luckily, they let me turn myself in twice. That's why I said you're only supposed to be able to turn one you get out of jail free card. Like, hey, you're coming to test me today? I don't have my drink, Cliff. Dirk, I'm coming home, baby. I'm coming back to the drug program. You know, I mean, so I'm coming back to the drug program.
- [15:32]
A
So, Cliff and Dirk, in case you were wondering, just Then Cliff and Dirk are the names of the people who run the NBA's drug program, which I needed to clarify with Matt by text afterwards. And Cliff and Dirk and the NBA first started testing for weed back in 1999 during training camp specifically. And as Matt alluded to, as a result, everybody knew when the test was coming. This may explain why only 12 active players out of 430 that first year tested positive. A super low number that the league publicly celebrated as proof that this whole slate of off court marijuana possession incidents in the 90s were absolutely not reflective of the reality of the NBA. But in the 2000s, the NBA instituted what Matt has referred to as those four random drug tests, which meant that if you ever got a third positive test, that third strike, you got suspended for five games. Then the league would start adding five more games to each ensuing violation after that. And so Matt Barnes failed one test in 2007 with the warriors and a second test in 2014 with the Clippers. And so instead of testing positive a third time, he just chose to re enroll with Cliff and Dirk preemptively.
- [16:43]
B
But I found out, you know, towards the end of my career when I'm in there, the, from the superstars to rookies are in that program. And I remember at one point they told me more than half the league was in the program for cannabis. Half the league, 250 plus guys are in the junior. I don't know who. I know some of the people because, you know, we're, we were teammates at times or whatever, but a lot of people for that period.
- [17:10]
A
Right. Which is, I think a staggering thing to realize on a couple of levels. So it's staggering on the level of like, okay, so what you're saying is that more than half the league has been involved in the program, meaning they have gotten popped or been summoned to the league office on a watch list of some kind. But what that also says is that beyond, okay, it's catching people, it's the prevalence of this. Was that surprising to you when you heard that it was more than half the league?
- [17:40]
B
Yes, because it was just that many people in the, you know, in a league of 400, a little bit over 400 people.
- [17:47]
A
It's like a silent majority.
- [17:48]
B
Right.
- [17:49]
A
Literally. So the NBA has its own version, has its own version of a war on drugs and it's done. I think I'm with you on the level of this originates from a PR perspective and manicuring of an image to make it more friendly and comfortable for it's family. Family friendly, mainstream America is the theory, right?
- [18:08]
B
Yeah.
- [18:10]
A
But when it comes to those tests, that is the test that is getting more than half the league involved in this program. Who are the people doing the testing?
- [18:21]
B
Oh, it's. It's. It's. It's a company they hire. I can't even say. We used to call these people.
- [18:28]
A
Why? Why can't you say it?
- [18:29]
B
Just because it's. We're in a different climate now. This is. You gotta think. You used to. You know, we call them Better Work Watchers, you know, because they would really. It came to a point because there was a point where there was, you know, I'm not giving anything that people don't know all their way because the policy is completely.
- [18:44]
A
Exactly. No, we can talk about it.
- [18:45]
B
People used to have the fake. The prosthetic penises, the Wizardinator with the. With. With the. With the. You know, someone else is peeing it. And that was what got you. That was urban legend. I heard about that in high school, in first getting in college and this. And you don't got the fake. Like, nah, bro, I don't got the fake. Sorry. The Wizzinator is a lifelike prosthetic penis designed to simulate male urination.
- [19:05]
A
It is very easy to use and available in white, black, and Latino skin tones.
- [19:09]
B
And then it would be a situation where sometimes you would just turn a cup of pee in so you can have someone else pee for you. So, I mean, obviously it started to evolve and they took it more serious. So. So it got to the point where you had to drop your pants down to your ankles and someone would like, if this is me peeing right here, there's a watcher like, this is Matt.
- [19:25]
A
Barnes taking the podcast microphone and staring at it at arm's length.
- [19:29]
B
Yeah, it's not yet barely at arm's length. Like, they're that close to you and they watch the pee come out of your body. You know what I mean?
- [19:35]
A
Which is to say that the Wizzinator became. And the chain of custody of urine became such a threat that they were like, we gotta see it come out of the realm.
- [19:42]
B
It's gotta come as a source. Pablo, I kid you not. There's been twice in my career where I had to. And give the pee. And this person had to come in the stall with me because they wanted to make sure that I wasn't. So I had to put the cup down in here while I'm. And I would have to pee in a cup.
- [19:57]
A
Like, if I'm lying, I was just nature calling.
- [19:59]
B
If I'm Lying. I'm flying. I'm just like, I'm not going to be able to pee without something else coming out. So I'm going to have to go. And it happened twice in my career.
- [20:05]
A
And they were there.
- [20:06]
B
They were there, man. So it was serious.
- [20:07]
A
I didn't realize that I would find out that Matt Barnes and peed in front of a drug testing NBA employee twice.
- [20:14]
B
Yeah, I don't even think it's. Yeah, they work for the NBA but they're outside company.
- [20:17]
A
So. Okay, so as in they show up.
- [20:20]
B
How the morning of. They have to. So the morning. So it used to go. So once we were in the four randoms, they would. We would get a call the morning of from our trainer. It used to say who was on the list? Four to five guys. And I think they got hip to that. So they just started saying, okay, just four or five guys. But we're not giving you any names till we get there. So there could have or may have may not been trainers that got paid to say who was on the list so we can prepare. I can't confirm or deny that may have happened. May have not allegedly is the word. So it got to the point now where it's just all right, most teams are in group chats. All right, drug test guy to hear today. So I would just always, every time that happened, which is probably, man, 10 times a year, eight times a year, I would have to treat it like I was getting tested. So I always had a drink on me. So I'd have to get up early. I would take this nap, a nasty drink. Then I drink three big bottles of water.
- [21:11]
A
You're like entering ghost protocol.
- [21:12]
B
It's tough because especially you gotta think if it's a game day or a practice because you're so bloated from having to take this shake and then drink all this water and then you have to pee three times and then you have like a six hour window where you can pee clean.
- [21:22]
A
Right.
- [21:22]
B
And I did that for almost 15 years.
- [21:25]
A
But you were ready. It was like people have like a.
- [21:27]
B
To go back on call. So I'm eating clean. I mean eating a lot cleaner. So you know, you stay lean. So you, you get out of your. Because they say it on average is a month.
- [21:35]
A
And well the THC gets stored in.
- [21:37]
B
Yeah, but they say on average it, you know, it staging your sister for a month, you know, aging hair a little longer. But this again, this is pre being accepted. So it's just like I'm eating clean after the games. I'm I'm in the steam room or after the games. I'm even doing another workout just to sweat more. So I just. It was a real job to do it.
- [21:52]
A
I imagine at a certain point these guys who are like contracted with the NBA who are watching you in a stall with you watching your dick in the most real way.
- [22:02]
B
That sounds violating. Even talking about it.
- [22:04]
A
It sounds insane. I wonder if there's even some sort of like, camaraderie. We're just like, oh, we knew the.
- [22:10]
B
Dudes by name and everything. Like, it was cool. We would be cool with them. You know, we'd be cool with these dudes. We knew them by name. It kind of just was what it was. I mean, they knew they were watching and we knew they had to watch our. So it was kind of just damned if you do, damned if you don't. We need this piece somehow.
- [22:25]
A
Oh, my God. Just a series of incredible sentences when it comes to the estimates of like, how many guys are enjoying cannabis in the league at the time that they were playing. So I've seen a couple of estimates. So obviously the most, I think direct one is your estimation that more than half the league per these testers were in the program. But then of course, Al Harrington is saying probably around 70% of the NBA when he played. Kenyon Martin was saying, Kenny Martin played from 2000 2015, overlapping with you in large part two. Yeah, 85% of the NBA.
- [23:10]
B
I'm just saying only half the league was caught. That's not saying. Like, so a lot of people got. Because I got. You got to think I got caught two times and I played for 15 years. You know what I mean? So there was a lot of times I wasn't getting caught.
- [23:20]
A
Right. And so the question I have, which is based off of just that degree, that degree of pervasiveness in the league, when you think about why they were doing it, what's your theory?
- [23:32]
B
I don't know why. I can never speak to why they were doing it. I can only speak to why I was doing it. And it was something that it would just became a part of me. And to this day, and I feel like in life, whether you're a big time athlete or CEO or just a housewife that takes care of kids all day, like everyone has a vice, whether it be a glass of wine, whether it be harder alcohol, whether it be harder drugs, whatever it may be. And I kind of just felt like cannabis is not really that bad. And now that there's medical research backing it, backing it up, you know, it was just kind of my call it my vice and that's why I did it again. It was as an athlete, I wasn't someone who popped pills a bunch. While pills are. I can only. I've talked to football guys or you know, pills are like in big jars of. You know, it's almost like little candy for them. But as you know, for athletes there was a problem. For basketball, it was, you know, we can get our hands on anything we want. I mean, I even got shot with Toradol to play, you know, which is.
- [24:27]
A
Again a football style remedy.
- [24:28]
B
Yeah. So it's just like it was always that or you know, cut that in half and, and smoke weed with it.
- [24:35]
A
So the idea of like pain management, I think I, I wonder if people appreciate how much of a. Just a, A constant state of pain some players are in. Because football is like. Well, that's football. Yeah, but the NBA, you're saying that hardwood.
- [24:50]
B
I mean, banging, falling on the ground, ankles, fingers. I mean obviously football's contact every single. But you know, and then it's played on grass and it's a very phys. Physical sport. Hockey, very ph. Basketball is that hard when we're on the ground a lot and people don't realize how hard like the ground is undefeated. You know what I mean? So it's just wear and tear. It's a long season, 82 games. So, you know, I was lucky to not really have any significant injuries, but it's just the wear and tear of just basketball alone is, Is a lot on your body.
- [25:18]
A
Right. And so coming into this, I was like, okay, if we're talking about 85% of the NBA, potentially 85% of the highest level basketball league that's ever existed, enjoying cannabis. I want to get to the question of how many of those guys, or at the very least how realistic it is that some people were taking whatever form of marijuana that they were in order to actually play better, in order to be better at the game that they would be otherwise.
- [25:47]
B
I wouldn't say that cannabis directly makes you better from a enhancement standpoint of an HGH or a steroid or something like that. I would say it enhances your play because you get a great night's sleep, it helps with inflammation. I smoked before I played, so I'm watching game film on Kobe and I'm high. So I'm tuned into his moves. I know his rhythm. I know when he takes two dribbles, right. He's gonna stop and shot, fake and get me up in the air. He's Gonna. So I'm locked in.
- [26:17]
A
You're stoned watching Kobe Bryant, the task.
- [26:19]
B
Whoever it was, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James, Kevin Durant. That was my job. I had to guard the best players in the world every night. The best guy on every team, I had to guard every night.
- [26:27]
A
This is why you're the perfect person to talk about with this stuff. Because your job was not merely to, like, get onto the floor and passively be a normal person while stone. It was to stop the greatest scores in the history of the league. But there are lots of people out there who are listening to this conversation and they're like, when I smoke weed, I need to sit in a couch and not move. And you're doing potentially the most opposite version of that, of that entire spectrum of possibilities. I'm trying to stop Kobe Bryant from scoring 40. You're trying to stay awake watching the rest of Oppenheimer.
- [27:01]
B
Right, right, right. It's. It worked for me. It worked for me. You know what I mean? But there's times a time where I would be getting. I'm not gonna lie again, it did a lot of things for me. Mentally focused sleep, you know, anti inflammatory. But there's time. Pablo. After just a crazy day of game stress or family or issues or I'm in TMZ and on sports and I'm fighting with my former teammate and I'm getting a divorce in front of the world, but I still got to play.
- [27:27]
A
Like, sometimes you're getting name checked by Kanye Matt Barnes.
- [27:35]
B
So I mean, sometimes I do just sit back on the couch, man, and just smoking and get high and just kind of just allow things to.
- [27:42]
A
As your God given right as a human being. Absolutely.
- [27:46]
B
God is good.
- [27:48]
A
But the question of the science of this, right, of like, what does marijuana help help an athlete do potentially? So I've been reading into the science on this. We've talked to a couple of scientists.
- [27:59]
C
My name is Angela Bryan and I'm a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of Colorado Boulder.
- [28:06]
A
And their argument is, one of them is this is not a performance enhancing drug. And what Professor Brian did, in retrospect, made a lot of sense. She set up this experiment to test the effect of cannabis on acid athletes by asking a runner to run the same route twice, once under the influence of cannabis and another time sober.
- [28:30]
B
Under.
- [28:30]
C
The influence of cannabis, people, they went pretty, pretty significantly slower in the cannabis run. The data we have collected suggest that, you know, the organizations that ban cannabis on the basis of it being a performance enhancing drug are flat out Wrong.
- [28:50]
A
But what you're saying is that you found benefits personally when it came to how you proceeded on the court. And so one of the things that I'm curious about is when it came to playing in the game, specifically, how do you think it made you better?
- [29:05]
B
I just think it was focus helped me with my focus. But I'll even take it back. Say we're in LA tonight, I'm playing for Golden State, we're in LA tonight, we play Kobe and the Lakers and then we have a back to back on a TNT game, which means everything's a little bit later and we got to fly to San Antonio Raptors game to play Tim Duncan. So we're getting to San Antonio. TNT games gonna go an hour longer. Everyone's got to do media after. It's going to take an hour and a half, two hours to get on the plane and actually in the air to San Antonio. We're not going to San Antonio until anywhere between 2 and 4am so some people, it's hard to get off a plane, wake up, get on the bus and get to your room and go right back to sleep. What are you gonna do? Are you gonna drink? You gonna take a sleeping pill that's gonna have you groggy now for eight to 10 hours? You know, it might mess up your pre game nap. Or me, I'm gonna go ahead and smoke me one to the face and make sure I go to sleep, you know, within the first 30 minutes, 40 minutes while I'm there and get a great sleep and get ready to guard Manu or Tony or whoever else I had to, you know, guard that.
- [30:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:08]
B
I was just glad that it finally has reached a point where there's medical research backing this up. And now, you know, most of major sports, if I'm not mistaken, test for once or don't test at all for it.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah, no, I mean this is, this is where we are living in the future. The future being the present tense now. So like for instance, I just want to contrast this, right? So Al Harrington once said that he would never get high before playing like Kevin Durant, but Al did.
- [30:29]
B
Al was my dog. So Al didn't even start smoking until like late. Al wasn't really smoking during the days like where we were. And that's our, that's the only reason I'm talking. That's our guy.
- [30:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- [30:41]
B
But it was. Some guys didn't like Steven Jackson, someone, I can say that, you know, he was smoking while he was playing. He didn't Smoke before games either he, after games he would blow down with you, but before games he wouldn't.
- [30:51]
A
So this club that you were of course a charter member of, like I'm smoking before a game. Explain, I guess explain what that ritual was.
- [30:59]
B
So it would be, first of all, explain. The post game ritual is normally everybody or whoever, whoever's a smoker on the team after the game we're burning it down. Sometimes watching game film, sometimes, you know, order some food to the house, kick it, get ready to go out or whatever the situation may be. Day of is depends if you're on the road and there's a couple guys that smoke. I've had guys come to my room and after shoot around, you know, we'll go to shoot around, you know, shoot around 11 or 12 o' clock for an hour. We come home, I'll come home and you know, one of the teammates will come over to my room and we'll smoke one and then I'll take a nap, I'll wake up, take a shower, eat and go to the game. So within probably a, if I'm smoking about one or two in the game to seven. Yeah, within a five hour window. So it's not like I'm smoking on the way to the game, but it was something that I would smoke. And it helps me take my. Because I like to take like two hour pre game naps, two sometimes three hour pre game naps, help me take that nap, wake up, feel refreshed, get in the shower, eat, and it's time to go.
- [31:52]
A
Right. And how set was that process?
- [31:54]
B
That was 95 of the time.
- [31:56]
A
Wow. Wow. And so the question of focus, I want to get to that because it's interesting. Right. So as much as science is saying you're not going to get the benefits from, from weed as you would anabolic steroids, obviously. It's interesting that like a sport like archery and this is where you got to go a little bit off the board to see the parallels. In Olympic archery, alcohol is a banned substance because the theory is that alcohol for some people calms their nerves. If you ever played darts, you've ever played beer pong.
- [32:27]
B
Yeah.
- [32:27]
A
All of us have been in, all of us have felt like Kobe.
- [32:30]
B
Oh at one time. Yeah, I'm nice to be upon, by the way.
- [32:33]
A
I have no doubt about that.
- [32:35]
B
Even if I have to keep my elbow.
- [32:36]
A
I was gonna say the elbow rule is a big. I would be enforcing the out of that.
- [32:40]
B
Yeah, I'm ready for it next. Next time we hang together.
- [32:43]
A
That's Right.
- [32:44]
B
That's right.
- [32:45]
A
Who else was on your sort of approach? Who else is like, how many other guys were like that?
- [32:53]
B
There was a lot, to be honest with you. I mean, there was a lot. I mean, again, close team. I would only speak on people who are close. You know, the Stephen Jacksons. Who else can I speak of?
- [33:04]
A
Yeah, who's okay with this now being.
- [33:06]
B
It just depends because people are at different places in their life. Like some of my OG, like some of my OGs, like someone who kind of raised me, who was my big brother, was instrumental in kind of making it like, this is a responsibility. You still have to do this and this and this. And he was someone who was kind of, again, big brother in me when I first came to the league and I was bouncing around and not really set on any team, but still doing it because I knew it was something I was with. So, yeah, I'll leave it at the names of Stephen Jackson. I play with some of the greatest players ever to play this game. Have, you know, been involved with this plan and winning championships.
- [33:41]
A
By the way, was there a sense as to, like, when you were in the league, were guys smoking? Were they eating edibles? Were edibles really a thing at that point?
- [33:48]
B
Edibles were just coming along. You got to think my last year was 16, 17. So edibles had touched down. But I felt like you had to be really well versed in that space, and I wasn't. I had a couple homeboys that were. They had the edibles down to microdase them before it was because it just first came as edibles. And they're what? Microdosing came later. Yeah, but I had homeboys that were test dummies that would crash and teen wolf. Yeah. And figure out what. What's right. And then, you know, and these are other athletes. These are other teammates, you know what I mean? One particular teammate was a test dummy. Was my dog, one of my own.
- [34:20]
A
How does one end up the test dummy on an NBA team?
- [34:23]
B
Just, he, He. He's the one that wants to jump in there, you know, I mean, I like. Like I said, edibles were new. Like, we all kind of knew our. We all had our older stories of how we found out how, you know, the actual joint or blunt work.
- [34:33]
A
Yes.
- [34:34]
B
Edibles are different.
- [34:35]
A
There's only one way to find out what this specific edible contains.
- [34:38]
B
You got to jump in there butt naked and see what happens.
- [34:54]
A
But I want to get to the question of, like, okay, some people, they have a little bit of weed and they have a laughing attack. And God bless those people. Love it. But at the same time, for you, your reaction time wasn't slower. That's the crazy part is like, that's for so many people, unrelatable.
- [35:11]
B
Yeah. Well. And. And then all this stuff, the psychedelics, the cannabis, the. The alcohol, it's. It's to. Everyone is different. So how it affects you is different. I knew I was never a huge drinker, but I know that I can. No matter what, I can probably take five, six, seven shots and be okay because I'm six, eight, two, 40, you know what I mean? My body's different, and I completely know my body. You know, I mean, I know that I can smoke a joint or two and be completely fine. You know what I mean? So it's. Everyone is different. You know, someone with the same makeup may not have that type of. But again, all that is a tolerance. So this stuff hits everyone different. So I would never, you know, this is what I did because it worked for me. I don't know what works for you.
- [35:49]
A
Right? You're not prescribing.
- [35:51]
B
No, I'm not a doctor. But if you want to have fun, come, come kick it.
- [35:55]
A
When it comes to the strain Sativa Indica did. What's part of your.
- [36:00]
B
I was always an indica guy because sativa was fairly new. Like, it kind of caught on when I kind of started hearing about. It was like maybe 13, 14, 15, but girls were kind of smoking it when it was first coming out. So I. I tried and it was cool. It's a different taste. It's obviously a different type of high, but I've always been kind of a indica guy, which is, you know, the OGs, the purple, the kush, that kind of stuff is what I grew up smoking. Obviously, it's gotten stronger and better over.
- [36:27]
A
The years, but that's the relaxant, as opposed to the upper of a satiric.
- [36:32]
B
But on the flip side, it's just. It's. It's. It. It's whatever works for you. And everything now is kind of. It's a hybrid because they're crossing everything now, so everything is a little bit of everything now, so it's really your preference. But yeah, I was more of an indigo guy because that's what I grew up on.
- [36:48]
A
What. What about your coaches in the league? How much of a understanding was there?
- [36:53]
B
The only coach I really think had an understanding and. And cared to have an understanding was Nelly. Nelly was super cool. Nelly.
- [37:00]
A
Don Nelson.
- [37:01]
B
Yeah, Don Nelson from the. The We Believe Warrior team right after we beat the. The Dallas Mavericks. Jack used to live in the same building as Nelly, and Jack was in the middle floors and Nelly had the whole penthouse. So we went to Jax, me, him, Baron, a couple other people pre game because we're gonna hit the city before we go out. And Nellie wanted us to come up. So Nellie again has the whole top floor, penthouse, balcony, everything we can do.
- [37:21]
A
What a ridiculous apartment complex.
- [37:23]
B
So dope. So dope. Go up there. And right when we walk in the door, Nellie's like, hey, fellas, Woody's in the back rolling doobies. And we're like, what the. We kind of like what he's just front of. There's some. Some Hollywood stars there, probably executives from the team. We're like, holy, what did this man just say? Yeah, Woody's in the back. And we go in the back and Woody Harrelson's rolling up joint chat. Go in the back of our coaches on our coaches balcony during the playoffs. We're still in season and smoke weed with Woody Harrelson.
- [37:52]
A
So Nelly, you discovering that Woody Harrelson was hanging out inside of Nelly's apartment? How much of a surprise was it that Nelly was that kind of a smoker or did you know that by that point?
- [38:01]
B
I didn't know that Nelly was really smoking. Nelly was just so cool and laid back. Like he would come to the practice at 10 or 11 o' clock with either a beer or a coffee cup. Sometimes it's coffee, sometimes his crown, and then his dog that would piss everywhere. You know, I mean, so Nelly was just so with the flow that he just didn't give a. I think he knew that, you know, let these guys do what they need to do because, you know, as long as they show up, we're good. You know what I mean? As long as they're staying out of trouble, we're good.
- [38:25]
A
It feels like historically the turning point in terms of just like at least my understanding of how the NBA felt about this. It was an interview, actually, that the aforementioned Al Harrington did with David Stern. And again, we've been talking about David Stern's NBA this whole time. David Stern and Adam Silver. Adam Silver was David Stern's deputy, but David Stern was mafia boss. Yes, yes, yes. The iron fist. And maybe Adam has a velvet glove around that iron fist, but David Jackson's glove. But David Stern was a terrifying person to everybody. And so when Al Harrington has David Stern basically on this couch with him, talking about what the next phase of the NBA's weed policy should be, David Stern says something that I truly, like when I first heard in 2017, needed to rewind.
- [39:14]
D
Marijuana is now in the process of being legalized. I would think you should be allowed to do what's legal in your state. So now I think it's up to the sports leagues to anticipate where this is going and maybe lead the way. It's about deciding to take it off the banned substances list because it's no different than other subjects that may work or not work with a particular players. I'm now at the point where, personally, I think it probably should be removed from the band list.
- [39:43]
A
He basically says, I don't think it should be criminalized anymore. The. The. The watchers can all stop watching.
- [39:50]
B
A new job, fellas. It was big. And again, 17 was the season I retired. So, I mean, obviously shout out to my brother, Al Harrington. I definitely think opening that door was Al and. And, you know, rest in peace, Commissioner Stern. And, you know, saying at this point where we are is a, you know, as. As. As a. As a world, as a culture, as a sport, I don't think it should be banned. And I think that was the beginning of people starting to talk about it. It all came to a head during the pandemic. Well, if I'm not mistaken, they didn't test in the bubble, and after that.
- [40:19]
A
They just kept on saying, we're not going to do it. Seems like when you listen to David Stern's words, what he's saying also is basically like, look, it's not just the culture that's changing, not just the science that's now becoming clear. Like, the economy around this is becoming clearer. And that part, the part about like, oh, by the way, now the owners can get in on this. That always felt like the actual quiet subtext of all of this, which is, we can make money on this now, too.
- [40:49]
B
We can make money on it.
- [40:50]
A
Yeah.
- [40:50]
B
I mean, I don't know how many got involved as behind as management or owners, but I know a lot of players. You know, you mentioned one being kd. And I remember KD and I used to have talks, and I said, it's going to be more socially acceptable if a superstar, whatever, take that stance.
- [41:04]
D
So did you smoke today?
- [41:06]
B
Yeah. And you're just fine. I'm actually high right now. I think he's kind of been that star that has kind of not come out and just. I'm a smoker. But he's invested in it.
- [41:18]
A
Yeah, he's a weed map Steel.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah, he's got to deal with weed maps. And, you know, him And Rich Kleiman have been very strategic on the way they do it. But, you know, it's like I said, some of the greatest to ever do it, some of the greatest in the game to rookies have all, you know, kind of fall into it. And before, you know, you think about you being a rookie and getting, you know, a test and the team finds out, you know, you're really risking your job at that point. So I just think it's come a really long way. And as someone who risked a lot during my career to do it, you know, I'm just very happy that these guys don't have to worry about it.
- [41:48]
A
So the CBA, the Nucleective Bargaining Agreement. In April 2023, it was officially decided that after the pandemic and the bubble into just like, kicking the can down the road of like, okay, we're not going to test in 2021 or 2022, 2023, finally it's codified. Like, the era is over.
- [42:03]
B
It's out of here.
- [42:04]
A
It's dead. And it also, relatedly, inside of that document, which is like almost 700 pages, is interesting. There is now text that allows guys to, as you alluded to, have stakes in various companies. And it just seemed like at that point, it didn't even feel like a thing. As much as you guys were behind the scenes, like, trying to create momentum towards a change by 2023 in April and the CBA being codified that way, it didn't even feel like a fight. That's the crazy part. Like, it just.
- [42:36]
B
It wasn't. It wasn't. You would think it would have been a knockdown, drag out. You know, guys are standing for it. People, they just.
- [42:42]
A
The traditional ownership versus labor versus management. It seemed like, oh, everybody realized there's. This is fighting a tide that's turned.
- [42:51]
B
A long time ago, wasting our time. We're actually late to the party.
- [42:54]
A
Yes. And that's the funny part about doing an episode like this. Now, of course, it's like, you know, in celebration of the holiday coming up, of course, 4:20. It feels appropriate, but it also feels like, I mean, truly, like America's attitudes towards cannabis have changed so dramatically that it just feels. I live in New York. I said this to you before when you visited the city. I'm like, I walk around and there is nothing stopping anybody from.
- [43:20]
B
It's not a big deal.
- [43:21]
A
The science of it now, right? So there are all these scientists who are saying, we don't think it's ped, but we also want to acknowledge that there just isn't research enough. Yeah, enough research into this.
- [43:32]
C
We want to do more controlled studies where we compare forms like edibles versus, you know, vaping versus smoking, so that we can really answer some of those questions about the impact they have on lung function, on breathing, and on how.
- [43:48]
A
The exercise feels as crazy as the attitudes changing so dramatically towards, like, also, like, family friendly now. Weed is more family friendly than it's ever been in ways that are unthinkable to people who lived through the 90s, obviously, in your case. But it's also still a scheduled federal Schedule one drug.
- [44:08]
B
Yeah, it's crazy.
- [44:09]
A
It'd be nice if this drug was actually, like, federally decriminalized, you would think. So that science can officially dive in all the way on what does this do to a person. From the athletic sports context, that would be nice.
- [44:23]
B
And just a little deeper of, you know, people with minor cannabis offenses are not sitting years in prison.
- [44:28]
A
No question.
- [44:29]
B
You know what I mean? So it's just like we're out here making money on it now, and people who, you know, did it as it means their survival to get by or rotten away in jail, you know, or been killed over it. So it's just a deep journey that we've been on. But I feel from a professional sports standpoint, I feel.
- [44:46]
A
Think.
- [44:46]
B
But yeah, I feel like everyone has it right. You know, it's not that we have to promote that guys are doing it, but we're not. We're not testing for it anymore.
- [45:05]
A
What's the next phase of this, do you think? I mean, you mentioned mushrooms before. You mentioned psychedelics before.
- [45:10]
B
I kind of feel like the. Honestly, the cannabis wave is kind of settled, oddly enough. I mean, it was such. It was. It was. It was the green rush for a handful of years. If you got in, you know, early teens of the 2000, you know, 12, 13, 14, and it was, you know, hit all time high, and then it's definitely settled. I would say in the last three or four years, it's not that big of a deal anymore. I definitely think psychedelics are really buzzing right now and guys are taking their cannabis money and investing in psychedelics. The world is just really open to some of these now that there's a little bit of research behind it and people realizing the benefits from it to.
- [45:47]
A
Bring it all the way back around the question of whether weed is a ped. So it's a more complicated answer than the one that's a little deeper that I was assuming you might give, which is to say that you did it in a way that made your MBA career better. But what I'm finding out is that it was helpful. It was performance enhancing, in a sense, that's not the same as I was stronger or I had this mental state. Even that was more advantageous. It was the way that you found peace in your life that allowed you to be the best version of the. That many, many teams wanted you to be.
- [46:24]
B
Absolutely. No, it was. It was. It was. It was my vice, so to speak.
- [46:30]
A
What I'm realizing also is that when it comes to weed as a ped, it's far more. Obviously, I think it feels more like a podcasting ped, like a writer's ped. Like, what it is for me is like, I have writer's block and I'm by myself. I need to hear from someone else with another opinion on this. That someone else is me, but slightly higher than I am now.
- [46:51]
B
I mean, to me, it's a creative. I feel like I'm a better form of me on it. And again, I played on it. I went on TV on it, whether it was ESPN or Fox or Sacramento Kings. And obviously, all the smoke, it speaks for itself. You know what I mean? So it's just like, you know, to show, I think, for athletes to show on several levels that it's not something that it used to be. It's supposed to. It's gonna. Gateway drug, and you're a thug, and you're. This. If you smoke and you're gonna do this and you're gonna waste your life, and it's just. It's more serious than that now. You know, it's a medication now, and it's something that's important to this world.
- [47:27]
A
When you think back at the end here at the fondest memory you have of the time in which none of this was allowed and none of this was okay, what makes you smile when you think back at, like, the. The before times, the good times I.
- [47:42]
B
Had on the warriors, the Clippers, the Lakers. Smoking at your coach's house. I mean, people could say you're smoking at your current coach's house. I mean, there was just. I smile when I think about, you know, obviously what that plant has done for me and the fun times. You know, the fun times we had had doing it. So it was. It was a. It was a big part of my life. It's. It's continuing to be a part of my life, and obviously now in moderation, that I'm a father of six and have one on the way, and I'm building a production company. So it's not as much as I used to, but it still, still definitely happens. And it's still, you know, for those similar reasons that I gave back when I was 15 years old.
- [48:23]
A
Right. Is there anything you want to say to the guy who had to watch you take a at the same time?
- [48:29]
B
Who are you, bro? What's your name? Were you able to look at yourself in the mirror and tell your wife that I had to stand in a stall with a former player as he so I can get a little bit of pee out of him.
- [48:41]
A
Yeah.
- [48:41]
B
Weird. Yeah.
- [48:43]
A
On that note, Matt Barnes, thank you for coming through, man. Absolutely.
- [48:46]
B
No doubt.
- [48:55]
A
This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time.