How Muhammad Ali’s Grammy-Nominated Comedy Album Changed Everything

Summary

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Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode Summary: "How Muhammad Ali’s Grammy-Nominated Comedy Album Changed Everything"

Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: Justin Tinsley, Cortez (and archival audio from Stephen A. Smith, etc.)
Date: February 1, 2024

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Overview

This episode is a rich, funny, and revealing deep-dive into the largely forgotten story of how Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) released a Grammy-nominated comedy album in 1963. Torre, Tinsley, and guests explore how “I Am the Greatest” didn’t just foreshadow Ali’s athletic dominance but helped invent modern trash talk, shaped pop culture, and presaged the emergence of hip hop and sports celebrity as we know them. The episode tracks Ali’s journey from brash young challenger, through his public transformation into Muhammad Ali, to unexpected stardom—including a second Grammy nod, this time for a children’s album about tooth decay.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Roots and Revolution of Trash Talk

• Golden Age of Talking: The episode begins with the idea that "this is the golden age of talking"—from reality TV to sports, trash talk is everywhere. Pablo and the crew riff on everything from the Real Housewives to Luka Doncic’s run-ins with hecklers.
• Stephen A. Smith’s Epic Takedown: A highlight is the comparison of modern sports talking heads—specifically, Stephen A. Smith’s viral, poetic evisceration of Jason Whitlock (04:59 – 06:14). Pablo argues, however, that as talented as Smith is, the true “GOAT” of trash talk is Muhammad Ali.

2. Muhammad Ali: The First Modern Mouthpiece

• I Am the Greatest – Genesis (08:12 – 13:47)
  • At 21, Cassius Clay records a full comedy album—“I Am the Greatest”—before he’s heavyweight champ, and is nominated for a Grammy in a category filled with legends like Bill Cosby, Mel Brooks, and the Smothers Brothers.
  • The album is more than bravado; it’s a blend of humor, prophetic self-belief, and calculated public performance.

"The fifth nominee—Cassius Clay, whose album title, perhaps the most appropriate in the history of album titles: 'I Am the Greatest.'"
—Pablo Torre (10:33)

• Historical Context: Ali’s trash talk—delivered in rhyme, with rhythm and humor—is reframed as arguably the first recorded “diss track,” and the album's format even foreshadows hip hop (11:51 – 12:00).

3. The Coming of Sonny Liston—Setting up a Cultural and Sporting Crossover

• Who Was Sonny Liston? (12:17 – 17:22)
  • A menacing, mob-tied, and nearly unbeatable heavyweight champ feared inside and outside the ring ("He could fight like hell.") Ali, then Cassius Clay, openly baited him with performances, poetry, and press conferences.
• Taking on the Villain:
  • When Clay gets under Liston’s skin, the press (and bookies) consider Clay’s chances laughable (16:23 – 18:20).

“A prizefight is like a cowboy movie. There has to be a good guy and a bad guy. People pay their money to see me lose. Only in my cowboy movie, the bad guy always wins.”
—Sonny Liston, quoted by Pablo Torre (16:50)

4. The Album as Psychological Warfare and Early Hip Hop

• The Comedy Album Live! (19:28 – 24:27)
  • The album, recorded live at Columbia Records Studios in 1963, is equally stand-up and performance art. Ali’s jokes, boasts, and verses are received with raucous laughter and applause.
• Intentionally Ahead of Its Time:
  • Each track/“round” is named like a boxing match and crafted for maximum bravado and wit, but with an undercurrent of self-aware humor (“I am modest”).
  • “Well, the real Sonny Liston please fall down” (Round 5) is dissected for its “diss” energy and lyrical cleverness—mapping directly onto what would become hip hop’s foundation.

"Some folks leave their brains to science, but when I go, I’m leaving my mouth."
—Cassius Clay, “I Am the Greatest” (25:38, quoted at 26:01)

5. Ali vs. Liston: Prophecy Fulfilled (28:06 – 33:11)

• Fight Night—Myth Becomes Reality:
  • Despite being a 7-1 underdog, Clay outmaneuvers and defeats Liston, who infamously doesn’t come out for the seventh round.
• Performance as Self-Manifestation:
  • The boundary between Ali’s self-myth-making and reality blurs—his victory echoes lines from his own album and post-fight claims (“I am the king! What made him so easy? I was too fast. He was scared.”).

6. Transformation, Controversy, and Consequence (34:50 – 38:56)

• The Day After Glory:
  • The album’s sales skyrocket, but the cultural celebration and commercial momentum stop abruptly when Clay publicly declares his new name—Muhammad Ali—and alignment with the Nation of Islam.
• Fallout:
  • Ali faces hostility, lost commercial opportunities, and increasing public scrutiny, culminating in later exile from boxing over his refusal to fight in Vietnam.

7. Vulnerability Beneath Bravado (39:04 – 42:27)

• Ali’s Secret Fear:
  • Despite the confidence and rhetoric, Ali later admits that he was “scared to death” the first time he faced Liston.
• Bragging as Self-Motivation:
  • Floyd Patterson told David Remnick, “Clay was talking to Clay. All of Clay’s bragging was a way to convince himself that he could do what he said he’d do.” (41:00)

8. Cultural Aftershocks and Lost Grammy Gold

• Who Won the Grammy?
  • Despite the influence and later fame, Ali’s album lost to Alan Sherman’s “Hello Muddah, Hello Fadduh” ("Alan Sherman... I demand a recount!" — Pablo Torre, 42:43).
• Ali’s Second Grammy Nomination—The Tooth Decay Album:
  • In 1976, Ali is nominated again—this time for a children’s LP, “The Adventures of Ali and His Gang vs. Mr. Tooth Decay,” featuring a celebrity cast (Frank Sinatra, Howard Cosell, et al.).

“He comes full circle again. He gets to be the role model... this is now again ’76... Now, you understand what he went through to come back around to claiming that title... listen to Muhammad Ali, brush your teeth.”
—Pablo Torre (44:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Stephen A. Smith’s epic rant:
  “He is the worst human being any of you will ever meet. You get within a mile of his presence, wrap your arms around yourself to protect your soul. He is Cain. He is a devil. The worst.”
  —Stephen A. Smith (03:10)

• On Ali’s poetry/trash talk:
  “He talks a great deal and brags, indeed, of a muscular punch that’s incredibly speedy.”
  —Cassius Clay, “I Am the Greatest” (10:49, sample played)

• The “diss” lyric:
  “Klay swings with his left, Klay swings with his right. Look at young Cassius carry the fight... If he goes back an inch further, he’ll end up in a ringside seat.”
  —Read by Justin Tinsley (26:32–27:11)

• On Ali’s post-fight bravado mirroring his album:
  "Tell the truth, Cassius! ... I have upset the world! ... I am the king!"
  —Cassius Clay (32:48)

• Ali on becoming Muhammad Ali:
  “Clay was not my name. It was a white man’s name, it was a slave name. And I’m no longer Clay. I’m no longer a slave. So now I’m Muhammad Ali.”
  —Muhammad Ali (35:22)

• Ali on fear:
  "That's the only time I was ever scared in the ring. Sonny Liston, first time, first round. Said he was going to kill me."
  —Muhammad Ali (39:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Stephen A. Smith vs. Jason Whitlock Rant: 03:10 – 06:14
• Introduction to “I Am the Greatest” Album: 08:12 – 13:47
• Sonny Liston's Backstory: 14:23 – 17:22
• Album as Psychological Warfare & Hip Hop Precursor: 19:28 – 27:11
• Ali vs. Liston Fight: 28:06 – 32:03
• Ali Becomes Muhammad Ali / Nation of Islam Fallout: 34:50 – 38:56
• Ali’s Vulnerability—Bragging as Self-Encouragement: 39:04 – 42:27
• Who Won the Grammy? / Ali's Second Grammy Nomination: 42:27 – 45:22

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Tone & Closing Feel

Pablo and Justin bring a blend of wit, reverence, and deep research. The episode swings between hilarious (Ali the proto-rapper, the tooth decay album’s all-star cast) and poignant (Ali’s loneliness after his Nazi-listening years, his admission of fear, his standing on principle despite the cost). The episode closes highlighting Ali’s ability to literally talk himself—and the sports world—into new realities, while redefining what it meant to be a public figure.

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Why Listen (If You Haven’t)

This episode is more than a story about a quirky sports artifact—it’s about self-belief, public performance, the invention of a modern archetype, and the interplay between sports, race, culture, and media in America. Ali’s Grammy-nominated album isn’t a footnote—it’s a forerunner to our entire era of athlete as brand, entertainer, and social force.

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Listen if you want to know:

• How Muhammad Ali came to define modern trash talk and media performance
• How his “comedy album” prefigured hip hop and the “diss track”
• How race, religion, and celebrity collided (with real-world fallout)
• Why even Ali, the world’s most confident man, sometimes needed to believe his own hype

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Justin Tinsley]

Hey, aren't you mahamale? Yes, indeed. That's who I am.

[Pablo Torre]

Wow. The greatest. Right after this ad, you're listening to Giraffe Kings. That was terrible. I could just keep this part in. It just didn't land this part in. Try it. Try again.

[Justin Tinsley]

All right, here we go.

[Pablo Torre]

That was slightly better.

[Cortez]

Slightly better.

[Pablo Torre]

I. I could talk about your clapping ability for a very long time.

[Cortez]

Well, don't.

[Pablo Torre]

But it reminds me of what we're here to talk about today, which is that this is allegedly Cortez. The golden age of talking.

[Cortez]

Yes, it is the golden age of talking.

[Justin Tinsley]

Sh.

[Cortez]

T. You know what I think of when I think of that?

[Pablo Torre]

I have a guess.

[Cortez]

It involves the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course.

[Cortez]

Because on the Reunion League.

[Pablo Torre]

I can't believe you're starting with this. Actually, I can. Of course I can.

[Cortez]

You said trash talk. I'm bringing you the goat. Trash talker right now. Her name's Monica Garcia. She was a fan of the show. She got people thrown in jail on the show. Now she started a burner account on the show and now the reunion. A burner account about the show, rather. Now at the reunion, she's throwing haymakers like this. She is a genius trash talker. Go ahead.

[Pablo Torre]

Why are you talking? Why are you talking?

[Justin Tinsley]

Shut up.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Really?

[Justin Tinsley]

You're so classic. Stop talking. I'm not. This doesn't even involve you. Just like most Monica.

[Pablo Torre]

Did we ever make. Yo.

[Cortez]

That went hard.

[Pablo Torre]

When you said that she had someone thrown in jail. Was that literally jail?

[Justin Tinsley]

Yeah.

[Cortez]

Jen Shaw, she got arrested because of Monica Garcia. It's an amazing show. This is for another episode.

[Pablo Torre]

Do I even want to. Exactly. I don't actually want to really follow up on how it is that that person actually got sentenced and so. Or. Or apprehended by the police defrauding the elderly car. Very good. That is unfortunately, a great example. That was. That was. That was pretty good.

[Cortez]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

And it's actually symptomatic of the larger way in which all of sports is. Now that.

[Cortez]

Do you think of when you think of trash? What's. What's been in the news for you?

[Pablo Torre]

The AFC title game.

[Cortez]

Zay Flowers.

[Pablo Torre]

Zay Flowers, right. Gets flagged for taunting. Standing over that chief's defender Joe Burrow.

[Cortez]

Jumps in on Twitter, says, you know, let. Let the guys taunt.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Big Real Housewives of Salt Lake City energy from Joe Burrow. I agree with him from the sideline. In this case, a benchwarming B during this postseason. But also, like, Luca, right? Because, like, fans are obviously in on this. And so Luka got that guy kicked out of Dallas because apparently the fan had said to Luka, yelled at him, luka, you tired? Get on the treadmill.

[Cortez]

Honestly, not that offensive. Like, whatever.

[Pablo Torre]

And what's funny is that Luka then, days later, scores 70. He's like, okay, not terribly tired.

[Cortez]

But, I mean, that's a blowout. But if, like, a real blowout in the context of what we're talking about to me is like, what Stephen A. Did to Jason Whitlock, because that was just absolutely incredible. Can we play some of that, please?

[Stephen A. Smith]

He is the worst human being any of you will ever meet. You get within a mile of his presence, wrap your arms around yourself to protect your soul. He is Cain. He is a devil. The worst. That's all I have to say. Y' all have a nice day. I'm gonna go about my business. I will not speak about this piece of again. Peace and love.

[Pablo Torre]

I forgot that it ends with peace and love.

[Justin Tinsley]

It's the best, bro.

[Cortez]

As an orator, he is. He is the greatest.

[Pablo Torre]

So. So, Stephen A. On Whitlock. I want to add a couple of things for the audience to know. I want to let them in behind the scenes of what we do here in our newsroom. Yeah. We have never spiked an episode until the time that Dan visited New York and he sat where you sat. Are sitting now, and we attempted to do an episode about Kane himself. The devil.

[Cortez]

The lost tapes. I mean, those are buried now.

[Stephen A. Smith]

We.

[Pablo Torre]

And I won't get into right now why we spiked it. Just know that we tried, and there was some in there, and I decided journalistically, like, we're not ready to report this in public yet.

[Cortez]

Yeah. Because the bar on this is what Stephen A. Did, and we haven't even gotten to the real bar.

[Pablo Torre]

The real bar. Bars, to me, is. Is. Is a line that on paper, doesn't sound as impactful as calling someone a biblical traitor. But in delivery, I mean, it's.

[Stephen A. Smith]

I couldn't write.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Huh.

[Stephen A. Smith]

While you were on Blaze TV spewing that bull to people, did you tell them that? Did you tell them how you stood outside, outside of first take, begging me to talk to you? Did you tell them that once the same article in Deadspin came out weeks later, you wrote a lengthy apology to me in an email, begging me to forgive you, pointing out how you were betrayed by this particular writer. So you know how I must feel that you betrayed me. Did you tell the folks that you. Did you tell them, you fat piece of shit? Did you tell him that you are a great writer? Your mistake was you started talking and worse, wanting to be seen while you were talking, which is why your quality and your value plummeted.

[Justin Tinsley]

Damn.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Cause when we see you and we listen to you, we know how worthless you are.

[Pablo Torre]

Stephen A says the B word in a way that I have not heard delivered from him because it just felt like it came from. From the soul, the most real, deep place inside of.

[Cortez]

To me, what I love about that and what I see when I watch that is almost like a bouncing vibrancy to him in that. In the first part of that clip, when he's running through the things and he's like, did you tell him that? Did you remember?

[Pablo Torre]

And he. He's almost like. He gets real close. Yes, Mike.

[Cortez]

And the second part of the clip is. Is even more. In a different performance of slowing it down.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Cortez]

Pace wise, there's nobody that could do both.

[Pablo Torre]

The one pushback I will give Cortez, which brings us around to today's episode, is that you called him the greatest. And it's. It's an understandable claim. It's just not true.

[Cortez]

I don't know how I could be wrong on that, so go ahead.

[Justin Tinsley]

So.

[Pablo Torre]

So what I wanted to do today is educate people about. Genuinely the greatest trash talker of all time. We talk about how Stephen A, in that way, is a poet. I want to bring actual poetry to the proceedings here. I want to tell people the story of the literal greatest of all time, as he came to be known, as he appointed himself, and how it is that he actually earned that title to the point where he got. He got nominated for a Grammy. And that's. That's after the break, you. So, Justin Tinsley, I. I'm always excited when you text me with a story. This time, I was both deeply excited and also a little embarrassed.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Why is that?

[Pablo Torre]

Because I did not know about something that I have now become obsessed with.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

That you turned me on to.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And I am a person whose show is ostensibly about the ways in which sports sort of, like, overflow out into the wider world of America and its history.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And this is, like. It's just one of the best stories I've. I've now learned about, thanks to you.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

We're talking about Muhammad Ali. For the majority of this conversation. You'll probably hear us refer to him as his birth name, Cassius clay. And at 21 years old, this dude earned a Grammy nomination, probably the most consequential Grammy nomination of all time, for a comedy album. A comedy album, Pablo, it's absurd.

[Pablo Torre]

It's Grammy season. The Grammys are happening this weekend, and the awards ceremony we're about to dive into here at the top, they happened exactly 60 years ago. So this is 1964.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

And so the nominees, also in the category of best comedy album were who?

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Bill Cosby.

[Justin Tinsley]

And he would do a thing, what you call chain stoking, which is you breathe and then you stop, you know? And he used to bug us. Really, dad? Breathe, so we can breathe. Oh, thanks a lot. You know, that kind of thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, and just Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner happened to be there, too. Other comedy Hollywood legends.

[Justin Tinsley]

First, I'd like you to meet the German representative from Narci.

[Pablo Torre]

Narzi.

[Justin Tinsley]

Narzi.

[Pablo Torre]

From the Narzi Film Company.

[Justin Tinsley]

Herr Adolf Hartler. Good afternoon, Herr Hartler. Hi, Hartler. How are you?

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

The Smothers Brothers were there. The Smothers Brothers.

[Pablo Torre]

Soap. Soap. Soap. So, so, so, so, so what are you doing? Trying to sing about eight bars. And this guy, Alan Sherman, who I didn't know by name, but know certainly by song. Hello, Ma.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And the fifth nominee, Cassius Clay, whose album title perhaps the most appropriate album title in the history of album titles.

[Pablo Torre]

And the most subtle and the most.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Subtle for I Am the Greatest.

[Justin Tinsley]

I Am the Greatest by Cassius Clay. This is the legend of Cassius Clay, the most beautiful fighter in the world today. He talks a great deal and brags, indeed of a muscular punch that's incredibly speedy.

[Pablo Torre]

What's crazy about this thing is that it goes on to explain all of these actual enormous stories and historical events that I did know about. But now, because I see it through the lens of I Am the greatest make just a lot more sense to me.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

When you look at the dates and when you look at the events with. Associated with these. These dates, you're going to start to see, like, wait, this led to the. The birth of Muhammad Ali. This led to conversations that we would have around Black Muslims, AKA the Nation of Islam. This would lead to him protesting the Vietnam War. This would lead to something like the birth of hip hop years later.

[Pablo Torre]

And even more specifically, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that this was arguably the first recorded diss track.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And it wasn't even a diss track.

[Pablo Torre]

It was a diss album over 10 tracks, right? And that's how it started. 10 tracks of musical trash talk. And so 21 year old cashes Clay. His subject, his target in full clarity is who in 1963?

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Sonny Liston. And when I say his name right now, I get goosebumps saying it. Sonny Liston. And I have never walked the earth at the same time. And I'm still scared of this dude. This is the most menacing guy, not just in boxing, but probably in popular culture at this point. And that's who a 21 year old Cassius Clay was openly taunting.

[Justin Tinsley]

Friends, Roman's countrymen. Lend me your ears. I come to Barry Liston not to praise him. I'm going to fight Sonny Liston. That is if he doesn't chicken out. I will win that fight because I'm president of the boxing world and this fist is my veto. I am the greatest. Mr. Liston is an old man. He's 30 years old. He has no business been in the same ring with me. I'd like to help that poor old man. I want to give him lessons. Boxing lessons, talking lessons. I'll teach him anything. But since he's gonna fight me, what he needs most is falling less.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to establish that the mythology you're about to say here is not actually mythology. No, no, this is real. The facts on sonny Liston in 1963, when Muhammad Ali was then Cassius Clay.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

21 years old. And by the way, Cassius Clay at this point had never been heavyweight champion of the world.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

No, no, no, he hasn't.

[Pablo Torre]

He was an up and coming boxer. And the man who had that title, which also meant you were the biggest and baddest athlete. Yes, human being on earth belonged to Sonny Liston. That was the belt that he owned. And Sonny Liston was more than just like a good heavyweight. He was what he was.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

An all time great heavyweight. Like this dude was a problem in the ring, but he was also a problem outside of the ring. Which only added to the mystique around him. If I can, I want to read a quote from Henry Conrad. This is In Thomas Hauser's 1992 biography, Muhammad Ali his life and times. This is an exact quote. Sonny Liston was a mean. This was a guy who got arrested a hundred times. He went to prison for armed robbery. He got out, went back again for beating up a copy. Wound up being managed by organized crime. When Sonny gave you the evil lie, I don't care who you were, you shrunk to 2ft tall. And oh yeah, one more thing, he could fight like hell.

[Pablo Torre]

Like this stuff about like the mob ties Real, okay.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

These are real ties that he had.

[Pablo Torre]

Sonny, listen, just maybe more simpler way to say it. This was the guy that a young Mike Tyson idolized and looked up to and also felt, listen.

[Justin Tinsley]

What the real deal, you know, like some guys out here, they get in the paper, listen. Was knocking the cops out, breaking the. Just knocking. So when he comes to a town, listen, come to Philadelphia, so to speak. The cops made a call. They come to the train station, the bus station, wherever you at, you can't come here. You get on the bus and leave. They won't let him. St. Louis, you can't come. And the cops at the train station get on the bus and leave. They won't let him come in the States. Formidable, mean son of a. And he happened to be a fighter.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Dude like Chuck Wepner.

[Justin Tinsley]

I had 147 fights, four world champions. I fought, I fought nine guys in the top 10.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

The real life inspiration for Rocky Balboa has said, nobody ever hit me like that guy.

[Justin Tinsley]

Every time he hit you, he broke something. I went to 10 rounds with him.

[Pablo Torre]

Broke my nose, my left cheekbone and gave me 72 stitches. And for good measure, by the way, George Foreman, one of the great heavyweights of all time, he trained with Sonny Liston. And what Foreman said was, oh, Sonny.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Liston, no doubt the scariest human being I've met in the ring.

[Pablo Torre]

But I want to point out here that Sonny Liston became a household name because in 1962 now he had knocked out Floyd Patterson and Floyd Patterson again. For the kids out there, this is an all time great. This was the defending heavyweight champion of the world. Sonny Liston, knocked his ass out in two minutes and six seconds into the first round. Yes, he becomes champion the next year, 1963. Sonny Liston knocks out Floyd Patterson again in 2 minutes and 10 seconds, again in the first round to defend his belt.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He had just knocked Floyd Patterson out again for a second time. And he said this quote, a prize fight is like a cowboy movie. There has to be a good guy and a bad guy. People pay their money to see me lose. Only in my cowboy movie, the bad guy always wins.

[Pablo Torre]

He's a villain, right?

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He's a villain, dude. Like there is no hyperbole with this guy.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, no, he' if you told me that Sonny Liston was dangling people out of windows.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

I'd be like, yeah, that tracks.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah. And that's just the appetizer, Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so, and so this is all to say that that is the man. A 20 year old Cassius Clay is like baiting. He's actively calling him out. And he. Because Cassius Clay, of course, you'd be unsurprised to learn, I suppose, was an ambitious young man.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I would have put it.

[Pablo Torre]

And Sonny Liston's response I. About what he wanted to do to Cash his clay was. Yeah, not. Not all that subtle either.

[Justin Tinsley]

If any come to me, I kill him. And if we run, I'm going catch.

[Pablo Torre]

Him and kill him. It's also worth pointing out that Cash's clay at this point, you know, this was not like him winning over everybody with his boxing acumen. March 1963. Cashes Clay had just fought Doug Jones in front of Madison Square Garden. He had sold out the Garden, which was great, but the Garden didn't exactly love the fact that Clay eked out this decision over Doug Jones.

[Justin Tinsley]

Cassius Clay is mimicking some of the people who are booing the decision, while Doug Jones very nonchalantly says anything. Debris is coming into the ring now and here.

[Pablo Torre]

And then June 1963, couple months later, Cassius Clay goes to Wembley Stadium in London, and it's a big fight. And he knocks out Henry Cooper. But in the process, Henry Cooper also knocks him down. Yeah, he falls backwards into the ropes.

[Justin Tinsley]

The bell has sounded, and he's up at about three Clay.

[Pablo Torre]

So here is Cash's Clay now, kind of limping. Yeah, he's limping into the summer of 1963. He is known as a huge talker already, as this self promoter who is certainly, like, wildly talented in that respect, but nobody saw him as on the level of Sonny Liston.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

So in August 63, he has a press conference at the Americana Hotel. This is an event. This is a production. He's not just like, hey, meet me at the ballroom at the Americana. I want to talk to y' all about something. He's announcing this comedy album, and it's.

[Pablo Torre]

Through Columbia Records, which is an enormous music publishing house.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

They signed him to a recording contract, which about the time it was around 25,000 dol. Now account for inflation in 2024. That's about a quarter million, right? That. That's a lot.

[Pablo Torre]

Real money.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

That's real money. We know he can talk. We know he's sure about himself. But what do you have to say on an album, right?

[Pablo Torre]

What is this going to sound like now?

[Justin Tinsley]

Ladies and gentlemen, from Louisville, Kentucky, wearing black tie, Mr. Cassius Marcellus Clay.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And here's another crazy thing about this comedy album. It's recorded in front of a live Audience, Right. So he's not just cracking jokes and he's the only one in the studio. He's cracking jokes and he's getting that immediate gratification from the audience.

[Pablo Torre]

No, this is itself like an athletic event.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

200 people. It's at the Columbia Record Studios in Manhattan. And you'll hear pretty immediately these mother were loving it.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Justin Tinsley]

I Am the Greatest by Cassius Clay. This is the legend of Cassius Clay, the most beautiful fighter in the world today. He talks a great deal and brags indeed of a muscular punch that's incredibly speedy. The fistic world was dull and weary. With a champ like Liston, things had to be dreary. Then someone of color, someone with dash, brought fight fans or running with cash.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Dude, like, so at this point in Ali's career, I think he's fought maybe around like 20, 21 professional fights.

[Pablo Torre]

Undefeated.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Undefeated. And in 13 of those, he predicted the exact round that the fight would end.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. He had this thing where he was calling his shot.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And it was actually working, which was prophetic and. And a real, like, subplot to everything he would ever say.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

When you listen to I Am the Greatest, you understand that everything about this album, Pablo, everything was intentional. From the fact that, like, each song wasn't a song or a track. It was called a round.

[Justin Tinsley]

Here I predict Mr. Liston's dismemberment. I'll hit him so hard, he'll wonder where October and November went.

[Pablo Torre]

The track list on this, yes, is hilarious.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Round one, I am the greatest. Round two, I am the double greatest.

[Pablo Torre]

And so when you listen to this, the other thing that becomes clear too, which I didn't know until I spent my week, like, having this on repeat, is that Cassius Clay is also kind of in on this joke.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Oh, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So him as a performer, him as both a guy with an ego, obviously. Obviously. He's picking himself to win and knock people out all the time. But when he declares himself the greatest, there is this wink to it, like a bit of self awareness coming through that all of this is also absurd.

[Justin Tinsley]

Liston's fall will mark the arrival of spring. Yes. That's gonna be a new champion. A champion you can tell your kids to be like, I'm a perfect idol for the kids. I'm good looking, clean living, cultured, and I am modest.

[Pablo Torre]

Just like him. Again, actively trolling Sonny Liston.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah, but I wanna talk about track three. Excuse me? I wanna talk about round three. It's called do youo have To Ask? And when you listen to it, there's like this call and response method. It reminds you of a Greek chorus, but when you listen to it, it's kind of like the predecessor for what would become hip hop music.

[Justin Tinsley]

Cassius of old dropped Caesar 20 centuries ago. Go, go, go. And this Cassius will cool Liston, as you already know. No, no, no. Yes, yes, yes. For at the end of the bout, you're gonna hear the ref shout the winner and new champion. Mr. Liston won't see that the victor is me. For stars are all he'll be seen.

[Pablo Torre]

There's an article from esquire magazine in 63 written by Tom Wolfe, one of the great writers of all time. And he's there for the rehearsals and he's watching Ali Cassius Clay micromanage.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And it's so funny to imagine that scene while also looking again at this track list.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Oh, my God.

[Pablo Torre]

Because from here it begins to resemble the track list does. Like the Andre 3000 flute album.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Where it's like the night in Hawaii when I turned into a panther. You know, like that, that track. Because round four is titled what?

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

I have written a drama. He said playfully.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. The sentence.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes. That's the title of the song. I'm not quoting him. That's the title of the song. Round five. Will the real Sonny Liston please fall down? Round six. Funny you should ask. No, literally, that's the title. That's the title. Funny you should ask. Round 7, 2138.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And round 8, appropriately titled the knockout.

[Pablo Torre]

And there was this question heading in, right? Like, okay, we have this athlete. He's awesome at sports. Cool. We're gonna have him do music stuff.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

Is this gonna feel, as Tom Wolf put it, like this is forcing piano lessons on somebody? Cassius Clay quote was desperately interested in whether or not his lines were genuinely funny. He tried them out on every newcome came into the room. That is the quote that Tom Wolf put into his piece and Esquire. That's what he observed. And again, you listen to this album. That was the rehearsal and it all adds up.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He took it seriously. And there's this really great quote that he ends, round seven, 2138. And he's playing 175-year-old man at this point.

[Pablo Torre]

To just be clear, 2138 the year.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Cassius Clay is now 175 years old. That's the perspective of the song.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Keep in mind, we're just in 2024 right now. You know, we still got a long way till 2138. Comes around, but in it. And I think this is one of the more powerful things that, especially in terms of foresight that he ever said. And he, he ends the track like this. And I quote to this nation I've made this bequest so spread the word.

[Justin Tinsley]

North and south Some folks leave their brains to science but when I go.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

I'm leaving my mouth.

[Justin Tinsley]

It's the greatest.

[Pablo Torre]

So for you, yeah, the best track on I am the greatest musically speaking.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Is what I have to go Round five. Well, the real Sonny Liston, please fall down. And when we talk about like hip hop and diss records, I want to read some lyrics out for y'.

[Pablo Torre]

All.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And I'm going to try. I'm not even going to try to read it in Cassius Clay's tone because there's only one hymn. But when you listen to this, understand the intention behind every line and what it was he was trying to do. And it starts like this. Klay comes out to meet Liston. And Liston starts to retreat. But if he goes back an inch further, he'll end up in a ringside seat. Klay swings with his left, Klay swings with his right. Look at young Cassius carry the fight.

[Justin Tinsley]

Liston keeps backing, but there's not enough room. It's a matter of time. And Clay lost the boom. Now Clay lands a right. What a beautiful swing. The punch raises Liston clear out of the ring. Liston still rising. And the ref wears a frown for he can't start counting till Sonny comes down. Now Liston disappears from view. The crowd is getting frantic But I rate our stations have picked him up. He somewhere over the Atlantic. Who would have thought when they came to the fight that they witnessed the launching of a human satellite? Yes, the crowd did not dream when they put down their money that they would see a total eclipse of the sunny.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is our way, by the way, of setting the stage for one of the just the. The greatest sporting events that have ever happened. So this is the actual Ollie listed fight. We're in February 1964. Now it's 60 years ago this month as well. And the reality for people who maybe were swayed as persuadable voters here by Cash's Clay, the reality was that Las Vegas had Sonny Liston as a 7 to 1 favorite. It was actually, according to the reporting at the time. I went through newspapers, it was almost impossible to find a bookie who would even take the bet.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And that's respect to Liston.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, exactly. It was because everyone was like, he's obviously going to destroy this dude. If we're going to take these bets, we're just going to lose money even at seven to one, right?

[Justin Tinsley]

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Miami Beach, Florida, Miami Beach Convention Hall.

[Pablo Torre]

I was reading David Remnick's book on Ali, which is great. Remnick reported that the New York Times before this fight had mapped out the route from the Miami Beach Convention hall to the hospital. Because they expected that a now 22 year old Cassius Clay would wind up there. And so even his lawyers, Cassius Clay's lawyer was like, he said apparently that he mostly hoped his client would emerge, quote, alive and unhurt.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

But guess what? That bell rang.

[Justin Tinsley]

Cassius Clay on the move, as we see, looking to get Sonny to run, carrying his left hand dangerously low.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

So when you watch this fight, that album is in the back of your mind. But the thing you see immediately from, from the opening bell is like, yo, Clay is like droves faster than Liston. Like, how is Liston going to catch this guy in the ring?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, slippery is a word that the announcers use on the telecast. And Sonny Liston is just missing him by like 2ft.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He's dancing around, he's got that, you know, that prototypical Ali flair.

[Pablo Torre]

The shuffle, the shuffle.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He's dodging and like tagging Liston and like Liston can't catch him.

[Pablo Torre]

No. And everybody watching who again had clearly either bet on Cassius Clay to lose or were assuming him to be hurt in some way, they're realizing, oh, my God, this kid might not be full of.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

This kid might be the greatest. Like he really might be everything he said he was.

[Pablo Torre]

And so remember that Cassius Clay had predicted it was an eight round catalog he had given.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yep. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And so he was like a knockout in the eighth round. But what's crazy about this fight, what's even wilder about all of this, is that by the end of the sixth round.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Cassius Clay has cut Sonny Liston's face open. He is bleeding.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The cameras are zooming in as he is tended to by his corner man.

[Justin Tinsley]

Now they're working, as we note with our camera shots in there below the left eye. They've already worked below the right eye. There you see them? Joe Pollino trying to keep that cut closed. Do you feel as though Sonny being busted up a little bit, puffed up a little bit around the face? Will this make a difference?

[Pablo Torre]

I want to play the ABC broadcast for you here. This is the ABC radio broadcast. It's Howard Cosell, the late, great Howard Cosell. And this is what he says.

[Justin Tinsley]

All I can say is what Rocky Marciano has just said. This is hard to figure out. As we come up to round seven, Clay looks like he had about half it coming into the fourth round. Now, wait a minute, Wait a minute. Sonny Liston's not coming out. Sonny Liston is not coming out. He's out. The winner and the new heavyweight champion of the world is Cash. His play last time going up into.

[Pablo Torre]

The ring, I get goosebumps. This.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yo, dude. I literally just got goosebumps hearing that.

[Pablo Torre]

He made Sonny Liston quit.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He made. He made. Sonny Liston didn't leave the corner.

[Pablo Torre]

No. So this is before the seventh round.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Before the seventh round.

[Pablo Torre]

So reality is actually even better than the prediction that Cashes Clay had made of knocking him out in the eighth.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And immediately after, it's clear that the fight is over. Cash's Clay is now, of course, mobbed. Microphones are jammed in his face. And when you listen to him in this moment, it is like he had walked out of the Columbia record studio.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Directly in front of this microphone. Because he says this.

[Justin Tinsley]

Tell the truth, Cassius. Get that I have upset the world. Give me justice. Did you ever believe it would happen this? I told you, if he want to go to heaven, we get him in seventh. I am the king. I am the king. I am the king. What made him so easy playing? Because I'm too fast. He was scared.

[Pablo Torre]

I was too fast.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

He was scared. But you know, a crazy thing that happened with. With Cash's Clay immediately following this fight, you got to go back to the actual album. Now, you couldn't find that album in stores the day after that fight. So the album has sold, up to that point, 30,000 records. That was respectable. But after this fight, it propelled that album to the 500,000 copies sold threshold.

[Pablo Torre]

So it's a gold. Gold record.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah. Which is gold. You got respectable publications like the Milwaukee Journal, they called the greatest the comedy album of the year.

[Pablo Torre]

My favorite detail is everyone's trying to monetize this immediate aftermath. Because, of course, this is capitalism, right? Is that they're like, we need to get this dude back on the radio.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And so what do they do?

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

So we're going to push his cover of Standby Me onto radio stations. Benny King, one of the most popular songs of the day and all time for the record. So we're going to push this out there. And when you listen to it, it's like, wait, he's not Benny King, but he ain't Bad either.

[Pablo Torre]

No, he is singing in this.

[Justin Tinsley]

When the night has come and the land is dark and the moon is the only light we see no, I won't be afraid no, I won't be afraid Just as long as you stand, Stand.

[Pablo Torre]

Yo, imagine having your ass kicked by this dude. More sales. And the Beatles. The Beatles, bro. In 64 now more sales than Barbara Streisand had. And all of that was going gangbusters for Columbia Records.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

Until something else that happened. Which was also the day after Cash's Clay beat Sunny Liston.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

This is the nuts part about it. Cassius Clay was no longer known as Cassius Clay.

[Pablo Torre]

Why don't you like to be called Clay anymore?

[Justin Tinsley]

No, Clay was not my name. Once we follow the believe, hear the understand the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And come into knowledge of ourselves. Then we want to be called after names of our people. Which are named to fit us black people. And Clay was a white man's name. It was a slave name. And I'm no longer Clay. I'm no longer a slave. So now I'm Muhammad Ali.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

So when you take into account that he changed his name. And now he's directly aligned with the Nation of Islam. People have been assuming this for months. Malcolm X had been at a lot of his fights. Malcolm X was a very close friend of his. It's unfortunate, but it's also easy to understand why the sales tanked after that. Because Columbia Records panicked. Because it was like, yo, we cannot put a guy named Muhammad Ali front and center. His entire livelihood was basically threatened at this point, Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Remember what he was singing about, what he was performing poetry about? He was the perfect role model for kids. And he had all of this room full of white people laughing. He was this leader of this room, right. Of these people who were exactly who a PR person for Columbia Records might imagine would now be terrified of. If he was, in fact, a member of the Nation of Islam. And so all of that roaring laughter. That crowd that loved it was applauding. It was laughing too hard sometimes, yeah, all that just stops.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

It stopped on a dime. And when you look at the course of Ali's life. Let's just say the next two, three years, so much changed. By February 1965, Malcolm X had been assassinated. Malcolm X, who was one of his closest friends. And years later, Muhammad Ali would go on to write that turning his back on Malcolm X Was the single biggest regret of his life. And he was like, I wish he was still here so I could tell him how right he was. About so many things. So his good friend Sam Cooke, who was on the original version of this album, was murdered in December 1964. And oh yeah, a couple of years later, this guy basically gets the prime years of his career stripped away from him because he said, I'm not going to Vietnam.

[Justin Tinsley]

Why should me and other so called Negroes go 10,000 miles away from home here in America to drop bombs and bullets on other innocent brown people who's never bothered us? And I will say directly, no, I will not go.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Here's the thing about Vietnam that I think a lot of people really don't understand in terms of just Ali's boxing career. Pablo. We watch a lot of sports. We've been watching a lot of sports all our lives. And we know in boxing, if you take the ages 25 to 28, that is the meat of your prime. Ali never had 25 to 28. The years 1967 to 1970 are blank for him because he couldn't fight. This is all before he turns 30, by the way.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. And so when we think of the Muhammad Ali that we know today, who is, by the way, now pretty unimpeachably, exactly what everyone was laughing at him for saying, which is the greatest. We think about his fights against Foreman and Joe Frazier and all of these guys, and all that stuff happens. Flowing out of this sort of domino effect.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Flowing out of that comedy album.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And the thing that jumped out at me as I was reading through these books this past week.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Was that this entire time. Right. Like this whole story is about fearlessness. And Muhammad Ali had held a secret about how he really felt the night he faced Sonny Liston, the night before he became brave enough to become Muhammad Ali.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

He faces the baddest man in the world and what he says is this quote. That's the only time I was ever scared in the ring. Sonny Liston, first time, first round, said he was going to kill me.

[Justin Tinsley]

Sonny Liston was, before I fought him, considered one of the greatest fighters in history. Sonny Liston had a punch that knocked out F.L. patterson, who just got one round fights, one fist as big as BU. Everybody was scared of him. Were you scared of.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Listen.

[Justin Tinsley]

Scared to death.

[Pablo Torre]

And so when you see it through something, he would confess, as he said, you know, years and years later, that actually that 21 year old who walked into the ring in Miami that night.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

That kid was terrified. It changes actually also the way the album sounds when you listen to it again.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Absolutely. And it's one of the more relatable concepts about the album. Because we've all been that young kid who's like, probably bull their way into a room that we probably didn't deserve to be.

[Pablo Torre]

Around the horn for us.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around the horn for us. Like, oh, he's a 21 year old, basically building his confidence up on the fly, which is a very dangerous move, because if it doesn't work out, that's how you're remembered in history.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. He goes all in on himself.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And he's doing it in a way that. Again, I. I gotta cite David Remnick here because Remnick interviews Floyd Patterson years and years later about Ali in this book. And this is what Floyd Patterson tells him. And it kind of. When I read this, it kind of just explained everything to me about why Cassius Clay was doing all of this in the way that he did that young.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

Floyd Patterson said this quote. I never liked all his bragging. It took me a long time to understand who Clay was talking to. Clay was talking to Clay. All of Clay's bragging was a way to convince himself that he could do what he said he'd do. You see that in that way, man.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah, man.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, he's actually trying to motivate himself, to convince himself he's the person who needed to be convinced that he was the greatest this entire time.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

That's some deep when you really look at it, because you're basically playing your own experiences, your own emotions out on the world stage. It's different, you know, sitting on the couch with your friends, like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna be the greatest. Greatest at whatever position.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm gonna make the league one day.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah, I'm gonna make the league. No, you're doing it in front of the world. The cameras are here, the reporters are here.

[Pablo Torre]

Your life, your safety, your physical health is on the line.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Exactly. And to know that, like you just said, he pushed all the chips to the center of the table on him. He bet that this is the literal interpretation of betting on yourself and winning beyond your. Your wildest imagination. But it's important to point this out. 64 is the year that changed Ali's life. He, you know, he became the greatest. He beat Sonny Liston. But he did take an L that year. He didn't win the Grammy for best Comedy album after all this. Sorry if you got this far in the podcast. You thinking he won? Surprise, surprise. He lost to Alan Sherman.

[Pablo Torre]

Alan Sherman. Beat that ass.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah. Alan Sherman. Sonny listened to me.

[Pablo Torre]

Hello, mother.

[Justin Tinsley]

Hello. The arriving on that.

[Pablo Torre]

Dude put On a propeller on his head, for the record.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

And this is who he lost to. I demand a recount. I demand a recount. Are you serious?

[Pablo Torre]

Alan German put a propeller on his head and he is singing. Hello, Mother, hello, Vada.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Cash's clay just beat the scariest man in the world. He didn't even come out the out the corner.

[Pablo Torre]

But the good news from Muhammad Ali.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that he would get another shot at the Grammys. And this is where it's just like the story doesn't end. Right? So Muhammad Ali, it's 1976 now.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And he gets a second Grammy nomination because he's returned to the recording studio to take on what was arguably maybe the only opponent scarier than Sonny Liston. Justin Tinsley.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Tooth Decay.

[Justin Tinsley]

Calm down, Allie. What you doing here? I have a new battle coming up. Win. This is a different kind of battle. And I have to train just as hard, eat the right kind of food, and good, healthy exercise won't hurt either. This one's against Mr. Tooth decay and the terrible, terrible things that bring. Brings that nasty Mr. Tooth decay around.

[Pablo Torre]

So I should say that this extremely real album, Justin.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yes, it's real.

[Pablo Torre]

The adventures of Ali and his gang versus Mr. Tooth decay got nominated for a Grammy for best Children's Music album.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Which, honestly, Pablo, it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Like, this dude was literally known for his mouth and he's promoting good oral hygiene to kids. Like, it makes total sense.

[Pablo Torre]

And so he comes full circle again. He gets to be the role model. This is now again 76.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. And now we think of Ali, right. As you called him at the beginning of the show, like one of the most popular men ever.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And so now you understand what he went through to come back around to claiming that title, to be a guy who parents would be like, listen to Muhammad Ali, brush your teeth. Yeah, it was. And the cast on this dude, he's.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Got Howard Cosel, he's got Frank Sinatra. Like, this is a who's who. These are a listers, my friends.

[Justin Tinsley]

Have you seen two funny looking characters running amok around here? Hey, aren't you Muhammad Ali? Yes, indeed. That's who I am.

[Pablo Torre]

Wow.

[Justin Tinsley]

The greatest and the fastest right there. The gang hears about this. Yeah, John, let's go tell him. Hey, hey, wait a minute. May I come too? Oh, boy, oh, boy.

[Pablo Torre]

When you texted me, if you had told me this is all going to end with dentistry.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Yep. Tooth decay, bro. I would have.

[Pablo Torre]

I would have not believed you.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Pablo, hear me out. Muhammad Ali, Toof decay, Sprinkle in Sunny listed in the middle. We got an episode, baby.

[Pablo Torre]

A little Nation of Islam, Vietnam, some Mafia.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

We check all the boxes here.

[Pablo Torre]

I I It's just one of my favorite stories of all time, Justin.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Pablo, you know I love talking about stories like this to you. We all, we always do an incredible deep dive, and this is just the latest.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. My wife asks me, why are you listening to an album about tooth decay on repeat? And I'm like, honey, because, honey, Justin Tinsley is trying to help me tell the story of the greatest mouth in sports history. Thank you, dude.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

[Meadowlark Media Producer]

Sam.