How to Be a World-Famous Child Prodigy, with Golfer Michelle Wie West

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: How to Be a World-Famous Child Prodigy, with Golfer Michelle Wie West

Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Michelle Wie West
Release Date: July 25, 2024

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Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre explores what it means to be a world-famous child prodigy, inviting legendary golfer Michelle Wie West to reflect on her extraordinary life. From breaking records against adults as a young girl to navigating the complicated landscape of women’s sports, injury, and identity, Michelle discusses her journey from child prodigy to contented parent, offering candid insight into fame, pressure, and normalcy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michelle’s Childhood and Becoming a Prodigy

• Michelle shares memories of being both confident on the golf course and lonely at school.
  • She describes her 10-year-old self as a “cocky kid” on course but “awkward” and bullied in a new school ([05:01–05:57]).
  • Her imposing stature as a child (5'7", 175 lbs at age 10) led to a sense of otherness:
    • “I was like the kid that ate lunch in the bathroom.” ([05:57])
• Michelle reflects on her parents’ insistence on balancing sports and a normal childhood, including staying in school and prioritizing academics ([04:01–05:01]).
• On early athletic dominance:
  • Youngest to qualify for the US Women's Amateur at 10.
  • Youngest to qualify for an LPGA event at 12.
  • “I was like 6ft tall at age 13… I hit the ball for miles.” ([12:58])

2. Family and Cultural Influences

• Her father kept Tiger Woods’ backswing photo (not his daughter’s) in his wallet as motivation ([12:07–12:24]).
• The “Asian American immigrant mentality” influenced how her parents planned tournaments—opting for the highest level even for practical reasons like saving money ([07:48–09:43]).

3. Competing Against Men: Barriers and Breakthroughs

• Wie consistently challenged gender norms by playing and excelling in men’s events:
  • At 14, played at the Sony Open in Hawaii, shooting a 68—lowest ever by a woman in a PGA Tour event ([16:40–17:29]).
  • “The thing that I need people to remember... you beat 47 adult men... you are better than seven major winners.” ([17:57])
• The magnitude of expectation and controversy:
  • Michelle recounts the pressure to represent women and confront critics:
    • “It’s not just about myself. I’m representing the women that are being told ‘you can’t do that.’” ([18:30])
• On public criticism and even receiving death threats regarding her career choices as a teen ([19:46–20:06]).

4. Mental Health, Injury, and Perfectionism

• She candidly describes career-threatening injuries, including breaking her hand at 17 and dealing with parents and doctors unfamiliar with athletic rehab ([24:57–27:12]).
• Explains facing “the yips”—a psychological block affecting skilled movements (like putting):
  • "It’s like... you go to brush your teeth and you don't know how to hold the toothbrush" ([29:04]).
• Mental health conversations then and now:
  • “You were a wimp if you withdrew... you didn't want to admit you were hurting.” ([27:51])
  • Expresses relief that current athletes have more space to discuss these issues ([27:51–28:42]).

5. Dealing with Sexualization, Media, and Social Change

• Discusses being publicly sexualized due to her putting stance, culminating in an infamous incident involving Rudy Giuliani ([31:35–36:41]).
  • On her public response as a now-mother:
    • “I have to say something for the sake of my daughter and for other girls out there.” ([34:24])
• The media spectacle both elevated her and made normalcy difficult.

6. The Joy of Winning – US Women's Open 2014

• Reflects on her first major victory at age 25:
  • Captures the unique joy of that week:
    • “It’s one of those walks... like the walk down the aisle... you’re like, it’s too short. I never want it to end.” ([39:23])
    • “It was a perfect day.” ([40:57])
• The celebration included family, friends, and bands from Hawaii, making it feel like the ultimate culmination of her career ([39:23–40:56]).

7. Transitioning from Stardom: Injury, Family, Retirement

• Walking away from golf was influenced by injuries, a desire to be present for her children, and not wanting to miss out on family life ([42:59–44:07]).
  • “I don’t think you’ll ever have a regret of spending more time with your kids… that’s the one thing.” ([43:49])
• Michelle now sees the value of balanced happiness over relentless striving.

8. Reflections on Parenting and New Generations in Women’s Sports

• On parenting and resisting (or not) the tendency to become a “Tiger Mom”:
  • “I am doing exactly what my parents are doing, and it’s hard. You become your parents.” ([44:59–45:24])
• On the state of women’s sports:
  • “Women’s sports no longer a charity thing... you’re going because it’s exciting to watch.” ([46:35–46:57])
  • Pride in seeing full arenas and genuine fan interest ([47:32–48:02]).

9. Final Reflections—Legacy and Happiness

• Pablo asks how her childhood self would view the adult she has become ([48:10]):
  • “I think it would be a mix of disappointment and joy, but... I love how my life turned out. I love our family... all I wanted to be was happy.” ([48:30])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Childhood Duality
  • “I felt like literally I was fractured. My soul was fractured… It was like the kid that ate lunch in the bathroom.” (Michelle, [05:01])
• On Parental Motivation
  • “My dad had Tiger Woods’ backswing in his wallet and did not have a picture of me.” (Michelle, [12:07])
• On Gender Barriers
  • “The question that I had all the time was, ‘Why not? Why shouldn’t we?’ It doesn’t say, you know, Male Professional Golf Association. It just says Professional Golf Association.” (Michelle, [13:21])
• On The Crushing Weight of Expectation
  • “There’s so much more riding on this than you just shooting a low number. It’s the whole woman versus men conversation… it’s the people that you have to prove wrong.” (Michelle, [18:30])
• On Mental Health and Toughness Culture
  • “You were a wimp if you withdrew… you didn’t want to admit that you were hurting... I’m so happy the mental health conversations are happening now.” (Michelle, [27:51])
• On Winning Her First Major
  • “It’s one of those walks—that’s like, you know, like the walk down the aisle… you’re like, it’s too short. I never want it to end.” (Michelle, [39:23])
• On the Evolution of Women’s Sports
  • “Women’s sports [are] no longer a charity thing. No, you’re going because it’s exciting to watch.” (Michelle, [46:57])
• On Her Own Legacy
  • “At the end of the day, all I wanted to be was happy.” (Michelle, [48:30])

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction to Michelle’s Story: [02:05]
• Duality of Childhood—Cocky Golfer, Bullied Student: [05:01]
• Discussion of Breaking Barriers, Competing Against Men: [12:31–14:28]
• Sony Open & Missing the Cut: [15:15–17:29]
• Media Pressure and Death Threats: [19:46–20:06]
• Injury and Mental Health: [24:53–28:42]
• Explanation and Coping with The Yips: [28:49–31:27]
• Sexualization, Rudy Giuliani Incident: [31:35–36:41]
• 2014 US Women’s Open—Victory and Validation: [36:41–40:57]
• Retirement and Family Priorities: [42:59–44:07]
• Reflections on Parenting and Women’s Sports Today: [44:59–47:44]
• Closing Thoughts: What Michelle’s Child Self Would Think: [48:10–48:53]

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Tone and Style

Pablo and Michelle’s conversation is candid and relatable, marked by humor, vulnerability, and a shared curiosity for the “beyond-the-headlines” truth behind prodigy and fame. Michelle’s self-deprecation and honesty—about both triumphs and flaws—make the episode especially engaging and accessible.

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This summary aims to give listeners a rich, clear understanding of Michelle Wie West's journey—her pioneering moments, personal challenges, and present-day reflections—whether or not they've experienced the full episode.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[B]

I loved it. Yeah, I loved hitting it further than the guys and then seeing the faces that they would make right after this ad.

[A]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings. Michelle, it's good to have you here. You are making history on this show. You are the first pregnant guest, to my knowledge, at least to your knowledge. No one else has disclosed it. You have. And I appreciate you being here under the circumstances.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.

[A]

How many months?

[B]

Six or seven.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I lost track.

[A]

And you are feeling clearly good. Good enough to podcast today?

[B]

Yeah, I'm feeling large and not in charge mostly. You know, being pregnant in the summer is. I feel like a beached whale.

[A]

But you're a pro. You're a pro at this. This is number two.

[B]

This is number two. Yeah. The last time I was pregnant, I was pregnant during COVID so it was completely different. Life stopped for me and everyone else. So we were just inside chilling, you know, grateful that I had that experience. But also, you know, it's fun being outside in the world.

[A]

I am curious if you are already, if you are clearly in the mode of like, I'm a mom, I'm a full grown person, or whether you also see yourself in some way like the rest of the world, I think continues to demand that you acknowledge, which is as the kid that you used to be.

[B]

I know I feel like a kid raising a kid.

[A]

So the first thing I need you to know about Michelle we, who is now known as Michelle we west, is that I first found out about her back when she was the most famous kid in all of sports, when she was growing up golfing in Hawaii about 20 years ago now. And so I always presumed that I knew her story. And maybe you, like a whole lot of America, did as well. Because in a sense, the bottom line with Michelle is pretty simple. She was a female professional athlete who actually did what so many people proclaimed and still proclaim, by the way, to be impossible. She competed against men. And the craziest part about all of this, again, is that she did it when she was a child. But only recently, while I was watching a documentary about her career entitled Dream Big, which is over on Peacock, did I realize how many questions I had for Michelle. Only then did I realize how valuable her specific perspective is right now at this moment as a 34 year old mom. And it's not just because Michelle has watched and shaped the evolution of women's sports, which are suddenly finally booming. It's also because Michelle deserves another superlative, I would argue another superlative that can only be awarded decades later in the present. I think you are staggeringly, and this is both a compliment and an insult, I guess, to a version of you. You are the most normal former child star prodigy, I think, in the world. Is this a title that you've been bestowed before?

[B]

Honestly, it's something that I've, I've heard before. But I give a lot of that credit to my parents because, you know, even though I was a quote unquote, child prodigy, child star, they really put an effort in keeping my life normal. They didn't pull me out of school. I wasn't homeschooled when I turned pro when I was 16. They're like under a stipulation that you have to go to college probably because, you know, we're Asian and you know, academics is very important. But I was very grateful that my parents made it a priority that, you know, I needed to hang out with my friends. I needed to be a kid. Um, so I really felt like I grew up with this dual life where I was an adult very quickly. You know, I was, you know, competing against way older superhero women when I was 13, so I had to act older. And then when I was at school, I was just, you know, you know, the dumb kid that I usually am.

[A]

I do want to remind people what you were like as a child. Can you explain what the personality of a 10 year old, Michelle? We was like, in, in full, like honesty now, given that we have removed from, from your former self.

[B]

I felt like, literally I was fractured. My soul was fractured. I was this really cocky kid on the golf course. And then at the same time, when I was 10 years old, I entered a new school. I was heavily bullied at school. So like, I was super not confident, you know, awkward. I was very large as a kid as well too. Let me paint a picture for you. I was like 5, 7 and like 175 pounds when I was 10.

[A]

At age 10.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm glad you said it because that was. I'm about to.

[B]

And you're like, how do I, how do I bring this up?

[A]

Yeah, how do I point out that 10 year old Michelle, we was an absolute unit.

[B]

What's a unit and a half?

[A]

He's like yoked. I was watching video of you because of course, like already you were like on local news and stuff and I'm like, that was Michelle at 10?

[B]

Yeah. I was 5, 7, 175 pounds. I would hit the ball like 260. And no one believed I was 10 until I opened my mouth and I had the highest, squeakiest voice.

[A]

How do you keep the fun into the game?

[B]

Just not to think about anyone else, just to concentrate on their game, just to hit the ball. And if you reach the green and you're just too putt and par, par, then it really feels good. It was so fractured. Like, it was like the kid that ate lunch in the bathroom. Later I found out my best friend also ate lunch in the bathroom. And I was like, why didn't we just eat lunch together?

[A]

Right. What if we left our stalls. Stalls and joined at a table?

[B]

Exactly. I was like, it's like the stupidest realization that we had. 20, like, some years later.

[A]

In other words, the thing that felt like a superpower of sorts was also because you were bigger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The thing that made you incredibly lonely.

[B]

And that was like the crazy thing, you know, growing up in the spotlight and going through puberty in the spotlight and everything is that just want to hide from the world a lot of times. But then the half of me was like, so proud to show off what I could do, and I was just like this really cocky, arrogant kid. So it was like this really weird, fractured life that I had.

[A]

And I want to point out the arrogance because it's justified athletically. So the things that I need people to remember are that in the year 2000, at age 10, you become the youngest player to ever qualify for the United States Amateur Championship. Right. And so this is for context. Tiger won this on the men's side at age 18. You were 10?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And by age 12, just to keep us just in this, you know, again, prepubescent phase, he become the youngest player to ever qualify for an LPGA event. So now we're talking about the pros at age 12. And so when you look back on videos of yourself, if you ever do, I don't know if you do. What do you think when you see 10, 12 year old Michelle, like, in this child prodigy, the objective phase of a child prodigy?

[B]

I mean, first off, I had a damn good swing. I was so much looser back then. I was like, I'll never get back to that. But it was also like the Asian American immigrant mentality as well, too, because, you know, we're so frugal with our money that the reason why I qualified for the LPG event was that, you know, you also have to think a big part of this is me growing up in Hawaii, which we didn't have like a huge junior circuit, you know, And I, I pretty much won everything that I could. When I was 12, I won the biggest women's event in Hawaii by 13 strokes. So. And then I started playing in men's events in Hawaii because there's like, only so much you can do on the island. And like, I think it's like the frugal Asian American immigrant mentality was like, if my parents are buying a flight for us to go to the mainland, I might as well play in the highest quality, highest, you know, competence competitive tournament. I'm not just going to go over to the mainland to play in other junior events. I could do that in Hawaii also. I was too young to play in AJJ events. They didn't let me. So I was like, okay, I might as well qualify for the pro tournament. It'd be worth our money to go play in pro events versus amateur events. It made sense money wise.

[A]

I like how the same logic that leads Asian American parents to save plastic bags is the same reason why you were competing 100 against professionals and being like a global news story.

[B]

I bet you still have that drawer with like plastic bags and like the takeout chopsticks.

[A]

Yeah. The utensils, all that stuff.

[B]

Have you used a ketchup packet from that drawer before?

[A]

It's going to happen one day and my mom is going to be like, that's. That's why we do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I want to go back to acting to your parents here because my understanding is that golf for you, of course it would become this passion, but like, what was the order of operations in terms of how you first picked up a club and realized, oh, I can, as you put it, casually drive the ball to 60, which is, again, not normal.

[B]

I don't know why I had this realization as such a young kid, but I just, I wanted to be out there playing sports. And then I started with baseball, swimming, soccer, ballet, and I sucked at every single day.

[A]

How was ballet for you?

[B]

Awful. I was so. I had like heavy feet. I was a unit like you said. So they put me in the back, you know, like the way, way back. And with baseball, I was a great hitter. Like, I had really good, you know, hand eye coordination. And then they would put me in the back field because, you know, no one can hit it back there. And I remember this one kid walked up with a full on mustache and everyone's like, look alive, Michelle, look alive. They're like, I think playing with the flowers I was sitting on the ground, like, playing with the weed flowers. And they're like, look alive. Head up, Michelle. And balls coming straight at me. And I put my hands like this, because obviously you catch with, like, with two hands and leaving a big gaping hole. Hit me in the face. Baseball. Done with baseball. I was like, this is it. The only option I have to becoming a professional athlete is through golf. So I just kind of dove all the way in.

[A]

When did you realize you could crush a golf ball?

[B]

Pretty early, I think I beat my dad at golf, and he was a two handicap when I was like eight or nine.

[A]

Man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How did he take that?

[B]

Not great. I don't think my dad folds under pressure. So you just have to, like, put him under pressure a little bit, and he just folds.

[A]

Okay, so just on the subject of pressure here for a minute, because this is a through line in this episode, Michelle's parents were famously super involved with the career of their daughter. And in part, this is because Michelle, again, was this child playing against adults. But even more than that, the background of Michelle's parents sort of comprised a perfect formula for how to build the next great superstar. Because Michelle's mom, whose name is Bo, was a former Miss Korea who also happened to be an amateur golf champion. And Bo taught Michelle's dad, B.J. who's a professor specializing in statistics, how to play golf in the first place. All of which means that, yeah, they had a pretty high standard for their daughter.

[B]

Parents will have their children's year. You know your yearbook photo in your wallet, right? My dad had Tiger woods backswing in his wallet and did not have a picture of me. So when you opened up my dad's wallet and the clear thing that you put your kid's picture in was Tiger Wood's top swing.

[A]

I mean, admittedly, a beautiful photo.

[B]

Beautiful, beautiful.

[A]

But it explains, I mean, your swing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the thing that I want people to appreciate, too, is that when we talk about your swing, by 2003, ABC News headlines are reading stuff like, Girl golfer 13 out drives the men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you were hitting this thing 300 yards. More than that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the average. Just to get the. For the non golfers out there, the average dude is hitting the ball and at this point, less than 290 yards. The average woman at the time was 250. And you are, you know, hidden dingers.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was also, again, paint the picture for you. I was like 6ft tall at age 13. I was super lanky. And yeah, I just, I Hit the ball for miles.

[A]

She can blast a golf ball 300 yards off the tee. That's as far as the men, including Tiger Woods. Her swing was breathtaking. How much of that was what you loved about?

[B]

I loved it. Yeah. I loved hitting it further than the guys and then seeing the faces that they would make. And I don't know, it just. I think because I heard so many times, like, why are you doing this? You can't do this. And I was just like, why not? The question that I had all the time was, why not? Why shouldn't we? It doesn't say, you know, male Professional Golf Association. It just says Professional Golf Association. Like, why couldn't we? You know? And I think that was the mindset that I just had.

[A]

So age 13, it's 03 now. You become the youngest player to ever make a cut at an LPGA event. It's the Craft Nabisco Championship. You finish ninth. Later that summer, you make the cut at the US Women's Open. Youngest person to ever do that. And so as all of these quotes and these headlines are circulating, and now, like, the Tiger woods comparisons are being said by people who are not your dad. Yeah, like, this is everywhere.

[B]

Michelle Lee now begins a career that is said to mirror the world's number one golfer, Tiger Woods.

[A]

Ernie Ells is saying, I don't think I've ever seen a lady golfer swing the club as good as Michelle does. I saw Tiger before he turned pro. I think, Michelle, a lot of what you did today reminds me a lot of what Tiger used to do as a woman golfer. She's going to take it to the next level. And so the question then becomes what you were just articulating, which is how would she do against the men? And to you, that was intimidating or. No. What was your view on that?

[B]

Not really, but because I think the. The fact that I grew up in Hawaii was, like, a big part of it because the PGA Tour event Sony Open was 10 minutes from our house. I'm really happy to be out there, but I'm really nervous that I might mess up. But I just. I'm getting really anxious to get out there.

[A]

And just on the T. From Honolulu, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Michelle. We age 14. 2004, the Sony Open in Hawaii. Something that I. I realized in my research as I tried to find out everything I can about this, is that you literally had to go out and wear the pants.

[B]

Yeah, you have to wear long pants to compete. That's just, like, part of the dress code. And obviously growing up in Hawaii. I don't think I've ever like owned a pair of long pants in my life. And so I got pants made and. Yeah, and then, then belts became a thing. You know, Anthony Kim wore the big, you know, logo belt, so I had to wear the big logo belt.

[A]

Charlie, can you imagine being on the high school golf team? Another 14 year old girl playing against her. Pretty intimidating.

[B]

I don't know if I would have done it knowing what I know now and like going back and doing it. But like, I'm really glad that I did because that is a experience that I could never forget. You know, being on the range with Ernie Ailes, Tom Lehman, you know, Retief Goosen, Vijay Singh and just playing balls next to them, being in the field with them. I got to play with my superheroes when I was a kid.

[A]

Had a lot of putts of this length. Yesterday we saw her have about 10 putts over 45ft. Look at this. Made it.

[B]

I think I shot like two over on the first day, which I was like, you know, pretty proud of myself. The next day was pretty crazy when I shot 68, when I shot two under.

[A]

Oh, goodness sakes. Instant replay from the seven.

[B]

And I remember making like a 12 footer downhill slider right to left and did this huge like fist bump pump because I was one over par. Got to even par and usually the cut is even par. I got off the green like fist pumping like, you know, like I did it, I made the cut. And then I remember my mom's face, like she wasn't like really smiling like, you know, because I was expecting like a bigger reaction and I was like, oh, like, what happened? And she's like, the cuts went under.

[A]

And I'm like, missed it by one. But you got to be so proud of what you did and what you accomplished this week.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was very proud of myself. I played awesome today. So just one shot better and I could have made it. And it's killing me right now, but I think I played very good today. I mean, the fact that I shot 68, I'm extremely proud of myself. But it was like, you know, it's just like, what if I did make the cut? You know, and that's like the thing with my career. I feel like I've had like so many what ifs that, you know, at the end of the day like hurts me inside. But, you know, I'm still proud of everything that I've accomplished.

[A]

Right. I just want to set the context here because you shoot a 68, which is a ridiculous thing for a 14 year old girl to do at a PGA Tour event. You beat 47 adult men. You are better than seven major winners. Like all of this is true. What's the part of that experience that maybe most people don't realize but you sort of remember vividly or that you found interesting that maybe isn't the most obvious part of like what it's like to live the movie scene that people are assuming is actually impossible.

[B]

There's so much more writing on this than you just shooting a low number. It's the whole woman versus men conversation. It's the I told you so people. It's the people that you have to prove wrong. There's so much more than just going out there and doing it for yourself.

[A]

That debate, how, how loud was it?

[B]

It was loud.

[A]

You think she could conceivably play and make a living on the men's tour if she continues at the present rate?

[B]

I'd say yes, it was very loud. And I think that's the reason why I kept playing in men's events. It was like, okay, this is not just about myself. This is like I'm representing the women that are being told you can't do that. Like, I want to be the voice for those people, for those, you know, women that are older than me, that are younger than me, and show them that you can. Anytime, you know, a woman tries to do anything that a guy does, I feel like it always brings controversy and you know, especially, you know, women crossing over into the men's sports league or doing something that you shouldn't be doing. I think also adults have a very strong opinion of what children should be doing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, stay in your path. Do A to get to B to get to C. And I went to, you know, all the way to Z when I was 14. So I think people just have, you know, different thoughts on it.

[A]

Commercial failure would be one thing, but the effect of such exposure at such an early age is a concern many outside outsiders have leveled.

[B]

At Michelle's parents, my parents, we got a lot of death threats.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. You know, it was like a serious thing. Like people had very strong opinions of what I should and shouldn't be doing.

[A]

Wow. I, I like how out of all of that, what you took away was a very Asian American thing of like this B plus. I got really, really feels like an F. Yeah. Like missing the cut was the thing that you're. You do all this stuff.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You exceed you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You proved to everybody that this Was not a stunt. You could do it. And you're like, yeah, I didn't get.

[B]

The A. I think the craziest thing that people don't really talk about or know is that I was two matches away from playing the Masters when I was 15 years old.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, that is, like, actually mind blowing to me that, like, that could have happened. Like, people would have lost their damn minds.

[A]

I keep on trying to imagine how this would have played if it was happening in the modern era.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, the Internet.

[B]

I think about that a lot too.

[A]

Because I don't think you would be sitting across from me like normal and smiling and a capable head of a household.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think your alternate timeline might have been if this was happening online?

[B]

I don't know. I think about that a lot because, you know, this all happened early 2000s, you know, we were still in the dial up phase, you know, where there was no Instagram, Twitter, no social media. I mean, so I, My parents could have shielded me and they were able to. And now, you know, you do any of that stuff, it's impossible. And people would have. I would have read people's comments about myself and like, you can't. You just can't avoid it now. I think about these kids all the time. You know, what Caitlin Clark is going through, Angel Reese, all these young kids growing up in the spotlight. It is just so different.

[A]

So you wind up then at Stanford and look, this is where Tiger went. This is, you know, Stanford now is very famous for incubating, like, really good golfers. But at the time, it sounds like what you enjoyed was that people didn't give a. About golf.

[B]

Yeah, no, I, I went to Stanford, didn't play on the golf team. And I guess what the athletes called us, they called us civilians, people that didn't play sports. And I went in the Andrew Luck era. So everyone didn't care about me. Everyone cared about Andrew Luck. And, you know, I was a normal student on campus and it was the best, you know, four and a half years of my life, of my young lifeh being a real student. And again, you know, the fractured life, you know, the double life I was living, you know, I was playing a full schedule on the LPGA tour, but also taking the maximum number of units.

[A]

How does one do that?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know how I did that.

[A]

Because I don't think Stanford is known for, like, compromising on course load when it comes to. Yeah, certainly a civilian, let alone exactly one of the college Athletes that are.

[B]

I mean, there were times where I definitely acted like I was part of the NCAA program. Yeah. I have to go for a golf tournament. You know, I didn't, you know, I didn't clarify that. It wasn't with the team.

[A]

Right. Yeah. I'm a professional now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to play professional women's golf.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While also taking this final.

[B]

A lot of times I could take the final on the road, but I had to take the same time as him. So one time I was in Dubai and I had to take a three hour stats exam at 2am in the morning and my tea time was at 7:30. So there was like a lot of that going on. I don't know how I did it, honestly, like the class load that I had. And you know, I was partaking in extracurricular activities as well too. It's the one that I wasn't just like playing golf and in the library.

[A]

What were the, what, what was your favorite extracurricular that was not golf or library?

[B]

Well, you know, things that college students do.

[A]

Noted.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. For those who are not watching on YouTube of the Japanese network, Michelle, we is executing the clumsiest wink ever performed on a sports podcast.

[B]

I'm just so smooth. You can, you can just see how my childhood went.

[A]

Your sense though of perfectionism, of like how that works. Because clearly like on one side of this, you are a person with incredibly high standards. And this all makes sense to me. But also as golf gets harder, as being a pro gets harder, let alone the balancing act of all of this, it kind of felt to me. I remember. So I'm four or five years older than you. I remember monitoring like your story as you like go through life and I go back and revisit it now and I'm like, oh, Michelle, we around this time went from like child prodigy underdog to kind of like star person that people are saying overhyped.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You become like a Goliath as well as also this David, which is a fascinating thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

While you're again, not even an adult yet.

[B]

Yeah, I went through like the biggest slump of my life, was actually on a visit to Stanford. Ended up working with the golf team, did some workouts that I did with my trainer. Again, the most unathletic human. I should not be working out unsupervised. And I remember doing like a backward run and I fell on my hand and I broke three bones in my hand when I was 17. So this is like a year after I turned pro over the Biggest like, hyped event ever. Everyone's saying, I'm gonna start with whatever. And I went through like the two toughest years. I couldn't break 80.

[A]

It was a struggle from the get go for Michelle, who wanted desperately to get back into action.

[B]

I'm just like really trying to like, enjoy it. So it is tough, but, you know, just, it's awesome being out here. I came back from my injury way too quick with taking way too many painkillers to go out and play. And it just, it ruined me mentally, emotionally, physically, and it was really tough. But then having that like, double life, I was also having the best four years of my life versus the worst years on the golf course. So it saved me emotionally so much and mentally being able to escape that and, you know, go back to college and be that normal person.

[A]

I want to talk about your, your injury though. When you fall backwards and you're breaking. You know, I'm told that the wrist, hands are important to golf.

[B]

Very.

[A]

How did you have that treated at the time? What was like the process?

[B]

Yeah, you know, back in the day, the technology wasn't there. I, my, it was, you know, my parents have never raised a professional athlete. I've never been a professional athlete before. I didn't know there was this thing called the orthopedic surgeon. So I went to a pediatrician, like, I went to like an internal medicine.

[A]

Wait, you went to your pediatrician?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To, as a professional golfer to address your broken.

[B]

Yeah. And they put it in a cast and I got out of it too soon. And then I tried hitting golf balls and I fractured it further. So I just was like this like never ending cycle of me doing the wrong thing. And now I'm creating arthritis. And this is like, you know, the media is asking me what's going on. I don't know what's going on. And like, it's seemingly like I'm, you know, avoiding questions, which I'm like, really not.

[A]

I remember this.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like, I literally don't know. Like I, I don't know how to describe this. So like, you know, it was really bad. It was, you know, it was hard.

[A]

You know, I was going back and looking through like the newspaper accounts of, of this. Because you were withdrawing from tournaments.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You were at one point. It was the US Open in 07. You had to hold back tears, according to this article, because one fan shouted, play through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just like the idea of they, they thought you were being a wimp when in fact it sounds like the, the opposite was happening. You were trying to do, if anything, like too much.

[B]

Yeah, but that was like the whole, you know, this is the mental health topic nowadays. You know, back in the day, you, you were a wimp if you withdrew, if you, you know, showed pain, if you talked about your injury. So in the, in the, you know, when I reported asking like, I'm fine, I'm fine. So then obviously when I'm withdrawing, I could, I can see why people were like, oh, this is a fake, this is blah, blah, blah. Because you didn't want to admit, you didn't want to admit that you were hurting. And that's why I'm so happy the mental health conversations are happening now. Because, you know, you don't have to be perceived as this mentally perfect person to be a strong athlete. You can be vulnerable and also be a strong athlete. Whereas back in the day, if you showed any sort of weakness whatsoever, you're not the best in the world. You're not, you know, so and so, so it was, it was a different era for sure.

[A]

I mean, golf is also famous for being psychologically something of a torture chamber.

[B]

100. Yeah.

[A]

How were the yips Awful how, how you, you suffered from them?

[B]

Oh yeah. I had the putting gifts three times in my career and it's like the wild, the yips are the wildest thing.

[A]

How would you explain it for people who have not had them?

[B]

It's like, okay, you brush your teeth every single day and all of a sudden you go to brush your teeth and you don't know how to hold the toothbrush. You're like, am I holding it like this? Am I like that? Like what, do I go up and down? Do I do it in circles? And now you're just like overthinking it where you get to the point where the toothbrush enters your mouth and you're just like, I don't know what to do. And you just black out. And I remember just like standing over a six inch putt and completely just blacking out. Like, you know when your hands get cold and clammy and they just start shaking and I'm like, this is the easiest thing to do in the world.

[A]

You've been doing it in public since you were 10.

[B]

Exactly. And all of a sudden like, I was like, am I going to chunk this? Am I going to whiff this? How do I do this? How? You know, and it, it was, it's awful.

[A]

That's, that sounds terrifying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you try and cure yourself of, of what sounds like an outof body experience, you know, it's so hard.

[B]

Because when you practice with the gipsy, practice, you're fine. Practice, you're making every single putt. You don't feel nervous at all. And literally, the second you step on a golf course in a tournament, that's when it begins. Because it's not. There's nothing to do with physicals, nothing to do with your skill level.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's just, you know, in your brain. And I went to the tabletop position. I.

[A]

We got to explain the tabletop position.

[B]

The last time I got the yips, I had an awful putting season, but made to the Tour Championship, I was playing in the last, you know, term of the year, was missing everything. Played with a really short player. She was probably like five foot one, making everything. And I was like, you know what? I know why I can't putt. I'm too tall. It's just pure physics.

[A]

This unit is too absolute.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do I fix this part?

[B]

Exactly. I need to be shorter. So in the middle of the round, I just bent down a lot further than I should have, and I was like, wow, I actually feel really good. I'm shorter now. The ball looks bigger, the hole looks bigger. Everything looks closer. I think also when you're, like, in the gifts, everything just feels so forward and far away that I just need to bring everything closer to my body. It was like, you know, I had to bring it in. So, yeah, I started making everything, you know, and then after I was done with the tournament, people started asking my putting, you know, putting stance. I was like, yeah, I'm just, you know, a little bent over. What's a big deal? Saw a picture of myself. I'm literally at 90 degrees. What the hell?

[A]

Yeah. You became famous now also.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For this. Yes. For somebody who was trying something radically different to try and get back to a comfort zone that once used to be your safe space.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, people sexualized it, which, you know, sucked.

[A]

Can we. Can we talk about that for a second here? Because I don't know if we've had a guest who has been, I guess, remotely harassed by Rudy Giuliani.

[B]

Remotely? Yeah.

[A]

He was 2014, I believe you're playing at a charity event. I don't know if you recognize that in the gallery somewhere or maybe even playing was Rudy Giuliani.

[B]

I played with him.

[A]

Oh, he was in here.

[B]

So the funny, the crazy part about that was that it was for a charity event and in town, and I wasn't playing in it. I Wasn't planning on playing it. Someone had withdrew last minute. And it was my friend that was, you know, putting the events together and was like, hey, big favor. Can you just come in and play? And it was Rudy Giuliani, Rush Limbaugh, and I forgot who the third person was. And I'm like, oh, my God, what.

[A]

An incredible mad lib from hell.

[B]

Yeah. We ended up winning the event, too. I shot, like, 64.

[A]

Of course, you were gonna put them on your back. You're gonna carry them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Rudy Giuliani, years later, goes on, of course, and this is just, again, the mad lib. He goes on Steve Bannon's show. So on the green is Michelle Williams, who's getting ready to putt. And he talks about how, you know, he was focusing on your underwear. Now, Michelle, we is gorgeous. She's 6ft, and she has a strange putting stance. She bends all the way over and her panties show. And the press was going crazy. They were following her all around because they were trying to take pictures of her panties. I said, roger, it's not me. It's not you. Is that okay to tell that joke? I'm not sure. We already told it, so I don't know. But I found unfortunate about that, beyond the obvious is like, now you're just making this person have to respond to this.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And you took time to, like, articulate the most obvious concern, but clearly something that needed to be stated.

[B]

We actually played together, like, five, six years ago, and I completely forgot about it. Right. And then, you know, woke up to, like, a bunch of dms being like, blah, blah, Ruji. I was like, what? What's going on? And actually saw the clip, and I was like, this for real? Like, what? Like, all I remember from that day was, you know, we had an enjoyable day. We had won by a landslide, and everyone was happy. And I was like, this is horseshit. I'm like a. We wear shorts under our skirts. It's a very common thing. And it's just, like, so annoying because I did wear short skirts, but that was, like, a athletic reason. I don't like having fabric around my lower part of my leg. Like, it's just, like, very simple.

[A]

You're from Hawaii.

[B]

Yeah. And it just, like, pissed me off. And, you know, usually I would not respond. I would not respond. You know, I was always the type of person, you know, I think also the Asian American thing, just don't respond. It's not worth it. Don't make wa. You know, don't cause trouble. And I Wasn't going to, you know, And I think that that time, you know, I either had my daughter, I was going to have my daughter. And I knew that was a girl. And I was like, this is. I have to say something for the sake of my daughter and for other girls out there. So my husband actually helped me write the right. The rebuttal. It obviously looked very different than the.

[A]

First draft, I would imagine. I would imagine. In a post on Twitter, we says, it's unsettling to hear of this highly inappropriate story shared on a podcast by a public figure referencing my panties whilst playing at a charity pro Am. I shudder. Thinking that he was smiling to my face and complimenting me on my game while objectifying me and referencing my panties behind my back all day.

[B]

I was proud of myself for saying something, because I historically wouldn't have.

[A]

But that whole story, which was from 2014, was symptomatic of another even larger problem that she was facing that year, the year that she played in that charity event with Rudy Giuliani. Because in 2014, Michelle. We was not attracting attention so much for how good she was at golf, for winning tournaments. And that was in large part because Michelle was 25 years old and no longer a child prodigy, and she was choking and putting weird and withdrawing from all of these events mysteriously. And she still had not won a major tournament, even though it seemed like she had been around forever. You get finally to this point where people are saying, like, it's never gonna happen for her. Yeah, like she's never gonna win a major. And in 2014, it's the US Women's Open at Pinehurst. And what is your memory of that weekend?

[B]

Honestly, it was so amazing, but also so unique because it was back to. Back to the men. So for the first time in history, and they haven't done it since the men played the week before we did. So usually when you get there on a Sunday, tournament starts on a Thursday. You just take day on Sunday, you know, start doing practice rounds on Monday. On Sunday actually followed Ricky Fowler and Martin Kimer and the final group and just was a spectator, walked inside the ropes for the. I think for all 18 or most of it. And it just put me in this headspace, you know, seeing the crowds, seeing Martin Kmer just destroy the golf course.

[A]

Listen to this walk up here. Martin, Kirk.

[B]

And I remember going up to 18, you know, seeing Martin Kmer wave to the crowd, and it kind of just like pulled me out of. You know, I was already having a good year, you know, so everyone was Putting pressure on me. But it just kind of put me out of that and into the shoes of like a fan and, you know, back to that little girl looking at someone, being like, I want to be that person. And it just put me in a really good mindset from the get go.

[A]

Very important shot for Michelle. Pretty crisp, pretty good looking shot and a terrific result. What a beautiful shot by Michelle Lee.

[B]

And I was just having a blast.

[A]

Michelle lee opens at four, Charlene with an eagle three at 10. That is a statement maker there.

[B]

And being at Pinehurst, I just was like at awe the whole week, you know, just memories of Payne Stewart and of everyone that has played that event before. And it kind of just took me out of my own little bubble, own little world, my own little sympathy party. And I just going out there as.

[A]

A fan and how about that for a one point, Michelle? We back up by two with one left. We saw the fist pump after the eagle at 10. This one was a bit more demonstrative. The part that I remember, the part that stuck out to me is I was like, I watched the video of your walk up 18 and that walk up 18 for people who again, are not fluent in golf. So it's sort of like the victory lap before the victory. What was your sense? What was going through your head as you are taking this walk that finally feels like this thing you had been fighting for since, again, you were 10.

[B]

Yeah, I never wanted to end. It's one of those walks that's like, you know, like the walk down the aisle, the walk, you know, like these memorable walks that you have in your life and you're like, it's too short. I never want it to end. Like, this is amazing. I can see my parents in the crowd. You know, some of my friends had flown in that day. And also a crazy part of it was, you know, I was really close to this. These bands in Hawaii, you know, Irish and the Green, and they were touring somewhere close and they had come in buses and it's a really funny picture. You know, imagine the Carolina is like a really uppity, you know, resort and these reggae bands with their trucks and you know, all obviously like puffs of smoke coming out of it. Just like pulled up to Pinehurst and everyone's wearing aloha shirts and big shaka signs. And just to see all my friends and my family in the field and people from Hawaii there, it just was so special. And the fact that there was no pressure, right? I mean, I could three putt and still win. It was just it was amazing.

[A]

What a way to break through for Michelle. We at Pinehurst. Her first major championship is the US Women's Open. It felt like with all of that, the smoke, the bands, the Asian faces, it felt like. It was like here was the revolution that had been promised if you. You got to actually have this perfect day.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Where it came real.

[B]

It was a perfect day.

[A]

Michelle, congratulations.

[B]

It's a high that I will probably never feel again. It's, you know, it's like a drug. You go out there, and that's the high. That's. That's the thing that you chase after.

[A]

When you think back. And you mentioned, like, the. Almost the what ifs, just some of the. Some of the stuff about, like, what you did that is now underrated because it got overshadowed by next. Tiger woods again among women all time leader in eight PGA Tour events played that second round. 68 at the Sony Open in 04. Still the lowest score ever shot by a woman at a PGA Tour. Eventually, on top of, like, the LPGA stuff that you accomplished, which is just, like, better than you realize, but this is 20 years in the spotlight. I'm curious. When you run into Tiger woods, what do you talk about? Is there any sort of connectivity between the two of you on the level of, like, being people who grew up young in the spotlight and had to navigate all of this stuff?

[B]

No. But every time I see Tiger, the first thing that we go through is the list of injuries that we have. I'm like, how's your neck? He's like, how's your wrist? How's your back? We have to, like, go through all the body parts first, be like, okay, good, good, good. Getting better, you know, and then we can have a normal conversation. But it's like, always the first five minutes of, like, going through all the ailing body parts on our body.

[A]

Right, right. I mean, I think about your decision to. To step away from golf and the idea of, I'm going to retire on my own terms as, again, Tiger. And I love that Tiger is still out there trying. I do. But your logic internally for this is why I'm gonna. I'm gonna stop playing professionally at this level. Was what. What was your thinking?

[B]

Well, there's a lot of things, you know, first off, you know, with my injury, so I was in a car accident, 2016, which, you know, wasn't really talked about. We had really bad neck injury from there. So I have, like, you know, nerve damage and nerve pain down my right arm. So I just physically, you know, can't play that much. And if I do play, I have to spend all my days in rehab. You know, obviously, having a young child, I didn't, you know, want to miss that. I didn't want to be in rehab for seven hours a day to not see my kid and all of a sudden look back at him and have that regret. Right. You know, I don't think you'll ever have a regret of spending more time with your kids. That's, like, the one thing. And with my husband's, like, travel schedule, when I did come back on tour, he didn't see her for two months. And I just thought it wasn't fair for me or him to have to make that decision. So I was very happy with, you know, the amount that I played. Obviously, I wanted to play more. You know, I wanted to achieve things with her watching me, but I felt like it was more important for me just to be with her and, you know, try to make an impact on the game outside of playing.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I will say, just. It feels good. Crazy to me with the remove of now decades to look back and be like, I don't know if Michelle, we did enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like you crammed so much into. Truly, like, more than any female athlete has from age 10.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Until, you know, the present. But you. You mentioned that your husband, Johnny west, executive of the Golden State Warrior, son of the late, great Jerry West. Of course you have a daughter, McKenna. And here with us today is. What do we know, baby boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How does your experience through all of this sort of, like, shape your sense of now? Okay, I have one of each. What is Michelle. We now the parent. Like, what. What are you gonna be like now with the second kid?

[B]

I know it's. It's gonna be different. I mean, you know, Our daughter is 4, and she's, like, really into sports. And I'm like, don't be a Tiger mom. Don't be a Tiger mom. But I'm, like, already, like, signed up lessons on Saturday. She does, like, tennis four times a week, golf once a week. And, you know, moved her up at age group age, you know, and of course, like, damn, like, don't do the things. But I am doing exactly what my parents are doing, and it's hard. You become your parents.

[A]

Yeah. Actually a Tiger mom. Insofar as you also have a picture of Tiger woods in your wallet.

[B]

Negative.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That would just be weird at this point. But, yeah, I think, you know, just definitely sports runs deep in our family. Both our family. I don't know I mean, I guess. I mean, if she wanted to play cello or something, I wouldn't have no idea about it and I would have to learn about it. So, like, I think we gravitate definitely towards sports.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And she is very athletic.

[A]

I mean, again, insofar as, like, you could create another one of you, I feel like you've picked a good. A good genetic code to. To combine with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What goes through your. Your head as you sort of see now that, like, women's sports is in this now. I mean, formerly unfathomable place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where there is attention, there is money, there's an economy. Caitlin Clark is just the latest name, but the biggest one in women's basketball as a lot of the debates that you were a protagonist in are being replayed and they're mutating, and now it's all on the Internet. What goes through your head as you see people going through this in now. This new but old way?

[B]

Yeah, no, I love it. I love that boundaries are being pushed. You know, people aren't saying women's sports is a charity act. You know, I. I hate it. It's my pet peeve. Like, oh, we have to go support the Liberty. No, you're going to see the Liberty because it's exciting. You're going to see Katon Clark because she's exciting to watch. You're seeing, you know, the whole Angel Reese, Caitlin Clark thing play out because it's entertaining.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Women's sports no longer a charity thing. And I love that, you know, you know, Don Staley fighting for equal pay. Like, it's just. It's amazing. It's amazing what these female athletes are doing now on a very public platform. I give them a lot of kudos because it's a. It's a lot of weight on their shoulders.

[A]

And it feels like now you're realizing the power of. Oh, what it's actually like when you have a spectacle that's justified on the level of. Of not just. Yeah. Social obligation, but, like. No. Some cool crazy happening here.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I went to the Liberty FIFA game here when the. The game opener, and it was insane to see Barclays. It felt like a playoff, NBA championship crowd.

[A]

I mean, totally.

[B]

And, you know, usually in NBA games, if there's a blowout, you start to see people, you know, file out at the, you know, middle of fourth quarter and, you know, the fever unfortunately got, you know, blown out by the Liberty, but everyone stayed in their seats. Like, I would say 90 of the people stayed until the very end. And that just says so much, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Because they want to see the end of it. They just want to see them play. And I just. I felt so proud in that moment.

[A]

At the end here I'm curious what 10 year old Michelle we, absolute unit, but also eating lunch alone, crushing the golf ball. If she could look into a crystal ball and see what would happen to her, what do you think she would think about what has become of you?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be a mix of disappointment and joy, but at the end of the day, I love how my life turned out. I love our family. I think that's like the most important thing to me is just like how happy I am on a daily basis and, you know, being able to spend time with my family and have that, you know, greatness, you know, within our family, it just. It just makes me so happy. And at the end of the day, all I wanted to be was happy.

[A]

Yeah. Shall we? The most normal child prodigy and maybe the happiest that I've ever met. Thank you for taking the time.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

This has been Pablo Torre FINDS Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time. Sam.