How to Fight the Cheapest Owner in American Sports

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Episode: How to Fight the Cheapest Owner in American Sports
Date: June 6, 2024
Host: Pablo Torre (with reporting by Joel Anderson)
Main Theme: An investigative, story-driven journey into the Oakland Athletics’ ongoing ownership debacle—how John Fisher, widely considered Major League Baseball’s “cheapest” owner, has alienated fans, led to protest movements like the “reverse boycott,” and may soon move the A’s from Oakland to Las Vegas. The episode explores protest culture, fan resistance, and the emotional cost of losing a beloved sports team.

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Episode Overview

• Purpose:
  The episode dives deep into the saga of the Oakland Athletics under owner John Fisher—a billionaire accused of under-investment, neglect, and an impending relocation of the team to Las Vegas. Pablo Torre tasks acclaimed podcaster/report Joel Anderson (a Bay Area local) to uncover whether the notorious fan “reverse boycott” and rumors of player punishment (aka “wristband-gate”) are truly making a difference, or are a lost cause in modern sports capitalism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Oakland A’s Reverse Boycott

• Background:
  With owner John Fisher threatening to move the A’s from Oakland, fans staged a “reverse boycott”—packing the usually empty Oakland Coliseum to spend money as a protest, rather than withholding it (01:21-01:38).
• Goal:
  To draw attention and shame Fisher and MLB for abandoning a loyal, embattled fanbase that’s already lost the Raiders and Warriors (01:40-02:30).

2. John Fisher: Nepotism, Anonymity, and Cheapness

• Owner Profile:
  • Son of Gap founder, inherited wealth (“Nepobaby”)
    “He failed up. …The way they got involved in pro sports is when John convinced his dad to buy an interest in the Giants.” – Joel Anderson (10:55)
  • Avoids media, extremely reclusive (10:04)
  • Has a reputation for being the most aloof and careless owner in baseball (09:45)
• Operational Approach:
  • Has not invested in payroll or stadium upkeep—last in MLB by payroll (09:28-09:55)
  • Infamously cut $400 weekly minor-league player stipends during the pandemic, only to backpedal under public pressure (16:24-16:59)
  • Ownership story highlights the “failing upward” inherited privilege endemic in sports ownership (10:55-11:44)

3. Fan Resistance: The Last Dive Bar and Protest Culture

• The Last Dive Bar:
  • A superfan collective leading the charge against Fisher, named after a NYT description of the Coliseum as “baseball’s last dive bar.”
    “It just says, baseball's last dive bar, Oakland Coliseum. …the minute we dropped that, it went nuts.” – Brian Johansson (25:41)
  • Not an actual bar, but a fan group making banners, wristbands, and radical merch (26:12-26:21)
• Community:
  • Diehard fans like Brian Johansson become quasi-celebrities in the near-empty stadium (31:06)
  • Fans bring their own food to games to avoid giving Fisher more money—“BYO Burrito” protest (29:46-30:35)

4. Player Involvement & Wristband-Gate

• Wristbands:
  • “I Stand with Oakland” and “Last Dive Bar” merch, surreptitiously worn by four A’s players (04:11-04:47)
• Rumors:
  • Speculation that these players were punished (benched, released, traded, demoted) as retaliation for siding with fans (04:53-06:28)
• The Investigation:
  • Through interviews with players, translations, and statements, Joel Anderson reports that actual evidence for targeted punishment is dubious. Players like Brent Rooker deny repercussions (40:35-41:24).
  • Official statement (41:24):
    “The suggestion that we would move players based on their opinions of a fan group is absurd. Winning games at this level is hard enough without worrying about who's wearing a wristband.” – A’s GM David Forst

5. The Coliseum Experience: Protest in Practice

• The Stadium:
  • Fans and even former players (Bruce Maxwell, first MLB player to kneel with Kaepernick) describe the stadium as dilapidated and actively hostile—sewage smells, crumbling facilities (19:57-21:15)
  • “The septic issue is probably… the most notable thing about being on the field as a player. …You can smell the sewage through the vents in the dugout, and it’s there for days on end.” – Bruce Maxwell (19:57)
• Reverse Boycott in Action:
  • Joel attends a game with Brian (Last Dive Bar) and experiences the protest first hand: makeshift camaraderie, bringing outside food, “cell flags,” and mutual suspicion of any team action as malicious.
  • “Clearly this is a family network, correct?” (25:19) – riff on the raw emotion at play.

6. The Failed Oakland Stadium Deal

• Failed Redevelopment:
  • Multiple attempts at new stadiums (notably Howard Terminal) fell through—Fisher unwilling to close a $97M gap despite his billions (27:33-28:02)
  • Fisher’s refusal to invest became the final straw for many, sparking vitriol and direct action.

7. Why Protest? Why Stay?

• Hopeless Optimism:
  • Even as fans realize their efforts probably won’t save the team, they view protest as essential.
    “Sometimes you just protest because you’re mad. …Often, I would say, when you do go out to protest, you kind of accept the fact that you don’t know if you’re going to win.” – Joel Anderson (44:46)
  • The looming move to Vegas is both heartbreak and cautionary tale.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fan Loyalty:
  “I haven’t come across a franchise or a fan base that is more connected than this one, even though things are pretty damn terrible right now.” – Joel Anderson (03:26)
• On Ownership:
  “Dork Fisher refuses to spend on players, perpetually sitting out free agency… He refuses to upgrade the stadium, perhaps obviously… John Fisher can’t really read the room, and then he blames the room for being empty.” – Pablo Torre (15:52)
• On the Coliseum:
  “You can smell the sewage through the vents in the dugout, and it’s there for days on end. …It’s kind of degrading, honestly.” – Bruce Maxwell (19:57-20:39)
• On the Stadium Stalemate:
  “A guy worth $3 billion can’t sit there and just pay the $97 million… They do not want to spend their money and they’re billionaires and the fans don’t benefit.” – Brian Johansson (28:02)
• On Protest’s Broader Message:
  “If Major League Baseball would treat us like this, in spite of our loyalty and the culture and the history of this franchise here in this town… It could definitely be you.” – Joel Anderson (45:55)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:21: The “reverse boycott” explained; fans protest by showing up, not staying home
• 04:11-06:28: Wristband-gate: fan-player alliance and rumors of retribution
• 09:28: The A’s historically rock-bottom payroll
• 16:24: Fisher’s minor-league stipend controversy during the pandemic
• 19:57-21:15: Bruce Maxwell describes the dire stadium conditions (“septic issue”)
• 25:41: How “The Last Dive Bar” fan group began; NYT reference
• 27:33-28:20: Oakland’s failed Howard Terminal stadium deal—the $97M gap
• 29:46-30:35: Protest tactics: BYO burritos instead of concessions
• 31:06: Superfan Brian’s celebrity status at A’s games
• 41:24: A’s respond officially: “absurd” to think they’ve punished wristband-wearing players
• 44:46: Why protest when victory is unlikely?

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Conclusion

The episode paints a vivid, empathetic portrait of Oakland A’s fandom under siege—caught between a miserly owner, MLB indifference, and the grief of likely losing their team. Amid rumor, failed activism, and relentless neglect, Joel Anderson and Pablo Torre explore whether protest can comfort, if not transform, a fanbase on the brink. The message is both local and universal: loyal communities can be shattered by remote, profit-driven ownership, and fighting back, even in vain, still has meaning.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Joel Anderson]

Why would they want to give their hard earned money to John Fisher? Nepo, baby.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad, you're listening to DraftKings. So one of the great pleasures I have hosting this show is that I get to assign absurdly accomplished people to do my bidding. And so, Joel Anderson, one of the truly one of the greatest podcasters in America. A real superlative that is backed up by awards. Joel. That's right. Don't sarcastically nod. It's real.

[Joel Anderson]

It's true. I mean, you know, I don't like to talk about it often, but I did have the best podcast in America last year. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so Joel Anderson, if you did not know, is a writer for Slate.com and the host of the trophy winning podcast series Slow Burn Becoming Justice Thomas. But the other thing to know about Joel is that he lives in the Bay Area, meaning that a big story that I've been monitoring from across the country is, for him, decidedly local. 27,759.

[Brian Johansson]

That's how many fans packed to the.

[Pablo Torre]

Coliseum on a regular Tuesday night to show their support for keeping the A's in Oakland. Instead of a boycott, they called it a reverse boycott. And if their goal was to get.

[Brian Johansson]

Attention, then by all accounts, it worked.

[Bruce Maxwell]

The crowd go silent and now getting.

[Pablo Torre]

Very loud at the Coliseum. And I just need you to wrap your head around the concept of these reverse boycotts here because typically when you want to protest something, you refuse to give it money or pay for tickets. But in Oakland with the A's, what fans have been protesting is the team's billionaire owner, John Fisher, who has been threatening to move the team to Sacramento and eventually Las Vegas because the money Oakland has been spending apparently isn't enough. And when John Fisher was asked directly to address these locals, these customers, who have recently also seen their Raiders move to Vegas and their warriors move to San Francisco, John Fisher's bedside manner, let's say, wasn't great.

[Joel Anderson]

What's your message to Bay. Bay Area fans who are.

[Pablo Torre]

Who can't be happy about losing a baseball team?

[Joel Anderson]

The message for them, you know, I mean, I grew up in the Bay Area. I started out as a Giants fan before we bought the A's. I, you know, there's, there's no words that I can say that are going to make people at home who are really upset about the team leaving feel better about the team or about me.

[Pablo Torre]

But the city of Oakland has not yet given up this season, the reverse boycotters have only continued to organize. And most stunningly, here, they have convinced some actual A's players to support what amounts to a land war against both MLB commissioner Rob Manfred, who also wants the A's in Vegas, and the player's actual boss, John Fiser. One wrist at a time.

[Joel Anderson]

The issue is that if John Fisher has to pay a little bit more than he wants, then it's not going to work for him. So they want to embarrass him. They want to let people know that John Fisher is abandoning and abusing a fan base that has been really, really loyal. I haven't come across a franchise or a fan base that is more connected than this one, even though things are pretty damn terrible right now.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. And the connectivity, I mean, it's not just a battle between a billionaire owner and this diehard, downtrodden fan base. The reason that my curiosity got piqued in the first place, the reason I said let's get Joel Anderson on this story, is because of something called wristband gate. Joel. And so what the is wristband game?

[Joel Anderson]

So a lot of these old die hard fans, they've posited this theory that there's this group of four A's players, a couple of them pretty good, who are photographed wearing these wristbands.

[Pablo Torre]

What do the wristbands say?

[Joel Anderson]

Some say I stand with Oakland. Some say the last dive bar, which we'll talk about a little bit later. You can imagine that if you work for an employer and he says, we're moving, we're pulling up stakes, leaving town, and you say, hey, I like this place better, and you say so publicly, it might cause a little bit of friction. Sure. So the theory is that the four players that have all worn this official merch, you know, part of the reverse boycott resistance, that all four of them were secretly punished.

[Pablo Torre]

People are beginning to speculate that this was actually under the instruction of A's owner John Fisher and had nothing to do with baseball. And you won't believe the actual reason why. There's an online shop called Last I Buck. Their homepage features apparel encouraging fans to boycott the Aves and for Fisher to sell the team. The website tweeted pictures of four players wearing their wristbands. James Kaprilian, who's since been released. Christian Pac, who's now been traded. The A's 2023 All Star. Brent Rooker, who's suddenly been benched.

[Joel Anderson]

And of course, Ruiz among the four released traded. One player was demoted even though he's probably, you know, the best thing on the roster, right, in terms of future hope. And the team's only all star benched.

[Pablo Torre]

And I want to point out that I spoke to a guy who was a former executive at a Major League baseball team, and what he said was, quote, cutting those players is exactly what I would have done.

[Joel Anderson]

Was it John Fisher?

[Pablo Torre]

The idea is like, we cannot tolerate this kind of rebellion among our employees. Like it's not heard of and it should be punished. Even though of course, to me that feels like totalitarian government. Like now you're punishing players for sympathizing with the revol. And so what we did here was assign you as our Bay Area correspondent, newly titled, to find out exactly what is going on with this story in Oakland with the cheapest, saddest franchise in American professional sports. That is up to something that I just have not seen before. And so did you enjoy the luxurious locale that we dispatched you to?

[Joel Anderson]

I've been to a lot of bad stadiums. This is the only one that has ever literally smelled like.

[Pablo Torre]

So, Joel Anderson, before you got to Oakland Coliseum, as someone who lives out in the Bay, when you think of the Oakland days and what they used to be, oh, man, what comes to mind?

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, man, it was just so great. I mean, certainly as a kid and during the heyday, those loud colors, the green and the gold and how good it looked in the summer sun. Think about Ricky Henderson, you know, back in the late 80s, early 90s, a 3:1 nothing deficit.

[Pablo Torre]

Ricky goes a pitch ticket. He's going to have it. He does. Ricky Henderson, no contest, steals third base, jerks the bag from its moorings and hold it aloft, representing number 939.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, back when the A spent money and, you know, made all those trips to the World Series, those were some great teams.

[Pablo Torre]

High drive up the alley in left center field, and this one is going to be gone. Home run Maguire. Then it gets to Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, like the Bash Brothers stuff. And there's a drive to center back. Go Shelby to the wall. It is gone. Grand sl. Damn home run for Jose Canseco.

[Joel Anderson]

That was the height of fame in baseball, I would say, during my childhood. I mean, Jose Canseco used to date Madonna.

[Pablo Torre]

Truly the boldest face names at the time. Madonna, Jose Canseco, all. Which is to say that even before Moneyball, right? And Moneyball, to me, look as sports analytics nerd guy. Moneyball, of course, is what I also think of Billy Bean, the gm, starting the saber metric analytic revolution, all that stuff. But I feel like the entire time with the A's underrated in the concept of Moneyball, was the word money like it was, it was math, but it was also born out of what it was born out of a fundamental cheapness that the A's had in terms of how they operate.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, I mean, they were fielding a team on discount. So back in 2002, when Michael Lewis was following the Moneyball A's, their payroll was $39.7 million, which was third last in the league. Fast forward the last season. Almost a generation later. Now the A's had the lowest payroll in the league at $43 million. And this season, dead last again at 47 million. So that's 35% less than the second lowest payroll in Major League Baseball, which belongs to the Pirates. How can you make the Pirates look like they're balling and you're not? I mean, that's just how bad things are. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a very anti Canseco, anti Rickey Henderson sort of energy. Right. It's like we are rock bottom cheap. And so the guy in charge right now, Joel, what makes him remarkable, given the arc of how this franchise has, has been?

[Joel Anderson]

Well, I mean, you know that there are a lot of bad owners in baseball, but this dude probably takes the cake. He's, I'd say, the most up aloof and careless owner in the sport.

[Pablo Torre]

If you showed me John Fiser in a lineup, I could not pick him out. Why is it, why is it that he's managed to be this anonymous while also this flagrant?

[Joel Anderson]

Well, it helps that he basically doesn't do on camera interviews.

[Pablo Torre]

Avoiding the media since buying the A's in 2005. Such a public facing business, to own such a community gem. Is he cut out to be a sports owner?

[Joel Anderson]

I know you reached out to me in hopes that my reporting chops would really help out with the story here.

[Pablo Torre]

But sadly, if you dangle a podcast award in front of this reclusive billionaire and he'd be like, finally, it's time on record.

[Joel Anderson]

Come on out and talk. Yeah, right. But no, that did not work. Clarence Thomas didn't talk to me and neither will John Fisher.

[Pablo Torre]

And both of them seem to have a lifetime appointment to the jobs they have.

[Joel Anderson]

It's true. I mean, it would be very hard for them to lose those positions absent them croaking in the job.

[Pablo Torre]

John Fisher's origin story, his deal, where does that begin?

[Joel Anderson]

You know, there's just a lot of talk about Nepo babies now. So John Fisher is one of Those dudes, he failed up. He grew up a Giants fan here in the Bay. He's the son of, you know, Gap Clothing. He's the son of the founder, Donald Fisher. And the way they got involved in pro sports is when John convinced his dad to buy an interest in the Giants.

[Pablo Torre]

So just to be clear, so a. An empire built upon khakis was immediately interested in owning a baseball team.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man. And so Fisher also went to this exclusive boarding school in New Hampshire, Phillips Exeter Academy, and then to Princeton. And Pablo, I know you're a Harvard guy. I don't know how Ivy League beef goes.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

I don't know. I don't know where they rank. Like, it's Yale.

[Pablo Torre]

You know how it's ranked?

[Joel Anderson]

I don't know.

[Pablo Torre]

You know it's ranked. There's only one slot that's important. It's the first one, but yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

And so John Fisher's looking for a job and his family said, hey, why don't you come and run our multi billion dollar investment portfolio? They got into a few different ventures, but the one of the funnier ones is that he bought into 235,000 acres of timberland in Northern California. Right. So they. They have a timber company. And that deal actually spurred massive protest and one demonstration that ended up outside the Gap in midtown Manhattan. At that protest, the environmentalists chained themselves to the store. So it was very early, people figured out that they were not very happy with the Fisher family.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Very early on, people realized that they wanted to fight John Fisher by refusing to leave somewhere. This is a through line in John Fisher's arc, by the way. An arc that so far is essentially, just to summarize all of this, a story of a guy failing upwards because he had inherited wealth and connections and power. And so John Fisher ends up buying the Oakland Athletics.

[Joel Anderson]

How so? The A's are actually supposed to be owned right now by Joe Lacob, the owner of the Golden State warriors, who, as we know, spent a lot on those championships. I mean, nobody would ever call them cheap, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Correct.

[Joel Anderson]

Except that the commissioner of Major League Baseball back In the early 2000s, Bud Selig, had been fraternity brothers with a guy who was taking a minority stake as part of John Fisher's bigger bid.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just. I laugh at all.

[Joel Anderson]

I know a guy. I know a guy.

[Pablo Torre]

It's always a guy who knows a guy who knows my dad. This is how business is done among billionaires, clearly. And so at this point, now that they're struggling to win games, and now that the Fan base in the present is largely refusing to come to these games to the point where reverse boycotts are a. Are a. A form of revolution. I do want to know who is going, who is actually attending.

[Joel Anderson]

Not very many. I mean, it's very bleak out there. I mean, consider first. I mean, The A's lost 112 games last year, right? So that's not much of a draw. Allegedly, 6,000 faithful souls are showing up a night, but the next worst attendance is the Marlins. And I know you guys, this is Meadowlark. I know that it's always terrible there. More than twice as many people are allegedly showing up in Marlins games and at Oakland A's games. That's how bad things are.

[Pablo Torre]

And so John Fisher, he is mounting an argument that I think must be on some level, correct, which is the team isn't making enough money in Oakland right now and that he needs some sort of a change. Right? This is the whole argument about a new stadium. He needs a new stadium to convince people to come to these baseball games so that this business that he's running is actually something that feels coherent.

[Joel Anderson]

As Kendrick Lamar said to Drake, why would we believe you? You never gave us nothing to believe in. So basically what the Oakland fans are saying, hey, of course we're not showing up. What the hell have you given us to show up for? You've neglected and abused us for decades.

[Pablo Torre]

And yeah, I mean, that is a fair point. There is a real chicken or the egg dynamic here. The A's have basically been threatening to leave Oakland for more than two decades. Actually, you can go back and look this up. These fans know at this point when they are not wanted. And the larger argument behind the aforementioned wristbands, the ones the fans gave to those four players, is that John Fisher is not just the worst owner in Major League Baseball, like, if you know Kendall Roy owned a baseball team. They are also arguing that John Fisher and his willful tanking of not only a team, but a building and a fan base is actually the worst owner in major American sports.

[Joel Anderson]

You might say, well, what are you talking about, ken? They draw 5,000.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, they draw 5,000. And you know why? Because the owner, John Fisher has wrecked the club. John Fisher, again, since 2005, has been part of this ownership group. Who have they signed? Nobody. They have not made an impact signing at all.

[Bruce Maxwell]

Let someone who actually, like, takes pride.

[Pablo Torre]

In the things they own, own something.

[Joel Anderson]

There's actually people who give a about the game.

[Pablo Torre]

Let them do it.

[Joel Anderson]

Take mommy and daddy's money somewhere else.

[Pablo Torre]

Dork Fisher refuses to spend on players perpetually sitting out free agency. He refuses to spend on toy players getting rid of bobblehead giveaways. He refuses to upgrade the stadium, perhaps, obviously. And he even got rid of free parking on Tuesdays. In so many words, John Fisher can't really read the room, and then he blames the room for being empty. But none of what I just mentioned is even John Fisher's most egregious self. Own.

[Joel Anderson]

It's worth noting that in the early stages of the pandemic in May 2020, John Fisher was the only major league owner to cut the $400 weekly stipend for minor league players. And so there was a little bit of a hubbub, because people in Oakland, they don't take things, you know, lying down, right? And so he reversed course a week later, and this was all to save $1 million.

[Pablo Torre]

So just as a PR concern, the guy is not good at it. Like, minor leaguers making nothing during the pandemic, a billionaire saving $1 million. It's.

[Joel Anderson]

It's.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the equivalent of like, yeah, here's a sack of puppies. Watch me roll my car over it.

[Joel Anderson]

It'd be harder to be more heartless to a group of professional athletes than cutting their very meager salaries during one of the more difficult and scary times in American history.

[Pablo Torre]

And so in terms of the sports perspective here, Joel, who did you go to to get an unvarnished view amid all of this? Like, again, management versus labor versus fan tension, to get a view on what's actually happening in Oakland? Who is the person who embodies the history of this city that you wanted to talk to?

[Joel Anderson]

Well, yeah. I mean, so Oakland is a city that has a great protest culture, right? You've got Marshawn lynch. You've got, you know, the Black Panthers. So many people that have, you know, found themselves outside of the system and become themselves sort of heroes in a way. And so I decided Bruce Maxwell would be a real good person to talk to.

[Pablo Torre]

New tonight, in A's catcher becomes the first player in Major League baseball now to kneel. During the national anthem this evening, Bruce Maxwell took a knee, placed his cap over his heart, and faced the flag. A teammate put a hand on Maxwell's shoulder. He was doing something that pretty much everybody else in baseball was afraid to do, which was what, as of 2017?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. So he was kneeling in support of racial injustice and in support of Colin Kaepernick, and he was the only one doing it. I'd never heard of him before then. And as it turned out, I never heard much about him afterward either.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Where is Bruce Maxwell now? Where did you find him?

[Joel Anderson]

So now he's playing and coaching in the Mexican League. He's 33 years old, and he hasn't been back in the major since 2018. Thanks, Bruce. Appreciate you, man. It's good to see you, bro. By the way, it was good catching up with you yesterday, too, so.

[Bruce Maxwell]

Yeah, man, it's a pleasure, man. When Ziran reached out to me about this, I was like, oh, this is exciting, actually.

[Joel Anderson]

I love this.

[Pablo Torre]

So when Bruce Maxwell gets a call from you, Joel Anderson, and the call is about the Oakland A's, my instinct is not to presume that he has warm and glowing memories of what he went through. What was his reaction when you reached him?

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, man, he couldn't wait to talk about Oakland in the A's and how much he loved playing here.

[Bruce Maxwell]

The most special part of being in that organization, it was the people, the coaches, and just the overall, even in the city, it was just the camaraderie. And people are die hard. They don't let anything waver their faith in their team. No matter how bad it's been going, no matter how bad we were playing, we very rarely got booed. They've always been through and through fighting for the team. I think right now they're just. They're just tired of what's going on.

[Joel Anderson]

There was one other thing that I may have made reference to earlier. He told me about the stink, especially in the bullpen.

[Bruce Maxwell]

The quality just wasn't there. Especially for a big league ball club. It's probably really good for a Double A, Triple A locker room, but for the big leagues, it's not even comparable. And to hear guys, you know, complain about the bullpens, about the dugouts, about the septic issues that we still have in the Oakland Coliseum. The septic issue is probably. Probably the most notable thing about being on the field as a player. When they have backups or if it rains a lot or whatever, you can smell the sewage through the vents in the dugout, and it's. And it's there for days on end. It's not. It's not just some slight smell.

[Pablo Torre]

Like.

[Bruce Maxwell]

No, no, it's heavy.

[Joel Anderson]

Wow. What.

[Bruce Maxwell]

It's kind of. It's kind of degrading. Honestly.

[Joel Anderson]

You just can't really think of another professional sports organization that would even tolerate something like that. Like, maybe you do that for gamesmanship. To the visitors dugout or locker room. Right, right, right.

[Pablo Torre]

The Piping in the crowd noise.

[Joel Anderson]

Piping in the.

[Pablo Torre]

Of defecation.

[Joel Anderson]

Right, right. Or, you know, maybe their hot water doesn't work in the showers, but, like, when we all have to smell the. Then it's clear that the problem has gone beyond mere gamesmanship.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Even though it smelled of. Even though no one was there to watch this dump, Bruce feels. How about the A's leaving it?

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, he's pissed.

[Bruce Maxwell]

What's happening with the franchise of the Oakland A's is. Is disturbing. It's. It's worrisome. It's upsetting to see the game of baseball and the history of that organization be able to be ripped apart from that. That community and those fans and those workers just because we have some greedy people that don't want to do what's best for the community. It's very upsetting, and it's heartbreaking when you think about it personally.

[Pablo Torre]

So the thing that Bruce is waxing poetic about, the thing that Bruce Maxwell misses, the community. I am confused here. Is that community, the 6,000 people allegedly, who are showing up to sit in that stink, to show up and watch these games?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And of that group, he misses this specific group of super fans he got to know. And so when he was up and down in the minor leagues and there's a minor league team in Stockton, which isn't too far from here, he would go watch A's day games with this group and that group of folks, they go by a name. The Last Dive Bar.

[Pablo Torre]

And so he went to a bar. You're saying he went to a bar called the Last Dive Bar?

[Joel Anderson]

No, no. It's a group of fans that are called the Last Dive Bar.

[Pablo Torre]

So you did not go to a bar on assignment for us?

[Joel Anderson]

I did hang out at a bar, but not the Last Dive Bar.

[Pablo Torre]

Very. Okay, so if the Last Dive Bar, Joel, is not, in fact, an actual bar, what is the Last Dive Bar?

[Joel Anderson]

So the Last Dive Bar is actually a reference to the Oakland Coliseum. And in 2019, the New York Times used the term as a sort of backhanded tribute to the stadium. The headline for it was, the Beauty of America's Ugliest Ballpark. And here's how the writer put it in the story. Quote, if Marlins park is the flashy new nightclub and Fenway park and Wrigley Field are the historic pubs, the Coliseum is baseball's last dive bar.

[Pablo Torre]

So the idea that it's the opposite of, like, a velvet rope ringing this place, it's like, please, anybody, you're welcome here. We need customers actually to support ourselves. That idea, that nickname, how did it then spawn what feels like this organized rebellion now of reverse boycotters, the guys who are allegedly too dangerous to associate with? If you're a player on the Oakland.

[Joel Anderson]

Days, well, if you met Brian Johansson, you might understand.

[Brian Johansson]

So I grew up in the shadow of the Billy Ball era, you know, early 80s. But then that ushered in the Bash Brothers era. Ricky Henderson, you know, Hendu, his dad.

[Joel Anderson]

Bought season tickets every year. So he's got a lot of. He's a big Bash Brothers fan and all that other good stuff in Oakland.

[Brian Johansson]

The East Bay baseball was everything to people growing up in the 80s.

[Pablo Torre]

Brian, as the picture, the portrait of leadership for this organization, paint the picture of him for us. How does he look? How does he carry himself?

[Joel Anderson]

Big bald headed dude with glasses. When you meet him, you know, one of the first things you notice is that he has the Athletics logo. Pretty sure you guys have seen it before. The one with the cursive script that spells out Athletics. He's got that tattooed on his right forearm. One of the things that he had started doing back in 2019 was wearing a gold vest covered in pins. In that year, he got caught on a game broadcast showing his. Maybe displeasure is the best way to say it after a guy on the A's got hit by a pitch.

[Pablo Torre]

And so if you're not watching this GIF on YouTube of the DraftKings Network, Joel, what is happening here? What is. What is Brian saying?

[Joel Anderson]

Clearly this is a family network, correct?

[Pablo Torre]

This is the opposite of a network that any family should want to show their kids.

[Joel Anderson]

Brian was saying what the man. When Brian heard the Times had called the Coliseum baseball's last dive bar, a light bulb went off in his head and he knew exactly what he had to do.

[Brian Johansson]

I saw that line, I said, that's the most beautiful, greatest line I've ever heard to talk about Oakland Coliseum. So I said, we got to make a banner. We got to make a banner. It was all about making banners. My buddy called me. He goes, I got it. I'm like, what? And it was basically, it just says, baseball's last eye bar, Oakland Coliseum. It's an overhead camera shot of the stadium, which we purchased at Getty Image and everything. And the minute we dropped that, it went nuts. And so that's how baseball's last dive bar started.

[Pablo Torre]

And it feels like merch was a big part of his strategy.

[Joel Anderson]

Oh, yeah. I mean, they're a merch collective, basically. I mean, he and his buddies started printing up shirts Pins, mugs, calendars, all sorts of stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

So what's the appropriate venue for a summit with Brian? Where do you guys meet up? What is the bar that you alluded to before? The actual dive bar where you guys had the microphones rolling?

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, so we met up last month at Jack London Square, which was kind of embarrassing because it was only after ordering a drink that I found out that Brian was been sober for about a year.

[Brian Johansson]

Just pretend there's gin in here and.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Okay. We'll get through this.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Cheers.

[Joel Anderson]

Cheers.

[Pablo Torre]

Cheers. Great reporting, Joel. Yep.

[Joel Anderson]

I ended up drinking by myself, but we, we met at this cool little place called Heinold's first and Last Chance Saloon.

[Pablo Torre]

Alright, so just a quick geographical detail about the saloon where Joel met Brian. Because this saloon was near the site of an alternate universe. An alternate universe where John Fisher's Oakland days were supposed to break ground on not just a ballpark, but a new waterfront stadium, which even had renderings and everything. It is an ambitious plan that does not yet have a price tag.

[Brian Johansson]

But a tentative groundbreaking is set for late 2020.

[Pablo Torre]

The Ace, call it a jewel box waterfront stadium to be built at Howard Terminal just north of Jack London Square. But that proposed ballpark at the waterfront Howard Terminal ultimately fell apart after years of back and forth because that price tag did eventually come in. And the difference between public money from taxpayers and private money, which is to say John Fisher's was allegedly too much for John Fisher.

[Brian Johansson]

There was a 97 million dollar funding gap for Howard Terminal. You're telling me a guy worth $3 billion can't sit there and just pay the 97 million, work it into the deal and get paid back later or whatever. I mean, these guys have shown that they do not want to spend their money and they're billionaires and the fans don't benefit. It's not like Green Bay where the community owns the team. Like we don't benefit.

[Joel Anderson]

In 2018, the franchise released a proposal to build a 34,000 seat ballpark as part of this brand new waterfront district there in Oakland. And it's a beautiful spot. There's a lot of potential there. A lot of people have wanted to do things with it. This seemed like a really good fit. And so the club spent you know, upwards of about $100 million to clear land for development. Getting ready for the day that they could build this stadium there. Last year though, the A's walked away from the stadium deal when they couldn't agree on like $100 million funding gap with the city. And essentially they were like, hey, Oakland, are y' all going to kick in on this or not? And when they didn't, he decided to take the team to Vegas. Tonight, the Oakland A's are a big.

[Pablo Torre]

Step closer to moving to Las Vegas.

[Joel Anderson]

The team with the smallest crowds in.

[Pablo Torre]

Major League Baseball is purchasing 49 acres in Las Vegas for a new ballpark. Yeah, I remember this from afar. The news breaking. It was April 2023. The A's announced they're no longer the Oakland A's. They're going to be the Las Vegas Athletics, which obviously is devastating to Brian, to the last dive bar, to all these people. Which explains why they're reverse boycotting out of desperation. Last year and what we assigned you to go do, Joel, was to also reverse boycott, AKA go to a baseball game with Brian.

[Brian Johansson]

But that's like, that's the ASPR in a nutshell. They try to cover that up.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, they're like, well, we didn't know.

[Brian Johansson]

He was getting scouted. Well, that's because.

[Pablo Torre]

And in all of his veteran savvy, how does he go to a game? What's that?

[Joel Anderson]

Like, he was smart enough to bring his own burrito from home. Do you. Do you buy concessions and stuff when y' all go in there? Do you. Y' all put. I have food that I brought in right there.

[Brian Johansson]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Okay. Really?

[Brian Johansson]

I got a burrito. Same here, y'.

[Joel Anderson]

All really. Y' all won't buy none of this.

[Pablo Torre]

Bottle of Coca Cola.

[Joel Anderson]

And the only thing that Safeway. So look.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, a pro. That's a pro.

[Joel Anderson]

I wish he had told me before because I. I didn't know. I thought we were going to get food there. And I didn't eat when we got drinks. And I'm like, oh, we're gonna get a hot dog or something. And he was like, oh, no, we're bringing our own food. But nobody told me.

[Pablo Torre]

So I had a key part of the reverse boycott is the BYO burrito policy.

[Joel Anderson]

Clearly. Look, these folks are not going to pay for any concessions because why would they want to give their hard earned money to John Fisher? Nepo, baby.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, Right. Which is again, threading the needle of what it means to be reverse boycott is I'm gonna give you my money, but not for a burrito. That is where I draw the line in this protest. I became an ace fan.

[Brian Johansson]

Cause of that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Yeah. I became an ace fan. How you doing, man? Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

When we were walking to our seats, like, Brian was stopped no fewer than like a dozen times. The only thing I could compare it to is like, I've hung out with, like, mayors before. You've been a mayor at a. At a local event. It was just like, hey, hey. And people hugging him and making promises to do things for him later. I would venture that more people in the stadium recognize him than maybe the fourth most popular A.

[Pablo Torre]

Sorry to J.D. davis.

[Joel Anderson]

You know, look, I was there. I'm a journalist, right. Sitting out there in the middle of this, you know, sprawling, concrete monstrosity. I wanted to try to see this from John Fisher's side if I could.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, please.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. So here's how I put it to Brian and his friends. Do you. Okay. The very narrow empathy set of this is a stadium. Everybody knows that this is unreasonable. And, like, he's looking around the country and he's like, most other places will pay for my stadium.

[Brian Johansson]

Joel, let me ask you something.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, Let me ask you something.

[Brian Johansson]

Is Fenway a stadium?

[Joel Anderson]

No.

[Brian Johansson]

Is Wrigley Field a stadium?

[Joel Anderson]

I mean, I guess. What do we mean by. But no, it's still. It's a beautiful, historic park.

[Brian Johansson]

What about Dodger Stadium?

[Joel Anderson]

Beautiful, historic stadium, but still kind of.

[Pablo Torre]

So two of those.

[Brian Johansson]

So two of those are over 100 years old. All three of them are revered.

[Pablo Torre]

I'd rather take a piss at that place and walk in it.

[Brian Johansson]

All three of them are revered as the most historic, like, baseball landmarks in the history of the game.

[Pablo Torre]

Why?

[Brian Johansson]

Because it's viewed that way, it's marketed that way, it's invested into that way. So, I mean, Dodger Stadium, before they did the Mount Davis looked exactly like the Coliseum.

[Joel Anderson]

Right.

[Brian Johansson]

The difference is they continually invest into their product, into their market, into their stadium, like Wrigley.

[Pablo Torre]

And in Finland, this place is.

[Brian Johansson]

Has been ignored by the very people that should be maintaining it and putting money into it.

[Joel Anderson]

Right.

[Brian Johansson]

Coliseum places. The area around has never been developed because they've never had an ownership group to actually.

[Joel Anderson]

They also didn't have to share a stadium with a football team. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Honestly, the kiss of death was letting the Raiders come back and let them go back.

[Brian Johansson]

Yeah. I mean, the only excuse they have for this place not being better than it is now is themselves. At any point, point in time, these billionaires could have invested into this facility. They could have invested into the area around. They could have worked with the politicians earnestly and in good faith. Something they've never proven they can do, and they would have done that. You know what I mean? And so they haven't. And that's why it's last divorce.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. The sense I get Joel, professional journalist, award winning podcaster, is that they tried to radicalize you. I mean, we, we embedded you with this resistance. And the feeling that you get while you're in the stands is what. How would you describe, honestly, how you were feeling?

[Joel Anderson]

Pablo? I have to admit, they probably didn't have to try too hard to radicalize me, I gotta say. I've joined the resistance.

[Pablo Torre]

What does the resistance look like?

[Joel Anderson]

Well, one thing about it is that you get these cool little wristbands that say, I stand with Oakland. Right? Not, not cool for me and cool for my 2 year old as well. So you get to do that. And then, look, you know, I'm fall victim to, you know, wanting to, you know, have a little fun at some of these things sometime. And so I see Brian bring in one of those big ass cell flags, you know, big green cell flags.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, Joel, Joel, it is one thing. It is one thing to even wear the radicalized wristband, but this giant ass. You, you literally. Wait, did you wave the flag?

[Joel Anderson]

Have you ever waved a flag? Have you ever done. Cause if you haven't, like I had not, then you understand the allure of it, right? Like, even in sports, at football games where the guy runs out with the flag, I never got to do that. So. Pablo. Yes, I have to admit it. I wave that damn flag.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God, look, the photo of Joel Anderson on YouTube and DraftKings Network.

[Joel Anderson]

I'm delighted. Right? I'm like a little. I'm a kid.

[Pablo Torre]

You look like the happiest an Oakland Coliseum. Okay, so I should probably remind you now that the object I actually assigned to Joel Anderson, the object I originally wanted him to scrutinize, was not Brian's flag, or even Brian's. Bring your own burrito. It was Brian's wristband. It's a rebel wristband worn by four Oakland A's players, which allegedly resulted in real punishment from team management. And I know that the wristbands read stuff like I stand with Oakland, but this whole story, this popular online theory known as wristband gate, if true, is also big enough to maybe make a dent in this whole saga. And so I wanted to find out if this theory would stand up in court. I want to go through this investigation with you because player number one, James Caprillian, is a pitcher who got dropped, allegedly by the team for the crime of supporting Brian. And the last dive bar. Was he any good?

[Joel Anderson]

First off, he started 11 games last year for the A's. Wore the wristband. And then, look, he had major surgery on his shoulder and the alleged punishment was according to fans, that he got released. But really at the end of last season, he hit free agency and didn't get re signed by anyone.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right, right, right. And so we should say also we reached out to James Kaprellian, his agent. No response. And so the investigation surges on player number two. Christian Pace, who got banished allegedly to Philadelphia, got traded away for wearing again this, this wristband. What really happened here?

[Joel Anderson]

Christian is a pretty good player. He played in two postseason with the Braves. He's a talented Dominican outfielder. The A's acquired him when they traded away one of their only two all Stars because that is what the A's do, trade away their all Stars. Right. He struggled offensively when he came out here, he wore the wristband and then, well, it starts to happen. He gets banished to the Phillies last March for a relief pitcher.

[Pablo Torre]

And the A's explanation here was what.

[Joel Anderson]

They, they claimed he was out of major league options, but they also released that relief pitcher a year later. Pache, meanwhile, has been starting a center field for Philadelphia ever since. Analysts say just a bad trade. And when the Phillies found out why we were asking, they declined to make him available for an interview because, I mean, why would they do that, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Do you want to help us stir up some over in, in Oakland? And they're like, no, you guys over in Oakland are doing enough of that already. So player number three is Estiary Ruiz, who got demoted. And this is a guy who is notable because I have heard of him.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, one of the few.

[Pablo Torre]

He's a rising star. And so how was he punished allegedly for, for the wristband?

[Joel Anderson]

The great looking athlete, man. And he was arguably the A's best player last season. He led the AL and stolen bases for the crime of wearing a wristband. This is what people think happened. So five games into the season he got sent down to AAA despite leading the team in batting average and ops.

[Pablo Torre]

So why would his jury, Ruiz be sent down? Well, according to athletics management, they said he needs to get on baseball, which is comical because he was leading the team with a.429 batting average. And the guy they signed to replace him, Tyler Nevin, had a worse on base percentage than him last year.

[Joel Anderson]

A's management claimed at the time that it was because he wasn't going to play every day. But I did get to go into the A's clubhouse at some point and talk to Ruiz. And his translator responded in this way after saying, I don't know what you're talking about. What is this?

[Pablo Torre]

He have no idea.

[Bruce Maxwell]

So he first of all he wore that didn't know what that means. He just got on his chair. He loved Ricolo but he didn't know what that meant for him. So he definitely had nothing had to.

[Joel Anderson]

Do with us and none of that.

[Bruce Maxwell]

He just worked and was on his walk to him and he just put.

[Joel Anderson]

It on because he liked the color. Would he wear again if it's something.

[Bruce Maxwell]

That don't gonna hurt him? Yeah, he definitely will. But if he can't come is going to make hurting but definitely don't so.

[Pablo Torre]

Pleading ignorance is Sgary Ruiz player number four though Brent Rooker again, this is I, I believe the only all star on the A's last season. I presume that he knew what this wristband represented.

[Joel Anderson]

Rooker wore the wristband last year after he got handed one by the group which yes, he told me that he was aware of the last dive bar and what they stand for. Did you know them? Do you know any of those folks over there?

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, yeah, I think. I mean I generally know most of the people who come to most games, so definitely understand where they're coming from. It's an unfortunate situation and I think they have every right to be upset just because they do love this team so much. They hate to see it, hate to see the team leave.

[Joel Anderson]

This season he was literally their opening day cleanup hitter. He starts the season 04 11. Hey, early in the year 0411, that's not that horrible. And boom, the fans say he's benched. So I went and asked Rooker about this in the locker room too.

[Pablo Torre]

It is nonsense. It was. The rumor that I saw going around was that I had been benched because of it. I, I missed one game because I had an injury and that was the extent of me not playing. So there was. I was never benched. I was never taken out of the lineup. There was never any kind of. Never any kind of repercussions for me wearing the bracelet. And so I just need to be clear about this in order to be fair to the Oakland Athletics. Right. We've established that you have been radicalized. You're literally a flag waiver. And yet we don't have the evidence here. Clearly we have in fact the opposite. We have counterclaims from some of the principles that actually this whole thing about our punishment is not what the last I barely what your new friend is claiming it to be.

[Joel Anderson]

So we actually sent a list of detailed questions to the A's general manager David Forrest, and he gave us this fairly Clear statement that I hadn't seen anywhere else. So maybe we're breaking some news here, right? Quote, the suggestion that we would move players based on their opinions of a fan group is absurd. Winning games at this level is hard enough without worrying about who's wearing a wristband. You can just imagine he wanted to say, damn. But it was a, you know, written statement.

[Pablo Torre]

So I do want to express some empathy, I suppose, for the people who work for John Fisher, even the GM of the team. Right. It can't be the easiest thing to manage a team that's constantly cutting payroll, playing in front of nobody in terrible facilities. But taking him at his word and taking your reporting now at its word, Joel, what really happened here? Like, these people believe this. What is actually the reality of this story?

[Joel Anderson]

Well, I mean, it's real easy to believe in the worst, right? That the team would actually influence the outcomes of games because they're, you know, they're not willing to take on a little bit of criticism. But it's easy to believe that if you've been mistreated as a fan base for so long, they've done the worst. And so you've gone through a decade or more of lies about this sort of stuff. And so it kind of becomes, oh, why wouldn't they demote, you know, an all Star? Why wouldn't they trade away somebody that has value? Because they'll do anything.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, Right. The plausibility. A plausibility that feels, like, familiar to anybody who's, like, argued with someone that they used to love and now hate.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, very much the. Like, I don't know. It's like, you could be that way, right? Like, if we were former lovers and, like, you cheated on me or whatever, you left me for somebody else, and everything you've ever done is sort of in question as a result. And so I think that's sort of what's happening here. You know, the A's, you know, they. They say, I'm not cheating. I'm. I swear I'm staying with you. I promise you. And all of a sudden, they're getting married in Vegas and you're like, well, what the hell? Like, what was it all for? You were lying. What else did you lie about?

[Pablo Torre]

I feel for Brian and the last dive bar because it does not feel like what they have been doing. Waving flags, reverse boycotting games, protesting, organizing, building alliances with players. It doesn't seem like any of it, Joel, is actually gonna work. It doesn't feel like it's gonna get them what they Want what they love. It doesn't feel like they're gonna keep that.

[Joel Anderson]

Well, Brian's gonna try to move on, man. You know. You know, your lover leaves. I mean, you're never gonna love anybody again, Right. But in the interim, they're gonna do this thing. So, you know, they try. We talked about the reverse, the verse boycott. They're gonna do an actual boycott this time. So the day after this episode airs, Brian and his crew are going to show up for a game against the Toronto Blue Jays. And then in dramatic fashion, all at the same time, they're going to bail. They're going to leave and go to a Stadium about 10 miles up the road to watch this new independent baseball team called the Oakland Ballers. It'll be their first ever home game. And so they're hoping, you know, maybe they can fill this hole in their heart that the A's are going to leave.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Brian's going to take his burrito money and hand it to somebody else. What we found out here at the end, Joel. Right. Because this is a story ultimately about protest, and it's a story about a protest that fundamentally isn't going to work.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And so what is this all really about, then?

[Joel Anderson]

Well, yeah, I mean, sometimes you just protest because you're mad. Right. Sometimes it's just an expression of unfavorable dynamics by a group that's marginalized or vulnerable, and they just say, we're fed up, we're sick of this. Often, I would say when you do go out to protest, you kind of accept the fact that you don't know if you're going to win. Right, Right. So that's exactly what's happening here. Also, I think the other piece of this, Pablo, to be honest, is that they're trying to let sports fans all across this country know it could be you. You could easily be Oakland. If you're not la, if you're not New York, if you're not Dallas or Chicago, one of the really wealthy major cities in this country, you could easily lose your professional sports team. I'm from Houston. Houston's the fourth largest city in the top 10 markets. When I was a kid, my favorite team was the Houston Oilers. Do you know who the Houston Oilers are today? The Tennessee Titans. So you know what I'm saying, so really is important for people to know, and I think that's what they want people to know. That, like, if Major League Baseball would treat us like this, in spite of our loyalty and the culture and the history of this franchise here in this town and they'll still move it on it. It could definitely be you.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Joel Anderson, it was really good to hear from you. And also them.

[Joel Anderson]

Yeah, man, no, thanks so much. It was a lot of fun. And hey, you should come out. Me and Brian, we got some plans. I'll let you know when they are, and maybe you can make your way out here.

[Pablo Torre]

As long as I get to wave that flag. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out A Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time.