How to Give a Sh*t About Women's Basketball, with Comedian and Super-Fan Morgan Murphy

Summary

Podcast Summary: How to Give a Sht About Women's Basketball, with Comedian and Super-Fan Morgan Murphy*

Pablo Torre Finds Out – April 12, 2024

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Overview

In this engaging episode, host Pablo Torre is joined by Emmy-winning comedian and avid women’s basketball fanatic Morgan Murphy to explore the cultural explosion of women’s basketball, its crossover into mainstream America, and what it feels like to see a once-niche passion become the country’s hottest show. The conversation dives deep into why people are suddenly obsessed with the women’s game, the role of Caitlin Clark as a transcendent star, the complexities of fandom in the social media age, and the challenges and joys of letting new fans into the fold.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comedy, Gender, and Sports Fandom

• Morgan Murphy opens with reflections on how her comedy blends sports, being a woman, and societal perceptions of age and relevance.
  • “Only women and professional athletes truly know what it's like to be considered irrelevant by 40... if you saw a headline that said ‘still doing it after 40,’ it was about a lady, or Tom Brady.” (03:00, Murphy)
• Pablo remarks on the challenge of making women’s sports interesting to skeptical audiences, a hurdle that’s rapidly vanishing in 2024.
  • “We're trying to tell everybody that we're gonna talk about women's sports and not bore you… Which is a thing that feels more and more plausible to lots of people who never thought that was plausible before.” (01:09, Torre)

2. Morgan’s Basketball Roots & Regrets

• Murphy reminisces about her dream of hoops greatness, regretting not having the “psychotic sports parent” experience (like Azzi Fudd’s dad taping her hand for skill development).
  • “That's my biggest regret in life, is that nobody taped my hand to my body… what would I have been if somebody had?” (05:28, Murphy)
• She shares how discovering comedy eventually replaced her basketball ambitions.

3. The Sudden Popularity of Women’s Basketball

• Pablo and Morgan dissect the experience of longtime fans “suddenly” finding their passion on the biggest stage.
  • “What's it like when the thing that you loved and it felt lonely to love, it suddenly becomes one of the biggest TV shows in America?” (06:39, Torre)
• Murphy compares evangelizing women’s basketball to trying to get friends to try a sandwich for years, only to have them excitedly “discover” it later.
  • “There is that frustration… if you love Caitlin Clark but you don't know who Maya Moore is, that's a tell on yourself.” (07:09, Murphy)

4. Social Media’s Role & The ‘Gentrification’ of a Fandom

• Murphy discusses how social media both amplifies toxicity and exposes more people to the game, making the fandom both more visible and more contentious.
• Pablo likens joining the women’s basketball craze now to the ‘gentrification’ of sports fandom.
  • “I feel like a gentrifier… why am I starstruck meeting Caitlin Clark?” (13:34, Torre)

5. The In-Person Experience – Purity of Fan Passion

• Murphy describes the energy at the Final Four as pure and positive, very different from typical men’s sporting events.
  • “Women's sports in person… imagine going to a football game and everyone you wouldn't want to sit next to isn't there. It's only the people who care.” (15:35, Murphy)
• She shares stories of diehard fans, like an 83-year-old woman who’s attended 20 Final Fours alone.
  • “Helen, next to me on the plane, 83, blissfully unaware… she just, all the attention is just nothing but joyful to her.” (15:37, Murphy)

6. Caitlin Clark and the ‘Steph Curry Effect’

• The conversation delves into why Caitlin Clark has become America’s basketball darling.
  • “Those deep threes… what Steph was to the NBA, those deep threes, a lot of people had not seen that before.” (18:21, Murphy)
  • “No women could do that… in a very literal sense.” (18:32, Torre/Murphy)
• Murphy speculates the next “novelty” moment will involve a woman routinely dunking, triggering another wave of public interest.
  • “Once we have a player who sort of dunks casually, that will be another thing.” (18:41, Murphy)
• The unique media/TV aspect is examined:
  • “There are a couple of ways we can talk about women's basketball. One is, of course, on the level of it as a sport… and the other level is as a TV show.” (09:11, Torre)

7. South Carolina, Dawn Staley, and Dynasties

• Pablo emphasizes not to ignore South Carolina’s dominance and Dawn Staley’s coaching legacy, paralleling her to Nick Saban.
  • “The best coaching job at Dawn Staley… maybe the Nick Saban of like women's college basketball.” (20:19, Torre)
• Murphy recognizes the unique narrative of team greatness vs. individual star power.
• Dawn Staley’s postgame grace:
  • “I want to personally thank Caitlin Clark for lifting up our sport.” (22:17, Staley, quoted by Torre)

8. Race, Representation, and Cultural Tensions

• Pablo and Murphy don't shy away from how race and media narratives intertwine in Caitlin Clark’s rise and Angel Reese’s role.
  • “When the auditorium fills up… you're also going to get people who are, like, really into this because she's white… that's Great White Hope, right?” (27:05, Torre)
• Murphy notes that players can't control who latches onto them:
  • “Caitlyn is not responsible for the noise. Nobody is. Very few people are responsible for the noise that's made about them.” (27:59, Murphy)

9. The Angel Reese Angle & Trolling as Entertainment

• Murphy and Torre praise Angel Reese’s provocative, trash-talking persona and discuss her ability to compartmentalize hate and show up as her authentic self.
  • “I love Angel Reese for this game. I love Caitlin Clark for this game.” (30:16, Murphy)
  • “I'm unapologetically me.” (31:18, Reese clip)

10. Generational Savvy & Media Cynicism

• Murphy notes newer players are more comfortable using media for attention and engagement, while older fans and athletes get caught up in the noise.
• Staley is hailed as a “sage” who leads with “grace and wisdom” in a media circus (32:15).

11. Controversy, Negativity, and Sports Media Nonsense

• Pablo and Morgan skewer the overblown reactions to hypothetical debates and the “empire of garbage” that is sports media.
  • “Sports media is an empire of garbage.” (39:46, Torre)
  • They react to Diana Taurasi’s famous “Reality is coming” for Caitlin Clark entering the WNBA (40:29).
• The conversation identifies a healthy evolution: women’s sports are being discussed with the familiar absurdity previously reserved for men’s sports, measured by debates and hot takes.

12. What’s Next for Caitlin Clark and the WNBA?

• Murphy predicts Indiana is the perfect landing spot, especially teaming with Aaliyah Boston, whose genius will benefit from the new fan influx.
  • “Every single eyeball… following her [Clark] to Indiana and going, wow… is this the Shaq and Kobe? Is this the new thing?” (41:51, Murphy)
• Murphy is excited that conversions will happen: people who tune in for Clark will discover the league’s existing stars.

13. Closing Reflections: Managing the Noise and Joy

• The challenge is staying true to what you love and not being swept up in online drama.
  • “It's actually kind of difficult to just stay the course and remember, I care about this and I love this, and not get involved in the noise.” (44:47, Murphy)
• Pablo admits to feeling starstruck meeting Clark, marveling at the genuine thrills new fans experience for the first time—mirroring what longtime fans have known all along.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Morgan Murphy:

  • “Only women and professional athletes truly know what it's like to be considered irrelevant by 40… we age at exactly the same rate.” (03:00)
  • “Women's sports in person… imagine going to a football game and everyone you wouldn't want to sit next to isn't there.” (15:35)
  • “That's my biggest regret in life, is that nobody taped my hand to my body.” (05:28)
  • “Caitlyn is not responsible for the noise… It’s not like the noise is in reaction to, like, an earnest statement that she's made.” (27:59)
  • “Every single eyeball… following her [Clark] to Indiana and going, wow… is this the Shaq and Cope [Kobe]? Is this the new thing?” (41:51)

• Pablo Torre:

  • “We're trying to tell everybody that we're gonna talk about women's sports and not bore you.” (01:09)
  • “Why am I starstruck meeting Caitlin Clark?” (13:34)
  • “Sports media is an empire of garbage.” (39:46)

• Dawn Staley (via clip):

  • “I want to personally thank Caitlin Clark for lifting up our sport. …She’s going to lift that league up as well.” (22:17)
  • “If you considered yourself a woman or, and you want to play sports or vice versa, you should be able to play.” (32:51)

• Angel Reese (via clip):

  • “I'm unapologetically me.” (31:18)

• Diana Taurasi (via clip):

  • “Reality is coming. …There’s levels to this.” (40:29)

• Lynette Woodard (via banquet speech):

  • “I am the hidden figure. But no longer… unless you come with a men's basketball and a two point shot—” (38:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Comedy & Sports Fandom: 00:30–03:10
• Basketball Childhood Regrets: 04:40–06:39
• Sudden Popularity / Sandwich Analogy: 07:09–09:18
• TV Perspective & Gentrification: 11:26–14:10
• In-Person Experience: 14:31–17:30
• Caitlin Clark's Phenomenon: 18:02–25:22
• South Carolina & Coaching Greatness: 20:19–22:50
• Dawn Staley’s Speech: 22:17
• Race & Media Narratives: 27:05–29:54
• Angel Reese on Trash Talk & Hate: 29:33–31:34
• Don Staley as a Sage: 32:15–34:24
• “Taurasi vs. Clark/Beckers” WNBA Take: 35:07–37:47
• Sports Media “Garbage”: 39:46–41:02
• Clark Next Steps & Indiana: 41:51–44:32
• Final Reflections: 44:32–46:18

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Tone and Language

The episode is witty, accessible, irreverent, and thoughtful—mixing deep fandom with comedic candor. Both Pablo and Morgan are self-aware, blunt, and occasionally profane (“give a shit” is said repeatedly), skewering sacred cows and embracing both the joy and the drama of women’s basketball’s big cultural moment.

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For longtime fans, the episode is a cathartic acknowledgment of a community finally being seen. For newcomers, it’s a roadmap—welcoming, if a little wry—of how to join the ride, ignore the trolls, and simply love the game and the women elevating it.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[SVP (Scott Van Pelt)]

Reality is coming.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay?

[SVP (Scott Van Pelt)]

You know, there's, there's levels to this.

[Pablo Torre]

Thing right after this ad.

[Morgan Murphy]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings. Foreign.

[Pablo Torre]

How many bits do you have, comedy wise, about sports?

[Morgan Murphy]

I thought you were just gonna, like, in general, like, how many bits you. I have a. I have like a little chunk. Is that, Is that a. Is that a. That's a comedy math number. A little chunk?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, like a bushel. Somewhere between a bushel and a peck.

[Morgan Murphy]

I have a bushel. That sort of, you know, it also extends into, like, being a lady and it extends into why I like, like sports. Like, even like kind of trying to get to the root of, like, philosophically why I like sports, but in a amusing way that doesn't bore people. So that's what this is for.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. We're trying to tell everybody that we're gonna talk about women's sports and not bore you.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is a thing that feels more and more plausible to lots of people who never thought that was plausible before.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah. For people who were very loud about how. How not plausible. It was very aggressive in their decision that this was not a world they were into. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Morgan Murphy]

I do some sports, like, references and now things like, you know, just in my comedy, Right. Like, I do a lot of stupid sex material, you know, and then I'm like. Then I sort of explain like, that I don't even really have sex that much. I just like talking about it. Like, I talk about it a lot. I said, I'm like the sportscasters who never played. Like, I'm like the. I go like. I'm like the Joe Buck of anal. So I go into that. And then you get a few people in the audience who are, who are sports fans. You can, you can tell the, like, some people are just like, I don't know what she's talking. Like, you get. Get the sort of specifics out for, like, the real fans. And then I explain why I like sports. Another reason I think more women should like sports is that we share a profound bond with professional athletes. Right. Profound bond. Right. Like, only women and professional athletes truly know what it's like to be considered irrelevant by 40. Right. I'm not saying that's my perspective. From society's perspective, we age at exactly the same rate. Right. Last year, if you saw a headline that said still doing it after 40, it was about a lady or Tom Brady. And that's it, right? That's it. Oh, it doesn't look the way they like. It's all the same. You're still against it. Think about this. What about this, right? Who else is home tonight, right? Besides women and professional athletes. Who else is home tonight? Two in the morning, right? Crying, praying, going, oh Lord, please don't let me get traded for a 19 year old.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so you should know that Morgan Murphy has seen some things in the world of entertainment. She's based in LA, she's written for Abbott elementary and Modern Family and 2 Broke Girls and Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon and Crank Yankers. And she is a lot more than just a stand up comic by the way, with a self admitted anal stolen valor. But the whole reason I've been thinking about Morgan this week is because she is also the biggest and most informed women's basketball fan, both college and pro that I have ever met in my life. Morgan was actually there in person As a record 18.7 million Americans tuned in from home to watch South Carolina destroy Iowa and Caitlin Clark in the women's national title game. The biggest basketball audience in the history of espn, bigger than any NBA game. And on Monday, Caitlin Clark is going to get drafted number one overall by the Indiana Fever. Which means that this metrically transcendent, industry shifting, record shattering superstar is going to enter a WNBA that also just had its most watched season in 21 years. That was just last season, that record breaking too. And there are some fans out there like Morgan Murphy who we should hear from on this because they have been watching women's hoops for even longer than 21 years. For longer actually than 22 year old Caitlin Clark has even been alive. But first, what Morgan needed to do was tell me about her greatest regret as a basketball player herself.

[Morgan Murphy]

I saw this picture of Az Fudd who's on UConn, who's injured and it was her dad had like Saran wrapped her right arm or her dominant arm, her body at like 3.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh to force her to dribble with her offhand.

[Morgan Murphy]

And I'm like you, I, I, my mom, I grew up with my mom. She's like, I grew up with like, you know, dresses and makeup and stuff and my mom going like, you know, stop dressing like a boy. Like I didn't have any. There was nobody at a young age tape my arm to my body, you know what I mean? Like I was like what would I have been if somebody had?

[Pablo Torre]

But it's a psychopathic desire by the way. I wish I had a dad who saran Wrap my arm to my body.

[Morgan Murphy]

I would. I don't care if you were like, that's. That's not. You're not supposed to do that. No, no, no, that's. That might be my biggest regret in life, is that nobody taped my hand to my body. Like, that's gone. But I have players that I like, wanted to be. But a lot of those actually were guys. Like Jason Kidd at Cal was like, I remember seeing Jason Kidd at Cal going, like, that's. That's what I want. That's what I want to be passing dribbling. Like, I want to do something kind of fluid and showy. And I'm going to practice those moves over and over in my driveway. Right there's my mom inside going, I don't know what. I don't know what is going on, who that is. And that was me. But I was not physical. I had, like, very little endurance. And I was one of those kids who, I think in middle school people were like, oh, she could be. She could be. You know, I was the only freshman on varsity of two sport freshmen. Basketball and softball peaked. Peaked around then. And, you know, frankly, I think also just emotionally was like, drifting into wanting to do creative things. And by the time, I guess peaking at basketball for me was like, the same time I realized, oh, I love jokes.

[Pablo Torre]

So look, the question that I demanded you answer with me today is simple, which is. Well, it's more than that. It's what's it like when people finally start giving a about the thing that you have been evangelizing about and loving for decades and not just giving a about it, but like, what's it like when the thing that you loved and it felt lonely to love, it suddenly becomes one of the biggest TV shows in America.

[Morgan Murphy]

I think that when you tell somebody something is good, it's like, it's like everyone knows what it's like. It's like, try this food. It's really great. And your friend's like, ah, no, I just. I know I wouldn't like. It's like, no, please try it, but please try it. I beg you to try it. And then five years later, they're like, I tried this greatest sandwich I've ever had. Like the one I told you for 10 years to try. Like, it's. There is that frustration that's always gonna happen. And I also know that I've been the person who came late to something. And I think that sort of begs the question of what's like, the proper behavior of a Newcomer. Right. And so the people frustrating me are not the people who are loving something that's incredible. It's the people who are sort of stepping in and sort of like, there's no bigger tell on yourself than saying, I've never seen that before. I never tried to find what was great, like if I love Caitlin Clark. But if you don't know who Maya Moore is and you know Caitlin Clark is, that's a. That's a tell on yourself. Right. I'm not getting in those fights. I see people getting in those fights. You don't want to be that person. You want to be welcoming to anyone who loves anything. But you're just not going to avoid the negativity and you're not going to avoid the toxicity because it gets clicks, it gets views, it gets people who want attention first and foremost. It gives them that attention. And there isn't. That is not unique to women's basketball. It's just. Women's basketball is right now, I think, the most, like, singularly interesting area to study of what social media does when something reaches over into the mainstream foreign.

[Pablo Torre]

There are a couple of ways we can talk about women's basketball. One is, of course, on the level of it as a sport, and we should. And the other level is as a TV show.

[Morgan Murphy]

And.

[Pablo Torre]

And right now, I think it's fair to say that you have an unusual vantage point on what it's like when people not only give their first about the thing you've loved for decades, but they turn it into one of the most popular TV shows in this country.

[Morgan Murphy]

The thing about women's basketball in this moment is it's. To me, it's not a surprise. It would have been a surprise to see it come out of the blue maybe 10 years ago. I think that I was a little more naive about where it could go the last five years, I'd say, if not a bit more. This felt inevitable to the point where I was telling friends who did not care and going into, you know, I'm a writer for the most part and try to sell TV shows and things, and going into studios and producers and saying what I kept saying was, the ceiling isn't visible. I don't think you understand what's about to happen. And I think anyone who kind of pays attention from the inside and follows us from the inside, if you've been following something for 20 years and you start to see a peak that hasn't, you start to see an ascent at a slope that you haven't seen before, like, by the way when the game was big in the 90s, let's go through, like, you know, UConn dynasties and stuff. It felt like the biggest thing in the world to me. It was on my tv. I knew I loved it. I was like, this is great. I think I had a very skewed perspective of how many people around me actually loved it, because that was when I was in high school. These were the women who did the thing I thought was the coolest thing in the world. Right. Like the 96 Olympic team, and then the league starts in 97. And then in the last, you know, you look at five, six years, you look at, like, women taking over. You know, you have Sabrina, you have Paige, you have, you know, the Aces and Asia. It started to happen faster and faster and faster. And that was like a. That was a level of coverage and a level of fandom that, to me, was like, okay, this is still happening from the inside. This is still for fans. But the bleed over was more and more, and you could see it, and you could see more people kind of catching on and a lot more casual discourse online.

[Pablo Torre]

So I didn't appreciate the degree to which this story was also a story about the Internet for you. Because for me, what I came into this thinking was like, oh, Morgan's like a TV writer. Morgan knows television. I want to talk about this from the perspective of ratings, of the idea that, like, Caitlin Clark's Q rating.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Beyond, like, the Nielsen stuff, apparently she is at least four times more recognizable than Zach Edie, who is Purdue's, you know, best player according to the Seton hall poll.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And it's the idea that for the first time ever, the president of the ncaa, Charlie Baker, spent his weekend at the Women's Final Four, where you were in Cleveland, as opposed to on the men's side in Arizona.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The idea that all of this stuff is happening and your temptation to celebrate, but also to be, like, on guard against what's happening here. To what extent is this cynicism as well as enthusiasm as you watch all of this happening?

[Morgan Murphy]

I'm personally enthused all the time about it. Like, that is. I will say that that is. It's not always obvious on the outside. I'm not, like, you know, I'm not a person who shows all of my feelings all the time, but I was.

[Pablo Torre]

Watching you in Cleveland watch the Final Four with our friends Sudeikis and Ezra, and your expressions whenever they cut to you, it was almost like a Renaissance painting of, like, just Morgan Murphy reacting dramatically.

[Morgan Murphy]

I think I'M in awe of the whole moment. Shout out to Jason Sudeikis, like, who knew that a 15 year I've known Jason. Gosh since so since SNL and I was living in New York. A run in in New York at a WNBA game that I took myself to.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah. I took my. I see an old friend, he happens to at this moment be wildly famous and knows I love this, knows I've always loved this. And with that access goes Morgan. Do you want to also enjoy all of this? I can't say thank you enough. I am immensely grateful forever for that.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Morgan Murphy]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

And by the way, same and when I describe the gentrification of your favorite thing, I feel like a gentrifier. And I say this, of course, like as somebody who's like long, like covered the game, but just truly like, why am I starstruck meeting Caitlin Clark? Why am I like nervous after they win the Elite eight game in Albany and Sudeikis takes us down to go meet Caitlin Clark and her family and I sent you that video.

[Morgan Murphy]

Hell of a game.

[Pablo Torre]

Holy Congratulations.

[Morgan Murphy]

Oh yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to disentangle before I dive into the Caitlyn Clark of it. I want to get your sense of like, okay, as an observer, you're at these games, what's your takeaway like, what is the thing that you leave Cleveland, this most watched tournament ever, these record setting games that you were there for. What do you, what do you leave.

[Morgan Murphy]

Thinking perfect to me, like in person when you actually get out of the and who knows if it'll stay this way but when you get out of sort of like all of the different channels of media and you go in person, it is still the most passionate, dedicated fan base. You see everyone, you see people who've been going to every Final Four, every woman's Final Four for decades. I sat next to a woman on the plane who's 83 years old, who's got taken herself almost to all of them, but she's gone to 20 final fours, most of them alone. This is the joy of her life. And in person. And I've said this about even WNBA games in the past, women's sports in person is. Imagine going to a football game and everyone you wouldn't want to sit next to isn't there. And it's only the people who care. It's only the people who are pos. It's, it is. The energy is perfect. I don't think there's anything like it. I say this is somebody who loves men's Sports, I love.

[Pablo Torre]

It's different. It's different.

[Morgan Murphy]

Different. And it is. I think obviously you see celebrities popping up at games, but like there's now, now. But you know, the, and the people who know, know. And that's the other thing too is, is everything around the old school fans is a little bit of a show. They're just like, oh, this is okay. Like I'll take it if you care. You care. You're going to keep doing it. I think the, the, the hardest kind of cross section of humanity to be in is I really care and I'm really on social media. You know, Helen next to me on the plane, 83, you know, blissfully unaware. Doesn't under. I mean like the culture. Yeah. She's asking me like, why does my, why do my. If the Internet doesn't work, how come I can still find my phone numbers on my phone like on the plane? Like Helen's not on social media. Right. She just, all the attention is just nothing but joyful to her. So like, think of it that way. Like there's so many different ways you could be seeing this. But the games, unbelievable. And the people being celebrated at the games like consistently regularly and the women being sort of elevated to more TV time on espn. Right. You got Cheney and you got, you know, Elle Duncan and Andre Carter and Diana Taurasi and Suber during their, during their show.

[Pablo Torre]

Like another Rebecca Lobo calling people popping in Holly Rose.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes, absolutely. And you go those. Suddenly those are the people who've been putting in the work. Right? They've been putting in the work. This is their, their time. So you get to see like, you know, I remember Rebecca Lobo starting on air and like what she's built for. And then you go, oh my God. Like these are now, these are the Elvis's of.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. The fun of watching everybody simultaneously hit the big time.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes. That's the best part about. That's why. And it's rare.

[Pablo Torre]

No, Morgan, it's rare. Like I cover sports. You don't see a new favorite TV show break. I mean truly outrage NFL games. Like Thursday Night Football was outrated by these final four games, by the elite eight games. And that coming out of seem. And it's not nowhere because again you, you've been on Twitter building these villages. But to most of America it's like overnight, suddenly everyone started giving a massive, a massive about this and a big.

[Morgan Murphy]

Part of that in my opinion. And it takes nothing away from her game because gosh, is Caitlin Clark unbelievable. But novelty is, is a huge you know, it's a huge factor in getting people to pay attention. And those deep threes, like what Steph was to the NBA, those deep threes, a lot of people had not seen.

[Pablo Torre]

That before, was coming off the bench. Clark. Oh, my.

[Morgan Murphy]

From the future.

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Morgan Murphy]

Fans had not seen that before.

[Pablo Torre]

No women could do that.

[Morgan Murphy]

No, they didn't.

[Pablo Torre]

In a very literal sense.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah. And they came in and then they announced what else they didn't think women can do. And all those other things have been done for quite a while.

[Pablo Torre]

But.

[Morgan Murphy]

But, like, that's. I mean, I think, you know, once we have a player and it will happen who sort of dunks casually, that will be another thing that people will tune in and go, I've never seen that before. I'm gonna tune it. Like, it requires doing something that most people haven't seen. And that. And she brings eyes by doing that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Morgan Murphy]

And you can have all the. Who's better. Is the attention worth it? It doesn't matter. She brought people to this game.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to do two things. I want to get your sense of just. Of course, because sports is funny like this, Right. If sports was a true reality show. Yeah, Right. And you couldn't see this, but Chris and I, my producer, we were watching the game from Barney's Beanery here in la.

[Morgan Murphy]

Great place to watch.

[Pablo Torre]

Great. Great place.

[Morgan Murphy]

Pop a shot.

[Pablo Torre]

And we were like, are they gonna do the. Is ESPN gonna do the thing where they essentially do the Maury Povich camera follow of Caitlin Clark going backstage in shame? Are we going to get full, unadulterated, like, reality TV show, picture in picture? Because that's. Yeah, this is the character now that everybody's investing.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right. You get Caleb Williams crying in his. In his mom's arms. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And we got some of it, but not as much as sports would have word. A true reality show. So I say this to say I want to do the thing that I think we have to do, which is acknowledge that South Carolina kicked the. Out of Iowa.

[Morgan Murphy]

Unreal.

[Pablo Torre]

And like, what that team is.

[Morgan Murphy]

South Carolina also won me my. My whole bracket. I gotta give it. Give it to them. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you, Iowa families, for having me in your seat.

[Pablo Torre]

You were wonderful sitting in the section.

[Morgan Murphy]

I got, you know, profiting off of their team. Okay. Yeah, go ahead.

[Pablo Torre]

No, but. But I wanna start with before we get into, like, the Caitlin Clark effect and what happens from here, the idea that. Oh, by the way, simultaneous to this is maybe, like, the best coaching job at Don Staley, who is one of the Great coaches of all time. Maybe the Nick Saban of. To begin to mix metaphors here, the Nick Saban of like women's college basketball. I feel obligated to start there even though my brain is already onto the Caitlin Clark like yo TV show part of it.

[Morgan Murphy]

Well, I mean speaking of brains being onto something, the whole season in the back of my brain is South Carolina is going to win it all and there will be a rebound, a boomerang, something going back to. Oh wait, also there's the best team from the media. Right. Because you it. But that's a very difficult thing to follow. It's a very difficult thing to get people like, you know, oh, and we've seen what if everyone is.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, we've seen it before. Right, Yukon. We're numb to the undefeated all time great teams, as unfair as that is to the team doing it.

[Morgan Murphy]

Although I will say even, even a lot of those UConn teams had sort of notable, notable stars doing some special.

[Dawn Staley]

I.

[Morgan Murphy]

What I think is so unique about South Carolina is that you can't leave anybody open. The team itself is so good because the destination was created like what Don Staley did to South Carolina. You can absolutely see bigger school, schools that are used to having more accolades in all of sports trying now to build what has been built there. But it's, it was never lost on me that that was a narrative that was being underrepresented. I know why it's not, you know, necessarily the, the, the easiest thing to lead with.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I want to confess that when Dawn Staley took time in her post game valedictory address to say thank you to Caitlin Clark for elevating our whole game.

[Dawn Staley]

I want to personally thank Caitlin Clark for lifting up our sport. She carried a heavy load for our sport and it just is not going to stop here on the collegiate tour. But when she is the number one pick in the WNBA draft, she's going to, she's going to lift that league up as well. So. So Caitlin Clark, if you're out there, you are one of the goats of our games that we appreciate you.

[Pablo Torre]

It felt like permission for me to go back to the Maury Cam and be like, right. Because what I am truly invested in beyond like the sports story of South Carolina being great, even more than that admittedly is what the was the Caitlin Clark experience because it's over in college and college was inextricable from the magic of the story and why it, why it affected America in the way that it did. What is your postmortem of it. Why did this happen?

[Morgan Murphy]

So many factors aligned at the right time. Right. You had, of course, nil, which you know, has been phenomenal for the women's game. You go back to title nine. You go back to. This is not a result of the last year. Right. This is a result of decades. This is a result of everyone who came before. So this moment was going to happen who it was going to happen around who knew Caitlin Clark. You know, again, I think the novelty factor of her doing something we hadn't seen before was like, okay, well that's a star that even people who don't truly know the game of basketball can understand. That's a star, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Morgan Murphy]

You go to joker in the NBA, like three MVPs. It kind of took for him to even be a media hyped star because.

[Pablo Torre]

People still not there.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah. Fundamentals and you know, oh my God, this. Look how this person can score. People go, yeah, I know. Dribbling and shooting. I don't know. Shooting from there. Right. So the novelty factor, the three.

[Pablo Torre]

It's interesting, right? The three pointer.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

As this thing that. And Steph, she is more than Steph and different from Steph in various ways, but she is most similar to him in.

[Morgan Murphy]

In.

[Pablo Torre]

In making me feel like I'm watching. I'm watching something that feels miraculous. Even though we all know she's the best at doing this specific thing.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

There's something psychologically about a 35 foot three that you pull up to take when no one is like otherwise courageous enough to do it that makes me feel like David is also Goliath here.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right. Let alone to do it regularly, consistently, unapologetically. Unapologetically, you know, and then you have. So everyone can enjoy that. And then you have a little deeper fan knowledge of go. Oh, she's getting herself in a place to take these shots. Like you start to. It gets deeper and deeper and deeper. But the novelty of where she's shooting from to me is a huge factor in her sort of being the star of this moment. Right. Like, I love Paige. I think Juju is the future of the character. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Juju Watkins, Paige Beckers.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah. Like I. But have we seen what Caitlyn's done before? We have not. So I think, you know, it's. And there have been cultural shifts. There have been. But again, the foundation, the infrastructure for this sport to thrive in the media was some. That's the I told you so from a lot of people who dedicated their lives to this sport going. If you give it the attention it deserves. If you shine a light on it, this is a great sport. And Caitlin, as you were saying, dawn saying thank you to Caitlin, which is so beautiful. Caitlin bringing eyes on the sport. If you love the sport, like, even right now, you have people going, oh, what's she gonna do in the wnba? That's another. Just tell on yourself. Announce to me that you know so much about Caitlin Clark and know nothing about the next level of basketball. Right. Like, I get it. But what I also know before I'm, like, gonna react to that is I know that every set of eyeballs that follows Caitlin Clark to the WNBA is a lot of those people are going to, on that team, discover elite Boston, who was phenomenal the four years prior. Right. She's only going to bring eyeballs to the greatness that is already there. And so I'm thrilled for them to discover this. That's a fun thing to watch. It's like someone getting to watch, you know, Sopranos or the Wire for the first time. You're like, oh, my God, you get to discover this. And by the way, when they discover it, half those people will go, wow, this is good now, too. They will believe that it became good the minute they started watching. That's all just part of this, like, very kind of twisted web that you got to navigate when you're a real fan without screaming at everyone.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. When the auditorium fills up with everybody with 15 million people, you're also going to get people who are, like, really into this because she's white, who are like, that story is a story. I mean, that's great. White hope, right? It's going back to boxing.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

It's going back to. What does it feel like when finally a majority that feels like a minority gets their hero right in this?

[Morgan Murphy]

And can I still like something that a lot of people have decided they like for reasons that are not in any way, you know, sort of sound authentic, decent?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, it's also that she's awesome to the degree that even people who want to be like, oh, she's like the right wings. The favorite player are like, but she's also awesome. Like, it's just. There's an undeniability to the aesthetic of her game, let alone her as a human.

[Morgan Murphy]

You can't decide who hijacks anything. You can't. Like, tomorrow, you know, the proud boys could say, Morgan Murphy's my favorite comedian. I don't know why they would. They could, you know, But I wouldn't want other people to then go, oh, now I don't like Morgan Murphy, like, Caitlyn is not responsible for the noise. Nobody is. Very few people are responsible for the noise that's made about them. It's not like the noise is in reaction to, like, an earnest statement that she's made about, like, the state of the world.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, no, it's never that. It's never that. Caitlin Clark.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. Put her over here on this side. Like, that's the character that I just met. A Steph Curry type, maybe a Kobe Bryant type in terms of just being, like, this sort of cutthroat, super competitive killer. But put that over there for a second. Angel Reese is somebody who enjoys trolling people. She put a crown on the bench before they played that game in Albany. So. Which is to say that many things about Angel Reese are simultaneously true, right? Which is that she is somebody who is daring you to have a reaction. She wants to be provocative when it comes to. When it comes to matters of ego and greatness and her regard for herself.

[Morgan Murphy]

But I think at the end of the day, when she is pushed to answer the questions about other people, she has nothing but respect for Caitlin Clark friends or anything.

[Angel Reese]

If my teammate right here went to play for another team, I'm gonna be competitive. I'm gonna talk trash just because I'm super competitive. And that's what we do. But off the court, we're gonna kick in and have fun. So I think that's a part of the game and just trying to normalize, like, trash talking is okay, but not taking it personal off the court. And obviously, that has become a thing, and people are just trying to make it seem like it's something. But I love Caitlin, and I love her game, and I admire everything that she's done.

[Morgan Murphy]

That generation understands how valuable attention is and how valuable engagement is online. And, you know, I think my generation actually is a lot more. How do I say this? Confused and uncertain. And I think it affects them more mentally to try to dive into that space but also be who they are. I think there's a certain segment of the younger generation.

[Pablo Torre]

The incentives are so obvious, and it's.

[Morgan Murphy]

Also better now at compartmentalizing. This is what you do for media. This is who I am as a person. Right. And then you just hope that when somebody gets a lot of attention very fast, that there are good people in their lives to, you know, to make sure they navigate that sea sort of, and don't let it get to them. Like, I love Angel Reese for this game. I love Caitlin Clark for this game.

[Pablo Torre]

She's so much Better that she's around.

[Morgan Murphy]

But I also can't imagine. I can, I guess, imagine a little bit what it must be like to be a woman. I can imagine, though. I can imagine, like, that must be hard, whether or not all the people in the world saying hateful things, being what they say, to be a black woman in the spotlight, to be unapologetically yourself at this moment, and to be somebody who also reads the comments.

[Pablo Torre]

That's the key part.

[Morgan Murphy]

I cannot. I could not personally handle the vitriol that would come.

[Angel Reese]

I'm still human. Like, all this has happened since I won the national championship. And I said the other day, I haven't had beat since then, and it sucks, but I still wouldn't change. I wouldn't change anything. And I would still sit here and say, like, I'm unapologetically mean.

[Morgan Murphy]

I can't imagine that level of hate and still having to show up and be a badass. And I can imagine that the easiest way to do that is to say you right back. And there's two paths. There's sort of silent, stoic. To me, the sage in all of this is Don Staley, who, in my opinion, knows why every single moment of media has happened, you know, has sort of the grace and wisdom of having seen it all, having seen the transition into what media is now, having seen the game evolve. What I love is when it gets to Dawn Staley, everything she says is like, yeah, I get it.

[Pablo Torre]

What Dawn Staley does is the, like, 4D chess of. I'm just like, she's getting thrown questions at pressers during this Final Four weekend about, like, do you support trans female athletes? One of the major issues facing women's sports right now is the debate discussion.

[Morgan Murphy]

Topic about the inclusion of transgender athletes, biological males, in women's sports. I was wondering if you would tell me your position on that issue. And.

[Pablo Torre]

And she sort of answers it in a way that is skilled and threading of a needle and is acknowledging, like, I know the game that you're playing here.

[Dawn Staley]

I mean, I'm under the opinion of. Of if you're a woman, you should play. If you considered yourself a woman or. And you want to play sports or vice versa, you should be able to play. So now the barnstorm of people are going to flood my timeline and be a distraction to me on one of the biggest days of our game. And I'm okay with that. I really am.

[Morgan Murphy]

That, to me, is. It is a perfect reading of the time, but it also makes you go. For me, it makes me so grateful as like a, I guess, now older woman, as an elder in that states, older woman, that she is the person that those girls on her team, those young women on her team get to go to for advice on anything. And I think that's what you. You know, I think in certain ways, Kim Mulkey at LSU has been a villain in the game. You know, is. Is. Is a part of the story, but the human part of me is like, I listen to Don Staley speak and I go like, oh, if I had a kid and they were now an adult, young adult, if everything's right, I. I would trust that person to usher my child into adulthood.

[Pablo Torre]

The whole question of how we talk in public about Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and all of these players, it's funny because there are lots of people who are now invested seemingly in what women's basketball is up to, and. And they're collapsing onto fainting couches at the idea of the women are attacking each other. There is criticism that Diana Taurasi.

[Morgan Murphy]

Oh, this is. This is.

[Pablo Torre]

And our pal Sue Bird go on their simulcast of the games, and they're doing something that is, again, unapologetic. Doing a thing that has happened in men's sports forever, which is getting into a hypothetical about who you'd rather have.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

With the first pick in the draft, Paige Beckers or Caitlin Clark. Notably, Paige is not going to be in the draft on Monday.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

But nonetheless.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

A hypothetical.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And sue and Diana say this.

[Morgan Murphy]

I'm gonna go. You go. I think you have to take Caitlyn for one reason, because I think there's. So you can't go wrong with choosing either one. Right. The. The fan energy behind Caitlyn is going to be. Be a game changer for a WNBA franchise. I think for that reason, right now, this year, you have to take her from a basketball standpoint. I could make an argument for Tate.

[SVP (Scott Van Pelt)]

I'm taking Paige. Next question.

[Morgan Murphy]

So you. If you had the number one pick this year, you would take Paige over Caitlyn? Absolutely. I like that energy.

[Pablo Torre]

Sam Decker says this. He says, quote, great. Look for uplifting each other as women's hoopers and growing your sport in a positive direction.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The idea that you're undercutting the cash cow. Why are you undercutting Caitlin Clark? Respect what Caitlin Clark is doing for you guys.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right. If that is your first reaction to what you just saw and you're saying, oh, you think you're supporting women's basketball or, you know, the sort of metrics what he's saying he is announcing. I haven't paid attention to two of the greatest players in women's basketball history for the last two decades. Their dynamic, who they are. I know nothing about this. And I'm coming into this with a sort of, like, I'm just a casual consumer of the clickbait that's thrown at me like that.

[Pablo Torre]

Let me explain what you guys need to do here.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yeah. By the way, it's these narratives, like, who started the women are attacking each other. Well, that's. That's also like somebody who goes, I see what's happening. I understand that there's nuance around how Diana Taurasi was addressing this. Like, she also said she's great. And this is part of being great and being great. And you go into the league and being part of great. Being part of being great means is about getting better. They'll play against each other. So you have the within the athlete community kind of talk, which has always happened. Right. Like the vet talking about the rookie. That's always happened. It's not until somebody outside of that frames it as women attacking women that it becomes that to people who also probably didn't watch the whole interview, read the whole article, whatever you want to say, that's. That's kind of, again, part of the obstacle course of, like, for me, a fan, keep liking the thing you like. Keep liking the thing you like. Try not to pay attention to these narratives that are going to go away because they don't hold water. But.

[Pablo Torre]

But I think that people getting furious about a completely hypothetical scenario is actually a sign that, like, yes, this is. This is now. It's now we're. Now we're talking.

[Morgan Murphy]

It's half of sports media that is the basis of sports media. Right. It is hyperbole. It is hypotheticals. Right. We are, you know, it's. It. It will be a bumpy road until we get to a place where women can be addressed in this with the same language as men. We're not there yet without people overreacting or underreacting because just people don't know enough to kind of go, okay, we all know the same amount. Now we can kind of, again, we can be sloppy in the way we talk.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I want to play this sound from Lynette Woodard, who is, again, like a legend. That was not at all, given the publicity that she was due. She was playing at Kansas in the late 70s, and women's basketball at that point was not an NCAA enterprise. It was the association for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And she was the person who held the record that Caitlin Clark broke. And Lynette Woodard got a microphone and said this at this banquet.

[Angel Reese]

I am the hidden figure. But no longer. Now my record was hidden from everyone for 43 years. 43 years. I don't think I'll just go ahead and get the elephant out of the room. I don't think my record has been broken because you can't duplicate, but you're not duplicating. And so unless you come with a men's basketball and a two point shot.

[Morgan Murphy]

Hey, you know.

[Pablo Torre]

And I'm like, yeah, that's inside the NBA every night.

[Morgan Murphy]

Every night. That is. That's the kind of language that people in sports love. Right?

[Pablo Torre]

That's a love language.

[Morgan Murphy]

And by the way, she's 100% right. And said nothing. That Pistol Pete's, you know, it airs were like, oh, this is not the same record. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a valid take.

[Morgan Murphy]

It's 100% valid take. And it's only an attack when somebody says it's an attack to get clicks on their dumb site.

[Pablo Torre]

Sports media is an empire of garbage.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Like we should not garbage. Truly like the idea. Why are we on a fainting couch? Because an older player said a younger player does not deserve to break the record that they like.

[Morgan Murphy]

That is.

[Pablo Torre]

I've seen J.J. redick and Rick Barry argue about like whether Bob Koozie could have beaten a mailman.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is why when Diana Taurasi, who has takes about things.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Says something, I'm like, oh, I want to know what she thinks about how Caitlin's going to do in the wnba.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. When she says, and this is another clip, you know, when she says, they got aggregated. Reality is coming. Camilla's coming, Caitlin's coming. There's more than just that that are coming. What will the league have in store for them when they get there?

[SVP (Scott Van Pelt)]

Look, svp, reality is coming, okay? You know, there's, there's levels to this thing and that's just life. We all went through it, of course. And you see it on the NBA side and you're going to see it on this side where, you know, they, you look superhuman playing against 18 year olds, but you're going to come with some grown women that have been playing professional basketball for a long time. Not saying that's not going to translate because when you're great at what you do, you're just going to get better. But there is going to be a transition period where you're going to have to give yourself Some grace as a rookie, and, you know, it might take a little bit longer for some people.

[Pablo Torre]

And again, larger context here. She's very complimentary, but the idea that there will be a reckoning.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

At the professional level, because there are women who've been doing this a while.

[Morgan Murphy]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Who know how to defend a player.

[Morgan Murphy]

When it gets harder, it will be harder. That's not a. That's not a crazy thing to like, you know, to. To say. That's not in any way controversial.

[Pablo Torre]

Caitlin Clark will be drafted number one overall. She'll go to the Indiana Fever, which is a team that, again, people will learn about for the first time. And what do you expect to see as the next chapter of the Caitlin Clark show proceeds to the wnba?

[Morgan Murphy]

I think it is for many reasons. It is a perfect, perfect place for her. And I will say this. I think her and Aaliyah Boston, in my opinion, if you're a fan and you've been following the whole story, if you go, okay, well, South Carolina loses last year, right. To Iowa in this incredible performance. And Aaliyah Boston, 41. 41. Aaliyah Boston is her last game. This is a player who I love. I love her game. You know, I could say for a number of factors, doesn't get the attention in the media. She's deserved. She goes to the wnba and she's just awesome. Right. Still not the attention I think she deserves because there's not as many eyeballs on it. Right. She's on this team now a year later. Right. South Carolina, her team there. She spent her last day. Beats Caitlin Clark right? Now I feel bad for another senior. I felt bad for Aaliyah last year. Now I feel bad for Caitlin because she's lost. And now they're joining up at the next level. And every single eyeball, some of whom already knew who Leah Boston was on Caitlin Clark, following her to Indiana and going, wow, is this. Is this the. Is this the. And they'll need to paint it as. Is this the Shaq and Cope. Is this. Is this the new thing we knew before? I hope so. To me, that would be incredible. And to elevate these programs that even aren't in big cities. You know, I mean, I remember the WNBA starting. I remember years of. It's not going to last. That was an era of years of teams dropping out. Right. The Comets, which were the power. Like, who would have thought the greatest team, when it started, would disappear. Would disappear. I just. I am so thrilled to see what's done. I'm so thrilled to See what's done from a marketing perspective. I'm so thrilled to see the games evolve. And, yeah, it will be fun to watch them play against, you know, Phoenix and Seattle and New York. And, I mean, I love. I love every team. So I could list all the teams, but. But then people will go, oh, my goodness. I didn't know who Jackie Young was. I didn't know who Jul Lloyd was. Right. I didn't know who Nafisa Collier was. I didn't know or I didn't know any of these people. New eyeballs. Oh, my God, it's great. And again, will half of those people be like, oh, it suddenly got great when I started paying attention. Of course they will be. Let them in. Let's go. Come on. Right. More people at the barbecue to watch the game. Not just me on my couch with the game on, having to text people. There will be sports on, but it's okay. There will be other people there who don't watch either. Like, I. This is my whole life. Like, yeah, come on over. Pick a nerd. Pick a person to like.

[Pablo Torre]

So at the end of every show, we talk about what it is we found out today on Pablatore. Finds out. What have you found out not just from this show, but from your week of being at the thing that has captivated the country in a way that you had never dreamed it would.

[Morgan Murphy]

I think it's actually kind of difficult to just stay the course and remember, like, I care about this and I love this, and not get involved in the noise. And that's kind of what I've tried to do. And I actually think that at times it's taken effort in the last decade.

[Pablo Torre]

Especially of, like, to divorce reality from the Internet.

[Morgan Murphy]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

I found out in my voyage through the women's tournament that a thing that I was. That I thought I would be above is when an athlete like Tom Brady will introduce himself and say, hi, I'm Tom, and be like, you. You fucking know that. We know who you are, Tom Brady. After the game, after. After Iowa wins in Albany, Jason takes us down to the court and we. Sorry. Caitlin Clark summons Jason down to the court for the, like, the net cutting celebration. And he introduces us to Caitlin Clark as, like, this arena is, like, screaming. And he goes, this is Pablo. I have a sad video of this because I'm, like, holding my phone. Like, I'm like a kid with, like, an autograph book at Disneyland. And I'm a journalist, by the way. I want to always trust this. And Caitlin Clark comes over and goes oh, hi, I'm Caitlin. And I'm like, this is the coolest athlete. I just. I'm like, I feel like I'm 8 years old.

[Morgan Murphy]

It's the best.

[Pablo Torre]

Morgan Murphy, thank you for letting me inhabit your village from time to time.

[Morgan Murphy]

Thank you for letting me yammer on as I do to friends for five minutes until they go, yeah, I gotta go walk my dog or something relatedly.

[Pablo Torre]

I gotta go walk. Yeah, walk this dog, probably.

[Morgan Murphy]

Please do.

[Pablo Torre]

But as for the villagers inside of Pablo Torre finds out we are produced by Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez Sam Dawig Juan Galindo Patrick Kim Neely Loman Rachel Miller Howard Ethan Schreier Carl Scott Matt Sullivan, Chris To Manello and Juliet Warren Studio engineering by RG Systems Post production by NGW Post Arthur Theme song as always, by John Bravo and I'll talk to you next time.