← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.
- [00:06]
B
Green left, twins, east shore tight past 37. Buster nudge.
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A
Why?
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B
Fluty sting X spear, kill 53, Titan.
- [00:11]
A
Left right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network. Yeah, I didn't know, Nate, if you would want to even be seen with me at this point on camera at all, frankly, after what I said.
- [00:39]
B
Why you came after. Came after my career. Is that okay? You said. You said my career is not. There's no need for someone to explain. We do not need this in this world right now. There is enough sports out there, sports media to consume. We don't need that niche, Nate.
- [00:59]
A
So. Okay, so I. It's. It's something that I am gonna have to do some work to clarify what my actual intention was when I went and co hosted Dan Lebatard's show in Dan's absence and said stuff like this. Can I express an observation about how we've evolved at talking about sports? Because we've gotten to a point where jargon, where being confusing and extremely technical has become mainstream. And I just want to know when we decided this was a thing. It's not often where I have to, like, text a friend or someone who I considered a friend and be like, just FYI, this was not about you.
- [01:43]
B
Yeah.
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A
Because I felt the walls closing in. I really did.
- [01:46]
B
I saw the quote. I listen. I actually listened to the whole thing. I know that's a foreign concept for a lot of people is listening to clip. I did grind the tape. Grinded the tape, the audio tape. But I did grind it, and I listened.
- [02:00]
A
I think Dan Orlovsky is really good at what he does. I think he's the guy who's probably the best at the telestration and the breaking down and the dissection, but it just feels like a lot of people nodding at something that they think they should be impressed by as opposed to actually knowing what's happening. Like, you are a nerd that came.
- [02:19]
B
To sports and now you're like, sports are too nerdy.
- [02:22]
A
I just think we fetishize.
- [02:25]
B
I know what it is.
- [02:26]
A
Jargon. I became a. An anti intellectual avatar, which is a weird position for me specifically to be in.
- [02:35]
B
There's a Pablo's word. Pablo's dictionary account, isn't there?
- [02:39]
A
Yes. PTFO dictionary, you dummy. All right, so if today feels like a national holiday, it obviously should, because the Kansas City Chiefs are hosting the Baltimore Ravens in an NFL regular season game, which Means that the biggest and most popular television show in America by far is back. And the fact that it is the biggest and most popular television show in America is, of course, obvious by now. But it's still kind of stunning to me because I would argue that nobody watches anything more that they understand less. Because jargon when it comes to how we talk about football has truly never been more mainstream among not just coaches and players, but fans and broadcasters. We have never heard, as many people, I would submit, trying to speak in literal code. And some of this is a function now of the Internet and that fragmentation of media. But it is everywhere, as you will see this season, turning jocks into nerds. And now nerds, apparently, into jocks, which I was accused of being while co hosting the Le Batard show this summer, leading to articles and headlines and, yeah, people accusing me of being, quote, anti intellectualism incarnate, end quote. Or as respected quarterbacks coach Quincy Avery called my general position, quote, quite possibly the weirdest take from a really smart person.
- [04:40]
B
End quote.
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A
And so what I wanted to do today was call up a really smart football guy who might have been threatened by my position, Nate Tice, an NFL analyst at Yahoo and the NFL Network, who himself is a former NFL scout and a college quarterback and also the son of Mike Tice, the former head coach of the Vikings. And I wanted to start by playing Nate, who also has a couple of other key qualities that we'll discuss. This clip, this clip of future Patriots quarterback Drake May interviewing with the giants on HBO's Hard Knocks. Because this is the thing that triggered me in the first place.
- [05:26]
B
Gundolphin, right. 72 Tundra float H angle. Gundolphin right. 72 Tundra float h angle. Yeah. So Tundra stands for what, 200. 200. And what does float stand for? It's got the corner of the out flat. We call it a flag. So, I mean, we end up saying corner flag, but it flags. And the angle is an angle. You got me on that. Then you use Rita to the right, Linda to the left. It was a flip formation. Good. Read it to the right, Linda to the left. 72. Five man protection. Slide to the wheel. So if the strength of the formation is right, which. What formation is that again? Yeah, Gundolph.
- [05:55]
A
And right.
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B
Yeah, right. He's. He's there.
- [05:57]
A
The wheels over there.
- [05:58]
B
The line would slide there. We'd say 72 Rita. 72 Rita. Gotcha. So let's say this before you go to the next.
- [06:04]
A
My cynicism is that so much of this Stuff is just like terminology. Karaoke, right? Can you sing the song? Can you say the words? But you as, as someone who knows the notes, who has sung them himself. What does that mean? Translate that for me, please.
- [06:20]
B
That is. Well, gun is shotgun. If you don't say gun, you're under center. Dolphin. A D word means two by two, meaning two eligible receivers are on each side of the formation. There's three by one which are T words. So trips trio, triple T words are three by one. Tells different guys to line up anywhere. So D dolphin, right, right tells the tight end the Y that he's going to the right. The Z always follows the Y. So the Z and Y go right. Then X was always opposite of the call. The X receiver goes opposite of that. Dolphin probably tells them because it's 2x2. The F, which would be the slot receiver goes into the slot away from the call. So that's just formation 72. So again this comes. They use numbers for the protection. So the 7 is a type of protection. The 2 means it goes to the right. So the. And usually you tag the running back. So 72 means that the back is going to be aligned to the right and his protection is working to the right or his route is working to the right. And this looks like to me 5 man protection based on just how the drawing was. So 72 means five man protection work. Running backs working right. The offensive line work opposite of that. So when he was saying Rita and Linda, that's what he was saying to Linda means offensive line calls sliding left. Rita would mean sliding right. So then we get into the concept. And because it's two by two, you generally have to tag both sides. You tag this two man concept on the left and this two man concept on the right, right? Depends on the offense, which one you do first. This one, they seem to be tagging the X side first. So it's float, float. And they. You hear him talk about a little bit, he goes, well that's corner. Corner out. You know, flag is a different term for corner. Float. Flag out, float. And so that's probably how they came to that. I've been an offenses floats a formation and not a play call. So again, gets into different offenses. Tundra means. Tundra means two unders. You hear Drake talking about that an under route is a 5 yards in in or a crosser route, which is exactly what it sounds like. 3 to 5 yards. And you run across the formation. Oh, and they said H angle. Angle is the running back angle route. And then even Drake says You know, that one's pretty explainable.
- [08:28]
A
So that is fing. Insane, Nate. What I. What I appreciate is the degree of difficulty. I do not underestimate that. What I am suspicious of is the way in which people are fawning over this without knowing anything. I think they're more like me. And there's a lot of people who are just like, oh, this sounds good. And I'm like, shouldn't we move past the whole, like, you know, being the. It's. It's in Jonathan Lipnicki and Jerry Maguire. It's just like we're all marveling at the kid with the big vocabulary. I'm like, we should probably also strive to know why this is so impressive beyond the fact that it's hard.
- [09:07]
B
Football, more than any other sport, is going to have a ton of jargon because of play calls. And there's no universal term. And there's infinite ways to do things. Yes, there are rules for formation and different things you can do, but you're drawing lines in the sand. So you have to have some universal terms. All right, is the second outside step and inside. What do we call that? Slant. Okay, that's pretty universal. Everyone knows kind of what a slant is. But what I have noticed is a lot of people have gotten their hands on real deal playbooks, Shank, Kyle Shanahan playbooks, and they're.
- [09:40]
A
Yeah.
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B
Easy to get. Actually, pretty shocking for me, entering media to realize how easy it was to get my hands on some playbooks.
- [09:48]
A
Some. Some black market PDF.
- [09:49]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, the black market. Yeah. Black market. Nerdum for sports. For football is pretty good right now. It's booming. Business is a booming. But when going through that, I. I understood where it's fun learning a different offense. And I think this is what. Something that's been misconstrued a little bit with football even, is that there's more than one way to do things. And I think sometimes when a thing happens with football, a play happens. I'm. I'm one of the biggest persons that does. This is goes, hey, this is what this is. This is what that play was that just happened. You just watched on Monday Night Football. But what I've noticed is people use the. The term, the nickname for it, which if I've always found, if you need a definition for the definition, you know, you need to use the word to describe the word. That doesn't work. That's not going to make anyone smarter. I feel like we've gotten to a point where it's like, I recognize that that play from Shanahan, it's like, that's leak. And it's like, yeah, okay, cool. Yeah, it's a cool touchdown. Why did it happen? Why did they call it? There's a Rick and Morty line that nailed this. Rick makes a joke, and he said.
- [10:48]
A
Man, that guy is the red grin.
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B
Grumbolt of pretending he knows what's going on. Oh, you agree, huh? You like that red grin Grumbolt reference?
- [10:56]
A
Well, guess what? I made him up. You really are your father's children. Think for yourselves. Don't be sheep. And so the two of us, I will disclose my psychological priors here. Right? So I'm the son of doctors, and when I listen to that stuff, and I did not go into anything resembling medical school. Spoiler alert. Dropped out of the first, like, intro to biology lecture knowing I could not hang with these people. Listening to Drake May, though, it reminded me of physicians who will say, like, the Latin words for body parts as opposed to what a patient might understand.
- [11:30]
B
Yeah.
- [11:30]
A
As if to keep it from the patient's understanding. And so, Nate, the reason why you are my preferred translator here and my guide into jargon is because you have a, I think, specific set of both skills and also inherited psychological traumas, perhaps from the way you grew up. So for people who did not listen to your previous episode with us, which was one of my favorites about your relationship and your. Your roommate experience with Russell Wilson at Wisconsin, as you say, you were a quarterback there. I want to go back in time to when you first learned jargon. And if you could explain it in the context of your family, I would especially appreciate how your brain came to cotton to all of this stuff.
- [12:20]
B
So my dad was a longtime coach. My uncle was a coach. They both played in the NFL for over a decade. My uncle played for 10 years. My dad played for 14 years. They both got coaching. I have another uncle that's a current college coach at the University of Kansas. I've been around it and I. It kind of. For me, it was it just one of those going to practice. You hear the terms. I was a ball boy at 7 years old. I'm reading a script. You know, basically how they put out practice. I used to have to spot the ball. But then I started learning what those terms meant. Seattle meant double slants. Seattle on a defense means something different. Seattle on offense means some. For a different offense means something completely different. But because I Learned that at 7, 9, 11, then I got into my high school offense, then I got into my college offense. I got to Two colleges, one at UCF and that Wisconsin under Paul Christ, they called the same things two different ways. Because I've been exposed to so many different ways to call, you know, a million ways to skin one cat. I kind of just realized that I was around this football stuff and I realized people, different people called the same thing this, you know, different ways that I was like, oh, that's cool. Why do you call it that? Like, I'm trying to like, let people know how sometimes these intricacies, these little minor things matter a lot and are really cool. Like, why does something happen? How did that happen? And that's really, for me, that's. That's my. I. I love learning about things. I love reading, reading about things. I love what kind of micro histories on something. I'm reading one on freaking salt right now, but it's just.
- [13:44]
A
And by the way, you reading a. A Literal history of salt does again, sort of fit with the, with the tenor of, of what we're trying to discern here. But I also want to point out that it is in fact really cool when smart people can nerd out about stuff in a way that builds a connection that wasn't able to be or wasn't encouraged to be showcased. Certainly when I was growing up consuming media. Right. So I want to establish kind of like the polarities of football coverage because historically, when I was growing up, Nate, mainstream football coverage was so vibes based. It was about does this guy. It was clutchness purity tests. But we've never ever said Peyton Manning and thought immediately clutch if I say mj, clutch if I say Jeter, clutch if I say Brady, clutch if I say Montana, clutch if I say it was who wants it more? And all of that, of course, course is reductive. And, and as a guy who also enjoys. And this is why I think I became somebody who people felt betrayed by. As a guy who also enjoys analytics, I also know the other end of the equation. The other polarity is. Is jargon in a way that, that gatekeeps. For me, it does remind me of another one of your interests, which is another reason why I want to have you on here, which is you also love board games.
- [15:15]
B
I do, disgustingly. So how, how.
- [15:19]
A
How would you characterize your love of board games, Nate?
- [15:22]
B
Obsession? Borderline. I. It's everything. I. I didn't realize how much I like board games. I played. Like many people got into Catan in like the mid.
- [15:31]
A
Early mid 2000, 2000 settlers of Catan.
- [15:34]
B
Just Catan now, though.
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A
Oh, is that right?
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B
Yeah. Yeah, they dropped the settlers up, you know. You know, it's just seal, just Facebook, it's cleaner. I really like competition. I really like kind of puzzly stuff and trying to figure something out, maybe make it most efficient, have some strategy with it. And board games kind of just. It's clicked for me. And then all of a sudden I got to that started going, what other games that can I get? And then I realized there's a whole world of modern board games out there. Board game geek. I highly recommend for a lot of people, but I own probably about a hundred games and I try to.
- [16:10]
A
Jesus Christ.
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B
I know some of them are like party games. No, that's not a hack. Guessing games, you know, monikers, these things. But then some are a little more deaf. War games. There's one game I have called 1960, the Making of the President. It's a two player game. One person's JFK's campaign manager, one person's Nixon's campaign manager. It's like a, it's like a tactics war game. You'd love it.
- [16:31]
A
But I am interested in that.
- [16:33]
B
I know, but it's, it is something that I love rules as well. And I love definitions and I love. And I think that's why I like rules, because it says, well, you can do this with this. And the most brilliant games. There's one game I love called Carcasson. There's other games where I love when they give you like two, three rules and then they leave it up to you. They say there's only a couple rules you have to follow, but how creative can you get with those? And so that's where kind of those games click for me. Because it's like, wow, there's creativity in some of this stuff that maybe you, other people haven't thought with some of the strategy and everything.
- [17:04]
A
Right, but that, but this all sounds like football to me now. The, the, the desire.
- [17:11]
B
Strategy jargon. Yes.
- [17:13]
A
And, and the desire to have people to want to play with you.
- [17:20]
B
Yeah.
- [17:20]
A
Like the social aspect. And this is where I'm like trying to figure out like, okay, how do we broaden the net of understanding? And I do think the first step to broadening the net of understanding, to lifting the gate or lowering the drawbridge, whatever my tortured metaphor of choice happens to be. I do want to establish for people who are not initiated into the very basics of the, the vocabulary here, Nate. How complicated it can get.
- [17:45]
B
Yes.
- [17:46]
A
How do you begin to explain how hard it is actually to be fluent in all of these, all of these.
- [17:53]
B
Dialects I grew up around it, and a lot of it is just a roller, a Rolodex, and it's just a. I've heard other people using this, and that clicked for me and that it's hard for me to go, yeah, you can learn that in a year or six months. You can learn some things and learn a lot of the definitions and all those, but it's just. It's hard to just use it fluently like. Like a native speaker. And I'm a native speaker. And again, again, not trying to hype myself up here, but this is just how it goes. But it's like if someone. Someone learns Spanish and then you know, hola, adios, and gato using all these words. But you're not just going to go, I'm not going to go into Mexico or Spain and go, gato, gato, gato.
- [18:32]
C
Hola, ola, la.
- [18:33]
B
Adios, adios. You guys got what I meant, right? That to me as a native speaker, sometimes when I see jargon getting thrown out there, especially football jargon, I'm like, okay, I'm not going to call you out. But it's like you're not using it right or you're using it right, but wrong. Like, it's in the right.
- [18:51]
A
You forgot the en. You forgot the accent. Mark.
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B
We. So many people go, oh, McVeigh's great. But why is. Why is he great? Like, what. What does he do specifically once the. Now the person could go to the bar and he's 1% smarter than his buddy because he didn't just say, McVeigh is great. He says, actually, they run like a power run here. That's pretty cool. Boom. Oh, my God. John's so much smarter than Mike at the bar. It's that balance, though. It's the ones that have to explain it and the ones that do don't or don't want to gatekeep that do want to explain all these things. But again, it's just that it's. It's not always perfect. So it gets a little edgy and it gets a little over. Up its own ass a little bit.
- [19:39]
A
So the up its own ass part, I do. I do think there is something to being in awe of what you don't understand and respecting it as an order of magnitude that is different from your sort of capacity to. To translate it. And there is one. I just want to play one clip because when I talk about performing difficulty, I think about how Drew Brees basically sounded like sort of like a Sotheby's auctioneer. At one point you might recall him talking to Mike Tirico about Sean Payton's offense.
- [20:17]
B
There's some. There's some very long plays. There's a lot of verbiage at times. Give me one. It could be green left, twins, east shore type pass 37, Buster nudge.
- [20:24]
A
Why?
- [20:24]
B
Fluty, sting expert, kill three, Titan left.
- [20:27]
A
So just as a matter of translation. Nate.
- [20:30]
B
Yeah.
- [20:30]
A
When he says that, do you understand it?
- [20:34]
B
Yeah, most of it. I can translate it because he. Even in football there's different translations, there's different dialects. So like I've never been in a Sean Payton offense, so it's not all literal, but I could tell you it's a doubles left to be like a two by two formation. D equals two by two, meaning two eligible receivers on each side. He had a kill play there. And I think the last play. 33. I didn't hear the term. That's a run play. 33 is a run direction and type. The first three is the type of run and which back. Sometimes you could go to the two back or the three back. All football terminology is. Is the get everyone lined up even.
- [21:07]
A
Like the term kill play. I just want to clarify that for. For the. The lay person. That means what?
- [21:13]
B
You package multiple plays together and the quarterback based on the defensive look goes. Goes from one play that's the first play called. And then you kill it. Kill that play, forget it. To the next play that's called in that. In that huddle. So you go like sword kill. 34. Bob, I'm just making up once, but it's just the first place a pass. There might be a look. Might be a certain box count, might be a certain defense we're looking for. Might be. Oh, shoot, we can't block Micah Parsons on this place, so we have to run it away from him. Could be any of these types of things, but again, different translations. I call it kill. Other places called alert. Other places called can, meaning you have another play in the can.
- [21:50]
A
What I think about is not just, okay, out of my depth again. I also wonder if all of this is deliberate. Like it. It feels like you're describing a system that is almost daring you to misunderstand it or to confuse it. And is that. Is this because the point is to speak in code? Is the point so that you can't actually understand it if you were to overhear it or what? How do you explain why the language evolved this way?
- [22:19]
B
Well, Sean Payton is a great example right there because his play calls are going to be really wordy. It Was a lot easier when it was just a standard run play. I write 35, Bob. That's a lead zone play. And with that play, that's it. We have no shifting emotions. Now everybody's shifting emotioning every play. Those need words. You have to tell this player to go to the left. And that's before we might, we might even get to the formation. Then we get to the formation. Now we got guys shifting emotioning. Now we got to give the protection call. So that's another word. Now we got to give the pass concept. That's another word. When I have to give the cadence. You know, maybe we do this on two. That's another word, another verbiage. So you might just be telling one guy to shift across the formation. And it'll take 14 words to get there. The millennials have taken over as all these guys, they understand, hey, let's not go crazy here. Sometimes it's those coaches showing off like a Sean Payton going like, look how much I know.
- [23:11]
A
That's what I was going to ask.
- [23:12]
B
I figured old West Coast, west coast guys. Yes, yes. It was absolutely to show off. I heard about these old Raiders coaches. They would keep their play calls from one week to the next. So by the end of the season, they would have 800 play call sheets that the players had to know. And you're running 60 plays a game.
- [23:29]
A
There's.
- [23:29]
B
Yes, you need a menu, but you need more of that. It was. It used to be. And I really believe it's a big way to show off. But then you get into Mike Leech who just goes right 92, and that's it. That's the play call. So again, it's different ways to do it. But NFL's complicated. That's why you need more words. It's just to get everybody lined up perfectly right.
- [23:47]
A
So hold on. So. So. So the broad. The broad theory of why it's so complicated to. To call a play is because it's actually the simplest version that a lot of coaches can come up with. That's like the origin story is. That's it. Directions for everybody. I need to say this quickly because there's a time pressure.
- [24:10]
B
Yep.
- [24:11]
A
So how often is it that the non quarterbacks are up because of this very jargon problem?
- [24:21]
B
More than you think. And that's what's frustrating when you literally tell the person what they're doing and they still mess it up. But more. More than you think. And I would even say in college I'll be lower on some guys because I can realize that they're maybe short on a route that they're guessing on some stuff, but NFL is pretty good. Like the coaches will get through to the players. Players, it's their job. And so by that level, you have to have a certain threshold of intelligence. But most times when something looks wonky, it's because a receiver was wrong.
- [24:48]
A
So to go back to those coaches in the west coast offense. Right. So I should point out in the history of, in my personal understanding of NFL media coverage history, John Gruden, who is a practitioner, of course, of the west coast offense, the most public face of it when it came to being a broadcaster. I mean, all started with Spider2y banana.
- [25:10]
B
Take a six step setup and you're throwing the ball to the fullback on Spider 2 y banana. Yep.
- [25:18]
A
Why banana?
- [25:19]
B
8 to 10 yards, depending how clean he gets off. Today we're gonna run him on a corner route.
- [25:26]
A
Strong right, slot two right, Z right. Spider two, Spider two Y Banana, Z over. And you're gonna call it like it's your favorite play you've ever gotten in your life.
- [25:36]
B
Like it's. Oh man.
- [25:38]
A
Strong right, slot, Z right, Spider2y banana. Zo. I remember this because it was like the first burst of jargon that went viral.
- [25:48]
B
You're right.
- [25:49]
A
Yeah, it was, it was a meme because he was teaching Marcus Mariota and Mario is sitting there and Gruden begins to again in a way that was. That was fun. Was nerding out about his favorite play. And to you, Spider2y banana, when you see it as now this cultural artifact, like the patient 0 of. Of. Of the term that everybody would like begin to almost repeat to themselves as a part joke, but also a demonstration that I'm in the club. I know. I now know what this is. What is that play in your mind? How do you explain it? What is like, is it, is it funny that that became the thickest.
- [26:27]
B
Yeah, it is because it's a, it's like a short yardage play. You'll have a corner route, which is a high angle route, a flat route, which is a short route to the sideline, flat, and then a route coming over from the opposite side. It's a safe play. And I. It's kind of funny for me that he says that's his favorite play because it's like. Oh yeah, everyone runs that. It's kind of like a gimme play. Like you usually run it for younger quarterbacks or because it's just such. It's simple to read. Boom, boom. You look to one side. One, two, three, But I think also that it's kind of always a. It's kind of like one of those always works because you only usually call it like the two yard line or you call it third and one, and usually you're hitting that flat route. You're not even hitting the Y banana. You're hitting like the fullback on the flat. So it's like a quick hitting wheel first down. So.
- [27:11]
A
And you're saying that the banana, the Y banana isn't even actually the thing that you mostly are mostly in at.
- [27:16]
B
No, it's not the.
- [27:17]
A
I've been. I've been li. I've been living a lie.
- [27:20]
B
If I. If you threw it 10 times, I say you throw the banana once or twice.
- [27:24]
A
It's only taken me about 20 years to understand what the. Was happening in that viral clip, but I. I want to get to something that a friend of mine, Seth Wickersham, quoted for me because I was talking to him also. He's an excellent football author, journalist, and he reminded me that Bill Pollian once said something to Michael Lewis. Bill Pollian, the famous GM of the Colts. Michael Lewis, of course, author of Moneyball. And what Pollian told Michael Lewis was that, um, if you wanted to know why a play worked or didn't, he would talk to every starter and every coach and he still would not have clarity. And I want to get to this notion which you've alluded to before, which is that intention for the play seems like an underrated part of, of decoding what's actually happening here. Like, what were they trying to do, which isn't discernible based on just the film and even the full dictionary of terms available to you.
- [28:19]
B
Right? Yeah. I think when you look at a past concept in a play, and I think this is where too, is that. That's why. When you learn the why, it's not always the result. There's so much in the process of football that a lot of it comes down to timing and anticipation. Those are words that get thrown around way too much. But in the passing game, everything's tied together. And I know we think of discipline as like, training and like hard practices, but discipline as far as rules, then I think people realize, and I think that's again, why I try to emphasize where people are like, well, why didn't you just throw it to this wide open guy? It's like, well, physics is the quarterbacks looking to the right, the receivers all the way to the left. Well, why didn't you look left? Because of this coverage, this concept again, that's getting, you have to get five steps to explain that. But I feel like if you just get one more step, then it kind of just, oh, okay. Maybe I won't understand that. Just because the guy's wide open, why didn't the quarterback throw to him? Because there's so many rules. I think that's where I have fun with it and trying to break it down. And that's also where the cool things come because then you see defenders breaking rules. Micah Parsons, I'll refer to him again. They call them better bees, which is you better be right. Meaning a defender has to be in a certain spot, but he's gone. I bet you're gonna JJ Wallace to do this all the time. I bet you you're gonna run right here. So I'm gonna knife inside and go rogue. I make the play, people go, wow, what a hell of a play. If I were coaching a high school footballer, I'd probably be ticked off. But then that's what makes Micah Parsons cooler, is because you understand the rules that he just broke. This comes down to the, the board game thing. I said like where you get three rules and you can stretch them differently. That's what makes it cool. That's why Mahomes, I would never use my homes as teaching tape. He breaks rules. He does stuff that no one else can do, but he also understands the rules. And that's also an underrated thing with him. So it's, I think that's what I, I, I've really tried to find joy in it. I do find joy in it. Personally, I try to share it. Is that when you see those little things and go like, well, that was cool. And that's why it's so cool. Because even if the guy didn't make the sack or the guy didn't score a touchdown here, or it's just a five yard rushing play, there's some little cool things that happen to make that five yards because of all these rules that are getting broken or not broken or there is discipline or something like that.
- [30:43]
A
So much of the way that the language and, and the strategy has evolved clearly relies on human brains and mouths and the ability to perform a recitation under pressure and then actually do the thing that the recitation is demanding. And I wonder if this is ever going to change, like technologically. Nate. Right. So.
- [31:06]
B
Oh yeah.
- [31:06]
A
Currently. And just for people who again, don't know, like the quarterback needs to be the guy who tells his teammates this is what we're doing. Because there isn't the currently. There's no rule that allows a coach to put microphones and, and earpieces in everyone's helmets. But it feels like if you're designing football in the 21st century, that's a solution to help make all of this that much more legible.
- [31:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [31:37]
A
What is your, is that, is that as, as, again, as, as a coach's son, as a quarterback, Is that something that you want, like some technological innovation there or. No. Are you, are you in the mode of like it's still actually better the way that it's happening right now?
- [31:54]
B
I, I kind of like how it goes right now because when you give some maybe coaches and stuff shortcuts, it long term leads to a worse product and worst ball because they're not actually learning, they're not actually doing what they're supposed to be doing. And maybe this is this. I'm the oldest 34 year old you ever meet and maybe some of this is just some, some curmudgeon in me going like, no, this is how we always did it. Like if you're. No huddle. If you. Because the XFL did this a couple years ago where they had the communication to all the skill players. The offensive line did not. That could lead to some weirdness, some wonkiness to some like, I, I think some tempo abuse, you know, no huddling and everyone lines up and just goes, goes, goes. Puts the defense at a disadvantage. I like having a lot more pressure on maybe the quarterback and the play caller and the teachings that they have to do as opposed to maybe giving them a crutch a little bit to like where they all can just hear the play call. I, I think some of that too. Some of these OCS are terrible on the headset and maybe I don't want them talking to the receiver because they get, they get emotional and that's like a big thing. That's like a real big thing with, with, with coaches.
- [32:57]
A
And explain, explain how common it is that a coach would be so mad at you that he would be inarticulate.
- [33:07]
B
Way more common than you would think. It depends on the coach. I mean, but see how many, see how many delay games Parbaugh and the Chargers get this year. You know, maybe that, that's part of it a little bit. It's, I mean, Paul, Chris, who is very calm on game day, think it would be. I was the backup quarterback, so I was the one signaling plays. Thank God no one else could hear what he was saying sometimes because a lot of those players would be like, this guy hates me. Because he, if something bad happened, he let out just like an expl, like just oh, this guy can never catch the ball. So I like, I kind of don't want that because I know how some of these coaches are. That's another thing that I think gets misconstrued is that it's like, oh, get the play call. It's simple. We already heard how long the play call is to, for a coach to a player, player, reiterate to the other players. I just think that I like that and I kind of want to kind of keep that going. So maybe it's just, maybe the oldness of me.
- [34:02]
A
Right. So some of the degree of difficulty here, it sounds like also in your voice I'm detecting a, you enjoy the masochism of it on some level. The challenge. And, and, and I, I think about like in Major League Baseball, there's a system called pitchcom. Now it's proprietary push button player wearable transmitter that allows players on the field to communicate plays to each other without using any physical signs or verbal communication. Every player wearing receiver actually hears the same instructions in their very own chosen language. And so there's the ability to actually speak literal foreign languages, Spanish and everything.
- [34:35]
B
Yeah.
- [34:36]
A
And be fluent in the foreign language of, of, you know, calling a baseball game. For you. I feel like there's a loss of romance there, There's a loss of, of, of a certain lore when it comes to the shortcut a little bit.
- [34:51]
B
I like rule bending and finding ways to be best at the rules given. I, I, I do like, I do like those aspects of sports. You know, there's abuses of systems and everything. Especially in baseball, college football. I mean there's more people that steal signals than you would think. Like as far as, because they don't have the headset comps, they're, they're working on it right now. Which is exactly huge. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a big thing too where these teams, everyone's like, wow, this offense coordinator is brilliant. It's like, yeah, they steal every play. Like I would be good too if I knew what was coming.
- [35:19]
A
But even, even that, right. I like code of to decode a very basic thing. It's like, why do college football coaches have on the sideline? Oregon did this famously at the University of Oregon. Signs have made their way onto the football field. Coaches created a new signal board play calling system this past spring after concerns.
- [35:37]
B
The Ducks hand signals were compromised last season. What we have on those boards each four quarters mean something to our guys. One Picture will tell us the formation, the play, and the snap count. And all 11 guys on the field know what we're going to run.
- [35:50]
A
Why do they have a poster board with four quadrants on it? It's because they're anticipating, in the way that football is also a tactical, almost military campaign, that someone is trying to break their code. It anticipates stealing, actually.
- [36:04]
B
Yeah, it does, because that's what you do. These guys gotta. They gotta change it up and they'll have 40 dummy signalers. But again, I like that. And I. Again, I. And there's another part of me that goes, yeah, you're cheating, or, yeah, you're. You're kind of gaming the system. You know, you're not really doing true football, but that's the game. Like, those are the rules given. You have to signal the play. How do you do it best? If you're worried about it, go to wristbands.
- [36:40]
A
I do want to salute those, Nate. Like, who can do two things. They can nerd out with their fellow dungeon masters, right? And they can also. They can also explain the rules to me. And I think. I think about stuff that you've done where I'm like, what I really love. So you. You interviewed again, one of the big protagonists in. In the football intelligence discourse in the last year or so has been C.J. stroud. And so C.J. stroud is somebody who we actually did an episode about through the lens of the S2 exam, which, if you did not watch the episode was a test that was controversial because C.J. stroud had a very bad score on it. And there was a back and forth about, did he actually try? Was he actually just failing? And a cognitive assessment test. And so at, I believe it was the super bowl, you sat down with CJ Stroud. And what I loved watching, even though I did not understand, again, the vast majority of it was you were in the position of almost of. Of exam proctor.
- [37:43]
B
I just want you to talk about your process here against two men. And I can run it through or.
- [37:46]
C
If you want, out here. Yeah, so they showed a lot of two men in the. In the fringe, also with quarters.
- [37:54]
B
When you see the Stroud stuff, that was impressive even for me, and I.
- [37:57]
C
Really seen the nickel. And I'm thinking he's gonna back up and play combo, which is just. They're gonna play like a mini cover, too, in the sense of quarters and man, the outside guy. So that's what I originally thought. So I snapped the ball and I see this mic. I'm looking at this Mic.
- [38:14]
B
Yeah.
- [38:14]
C
And I. And I also see this backside wheel kind of cross cut. So I'm thinking it's some type of man at this point. But I couldn't tell which type of man. I didn't know if he would have dropped in and played lurk or if he could have dropped in and play lurk. So I really had to see it.
- [38:29]
B
Truly, one robber. Lurk is one robber.
- [38:31]
C
That's what we always talk about. That's how we call.
- [38:34]
B
I have to. We have to translate Spanglish every time. All quarterbacks in the NFL, like, are going to be pretty impressive. Like, they're even that Drake may clip. Some people are like, every quarterback can do this. It's like, yes and no. Like, we can all go. I can go on the board and draw that all up once the bullets start flying. Yeah, maybe not so much. That's where the impressive stuff comes in. But with Stroud and why I found those plays or whether I wanted to show him those plays, it wasn't a touchdown. It wasn't a huge gain. It was one. One was like a first down on third ten. And one was like a. Like he beat a blitz on another one and right away he just grabbed the pen. He's like, yeah, I'm going this Cuz I could tell he was like, yeah, this is. This was good stuff, wasn't it?
- [39:10]
C
This front side might go, this backside will go. And the shell didn't really change. And it's hard to see all this at once. So it's kind of like I'm seeing it in segments.
- [39:17]
B
You don't say. Right.
- [39:18]
C
And then I see this front side mic jump really hard inside. So when he jumps hard inside.
- [39:23]
B
Yeah.
- [39:23]
C
I'm like, okay, I probably have two man here. So my read was one to this back to Dalton on this inside, like, mini glance, as you can say. And then I have a now route as number two coming by Rob and then a china for late. And down here, Dem isn't against going for a first dance. So really right here, I'm looking for a completion.
- [39:45]
A
This is my big takeaway from, like, the only monocultural institution left in America, which is the NFL, which is football, broadly speaking, which is that you guys are so much nerdier than the popular conception of what football players are supposed to be. Right? And I love it when you guys let your freak flags fly. It's cool. I like it like this weird. This again, all of the jargon. On some level, I appreciate it. But now we've gotten to the point where it's been so mainstreamed where there is an opportunity to explain why it's impressive as opposed to why it's. Why it's jarringly complicated in a way that maybe initially felt impressive. It's. It's the thing of, like, okay, I'm interested, but now can you teach me? Can you. Do you want me to sit down at the table with you and play this weirdly elaborate board game that only you guys understand that I thought I'd been watching, but actually really didn't understand this entire time?
- [40:47]
B
I. I think you finally had to come on the show to connect that, that, that it makes so much sense. I like board games because I truly like when I see the light bulb go on for people. Like, I really. I. I mean, I. I think there's 16 cousins on my dad's side. I would say 10 of us have been coaches or teachers. Like, it's just kind of like what we. What we like to do. But I truly like to see that light bulb come on. That's why I like teaching board games. And I. I also think it trains me with some of the football stuff, but also, you know, some of that. I don't want to be too mean. Some of the players are boring. You know, some of the players are kind of have basic takes, but not with football. And you get them talking about their actual expertise and their actual interests, and you see passion. You see. And rather than give them the same answer, they don't want to be here. They want to be working, working out. There's a diet for football. There's a diet for sports. It just can't always be sugar. So sometimes you need some veggies and fruit to kind of make it all a little bit better. Sometimes with flavor. Could be deep fried.
- [41:49]
A
Oh, you know. Oh. As I said, look, if nothing else, I want this show Pablo Torre finds out to be a show. Melt cheese on your broccoli.
- [41:57]
B
That's exactly it. As someone that went to Wisconsin or. Or I IGA at pit, too. Fries in your salad. That's what, you know, as they. As they like to do in Pittsburgh about. Yeah, let's put some french fries in your. In your garden salad. That. That's kind of what we're trying to do here. God.
- [42:14]
A
Nate, Tice, thank you for letting me sit down at the table that, you know, I was a little afraid to ever show my face out again.
- [42:22]
B
Thank you for hopping over that gate that I set up. Appreciate you joining me at the table. Thanks so much, Pablo.
- [42:37]
A
This has been Pablo Torre finds out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time, Sam.