Mission, Possible: The Otherworldly Optimism of Senator Mark Kelly

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Mission, Possible: The Otherworldly Optimism of Senator Mark Kelly"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre (The Athletic)
Guest: Senator Mark Kelly
Date: September 26, 2025
Episode Theme: Exploring the extraordinary journey, perspective, and optimism of Senator Mark Kelly—astronaut, engineer, husband to Gabby Giffords, and political leader—focusing on trauma, public service, science, gun violence, and American democracy.

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Overview

This episode features a candid, insight-rich conversation between Pablo Torre and Senator Mark Kelly, revolving around Mark Kelly’s multifaceted life: his upbringing as the son of New Jersey police officers, his time as an astronaut, enduring the assassination attempt against his wife Gabby Giffords, and his subsequent entry into politics. Central themes include trauma, resilience, the scientific method in governance, gun violence in America, and Kelly’s guiding optimism—even in the face of immense personal and societal challenges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter & The Notebook (02:02–04:29)

• Fixing a chair becomes a metaphor for the complexities of Kelly’s job in the Senate.
• Discussions about notebook habits and how Mark uses notebooks to stay organized:
  • “Sometimes helps me pay attention … I have a stack of them now from being in this job for five years about a foot and a half high.” (Mark Kelly, 03:21)
  • Not much doodling, but notes of “stupid things people say.”

2. From Astronaut to Senator: Scope of Responsibility (04:29–05:36)

• Contrasts technical focus as a pilot/astronaut to the all-encompassing demands of the Senate:
  • “It’s like all the machines. It’s like all the things, all the issues, all the time. Now anybody can ask you a question about any issue at any time.” (Mark Kelly, 05:27)

3. Identity, The Mustache, and Twinhood (05:36–09:04)

• Discusses being an identical twin with Scott Kelly, differentiating themselves at NASA (the mustache story), and related pranks.
• The challenges of public perception and having a shared identity.

4. Science, Expertise & Governance (09:04–11:54)

• Only a handful of engineers in the Senate; Kelly sees this as a problem for informed policy-making.
  • “There have been a number of times where I’ve listened to some of my colleagues, and I’m like, man, you guys, you have no idea what’s going on.” (Mark Kelly, 09:57)
• Frustration with disregard for scientific method in politics and public health, especially regarding vaccines.

5. Relationship with Gabby Giffords (12:38–15:01)

• Met in a US-China Young Leaders forum; first date at Florence State Prison death row.
• Gabby took the initiative; their early dynamic set the stage for future resilience and teamwork.

6. Gabby Giffords: Political Star and Trauma (15:01–24:25)

• Gabby’s trajectory in politics—her early promise, her being shot in January 2011.
  • “I pick up the phone and she says, ‘mark, I don’t know how to tell you this, but Gabby’s been shot.’” (Mark Kelly, 16:34)
• Mark’s experience of being told by media that Gabby had died, only for reports to be corrected.
• The trauma reoriented the couple’s lives permanently.

Notable Quote

• “You don’t know…you’re still stuck on an airplane…wasn’t until I got into the hospital… [the doctor said] ‘I’m not going to allow her to die.’ He’s that kind of doctor.” (Mark Kelly, 20:28)

7. Freedom, Democracy, and Gun Violence (22:10–27:02)

• Describes “Congress on Your Corner” events—direct constituent engagement.
• Details of the shooting, and how Gabby’s name became “Gabby” nationally.
• The rising personal and political dangers of American public service, particularly for women.

8. Recovery and Giffords’ Resilience (27:02–29:36)

• Gabby’s long, harrowing recovery: brain surgery, paralysis, ongoing therapy.
  • “She still has like seven bullet fragments in her head…they had to replace it with a prosthetic skull … while I was in space on the space shuttle.” (Mark Kelly, 27:02)
• Gabby’s mental toughness: “She does not quit … she doesn't give up.”

9. The Mission: Preventing Gun Violence (29:36–36:22)

• Gabby’s advocacy post-recovery, catalyzed by the Newtown massacre and her moving Senate testimony (30:17–31:13).
• Mark and Gabby’s founding of “Giffords” and pushing for sensible gun legislation.
  • “If you want to have a gun for hunting or target practice, if you’re a responsible person, you should be allowed. But if you are a felon, a domestic abuser, or dangerously mentally ill, of course you shouldn’t have a gun.” (Mark Kelly, 33:01–34:15)
• Frustration with federal legislative failures and the power of special interests.

Notable Quote

• “Gun violence has gone up. Now, the most likely reason, if you’re a teenager in the United States or a kid…is you’re going to get shot.” (Mark Kelly, 36:22)

10. Political Obstacles: The Real Story is Money (36:22–41:20)

• Mark insists gun violence is ultimately a campaign finance issue:
  • “It’s less about the specific laws around firearms. It’s about campaign finance reform. That’s how you fix this.” (Mark Kelly, 37:46)
• Discusses PACs, dark money, and the psychological trap where politicians equate their reelection with national survival.

Notable Quote

• “There’s a bunch of them that thinks the country will fall apart if they lose their House seat or their Senate seat. Country’s not gonna be much different if they lose.” (Mark Kelly, 40:03)

11. Policy, Data, and (Un)Popular Truths (41:20–45:05)

• The difficulty of passing gun reforms even amid public tragedy: “Not a lot of people want to hang it out there against big moneyed organizations.”
• The effectiveness (or not) of “good guy with a gun” theories and school security (44:19–44:37).
• Evidence-based policymaking: “States that have stronger gun laws, fewer people get shot, fewer people die … If you could save one kid’s life…” (Mark Kelly, 44:51)

12. The “Astronaut’s Perspective” (48:04–51:31)

• Mark’s view on Earth from space changes his sense of borders and human limits:
  • “Seeing the Earth as a round … floating in the blackness of space. Literally an island…we have no place else to go.” (Mark Kelly, 49:04–50:53)
• Space as a metaphor for both fragility and possibility.

13. Choosing Optimism (51:10–53:38)

• Mark explains his inherent optimism, despite enormous challenges:
  • “I’m a guy who flew four times on a rocket ship built by the lowest bidder. You gotta be an optimist to do that.” (Mark Kelly, 51:10)
• Faith in innovation, science, and America’s capacity to solve problems—AI as the next frontier.
• If properly regulated and guided, technology can benefit, not harm, workers and the nation.

14. Science, Kids, and Hope (54:37–57:35)

• Using children’s literature (“Moustronaut Saves the World”) to teach problem-solving and science.
• Even children can step up and surpass current leaders, with the right inspiration and education.

Memorable Moment

• “Please go to space. We don’t need you here … We have enough podcasters, dare I say.” (Pablo Torre, 57:08)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On science and politics:
  “You shouldn’t really pick and choose and you shouldn’t go with your feelings. I think the president said, well, I feel like this is like the right thing to do. That’s not the answer. The science doesn’t care. If you don’t believe in science, it’s still a real thing.” (Mark Kelly, 10:55–11:19)
• On trauma and resilience:
  “At that moment, both of our lives have changed forever.” (Mark Kelly, 16:34)
• On gun violence:
  "No other developed country has this problem ... It is uniquely an American problem." (Mark Kelly, 33:01)
• On campaign finance:
  "If you fix the money, you fix a lot of other problems...you fix climate change." (Mark Kelly, 40:44)
• On optimism:
  “Despite all of our problems and our political division and weak gun laws and violence ... the future of our country is really bright ... if we stick with science and engineering innovation.” (Mark Kelly, 51:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 02:02 | Chair-fixing, notebook habits, being organized | | 05:36 | Life as a twin, the mustache differentiation | | 09:04 | Science in the Senate, lack of expertise | | 12:38 | Gabby & Mark’s first meeting and relationship | | 15:01 | Gabby’s career, assassination attempt trauma | | 20:28 | Immediate aftermath and resilience | | 27:02 | Gabby’s recovery, Mark in space | | 29:36 | Mission to reduce gun violence, Senate testimony | | 37:46 | Guns, money, and campaign finance | | 41:20 | Political inertia and supposed “difficulties” | | 44:51 | Evidence, state laws & saving lives | | 49:04 | The astronaut’s “Earth-from-space” perspective | | 51:10 | Choosing optimism, scientific innovation | | 54:37 | Teaching the next generation (Moustronaut) | | 57:08 | A light-hearted jab at “podcasters” |

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Tone and Style

The episode oscillates between earnest and playful, as Pablo uses humor and sharp wit to draw out Mark’s candor, optimism, and scientific viewpoint. Mark remains humble, data-driven, and deeply motivated by personal experience and public service.

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Summary for New Listeners

In “Mission, Possible,” listeners are invited into an unusually personal and philosophical conversation about trauma, perseverance, democracy, and the future. Through anecdotes—by turns harrowing and lighthearted—Senator Mark Kelly reveals a worldview shaped by outer space, inner resolve, and the uniquely American struggle to align ideals with reality.

Whether discussing the absurdity of political rhetoric, the pain and hope after tragedy, or the technical intricacies of space and legislation, this episode delivers a compelling message: progress is possible, and science, optimism, and courage remain our best tools for building a better, safer world.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[B]

If you're a child in the United States, the most likely reason you are gonna lose your life is you're gonna get shot.

[A]

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[A]

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[A]

The podcast is largely going to be Senator Mark Kelly watching us try to fix a chair. Fix. There it is. Amazing. Are we rolling? Can we, can we just make sure. Yeah, very good. Awesome. Let's keep the chair. Keep the chair engineering part in. Help them with that side.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Be comfortable this side.

[B]

Yeah, I got it.

[A]

There's just a little bit there it is.

[B]

Just look like I just like how.

[A]

I'm advising the astronaut. Look. Your headset, how to use the technology, your headsets just. I don't know if you've been familiar.

[B]

With how to wear this complicated of complicated engineering. Put my phone on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, let me do that too.

[B]

Camera there, camera there.

[A]

But Just look at me. And we have multiple angles and we'll clean up as we need to.

[B]

I always like doing these with the headsets on and the audio. Sounds good.

[A]

I agree. You brought a notebook?

[B]

I did, but I'm not going to use it. I just had it.

[A]

You're just peacocking with your.

[B]

I just. I just, you know, I. I'll fidget with a pen. Maybe I don't need it.

[A]

Well, I was. I was going to ask. I've had people in this chair who are notebook people. Is that something that you use to organize your thoughts? It is a psychological crutch, Senator. Why do you carry that around?

[B]

You know, sometimes I. I don't take a lot of notes, but I do in meetings and stuff that I could later, you know, go to my staff and say, hey, we need to do, you know, these few things. It also sometimes helps me pay attention. Yeah. You know, when I'm trying to take, you know, notes in, like, long. If you got a lot, a lot of meetings, long day. And I have a bunch of them. Like, I have a stack of them now from being in this job for five years about that, you know, about like a foot and a half high.

[A]

How many. How many of those are just doodles?

[B]

I don't have many doodles in here, but I do have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes, like, quotes like, people say stupid things.

[A]

Yeah, I want Mark Kelly's log of stupid. People have said stupid.

[B]

Like, you know, people in the. In the Senate sometimes say, you know, I got in here, like, talk to our governor about a road that needs to be open, like up by the Grand Canyon would be an example of, like, these businesses are struggling, Right. Because of the fire on the North Rim. And I talked to these business owners and about talking to, like, you know, the governor about some of these issues.

[A]

The degree of just, like, stuff that your brain needs to manage in your capacity now as senator. And by the way, I'm going to call you Senator, not Captain.

[B]

Call me anything. All right, Mark, that's fine. That's the thing about this job that, I mean, I obviously expected it, but in my previous jobs, whether, you know, from flying airplanes in the Navy off of an aircraft carrier. Right. I got basically one thing I need to know how to do well, and then later, as a test pilot, bigger world of aerospace engineering and evaluation of airplanes and, you know, understanding a lot of technical stuff. And then as an astronaut, you know, science, engineering, the operation of a very complex machine. But then you get to the Senate and it's like every issue that you could possibly face in the world. Is part of your job a complex.

[A]

Machine of a different kind?

[B]

It's like all the machines. It's like all the things, all the issues, all the time. Now it's like anybody can ask you a question about any issue at any time.

[A]

Right? That's why I consider it very dangerous for you to be here. You're an authority, allegedly, on so many things, and I could ask you anything. And the first question I have for you, where the. Did your mustache go?

[B]

That's a good question. You used to have a mustache for a long time. You know, it's in the Navy. As a pilot in the Navy, that's kind of what you do, right? You get them. You're in your 20s, and you're flying cool airplanes, and then everybody gets a mustache. So I got the mustache. My brother got the mustache. And then in 1996, we both were selected to be astronauts. So now we're working in the same office with all these people at NASA, and we're identical twins.

[A]

I was gonna say it's very funny and confusing to imagine Scott Kelly, Captain Scott Kelly and Captain Mark Kelly.

[B]

And they look the same.

[A]

Twins.

[B]

Yeah. So the problem that that presented was every day at work, and we lived this as kids, but then we kind of separated for a while, and then we're back together. We're at NASA at the Johnson Space center in the astronaut office. And every single day, somebody would call me Scott, and somebody would call him Mark, and you'd have to correct him. And it gets really annoying. So my brother eventually said, well, the hell with this. Shaved off his mustache.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

To differentiate ourselves. So we didn't have to deal with that anymore. And that went on from about 1997 to after I left NASA. But then when my brother was getting ready to go into space for a year in 2016, I was like, now's my opportunity here. And I was actually trying to mess with people because. So on the day he went to launch, I shaved my mustache off so people would think that maybe that was me that went into space for a year, and then he stayed on Earth. So that was the moment on his launch date for a year in space in 2016, I shaved mine off. And then I was like, ah, I'll just leave it.

[A]

Just, just. Just to clarify, though, basically what you're saying is your brother went to space, left the earth in your care, and you decided to immediately just start pranking.

[B]

That was the goal, but nobody fell for it.

[A]

You're growing up identical twins. Your parents did What?

[B]

They're both police officers in New Jersey, right? 30 minutes from here. West Orange.

[A]

West Orange. Okay, so West Orange is. Finest are trying to solve one of their great.

[B]

Thomas Edison had his factory in West Orange. So don't get. Hey, not the finest thing.

[A]

As someone who is born and raised and remains forever a New York elitist, I can only look down my nose at the struggle that your parents had in discerning you and your brother. Which is which.

[B]

I was the original and my brother was the cheap copy six minutes later.

[A]

Yeah. Many are saying that's what.

[B]

That's what they say now.

[A]

The whole notion of, hey, you've done this in the time that you guys almost Freaky Friday, the International Space Station.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Your brother thinks what of your station in life? What does he think of you being in politics? What does he think of you being this guy now?

[B]

I never asked him. I think he's glad I'm in this job. And I think he believes that I bring a certain kind of thought process to the. To government that not everybody has. Not many engineers.

[A]

I was going to ask in, like.

[B]

The senate, out of 100 people, there are. I think there are three engineers. Me, I have a master's degree in aeronautical engineering, undergrad in marine engineering, which is like power plant engineering. Alex Padilla has a bachelor's degree, I think, in aeronautical engineering, and Martin Heinrich, who is a mechanical engineer. That's it, as far as I know.

[A]

It feels like in your notebook, there's a list of people who know what the science is, and it's not a very long list, not a long list in Congress that makes these decisions that impact every single American's life.

[B]

There have been a number of times where I've listened to some of my colleagues, and I'm like, man, you guys, you have no idea what's going on with this. You don't know what you're talking about that's happened. I'm not going to tell you who.

[A]

Yeah, no, I was going to say, I've been hearing people try to pronounce acetaminophen this week, and I'm like, I don't know if this is going to go great.

[B]

First, effective immediately, the FDA will be.

[A]

Notifying physicians that the use of acetyl. Well, let's see how we say that.

[B]

Acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Is that okay? Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol.

[A]

During pregnancy can be associated with a very increased risk of autism. Donald Trump finds out is a very different podcast. It is full of Revelations every single day.

[B]

I think you gotta, you either believe in science and you listen to scientists and you rely on solid scientific research. You shouldn't really pick and choose and you shouldn't go with your feelings. I think the president said, well, I feel like this is like the right thing to do. That's not the answer. The MMR, I think should be taken separately.

[A]

This is based on what I feel.

[B]

The science doesn't care. If you don't believe in science, it's still a real thing. Right. So it's good to put, you know, good researchers on problems, you know, look at things for an extended period of time, have a big cohort that is part of your experiment and then follow the data. I've seen from this administration. A, they don't really care about the science and the data and that's, that's dangerous. I think that's going to hurt some people, especially like with things like vaccines.

[A]

Well, I think that the scientific method, a big part of it in my understanding is that when you don't like the data, you just fire the person.

[B]

Who collects the data and you hire somebody who's not a scientist to run our entire health system.

[A]

No.

[B]

Or not a medical doctor, not a scientist.

[A]

Let's just get like a guy, a nation of guys. That's what it says. I believe in our Constitution. How did you and your wife, Representative Gabby Giffords, how did you guys meet?

[B]

We met on a trip to China about 20 years ago, 22 years ago, something like that. It was a, like a young leaders forum, a bunch of people from the United States, bunch from China and the whole idea is find some mid career people. On our side. It was some folks in government or the military, folks from business. The arts guy named Damian Wetzel who runs Juilliard, who was a ballet dancer, was part of our group architect that I was out to dinner with last night, Greg Pascarelli, who runs an architecture firm called Shop. But this was over 20 years ago. She was a state senator, I was an astronaut and then similar people on the Chinese side. And it's kind of trying to build some, you know, relationships.

[A]

And in the, in the movie of your meet cute, is it electric?

[B]

I mean it was actually the second trip a year later that Gabby asked me to go on a date.

[A]

She asked you?

[B]

She asked me on a date.

[A]

What's up with that, Captain?

[B]

Our first date was the Florence State Prison death row. She said she needed somebody to come with her kind of halfway between Tucson and Phoenix. And she said nobody really wants to go with Me to visit death row, and I'm like, I'm in. Sounds cool. So that was our. That was our first date.

[A]

Did you know it was a date?

[B]

I did not. I found out later. She. She didn't tell me that until later. She. She had an angle.

[A]

So I'm getting a very sharp picture of what your dynamic is like already.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I have her as the person who is, frankly, taking a leadership role. And you are a coward.

[B]

So far in the story, she was the one who, like, you know, wanted to get to know each other a little bit better. And no better place, right, than a. Than a prison.

[A]

I mean, you guys, presumably, you stay in touch. You go on actual dates that are mutually disclosed.

[B]

We did, like, we went to dinner that night, and then, you know, and then after that, it was. I wound up seeing her every couple weeks for a while, and then I would say probably six months in. It was like kind of a real relationship.

[A]

Right. I mean, just for those who are unfamiliar with Gabby Giffords and her political trajectory.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is a supernova in American politics.

[B]

This is a victory for all of us tonight.

[A]

Not just the Democrats, but the independents.

[B]

The Republicans, the greens, the libertarians, and the vegetarians. I want to thank each of them. There were so many people to thank tonight. My fiance, Mark Kelly, my parent. Yeah. There was a magazine and there was a she. She had this whole page talking about her. She ran her family's tire and automotive business. She was in the state House. Now she's in the state Senate. Maybe someday she'll run for Congress. And in the corner, in the lower left or right corner, there was another little article about a state senator from Illinois, Barack Obama, on the same page.

[A]

But like the smaller real estate.

[B]

The smaller.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he got the inside.

[B]

He got the little corner.

[A]

She had the whole receiving votes.

[B]

Yes, she got the whole page. He got the little. He got the little corner.

[A]

And so the date for people who don't know was January 8, 2011. And you that day were where doing what?

[B]

I was in Houston, Texas. It was a Saturday morning. I was training for what was going to be my fourth space shuttle mission. My second mission as the commander was also going to be the last flight of Space Shuttle Endeavor, which is a pretty big deal to get picked for one of the last shuttle flights. You know, it's kind of sad. The space shuttle is going to be retired. You know, it's an incredibly. An incredible vehicle. I mean, there's never been anything like it. So it was a Saturday morning. I was at home with my Kids, Claudia and Claire. And I was talking to Claudia about something, some dude. And I get a call from Gabby's chief of staff. And I pick up the phone and she says, mark, I don't know how to tell you this, but Gabby's been shot. Updating our top story now, a gunman shot Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and several others today at an outdoor event in Tucson, Arizona. Congresswoman Giffords is a Democrat just beginning her third term in the house. She is 40 years old and the wife of astronaut Mark Kelly. And the immediate thing that goes through my head is, okay, what do we do now? She's probably like shot in the arm or the shoulder or something was what was running through my mind. She didn't have much information. We hung up. I put the phone down at a pool table in, in the house. I remember putting it on the pool table. And then a few minutes later, I thought to myself, did I really just get that call? And I walked back over and I pick up the phone to see that I had this incoming call. I was like, this is like, crazy. And then either she called me back or I called her back. It's disputed, you know, after all these years, I'm not sure. But then we, when I spoke to her again a few minutes later, she says, okay, she's been shot in the head. And that is really like the gut punch. Much more significant now. You know, at that moment that both of our lives have changed forever. We've got multiple, multiple, multiple calls. They have not called us for assistance. I'm assuming they're quite Flight 106 at this point. We've been informed Gabrielle Giffords is involved. Multiple parties out on the sidewalk. I believe I'm hearing county rolling up right now. And then I have to figure out how am I going to get to Tucson in a hurry. I had a friend with a private airplane. So we get eventually, like an hour later, I'm on his airplane and the airplane and TV on it were flying to Tucson. And then cnn, msnbc, Fox News all pronounce her dead. Hello, I'm Martin Savage, CNN center in Atlanta. We are following breaking news coming out of Tucson, Arizona. Jamie, have one very reliable source on Capitol Hill confirming that Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has died. Local reports. I just, I mean, it, it is just so devastating. Like your world has just crumbled. And I go into the bathroom. My kids say that's the first time they've ever seen me, like, really shaken and broken up. And I got up and walked into the bathroom. And then 30 minutes later. Is anybody injured? Did you say Gabrielle Gford was hit? She's hit. I believe he's breathing. She was breathing. She had to pulse. They say. Nope, made a mistake. She's still alive.

[A]

Can you explain what it feels like to be told via every national news network that your wife has been killed, only to then discover.

[B]

Yeah, you don't know. Right. And you're. You're still stuck on an airplane. You got an hour flight, you gotta land, you gotta get there. And it wasn't until I got into the hospital, into the room with the trauma surgeon, a guy named Peter Rees, former Navy trauma surgeon. But he said something like, I'm not going to allow her to die. He's that kind of doctor.

[A]

That's what I would like.

[B]

That's what you like my spouse doctor to tell me. Yeah. And what happened to Charlie Kirk brought me back to that day. And I just, I mean, I really feel for Erica Kirk and how horrible this has been for her and what that felt like for me on January 2011, what she went through. Now, in our case, Gabby survived. I mean, these kids going to spend their whole lives, they won't even. They're so young. They're probably not even have memories of their dad. I mean, how awful is that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Charlie Kirk and I didn't agree on hardly anything.

[A]

He was a constituent.

[B]

He was a constituent. Yep. And we've got. I would help him as a constituent and, and, but politically, we're like on different islands. But one thing I did agree with was his right to be there, talking about issues that he cared about. I would fight, I'd go to war for. To defend his right to do that.

[A]

And you lived your life in the service of that very, I would say, increasingly endangered premise as well. The, the thing that your wife was doing, by the way, for those who aren't familiar with just what she was.

[B]

Up to, she was speaking to her constituents.

[A]

A series of meetings called Congress on.

[B]

Your corner, standing outside of a Safeway where people would line up to talk to her. Kind of similar to what Charlie Kirk was doing, smaller scale, but she was a member of Congress and just talking to people individually about what do they care about and what problems do they have that she can help solve. She'd have staff members there to support, you know, this, this event and get people's information and. Yeah, it's all, you know, it's about freedom of speech and listening to your constituents.

[A]

Yes. Being accessible as a person working in American politics in the way that American politics was ultimately I thought designed to enable and just the, the details on this, I mean it was a point.

[B]

Blank range about this distance.

[A]

Yeah. This table, you and me, above her left eye. Six people were killed by the gunman, including a US District court judge. The gunman used a semi automatic pistol with a 33 round magazine.

[B]

Yeah, Glock. Same exact gun I flew in combat with. Glock 9 millimeter, but a high capacity magazine. So the gun with the magazine, it looks like a Uzi because the magazine sticks out the bottom of the, of the pistol grip.

[A]

And had Gabby or Gabrielle, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, I used to call her Gabrielle. And the way that changed was.

[A]

As.

[B]

Many of you are aware, earlier today, a number of people were shot in Tucson, Arizona that day. President Obama goes to the podium in the White House. Gabby Giffords was and says Gabby Giffords, starts to say Gabrielle. He stops halfway and says Gabby Giffords. And after that everybody called her Gabby. So even I changed eventually.

[A]

So what you're saying is that the dude with the inset on the National Journal bridge changed her name, Changed the name of the person with the big spread?

[B]

Yes. Before that I think the only her mom and dad called her Gabby and her sister. Yeah, but almost everybody else called her Gabrielle. Like on her, on her signs it was Gabrielle Giffords, her staff and even me.

[A]

Well, the question of like how one and how one's identity is reoriented after something like this, the name being just one of course feature of the evolution here, but truly like the question of had this been contemplated, this possibility, an attempted political assassination, had she thought about that prior to it happening?

[B]

She was worried about it. There was an incident where a guy shows up at one of her events and rather agitated, gun falls out of his waistband and falls on the floor. He was not intending to do anything, but it was rather startling that this guy brought a gun to her events. So she was starting to get worried. There were threats. This was also at a time where there were like heightened political tensions and we were divided. It was 2011, more than halfway through the first Obama administration. We had the financial crisis in like 2008. We're kind of on the tail end of that, but we, we were rather divided politically. It's gotten worse since then. And I think Gabby was the first, as far as we could tell, the first female politician in our country that somebody tried to assassinate like somebody in Congress. And it got a lot of, you know, a lot of attention. And six people died, including a nine year old girl, Christina Taylor Green, who was born on 9 11, 2001, she would have been 24 years old this, this month and had like very high minded ideas about service and democracy and just wanted to meet her congresswoman.

[A]

Right, the type of.

[B]

Just there to talk to Gabby. Yes, we want him to care, we want them to show up. But I'll tell you what a good thing would be, is to get people off the phones. You know, doing the politics on social media the way, you know, it's just like a lot of bias. You get fed your own opinion, you don't really see the other side. And it seems like the algorithms just push us further and further.

[A]

No question. Yeah, no question.

[B]

So it'd be better to do it in person.

[A]

I do want to get to the premise of your wife survives and the brain surgery, the piece of the skull. Could you just explain?

[B]

Yeah, so she got shot, you know, right above her eye, left side. Affects her right side of her body. So she's paralyzed. She can't really move her arm. She can move her right leg a little bit. She's got vision issues to the right. She still has like seven bullet fragments, you know, in her head. And they had to, because about the size of my hand, you know, the skull was damaged enough that they eventually had to replace it with a prosthetic skull. They did that, by the way, while I was in space on the space shuttle. Of course, she had to have her final brain surgery on the day. Actually, literally at the time I was rendezvousing with the International Space Station. And as a commander of the space shuttle, you have to fly the space shuttle manually to the space station. You gotta get in front of it and then you gotta fly it within a couple inches of the space station. The accuracy, and you're Both going at 17,500 miles an hour around the, around the earth. So that surgery happened while I was doing, doing surgery that. Yes. And then she was in the hospital for six months going through, you know, this extensive rehab. She still does rehab today, 14 years later, speech therapy and physical therapy. And because you don't ever fully recover from that kind of injury, most people don't survive. I mean, thank God she survived.

[A]

Oh, it's shocking to go and for me to. Again, I was aware of this generally, but not specifically researching this. And now I'm looking at what she had to overcome and it is insane.

[B]

It's, it's kind of probabilistically. Yeah, it's insane. Yeah, I mean, 90% of people that have that kind of injury and 95% die and most don't, you know, recover to A point where you can have like a decent quality of life and, and, and work and accomplish things.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But she did because she's tough. I mean, she doesn't, she does not quit. She is not a quitter. She doesn't give up. She doesn't think a lot about what happened. It's not, not a lot of like, poor me, you know, this horrible thing happened to me. She's like, okay, this is the situation. She is a public servant at the highest level. It's one of, it's actually good for me. You know, she understands how hard this job is, serving in Congress, being in the U.S. senate. And I've got like the most supportive spouse, I think, of any member of Congress. And it's because she's done the job. So she, she knows what it's like.

[A]

I was looking at the timeline to that point and I mean, it was less than two years after she gets shot in the head and it's December 12, 2012. It's Newtown, Connecticut. And of course, what we know is seared into our brains. If you pay any degree of attention, it's 20 children between six and seven, six educators, the shooter's mother, the shooter himself. All of these people die, are killed. It's just over a year after Gabby Gabrielle gets shot. She gives a speech. And I want to play that speech and watch it together because I hadn't seen this before.

[B]

For Democrats and Republicans, speaking is difficult, but I need to say something important. Violence is a big problem. Problem. Too many children are dying. Too many children.

[A]

We must do something.

[B]

It will be hard, but the time is now.

[A]

You must act. Be bold.

[B]

Be courageous. Americans are counting on you.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

She can deliver the goods. Empowerable only.

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[A]

This is now the mission. This is the defining mission of your household.

[B]

Yeah, mine and hers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the time, I mean. Right. Right after that. Well, I think we already started an organization to focus on this issue of gun violence. Makes our country stand out in the worst of ways. No other developed country has this problem. England, France, Japan, Australia, New Zealand. None. It is uniquely an American problem. And I am a supporter of the Second Amendment. I mean, I have firearms. People have the right to defend themselves and our families. And if you want to have if now, anyway, if you want to have a gun for hunting or target practice, if you're a responsible person, you should be a lonophile. Yes. But if you are a felon, if you are a domestic abuser, if you're dangerously mentally ill, of course you shouldn't have a gun and it shouldn't be easy for you to get one. But the laws in our country make it easy for those people to get a gun. If you can't pass the background check, go to the gun show where you don't have to do a background check or just buy one from somebody you meet on the street. No background check required. These are ridiculous laws we have in this country. And that's what that was about.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To try to convince that that was the Senate Judiciary Committee. Some of my colleagues today were in that meeting. I testified in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee. I'm probably one of the few people in the Senate that actually testified in front of the Senate as well. We aren't here as victims. We're speaking to you today. As Americans, we're a lot like many of our fellow citizens following this debate about gun violence. We're moderates. Gabby was a Republican long before she was a Democrat. We're both gun owners and we take that right and the responsibilities that come with it very seriously. And we watch with horror when the news breaks to yet another tragic shooting. And we got close. We got some Republicans to vote on this Manchin Toomey background check bill to require background checks before you buy a gun. We also had some Democrats voted against it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Still pissed off at those people.

[A]

Yeah, they're in that notebook, too, I bet.

[B]

Not this one. An old one. We got close. We did not get it across the finish line, but Gabby and I started an organization called Giffords and have been doing this as a mission for over a decade now and have made a lot of progress in states like 750 pieces of legislation passed in over 30 states. And this is her mission, clearly, for the rest of her life. She wants to save the lives of kids. Used to be in our country that especially teenagers, the most likely reason they would die would be a car accident. Well, cars got safer and we changed laws and that has gone gradually down. Gun violence has gone up. Now, the most likely reason, if you're a teenager in the United States or a kid, actually, if you're a child in the United States, the most likely reason you are going to lose your life is you're going to get shot.

[A]

But then universal background checks, as you alluded to, failed assault weapons ban, failed high capacity magazine ban, failed. And federally. Federally. Yeah, federally. Among the people who were there to listen and take stock of yet the latest tragedy that instructs them as to why this need not be a left or right thing. And it brings you invariably to 2020. We're going to skip over yet more mass shootings, yet more deaths, but to get to 2020. And it turns out that you're going to. You're going to run for office.

[B]

And that's why tonight, it's not about celebrating. Tonight is about getting to work. Now, some of you watching tonight did not vote for me. And that's okay. I'm gonna be your senator, too. Yeah, I didn't want to. I would have much preferred Gabby being in the Senate, and she would have been. And it would not have ever been a thing that I would have done. But it wasn't because of this issue that I did this. You know, it's part of it and it's. It's a problem I would really, really like to solve. I'll put it way at the top of the list. And I know how to solve it. It's less about the specific laws around firearms. It's about campaign finance reform.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's how you fix this. Oh, the whole notice, fix that system.

[A]

Special interests.

[B]

Yeah, special interests. Of ruining this country.

[A]

Why isn't that more obvious to Americans that this is a problem that is being exacerbated and funded by corporations, Whether.

[B]

It'S the oil industry, the gun industry. We have a. Just a system of injecting massive amounts of money into our political system to fund campaigns. Some of it comes from grassroots donors. That's a good thing. I think people should be able to support candidates. But when it's dark money, money you can't even track, that comes from corporations and people through things like 501C4s. We often think Super PAC. Super PAC's disclosed 501C4 social advocacy organizations. The money is often hidden, but also affects elections. I think people often run for office for the right reasons. They want to serve our country, they want to make change. Maybe a specific issue, maybe it's more broad then once they get there. You see, a lot of people think, well, the country will fall apart if I lose my job as a U.S. house member. So I have to make decisions. This isn't me. I mean, I make decisions all the time. Probably not in the best interest of me in a further election. But you see people that make decisions based solely on whether or not they think it'll help them or hurt them in the next election. And that's where they go wrong.

[A]

And just because the psychology. I want to explain one of my favorite shows I'm watching lately is andor the Star wars show. And basically it's.

[B]

I heard that's really good.

[A]

It's amazing. And it's basically the most accessible metaphor for American politics that's not about politics explicitly, but it is about just how people make decisions to do fundamentally horrific things but justify it to themselves. Yeah, and what you just established is what I've been thinking about as I watch television in both fictionalized and non fictionalized forms, which is there seems to be a theory that a lot of these politicians who are in the pocket of the NRA that they have, in which if I'm not in this role, things will be worse and therefore all is permitted to get me to remain in power 100%.

[B]

There's a bunch of them that thinks the country will fall apart if they lose their House seat or their Senate seat. Country's not gonna be much different if they lose.

[A]

We're running the experiment of what it's like with you in it.

[B]

So they're putting themselves before the country. You should never do that. The country should always come first. So you should always make decisions in these jobs based on what? And we might disagree. I mean, I'll disagree with some of my colleagues on what I think the best decision is to build a better country. But it should be about the nation first, not themselves as an individual. But the one thing we should do is get the massive Amount of money, especially corporate money, out of the political system.

[A]

Yeah, the whole question.

[B]

And then you fix not only this problem, you can fix a lot of other problems. You fixed the climate change problem.

[A]

But it just seems to me like from a purely. What is in the middle of the Venn diagram between a lot of the rhetoric we're hearing from the right in its most philosophical form, and what the left says they want is getting power back into the hands of actual Americans as opposed to the engineered financial instruments that have been corrupting the country that we say we want to save. It just feels like it's poppy. It would be popular, Senator.

[B]

I think it's popular. It's still hard to get done. And I talked to my, some of my Republican colleagues about this and they, they get it. They're like, you know, why do we have these big giant, you know, super PACs involved in all this? And I'm like, well, why don't we get rid of them? And they're like, well, it's complicated. I don't know if now's the right time. Oh, well, there's. Some of them are not as bad as others. And nobody, not a lot of people want to hang it out there against big moneyed organizations. Right. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I will. I mean, I, I wish we could have the vote tomorrow, just abolish them same.

[A]

I'm looking at just the polling data, by the way, speaking to the mechanism of.

[B]

Yeah, it probably doesn't poll well.

[A]

Oh, my God. And by the way, just on the question of after Charlie Kirk's killing, this is a poll taken for the Desiree News and University of Utah. 30% of Americans now support stricter gun laws, including 26% of American men.

[B]

Only 30%. Are you sure that's right?

[A]

That doesn't have changed their minds?

[B]

Oh, have changed their minds.

[A]

There you go. Have increased, have increased their desire to see stricter gun laws. Is it time to just pass the Charlie Kirk Gun Control Act? The cruel poetry of all of this is telling me is that here was a guy who said, quote, it's worth a cost of some gun deaths to protect the Second Amendment. He said, quote, if our money and our sporting events and our airplanes have armed guards, why don't our children.

[B]

Well, a lot of, A lot of schools do now because kids get shot in schools all the time. It wasn't like that when I was a kid. We worried in the 1970s and 80s about nuclear war, especially living in New Jersey. I just think about that a lot. I was after the Whole duck and cover thing. But then decades later, kids in school practice for mass shooters walking through the front door with semi automatic assault rifles.

[A]

Does that make kids safer?

[B]

Having an armed guard, having an armed.

[A]

Guard doing these drills? I'm just wondering if the answer to this threat to our children is more weapons. Well, I would say good guys with a gun theory.

[B]

I would, I would say in general the good guy with the gun theory probably doesn't work well usually from all the data shows where there are more firearms, more people get shot and more people get killed. But I, I would say if you had the right security guard, well trained on the right day and things happened a certain way. Yeah, I think as you know, the right guy, retired cop who's like on top of things could stop a really bad thing from happening. Sure, it's unfortunate. We live in a world where there has to be security guards and what are we going to do? We're going to put them everywhere. Well, that's every football game, every place.

[A]

It's just the logical.

[B]

And the whole good guy with the gun thing doesn't like the citizen carrying a firearm. Going to save, save the day doesn't generally work really well because now you have, you get into any kind of conflict if there's a gun involved, somebody often gets shot.

[A]

Well, it speaks to the larger, like what's the pushback from those who are saying, hey, it's not even worth expending the political capital on these regulations that Senator Kelly is proposing because it's not going to work.

[B]

Well, if you could save one kid's life and I could tell you that states that have stronger gun laws, fewer people get shot, fewer people die. You just have to look around the country. These numbers are published by.

[A]

There you go with your numbers.

[B]

The numbers, the data, I mean it varies a lot. If you could cut the death rate down by, you know, something like 80% if you strengthen your gun laws in a state. So that's why Giffords has been focus on that in the absence of being able to do strong federal legislation. But ultimately, I mean if you really want to tackle this, it would be good to have universal background checks, red flag laws where somebody can say, hey, you know, my brother in law seems to have lost his mind lately and has a couple firearms, we should at least temporarily get those guns out of their hands. You see so many times when something like this happens, family members around the person knew and they often say, well I wish we could have done something about it. Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF Today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a 30 day money back guaranteed. Love your service or get your money back, no questions asked. Boost Mobile offers the coverage, network speed and service you're used to, but at more affordable prices. Why pay more if you don't have to? You can get an unlimited plan for $25 a month that will never increase in price ever. No price hikes, no multi line requirements, no stress. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them [e-mail] After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will $25 per month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.

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[A]

As I contemplate Utah State legislature recently allowing for open and concealed carry without a permit on college campuses. And I'm looking at of course the Mauser 98 bolt action rifle that was used by Charlie Kirk's killer. It was his grandfather's I am left contemplating how what you experienced while watching the television on that jet and then seeing your wife survive was the most definitional, the most cinematic near death experience that a politician working for our government can have. And I also now am wondering, you know as an astronaut, when you get so far up and you see how small we are, something happens to your almost literal perspective. Can you explain just like how all of these perspectives that you've accumulated kind of like shape how you think about this?

[B]

Well, I think for everybody it might be a little bit different. I mean for Me seeing the Earth as a round. Let me say that again. Round for anybody who's doubting out there. Round ball floating in the blackness of space. Literally an island in our solar system, and we have no place else to go. Right. You know, Elon wants to go to Mars. I think it's a good idea to go to Mars. We're not living on Mars. Mars is a sh. Tty planet to live on.

[A]

Literally can't sustain life, I'm told.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, think we got carbon dioxide problems. I mean, we have less than 1% carbon dioxide.

[A]

How many carbon credits do we need to offset Mars?

[B]

You're Talking about over 98% carbon dioxide in that atmosphere.

[A]

Sounds like a bad business, but you.

[B]

See this island in our solar system and we've got no other place to go. And you look down and you don't see borders between countries and you get this strong sense how we are all in this together. And then you look at the, like how thin the atmosphere is. That's like a holy crap moment that you're like looking. You're like, wow, it's like a. Looks like a contact lens on an eyeball. Really thin. Think about this for a second Runway at LaGuardia. It's probably 10, 12,000ft long. If you put that up on its end, 10,000ft is about half the atmosphere, molecule wise. About half. It's like nothing. People look up and think, oh, we have this big giant thing that protects us from the vacuum of space and from solar radiation and gamma radiation. It's rather thin and we don't do a very good job taking care of it.

[A]

It's hard, I imagine, to be an optimist, given that perspective in one way. And yet everything I read about you and your wife and the mission you are on now demands optimism.

[B]

Well, I'm also just inherently like an optimist. Right. I'm a guy who flew four times on a rocket ship built by the lowest bidder. You gotta be an optimist to do that. Like every time you climb in that thing, you're like, oh, man, I hope this goes well.

[A]

Where did they decide to save the money on this?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

This is what you're contemplating is you're rocketing into space?

[B]

Yeah, right. I mean, should they have. Would it would have been better if they went for the guy that was going to spend some more, the company that was going to spend a little bit more money?

[A]

Right. Is the incline of this chair the only savings that they chose?

[B]

No, I'm an optimist and I Think despite all of our problems and our political division and weak gun laws and violence in our country, I think the future of our country is really bright for a number of reasons. One is, you know, just think like culturally about if we stick with science and engineering innovation, we've got the best innovators, the best inventors, the best scientists. Now I'm unhappy this administration is not investing in science. That's temporary. I think we'll get back on track. I think AI is a great opportunity to grow the economy, create more jobs. You often think about people losing jobs and that is a risk. I just released a plan on AI. What do we need to do now to make sure we don't have massive job loss? Without a plan for what are people going to do next? And the issues around, you know, the infrastructure that needs to be built so people's utility costs don't go up and electricity and water. But I think if we have the right plan, we can use this to solve a ton of problems in medicine and chemistry.

[A]

Right. Well, just the idea of like, what you're fundamentally talking about is something that's a through line in this, which is that there are things that are coming our way that we have a choice on how to confront. And what seems to be what science and data and evidence is suggesting is that we should look for a way to regulate such that the people who are the everyday voters of our country are not going to get massively.

[B]

Yeah. Left behind. Yeah.

[A]

By the people who are going to profit off of this in an unregulated economy, which is the story, by the way, of our country. Yeah.

[B]

We want to nudge this thing in the right direction where we can, our economy can benefit, but workers can benefit too. We can't leave middle class and working class people behind. If we leave them behind, we're screwed. If people don't have jobs, they don't have money. But if we do this in a way where we can, you know, help people and retrain them and maybe, you know, have some additional unemployment help to get them to their next career. And we're thoughtful about it and we have a plan, I think we could get to a place where this could be a huge opportunity, you know, for us. And if we screw it up, China's going to be ahead of us.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I think we could screw it up. But I also think if we can do some smart things up front, this could be a win for everybody.

[A]

The metaphor I often return to is, are we going to react to any number of these crises that Confront us as if it is an asteroid about to hit our planet and we just throw our hands up and say, I guess this is just how it's going to be. And only yesterday did I realize that this was a question that you have actually, in a literary form, contemplated. I am not endorsing this five year old Violet, though, is that is the disclaimer journalistically I must make. This is a book that you wrote. It is called Moustronaut Saves the World, which I read this morning. A rogue asteroid is hurtling towards the planet and this crew of mice are called upon to serve their country and their species. And the thing I would like to point to is not even the illustration of the mice. I would like to flip as we're going through and just contemplate the depiction of the President because I noticed something as I was doing my research into what did Senator Kelly used to look like? What did Gabrielle Giffords. What does she look like?

[B]

He thinks she looks a little bit like Gabby.

[A]

I'm just saying.

[B]

Just saying.

[A]

I'm just saying, just a little. Maybe just. Madam President in this book suggests that there is an optimistic vision not only for the role that our smallest among us might play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But truly in just a vision that. I don't know if you demanded that the President.

[B]

Oh, I picked how the President was going to look in that book.

[A]

I had a sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But this book is about, I mean, fundamentally, it's about like, you know, using like science to solve problems.

[A]

Yes, it is, it is, dare I say, for all ages in a way that I have never been more depressed to proclaim.

[B]

I've got another book idea about like, you know, teaching little kids the skills they would need to be an astronaut someday.

[A]

Which is all to say that you plan to immediately, as soon as possible, have America's children be more qualified than the people otherwise occupying the chambers that you currently are traveling in in the Senate.

[B]

That would, that would be a, that would be a big win. You know, a lot of kids, you still hear, hear the astronaut thing from little kids all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know what? You also hear a lot from kids as they get older that they want to be influencers. Oh, God. Content creators.

[A]

As, as, as someone who resembles that career trajectory. If I may address briefly, America's Children with your endorsement. Please go to space. We don't need you here. We don't need you here. Doing. We. We have enough podcasters, dare I say.

[B]

Senator, and read a book and stop the doom scrolling that people do.

[A]

Except when it comes to this show. In which case you should like and.

[B]

Subscribe, right and watch at every opportunity.

[A]

That is Senator Mark Kelly's words, not my own. Captain Senator mustache or not, this has.

[B]

Been a pleasure, been great. Thank you. Thank you for having me on.

[A]

Pablo Torre finds Out is produced by Walter Averroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor and Chris Tominiello. Our studio engineering by RG Systems Sound design by Andrew Burcic and NGW Post Theme song as always by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.

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[A]

Together, as a mutual insurance company, we're.

[B]

Built for our customers and prioritize your needs. Amica empathy is our best policy. Call 87741Amica for a free coverage review.