Peak Humanity: Why Darren Aronofsky's Heroes Don't Wear Capes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Peak Humanity: Why Darren Aronofsky’s Heroes Don’t Wear Capes
Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Darren Aronofsky (Director, Writer, Producer)

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Overview

In this deep-dive episode, Pablo Torre sits down with acclaimed filmmaker Darren Aronofsky for an expansive conversation that fuses nostalgia, New York lore, sports, cinema, and evolving ideas of heroism. Ostensibly pegged to Aronofsky's new film Caught Stealing, the discussion traverses Aronofsky's life and career, the meaning of heroism, the texture of ‘90s New York, and the surprising optimism that has entered Aronofsky’s work. Throughout, the tone blends sincere curiosity, wit, and the vivid banter of two New Yorkers bonding over their rapidly changing city.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Nostalgia & New York City Identity

(Starts ~00:36, deepens throughout)

• Roll-N-Roaster as a Symbol: Aronofsky’s obsession with iconic Brooklyn eatery Roll-N-Roaster serves as a springboard for exploring identity, memory, and the secret world of New York institutions.
  • Quote: "That to us was like the place, like, you know, two o'clock in the morning, you come and you get the roast beef with the cheese on top of it..." (Darren Aronofsky, 01:44)
• Torrest and Aronofsky commiserate about “authentic” New York, recalling teenage wanderings, vanished landmarks, and what it means to be a “real New Yorker.”
  • Quote: "So we're total snobs. No, I mean, because we did pay dues." (Aronofsky, 36:10)
• Changing city and shared lore: Discussion of gentrification, the vanishing “edge” of neighborhoods, and the feeling that each generation mourns “what it used to be.”

2. Cinema & The Evolution of the Hero

(Begins ~12:25 with direct commentary on genre, peaks throughout)

• Aronofsky’s Twist on the Hero’s Journey:
  • How Caught Stealing signals a new chapter for Aronofsky—focusing on a relatable, human protagonist (Hank), rather than his trademark antiheroes.
  • Quote: "I kind of wanted to do… an American hero out there who’s just a guy that a lot of us can relate to, that a lot of us can hope for…" (Aronofsky, 11:54)
• Empathy & The Power of Movies: Aronofsky reflects on the unique emotional participation movies demand from audiences—contrasting this immersive experience with modern, fragmented attention spans.
  • Quote: "...The act of watching a movie, it's an exercise in empathy... you're in someone else's shoes. Literally. You're like, in their head..." (Aronofsky, 11:00)
• From Trauma to Joy: Pablo notes that Caught Stealing is unusually optimistic for Aronofsky. The director describes being inspired to make movies that unite and uplift amid a climate of excessive cynicism.
  • Quote: "Things are so overwhelmingly cynical that optimism feels punk rock." (Torre, 28:02)

3. Sports, Genre, and Narrative Experimentation

(Sports movie discussion begins ~8:41, with references throughout)

• Aronofsky gently pushes back at rigid genre definitions, with Caught Stealing merging sports, crime caper, and comedy.
  • Requiem for a Dream is reconsidered as a horror movie where the monster is addiction (19:03).
  • Quote: “ESPN would not allow me to go for the best sports film of the year because they were like, ‘wrestling’s not a sport’...” (Aronofsky, 14:33)
• Easter eggs for sports fans: meticulous detail in movie timelines (e.g., moving the story to align with the Giants’ wildcard run).

4. ‘90s New York: Peak Humanity or Lost Era?

(Explored at length 15:49–18:44 and 32:34–38:44)

• Aronofsky’s concept of “peak humanity” is connected to the relative innocence of pre-9/11 life, analog communication, optimism, and underground creativity.
  • Quote: "…the '90s in New York, in downtown, I call it peak humanity, because…the Soviet Union had collapsed. Our biggest problem was Y2K. Everyone was just talking about, did Bill Clinton have sex with that woman?" (Aronofsky, 16:12)
• The profound social impact of cellphones and social media in fragmenting the shared culture of the city.
  • Quote: "...we are basically these cyborgs, and we're gone. And I'm not saying—I'm not judging... but it's different." (Aronofsky, 16:55)

5. Aronofsky’s Relationship to Superhero Movies

(Covered in depth 25:20–29:15)

• Insight into Aronofsky’s flirtations with major franchises (Batman, Superman, Wolverine) and why he ultimately stays with personal, original projects.
  • Quote: "I've always felt like a need to author some stuff and not necessarily just do someone else's character." (Aronofsky, 26:10)
• Larger reflection: He prefers to create “real human heroes” over costumed superheroes, wanting stories that bring people together.

6. Wonder, Science, and Environmental Optimism

(Sections 30:11–34:11)

• Pablo and Darren bond over field biology, nostalgia for New York’s natural wonders (“There are whales in New York Harbor!”).
  • Quote: “Dude, there are photos... in which there are humpbacks breaching and the background is a cyclone.” (Torre, 33:10)
• Both express awe at new discoveries in familiar places—a metaphor for both city and life itself.

7. Aging, Evolution, and Creative Risk

(Revisited 44:20–47:53)

• Aronofsky is candid about evolving from the defiant “rocky road” filmmaker to someone more open to feedback, inclusive storytelling, and even happy endings.
  • Quote: "...I really wanted to make something fun and entertaining, and I wanted to reach people in that way." (Aronofsky, 44:35)
• Caught Stealing might be setting up a trilogy—hinting at the irony of Aronofsky eventually building a “cinematic universe.”

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Notable Quotes & “Memorable Moments”

[01:44] Aronofsky on Roll-N-Roaster:
"That to us was like the place, like, you know, two o'clock in the morning, you come and you get the roast beef with the cheese on top of it..."

[11:00] Aronofsky on Empathy in Cinema:
"The act of watching a movie, it's an exercise in empathy... you're in someone else's shoes. Literally. You're like, in their head..."

[16:12] Aronofsky on "Peak Humanity":
"...the '90s in New York, in downtown, I call it peak humanity, because…the Soviet Union had collapsed. Our biggest problem was Y2K. Everyone was just talking about, did Bill Clinton have sex with that woman?"

[28:02] Torre on Pessimism & Optimism:
"Things are so overwhelmingly cynical that optimism feels punk rock."

[26:10] Aronofsky on Superhero Movies:
"I've always felt like a need to author some stuff and not necessarily just do someone else's character..."

[44:35] Aronofsky on Audience and Change:
"...I really wanted to make something fun and entertaining, and I wanted to reach people in that way."

[46:44] Aronofsky on The Wrestler and Hank:
"...you have a hero that you're rooting for who just can't get out of his own way. And Austin Butler really was able to do that. Was able to take a beating down to the mat, but always kind of dust himself up..."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:36–04:20: Roll-N-Roaster, neighborhood identity, and how food “roots” identity
• 06:08–10:22: Pablo & Darren find their shared Harvard connection; discussion of Caught Stealing’s genre and cast
• 12:25–18:44: Movie empathy, changing the hero archetype, and nostalgia for '90s optimism
• 19:03–24:00: Requiem for a Dream, censorship and genre, long-term impact
• 25:20–29:15: Aronofsky’s brush with superhero movies, preference for original storytelling
• 30:11–34:11: New York’s hidden nature, whales in the harbor, shared city culture pre-social media
• 36:10–41:14: New York's shifting population, real estate laments, the meaning of “home”
• 44:20–47:53: Aging, craft, and creative evolution; why Caught Stealing offers hope
• 47:53–End: Trilogy ambitions, meta-commentary on building a franchise

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Takeaways & Tone

Fun, loose, and deeply thoughtful, this episode reveals a more joyful, reflective side of Darren Aronofsky and a Pablo Torre eager to plumb the intellectual, emotional, and cultural mysteries of both film and New York itself. The most striking surprise: Aronofsky—long known for bleak stories and psychological torment—expresses a new, almost radical optimism and faith in both the movies and the enduring, ever-changing spirit of humanity.

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For New Listeners

This recap captures the spirit and depth of Pablo Torre’s acclaimed “talkumentary” style; you’ll come away understanding:

• How a cult-favorite filmmaker is embracing hope and tradition
• What New York means to its natives (and to culture at large)
• Why stories—whether about baseball, addiction, or unheralded “heroes”—still matter

No need for a cape to enjoy this one.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

I'm Pablo Torre. And this episode of Pablo Torre Finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin. 1738 Accord Royale. Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities. Please drink responsibly because today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Get out of my neighborhood. I'm like, this is my neighborhood. I am 99. Sure. I've been here longer than you mother. Get on my street right after this ad. The 50 simply bet. Delicious.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the 50th anniversary.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's 1970, so.

[Pablo Torre]

Wow. So I got this during the pandemic.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, wow.

[Pablo Torre]

No. So I, I, I, I.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Do you understand what that means to me, that place?

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not an idiot. So I've owned this shirt. I wear this shirt a lot.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, my God.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not just doing this shirt.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I'm, like, thinking, what I can trade for that shirt.

[Pablo Torre]

We might have a deal. By the end of this episode, we might have a transaction.

[Darren Aronofsky]

So, like, let me explain to you what roller means. So should I put these on or how does that work?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, let's do it.

[Darren Aronofsky]

So Roller roaster is. Let's see. I don't know if I want to even hear my voice, but if you.

[Pablo Torre]

Don'T want to, we can take them off.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's kind of sexy. No, I'm all right. You can wear them. I don't care. So I grew up like a bird's eye shot, I guess they call it. Maybe half a mile from there. The original roller roast in Sheepsa Bay.

[Pablo Torre]

We're not so fast Roll and Roaster. We're not so fast Roll and Ro. Taking the time making everything just right. Waking up your appetite. We give you real roast beef, bigger burgers, cook the way you want at Rolling Roaster. The not so fast fast food restaurant at Roll and Roaster, we take just.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That to us was like the place, like, you know, two o' clock in the morning, you come and you get the roast beef with the, the, the, the cheese on top of it, the.

[Pablo Torre]

Cheese with a Z.

[Darren Aronofsky]

But cheese with a Z, which, by the way, I don't, I don't think I'll tell you exactly what that cheese is.

[Pablo Torre]

You know what it is?

[Darren Aronofsky]

So first of all, back in the day, all the waitresses were like, the most beautiful women.

[Pablo Torre]

So again, again, I'll show you the illustration on.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Exactly. So they were always, they were the most beautiful women. So we'd always go in there, but we were like little geeky guys. And so you Know, we had no play. So when I was a, Like, I think my freshman, right before I started freshman college at Harvard, and I'm bragging because it's part of the story, I wanted to get a job there cleaning tables at Roller Roaster, and the mother turned me down.

[Pablo Torre]

A couple of things that the universe is doing to us right now.

[Darren Aronofsky]

But then the other thing is. So then, now I live in the East Village, and they try. And when I moved in the East Village, they turned. There was a roller roaster on. Across the street from the movie theater on 11th and 3rd. And they tried to. Which was a few blocks from where I live. Yeah. And it didn't work. But it was kind of amazing that.

[Pablo Torre]

I didn't know they franchised.

[Darren Aronofsky]

They tried. They tried it, but that's the bomb. And I love that show.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, it's.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's. It's.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a special thing.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Roller Roasters. So the thing that I. So I. From Manhattan.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. How'd you find out about it?

[Pablo Torre]

I would go to, like, Coney island and I get a car, and I would drive around with my friend, and we get whatever we.

[Darren Aronofsky]

We. So she just stumbled on Rolling Roaster.

[Pablo Torre]

I knew of it.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, wow.

[Pablo Torre]

But the reason why this place blew my mind is because you look at the menu, and there's the roast beef. And they claim, by the way, that this is a key to, like, longevity. There's a part of the menu. I want to quote the menu here because one of my favorite New York things is like, the. You know, the true, like, native New York energy when it says, what a delicious way to lose weight, exclamation point. And they go on to just sort of proclaim, 100% trans fat free. And then you look at the menu up top, and it's like, standard stuff. Standard stuff. Okay. Like, cool. I got roast beef. They're really into that. Then you can get the champagne.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I don't even know. Actual. Actual out. They have an alcohol license that you.

[Pablo Torre]

Can buy 5,995 more at champagne. And it's like, new.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That's post my time.

[Pablo Torre]

So I'm like, what is this place? My genuine reaction.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's real Brooklyn.

[Pablo Torre]

And it's real and it's delicious.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's been delicious.

[Pablo Torre]

And I mean, the bun.

[Darren Aronofsky]

The buns are great. I won't. I won't give away what the cheese is, because that's like a big secret. But I mean, roast beef with cheese, secret. I mean, you know, look, it's all rumors, but there was Lots of conversation growing up. It's such a huge part of my lore. And it's funny because when I shot Caught Stealing, the new movie, yes, we do a sequence out in the water which didn't make the movie, but we launched our platoon of boats across the street, and my crew was there, and they were. I was like, guys, you gotta go check out Roland Ross. And they're like, what's that? And literally, like, two stores down, I was like, go check. And then suddenly they were, like, trucking it in throughout the shooting. I'm totally addicted to it.

[Pablo Torre]

It's amazing.

[Darren Aronofsky]

And so it's crazy that it never got much bigger, but it really. It's. It's in a. It's in a far corner of South Brooklyn, and it's. It's really the bomb.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just gotta jump in here to point out that I had Darren Aronofsky, who was one of the most provocative and surrealist and unapologetic filmmakers in all Hollywood until he walked into our studio. We'd reached out to Darren because for a very long time, I had been fascinated by what seemed like his thoughtfully contrarian approach to storytelling. He's the guy who cooked up Requiem for a Dream with Ellen Burstyn and the Wrestler with Nikki Rourke and Black Swan with Natalie Portman and Mother with Jennifer Lawrence. And none of those movies allowed the audience a happy ending. But speaking of predictability, it is also clear now that Darren Aronofsky had no idea that we share one brag in common. It's a joke to the point where we will put up days since Pablo has said he went to Harvard. On the wall.

[Darren Aronofsky]

You actually went.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Very cool. What year were you?

[Pablo Torre]

I graduated 2007.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Okay, so now, once again, you have mentioned that you went to Harvard at.

[Pablo Torre]

The time, Darren Aronofsky made me do it. But the other thing Darren enabled a couple weeks ago was a ticket to a screening of his aforementioned new film, caught stealing, out August 29th. And I knew absolutely nothing about this movie. Walking into it, I had no idea that Caught Stealing's main character would be a former major league prospect named Hank, played by Austin Butler. And also, given Darren's larger catalog, which I had ingested in advance, I did not foresee the very special kind of surprise that I wound up being.

[Darren Aronofsky]

There's a lot of surprises in it. I don't think it's. Even when you know what it is a bit. It's correct. It gets people. I've been. We just started some screenings. We went down to Puerto Rico and did our world premiere. And that was in Mexico, is like hearing people gasp was pretty cool.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, throughout it, discovering bad bunnies in this. Our friend who has sat in that chair. Action. Bronson is in this.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Action's the bomb.

[Pablo Torre]

I had no idea when I was interviewing him. Yeah, is this good? And then I listened back and I'm like, this is, I think, the greatest conversation I've ever had.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Maybe it's out of control. We were just doing a little press with him. He's been really generous with his time because he's not the type of guy that does that type of stuff. No, no, sweetheart. You know, they're asking on camera a bunch of questions and they're like, like, okay, what's your favorite crime movie? And I think Austin says Heat.

[Pablo Torre]

Austin Butler, Yes.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Austin Butler, yes. And Zoe Kravitz says true romance. And then, you know, action takes that, like, totally long pause, way too long. And then goes Schindler's List. The room just didn't know to laugh, to smile or what. And he was actually kind of right.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, no.

[Darren Aronofsky]

As far as a crime, I mean.

[Pablo Torre]

Show me the lie.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a thing that is relevant to the film, but it's a baseball metaphor. It was like catching a knuckleball. Talking to him. I'm like, I don't know where this is going. Am I an idiot?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Is this so right? That's right. It's sort of going all over the place. And then it comes right across the plane.

[Pablo Torre]

There's so little spin that it's the most spin you've ever seen. Yeah, that's true. But I say all that to say that I didn't know this was a sports movie in a real. Again, not entirely, but meaningfully.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is good. There's a lot of stuff in it that only sports fans will get. Like. I mean, there's so many things we did that are like deep sports. Oh, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I was like, checking, like, the baseball reference page and I'm like this. Oh, no.

[Darren Aronofsky]

We actually changed the year of the movie because we wanted the Giants to be having a better run. Yeah. So it was like, I think in the book, it's set in 2000 and we moved it to 98 because there was the wild card. And so that was kind of an interesting backstory for the film.

[Pablo Torre]

Are you yourself a self identified sports fan?

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's been a long time. Like, I was as a kid. I grew up in South Brooklyn, so it was like the Mets and the jets, who were both playing at Shea at the time. And so. And also I was born in 69, so that was a victory year for those teams. And I did see Joe Namath on the field as a boy, so. And Tom Seaver and Kingman. And so I saw some of that. But like in the 70s, then it's like Reggie Jackson time. So it was really hard to resist and stay a Mets fan. When everyone's selling out to become a Yankees fans.

[Pablo Torre]

It's hard to peak at the year of your birth.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. And then have to wait till, what was it, 86 to have another victory.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah. More cocaine. Y.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

But follow up, championship experience.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I started watching a little baseball for this movie and sort of got caught up on some of it, but I didn't get deep.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, the thing that I experience as I'm going through this film and I'm watching Austin Butler, having watched again in a weirdly compressed amount of time, Pie and Raccoon for a Dream and the wrestler in Black Swan and Noah and Mother. I go into this film and I'm sitting there and it ends. And I'm like, did Darren Aronofsky just, like, make a romp? Is this the sort of thing where you say, like, this is madcap Caper.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Caper's the term.

[Pablo Torre]

But I'm like, this was not just fun.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But it was.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

There was something in it. And I don't know if you'll take offense at this when I say it, but there's a hero.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh. How dare I?

[Pablo Torre]

How furious are all of the cinephile perv.

[Darren Aronofsky]

You know, look, it's funny. I. I just. It's just something I felt. It's like there's a lot of seriousness going on in the world and everyone's screaming at each other. And I think one thing that movies do and stories do is they kind of unite people. You know, they bring people together. I mean, the. The act of watching a movie, it's an exercise in empathy. But I. And you've heard that before, but it's. It's more meaningful than that because basically you are forgetting about yourself. In a really good movie, hopefully you're in someone else's shoes. Literally. You're like, in their head. Because the. One of the great inventions of the 20th century that's overlooked is the closeup. And what the closeup allows you to do is you can look at Austin Butler up close without being self conscious that he might look at you or he might judge you, or you could just look at him. Deeply. And you can study him, and you can actually kind of really connect with him and really go through the experience with him. And I think that is like a super important thing that people are doing less and less of when they're. When they're scrolling. You're not really separating yourself. You're usually jealous or, you know, all different types of thoughts are going through your head. But in a movie, you're going on a long emotional journey with someone else. And that's a deeply human act. And so I think it's super important to get as many people as we can to watch these movies, because I think anyone on any political spectrum, they come together, and hopefully they're going to dig Hank, because Hank is kind of just like an American hero. And I think we miss that. There's a lot of American heroes, but they're usually superheroes. And I kind of wanted to do, like, put out an American hero out there who's just a guy that a lot of us can relate to, that a lot of us can hope for, and then just connect with him. And it doesn't matter where you're coming from.

[Pablo Torre]

Typically, though, because you are a master of the closeup, you're invading the interiority of your protagonist.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And you are showing us what it's like in there. And typically, I would say your catalog is defined by that being almost as traumatic for the audience as it is for the person that we're meeting.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And this.

[Darren Aronofsky]

This.

[Pablo Torre]

I like Hank. I was rooting for Hank.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

This is not the antihero antagonist dynamic did you take? I took a class at Harvard as the. That's a. Yeah, the resetting.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

The class I took was. It was derided, but it was Concepts of the hero in Greek Civilization.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Is that Heroes for Zeros?

[Pablo Torre]

That's how they derided it.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. I never.

[Pablo Torre]

You know what?

[Darren Aronofsky]

I never took Heroes for Zeros, but that was a huge mistake in my sight because it took me another 20 years to discover Joseph Campbell and become a total addict of it. And I could have gotten it back when I was walking out of college because that's actually a huge tool for me in filmmaking now, the hero's journey. But it did take me a long time to find it.

[Pablo Torre]

So finding it in terms of you learning about the hero's journey, but also you now, in this film, doing something that feels more classical. Yeah, to that point.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Was it fun? Was it more. How do you describe your process?

[Darren Aronofsky]

I always have a good time. I mean, there. The filmmaking process for me is is never that different from PI with whatever it was $20,000 to. To this movie and all in between. They all have their own challenges and stuff, but the process is very similar. But there was something nice about getting my crew together and. And basically I've been working with a lot of the same people since. Since the 90s. And they've all become incredible masters of their craft and then bringing that all to like make a solid genre film. Like, not. Because if you think I've never really done clear genre, like PI is not really Sci Fi Requiem. My biggest letdown just to talk sports was on the wrestler.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Darren Aronofsky]

ESPN would not allow me to go for the best sports film of the year because they were like, wrestling is not a sport. I was like, God. Someone yesterday, by the way, also called Black Swan a sports movie, which I thought was interesting too, because it is in many ways.

[Pablo Torre]

My personal.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's an athletic. Absolutely. It's an athletic movie. So it's good. This is kind of the third sports film, but they're. They're similar except that it's like, it's very clearly a crime caper. That's what we wanted to do. So bringing together that team of like masters that I surround myself with and be like, you know what? Let's make the best genre film we can and have a great time in 90s New York.

[Pablo Torre]

90S New York, which is my childhood. 85.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, very cool. Oh, so, yeah. So you're a teenager in that time. Yeah. So it must have sparked a lot of. A lot of visceral memories, frankly.

[Pablo Torre]

It was like, oh, if I was.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Cooler, I could have gone down to these.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I'd be around there. I grew up, you know, in Murray Hill, which is.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, it's not that far. I'm sure you guys wandered out a little bit.

[Pablo Torre]

My mom is discovering that I wandered out a little bit in this very conversation.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

But also just man, the nostalgia for that era. What do you miss the most about that?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Well, of course, there's just so much. In many ways it isn't that different, but of course it's so different. And the main thing is like the social media aspect of it and just like the communication aspect, like back in the day. And you probably remember this as a 13 year old, hey, meet me on the corner of blah, blah, blah, that blah, blah, blah. And you were there. And if you were late or you missed the person, you didn't talk to them until you got back to your house and had a telephone, unless you had a beeper or something. So it was. It was a whole different way of communicating and interacting with each other. And I think it. There's also an immediacy back then of being in the present, of being what's happening right now that we've lost. Because the reality is we're spending seven hours inside of our telephone in our machines. At this point, we are basically these cyborgs, and we're gone. And I'm not saying. I'm not judging. I'm not going to be like Elvis, don't sway your hips type of guy. Because I think it's interesting. Like, I'm all leaning into all the new stuff, but it's different. And that. That's kind of interesting. I. And I think there is a fomo, like, you just had to. Even as a city boy, that you wanted to get downtown. Yeah, the 90s in New York, in downtown, I call it peak humanity, because, like, the Soviet Union had collapsed. Our biggest problem was Y2K. Everyone was just talking about, did Bill Clinton have sex with that woman? That was. That was our biggest controversy with our president.

[Pablo Torre]

Scandal at that time is so funny. Watch the West Wing now. You're like, wait, it was like school uniforms. Like that.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Dare they.

[Pablo Torre]

That was a real problem America was grappling with.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. So it was like everything was like. The temperature was a lot lower. And, you know, pre 9, 11, it was a very different world.

[Pablo Torre]

Pre 9, 11 is the era and the.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Musically, it was like hip hop was booming and going international, which, as New Yorkers, was exciting. Grunge was kind of over by 98, but was still important. Electronic music was just starting. Musically, there was just so many still new forms. There was still an underground, which is, like, hard to have at this point. So I feel like a big part of this film is the FOMO of the 90s. Like, you want to see what it was like, like, you know, come home. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God. Like, the idea of America being so optimistic that to be cynical felt radical.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Well, I. I had that a lot because back then I saw making Requiem for a Dream and Pie and all these kind of more underground films then and Finding a Little Love. But it was. It was hard because Paris Hilton was Queen. Letterman was cynical, and that was that.

[Pablo Torre]

He had a bite, but was distinguished by the zag.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

He was making. Yeah, yeah, like, that's so. And Requiem, which I had my experience with that is that high school, college. I just remember being like, why are people chanting ass to ass?

[Darren Aronofsky]

So what are we gonna do now? Ass to ass.

[Pablo Torre]

Ass to ass. And I then was like, oh, oh. And so I revisit it and I'm like, what. What genre do you. For people who somehow haven't seen it?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I would ultimately say it's a horror film where the monster is addiction in a certain way. It's invisible, but it's. It's kind of horrific, the film, but it doesn't really fit into a genre.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right.

[Darren Aronofsky]

But that guy, by the way, did you catch him in the movie? Did you see him in caught stealing at 92 years old?

[Pablo Torre]

No, Wait, wait, wait.

[Darren Aronofsky]

The Gil Hodges line.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God.

[Darren Aronofsky]

The studio begged me to cut it, by the way, because they're like, no one in the world knows who Gil Hodges is. And I'm like, you know what?

[Pablo Torre]

Me?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yes. It's a bunch of Brooklyn boys.

[Pablo Torre]

This podcaster knows the legend of. Yes, Gil Hodges, Brooklyn Dodgers.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course.

[Darren Aronofsky]

So, yeah, and he just wrote me recently. Stanley Herman is his name. That's like what he's known for. And he gets recognized and he might actually put on his tombstone ass to ass. Exactly. I was like, you know, more people will come visit you.

[Pablo Torre]

Stanley Herman.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I met him actually. I was a film student in the early 90s in LA. And he came in and I was like, hey, so I. I've got this one role in this little short I'm doing called the Pervert. Will you do it? He's like, definitely. And so he's been the pervert in every movie pretty much, except in the new movie. He's. He's a Brooklyn Dodgers fan.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to explain. Ask. To ask for people.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Really.

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre. Can you describe it? I don't want to summarize it. I want to know how you would explain it to someone who's never seen just that scene.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Basically, when we put the movie into the world, the mpaa, which is the censorship board for Hollywood, they wanted to give us a X rating mostly for that scene. And what happens in that scene and other things, of course, in the movie. There's a lot of drug use in it and a lot of profanity and it's terrible. You know, it's a pretty tough film.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, it is like, I want to laugh about this in the context of this movie will change you.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Because it's real in a way that is just rare in cinema.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Well, it's funny. So this is the 25th anniversary and there's big screening at the Tribeca Film Festival and they're re releasing a DVD any Moment type of thing that with has all these things on it. But for the, for the Toronto Film Festival 25th screening, I got Alan Burson to come out 92 as well. And she was like, I'm watching it. So I was like, you know, I haven't seen it in years. So I was like, okay, if I, I'm gonna sit next to Ellen and watch this. Because I think the last time we watched it was at the world premiere at the Cannes film festival in 90 in 2000.

[Pablo Torre]

How'd the French react?

[Darren Aronofsky]

We had an incredible reaction in France. It was insane. It was like it had started at. We were, we were a midnight screening because they thought it was too rough to be earlier. But the movie before us went too late. So we start at 1am and it finished at 3am and the applause went on. Like, you know how they talk about these applause. But it was the standing in my career, I've never seen anything like it in any other film, not even my own. It was like. It was crazy at 3 o' clock in the morning and it was very emotional. But we still had no idea that it would be this thing people would be talking about 25 later and the impact of that film on young people and now young people that are. Are actually making films. It's. It's a beautiful. Oh thing. And it just had just like a bunch of. I guess we were like late. We probably 30. A bunch of 30 year olds just, just trying to do everything we could and just make as good a movie as we could. So it was a great, it was a great, it was a great experience. And then. But sitting next to Ellen during the screening, I mean she was just slapping me the whole time. Shame, shame. And I was kind of shocked. I was like, wow, you know, it's definitely the film of a 30 year old, not the film of a 56 year old. So you know, it's different movie for me.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that brings us back to the, the ratings and the question of what do you do with the scene that is still being.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. Talked about. Yeah. So at that point not having an R rating, there was a huge problem. So I think there still is. Like you can't advertise in newspapers and. But the studio stood by me because I, I was like, look, this, this film is about what addiction can do to you. And if we shave back anything, we're undermining the whole purpose of the movie. So the movie has to go there because it's showing you how, how dark it can get if you kind of allow yourself to be ruled by addiction.

[Pablo Torre]

So, yeah, it's like McGruff the crime dog was like the standard mode of warning people about drugs are bad.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I was doing a Q and A and there was a woman stood up and said, thanks for requieving it. Made me sober 25 years ago. And the guy who wrote it, Hubert Selby Jr. Great author who wrote Last Exit the Brooklyn famously, he was an NAA sponsor for 30 years. And the amount of lives he saved with this and with the film and with the book, it's amazing accomplishment.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just gotta go back to the concept of the hero's journey for just a second here because as Darren Aronofsky said, he came to it regrettably late in life. And I've been thinking about this because as much as he became critically acclaimed for being this weird and abstract and disturbing auteur who was bootstrapping low budget but highbrow movies, it turns out that Darren has toyed with the idea of making a film that is not just about a hero, but a superhero. And he's been thinking about this for a while now. Around the year 2000, Warner Brothers originally hired him to develop the movie that eventually became Christopher Nolan's Batman Begins. Ten years later, he was then attached to direct Hugh Jackman in the Wolverine. And Darren dropped out of both of those projects, obviously, but he was intrigued and I wanted to know why.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I've always been interested in that because I do think, like, there's always interesting to do with certain of those characters. I kind of had a. Like, I was attached to Batman for a while and Superman and the Watchmen because I've always. I wasn't a crazy comic book fan as a kid, but I got into graphic novels when I was in college, actually. My roommate was an animator and he turned me on to the Watchmen and. Gosh, the. Frank Miller.

[Pablo Torre]

Miller.

[Darren Aronofsky]

What's it called again? The series. Anyway, the Dark Knight. The Dark Knight series. So I read all those and they were like real literature, those things. But I wasn't really a big superhero fan. And then I got. But, you know, when I got the call about Batman, I was in the edit room on Requiem. And it was kind of before they would take all these young directors and stick them on big franchises. So it was kind of a new idea and I was kind of intrigued. But I've always felt like a need to author some stuff and not necessarily just do someone else's character. So I've been very lucky that I've been able to do my Originals first. So when Batman came on, I really wanted to make the Fountain. And that was this kind of really big, expensive, experimental movie. I felt like if the studio saw me as a superhero director, maybe they would let me do this crazy thing. And eventually they let me do the crazy thing instead, you know, and then, you know, Chris Nolan had the launch of his career off of it, which is great. And he did it in such a smart way. Yes. That I don't think I would have ever done. I would have probably made it small and edgy type of version.

[Pablo Torre]

A bit more dildos.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. Not that dark. I don't think I would have gotten away with that. But so. And then I've been lucky because after. After the Fountain, you know, I was able to go small and do the wrestler and Black Swan, and I've always been able to do the ones I want to do. So there are some interesting things in the superhero universe, but I think most of that stuff has been visited and kind of where I am now is, like, real human heroes, and that can unite people. I think that's. That's my sweet spot. And where I'm looking to, like, do stuff is, like, bring people together with stories and characters that kind of remind us of how great our lives are and like. And like. And be positive towards the future. Because it feels like.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that's.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's like things are getting ripped and torn apart.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, it says something. And from a macro perspective, of course, you're right. If you're to trace the arc of history from, as you yourself have made films about the origins of the human condition and also, like humanity as a concept, if you were to trace that, things have undoubtedly gotten better over time. Yeah, but in the present tense, it feels miserable to the point where to go and do the inverse of what we observed before. Things are so overwhelmingly cynical that optimism feels punk rock.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That's where I am. Exactly. And it's funny, I'm hearing that from other filmmakers too. Like, you're going to see, like, a lot of the kind of indie edgy guy. People are starting to lean into that because, you know, I've been talking about it, like, if Hollywood can do anything right now, it's like, shut up and dance. Like, let's. Let's entertain. Let's entertain. Let's do what we do great, which is we make great movies that capture the world and remind, you know, think about the human potential and. And where the world can go. It's not a dystopian future. Like, where is the protopian future? Where's the great future ahead of us? Or where's the great human characters that have grit, that just sort of power through?

[Pablo Torre]

Part of what I think you would have. I mean, clearly you've thought about this. What you would have hated about superhero filmmaking is being beholden to a canon that was not your own and a community of policemen.

[Darren Aronofsky]

True.

[Pablo Torre]

Who would have hated.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah. When you push the edge a bit.

[Pablo Torre]

The choices and the interpretations.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, and look, it's nothing. It's impossible to do because again, Christopher Nolan, totally a gothic Batman. That was incredible. But the policing of your work from people who feel like they are the actual arbiters.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Of the content.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Well, now I'm about to be policed, as you said, by people who are like, well, this isn't a real Aronofsky film.

[Pablo Torre]

And that's my point is, like, you have now made this subreddit of. I mean, literal and figurative.

[Darren Aronofsky]

When you. I don't want to give too much away, but when you actually think of the content. How many people live, how many people die?

[Pablo Torre]

I should be very clear. I'm grading on a Harvard level curve.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

The gentleman.

[Darren Aronofsky]

No, grade inflation.

[Pablo Torre]

The gentleman's A of man. Darren only had this many people shot in the head. He's gone soft.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

So there's. There's so much of that, obviously, but on the scale of Requiem.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah. It's a different world. It's a different world. But I love it.

[Pablo Torre]

But again, it's just like. But that's part of what. What I found so delightful.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. And the question is, can we bring the same level of attention and filmmaking to a different kind of genre that's been fun to. To breathe life into other types of stories. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Speaking of life. So good at segues. Your sort of field biology.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Sort of that section of your cv. Part of what I. One of my favorite things in life that I do, my show I talk about quite a bit is just like how the ecosystem of New York City is underrated. But you're somebody who like, went abroad to.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

In your teen years, right?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You explain what you did and just. I want to sort of bring that back to where we are.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. I mean, I've always had. I'm from like the Southern. Southern part of Brooklyn and like two houses away from a concrete parking lot that leads. Leads to Manhattan beach, the actual beach. Like the sand and the oceans right there. Like. Like real nature and, you know, being in the southern tip of Brooklyn, you know, There were two types of people growing up in my Brooklyn, not today's Brooklyn. People wanted to get to the big city, and people were never going to get the out. And I was always like, I want to get to the big city. And then, very young, I really was into travel and, like, you know, seeing the world. The other great thing about growing up, up down in South Brooklyn is there was the New York City Aquarium, where a lot of my friends would intern, because if you intern there, you'd get a T shirt that would let you go on the Cyclone in Coney island as many times as you want. We would go on the cyclone 40, 50 times a day. We would just ride it all day until, like, our brains were like, that's insane. Yeah, exactly. We have. What's cte, what is it called exactly? From.

[Pablo Torre]

You and the NFL have a number of things in common in terms of that.

[Darren Aronofsky]

And while there, one of my friends stumbled on this kind of brochure for this program that took kids and trained them as field biologists around the world, a group called School for Field Studies, which is still around, training ecologists of the future. I'm on the board now. And so I went with them to Kenya and I studied ungulates, which are animals that stand on their hooves like giraffes, anything. Yeah, zebra, anything. And then the next year, I went with them to Prince William Sound in Alaska and studied thermoregulation harbor seals. And just like, being in crazy nature when you couldn't find all that stuff on Google, totally blew my brain. And definitely I became a scientist. And the way I look at the world is through the scientific method.

[Pablo Torre]

So what I am sort of connecting with you about when it comes to the optimism is a fundamental sense of, like, truly, like, nostalgic wonder. And in New York, the thing that has blown my mind is whales. There are whales in New York Harbor.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I have. I have not heard about this. Really?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Because they're driven up north from the. From climate or what is it?

[Pablo Torre]

It's a multivariate equation.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

But there's been a cleaning of the harbor and so humpbacks or what? Yes.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Wow.

[Pablo Torre]

So, like, you can. Dude, there are photos, and these are real.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Really?

[Pablo Torre]

In which there are humpbacks breaching and the background is a cyclone. Oh, really?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yes. Oh, wow. I have not seen this.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God.

[Darren Aronofsky]

So that's how actually out on my beach. Yes. Down in South Brooklyn. Yes. Oh, wow.

[Pablo Torre]

I actively will.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Okay, good.

[Pablo Torre]

I will spam you with my pro whale propaganda. New York to me. Right. So it went from a place of growing up. And this is the pre social media era, obviously, pre cell phones. It. It was part of my nostalgia. I realized, oh, this is. It felt like a. Like a. Like a. Like a small town in a way. Like, now New York is so fragmented because phones have fragmented everything, right? And there are a zillion New Yorks for people, and there's a TikTok New York and sub genres inside of that.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Interesting.

[Pablo Torre]

When I was growing up, I just felt like, oh, man, everyone's talking about Rudy Giuliani, right? Everyone is sort of dealing with this. So even, like, a blackout. To me, growing up was amazing, right?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Amazing. I had a lot of fun on the blackout.

[Pablo Torre]

Everyone's talking about the same thing, right?

[Darren Aronofsky]

You don't feel that connection in New York still.

[Pablo Torre]

I. I just think that because we are seeing things through our phone, right? There's just less of it.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That might be true, but less of it's an interesting thing. I don't know. I mean, shooting. Caught stealing in the East Village. We shot on the corner of 6th and A. Where Benny's Burritos used to be.

[Pablo Torre]

I used to live on 10th and Sea.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Okay. You know exactly where I am. But it was a freaking circus. I thought I was on Bourbon Street. I was kind of grossed out by, like, what, the East. What? What? The East Village? I was like, oh, this.

[Pablo Torre]

Alphabet City was a place my parents warned me against.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Alphabet City was. Alphabet City was hardcore. Absolutely. I don't think it's so scary anymore. But it was very, very intense.

[Pablo Torre]

I moved there to the point.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Very intense. But. And it seemed like people were having a good time, though. So, like, a first, like, Friday night, I was super pissed off because I thought. I didn't realize the type of crowds we were gonna have to be dealing with. And people screaming, you know, people screaming, get out of my neighborhood. I'm like, this is my neighborhood. I am 99% sure. I've been here longer than you motherf. Er. Get on my street. But then I realized people were having fun. And then I did. I've gone out a few times in it. Cause I had to go check out bars and scout bars. And there was a lot of life going on still. New York, it felt alive in a real way.

[Pablo Torre]

One of my takes about New York that I feel as a true, like, you know. You know, New Yorker. And the question of, like, when do you get to claim that? Do you have a standard for that? Does anyone get to claim that if they're not from here.

[Darren Aronofsky]

You know what I mean? We all know when it's all. My second quest, where you're from New York. Second question. Where'd you go to high school? And I was like, oh, we moved to Long island when I was seven. Like, okay. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, yes.

[Darren Aronofsky]

So we're total snobs. Total snobs. No, I mean, because we did pay dues. We did pay dues.

[Pablo Torre]

And. But beyond the whole, like, look at what New York used to be. Like.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. What we grew up, which is our favorite conversation as New Yorkers. Absolutely. That. I was like, I could have got. Bought that building for. Blah, blah, blah. Lost. Christ.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. The whole thing of, like, I've been. I found a rent control department that I'm still just, like, the whole lore of.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Where to live, how to live. All of that. Part of what I feel walking around to what you just described is just knowing what's been here before.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Reduces, I think, the anxiety lots of people feel around. How intimidating.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, oh, this street. Even, like, walking through. So one example.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, walking through a busy street in, like, the West Village, and it's like all these very attractive people, and it's like they're all, you know, watching you and all of that. I'm like, none of you people used to be here.

[Darren Aronofsky]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, you are new here.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, that confidence is like, what? To me, you have to. That's like a accumulated decades of just, like, not like you. Like, I'm not. You can't. You can't intimidate me off of this street.

[Darren Aronofsky]

But I love that New York is always changing like it used to be. I used to really complain, like, oh, that used to be like this. But I find it exciting that it's like a living, growing, changing city. And like, on my corner, where the rolling roaster is, I don't know what they're putting up, but they took down everything. And it's going to be something ugly. But I'm, like, gonna be a wet store, Darren. It's gonna be illegal.

[Pablo Torre]

We asked for legal weed and we got it. And it sucks.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. But at least that shrunk, too. That was, like, everywhere.

[Pablo Torre]

Now it's bodega. Now it's being.

[Darren Aronofsky]

And now it's like, now. Now the ones that have the license seem to know what's going on a bit. But it's. Yes, it's. You get everything you want when you no longer want it that much.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Like, my friend Ari Zablotsky built his bar. Zablotsky's In Williamsburg. But it, you know, he. He built it when I was like 36. And I'm like, dude, I got a baby.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I'm going to bed. 10:30.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I was like, where were you in the 20s when we needed a dive bar that we could drink for free? So you always, your friends get. At least for me that there, I'm always. It's always 10 years behind what I need it.

[Pablo Torre]

I have a friend who just opened a bar and I'm like, I am.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Not going to go see you.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not going to hang out.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. You will never see me there. Maybe, you know, if it's your birthday, I'll come by for.

[Pablo Torre]

That's literally what I did. And I was there and I shook his hand and I'm like, I got to go. I have a five year old.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

But. But the. The other thing I. The most authentic, like, just like feeling about New York that I have is the wonder not merely if there are whales here suddenly.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Speaking to the changes of things, but that there are places that are just so close to me that I've never even walked into that one day. I do. After decades of ignoring it. And I'm like, this has been here the whole time.

[Darren Aronofsky]

There are always discoveries and things are always changing. That's. It's. I just went to that thing. I met this guy. His last name's Digital, but he's this artist. Kevin Kezen, I can't remember, but he built this like observation thing that's inside of. It's all covered in mirrors. Have you seen this thing yet? It's like this new observation tower, like around Grand Central Station.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, the Vanderbilt. One van.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah, One Vanderbilt.

[Pablo Torre]

The observation deck. Yes.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's sick. Did you go inside? It's actually worth checking out.

[Pablo Torre]

Can I tell you what I did? So I bought a ticket for me and my wife and so Digital, I think. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think that's right. So I bought a ticket and the line was so long that it snaked into the subway. Like, I'm not waiting.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I could hook you up. I met the guy, so next time.

[Pablo Torre]

He goes, he's actually cool.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I was like, oh, this is. It's like an artist interpretation of an observation deck. And it's like a lot of fun.

[Pablo Torre]

So to me, the fact that there are these like, you know, in that case, a literal, almost like funhouse mirrors scenario.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

Up in the sky. I'm like, yeah. I'm also another one of my just beliefs is New Yorkers. Real New Yorkers also should do some tourist sometimes.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Because it's actually. Oh, guess what? Central park is cool.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, well, Central Park's a tourist thing now. That's scary.

[Pablo Torre]

Am I breaking the news to you that it's largely European?

[Darren Aronofsky]

I. I haven't been above 56th street in, like, 30 years. It's been a long time since I've been up there. I mean, I drive up the FDR and pass it, and I'm always like, oh, there's people there, too.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I always, like, wonder, like, who are these people? Like, like, north of 50. I mean, there's big buildings with, like, lots of people in them and stuff. I have no idea who those people are. Nothing up there.

[Pablo Torre]

But that's also what's great about New York City.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yes, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

There are countries. There are republics.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. They're whole countries. It's just like, literally, it could break off and I would not even need a passport to get in because I have no interest.

[Pablo Torre]

And to be clear, some are luxury towers largely owned by, like, Chinese billionaires who never show up.

[Darren Aronofsky]

That's the weird thing when you, like, ghost apartments when you're coming in from wherever, JFK or whatever, and you look at the land. I have no idea what that is. It used to be. I knew every. Every skyscraper. And I have. There's these little thin things, and I'm like.

[Pablo Torre]

But then things are. That's what's over.

[Darren Aronofsky]

They're confusing. There's many of them, and they're all over the place now. And it's like, what is that?

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like we've become, at the end of this podcast, Statler and Waldorf just complaining about skyscrapers.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, you're welcome to be a New Yorker.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, no, it is.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Should we talk about Shea Stadium?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God. I mean, I'm so. I grew up a Yankee fan. Okay, so part of my.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Had you ever been to Shea?

[Pablo Torre]

Of course.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Okay. I don't know how you are.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, no, no, no. I mean, how dare you?

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

But old Yankee Stadium, even more than Shea. But Shea as well.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

What I miss, of course, is that feeling of like you walked in. Because all these places are now the equivalent of a billionaire's skyscraper, as well as the new Yankee Stadium.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. Which is not. City Field's pretty nice, though.

[Pablo Torre]

They're both beautiful.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah. I haven't been to the new Yankee Stadium, which is embarrassing. I gotta go see it.

[Pablo Torre]

Citi Field is better than New Yankee Stadium if I'm being objective. But both feel so Much less. I mean, Yankee Stadium, I'll speak to. Cause that's my experience growing up. Going to the bleachers, McDonald's, and just like, yelling at outfielders.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, truly.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, Raul Mondesi would just, like. We just, like, yell at him. He's like, on the team. We're just like.

[Darren Aronofsky]

I don't know. We're just.

[Pablo Torre]

This is what we do. It's less intimidating. Yeah, it's less. There used to be, like a home field advantage was actually a meaningful competitive advantage, and now it's just less. Because all the things you've described about New York and it's changing.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The glory of it, but also like the sanding down of those edges.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah. I remember when the Subway series. And I was like, I want it. I want tickets, Whatever it's going to take. And so I. I was. I had just made pie. I had a few Hollywood connections. I was like, calling anyone. I couldn't get tickets. And I was on a fifth floor walk up in Hell's Kitchen where I lived, and suddenly my door knocked. And Morgan, who lived on the third floor, she's like, you know, you want tickets to go see the games. I was like. And I forgot you worked for mlb. Like a neighbor in New York. So I had tickets. And I was like, well, how many can I get? She's like, how many you need? I was like, I'd like 10 tickets to the bleachers. So I had 10 tickets to the bleachers of every Subway Series game. And I brought my. All My Boys. And the worst. One of the worst experiences talking about home advantage was being at Shea. I guess it was. Was that still Shea? Yeah, it was at Shea when the Yankees won and there were more Yankees fans than Met fans. And the Yankees were booing. The fans were booing Mets at home. And I was like, eat it, Aronofsky. It sucks. So. No, it sucked because you guys had money and you bought all our tickets. I was so angry. I was so. I was like, this is so disrespectful to come someone's house and piss all over it. It was sucked. I got destroyed.

[Pablo Torre]

Sorry. That capitalism exactly exists. I want to quote something from you, okay. Because I. I want to geolocate where you are now with regard to this.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Okay?

[Pablo Torre]

Quote. I don't give a. About the test scores. My films are outside the scores. Ten men in a room trying to come up with their favorite ice cream are going to agree on vanilla. I'm the rocky road Guy.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Jesus. How old was I when I said that?

[Pablo Torre]

That was yesterday.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. You know, I totally tested this movie before 2014. Yeah. It was a different world. I totally tested this movie because, you know, Charlie Chaplin famously would tour his comedies around the States and he would go to bum wherever just to see Barnstorming. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so I was inspired by that because there is comedy in this and there's, like, violence in this and there's, like, shock moments, and I wanted to see how they were playing for different audiences, and I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot from it because, once again, it was a. It was a different exercise. It really was about making something fun and entertaining, and I wanted to reach people in that way. And so you learn a lot from it. You learn a lot, and you learn things unexpectedly. You get shaken up. Things shake up because you're like, okay, for some reason, something's not quite clicking. How do you get that to click?

[Pablo Torre]

And.

[Darren Aronofsky]

And so we. We did a bunch of it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Different. Different, Darren.

[Pablo Torre]

The. The whole notion of. Because you're how old now?

[Darren Aronofsky]

56.

[Pablo Torre]

At 56, you're like, the whole thing of what people.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Have always wanted from me, which is to listen to them.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

There's now a point at which that's creatively interesting.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I think, look, my mentor, Stuart Rosenberg, this great director who did Cool Hand Luke and Popogrange Village, he'd always say he had a sign on his desk that said, where is my audience now? And I think that's always true. And I've always believed that, like, even when I was making films that were more weird or abstract or disturbing, I am always thinking about it because you want people to, like, understand what's happening, even if it's not the most pleasant understanding of what's going on. I don't know. But, you know, I've done this before. The Wrestler is a similar film where you have a hero that you're rooting for who just can't get out of his own way. And. And awesome Butler really was able to do that. Was able to take a beating down to the mat, but always kind of dust himself up, stood up, you know, licked his chops and put up his dukes and started fighting again.

[Pablo Torre]

And.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, so. So it was kind of fun to do that.

[Pablo Torre]

Did you know that you want. And forgive me if this. This. I'll give a big spoiler alert.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Did you know that you wanted to do something with this one that you. I don't recall you doing, which is actually give people what feels like a happy ending.

[Darren Aronofsky]

It's a mixed happy ending, to be fair. But, yes, I felt it's a tough ending. It's a hard ending to land. It took us a while, and I think I wanted people to leave with a positive feeling into the world because I think the character is on an upswing. But this is the first of three books, and in many ways it's setting up a lot of things that happen later. I have no idea if that will happen. The film works as its own piece and has a very, very good ending, but it's a complicated ending because the character has gone through a lot and. And it's like, a lot to. There'll be a lot of, like, unpacking in the next few years of his life. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, in the last. Some of the last scenes. A literal unpacking.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God, yes. Yeah, we'll end it there, but thank you. But the whole thing of. I think you just. What I found out today is that Darren Aronofsky is finally. You're developing a cinematic universe. Dacu, dare I say, like Roland Roaster.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

You might be attempting a franchise.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Exactly. Well, hopefully we'll do better in Manhattan. Man. Thank you so much. I enjoyed this conversation.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God.

[Darren Aronofsky]

And when did you graduate Harvard?

[Pablo Torre]

2007.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Oh, that's right. Click.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

[Darren Aronofsky]

Sam.