Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode Title: "Pizzagate: We Investigate the (Real) Government Plot to Stuff You with Cheese"

Host: Pablo Torre
Guest Correspondent: David Gardner
Air Date: February 4, 2025

Overview

In this tongue-in-cheek, investigative episode, Pablo Torre and correspondent David Gardner peel back the gooey layers of the viral "government cheese caves" and stuffed crust pizza conspiracy. Prompted by a TikTok theory claiming the US government’s dairy surplus led directly to the invention of stuffed crust pizza, the PTFO team embarks on a journey exploring cheese policy from the Depression to Super Bowl Sunday, the workings of government-backed dairy groups, and the true origin of Pizza Hut’s famed stuffed crust pizza. Along the way, listeners are treated to real reporting, historical deep-dives, exclusive interviews, and revelations about the intersection of government policy, marketing, and American culinary culture.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Viral Cheese Conspiracy: Origin and Claims

• The internet—and especially TikTok—has circulated the theory that:

  • The US government bought massive amounts of surplus cheese to support the struggling dairy industry.
  • This cheese was stored in “cheese caves.”
  • Government agencies then worked with pizza chains to hide this surplus in products like stuffed crust pizza.
  • Thus, the government is why we have stuffed crust pizza.

  Notable quote:

  • [02:45] "The government is why we have stuffed crust pizza." – Cupcake the Destroyer 21 (TikTok)

2. The History & Reality of 'Government Cheese'

• Going back to the Great Depression, the US created federal guarantees for milk and dairy purchases to support farmers (1930s–40s).
• Subsidies led to overproduction, resulting in enormous government-owned cheese stockpiles by the 1980s.
• Cheese was stored in private underground caverns (e.g., Springfield Underground, Subtropolis) rather than in government-owned "cheese caves."
  Clarification:
  • [14:54] “It’s not government cheese caves, it’s government cheese in these caves.” – Pablo Torre

3. The Cheese Giveaways and Decline of 'Government Cheese'

• Facing 2 billion pounds of surplus cheese, the Reagan administration began massive public giveaways and wound down direct cheese purchases.
• The infamous “government cheese” disappeared; today, surplus government cheese no longer exists.
  Notable moment:
  • [19:19] “They started giving away the cheese that was in the cheese caves. And at the same time, they stopped buying so much cheese from dairy farmers.” – David Gardner

4. The Government’s Ongoing Role: Dairy Management Inc. (DMI)

• To prop up dairy demand, the government launched promotional agencies like DMI (founded in 1995), funded by a quasi-tax on dairy sales and overseen by the USDA.
• DMI’s mission: get Americans (and fast food chains) to use and market more cheese.
• DMI embeds food scientists in fast-food R&D labs and takes credit for innovations like Taco Bell’s Quesalupa, Domino’s Cheesy Tots, and claims to fixing McDonald’s ice cream machines.
  Notable quotes:
  • [23:15] “That was the birth of this entity called Dairy Management, whose mission it is to increase the consumption of cheese in every which way they can.” – Michael Moss (Pulitzer-winning journalist)
  • [25:20] “DMI actually embeds food scientists in America’s biggest fast food and restaurant chains … the goal … put more cheese and dairy products on menus.” – David Gardner

5. Legal and Health Implications

• The Supreme Court (2005) ruled that DMI's “speech” (ads and promotion) is “government speech”—meaning the government is, in a way, telling us to eat more cheese.
• Cheese consumption in the US has tripled since 1970, which experts link to health concerns such as obesity and heart disease.
  Critical moment:
  • [29:20] “Cheese was delivering … heart disease. And then to kind of realize that the federal government, with US taxpayer money supporting it, is in fact guiding and overseeing this effort to get us to eat more and more cheese.” – Michael Moss

6. Debunking the Stuffed Crust Conspiracy

• David Gardner tracks down Tom Ryan, the Pizza Hut food scientist and inventor of stuffed crust pizza (launched April 1, 1994).
• Ryan confirms he did not work for DMI; the innovation predates DMI’s founding; there was zero government involvement.
  Definitive soundbite:
  • [36:32] “On the record, there was no one from the federal government involved in the creation of this stuffed crust pizza.” – Tom Ryan, inventor of stuffed crust pizza

7. How the Government Is (Indirectly) in the Stuffed Crust Business

• DMI did help invent Pizza Hut’s later “Cheesy Bites” pizza (2007) and similar products, contributing to the misunderstanding and perpetuation of the conspiracy.
  • [37:48] "DMI did have a hand in creating a stuffed crust pizza. ...a later stuffed crust pizza that DMI helped to develop called the Cheesy Bites pizza, also from Pizza Hut." – David Gardner

8. Stuffed Crust Pizza’s Unexpected Cultural Legacy

• Pizza Hut’s original "crust first" ad concept almost starred Pete Rose, was scrapped, then led to Donald Trump’s first national commercial—giving Trump a financial reprieve on the path to his later fame.
  • [44:13] “This million dollars the Pizza Hut paid him for this commercial was a lifeline. …This was Trump’s first national ad campaign.” – Mike Campbell (ad exec)
  • [45:27] “It was the slice that launched a thousand groans.” – Mike Campbell

Notable Quotes & Moments With Timestamps

• [04:00] “Pizza Hut officials… the Lord of the Cheese and the Lady of the Cheese… agree to begin putting more cheese in the pizza, including in the crust.” – David Gardner
• [11:01] "By 1984, the government had a problem, which is that for every American citizen there were five pounds of cheese in storage." – David Gardner
• [19:46] “It was such a problem for Ronald Reagan to have this much cheese in these caves that he actually decided to give it to poor people. Like, that's how distasteful he found it.” – David Gardner
• [23:15] "[DMI’s] mission is to increase the consumption of cheese in every which way they can." – Michael Moss
• [25:20] “DMI actually embeds food scientists in America’s biggest fast food and restaurant chains and pizza chains…" – David Gardner
• [33:19] “Stuffed crust pizza was a novel idea. …The simple notion was to put cheese... into the least valued part of the pizza, which is the crust.” – Tom Ryan
• [36:32] “On the record, there was no one from the federal government involved in the creation of this stuffed crust pizza.” – Tom Ryan
• [40:04] “[Pizza Hut] turns to a new advertising agency… they're gonna run it during the Final Four in 1995. …I tracked down an advertising executive named Mike Campbell.” – David Gardner
• [41:20] “Eat the pizza the wrong way, crust first. I mean, it was that simple.” – Mike Campbell
• [44:13] “This million dollars the Pizza Hut paid him for this commercial was a lifeline.” – Mike Campbell
• [45:27] “It was the slice that launched a thousand groans.” – Mike Campbell
• [46:18] “[It’s] time for us to attack this pizza the way that you attacked your reporting, crust first.” – Pablo Torre

Timeline and Timestamps of Key Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment | |------------------|-------------| | 00:34–06:53 | Introduction to cheese conspiracy, Super Bowl & pizza context | | 07:04–12:29 | Government cheese: origins and policy motivations | | 12:29–15:03 | The truth of the cheese caves—logistics and locations | | 17:20–19:19 | What happened to the government cheese surplus? | | 19:19–24:08 | Shift from stockpiling to promotional marketing agencies | | 24:24–31:23 | DMI’s strategies—food scientists, brand partnerships, and health consequences | | 32:05–36:32 | The quest to find the true inventor of stuffed crust pizza | | 36:32–37:59 | Timeline and impact: original vs. later “government” stuffed crust pies | | 40:21–46:38 | The advertising saga: from Pete Rose to Donald Trump and cultural legacy |

Final Takeaways

• The viral “government cheese caves led to stuffed crust pizza” story is a classic case of internet myth-making—rooted in some truth about government cheese, but misapplied to stuffed crust innovation.
• The real story:
  • US government cheese stockpiling and giveaways ended before Pizza Hut’s stuffed crust pizza innovation.
  • The government (via DMI) now deeply influences how much cheese Americans eat, by marketing and quietly collaborating with fast food giants.
  • DMI was not involved in creating the original stuffed crust pizza—but did help with some later cheesy products.
  • Stuffed crust pizza’s most significant government impact? Perhaps launching Donald Trump’s late-20th century fame via Pizza Hut commercials.
• As Pablo says, for Super Bowl Sunday and beyond: every slice carries a little bit of American economic and cultural history—best enjoyed, perhaps, crust first.

Episode’s Closing Note

“All roads lead to the same place all the time, the same guy being at the center, the gooey center of a story that I did not think would end up here...”
– Pablo Torre [46:15]

[Crust first.]