PTFO Exclusive: The NFL Union Elected a New Leader. We Investigated the Hollywood Cover-Up They Ignored.

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out — Episode Summary

Title: PTFO Exclusive: The NFL Union Elected a New Leader. We Investigated the Hollywood Cover-Up They Ignored.
Release Date: August 14, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre
Featuring: Mike Florio, Ann Henry, Amy Berg, and others

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Episode Overview

Pablo Torre digs into the recent, controversial election of David White as interim executive director of the NFL Players Association (NFLPA). While the media and NFLPA leadership hastily clear White’s record, Pablo investigates the troubling Hollywood cover-up during White’s previous tenure running SAG-AFTRA, the screen actors’ union. The episode is a deep-dive exposé, blending investigative journalism with Pablo’s signature irreverence, as he uncovers ignored scandals, explores patterns of management-friendly leadership, and exposes failures to protect vulnerable members—both athletes and child actors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NFLPA’s Crisis of Leadership

• Recap: Lloyd Howell resigned in disgrace from the NFLPA due to a buried 61-page collusion ruling and a side gig with the Carlyle Group—a conflict of interest tied to league finances ([02:00]).
• Election of David White: Instead of a fresh start, the union elevates David White, previously runner-up to Howell and former head of SAG-AFTRA, echoing a “beauty pageant runner-up” scenario ([02:55], Mike Florio).
• Questionable Vetting: White's appointment is rubber-stamped as drama-free by NFLPA according to the Washington Post, despite significant unresolved issues from his past union tenure ([05:31]).

2. Patterns Between Sports & Entertainment Unions

• Overlap of Scandals & Practices:
  • Notable crossover between leadership in the Hollywood actors’ union (SAG-AFTRA) and the NFLPA, both “hostage to the same kind of management-friendly, backroom-deal mentality,” per Pablo and Mike ([07:05]).
  • Doug Allen, a former #2 at the NFLPA, previously ran SAG’s union before being replaced by David White ([07:13]).
• “Management-Friendly” Philosophy:
  • David White, much like Lloyd Howell, is seen as someone comfortable “playing ball” with management rather than fighting for membership—reverberating in decisions and scandals in both unions ([09:58]).

3. The Hollywood Cover-Up: SAG-AFTRA, Child Abuse, and ‘An Open Secret’

• Background:

  • Ann Henry, co-founder of BizParents Foundation, describes her evolution from navigating her children’s acting careers to discovering rampant child abuse and a culture of silence/protection for predators ([22:31]).
  • Henry: “There are kids today who did not put themselves in bad situations, parents who learned from that, and I think many more would have if SAG would have made a different decision, if David White would have made a different decision 10 years ago than he made on that day.” ([60:00])

• Key Case: Documentary Cover-Up

  • Amy Berg directed “An Open Secret,” a documentary investigating child sexual abuse in Hollywood ([28:51]).
  • SAG-AFTRA, under David White, sent a threatening legal letter demanding the removal of all references to the union and its Young Performers Committee ([50:23]).
    • Henry’s reaction: “The union is censoring the film? I don’t understand… that is completely antithetical to their mission.” ([49:09])
  • The union’s stated rationale: concern over logo/brand usage ([57:27]); Henry and Berg insist this was a cover-up to avoid organizational accountability.

• Failure to Protect Young Performers:

  • Illustrations include how Michael Harrah, a founding member of the Young Performers Committee—who confesses inappropriate behavior on tape—was shielded rather than expelled ([37:09], [46:26]).
  • Instead of addressing the crisis, leadership’s response was intimidation, denial, and attempted censorship of survivors’ stories.

4. The NFLPA’s Vetting: Reality Check

• Washington Post Rebuttal: NFLPA “fully vetted” White’s issues and found no disqualifiers ([09:29]).
• Reality: Neither Amy Berg nor Ann Henry was contacted by the NFLPA or any related search firm ([58:40]).
  • Berg: “No, they never did.” ([58:56])
  • Henry: “No one. No one has contacted me about this at all. Nothing.” ([59:07])

5. Patterns of Self-Dealing & Conflicts of Interest

• Union-Management Collusion:
  • Bob Pisano, White’s mentor, moved from law to Hollywood studio exec, to SAG lead, moonlighting on Netflix’s board—mirrored the NFLPA’s struggles ([15:40]).
  • White himself recently stepped down from board roles only after being named to the NFLPA executive director—a pattern of late, incomplete disclosures ([17:01]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On NFLPA’s Selection Process:
  • Mike Florio (02:55): “It’s basically what they did with David White, because it did go so well in the selection of Lloyd… much like a beauty contest when Miss Wherever is unable to fulfill her obligations, they elevate the first runner up.”
• Critiquing Sports Union Philosophy:
  • Pablo Torre (13:22): “I've been the guy fighting against unions for the corporation. So I know exactly how they think and how they do things.”
  • Mike Florio (14:01): “…the owners want you, the players, to think it’s a partnership, and it’s not. So please, come partner with us as we extend a hand in friendship and then…the other hand has a knife that is swinging around to gut you.”
• On Leadership Cover-Up:
  • Ann Henry (54:17): “…when that inflection point happens, you have to decide how you’re going to respond… That’s leadership. That’s what they could have done. Here we are ten years later and David White is still, still denying it. Ten years later.”
• On NFLPA Vetting Claims:
  • Amy Berg (58:56): “No, they never did.”
  • Ann Henry (59:07): “No one. No one has contacted me about this at all. Nothing.”
• On Institutional Responsibility:
  • Pablo Torre (59:12): “…was this malice or incompetence? And is that just another attempted distinction at this point, without much of a difference?”

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Important Timestamps

• 00:34: Pablo and Mike introduce the episode's focus on the call for “Epstein files” and probe why so many listeners want answers about abuse cover-ups.
• 02:00: Recap of Lloyd Howell resignation and shrouded NFLPA executive search process.
• 09:29–12:33: Washington Post claims on David White’s vetting; Pablo begins detailed examination.
• 14:01: Mike Florio explains how owners manipulate labor partnerships.
• 22:31: Ann Henry’s background, introduction to BizParents Foundation, and early suspicions about child actor exploitation.
• 28:51: Story of “An Open Secret”—the documentary, the cover-up, and Henry’s and Berg’s roles.
• 37:09: Revelation of Michael Harrah’s on-camera confession and SAG-AFTRA’s response.
• 49:09: Ann Henry dissects the shock and implications of the union’s legal threat letter.
• 58:40–59:12: Pablo confirms with Berg and Henry: NFLPA never contacted either during vetting.
• 62:23–63:30: NFLPA leadership’s public justifications and continued doubling down.

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Key Takeaways

• Leadership Patterns Repeat: The NFLPA’s choice of David White signals a recycling of management-friendly, secretive, and often self-dealing leadership, paralleling abuses and cover-ups long festering in Hollywood’s unions.
• Failure of Due Diligence: Despite claims to the contrary, the NFLPA did not meaningfully vet disturbing episodes in White’s past tenure, nor did leadership contact key figures involved in those events.
• Cover-Up over Accountability: Faced with revelations of abuse and organizational complicity, both SAG-AFTRA and, now, the NFLPA’s approach is to rewrite the narrative, minimize the story, and shield leadership from consequences.
• Victims’ Voices vs. Institutional Reputation: The impetus behind the episode is the cost born by the most vulnerable when powerful organizations prioritize image and management relations over duty of care.

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Episode Tone and Style

Pablo Torre presents a journalistic investigation with irreverent yet grave commentary, complimented by Mike Florio's sardonic humor and Ann Henry’s honest, emotional recollections. The episode is rigorous, well-sourced, and at times chilling—anchored by survivor testimony and first-hand experience. The style is lively, sharp, and deeply empathetic toward victims while unsparing of institutional failures.

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Final Reflection

Pablo ends by asking whether the NFLPA’s failures are “malice or incompetence”—but finds little meaningful difference. The unchecked recycling of power, refusal to address hard truths, and unwillingness to protect the vulnerable are, ultimately, two sides of the same coin.

Listen to this episode for a masterclass in institutional accountability—or the lack thereof—and the high cost of repeating old mistakes.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Ann Henry]

There are kids today who did not put themselves in bad situations, parents who learned from that, and I think many more would have if SAG would have made a different decision, if David White would have made a different decision 10 years ago than he made on that.

[Pablo Torre]

Day right after this ad. Yeah, Mike, I, I dragged you here. Let's be honest about what's happening today.

[Mike Florio]

Kicking and screaming.

[Pablo Torre]

You had reservations, you had reservations, strenuous objections. But the number one request that I keep on just trying to suppress but attend to in the back of my head, and this is the number one request by far that we get from the Internet, Mike, is can you please investigate Jeffrey as Epstein?

[Mike Florio]

I've seen it so many times now, I don't think it's a joke anymore. I think they really do believe that you have the power, not me, because I haven't really added much to this production other than charm. But you, you have the chops. You can find Epstein list, if there is one.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Our YouTube channel on Monday innocuously posted the following question for our audience. Quote, should we find some things out this week? And the most popular response, again by far, metrically, was quote, the Epstein files, period. Impress us. Period. And so I fear that, yes, the only thing that can satisfy the next phase of this NFL, NFLPA ongoing collaboration of a series that is endless, that we have been engaged in, the two of us together, is in fact digging up documents that help investigate a powerful cover up of. Yeah, pedophilia.

[Mike Florio]

So, hello, the act of concealment. It's an impressive thing when they pull it off.

[Pablo Torre]

In this case I bring you back because another week has passed where I end up using my would be vacation investigating yet another major development in this story, the story about the NFL and the nflpa. And this development should ring a bell for anybody who listened to episode three of this series only two weeks ago. Because last week, Mike, the NFLPA finally elected their interim executive director to replace Lloyd Howell, who for those who have not been paying any attention, had to resign in disgrace on account of, you know, that buried 61 page collusion ruling that we surfaced as well as a conflict of interest side gig with the Carlisle Group, which has a financial relationship, of course, with the NFL. There were strip club receipts, there was the ongoing FBI investigation into one team which we dissected at length in episode three. But the guy that the NFLPA has elected to replace that guy, Lloyd Howell, is who?

[Mike Florio]

David White, also known as the guy who finished second in a two man race that resulted in the hiring of Lloyd Howell. You know, it went so well the last time. The process was so flawless and unimpeachable. Let's just go back and elevate the first runner up. Much like a beauty contest when the Miss Wherever is unable to fulfill her obligations over the course of the ensuing year, they elevate the first runner up. That's basically what they did with David White because it did go so well in the selection of Lloyd.

[Pablo Torre]

How we are so close to making a second runner up Miss Maine pageant reference to Jordan Hudson. Um, but I'm gonna. Not me, you, I'm gonna. Both of us, I think is is fair to point out both of us, but David White, who was most famously previous to this election, the head, the executive director of SAG aftra, which is the Actors Guild in Hollywood.

[Mike Florio]

I'm a member by the way. I'm a member, I think on the AFTRA side. Not the SAG side, the AFTRA side.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, the AFTRA side figures in, in a second here. Put a pin in Mike Florio's membership on AFTRA and this side, SAG aftra, because that is a David White joint. The merging of those two unions, which we'll get to. But David White in the present tense is in fact the winner of. Yes, this sequel to the most corrupted search in the history of pro sports unions in America. Engineered by J.C. treader, a subject of our reporting previously. The chief strategy officer who told the union, by the way in an article on the website at one point to trust the process. That was the headline before of course he wound up resigning himself days after Lloyd Howell. And so yes, now we get Mike, the candidate that JC Treader in the reporting after all of this mess became public. We get the guy that JC Treader says, actually I wanted this guy all along.

[Mike Florio]

The guy who won the 10 to 1 straw poll that was conducted by the executive committee. Of course there's no evidence of. And for whatever reason they didn't bother to tell the board of player representatives before they voted for the. The guy who got the 1 in the 10 to 1 vote. And there's no way to prove like I'll see articles where the 10 to 1 vote by the executive committee is treated like gospel truth. There is no way to verify that that actually happened. And I wish that the people who are writing these stories, and I don't need to name names, they know who they are and we do too. I wish they would not Treat it like it is a provable, objective fact act, because it is not.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I fully agree. And yet today what I want to do is actually take them at their word. Let's say you wanted David White, because there was another development, a significant development, Mike, in the reporting around this story in the Washington Post. And this reporting was in fact the tipping point for me, because this article from the Washington Post, it involves a series of statements from, again, what is left of this same NFLPA regime. And this regime officially pushes back on my reporting in episode three. And they argued that two issues that I brought up about David White's previous tenure as the executive director of Mike Florio's union, sag, aftra, that now that these are not problems at all. In fact, to quote the Washington Post, the NFLPA emerged from its vetting convinced there were no issues that would disqualify White as a candidate. So before we get to these two issues in specific that the NFLPA has now waved away in the Washington Post, I just want to quickly note something, Mike, that my Hollywood sources, my own union sources have been telling me all week, which is that SAG and the nflpa, there's actually something of a Venn diagram here. And this is in terms of overlapping circles of leadership, but also in terms of the problems that face both actors and athletes. And in fact, Mike, you may remember one particular name from your decades of running Pro Football Talk, the nation's foremost clearinghouse for NFL news and information. And that name is Doug Allen.

[Mike Florio]

Doug Allen, the number two, essentially, for Gene Upshaw, who led the NFLPA's executive director for some 28 years.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, the former Penn State linebacker under Joe Paterno, who then played for the Bills, who in 2007 left the NFLPA after 25 years, right underneath Gene Upshaw to become SAG's executive director. But by 2009, just two years later, Doug Allen was ousted amid internal unrest of his own. And so the union selected an interim executive director, if any of this is sounding familiar at this point, to replace Doug Allen, the football guy. And the guy they chose as interim happens to be SAG's former general counsel at the time. None other than David White. And David White, Mike, would proceed to get the full time job around 2012. And that is when he managed the merger, the hotly debated, very controversial merger, because does Leonardo DiCaprio really want to be in a union with Mike Florio? Right.

[Mike Florio]

You know, I don't think. I don't think that takes high level journalism skills to get the answer to I think we can make an assumption as to what Leonardo would have to say.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. After which is the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. This whole merger grows the union, that union, to more than 150,000 members. It's an enormous organism now, which meant, by the way, that David White's command of the granular details was essential. David.

[Mike Florio]

SAG is affiliated with the AFL CIO.

[Michael Hera]

Through an organization known as the 4A's, which is the association of American Artist.

[Pablo Torre]

Of something with an A. Look, I'm not here to dunk on a guy for not knowing all the acronyms, even though he is the again executive director of the union. I am here to point out that all of this brings us back to those two issues, Mike, those two detail laden issues that I brought up in episode three that the NFLPA has waved away in the Washington Post. And issue number one was David White's willingness to play ball with management. If you could do me a favor here and just read from the gust pages of the Washington Post, quote, the.

[Mike Florio]

Podcast Pablo Torre finds out reported that after White left SAG AFTRA In 2021, he was rumored to be in the running to lead the alliance of motion picture and television producers. In a move that would have suggested he was willing to play ball with management, it said. The NFLPA spokesperson said White was not a candidate for such a position, but was approached by a recruiter regarding his interest in the role and he declined, end of quote.

[Pablo Torre]

This is where I should also reiterate something. David White, as you know, Ghosted me on LinkedIn as well as over email and text, by the way. So I cannot verify any of this stuff. But I again, I just want to accept at face value what they're saying now, which is that David White was recruited, rooted, but declined the job of Hollywood Roger Goodell. And so what I did was interview a bunch of trade union sources in Hollywood and also just read a ton of the coverage of David White at the time because again, it's the Hollywood press, they're all over this stuff. What becomes clear, Mike, is that David White's scouting report is actually a lot like Lloyd Howell's in one key respect. He was known to be management friendly and this wasn't really in dispute. In 2009, the prominent entertainment reporter Nikki Fink wrote about David White, quote, the big media moguls have told me they like this guy, which is good or bad, depending on a SAG member's point of view, end quote. And this week, one high level Hollywood union source told me, quote, David White isn't a fighter. He glad hands. And then my source proceeded to joke, as if communing directly with Mike Florio, quote, david White would have buried the collusion ruling too. End quote. And look, I. I want to be fair here, because if this parallel to Lloyd Howell seems over the top, there is just one thing, one other fact pattern I want to mention for you. Because David White had previously been SAG's general counsel. It turns out that the person who brought him there at age 33, he was a prodigy of sorts, was his mentor. His mentor is a guy named Bob Pisano. And Bob Pisano worked at the same law firm David White did. Bob Pisano then left that firm to become an executive vice president at Paramount. And then he left Paramount to become the vice chairman of MGM. And then he became SAG's executive director in 2001. And I'm going to quote for you here from Backstage magazine, Mike, this is the Hollywood trade publication. Because when Bob Pisano was hired, they said it was because of, quote, the strength of his studio and executive background, which was seen as an asset in contract negotiations. It was the first time the union had gone outside of its own ranks to fill the spot, End quote. And I just wonder if any of this, any of this logic sounds a little familiar to you at this point.

[Mike Florio]

This all gets back to the post Demorris Smith vision for the NFL Players Association. The idea that fighting doesn't get us where we want to be. We need to negotiate, not litigate. So even though Lloyd Howell didn't pan out, instead of swinging the pendulum back the other way, they just, as we previously established, elevated his first runner up from a process that was hopelessly inept. Because in many respects, it was the same people making that decision. And my guess would be they had no other better idea. So let's just go back to the well, and take the guy who finished second to the guy who didn't work out.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. To quote one of the NFL player reps who told ESPN about Lloyd Howell's pitch to them, just to draw the parallel as precisely as possible, they said, quote, in a nutshell, it was like, I'm going to know how to negotiate with the owners because I am from their world. I am a businessman. The player said. I've been the guy fighting against unions for the corporation. So I know exactly how they think and how they do things, end quote. And this is a philosophy, you know, on top of all of the corruption, it is a worldview. It is an ethos. To quote the big Lebowski, MIKE and the process really brings the room together, it turns out.

[Mike Florio]

Here's what bothers me about it, because Lloyd Howell, David White, same attitude, we don't want to fight, but we've been in management and we know how to fight unions, but as the union, we don't want to fight. And it gets back to this imbalance where and it was articulated very well by Sean Gilbert when he tried to unseat DeMora Smith a decade ago as executive director of the NFLPA. They want you, they, the owners want you, the players to think it's a partnership and it's not. So please, come partner with us as we extend a hand in friendship and then the other hand has a knife that is swinging around to gut you.

[Pablo Torre]

But the funniest parallel between the David White, Bob Pisano stuff and the Lloyd Howell stuff, which explains all the things you just said, the funniest parallel here, Mike, is something else that I found out while diving into these guys history together, because when Bob Pizzano was head of sag, the actors union, there was a scandal, it was a conflict of interest scandal and it was centered around the breaking news at the time that Bob Pisano and I want you to just brace yourself for this. Bob Bazzano quietly had a side gig on the board of directors of Netflix. And according to SEC filings, Bob Bazzano had made millions cashing in his Netflix stock options. If that just sounds a little, a little familiar to something, we've covered.

[Mike Florio]

No problem at all. Everything is fine. What are you going to do, hold back guys who are a little enterprising and want to make some money on the side? Why would you want to hold them down?

[Pablo Torre]

PABLO well, the guy that Bob Pisano got to make that argument for him and more, I'd like you to guess who he was.

[Mike Florio]

I assume it's David White. I would assume it's David White.

[Pablo Torre]

It was Bob Pisano's mentee, SAG's general counsel that he had brought to the union, David White, who again, according to the Washington Post, as per the nflpa, definitely does not play ball with management. And so now you may be wondering if you're listening to this, maybe David White has distanced himself from his mentor because it's been a while. And that is true. But there's just one more detail about all of this, about this particular issue that made me laugh very hard because last week, and this was on account of the whole Lloyd Howell conflict of interest, Carlisle Group part time consulting gig thing, which is the parallel we've been referencing over and over again. The NFLPA also announced that David White, having now won the interim NFLPA job, had officially stepped down from the other boards he serves on. This is now officially unlike Lloyd Howell. As the Washington Post also explained, quote.

[Mike Florio]

According to the spokesperson, he is resigning from his board service, including his role on the board of global professional services and consulting firm rgp. The spokesperson said White no longer serves as the board chair of the Federal Reserve bank of San Francisco, end quote.

[Pablo Torre]

And the Federal Reserve bank of San Francisco. I kind of can guess what that is. Cool. Rgp. I don't know if you had any idea what this is. I absolutely did not. I googled it stands for Resources Global Professionals. But the most relevant detail about the board of rgp, the board that David White was on happens to concern the chairman of that board. And I will give you one guess, Mike, as to who the chairman of that board is.

[Mike Florio]

While the universe would be in perfect synchronization if that person were indeed Lloyd Howell, I will assume that perfection has not quite been crafted to that level. And I will say that it had to have been Robert J. I have no idea if that's his middle initial. Pisano.

[Pablo Torre]

Bob Pisano. And his name is a period. Robert Pisano is the right answer. And so history does in a sense. You know, it is rhyming here for you.

[Mike Florio]

Well, and this is the mindset that the Union wanted in 2023. They wanted someone who had this connective tissue to management and they got him and it didn't work. So let's just try it again maybe. And there's a certain logic to it. Maybe it's like flipping a coin and it'll land on heads this time around.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Or. Or you end up showing your tails. Papazano said in a glowing press release last week about his mentee, quote, we wish him well in his new position as a fully dedicated leader of the NFL Players Union, end quote. This level of responsibility and apparent transparency though, it brings us at long last to the second issue that I brought up in episode three with you that David White had faced as the NFLPA is again declaring via the Washington Post that they have fully vetted and dismissed all concerns about the guy they have elected. And this second issue to me is actually the way bigger issue. It's the biggest story here to me because it involves SAG AFTRA's attempt to. To allegedly censor a documentary, a documentary made by one of their own members, an Academy Award nominated documentarian. And this documentary was about the sexual abuse of child actors in Hollywood and also SAG AFTRA's attempt to allegedly cover all this up.

[Mike Florio]

Quote In 2015, Deadline reported that SAG AFTRA had threatened to sue director Amy Berg unless she removed all references to to the union in her documentary An Open Secret, according to the report. The union denied it threatened a lawsuit and White repeated that denial in an email to the union's board of directors. Berg told Deadline that the union used legal threats to try to sanitize the film. The NFLPA has reviewed this issue closely and feels confident that it has been fully briefed on the facts and context, the spokesperson told the Post. The NFLPA concluded the spokesperson said that the core issue was focused on the unauthorized use of SAG AFTRA's name and brand in the film. The union requested that no inaccurate reference to SAG AFTRA be made that tied the union to any alleged misconduct. Out of context. The SAG AFTRA board was informed of and involved in this matter at the time. End quote.

[Pablo Torre]

A hell of a day. If you've been in fact in our comments begging PTFO to investigate something related to the Jeffrey Epstein cover up because this is gonna be the episode for you and for this part of this series. Mike I had to talk to somebody we have not talked about or named before. This is an impressive new character in this whole story and they're gonna join me after. Thank you for listening to a bunch of the NFLPA episodes we've done. So you understand what I'm generally doing here, I guess.

[Ann Henry]

I think so. Maybe I'm not really terribly a sports person, but my whole family is, so I get it. But I had not heard any of this story before, so when you call it, it was a new shock. So.

[Pablo Torre]

So I should just clarify here that the name of the person I am talking to is Anne Henry. And Ann Henry is truly one of the most remarkable people that I have ever come across. And although Ann Henry did not realize this, last week she became essential to understanding where the NFLPA, and therefore America's most popular and powerful sport, goes from here.

[Ann Henry]

I am the co founder of a nonprofit called Bizparents Foundation. We are a nonprofit that serves the families of professional child actors. So our clientele, our families have to learn how to navigate a world that's unfamiliar. Things like finances, labor unions, and contract negotiations. We started out just doing business and then over time we stumbled upon a world that we weren't expecting and that ended up being some child abuse issue.

[Pablo Torre]

Shoes during the Day Just to be clear, Ann Henry has a different job. She Works at an elementary school in Southern California. But in 2004, she co founded Biz Parents, the volunteer organization she's describing for us for a very simple reason. Ann Henry's three kids all became child actors. And she quickly noticed something strange.

[Ann Henry]

When our kids were working, when they started out, very small headshots were paper. They were actual paper headshots. Like think old school Hollywood. You know, black and white are color headshots. And we found our own children, our boys, being sold on ebay for lots of money, hundreds and hundreds of dollars. And they weren't sexy pictures. They were just Pictures of little 8 year old boys. Like cutesy wootsy little 8 year old boys in Oshkosh overalls, you know, and you're like, why the would anybody want those? And it took a while until we figured out that there were some very bad men who wanted those headshots. The world of people who should have been protecting kids weren't doing it.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is how the Biz Parents foundation has since done more than any other organization to raise awareness of child abuse in Hollywood. And if this topic makes you queasy and you want to stop listening to this episode entirely, honestly, I completely understand.

[Ann Henry]

We probably knew who Jeffrey Epstein was around 2008, 2009. At first you think it's crazy and then you start to find some kernels of truth and you go, oh, but what if, what if some of it's true? And then you're like, oh God. And the more you start to realize there are some grains of truth and you go, crap. Well, I gotta figure out which what's true. I gotta sort what's true and what's not.

[Pablo Torre]

This vetting done by Ann Henry, who wound up serving as an FBI informant by the way, in at least one child abuse case, proved to be well ahead of its time. And it goes well beyond Jeffrey Epstein. For instance, you may have heard about that documentary that came out last year called Quiet on Set, in which the former child actor Drake Bell, who was the star of the popular 2000s Nickelodeon show Drake and Josh, finally stepped forward to admit that he was the anonymous victim of an acting coach sl actor by the name of Brian Peek.

[Drake Bell]

I don't know. I really don't know how to elaborate on that on camera, really.

[Pablo Torre]

Whatever you feel comfortable or you think will help.

[Drake Bell]

Why don't you do this? Yeah, why don't you think of the worst stuff that someone could do to somebody as a sexual assault and that'll answer your question. I don't know how else to Put was not a one time thing. It was not a. Oops, I. No, I mean, I.

[Pablo Torre]

You should know that Ann Henry and biz parents had been all over that specific story. They've been building their own files, actually their own collection of tips and notes and police records and ebay transactions for years and years, warning people about how Brian Peck had pleaded no contest in 2004 to two felonies in relation to an anonymous child actor whose identity this organization of moms had chosen to protect.

[Ann Henry]

We knew all of it. We knew all of it. And we had kept that secret for 10 years. I don't think I've ever told anybody this, but we felt very strongly about Drake Bell. I'm going to cry because he was so brave. He is the only victim that has ever been successful in Hollywood at going all the way through and getting a sex offender convicted as a child, getting him on the sex offender list and keeping his identity secret.

[Pablo Torre]

Which now brings us to July 1, 2013, when a California law that Ann Henry and the Biz Parents foundation had personally spent years fighting for finally passed. AB 1660, the child performer Protection act officially mandated a fingerprinted database of approved providers so that all parents could legitimately vet the people working with their kids. And for the first time, it became a crime for anyone with a previous sex offense to work with children in Hollywood. All of this caught the attention of an Academy Award nominated documentarian named Amy Berg, who went on to direct a pretty astonishing 2014 documentary about pedophilia in Hollywood called An Open Secret. And that specific documentary is the entire reason that a journalist like me, who has been vetting David White's 12 year tenure as the executive director of SAG AFTRA and now his less than two week tenure as the head of the NFLPA, decided to reach out to Ann Henry in the first place.

[Ann Henry]

Amy Berg's production company had already done a documentary about the Catholic Church, so they had some knowledge of Predator behavior. So she came to us to say, what do you guys know? Can we follow you around Sacramento as you do this law? And at that point we said, you know, have we got some files for you? So we got together and decided that for the first time ever, we would consider letting someone look at our files. And the files were messy. They were very messy because we had no way to have the manpower as a nonprofit of volunteers to really data sort all of those little scraps of paper and little half notes because most of these people had not been convicted. It's just little things like a parent calling Us and saying, this guy hugs my kid too much on set and he gives me the creeps. Okay, nobody's getting arrested for that. But it's one of those things that, you know, is a first sign, you know, is something, you know, you just. Your gut tells you that's bad. And when 10 people tell you that, that. That's the point when we all know we should do something. But you can't call the police. Right? What do you do at that point? So that's what we did.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the database that no one had been keeping, that you guys had been on a voluntary basis out of an instinct to protect the most vulnerable members of our society, let alone this Actor's Guild. Right. And so if that's the state of the union when it comes to how open this secret has been in Hollywood, I do want to turn my attention now to the entity, the committee inside of SAG aftra, that is ostensibly charged with looking after these kids. Because the Young Performers Committee and is really essential to where and why our paths here ended up crossing over.

[Ann Henry]

There is a committee called the Screen Actors Guild Young Performers Committee. And it's existed for about 40 years. The committee meets once a month or so. They do orientations for kids as they join the union and talk to them about all the ways that they can help them and classes they can give them and how they should manage their money and things like that, if the kids choose to partake in that kind of education.

[Pablo Torre]

So I'm looking up the history of it. Co founded in 1975. And the man that I want to draw our attention to is a man by the name of Michael Hara.

[Ann Henry]

Michael Hera was one of the founding members of that Young Performers Committee. He's been a leader on the committee. He's one of the originals.

[Michael Hera]

A lot of managers now in the business. When I first came to town managing kids, I was the only one. No one else managed children. They never heard of it. They looked at me like I was crazy. Several of the established agents wouldn't even talk to me.

[Pablo Torre]

I might.

[Michael Hera]

I must be a terrible person if I was coming with all these kids.

[Ann Henry]

He was always the knowledge in the room. He knew the history of everything at SAG there was to know about the young performers. Everything. He knew the contracts left and right. He was the person who led all the orientations. For as long as I can remember. He had a SAG Kids on his license plate. That was his personalized license plate.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, wait, wait. So his. His car.

[Ann Henry]

His car.

[Pablo Torre]

The custom plate said what SAG kids, right?

[Ann Henry]

Yeah. His side gig, which I didn't know for some time, but I came to know and I did know him personally. His side gig was he was managing child actors, but his role in SAG was a leader. He was a leader, but a volunteer leader. He was not on payroll at sag, as far as I know.

[Pablo Torre]

It reminds me, though, there was this meeting, a Young Performers Committee meeting, which is mentioned in an open secret. And it's a meeting that you were at. This was a meeting that seemingly had been called because of a well known publicist in Hollywood named Bob Villard.

[Ann Henry]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Who had worked with Leonardo DiCaprio and Tobey Maguire. And again, this brings us back to what you mentioned, which is ebay and those photographs.

[Ann Henry]

This meeting was a. Was a Young Performers Committee meeting, a regular meeting. A bunch of parents came to this meeting because it had been publicized in the LA Times that this guy Bob Villard was arrested and they were looking for more victims. The parents brought the article from the LA Times, a particular parent named Kathy McCall and said, Are you going to send out an email or something to the SAG members that are minors saying, are there victims of this man? Like, don't you think people ought to know? Because if they don't get the LA Times, they're not going to know. And this guy seems like a bad guy. Bob Villard, by the way, had already had a long history of porn.

[Pablo Torre]

I was looking for articles and I found, yes, LA Times in this case, 1988, quote. A California agent for child actors was convicted in a New Jersey court Monday on charges of interstate transportation of child pornography. A Camden federal court jury found Robert D. Villard of Van nuys guilty on two counts of transporting a pornographic photo and two magazines aimed at pedophiles to New Jersey on November 14, 1986, and then transporting them back to California two days later.

[Ann Henry]

That had already happened. So now we're on another one. He's being picked up again and the parents bringing it a SAG and saying, don't you think we ought to tell people about this guy?

[Pablo Torre]

About the convicted sex offender.

[Ann Henry]

Yeah. Who's now being arrested again and is.

[Pablo Torre]

Also a photographer of some kind.

[Ann Henry]

His shtick was that he would do these photography sessions to other pedophile men, managers. And that was the story was, come on over, I'll take some wink, wink headshots for your clients. And the pictures would end up in all kinds of interesting Internet places. We get to the meeting, we're all, there's probably 30 parents there. And Michael Hera goes bonkers and is like, absolutely not. We are not putting this out to the members. And 30 parents went, what the. You know, and that was the first time. It was like, okay, something's weird about this guy. Michael Hera is not a good guy.

[Pablo Torre]

When did you realize the depths of what Michael Hera was actually involved in?

[Ann Henry]

Honestly, I didn't realize it until the interview. In an open secret.

[Michael Hera]

I'm one of the founding members of the then Screen Actors Guild Young Performers Committee, now SAG aftra, and I have been the chair of the committee and the. The past. Now I'm just a foot soldier. Children are mostly willing to listen. They're ready to absorb things. They haven't yet developed any preconceived ideas about who they are and how they're going to get somewhere. We try and advise them what directions to go in. And when you're doing that, you're managing the parent as well.

[Ann Henry]

I didn't know. I really didn't know. There were hints, but I never saw him with a child. I saw him with children, but I never saw him do anything with a child. That was weird. I mean, my daughter was on the committee with him. I never heard any allegations. No one ever complained about him because they wouldn't have. So the only thing I saw was that one moment in that meeting years before and until I had the phone call from production who called me that day of the interview and said, and you are not going to believe what just happened in this interview. And I went, what? They told me, we just got on camera this wild situation where a victim called him on the phone.

[Pablo Torre]

It is crazy to me that I did not know about this until the whole David White NFLPA story brought me to this, because it's. I mean, just to. So I. I talked to Amy Berg about that day, and I mean, she calls it, you know, one of the most disturbing hours of her entire life. Let me just make sure I get all this down. Yeah.

[Amy Berg]

What I remember is that Michael Hera was a manager of some prominent actors, and I requested an interview with him through the Screen Actors Guild. I think it was SAG aftra. And their publicity person asked me a bunch of questions and then the interview was approved, and he showed up with a SAG AFTRA representative who was sitting in the other room. And I started asking him questions and he started to confess to me things. I mean, are you attracted to young boys?

[Michael Hera]

Not particularly, no. So much of what goes on in these situations happen almost by accident. You get the idea that someone out There was a child predator and they were preying on children and everything they did was to steer the child into this. And a lot of the, the ones that I, I at least was aware of just. They just sort of fell into it.

[Amy Berg]

Did anyone ever try anything on you when you were a kid actor?

[Michael Hera]

Well, I guess so. I don't. My whole approach to the whole thing was. Was not sexual. I mean, it was. Yeah, I suppose somebody did. If I would be hard pressed to remember anything specific. But it wasn't uncommon, let's put the.

[Joey C.]

That way.

[Michael Hera]

It's difficult when you're living in a situation where there isn't the adult supervision. There should be to see how things are going to be perceived. And I don't know what else to say about it.

[Pablo Torre]

The first thing that you realize is that, wait a minute. Michael Hera and Bob Villard, those guys weren't just mere acquaintances.

[Michael Hera]

No, I knew Bob Villard casually as someone who was in the industry. And he did do publicity sometimes for clients that I had.

[Ann Henry]

And he handled big names like Toby Mc.

[Pablo Torre]

So then there is a child actor who goes by the name of Joey C. Now a grown up in the film. And he says, in fact, I met Bob Villard through a guy named Michael Hera.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

So I meet Bob Villard as a publicist who can, as a good photographer, bring exposure and whatnot. I believe through Michael Hera.

[Ann Henry]

He was one of our biggest ebay sellers. It became obvious to us that Bob Villard was selling candid photos that he had taken.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

You're there for a weekend and he feels just comfortable enough to try to touch. When you drank a few beers or it's always good to get that few beers. And he tries to touch me.

[Ann Henry]

We always knew his photo style because he typically had the kids shirtless, typically took an angle that was from the top down so that the children are looking up at the camera as they would be looking up at the predator in an abuse situation.

[Pablo Torre]

So now all these questions are being raised about, okay, wait, so the Michael Hera part of this thing, what was he doing? And there's another child actor actually who is interviewed in this film again now a grown up. His name is James G. And he observed something about Michael Harrah's home, which also kind of like set me back a couple feet.

[James G.]

You know, being up sometimes really early to go to these auditions and stuff. That was when Michael had Michael Harrod approach me and said, you know, well, you can come and stay at my house with, you know, the other guys that are There he had three other guys staying in the house with him that were his clients.

[Michael Hera]

Many of the kids that I worked with couldn't have even been able to take advantage of being in the industry had they had to have their families.

[James G.]

Move, move here with them from 10, 11 to 16, 17. But I still thought it was rather odd, you know, that someone would let their 10 year old son move in with at the time, I think mid-50s year old man.

[Michael Hera]

I do see the possibility that things can be misinterpreted and I try to be very aware of that. No matter how closely you're working with someone and you do work closely with clients in these situations, there still has to be that professional line in there where you say, we're not stepping over this.

[Ann Henry]

Just so you know, there is zero norm for that in the entertainment industry. None. None whatsoever. It ties to current events in the, at Jeffrey Epstein world. Why do we have models giving massages? Why did he have, you know, it's that, it's, that's what's happening. They're convincing people that they need an opportunity and that they can provide them an opportunity that will further their skills and their life. You know, this is a lucky opportunity. They'll give them all the circumstances and possibilities if they just do this right. No, no.

[Pablo Torre]

All of this brings us to Joey C. Calling up Michael Hera on camera.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Yes, hello, Michael. Yes, hi, this is Joey.

[Joey C.]

Well, hello, Joey.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Yeah, how are you?

[Joey C.]

About you.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

What? You were. What?

[Joey C.]

I was just thinking about you.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Oh, you were?

[Joey C.]

Yeah, I was. I was reading an old Hawaii magazine and I was thinking about you.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Yeah, well, it's been a while, huh?

[Joey C.]

Yeah, it has. I haven't talked to you in a while. Kind of lost track of you.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Yeah. What about you? What are you doing?

[Joey C.]

I've retired.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

You have?

[Joey C.]

I still have 12 clients that still come around, but it's not like it was, and so I'm not taking on anybody new. I say that and then watch, I'll do it.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

But what about. Have you heard from Bob lately?

[Joey C.]

Bob Villard? Oh, Bob Vallart. Last I heard he was in prison, Joey.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Oh, is that right? For what?

[Joey C.]

Well, I assume some sort of a problem with children, but because they tried several times to get him and somehow or other they didn't, but last I heard he was. So now I don't know anything about that. I don't know how long it was or anything else. So, no, I haven't heard from him in a long, long time. Oh, I've forgotten about him, actually.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Well, that's kind of.

[Pablo Torre]

That's.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

He's. That's kind of the reason why I got out of the business. I don't know if you ever remember that I slid his lip open with throwing something at him, and I was on my way home, never to come back. And I, I've gone through a lot of therapy, and I, I don't condone it, anything that he tried to do. And I got. Lord knows what he's done to anybody else. I don't know. And I don't know Joey.

[Joey C.]

And, you know, I take these things with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how old horrible they really are.

[Pablo Torre]

At that point in the documentary, you're already like, okay, so Michael Hera, who is this longtime SAG AFTRA official who was the face of this committee, ostensibly there to look after these kids, this is him on a phone call that he does not seem to know is being recorded for this documentary, which we're getting, like, the candid spin that he would give a kid that he, he knew Joey C. And already you're like, oh, he's just lying.

[Ann Henry]

Well, yeah, and he's. And he's spinning. The guy's telling him this traumatized me. Clearly, he's saying, I. I've been traumatized. And his answer is, I don't know.

[Pablo Torre]

How bad it is, and it just proceeds from there.

[Michael Hera (phone call)]

Well, I don't think it's right for anybody to take advantage of anybody. And I think that it's. That whole. That whole thing is. Is rotten. But he tried to do to me. And I, quite frankly, I didn't. I didn't like. I didn't like what, you know, when you tried to have me sleep in your bed and touch me and everything, I hated that, too.

[Joey C.]

And that was something unwanted. I shouldn't have done it. And there's no way you can undo that, but it certainly is something I shouldn't have done.

[Pablo Torre]

That is just one of the most astonishing things I've heard on tape. Just that candid confession that. Notably, by the way, when Amy Berg gets Michael Hera across from her in the chair with that SAG AFTRA representative monitoring the interview, he then proceeds to say something different.

[Michael Hera]

I don't know what Joey is remembering, but I don't remember anything that would have caused him to feel that way. All I can say is that as a result of the situation he was in, not only with me, but with others, that that was how he perceived something. It certainly wasn't anything I intended. And that was going to be My.

[Ann Henry]

Response to it, SAG would have known, probably within minutes of that interview, they would have known that he had admitted to whatever happened in that interview. We wondered if they were going to do anything about that. It was silent. We waited. We waited. It took months and months and months. And the next thing we heard was that SAG was going to sue the production.

[Pablo Torre]

And that's where David White enters the story.

[Ann Henry]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to recap this because it is a remarkable thing, given that now, hopefully, people listening to this story understand what the letter that the council, the outside counsel hired by SAG aftra, which was run by its executive director, David White, what that letter said to the makers of the film, Amy Burke and her production company. Because Deadline first reported this in June of 2015, I'll just quote the Deadline piece by David Robb. Quote, it may be the first time a Hollywood union has ever threatened to take legal action against a filmmaker over the content of a film. End quote. And this letter, I mean, is also astounding to go back and look at it. And I've now reviewed a copy of the letter sent by SAG AFTRA, their outside counsel. It is dated December 3, 2014. The bottom reads, quote, this email constitutes a confidential legal communication and may not be published in any manner, end quote. Well, Deadline obtained a copy. I have as well. And the letter cc's their client, David White, among other SAG AFTRA officials. What was your reaction when you heard about this letter?

[Ann Henry]

My first reaction was, wait a minute. The union is censoring the film? I don't understand. Because a union is. That's exactly what they don't do. The screen actors. Guilt is about creativity, about free speech. It's exactly what they do not do that is completely antithetical to their mission. That makes no sense. Then when you go, oh, they're censoring a film about the abuse of actors. What? That's even. Number two. Strike two. That makes no sense whatsoever. That doesn't make any sense. And then when I saw the letter, I realized it wasn't from SAG itself. It was from an outside attorney, which seemed weird, too, because SAG has an entire floor of attorneys. Why would sag, who deals with copyright law every day, why would they go outside to an outside attorney? That seemed odd to. So when I finally saw it, I went, oh, litigation attorney. Oh, this is. They're gonna sue. This is a litigation. This isn't a nice request to please take our logo off something. This is. They're gonna sue.

[Pablo Torre]

The letter, what it demands is a Number of things. I just wanna walk through this as clearly as I can with you because the first thing, they wanted Amy Berg to remove the references and the chyrons on screen that indicate that Michael Hera had any connection to the young performers community, which, again, he co founded and led for years and was a member of at the time of the interview.

[Ann Henry]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the quote from. From the outside counsel, please be advised that Mr. Harrah is not now parentheses, and was not at the time this documentary was screened, end parentheses. A member of or in any other way affiliated with the, quote, SAG AFTRA Young Performers Committee, end quote. Whatever allegations may have been leveled against Mr. Hara have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with SAG AFTRA or any of its committees, end quote. So, for instance, in other words, that bite we heard before in which Michael Harris says on tape, I'm one of.

[Michael Hera]

The founding members of the then Screen Actors Guild Young Performers Committee. Now, SAG AFTRA and I have been the chair of the committee in the past. Now I'm just a foot soldier.

[Pablo Torre]

The union, David White's union, wanted that removed from the film. The real goal that they're setting out to achieve becomes revealed in point number two, because the letter then proceeds to tell Amy Berg to delete all references in the film to the SAG AFTRA Young Performers Committee of any kind. Quote, demand is hereby made that no references to sag, to SAG aftra or to any SAG AFTRA committees be included in any portions of this documentary. End quote.

[Ann Henry]

And it's like, hey, hey, hey. It's a film about child actors. Hate to tell you what the.

[Mike Florio]

What are you talking about?

[Pablo Torre]

It's like, how. But how can you erase. How can you erase the entire reason why Michael Hera was a person of influence from the story of Michael Harrah's confessed sexual assault? They then proceed to demand that Amy Berg cut a scene showing the front of the union's building and the large SAG AFTRA 1 union logo that was on it. They wanted that part cut. And then they demanded that Amy Berg cut a large portion of her interview with you as the co founder of Biz Parents Again, the organization that has done more than any other one that I'm aware of to raise awareness.

[Ann Henry]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And by the way, the part seems to be the. That. That story that you told me in which the Young Performers Committee is gathering to discuss what to do with publicists slash photographer slash pedophile Bob Villart, like, that was the part where they were like, we can't have that in there.

[Ann Henry]

It's frustrating because it's so indicative of their misunderstanding of the entire problem. And it frustrates me because we're 10 years later and they still aren't getting it, that the whole problem is they don't get predator behavior. And that's why we still have a problem at that point. When that inflection point happens, you have to decide how you're going to respond. And at the point that you respond, that's your choice. That point. SAG had a choice that day. They could have said, wow, you know what? We're faced with a situation that Michael Hera, one of our volunteers, screwed up. And you know what? We're kicking him out this minute, five minutes after that interview, and we're issuing a press release and we're saying how horrible this is and we're organizing 5 billion things to make it right. That's what we're doing. That's leadership. That's what they could have done. And here we are ten years later, and David White is still, still denying it. 10 years later.

[Pablo Torre]

I was thinking about, like, what would an executive director of the SAG Aftra organization, what could he have done? What should he have done? Even if his concern was simply, man, you know, I don't want a viewer of this documentary to think that SAG Aftra intentionally propped up a guy they knew was a pedophile. We should clarify that. We're as shocked and as horrified as anybody to learn this. But instead, what happens is that letter is sent threatening legal action, and then there's a cover up of the COVID up. Right, right. So they attempt to cover up the fact that SAG Aftra is certainly a character in this story in a meaningful way. Then they try to spin, I mean, David White. Later that month, June 2015, he sends an email to the board of directors of SAG Aftra claiming that he never threatened to sue the filmmakers.

[Ann Henry]

Right. Because at this point, the circumstances around it, at that point in time, now they realize this film is screening in la, it's got press. There's news articles every day about this film. Every major news article is out there. It's on the news every night. There's talk, and it isn't playing well that SAG is trying to censor this film.

[Pablo Torre]

And then in the email to the board of directors, David White writes, quote, as you may already know, an inaccurate story about SAG Aftra posted online at Deadline today, end quote. And he references also a statement that the guild had given Deadline and I'll quote that as well. We have not yet threatened to sue this producer, nor did we attempt to suppress any factual or accurate information in its production, end quote. Meanwhile, I should point out that Deadline reported something about the lawyer. The lawyer, the outside counsel that SAG AFTRA hired, would give Deadline the publication the following statement. Quote, our firm has been authorized to pursue all appropriate legal remedies, end quote. And there might be an a, A hilarious semantic difference between a lawyer telling you that we are authorized to pursue all appropriate legal remedies and a lawyer explicitly saying, I'm about to sue you. But if anybody can detect that distinction and tell me the difference, I am all ears.

[Ann Henry]

Especially when that same lawyer identifies themselves in the very first sentence, as we are litigation attorneys for SAG aftra. Okay?

[Pablo Torre]

But the point being here that I came to you because the nflpa, which has now elected David White, the aforementioned executive director of SAG aftra, as their interim executive director, and the NFLPA told the Washington Post that the, quote, core issue was focused on the unauthorized use of SAG Aftra's name and brand in the film, end quote. Which is to say, this is a real logo problem.

[Ann Henry]

I'm not a football girl, you know. However, I would have to say that I think anyone who knows the facts of what happened 10 years ago would have to say there is no way that anyone who was aware in Hollywood would say this was a logo issue. It wasn't about just their logo, and it was all about how a leader reacts to a crisis situation.

[Pablo Torre]

And so, on account of everything you just heard, I had to fact check one more thing with both Amy Berg, the director of An Open Secret, and Anne Henry, the co founder of the Biz Parents foundation, our two key characters in this sordid story. And this thing is, to me, the most obvious thing in this entire episode, maybe this entire saga, because, again, I had just read an article in the Washington Post last week that said this.

[Mike Florio]

Quote, the NFLPA has reviewed this issue closely and feels confident that it has been fully briefed on the facts and context, end quote.

[Pablo Torre]

And so my last question for Amy Berg and Ann Henry then was simple. Did anyone ever contact you from the NFL, Pennsylvania, or a search firm working for the NFLPA about David White?

[Amy Berg]

No, they never did.

[Pablo Torre]

Has anyone from the nflpa, anybody from a search firm hired by the nflpa, anybody from the world of sports? Have they reached out to you?

[Ann Henry]

No one. No one has contacted me about this at all. Nothing.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I'm just left here, I guess, to wonder about something that I find myself Asking a lot in this apparently endless investigation, was this malice or incompetence? And is that just another attempted distinction at this point, without much of a difference?

[Ann Henry]

I get it's hard content. I do. I get. I don't want to see it. I totally get it. I mean, but it is, it is a good movie. I'm grateful for the people who invested money to make a movie like this. That movie has saved a lot of lives and I appreciate that. I mean, there are kids today who did not put themselves in bad situations, parents who learned from that, and I think many more would have. If SAG would have made a different decision, if David White would have made a different decision 10 years ago than he made on that day, I'm sure that no one thought it was going to roll around 10 years later either.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I'm not sure I foresaw me talking to you 10 years later.

[Ann Henry]

Yeah, yeah. Talking about the NFL was not on my bingo card this week either, let me tell you, Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

And so just before I finally let you go here, I do just need to acknowledge that the NFL, the biggest cultural force in America, has gone from being absolutely terrified of the collusion ruling, the 61 page PDF that I released in episode one, to now licking their chops at the management friendly empty suits that we've met in episode four. Because this NFLPA regime, out of malice or incompetence, seems designed to give the league what the league wants ultimately, which would be an 18th regular season NFL game and an even bigger share of the financial piece. Although the NFLPA does not seem eager to discuss any of this with noted SAG AFTRA member Mike Florio.

[Mike Florio]

I asked the union for an interview of David White. I'll do it by phone, I'll do it by video, I'll do it in person. And they said, we'll put you on the list. And that was some five days ago. And I've yet to hear anything more.

[Pablo Torre]

And in their defense, these guys have said it all right. The union's executive committee, led by President Jalen Reeves Mabin, is not only trusting JC Treader's stupidly broken process, they are also doubling down on their designed results. Just listen again to executive committee member Austin Eckler, the Commander's star running back, who said this to the Athletic in July after Lloyd Howell had resigned, quote.

[Mike Florio]

I love what we did as far as our process. There were a few issues that wound up biting us that we couldn't have foreseen at the time. But I like where we're at end quote.

[Pablo Torre]

And so what I found out today after four episodes of vetting these leaders and hearing the truth about Michael Hera, the Open Secret David White did not want you to know is the answer to that question that I posed a bit earlier. Is this malice or incompetence? And my answer looks a lot like the NFLPA's approach to the only two finalists in the most search process in Sports Union history. Why not both? This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time. SA.