PTFO Sneak Preview: Share & Tell with Dan, Pablo, and Mina Kimes

Summary

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Pablo Torre Finds Out

"PTFO Sneak Preview: Share & Tell with Dan, Pablo, and Mina Kimes"

August 16, 2023

Main Theme & Purpose

This sneak-preview episode introduces the collaborative, free-flowing "Share & Tell" format for Pablo Torre’s new show, featuring genuine, loosely structured conversations with close friends and notable figures from sports and media. Joined by Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard, Pablo launches into an experimental hour of deep dives, playful banter, and irreverent reflection—tackling trending stories (James Harden’s NBA drama), existential industry questions (AI’s looming impact on media), and the enduring debates surrounding polarizing athletes (Tua Tagovailoa). All told with the group’s signature wit and inside-joke camaraderie.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Show Format & Nostalgic Vibes

00:00–02:48

• The episode opens with a meta commentary on the hosts’ chemistry and their intention: a return to the fun, unconstrained conversations reminiscent of "Highly Questionable".
• Notable Quote:
  Dan Le Batard (00:05):
  "It's happening right now. The thing that you, me and Pablo talked about doing while we were taping. Highly Questionable... just doing a show where we're screwing around. It's happening. Look at it. You're in the middle of it."
• Pablo clarifies this is a special weekly format—long-form, friend-centric storytelling, about both sports and wider fascinations.

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2. James Harden, Daryl Morey, and NBA-Chinese Relations

04:29–13:48

Harden’s Comments in China: PR, Geopolitics, and Exile

• Pablo leads off: Analyzes the viral James Harden clip publicly calling Daryl Morey "a liar" while in China (04:29).
• He frames the moment as more than player-management friction: Harden, once beloved in China, leverages the context for maximum impact, making him in Pablo’s words, “about as good as you can be at sports while also being a stateless athlete.”
  Pablo Torre (06:24):
  “James Harden does not have a fan base, really, in the United States of America anymore... his real fan base is the fan base you heard hollering and whooping at the mention of Daryl Morey, enemy of the state, being a liar.”
• Mina and Dan challenge Pablo’s thesis, viewing Harden less as Master Strategist and more as an athlete acting out after failed self-bets—helped by the most sympathetic crowd possible, but not playing 4D chess. Mina Kimes (07:32):
  “The mainstream read is just like [Harden] happened to be in China... he spouted off. But you... got James Harden playing 4D chess.” Dan Le Batard (09:07):
  “I am with Mina... I view [Harden] as largely a bearded tool, not a geopolitical chess master...”
• Mina brings in a pop culture reference, comparing Harden’s predicament to the ending of "Tár" (12:01), highlighting themes of exile and humiliation.
• Pablo reframes Harden and Morey as kindred spirits for exploiting inefficiencies—only now, Harden’s play for leverage in China poetically backfires against Morey.

Embiid Fallout/Musical Interlude (14:12–15:40)

• Dan pivots to the possible fallout for Joel Embiid, sharing a clip of Daryl Morey singing lyrics from his own basketball-themed musical—a comedic detour highlighting the absurdity of NBA drama.
• Mina: “We’re spending so much mental energy analyzing the strategic moves of these two brilliant masterminds when... one wore a fat suit to get out of [a team]...”

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3. AI and the Fate of Sports Media & Content Creators

16:26–28:07

Existential Fears about Generative AI

• Mina’s topic: The threat artificial intelligence poses to writing, sports media, and “take” culture.
• She describes discussions with a coder friend and a legal expert, and how generative AI might soon mature from “crappy quizzes” to superhuman-level content.
  Mina Kimes (19:59):
  “The state of play at the moment is crappy... But [my friend’s] argument was: ‘No, no, no, no. This is like step one of a hundred. When it gets to a hundred, it will be better than us.’”
• Dan expresses genuine anxiety: Dan Le Batard (18:03):
  “I think we are easily replaceable, more easily replaceable than Hollywood screenwriters... I could absolutely create a bot within five years that can destroy Skip Bayless on television more than Nick Wright can.”
• Pablo wonders if AI is deliberately “sandbagging,” showing mediocrity to lull humans into complacency.
• They debate whether viewers would accept synthetic argument-makers if AI can simulate minor human flaws to appear relatable.

Human Uniqueness or Vulnerability?

• Mina admits to using machine learning data in her NFL analysis, raising the question: If robots can deliver the punchlines too, what’s left for human commentators? Pablo Torre (25:38):
  “Mina just outed herself as a traitor to the human race... She’s been training our new robot overlords...”
• The group riffs on the future of their children’s job prospects, “AI-proofing” careers, and the nihilistic punchline: “Don’t worry. We’re already all dead.” (28:07)

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4. Tua Tagovailoa: The Most Polarizing Athlete in Sports?

28:19–43:39

The Martial Arts Angle and “Is Tua Actually Good?”

• Dan introduces a story about Tua’s jiu-jitsu training to fall more safely on the field, then expands into the national debate: Is Tua a genuinely elite quarterback, or a product of favorable circumstances? Dan Le Batard (29:14):
  “In my history covering sports... I’ve never seen a player this polarizing around ‘is he good or is he not good?’... Even though his numbers... were absolutely great.”
• Mina: QB debate is inherently “toxic” because it’s the most contextual position in sports—stats won’t capture the full story. Mina Kimes (31:39):
  “The discussion of who is truly great... is always gonna be incredibly fraught because it’s the most contextual position in professional sports... it’s really hard for everybody to agree and that’s why it’s so toxic.”
• Pablo connects “teaching athletes how to fall” to Philadelphia’s Joel Embiid, arguing the doubted star must take radical control over their own narrative, but this often leads to risky self-sacrifice.
• Dan and Mina discuss similar toxically divided quarterback-fan relationships (Trubisky, Garoppolo, Dak Prescott), but Mina insists Tua’s skills are real, just complicated by context.

The Human Need for a Hero

• The group agrees: Fans crave a quarterback-as-savior narrative, even when a team’s success is more system- or coach-driven.
  Mina Kimes (38:46):
  “Fans want quarterbacks... they want their quarterback to be good and they believe, but they also want him to be the driver.”
• Pablo makes an analogy to scientists using puppet condors to feed condor chicks—fans will accept even an artificial “face” as long as it offers hope.
• Mina: “It’s like how John Harbaugh... for the cameras, he’s like, ‘Hey Lamar, you want to go for it?’... Same mechanism.”

Avian Mating Rituals & Show Climax

• Dan tells a bizarre, comedic animal anecdote: Zoo expert Ron McGill once donned a bird suit and mimed a mating ritual (with “mechanics” jokes) to collect a bird’s semen, paralleling the artificiality theme (41:43). Ron McGill (audio, 41:54):
  “I just cannot grasp the mechanics.”
• The episode “climaxes” with this, leading into rapid-fire “what did you learn?” takeaways.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Mina Kimes (01:53):
  “I'm really excited to talk about a wide variety of esoteric things.”
• Pablo Torre (04:05):
  “This is the privilege of being Asian American, Ivy League graduate, bookending University of Miami oaf. This is the intimidation that we project deep into Dan's psyche.”
• Pablo Torre (06:24):
  “James Harden... is a stateless athlete. James Harden does not have a fan base, really, in the United States of America anymore. His real fan base... is in China.”
• Dan Le Batard (09:07):
  “I am with Mina... I view [Harden] as largely a bearded tool, not a geopolitical chess master...”
• Mina Kimes (19:59):
  “We all point at it and we laugh and we're like, the robots can't do what we do, right?”
• Pablo Torre (25:38):
  “Mina just outed herself as a traitor to the human race.”
• Mina Kimes (31:39):
  “The discussion of who is truly great and who is not is always going to be incredibly fraught because it's the most contextual position in professional sports...”
• Pablo Torre (39:39):
  “That’s what it feels like with AI. That’s what it feels like with a quarterback who isn’t responsible, but the coach knows... he needs to be the quarterback, the face.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |----------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:01–02:48 | Opening—Format/Nostalgia, Boat Analogies | | 04:29–13:48 | James Harden, NBA-China, and the “stateless athlete” | | 14:12–15:40 | 76ers, Daryl Morey’s song, and basketball musical interlude | | 16:26–28:07 | AI and Content Creators—Existential Industry Fears | | 28:19–43:39 | Tua Tagovailoa and Toxic QB Debates | | 41:43–44:04 | Ron McGill’s bird story & episode wrap-up |

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

• Rapid-fire “what did you learn?” closing (42:38–43:41)
  • Dan: "Mina thinks Jimmy Garoppolo is better than Tua."
  • Pablo: "My chief takeaway is that Mitch Trubisky is a lot like Tua."
  • Mina: "Your ability to turn everything into a Sixers topic is truly incredible... I'm not even sure an AI could replicate it."

Overall Tone: Irreverent, warm, deeply knowledgeable, with plenty of self-deprecating humor and meta-commentary—setting a playful but intellectual template for the "Share & Tell" installment of PTFO.

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Transcript

[Mina Kimes]

I was muted. Hello?

[Dan Le Batard]

Hello? Mina, look, it's happening right now, Mina. Do you feel it? Do you feel it swelling in your soul? It's happening right now. The thing that you, me and Pablo talked about doing while we were taping. Highly questionable Years from now we can be together. Just doing a show where we're screwing around. It's happening. Look at it. You're in the middle of it.

[Mina Kimes]

Is this like the end of Shawshank when they're on the beach? Is that what's going on in your mind right now?

[Dan Le Batard]

That's what's happening right now. It's the sequel to Shawshank. I have come out through the sewage and the. And I am there to greet me at the other end is you and Pablo on a boat. Look at you, just fixing things, shining the boat and preparing for another voyage. I am so excited about this, Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

It does feel like joining Meadowlark has been like jumping into the embrace of a giant sewer monster.

[Mina Kimes]

I've got one foot on the bone. I gotta alter this metaphor a little bit.

[Pablo Torre]

I am legitimately, palpably, goosebumpy excited that we're even trying to do this. And I want to be clear that like, what I'm going to be doing on this show, on my show, Pablo Torre finds out, is not going to always be like this. But this is a very special episode that I want to try and do with Dan, like once a week where we get to sit down with our friends and have conversations that are only kind of vaguely structured, but are longer form that get to us hanging out with people that we really like, people of interest about stories of interest that we are all individuals like, obsessed with in a given week, whether it's sports, whether it's non sports, whether it's inevitably gazing into our navels, our nostalgic, emotional navels about how we don't do this enough. So yes, Mina, Dan and me are on what feels like a teetering dinghy towards high minded content.

[Dan Le Batard]

Now. Come on, it's a cigarette boat. Let's go, let's go. We got some star power around here. Enough, enough with the boat analogies and let's. We've got something substantive. I. I just want to tell the audience though, you, me and Pablo, when we were doing, I love doing highly questionable with you guys, and we talked years ago that it would be very easy for us to do a fun, easy show where we're just enjoying ourselves, talking about things outside of the parameters of, you know, bears falling on trampolines and guy getting hit in the junk by a sledgehammer that we could actually have some fun while doing this. So thank you for. Thank you for partaking in our nonsense.

[Mina Kimes]

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I will not be engaging in any navel gazing. Mainly because my navel is about 3ft in front of me and I try not to look at it these days, but otherwise I am. I'm really excited to talk about a wide variety of esoteric things.

[Pablo Torre]

I just want to be very clear. Your navel protruding three feet out in front of you has never stopped Dan before. So we should be.

[Dan Le Batard]

Ouch. Ouch. Was esoteric. Said correctly there. I've always said, I don't think so. Esoteric. No.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mina Kimes]

You know what? I was. I was. Is it esoteric? What is it when it's the erotica. No.

[Dan Le Batard]

What is that? That was unnecessary. What are you doing? What are you doing?

[Mina Kimes]

He's doing the public thing. He's seeing an HR built barricade and barreling through it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Many years ago on pti, I called it panache instead of panache because.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, I remember that. Yeah, I think I told you. I do. I mispronounce words a lot. And as an excuse once I was like, well, I was raised by an American, which is total bull.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, come on. You threw sun min kimes under the bus. Cause you can't pronounce esoteric.

[Mina Kimes]

You know what? Not all of us went to Regis, Pablo. Some of us grew up with the hoi polloi and the public school minds of America. Pablo, you're a rich man north of Richmond or whatever the.

[Dan Le Batard]

I give her so much benefit of the doubt that I simply assume that I've been pronoun it wrong my entire life and that she pronounced it correctly.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the privilege. The privilege of being Asian American, Ivy League graduate, bookending University of Miami oaf. This is the intimidation that we project deep into Dan's psyche.

[Mina Kimes]

We should just say a few words wrong and see if he catches it like little Easter eggs for himself. Sorry. The show. The show. Let's do the show.

[Pablo Torre]

The. All right, so I want to do this a little show and tell style, right? So that means that I have asked both of you to bring in a topic that you love that you want to set up. I have done the same, and I'm going to go first because it's my goddamn show. So I like to imagine this James Harden story through the eyes of one particular person. I want to figure out what it was like for Adam Silver to get not the video that we saw of James Harden in China. The like very quick clip of him talking about how Daryl Morey's a liar. Let me repeat that. Daryl Morey's a liar. I want to imagine Adam Silver getting the fuller version that I had to go and find manually. That has like two retweets and 30 likes. That has a little more of the context clearer. What do you think about the current.

[Dan Le Batard]

Team climbing to entry top and trying to bring you back to the team? Well, Daryl Morey is a liar, and I will never be the farce of an organization. He's more than you.

[Ron McGill]

Say that again.

[Dan Le Batard]

Daryl Morey was a liar, and I will never get more of an organization that he's a part of. Legally, it's for her.

[Mina Kimes]

It's the. Let me say it again that sings.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the whoops. It's the applause. It's the fact that a guy in China clearly asked this with all of the information that he was seeking already, obviously, like, explosive. Like, this is a story to be about China as well as it is about James Harden. But not just in the standard, like, let's talk about human rights and free Hong Kong and Daryl Morey, obviously. That is to me clear subtext for why this was so effective. Like James Harden stitching a geopolitical fat suit and stepping into it to get traded away from Philly because he can't work for that guy who said that thing that this country cannot abide by. The reason I think it's a China story also, and that applause that question are so important, is because it occurred to me that James Harden is about as good as you can be at sports while also being a stateless athlete. James Harden does not have a fan base, really, in the United States of America anymore. His fan base. The real fan base he has is the fan base you heard hollering and whooping at the mention of Daryl Morey, enemy of the state, being a liar. And I just think it's fascinating when you have a commissioner of the NBA who is managing all of these spinning plates. How do I deal with China human rights? How do I deal with the fact that young people aren't really rooting for teams or watching games anymore? And into this controversy walks a guy who is as deeply unpopular in America, has no real base.

[Mina Kimes]

I just want to say two things. One, this is not. We're not putting out the video. Every time Pablo said, this is a China story, Dan's ears perked up like my dog when a piece of food drops 200 yards away. Kind of Remarkable to witness. But the second thing I want to say, and I guess I want to make sure I just understand you, you seem to be imputing a lot of intention here to Harden, because that is. I don't think that's the mainstream read on this. The mainstream read is just like he happened to be in China. He's embarrassed because he's bet on himself multiple times. It hasn't worked out. So he spouted off. But you are. You got, you know, James Harden playing 4D chess.

[Pablo Torre]

I have him inadvertently playing 4D chess. I don't think he walked in. I don't think the guy who asked the question, Dan, was a plant. I don't think it was James Harden planting one of his fans to ask him the question he's been dying to answer. But I have to imagine that James Harden repeating himself in that context. And by the way, after riding the highs of being James Harden in China, like, I don't think it's unconnected. I think it's actually entirely about what it's like to be a guy whose entire fan base, millions upon millions of people, Dan, are in China. They've been treating you like you're the Beatles. You're having roses thrown at you wherever you get off a bus. And then you walk into this setting, and you get asked a question about a guy who does not believe that he is somebody who wants to invest his franchise in you anymore, as he used to. Uniquely. I think that hit James Harden's ego in a pretty special way.

[Dan Le Batard]

I am with Mina on this, being incredulous and skeptical that you are making James Harden, who I view as largely a bearded tool, a geopolitical chess master who is making the people of China go against Daryl Morey because he had that one sentence of tweet when he is addicted to strip clubs, not politics, and lasted all of six months with the Nets or however long it was. Mina. I just like to think of wherever it is that the cultural differences are. The idea of Yao Ming coming to this country and in front of a bunch of American campers saying the most inflammatory thing he's ever said, put in quotes, and saying again to people who might not understand the language he was speaking. Let me say it again in the same language so that you can not understand it again.

[Mina Kimes]

Yeah. When you flip it, it's pretty funny. I suspect in the bizarro version that you're positing, the American campers would have no idea what Yaomi was talking about. And where I think Pablo does have a point is that was the most sympathetic audience James Harden will find in any place, anywhere. But I don't think that matters. I don't think it. Maybe it matters insofar as he clearly feels backed into a corner, which is why I think he did it, frankly. Not due to, you know, he's been reading the Art of War or something, but because he's embarrassed, he's upset. I mean, this is. We always talk about how athletes, we applaud them for betting on themselves, right? Oh, man. He played one year on his. Left on his contract. He didn't take the deal. He was awesome. James Harden has bet on himself now, like four times and come up short, starting with the Nets contracts, then thinking the Rockets would want him, then thinking the Clippers would pay up for him. The dude has been, I don't want to say humiliated over and over, but it's always come up against him. And this to me, Dan. And maybe again, being in front of a sympathetic audience is relevant. Pablo. But it really felt like a guy who has run out of options and was simply lashing Pablo.

[Dan Le Batard]

Rare is the time that a guy this great at something, MVP caliber and really sort of a crossroads intersectional player, where as soon as the league changed. Changed in the evolution, d' Antoni made him somebody much more valuable than he was before. That rarely has that person been this kind of laughing stock that, as you say, has no real fan base. No. No real allegiance to anything. Is just a beard floating through the universe being excellent and us laughing somehow that he's. That he's excellent, but also that he doesn't seem to care all that much.

[Pablo Torre]

I think this is deeply poetic. Like, that's the thing. Why is Mina laughing? Why is she already chuckled?

[Mina Kimes]

Did you see the movie Tar?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, I haven't seen that yet. Have you seen it? No, I have not seen it.

[Mina Kimes]

Okay. Oh, God. What I'm about to bring up, Pablo might know is the ending of Tar, but I can't explain it because you haven't seen it. I don't want to spoil it. You should really see it. It's a really good movie. And I just want to say to those in the audience who watched tar, what we saw James Harden do really reminds me of the end of Tar. And if you watched it, you will love that. Okay. Sorry.

[Pablo Torre]

And spoiler alert. Earmuffs. I believe that the ending of Tar might take place in the Philippines, which is what I took away from that scene. And I was like, this is humiliating to me for reasons that Dan can't full totally understand.

[Mina Kimes]

Right now you'd really like it.

[Pablo Torre]

But the point he would. He wouldn't understand half vocabulary in it, but it'd be really good. The point of the poetry, though, and whether James Harden can be shamed is really essential here because it speaks to him actually being far more chess master than both of you guys are giving him credit for. Daryl Morey and James Harden are both people who exploit inefficiencies to points where you need to change the rules on them. James Harden, that's why they were such a cosmic pair, why they were a perfect duo, why they understood each other seemingly longer than any exec and player, star player ever had in the history of sports. Maybe they were just that simpatico because James Harden exploiting the inefficiencies of those rules that Dan was alluding to before uglying the game up to get benefits. Daryl Morey did the same thing by shooting all of these threes and only shooting layups. Right? Change the rules on me until. Until then, I'm not gonna stop looking for edges. And what James Harden is doing now is poetic because he was in China with the only fan base he has left, and what he was doing was finding the messiest possible way to get leverage. That is James Harden doing the James Harden thing to Daryl Morey for the first time in a way that Daryl Morey hated.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's just him beginning it. The next step is he's going to get Embiid ensnared in this somehow.

[Pablo Torre]

Like the I hate this part, but.

[Mina Kimes]

This is the part that this is the only part that matters from a basketball standpoint.

[Pablo Torre]

It's unfortunately true that when Joel Embiid takes out Philadelphia as his geotagged location or whatever it is on Twitter, which he did as we tape, and he took out processing from his bio, that actually unnerved me in a way that this James Harden thing only amused me.

[Dan Le Batard]

Can I play for you guys just as the world burns with the 76ers? I simply want to play for you guys because I don't know how Darryl Mori is going to handle the geopolitical chess master that is James Harden, but I just want to play for you guys that the guy at the center of this crisis was on our show and he is dealing with this crisis, but he might be uniquely equipped to deal with this crisis because he decided to sing some lyrics from the play that he wrote about. I think giants in basketball or small people having sex. Let's play that sound. The guy immersed when Flames as Embiid and Harden leave and just Leave him in in ashes do we want to.

[Ron McGill]

Have sex with giants or no? It's between four and six how to bring the parts into compliance I just cannot grasp the mechanics.

[Mina Kimes]

That's it.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm sorry. It's all he would do. I'm sorry I couldn't get more out of him. Mina, wait. A Monday morning quarterback this one I'm sorry that all I'm playing for again she's dissatisfied that I nearly would at.

[Ron McGill]

Least arrive do we want to have sex with giants or no? It's between four and six how to bring the parts into compliance I just cannot grasp the mechanics.

[Pablo Torre]

He'S saying he. Upon further reflection, he did sing that last verse like he had just been insulted by James Harden in China.

[Dan Le Batard]

It sounded like he was losing confidence at the end that he realized that his singing voice was terrible and that mechanics didn't rhyme with anything.

[Mina Kimes]

I just like that we're spending so much mental energy analyzing the strategic moves of these two brilliant masterminds when one.

[Ron McGill]

I just cannot crack.

[Mina Kimes]

The mechanic gotta wore a fat suit to get out of the whatever. And then one did that.

[Pablo Torre]

They're very complicated, the mechanics.

[Dan Le Batard]

We spent so much time analyzing their genius.

[Ron McGill]

I just cannot grasp the mechanics.

[Mina Kimes]

Sounds like a dying robot. Speaking of robots. Okay, my story isn't really. It's not a discrete story, although I'd sent a couple of articles. We sent a couple articles, including one by my friend Simon Rich, about the threat that AI poses to screenwriting amidst, of course, the writers strike and all of that. I had two conversations last week. One with a friend of mine who is a lawyer who is very deep in legal applications with AI and then the other one is a friend of mine who was kind of into AI before he was a coder, who was telling me about it way before everyone else. And I laughed a lot and I feel stupid.

[Pablo Torre]

You talk to an AI hipster. You talk to somebody who knew AI.

[Mina Kimes]

Before, who was building like, bots and things, like in 2012. And anyways, the conversation we had was about whether AI affected my industry. Industry is a little bit too broad probably when it comes to this, because the immediate effect is certainly more on sports writing, which none of us do anymore.

[Pablo Torre]

But I have a newsletter. How dare you.

[Mina Kimes]

I should keep up with that. But yeah, I guess I just. I don't know if you guys are thinking about it and reading about it as much as I am.

[Dan Le Batard]

I have a lot of fears. I got to 50 years old, I feel like without having a great many fears, and now they've all come rushing in like an avalanche. And this is one of them, right? When you read about how it is. Because I think a lot of people hearing this are like artificial intelligence. I have a vague idea of what that is, but they don't think about, like, all of this very cheap labor that has been gathering data about us so that all of our computers in the future can be much smarter than us based on information gathered by humans, so that everything can become more efficient as a value. And I ask you sincerely, do you even need the intelligence to replace us in what passes for content in this industry? Like, I think we are easily replaceable, more easily replaceable than Hollywood screenwriters that this, that creating arguments on television. I could absolutely create a bot within five years that can destroy Skip Bayless on television more than Nick Wright can.

[Mina Kimes]

I think that that's what I want to take a moment to kind of, for those who are maybe not as invested in this or reading as much about it, I think it's worth kind of laying out. Where are we at? So we're talking about generative AI. Not traditional AI is looking for patterns in data, which, by the way, I use all the time in my job. We can talk about that. A lot of the stats and tracking stuff I use with the NFL. We're talking about what Dan is describing, which is AI that is trained to look at content, sports writing, takes tweets, videos, whatever, crunch it all, and then spit out new things. That is generative AI. Now, the state of play at the moment is crappy. Like, you guys have seen the same examples that I have. Like when news websites like Gizmodo or, I don't know, buzzfeed, maybe it wasn't buzzfeed. AI quizzes now, AV Club, everything they put out sucks. And we all point at it and we laugh and we're like, the robots can't do what we do, right?

[Pablo Torre]

ChatGPT isn't getting a straight A consistently.

[Mina Kimes]

It seems to be getting worse. So what? Simon, who is very interested in AI and has been for a while, was arguing his article was. No, no, no, no, no, no, y'. All. Like, this is like step one of 100 step process. And when it gets to 100, it will be better than us.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, but Mina, what's even more disturbing is the implication that in fact the doses of AI we've been getting are deliberately making us confident. Like we are being played by the act. So, like, this is the thing about AI that's so scary. Dan, too, is that AI to me is not like Crypto. Crypto was full of this sort of like get rich quickness that you would see everywhere. And you see all of these club scammer Bros in Miami often basically hustling to get rich quick. And you're not seeing that with AI. AI seems to be playing the smart people at Google, DeepMind, IBM, wherever. They seem to be playing a longer game where they're not even showing us the best shit they got. Because I think there is a confidence in what they got.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mina. I think when you explain to people how layered this is, I do believe it's possible that the people running all of the artificial intelligence that is coming to consume us, that they sent chat GPT at us just to allow us to laugh at it, just, just to smoke screen like, look, it'll never get here when it's already here. Because when you read about the people who are immersed in the secrecy of this, you realize that this is a lot further advanced than we think it is. And if you're laughing at it, you're a fool.

[Mina Kimes]

I will say, my friend, who was the, who was the coder did say that, you know, what you're seeing now sucks. And you know, who knows how deliberate. I mean, I don't think it's deliberate, but. But it sucks. However, he was like, you should also note that when the Sam Altmans and Zuckerbergs or whatever of the world go before Congress and they're like, regulate us, this is more powerful than you could even imagine. They're boosting their own stock prices and they have a vested interest in making us afraid of this because it makes it seem more important and exciting. I want to go back to Dan saying that AI could replace Dick Wright.

[Dan Le Batard]

Not Nick Wright, not replace Nick Wright. I'm saying that a Skip Bayless looks for someone to argue opposite him. Mina. I am as debate.

[Pablo Torre]

AI is going to grow his hair out.

[Dan Le Batard]

It's going to be unstoppable, look sloppy, look a little bit like a degenerate, dress poorly, just certainly we got to.

[Mina Kimes]

Hit that side of it, which is the visual side we're talking about. Can AI write takes? Can AI construct arguments? I think we all believe that's possible. I don't know if it can put sauce on it, but we are human physical entities that people listen to our voices and our. Oh my God. Alice said esoteric again.

[Pablo Torre]

So Bemita. But I think what I'm worried about is AI being able to eventually replicate the mistake you just made. I'm worried about AI working in human flaws to be relatable to a human. Like, that's the part where I am unnerved. Like, AI can come up with a better argument, but can it simulate human error specifically to fool humans?

[Mina Kimes]

Let's set aside the visual side of it because I do think that that's, that's very far in the future. And you don't see, I mean, I guess the actors are worried about it, right, with the actor stuff. But that's not, you know, I don't think that's a pressing concern. Would you listen to a sports podcast if you knew the voice, the scripts, the analysis, the little eccentricities, the Ira.

[Pablo Torre]

Glass stumbles, the Mina Kimes esoterica, if.

[Mina Kimes]

You knew it was AI and not a human.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, but are you kidding me, though? All I'd have to do is be able to program one to pick well at fantasy football and I'd have a hit podcast. Like, I'd have a monster podcast if I could get gambling advice from a computer that was actually doing it better than the people analyzing it on television.

[Pablo Torre]

I do think there is something about sports analysis that we should all be afraid of. If you care about, to Dan's point, if you care about like actually getting the games right, we should all have been listening to Vegas and not like individual takes to begin with. And if we are able to now actually just outsource actual, real, rigorous, calculated answers from the wealth of human knowledge, then that's yes. I don't know how to beat that.

[Mina Kimes]

That's where the traditional AI machine learning and the generative stuff intersects. So I told you guys that I use data generated by machine learning. So like all the really smart stats in football, all the great player tracking stuff that Amazon and the NFL are doing, a lot of that is based on machine learning. I use it. Now. I am the human interpreter of that data. I go and I look and I say, oh great. They tracked everything. They tell me what an average quarterback would throw. They told me how much better this quarterback is. Whatever. Now I'm going to look at all this data and come up with something funny to say out of it. The question is, can someone replace that step? Or maybe they're not ready to deliver it, but maybe they can say, hey, Mina, I have observed everything you said on NFL Live for three years now. I have looked at all this machine learning generated data and I noticed these 10 aberrations. Perhaps you would like them to construct a take for use on tv.

[Pablo Torre]

That feels plausible, Dan. Mina just outed herself as a traitor to the human race. I don't know if you caught that.

[Mina Kimes]

But she's been training our new robot.

[Pablo Torre]

She's been training the computer. That's how this works, by the way. You get underlings to our robot, our robot overlords to do the work of. Make me sound more human, Pablo.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mina, at this very, very crowded take trough, has become a person who is known for giving information that others don't have. We are just learning now in our maiden voyage episode here that she is stealing it from the machines. Now, she has given the machines proper credit, but we are not totally sure as we talk to her whether she is not AI generated. And frankly, honestly, like, the only would explain some things. The only thing that convinces me she's not is how bad she's at the mechanics of radio and television, how they confound her. But that might be proof that she is AI because the machines haven't taught her how to properly put the on button on when her microphone is needed.

[Mina Kimes]

I was about to say, which who do you think actually is the most likely to be AI But I feel like that is such an insulting conversation that we can't have in public.

[Pablo Torre]

It really is.

[Mina Kimes]

That's got to be off.

[Pablo Torre]

It really is.

[Mina Kimes]

That is so.

[Pablo Torre]

I do like the idea, though, that we're all already in pods with like the matrix wire sticking out of the back of our skulls. And what we've been doing this entire time is living the dream, the illusion of human potential, by arguing about whether we're going to be replaced by the robots that already replaced us.

[Mina Kimes]

That's when the simulation blows up, right? Is when you realize you're in the simulation. What's the term for that?

[Pablo Torre]

I think the term is being super stoned. I do think, Dan, it does require a useful Benedict Arnold. And that would, in fact, yes, as Mina pointed out, be Mina and also future Minas, who betray us.

[Dan Le Batard]

Future Minas, otherwise known on the birth certificate of her soon to be baby by the name of 011 01100.

[Mina Kimes]

I have thought about that. Do I have to? Pablo, like, we have children. We have to AI proof their jobs, their lives.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

You don't have to worry about them. Climate change is coming for all of them. And the robots don't worry about any of that.

[Pablo Torre]

Don't worry. We're already all dead.

[Mina Kimes]

All right, Dan, bring us home with the truly sunny topic that you've got lined up.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, I read a story this week that made me laugh. A handful of people in the mixed martial arts community in Miami have told me last year they were analyzing the games better than I was because they were saying, hey, Tua, no one has taught him how to fall. Someone needs to teach him how to fall. These were martial arts people. And then he, you know, over the off season does jiu jitsu and trains in jiu jitsu so that he can protect his brain in a violent sport from falls that might harm his brain. But this gives me an avenue Mina, because I really did want to talk to you about what Tua is, because in my history covering sports in this market, I've never seen a player this polarizing around. Is he good or is he not good? The country is arguing about it. I believe it's at least in part because a whole lot of young people from this generation, social media generation, and also the generation raising my Miami on LeBron, Wade and Bosch and fighting everybody. I believe they finally got a national figure at quarterback. They finally got hope for what has been largely a regional franchise this entire century. They have a player they think is a national entity that will take them to championships. And I'm not sure people believe in how good he is because his coach is very good. His skill position players are very good. His numbers are exceptional, inarguably exceptional. And yet there is doubt about him beyond the health for reasons that I find confusing. And so everyone fights, even though his numbers when he was healthy mean. The last year, he was Josh Allen without the turnovers, he was Patrick Mahomes passer rating, whatever numbers you want to use to measure him, he was absolutely great. Health is the biggest concern with him, obviously. But I want to know what you think of him, and if you're willing to rush into fights with Tuanon by daring to question whether or not his excellent is because of him or it's because of all of the pieces around him that make him more excellent than he actually is.

[Mina Kimes]

How did you use a jiu jitsu story to lure me into this toxic.

[Pablo Torre]

Yet again, A bit of a jiu jitsu move, you might argue.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh, oh. I was ready to make a bunch of jokes about the martial arts expert saying that, of course martial arts helps you. Well, I think you put your finger on something that's not just true of Tua, but that is true just largely of the quarterback position, which is that the discussion of who is truly great and who is not is always going to be incredibly fraught because it's the most contextual position in professional sports, any sports, not the NFL. It is so hard to separate quarterback play from circumstances, coaching schemes, all of that. Actually, this kind of goes back to What I was saying about the machine learning, one thing that I like is that a lot of the stats being spat out are trying to isolate this because to your point about to a stat, Stan like Jimmy Garoppolo statistically is one of the greatest quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. And I'm not comparing them again. Don't yell at me. Dolphins fans kind of am.

[Pablo Torre]

But my point is feels like you are.

[Mina Kimes]

It's really like he really is by the way, like if you look up, you know, all time career leaders, like hundreds of years, you will see Jimmy G at the top of every list.

[Dan Le Batard]

I love that you have them playing football in the 1600s and there was some guy hundreds of years ago just.

[Mina Kimes]

Tearing up the field with slams in two boots. Carlson was, I don't know. But anyways, my point is, you know, stats matter, but with the quarterback position, it's not that they matter less, it's that they're harder to evaluate. And I think with a guy like Tua, or just any quarterback, when the circumstances are good, or when they're really bad, by the way, which was obviously the case with him earlier in a career, when context is so complicated, it's really hard to get at this sense of what's real. I think, or at least it's hard to arrive at a consensus of what is true. There are certain quarterbacks, we watch them and we're like, yeah, Patrick Mahomes, that's the best. Aaron Rod, whatever. I look at that, I know it's great, it's borne out in the stats. I don't care who's playing with him. I see it with my eyes. And I think with Tua and some of the other quarterbacks like him, it's complicated. It's really, really hard for everybody to agree and that's why it's so toxic. Because if it was easy, if everybody agreed he was good or bad or mediocre, I don't think it would inspire this kind of reaction. And it is unique to the position because the position's so freaking important. It's a position that's the hardest to evaluate, the most contextual and the most important. That is such a toxic brew from a take perspective.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it does feel like the accidental through line of the three topics we selected are human beings, flawed human beings asserting that they matter, that they can control their own destiny. And in each of these cases we're finding that there are complications that lead us to have great doubt about whether actually any of us are that good at what we think we're good at. And in Tua's case, it makes me laugh. Also, the other 76ers sort of parallel here is that the other time, the only other time I heard about an athlete, Dan, being taught how to fall is Joel Embiid. Joel Embiid falls all of the time. And Mina has made fun of me for bringing up that in fact, these are not flops. These are biomechanically optimized moves to protect a very large and fragile offensive.

[Mina Kimes]

Flops.

[Pablo Torre]

He has been taught to protect himself by, yes, doing the thing that may look to the naked eye like he is in fact just trying to draw a foul. And this just speaks to the nature of what you're trying to do. The fool's errand of self protection. Right. Like the whole thing about Tua learning to protect himself. I remember talking to Alex Smith about this on ESPN daily after the concussions. Like, Alex Smith went through a career in which he was the problem. It wasn't NFL rules. It wasn't the idea that, oh, someone is oppressing this quarterback into injury. He would lie. He would figure out how to game the concussion protocol so he could play. Like the idea of being job insecure because of all the reasons that. All the reasons Mina said people have doubts about you. Are you really that good? Those are all reasons to go and push the envelope even further, to prove that you're tougher and you're stronger and you're better. And the only enemy in that really is the fact that Tua wants to do it to himself. That's where I think it's a fool's errand.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mina. He is such an apologist for all things the process that not only can he turn James Harden into a geopolitical chess master, but now he has turned what can be argued is Joel Embiid's clumsiness into grace. That is self protection of the franchise and of his body. Have you seen, though, even what we're talking about at the quarterback position? It's the glowing nuclear epicenter for that city's hope in the most popular sport. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone like Tua what happens around him where it's not only toxic and you say negative syllable X or not even negative syllable, just mildly critical thing that makes him not the greatest quarterback in the universe. And what ends up happening to you is a rabid, passionate defense that I don't think that you have that gulf of difference on any other quarterback's measurement in the entire league. I can't believe that this one guy has more extremes around him in terms of disagreement between excellence and he's a product of the system. I don't. You tell me, is there anyone else like that in the league?

[Mina Kimes]

I've encountered a very similar dynamic in the past. Always with quarterbacks, always with teams that are good or playing well or contenders. Because nobody gives a if the team's bad. Right. And always where there's some disagreement over how much the quarterback is responsible for the team's success. I mean, dad, I am not. I want to be clear.

[Pablo Torre]

Are we going Dak Prescott here?

[Dan Le Batard]

Cousins?

[Mina Kimes]

I want to be clear. I am not comparing these two quarterbacks. But honestly, when I used to criticize Ms. Trubisky in Chicago, I would get similarly very angry. And I think Tua is much better than Ms. Trubisky. I want to be clear. Try to build protection.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, she's scared. The legal language, all the disclaimers. We should get her to talk really fast. We should get her to do like those car commercial disclaimers. Anything Mina says about Tua is not to be held against her in any sort of way. She's not compari him to any other quarterback. She's simply saying an opinion on Tua and you're going to find it unpopular.

[Pablo Torre]

We can put like the guitar acoustic music. They put underneath, like the warnings on like Vienna.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes. Like a happy ukulele.

[Mina Kimes]

I want to be clear. I am not comparing these two quarterbacks. And I think Tua is much better than Mr. Biscuit.

[Dan Le Batard]

Want to be clear about Tua is not to be held against her in any sort of way. She's not comparing him to any other quarterback. She's simply saying an opinion on Tua and you're going to find it unpopular.

[Mina Kimes]

Listen, the point I'm making is, you know, the fans really wanted to believe. Cause I think. And I also saw this with Jimmy, although I think Niners fans were much more split on him. But I don't think. And this kind of actually weirdly connects back to the AI discussion, Pablo. I don't think fans like the idea of a team not being quarterback driven, even though we just like the San Francisco 49ers. It does not matter. Right. Like, we have seen that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Mina Kimes]

And. And I think their fans right now are like, all right, we get it, whatever. Although actually they're not. No, they're starting to be like, well, you don't believe in Rob Purdy. And I'm like, oh, my God, we're going to do this again. How many times Are we going to do this like.

[Dan Le Batard]

But Mina, it is. I feel like it's a little different between Trubisky because you have a very small sample size of Tua being amazing like you have. It's not just this false hope. Trubisky didn't have games like that where everyone laughed at Trubisky laughing, You know, nationally, even if he have been one of the best quarterback situations, I thought.

[Mina Kimes]

He was good, Dan. I've lived through a full season of people arguing that he was quite. I remember it very vividly and I'm not. I do think Tua's played at a higher level. I think Tua has very, like unique traits in terms of his accuracy, anticipation that are responsible for his success and are not. He's not just a cog in a machine in the way that like a Shanahan quarterback, whatever. But my point is that I want to make is like, you know, I just think you're asking about why is it so toxic and why are fans so impassioned around this one quarterback? And I really think fans want quarterbacks. They want to. Obviously they want their quarterback to be good and they believe, but they also want him to be the driver. Like, they don't want you to look at this team and say, we've got the guy and he is why we are winning. And if you're like, well, there's a lot of reasons why you're winning, you know, they don't like.

[Pablo Torre]

Does remind me of AI. It also reminds me of how. Ever seen those. Like those videos of scientists feeding a baby condor. What they do is they wear a very sad and obviously fake puppet on their hand of a condor. Kind of bald, like fake feathers. And they feed food into the baby's mouths because the babies need a familiar face to give them this, even if it's a shitty facsimile. And that's what it feels like with AI. That's what it feels like with a quarterback who isn't responsible, but the coach knows that actually it's better if this guy is the face of our team because I can't be the face of the team. He needs to be the quarterback. We just need to be fed something in a form that we're familiar with.

[Mina Kimes]

It's like how John Harbaugh. So he's got nerds in his ear telling him when to go for unfort down. But for the cameras, he's like, hey, Lamar, you want to go for it? All right, dude.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Mina Kimes]

And it's like the fans are like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Quarterback wants to go for it. We're aggressive. There's a nerd in his ear telling him to go for it. No, but that same mechanism. Same mechanism, yes.

[Dan Le Batard]

Mina, I just wanted to say in completion of the thought on Trubisky, what I was trying to get to is that Chicago Bears fans, given that Jay Cutler is the best quarterback they've ever had, have no idea what a good quarterback looks like. So they would choose to believe in Trubisky, but I was derailed by the burn example of Pablo. Because I'm not making up what I'm about to say here. Ron McGill, our resident zoo expert, went many, many steps beyond that. There was a giant bird. I don't think it was a cassowary, but it was somewhere near the cassowary family. A cassowary can disembowel you and is dangerous. So it wouldn't be a Cassowary, but Ron McGill had to dress like a bird and do a mating dance in front of him and then bend over in front of the bird as the bird came and released into a receptacle that he had in his. In. In. In a. You know where it had to be. Where it had to be. Yes. That's something our animal expert did. And I just thought I'd share that story with you because it's one of the most magical stories I know.

[Mina Kimes]

He was like a blow up doll bird.

[Dan Le Batard]

He was dressed in a bird costume. He's got a ridiculous mustache. But he brought that bird to. To climax. Yes. By doing a dance in front of it and then bending over in front of it. That's correct.

[Mina Kimes]

Can furries be birds? Because birds have feathers, not fur.

[Ron McGill]

I just cannot grasp the mechanics.

[Pablo Torre]

So too have we reached our climax? I don't believe Ron McGill at all that that was the reason he did that. But I think we're done. I think we too like that bird. Are. Do we wanna. There's one. I think the final thing is we can try to do is we all go around and say one thing that we learned today.

[Dan Le Batard]

My chief takeaway from this entire delightful hour we spent together is that Mina thinks that Jimmy Garoppolo is better than tua.

[Mina Kimes]

You were gonna do that?

[Pablo Torre]

You know what, Dan? It's funny you mentioned that. Cause my chief takeaway is that Mitch Trubisky is a lot like Tua. That's what I found out today on Pablo Torre. Finds out? Mina, what did you find out?

[Dan Le Batard]

What did you learn? What did you learn?

[Mina Kimes]

I'm still thinking about Ron McGill. As a bird. Furry. But I do want to say it's been. You know, I haven't had a chance to work with Pablo now for a little bit and your ability to turn everything into a seizures topic is truly incredible. Like I. It's really unparalleled in our industry and honestly I'm not even sure an AI could replicate it.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank you. I've always said that my process is uniquely trustworthy.

[Dan Le Batard]

I thought Mina was simply going to say I learned how to say esoteric correctly.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not trying to remind people of that admittedly. By the way, my real takeaway is that I'm still still thinking about Rob McGill. That bird.

[Dan Le Batard]

No. Yes. Thank you Mina. Thank you. Thank you for the correction. That's correct.

[Pablo Torre]

My real takeaway is not that hard to understand. Ron McGill bottoming that bird.

[Ron McGill]

I just cannot press the mechanics.

[Mina Kimes]

Oh God, it's horrifying. Sam.