Shaq, Sinbad and Shazaam: Why a (Fake) Genie Movie Feels So Real

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Shaq, Sinbad and Shazaam: Why a (Fake) Genie Movie Feels So Real

Date: October 17, 2024
Host: Pablo Torre | Featured Guests: David Gardner, Melissa Garza, Wilma Bainbridge, Adam Lefkoe, Shaquille O'Neal

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the cultural mystery and psychological phenomenon behind the persistent false memory of a 1990s movie called "Shazaam" starring Sinbad as a genie—a movie that, in reality, never existed. Pablo Torre, with reporter David Gardner, investigates why so many people have vivid, specific memories of watching this "film," explores the origins and spread of the misconception, and uses the case to illustrate the larger cognitive effect popularly known as the Mandela Effect. The journey includes interviews, pop-culture quizzes, psychological research, and, ultimately, rare commentary from Shaquille O’Neal himself.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Two Genie Movies — or Are There?

• Kazaam: A real 1996 movie starring Shaquille O’Neal as a genie.
• Shazaam: The alleged 1990s movie starring Sinbad as a genie, which many misremember as real.
  • David Gardner shares his memory of Kazaam as a basketball-loving kid, noting its campy plot and Shaq-centric charm.
    “A happy deal. There's smoke screen... This is a low-budget movie. They spent all their money on Shaq.” (02:20; 02:29 – David Gardner)
  • Listeners are quizzed on Kazaam's Rotten Tomatoes score—only 5%. (03:39 – 03:56)

2. The Myth of "Shazaam" and Collective False Memory

• Gardner and Torre break down the tenacious, oddly detailed memories people share of “Shazaam,” despite no evidence it exists.

  • “There's no trailer online. There's no VHS copy in somebody's attic. There's no IMDb page. But there are a ton of people who vividly remember having seen Shazaam starring Sinbad in the 1990s.” (05:18 – David Gardner)

• Torres asks Gardner to help explain how and why this mass misremembering persists. (05:51)

  • The story’s online roots are traced to Reddit, with supposed VHS covers and family anecdotes, revealing the depth of the belief. (08:32 – 09:44)

3. Interviews with True Believers

• Melissa Garza, another “Shazaam” truther and former video store clerk, describes in encyclopedic detail the plot, scenes, and cast of the nonexistent film. (11:28 – 15:02)
  • “I remember watching it a few times, and I even remember watching it on HBO. In fact, in 2004, it was on HBO when I watched it.” (11:47 – Melissa Garza)
• Many others, online and off, echo her certainty, referencing specific actors and plot points.

4. Denials from Sinbad

• Sinbad has repeatedly, publicly, and humorously denied ever making the movie, parodying fan beliefs in an April Fool’s Day video as “Shazaam.” (16:17 – 16:45)

  • “And to answer the million dollar question, did I do Shazam? No.” (15:33 – Sinbad)

• Even as Sinbad plays along, believers remain steadfast. Garza:
  “I wish Sinbad would come out and be like, yeah, I did this movie. But I. He doesn't remember it, I guess. Or did they wipe Sinbad’s memory clean? I have no idea. It's weird.” (15:49 – Melissa Garza)

5. The Mandela Effect — Science Behind False Memory

• Gardner introduces a memory quiz (Pikachu, Monopoly Man, Where’s Waldo?) to Pablo (18:24 – 20:39), illustrating how common and powerful false memories are.

• Wilma Bainbridge, a psychologist from the University of Chicago, explains the Mandela Effect:

  • “The Mandela effect is when you have this really striking false memory that you're very confident about, but you're actually very wrong about...it's not just your own, but one that tons of people have.” (21:08 – Wilma Bainbridge)
  • Research findings:
    • False memories are widely shared.
    • People with higher confidence in memories are more likely to be wrong.
      (22:32 – 22:54)
    • It’s not just exposure to memes or the internet; even unprimed subjects experience it.
      (31:29 – 31:48)

• The false “Luke, I am your father” line from Star Wars is cited as another classic example, feeding the sense of widespread memory glitches. (25:24 – 25:51)

  • “No, I am your father.” (Star Wars actual line vs. common misquote)

6. Why Do People Believe So Hard?

• Some suggest simulation theory as an explanation (27:08 – 27:42)
• Pablo and Gardner discuss how common memory errors can fuel conspiracy thinking, “glitches in the matrix,” and a distrust of reality in general, drawing parallels to modern misinformation climates. (29:47 – 30:30)
  • “…the idea that there is a glitch in our brains way more often than we would like to admit. And there is something where an image, an idea, some sticky concept replaces the truth.” (29:47 – Pablo Torre)

7. Closing the Loop: The Real Shaq Speaks

• After multiple failed attempts, the team gets Shaquille O’Neal’s take via Adam Lefkoe, co-host of the “Big Podcast with Shaq.” (35:25–36:07)

  • On Kazaam: “And I get mixed reactions. I get from you weirdo adults who shouldn't have been watching the movie anyway. It was terrible. But I get from guys that are adults now that were kids say, oh, that was one of my favorite movies.” (35:44 – Shaquille O’Neal)
  • On the Shazaam myth: “They actually get a mix up all the time...I think they are confusing it with the cartoon that used to be called Shazam.” (36:16 – 36:50)

• Shaq clarifies he never heard of such a Sinbad movie personally, ties the association to an old “Shazam” cartoon.

  • In a meta twist, it’s revealed that in 1993 Shaq had a Rottweiler named Shazam. (39:30 – 39:45)
  • “It’s not a fake movie. Shazam was a freaking cartoon.” (39:45 – Shaquille O'Neal)

8. Broader Implications

• The episode concludes reflecting on the fragility and power of memory, the deep-seated conviction in shared untruths, and the fine line between collective nostalgia and mass delusion.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• David Gardner on fake VHS covers:
  “My favorite thing I think about this one is that the review, which is very believable, is just Family Fun exclamation point.” (09:29)
• Melissa Garza, on her certainty:
  “I even remember watching it on HBO. In fact, in 2004, it was on HBO when I watched it.” (11:47)
• Pablo Torre, after being Mandela’d on childhood icons:
  “The obvious takeaway here is that that I thought I knew from my childhood. I am 66.6 repeating percent wrong.” (20:40)
• Wilma Bainbridge on cross-cultural false memories:
  “They all say that the Monopoly man has a monocle, and they're confident about it...the Mandel effect is real.” (22:54)
• Shaquille O’Neal, with perfect Shaq-ness:
  “I'm Kazam. You're Shazam. We're brothers.” (38:26 via Adam Lefkoe retelling)
• David Gardner, summing up the paradox:
  “Shaq was in a movie called Kazam. Sinbad was never in a movie called Shazam. This all did and did not happen in the 1990s, a time during which Shaq had a Rottweiler named Shazam.” (40:16)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Kazaam plot reminiscence: 00:42 – 03:56
• Shazaam myth introduction: 04:04 – 06:21
• Reddit/Internet origins: 08:32 – 09:44
• Melissa Garza interview: 11:28 – 15:02
• Sinbad’s repeated denials: 15:27 – 16:45
• Mandela Effect & psychology research: 18:24 – 23:23
• Pikachu/Monopoly/Waldo quiz: 18:24 – 20:39
• Star Wars false memory: 25:11 – 25:51
• Simulation theory musings: 27:01 – 29:01
• Shaq interview via Adam Lefkoe: 35:25 – 39:48
• Shaq’s Rottweiler named Shazam: 39:30 – 39:45

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Tone, Language, and Flow

Pablo and his correspondents maintain a playful yet inquisitive tone, blending humor (“These are my people because you’ve brought us here a story about movies...”) with genuine fascination and skepticism. There’s a thread of nostalgia for 1990s pop culture, undercut by an awareness of how unreliable even collective memories can be. The exchanges with Shaq and Sinbad are particularly tongue-in-cheek, and the episode doesn't shy from critiquing its own methods—or poking fun at the host’s cognitive misfires.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode is a smart, funny, and at times disconcerting exploration of the boundary between truth and memory. Through the lens of the Shazaam movie myth, Pablo Torre and his guests question not just internet lore but the mechanics of how we all remember—and misremember—the pop culture that shapes us. The blend of psychology, pop nostalgia, and celebrity interviews, all rendered with Pablo’s trademark wit, makes for a compelling listen—and, perhaps, a little destabilizing for anyone who “remembers” Shazaam.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

It's not a fake movie.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network. So, Dave Gardner, thank you for being here.

[David Gardner]

Thank you. First time, long time.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to initiate you into a tribe of people who take stupid things very seriously. These are my people because you've brought us here a story about movies.

[David Gardner]

Yeah, it's about two movies specifically. One is one of my favorite movies from my childhood. It came out in 1996. That was the year that Space Jam came out. Everybody wanted to be like Mike. I wanted to be like Shaq. I was from Tampa, Florida. I was an Orlando Magic fan. The pinstripes, of course. I had the Shaq shoes from Walmart. I was a blistering four foot power forward for my Episcopalian elementary school basketball team.

[Pablo Torre]

Fearsome. I look at you right now and I'm like, this was a real intimidating force on the block.

[David Gardner]

I heard that this movie was coming out called Kazaam, starring Shaq in a deserted building. The voiceover is the first most important part. You know there's gonna be one. You just know.

[Pablo Torre]

In a world he served some of history's most notorious tyrants.

[David Gardner]

Always the great premise for a children's movie, somebody who's served tyrants.

[Pablo Torre]

What if dictators had a genie and together they're about to fall into something big?

[David Gardner]

Something big. There's smoke screen.

[Pablo Torre]

A child has fallen through several floors of a building.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Who dare to wake me.

[Pablo Torre]

And here's Shaq wearing a turban of some sort. I don't think you're ordering anybody. Has inherited a genie.

[David Gardner]

Cgi. Incredible.

[Pablo Torre]

He does have lightning coming out of his fingers.

[David Gardner]

He does. Yep. A happy deal.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait a minute. A happy deal.

[David Gardner]

So his first wish is that he wants for junk food to rain down from the sky.

[Pablo Torre]

And I guess they didn't have the rights to Happy Meal as a legal term.

[David Gardner]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

Perfect.

[David Gardner]

This is a low budget movie. They spent all their money on Shaq.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

No way I'm losing this race, buddy. I'm going to keep camp.

[David Gardner]

Flying bicycle. Of course, the child comes out of his drinking water in a glass for some reason. Use a tip.

[Melissa Garza]

Who's the pointy shoes?

[Pablo Torre]

This is. It's lighting up pleasure centers of my brain that really only got activated when I too was a young basketball fan. Wondering, are all movies going to be like this forever?

[David Gardner]

And in case you're wondering, do they wink to the fact that Shaq is A real life basketball player. He takes one of his enemies.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Wish not granted.

[David Gardner]

Now watch him become a basketball.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh.

[David Gardner]

And the two handed tomahawk for the finish.

[Pablo Torre]

Into a garbage chute.

[David Gardner]

What language is that? It's not clear. I don't think it was clear.

[Pablo Torre]

It was the language of the other.

[David Gardner]

David, I may be one of the few people in the world who genuinely enjoys this movie. Do you want to give a guess for the Rotten Tomatoes score?

[Pablo Torre]

I'm going to. I will go with 32.

[David Gardner]

32 would be high. But I appreciate the Shaq reference there. Yeah, 5% is the number.

[Pablo Torre]

You said that this is a show we're doing here about two movies.

[David Gardner]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

Your second movie. This is a high bar you've set is what?

[David Gardner]

So the second movie is a very similar sounding movie, both from a title perspective and from a plot perspective. It's called Shazam. It was also a 1990s family comedy.

[Pablo Torre]

This is not the DC superhero.

[David Gardner]

Correct. This is not 2019 Shazam.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, exactly.

[David Gardner]

This is 1990s vague for reasons that we'll get to. Shazam. And it also involves a child with an estranged relationship with his father who stumbles upon a magical genie. The two of them embark on some journey together. Life lessons are learned, relationships are healed.

[Pablo Torre]

And instead of Shaq in the eponymous role of genie, we have one of.

[David Gardner]

My other childhood heroes. The comedian, the actor, the legend. Sinbad is starring as the genie in this movie.

[Pablo Torre]

Jingle all the Way is actually a good movie.

[David Gardner]

Jingle all the Way is a Christmas classic in my family. I mean, it's Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad. Arnold Schwarzenegger was on a heater for kids movies back in the day.

[Pablo Torre]

They were running through malls trying to get Power Man.

[Adam Lefkoe]

It's Turboman.

[Pablo Torre]

My son wants one too. You know it's all a ploy, don't you?

[David Gardner]

Turbo Man. Yep. I'm sorry.

[Pablo Torre]

So I, I.

[David Gardner]

You clearly never got a Turboman as a child.

[Pablo Torre]

I admit that my memory here is a little. Is a little.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that because this movie, nobody's seen it. There's no trailer online. There's no VHS copy in somebody's attic. There's no IMDb page. But are a ton of people who vividly remember having seen Shazam starring sinbad in the 1990s. They can tell you where they were when they watched it. They can tell you what the VHS cover looked like. They can tell you who the actors were in the movie. They can describe the plot in detail. And yet they've never seen this movie.

[Pablo Torre]

Certainly this is the part that made me say, David Gardner, it is time for you to crawl inside of this fake lamp and help me help grant me the wish of figuring out what the is happening here.

[David Gardner]

Why do so many people claim to remember this movie that clearly does not exist? A movie that should not be confused with any other major motion picture?

[Pablo Torre]

Of course not. And also, does Shaquille o' Neal himself have any idea what is happening?

[David Gardner]

Let's find out.

[Pablo Torre]

It is safe to say that we live in an unprecedented era at this point of misinformation of government controlled hurricanes and armies of blue check bots and everybody secretly being a transgender AI clone of John F. Kennedy Jr. Or something. It's actually gotten to the point where you now see real, actual news on your timeline about how, say, the best post game show in sports history, Inside the NBA, is suddenly ending. And the default assumption is that that news must be fake. But it's true. Turner Sports lost the TV rights to the NBA after being outbid by NBC. And so this season of Inside, which begins with Turner's preseason games, tonight, marks the last time we'll see Chuck and Ernie and Kenny and Shaq at their legendary and enormous desk. The show is fundamentally inimitable, as evidenced by the many failed attempts to engineer knockoff versions. And all of this brings us back around to Shaq. Shaq, the star of Kazaam himself, who has never discussed this story in public, it seems, and who also remains the childhood hero of reporter David Gardner, who has written for Sports Illustrated and the New York Times and GQ and the Washington Post, and yet remains singularly obsessed with the phenomena of an extremely fake Shaquille o' Neal knockoff movie called Shazam.

[David Gardner]

Like so many wonderful and confusing things on the Internet, it traces its origin back to Reddit. Yeah, the online fascination started here. There's a user named Epic Journeyman on Reddit and about eight years ago he posted a very long post in which he described the details of this movie. And he also claimed that he worked at a video store at the time and he remembered both ordering and stocking this movie onto the shelves. So because there's no trailer, because there's no movie, people have taken to various levels of photoshopping, VHS mock up covers, should we call them. There's a Chinese version of IMDb and it had a listing for this movie and it listed actors for this movie. And you'll also notice David Adkins, that's his Christian name there instead of Sinbad.

[Pablo Torre]

So I love how it says David Adkins Genie in parentheses, Shazam.

[David Gardner]

As if they're two different characters. Like the genie is a Shazam Persona. Or the other way around. Everything about this is solid gold. So then we've got some people who have gone out of their way to create fake VHS covers. Now, my favorite thing I think about this one is that the review, which is very believable, is just Family Fun exclamation point.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. I also want to zoom in on the person who delivered the review of Family fun exclamation point, because that would be. That would be Roger Ebert.

[David Gardner]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is legit.

[David Gardner]

All right, we've got another one here for you. Even better. Even more.

[Pablo Torre]

Is it Jonathan Taylor Thomas?

[David Gardner]

Absolutely it is.

[Pablo Torre]

Standing back to back.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

JTT and Sinbad.

[David Gardner]

Although the first one I think is like a laudable Photoshop. This one, like, Sinbad's head is too big for the genie costume, and Jonathan Taylor Thomas's fingers, like, disappear beneath the genie lamp. But Me Weekly assures us that this movie is outrageously funny.

[Pablo Torre]

Sinbad is just in giant red letters here just to say if you were wondering who this is, it's Sinbad.

[David Gardner]

And if you're wondering what the title of this movie is from this movie poster. Actually, it's not clear. There is no title on this movie poster.

[Pablo Torre]

What's the real Kazaam's tagline there?

[David Gardner]

The world's most powerful genie has just met his match.

[Pablo Torre]

Damn.

[David Gardner]

He's worked for tyrants, remember? But 14 year old max is his match.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, Pol Pot had nothing on Max. So, okay, you mentioned the name of a perfectly named online character named Epic Journeyman. Where is that guy? Where did you end up going?

[David Gardner]

So I DM'd Epic Journeyman on Reddit. I was in the Reddit DMs. I'm in the mines down there for you, Pablo. Just to let you know, sliding into DMs of these poor souls. So Epic Journeyman originally agreed to do an interview with us, but unfortunately he backed out over time.

[Pablo Torre]

His. His journey was too epic for us.

[David Gardner]

Absolutely. Unfortunately. But I did find someone else who has a very similar epic journey to go on with us.

[Melissa Garza]

So my first job was at a video store. And as a kid, I just absolutely loved movies. Like, even before I worked at a video.

[David Gardner]

Her name is Melissa Garza and she also worked in a video store. She also remembers ordering this movie. She also remembers watching this movie. And so I gave her a call to talk about it.

[Melissa Garza]

I remember seeing, like, information in the booklets that we would get at the video store before it actually came out. And so I knew it was coming out. I liked Sinbad. I like to stand up. So it was something I looked forward to seeing. So the first time I remember getting it was when I worked at the video store. I remember watching it a few times, and I even remember watching it on HBO. In fact, in 2004, it was on HBO when I watched it.

[David Gardner]

And she actually worked as a movie reviewer online and even wrote a review of the movie Shazam. So this is a 1700 word review.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a serious business. If you were wondering how into this review, Melissa, reviewer for Scared stiff [e-mail] was, the answer is extensively. It begins like this. After talking with a few of my movie buff friends who are tearing their hair out and feeling insane while remembering the film Shazam. I decided I'd put myself 100% out there. Somehow this film disappeared off the face of the earth. So, knowing I'll be called a nut, I've decided to write what I remember. Because I saw this movie several times. It aired on tv, it was in video stores I worked at, and it was a fun little film.

[Melissa Garza]

As for the plot of the movie, yeah. So from what I recall directly, there was no mother figure in the film.

[Pablo Torre]

The film starts with Sinbad, parentheses, genie, close parentheses, in his lamp, slash, man cave. There were purple curtains or blankets on the wall, a large round bed and a TV across from it. Sinbad saunters over, sits on the bed with two waiting female genies hanging out with him. Sinbad says, quote, let's see what's on tv. It zooms in as the opening credits roll on the tv. The song that played reminded me of the theme of the Addams Family movie, but it wasn't the same tune. I don't recall hearing it on MTV or the radio, but if I heard it today, I'd know it.

[Melissa Garza]

So while the son goes to the attic, he's moving some boxes. As they're moving in, he comes across the lamp. He takes it. He puts it in his room. He goes and he rubs the lamp and Sinbad appears. The kids start making wishes. The son wishes to go back to his school, his original school, where his friends is and where his girl is. He goes back with Sinbad, but it's kind of like Scrooged, where nobody sees them, but they can see what's going on. Sadly, like, the kid sees that life has gone on without him.

[Pablo Torre]

Sinbad asks if he wants the wish to be permanent. John says, no. Forget it. Sinbad means to snap his fingers, but says Shazam. Parentheses. I think that was the magic word and not Sinbad's name in the film. Here, I may be wrong.

[Melissa Garza]

When I think back to the father, the actor I think that is closest to the portrayal is Sam Waterson. But this was around the time of Serial Mom. I know he was.

[David Gardner]

She remembered Teddy, the best friend from Full House, Michelle's best friend from Full House, as the neighbor, the annoying neighbor in this movie as well. So she's remembering these people.

[Pablo Torre]

What happened once Melissa put this out into the world.

[David Gardner]

So basically it went viral. I mean, she said it's the number one review that she ever posted. And the curious thing is, in the comments, you can see a bunch people are talking about how they vividly remember seeing this movie that's being reviewed.

[Pablo Torre]

I think we should be clear about this, too, as this community of people is all testifying publicly to this being their memory as well. Sinbad has what to say about this.

[David Gardner]

I mean, unfortunately, Sinbad is pretty unequivocal. This movie never happened.

[Pablo Torre]

And to answer the million dollar question, did I do Shazam? No. That look like a douche.

[David Gardner]

Shazam. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

No. This feels like a pretty persuasive argument for Melissa to hear.

[David Gardner]

You would think that.

[Melissa Garza]

It's bizarre. I have no idea. I wish Sinbad would come out and be like, yeah, I did this movie. But I. He doesn't remember it, I guess. Or did they wipe Sinbad's memory clean? I have no idea. It's weird.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, Sinbad. I just love the idea of him being haunted by these people who refuse to give up.

[David Gardner]

He even went so far as to do an April Fool's Day video a few years ago where he recorded himself as Shazam.

[Melissa Garza]

Don't come any closer.

[David Gardner]

Okay, this is what we're gonna do.

[Pablo Torre]

We're gonna start all over, right? I'm gonna introduce myself.

[David Gardner]

I am Shazam.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm the genie of the land. You're not a genie. Genies aren't real. Every time I come out the lamp, I hear the same thing. And so again, I ask you, what did Melissa think of that?

[David Gardner]

I asked her.

[Melissa Garza]

So when I saw it. Yeah. You know, I love Sinbad. I thought it was funny. At the same time, there was that, like, part of me and me saying, no, it's real, though. Stop. You know, the only part of that that irks me is when people will take that and write, like, proof that Shazam Existed and use that for clickbait. And you go, and you're like, no, you know, this is something he did five years ago, but otherwise, I thought it was funny.

[Pablo Torre]

So, just to recap here, my assumption was that everyone is just posting like it's a fake movie, but people are saying it's real in the way that J.D. vance. You know that couch. I thought this was all just a joke that everybody was in on.

[David Gardner]

Pablo, I am troubled to report to you that these people are 100% true believers.

[Pablo Torre]

Sinbad denies doing this, unsurprisingly. He's now parodying everybody who believes it, and everybody who believes it is this community of people that seems to be so much larger and so much more sincere than I ever dreamt of when you first came to us with this premise.

[David Gardner]

Yeah, it's a troubling trend, but there is some research behind it that I'd like to tell you about. But to do that, I'm gonna have to ask you some questions, Pablo. Starting with a question about Pikachu.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't like where this is going. So this is where I admit that I know a lot about Pokemon.

[David Gardner]

Fantastic.

[Pablo Torre]

And Pikachu was where you left me before the break. So where are we now?

[David Gardner]

Yeah, I know that you're the host here. This is your show, Pablo, and I'm the guest. But I am gonna turn it around on you, and I'm gonna ask you some questions here. Okay? As promised, we're gonna start with Pikachu. So I'm gonna show you three images, and I want you to tell me which one is Pikachu. So, for listeners, there is a Pikachu with a little red in his tail at the base of the tail on the left. In the middle, there's a Pikachu, just with a straight yellow tail. And on the right, there's a Pikachu with black at the end of his tail.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[David Gardner]

And which one is Pikachu, Pablo?

[Pablo Torre]

The one in the middle feels like the right Pikachu to me.

[David Gardner]

I'm sorry to tell you that the answer is a. It is the Pikachu on the left with a little bit of red in his tail right there.

[Pablo Torre]

That is shocking. For clarity, this is not a bit. Yeah, I've never seen these photos before.

[David Gardner]

You came in blind.

[Pablo Torre]

I came in blind. The one on the left is the one that looked least likely to be real.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. Let's see if we can get you again. Okay, so now let's look at the Monopoly man. Okay, You've played Monopoly.

[Pablo Torre]

I love that boot.

[David Gardner]

Yeah, for sure. That's your. That's your go to. Absolutely. Bootstraps on the left, we've got Monopoly man with a monocle. In the middle, we've got Monopoly man with glasses. On the right, we've got Monopoly Man. No eyewear.

[Pablo Torre]

At the risk of falling into what feels like a psychological trap.

[David Gardner]

Definitely.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm going monocle.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. And unfortunately, you'd be wrong about that. The Monopoly man has no monocle, no glasses.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't like. I really don't like this.

[David Gardner]

Okay, let's do one more here. Did you do Where's Waldo as a child?

[Pablo Torre]

I did.

[David Gardner]

Okay, let's take a look at Waldo up on the screen. We've got Waldo with nothing in his hands. Waldo with a cane in his hands. And Waldo carrying an umbrella that has stripes on it that matches the sweater that he wears.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right, right, right. I am going to go for the cane.

[David Gardner]

Okay. Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[David Gardner]

Does this restore your sense of reality? That is the correct Waldo. You have found him.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank God.

[David Gardner]

I feel like we would have had to take a pause in the taping. If you had gotten all three wrong.

[Pablo Torre]

This episode wouldn't run for sure.

[David Gardner]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

If I had gone over three on this.

[David Gardner]

Absolutely. You'd have to kill that.

[Pablo Torre]

The obvious takeaway here is that that I thought I knew from my childhood. I am 66.6 repeating percent wrong.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. And so this goes to some research that's been coming out of the University of Chicago. I spoke to a professor there who ran the research. Her name is Wilma Bainridge, and I'm.

[Wilma Bainbridge]

An assistant professor of psychology at the University of Chicago.

[David Gardner]

And she has been studying this thing called the Mandela effect.

[Wilma Bainbridge]

So the Mandela effect is when you have this really striking false memory that you're very confident about, but you're actually very wrong about. And also, these Mandela effects occur across many, many people, cross culturally. So it's usually a false memory that's not just your own, but one that tons of people have.

[Pablo Torre]

And so the Mandela in question here is Nelson Mandela.

[David Gardner]

Yes. It gets its name from a group of people also on the Internet, who really stridently believe that the South African civil rights leader died in prison in South Africa in the 1980s, which, again.

[Pablo Torre]

All of what I know and consider real is a bit shaken right now. But he became the president of South Africa, I recall, sometime after that.

[David Gardner]

Correct.

[Pablo Torre]

Nelson Mandela to be released tomorrow. And as you might expect, that is a moment that this country will not soon forget.

[David Gardner]

After 27 years in prison, he served as the president of South Africa from 1994 to 1999. He didn't die until 2013. So that's not a trek. Pablo, you are back with us in base reality now.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, great. Gotta confess, I don't like the dynamic that you've created here.

[David Gardner]

Yeah, it's a troubling reality. And that's what Wilma set out to research. So she set up a series of four experiments. And in the first experiment, they showed people Mandela effect items.

[Pablo Torre]

And.

[David Gardner]

And they showed that they would consistently choose the wrong image, as you did, unfortunately.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. This is me with the Pikachu red tail thing missing. That and the monocle I presume, was on the Monopoly man.

[David Gardner]

Exactly. And an interesting thing here is that the more confident people were in having the correct answer, the more likely they were to be wrong item.

[Wilma Bainbridge]

And for the Mandela effect items, we found people consistently chose the wrong one. They chose the same wrong one. They're really confident that they're really familiar. So they all say that the Monopoly man has a monocle, and they're confident about it. So that showed us, okay, the Mandel effect is real.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is a verified pattern that Wilma Bainbridge is finding at the University of Chicago in which people are very convicted in their belief, despite not at all having a grounding in reality.

[David Gardner]

Absolutely. And so in experiment number two, what they were trying to find out was, is this something where our brains are just filling in the rest of the image. And they had people on computers and they were showing them the images and having them very specifically look at these things, like the fact that the Monopoly man has no monocle. And even after showing them the complete image and emphasizing this, people were still making the same mistakes and choosing the same wrong images.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. I still don't believe the Pikachu red tail thing is real.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. So in experiment number three, what they try to figure out is, is this just an Internet phenomenon like we've been talking about? Like, is this just a meme? Right.

[Wilma Bainbridge]

So we basically did a Google image search of all of the Mandela effect items and looked at the top hundreds of results and then scored which ones were the correct version versus Mandela version. And basically a majority of them were the correct version. So it seemed unlikely that this Mandela effect is some amplification of someone uploads an image and that causes everyone to have a false memory, et cetera.

[David Gardner]

So why, again, is this happening?

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Why is there this stickiness that makes this not just some meme, but something that is actively replacing what they otherwise should and would have probabilistically have seen as somebody who was online?

[David Gardner]

Exactly. And before we get to the fourth experiment, which Explains this a little bit more. I wanna see if I can get you one more time. So let me set the scene back in your childhood again.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo, I did not consent. You're just moving forward, but I guess we'll go with it.

[David Gardner]

Yep. So there's a famous scene in the Empire Strikes Back, maybe the most famous scene in all of Star wars. Maybe the most famous scene in all of cinema. Luke has just lost his hand. Darth Vader, the towering sonorous James Earl Jones voice is playing.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

There is no escape.

[Pablo Torre]

Don't make me destroy you.

[David Gardner]

And he tells Luke something stunning, something startling that changes the course of the Star wars universe. What's that line?

[Pablo Torre]

As somebody who has seen every Star wars movie and can do a pretty good rip. James Earl Jones. Yeah. The line is, luke, I am your father.

[David Gardner]

It's like he's in the room with us right now.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, that's pretty.

[David Gardner]

It's pretty good. Right down to the. Right down to the breathing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[David Gardner]

I mean, I'm labor. Chilled.

[Pablo Torre]

Labored breathing.

[David Gardner]

Let me show you the clip.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I am your father. No is also my first reaction to hearing him say no.

[David Gardner]

Yeah, it's deeply disturbing. I certainly remembered it as, Luke, I am your father.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like I have a 1700 word blog post to me.

[David Gardner]

Definitely. Yeah, we're gonna get you back under the desk. Ready to write.

[Pablo Torre]

Damn, Pablo.

[David Gardner]

There's plenty of these Mandela effects that are out there. People remember C3PO without a silver leg. He has a silver leg. The Fruit of the Loom logo. A lot of people remember it having a cornucopia in it. There's no cornucopia. Berenstein Bears. It's spelled Berenstain with an A I n at the end instead of E I N at the end. And people are confused about all of.

[Pablo Torre]

These, as they should be. Definitely this pattern that you've established, which I. Which many of us, I presume people listening to this are not leaving me alone here and just laughing at me. No, I presume that people are in on this with me, in on the sensation of, okay, what dimension are we actually in?

[David Gardner]

Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that because I asked Melissa a sort of similar question and this is what she had to say.

[Melissa Garza]

So I would say that the only. That the only logical conclusion I can come to that my brain understands is computer simulation.

[Pablo Torre]

It is hard to avoid this feeling that I'm in the company of outright conspiracy theorists.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. What's interesting is that I think Melissa is kind of a sympathetic test case against that idea. Like, she did talk about conspiracy theories, but she herself doesn't believe in these conspiracy theories, with the exception of Shazam.

[Melissa Garza]

That I don't have any rational explanation for. Especially when you have somebody like Sinbad, who I love, I think, is great, saying that. In fact, he's never done that movie, you know, that. I don't know. Like, I don't see a real reason for this film to be something that had to be, like, wiped off the face of the universe. It just, I think, shakes a foundation in me where I'm seeing something that I can't come out with even a rational answer to in my faith, which isn't the most rational of faiths to begin with.

[Pablo Torre]

I do like the part where she is apologetic towards Sinbad, for sure, as if she doesn't want to impugn his credibility here.

[David Gardner]

How has he gotten caught up in this mess? She's concerned for him as well. And I think. Pablo, you know, while I've still got you in the guest chair here for a second, I do want to say one of the most popular theories of why this is happening among people on the Internet has something to do vaguely with the Large Hadron Collider at CERN in Switzerland. And they sort of have this theory that we split off into a parallel universe, one from which Shazam Was made into one in which there is no actual Shazam.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I mean, what we're getting to is something that is also shockingly mainstream. And by that, I mean, I would suppose you would call Elon Musk and Joe Rogan at this point, the closest thing we have to main characters online. And they say, like this, this could be some simulation. It could.

[David Gardner]

Do you entertain that? Well, the argument for the simulation, I think, is quite strong. The theory, basically, for people who don't know, is that if you can imagine a future in which we as humans are able to create a universe via computer. Like the Sims. Except the Sims are sentient. Right. What are the odds that someone hasn't done that to us as well? Games will be indistinguishable from reality.

[Pablo Torre]

The idea that there's a glitch in the Matrix, What I am reckoning with is the idea that there is a glitch in our brains way more often than we would like to admit. And there is something where an image, an idea, some sticky concept replaces the truth. And this does, of course, connect to conspiracy theories as a concept, but it does speak to the power of our feelings to overpower the facts in that weird inversion of, you know, Again, I hate to quote another of these online gremlins, but like Ben Shapiro, these are facts. And facts don't care about your feelings. It's the inversion of that. It's actually feelings don't care about facts.

[David Gardner]

Researchers have shown that they can implant false memories into people. Research has consistently shown that eyewitness testimony is far less reliable. You can watch really funny psychology videos online where even, like short term memory. Like you can see, there are experiments where a guy comes up to an office to take a test and a white person gives him a clipboard and then he ducks beneath the desk and then he comes back up and it's a black person and they haven't noticed the difference. Our short term memories can be so faulty and our long term memories can be even worse.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Instead of our brain being this objective camera.

[David Gardner]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

It is a selective mechanism that we are choosing at times to reject. This is fundamentally a story about remembering and forgetting.

[David Gardner]

Yes. Because Wilma's fourth experiment goes and shows that even people, when they haven't thought about this, even when they haven't been primed, they will still come up with these Mandela effects, not exposure to a meme. It's not anything like that.

[Wilma Bainbridge]

Because the fact that we can induce a Mandela effect in someone who doesn't even know the character, it's unlikely they see Pikachu. And then during the experiment, we leap dimensions and then they have like a Mandela effect. So this shows that it's really something about those images that just cause us to save them in memory in the wrong way.

[David Gardner]

But Pablo, to quote another great movie, I think that the time has come for you to choose either the blue pill or the red pill. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like we're resembling the political discourse in all of these ways. A little too closely.

[David Gardner]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

But I will be red pilled by you. That's what you're offering?

[David Gardner]

No. I'm gonna take us back from the Large Hadron Collider to the Big Aristotle.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

And what do you know about rapping?

[Pablo Torre]

I know a few things.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yeah, right.

[Melissa Garza]

My name is Max, so get these facts. I'm on my heavy BMX and I make some tracks.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

That's whack.

[Pablo Torre]

I do want to remind you, David Gardner, that this is a show about journalism, about investigations and interviews and not Just cruel psychological pranks that you pull on the host.

[David Gardner]

Although that is fun.

[Pablo Torre]

Debatable. But I do want to point out here that your quest to find Sinbad, your quest to find the people on these movie posters, getting to Sinbad was not exactly as easy as we thought, because Sinbad's life, himself, in reality, had. Had taken something of a turn.

[David Gardner]

Yeah. So in 2020, Sinbad had a stroke, and it was a pretty severe medical episode. The great news is, though, that he's made a recovery. He's learned to walk again, he's started making public appearances again, and he's posted messages to his fans.

[Pablo Torre]

It's wild that the kids even know who I am. That's beautiful. Thank you to everybody who's been praying for me and saying good things and supporting me during this time in my life. It means a lot to me. Thank you so much.

[David Gardner]

It seems like he is on the mend, but has perhaps more things on his plate than answering interview requests from me.

[Pablo Torre]

And just to be clear, we 1000% understand truly, why Sinbad would not be able to get back to us. I was mostly just glad to see this iconic figure from my childhood recovering well. What proved to be more frustrating, though, for a show that prides itself on investigative journalism, as aforementioned, was how difficult Shaq was to get a hold of here. Because we tried for months to get David Gardiner's childhood hero to talk about both Kazaam and Shazam. And we kept on getting false starts and bad leads and no response. And it was maddening. It was. It was the opposite of summoning a genie. At one point, we thought about ambushing Shaq with a microphone in real life, only to think better of it, at least, because it seemed like the dude just didn't want to talk to me or David. But then I got an idea. I got an idea to try one last source, one last hope named Adam Lefkoe, who was a great host over at TNT and also, crucially, the co host of the big podcast with Shaq. And we made a wish.

[Adam Lefkoe]

My good friend Pablo Torre has a show. Pablo Torre finds out, and he's doing a story, and he needed help with research.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Got it.

[Adam Lefkoe]

First question, it has been 30 years since Kazaam. What do you think the legacy is now? Do people still come up and ask you about this movie?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yes. And I get mixed reactions. I get from you weirdo adults who shouldn't have been watching the movie anyway. It was terrible. But I get from guys that are adults now that were kids say, oh, that was one of my favorite movies.

[Pablo Torre]

So wait, just want to clarify. For those not watching on YouTube or the DraftKings network, Shaq is wearing sunglasses and pajamas.

[David Gardner]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

With a shirt that has his name across it.

[David Gardner]

He looks phenomenal.

[Adam Lefkoe]

Number two, have you ever heard of a Sinbad movie called Shazam? And do fans ever ask you about that?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

They say they mix it up all the time. Oh, man. When I was a kid, I watched Shazam. Like, no Kazam. So they. They actually get a mix of up all the time.

[Adam Lefkoe]

And you've heard about this Sinbad movie?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yeah, but I didn't hear about it from Sinbad. Shazam Used to be a cartoon. You don't remember that? The guy used to look up at this guy, open his shirt and say, shazam. And then. And he had the thunderbolt.

[Adam Lefkoe]

So what's weird is this Shazam. Sinbad thing. It's a fake movie that's never existed. Oh, but people swear that they've seen this movie. Do you think people are contrary confusing it with Kazaam?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

No, I think they are confusing it with the cartoon that used to be called Shazam.

[Pablo Torre]

This is Billy Batson, star reporter for station Wizz tv. He has been picked by the aged wizard Shazam. To carry on the wizard's lifelong crusade against crime and the forces of evil. When Billy speaks the wizard's name, Shazam. I was not prepared for any of how Shaq would be unfamiliar.

[David Gardner]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

With this thing we've now spent 50 minutes discussing.

[David Gardner]

As far as I know, he's really never been asked about this. And my favorite thing about his answer is he is totally non plussed by the existence of this fake movie. He's like, that's fine. That's fine. I think it's the cartoon that they're confusing with.

[Pablo Torre]

I didn't expect him to go this deep a dive into this line of questioning.

[David Gardner]

And he actually took us one step further, which is helpful because there has been this confusion. Right. There is a more recent Shazam movie like we talked about at the top of the show. Freddy, I swear it's me.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, look, I know we're not really close friends or anything, but you're the only person that I know that knows.

[David Gardner]

Anything about this caped crusader stuff. Shaq actually met the actor who plays the current Shazam. And it's a phenomenal story.

[Adam Lefkoe]

So we were in the NBA all star green room one time, and the actor that was Shazam Was in there. And then Ernie goes, hey, Kurt Warner. Because the same actor played Kurt Warner. And Shaq looks at me and goes, is that Kurt Warner? And I go, no. He goes, who is he? I go, he's this guy in this movie, Shazam. And he does the classic, like, Shaq thing where he winks at you, where, like, he's going to do something with this information. And the guy sat down, and Shaq goes, I'm Kazam. You're Shazam. We're brothers. And the dude's face, like, lit up. He's like, you know about it? He goes, oh, yeah. And then he looks at me and winks. And I was like, he just. This. This actor now is like, shaq knows my movies.

[David Gardner]

And I have to say, if this is a computer simulation, if you wake up as Shaq, you're staying plugged into the Matrix, baby. That guy is living his best life.

[Pablo Torre]

I was gonna say, whatever fake alternate hypothetical world we've been musing about, I just know that it pales in comparison to the world in which Shaq has woken up, put on those pajamas and a shirt with his name on it and said, what are you guys talking about?

[David Gardner]

That's his exact attitude in this question. So let me just say Pablo. Again, I'm not on the computer simulation theory train, but there is one part of this story that just deeply troubles me, and we had Adam ask Shaq about it.

[Adam Lefkoe]

A 1993 Rolling Stone story said you had a Rottweiler named Shazam. Is that true?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yes.

[Adam Lefkoe]

Okay.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

What?

[Adam Lefkoe]

Good boy.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yeah. Good boy.

[Adam Lefkoe]

Okay. Is it spooky that it's the same name as this fake movie to you?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

It's not a fake movie. Shazam Was a freaking cartoon.

[David Gardner]

I did ask questions.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Okay. But. No, I'm just asking. Shazam Was one of my favorite characters besides Superman.

[Adam Lefkoe]

So that was like Birdman.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Yeah, Birdman. Yes.

[Adam Lefkoe]

And what was Shazam like?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Shazam. Was just like. All the characters were similar. White guy working in office, gets mad, just says a word or just does something. But, like, Shazam used to always just open. You'd always have to look at the guy go, shazam. And then thunderbolt would hit him.

[David Gardner]

Okay, so, Pablo, just to be clear, just so I can recap here for you, what's happening. Shaq was in a movie called Kazam.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep.

[David Gardner]

Sinbad was never in a movie called Shazam.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep.

[David Gardner]

This all did and did not happen in the 1990s, a time during which Shaq had a Rottweiler named Shazam.

[Pablo Torre]

I just want Melissa to know that I didn't mean to further radicalize you.

[David Gardner]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But I get it now.

[David Gardner]

Yep. I think that she's going to come away firmer in her beliefs after this. And I think that many of our listeners will as well.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank you for reporting this story. Thank you for being a good boy.

[David Gardner]

You're welcome, Pablo. It's my absolute pleasure. My tail is wagging beneath the desk.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out A Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time.