Share & Pardon & Tell with Michael Wilbon and Dan Le Batard

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out – “Share & Pardon & Tell” with Michael Wilbon and Dan Le Batard

Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: Michael Wilbon, Dan Le Batard
Release Date: July 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out assembles a unique roundtable of sports media titans—legendary columnist Mike Wilbon and podcast impresario Dan Le Batard, both with deep roots in ESPN’s iconic “Pardon the Interruption” (PTI). The conversation jumps far beyond sports scores, diving into the anatomy of sports media, the complexity of professional friendships, the generational evolution of journalism, and the intersection of race, competition, and authenticity in modern commentary. Described as a spirited, sometimes teasing, always affectionate discussion, this episode offers an insider’s look at the history and soul of sportswriting and argument television, and the ways relationships and reputations are made—and sometimes frayed—over the decades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. PTI History, Substitute Hosts & On-Air Chemistry

• Cinematic Universe of PTI: Pablo contextualizes his own journey as a PTI fill-in cohost, reflecting on the show’s two-decade influence and its “married couple” dynamic between Wilbon and Kornheiser.

  “Wilbon and Kornheiser are the predominant married couple in all of sports media.” – Pablo Torre [04:20]

• Wilbon & Le Batard’s Relationship: The duo reminisce about a long friendship rooted in real life, not just TV.

  “Love him. Love him. Absolutely love him. I love Dan Le Batard. Let it be on the record.” – Mike Wilbon [02:20]

• Constructed Narratives: Le Batard shares how PTI’s producers initially played up a “nobody wants Le Batard” angle for comedic effect, shaping on-air roles. [02:26]

2. The Columnist Roots & Competitive Journalism

• Columnist Competitiveness: Wilbon and Le Batard wax nostalgic about the fierce competition among newspaper columnists and the roots of argument television. Wilbon stresses the thrill (and pressure) of out-writing peers—especially after major events.

  “Could you do this one better? Could you tell it in a way that would keep 80-year-old men by the fireplace or in the barbershop or at the gas station?” – Mike Wilbon [16:10]

• Measuring Success: The guests discuss self-critique and audience instinct, with Le Batard suggesting the columnist’s gift is always knowing what’s “good.”

  “A columnist’s gift is knowing for his audience what’s good… it’s why ESPN decided to put newspapers on television.” – Dan Le Batard [15:00]

• Deadline Pressure: Wilbon relives covering the infamous Holyfield–Tyson “ear bite” and the pride in writing under pressure.

  “If you couldn’t get it done… in 23 minutes… then I had you.” – Mike Wilbon [21:30]

3. Writerly Confidence: Zigging, Not Zagging

• Personal Style vs. Contrarianism: Wilbon expresses pride in sticking to his guns (zigging) rather than purposely being contrarian (zagging), unlike some in sports media.

  “I wanted to compare everybody’s zig. That’s what I wanted to do. I didn’t give a [expletive] about zagging.” – Mike Wilbon [20:20]

• Wilbon’s Deadline Mentality: He prizes clarity and calm during chaotic moments, recalling the Tyson ear-bite fight as “a real thing for me.” [21:29]

4. Navigating Fame and Intimate Access

• Friendships with Icons: Wilbon and Le Batard explore the challenge of covering people who become friends or heroes, revealing mutual awe when interacting with figures like Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson, and David Halberstam.

  “These were people I had good relationships with. And then it crossed over…” – Mike Wilbon [33:36] “Sometimes we have to fall in love with our subjects... a real intimate trust can be built by writing about somebody with great care.” – Dan Le Batard [36:00]

5. Thick Skin, Criticism, and Maintaining Integrity

• Losing Friends Over Stories: Both journalists admit to losing or straining friendships due to critical coverage—Wilbon recounts his long, evolving relationship with Isaiah Thomas, complicated by history, rivalry, and honesty.

  “…writing about the Bad Boy Pistons against the Chicago Bulls and criticism that then fractured… a relationship… And Isaiah Thomas is somebody I talk to all the time now.” – Mike Wilbon [39:16]

• Taking Heat from Subjects: Le Batard describes how bonds with high-profile coaches often began with “withering criticism,” then grew into mutual respect.

  “Those three relationships… started with withering criticism. None of those people liked me at first.” – Dan Le Batard [38:05]

6. Generational Shifts and the Podcast Era

• Wilbon on New Media: Wilbon is openly dismissive (and self-aware) about analytics, podcasts, and today’s sports discourse. The group jokes about Wilbon being the last holdout without a podcast, and poke fun at his disdain for statistical jargon.

  “I think the podcast Mike Wilbon would host would be titled ‘Mike Wilbon Already Found Out.’” – Pablo Torre [11:14] “Mike Wilbon doesn’t give a [expletive] about your podcast.” – Dan Le Batard [11:28]

• Podcast as a Dirty Word: The hosts playfully push Wilbon on his dramatic intonation of “podcast.”

  “The way you said podcast felt racist to me.” – Dan Le Batard [44:23]

7. Race, Sports Media, and Analytics

• Cultural Rift on Stats: Wilbon gives a controversial, tongue-in-cheek take on how advanced stats have changed (or sullied) sports talk—a rift, he says, along racial lines about approaches to sports conversations.

  “Black people don’t ever talk about sports leading off with points per possession for launch angle. White people talk about sports that way because they’re excluded from the conversation in every other meaningful way.” – Mike Wilbon [48:30] “Anybody who starts a baseball discussion with Velo should be shot in the— in here.” – Mike Wilbon [49:17]

8. Vulnerability, Affection, and Fatherhood

• Wilbon’s Aversion to Praise: Mike is visibly uncomfortable with direct expressions of admiration from Pablo and Dan, linking it to generational norms and reflecting on his own family history.

  “I appreciate it to a level that you two don’t understand or I’m not letting you understand… That’s not what that generation did.” – Mike Wilbon [25:51]

• Late-Life Fatherhood: A touching segment, the hosts explore Wilbon’s decision to become a father later in life, and how it profoundly shaped his priorities and outlook.

  “The greatest thing I’ve ever done in my life is be your dad. That’s it.” – Mike Wilbon [28:22] “He was busting his ass and he loved that life. It was an unselfish act of clarity and maturity… to become a father at the age he decided.” – Dan Le Batard [28:45]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Le Batard’s Original Role in PTI:

  “He said he went too hard at the beginning trying to beat the audience to the joke of nobody wants Le Batard here.” – Dan Le Batard [02:26]

• Wardrobe Humility:

  “That’s the only way something would get from Macy’s into my closet.” – Mike Wilbon [08:26]
  “He really drilled me with that wardrobe elitism.” – Dan Le Batard [08:34]

• Wilbon on Daily Grind:

  “How was the show today? I don’t know. There’s one tomorrow. It’s like a baseball season.” – Mike Wilbon [13:51]

• Affection Receipts:

  “Almost anytime I tell you this, you get uncomfortable and run away.” – Dan Le Batard [25:19]

• Fatherhood’s Perspective:

  “I didn’t know anything at 32.… I knew how to get on a plane and go find a car. I didn’t know anything.” – Mike Wilbon [30:00]

• On Analytics and Modern Stats:

  “They’ve ruined everything… White people talk about sports that way because they’re excluded from the conversation in every other meaningful way.” – Mike Wilbon [48:15, 48:30]

• On Podcast Skepticism:

  “No. Podcast is not a dirty word to me. I’m the only person in media who doesn’t have one. I’m never gonna have one.” – Mike Wilbon [46:07]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:43] – Equipment banter and early PTI negotiations joke
• [02:20] – Wilbon sets record straight on friendship with Dan
• [04:20] – Pablo’s commentary on PTI’s impact and “cinematic universe”
• [07:21] – Classic PTI banter clip, Wilbon & Le Batard
• [15:00] – Debate: columnist instincts, audience sense
• [16:10] – Wilbon on columns as competitive art
• [21:29] – The “Tyson bit Holyfield” deadline story
• [25:51] – Generational attitudes toward affection & praise
• [28:22] – Wilbon on late-life fatherhood
• [33:10] – On navigating fame and relationships as a journalist
• [37:23] – Crossed wires: criticism, friendship, work consequences
• [44:23] – The “podcast” as a slur joke
• [48:30] – Wilbon’s (tongue-in-cheek) race and analytics monologue
• [49:33] – “20% of this is a joke,” inventing a new stat
• [49:38] – Episode closing, affectionate sign-off

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a fine example of “old school” journalistic ethos meeting new media mutation—alive with dry wit, competitive anecdotes, cultural honesty, and subversive self-reflection. Fans of sports journalism, media history, and anyone interested in the human side of “takes” will find this a must-listen. The warmth and rivalry among the three hosts is infectious, and the episode’s candor about old wounds, proud moments, and generational divides is both insightful and deeply entertaining.

Transcript

[Dan Le Batard]

Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm Pablo Torre. And this episode of Pablo Torre Finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin. 1738 Accord Royale. Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities. Please drink responsibly because today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Mike Wilbon]

Them.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. I wanted this to be a surprise, and instead I got Levitard on one side, I got Mike Wilbon on the other, and Dan has some tiny fans in front of him. And I don't understand what's happening.

[Mike Wilbon]

Why does. Why do you have headphones? I don't have headphones. I can't have better equipment than you either, because you're sitting in a trillion dollar studio. Because I've been to that studio. I'm sitting in my house in Scottsdale.

[Dan Le Batard]

In the middle of PTI negotiations. They're heating up.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, don't be.

[Dan Le Batard]

Don't be bashful, big boy. Don't be bashful.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, boy.

[Mike Wilbon]

No middle of anything that I know of.

[Dan Le Batard]

What do you mean there's no middle of anything that you know of? That contract expires next month and they ain't losing Wilbond and Koreanizer. You know that.

[Mike Wilbon]

Maybe I might just go to Chicago and do something. Wild card. I don't know.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, our air conditioning was down and you have not prepared me for this, but I am delighted to see our old friend Mike Wilbon on El Padrino, the Godfather. It is nice to see him.

[Mike Wilbon]

Wow. Thank you, Dan.

[Dan Le Batard]

Wait a minute. I think you changed that word. What? Padrino is what I called you.

[Mike Wilbon]

I don't know, I thought you said pakdringo. I was like.

[Dan Le Batard]

You came very close to saying like in Spanish.

[Pablo Torre]

More or less racist. Actually, that might have been both at the same time.

[Mike Wilbon]

Good to see you guys.

[Dan Le Batard]

Both likewise.

[Pablo Torre]

This is something that I am doing for a number of reasons, one of which is that as part of the PTI cinematic universe, I saw you growing up co hosting PTI together when Tony Kornheiser was out. And now I'm the guy who only fills in when Wilbon is out. And I want to get a sense of what your actual dynamic is, because you guys, Padrino aside, it's weird. It's. I. I don't quite know if Wilbon actually totally likes you, Dan. Honestly.

[Mike Wilbon]

Love him. Love him. Absolutely love him. I love Dan Lebatar. Let it be on the record.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, I wonder why it is that Pablo comes by this confusion. Yeah, I think it has something to do. Eric Ridhom, the producer, pardon the interruption, has apologized about this to me in the past. He said he went too hard at the beginning trying to beat the audience to the joke of nobody wants LeBatard here. They want Wilbon and Kornheiser. So I'm going to make him right off the bat, the hateable Dan LeBatard.

[Mike Wilbon]

There are enough people and Danzi and Luna Nizino who know that when I went for decades to Miami, there were brunches, dinners, attempts to strong arm LeBatard into buying 4,000 bottles of wine at Prime, 112 from Miles. Miami Heat games going back to Shaq and Wade. So we're talking about the aughts. You know, my mom was alive at the time and Dan and his mom were just unbelievably great. To my mom, who lived in South Florida at the time in terms of all kinds of stuff, even at games, helping her get to Heat games. Now we're just talking 20 years of history that have nothing to do with PTI. So I think I can well chronicle my love for Le Batar.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just need to clarify here, and I should clarify this this week especially, I think that while we are over here striving to create the weird new future of sports journalism, I also have a deep, deep affection for the past and for the even weirder coaching tree from which I have sprung. Because for the last decade now, I have been a fill in co host of Pardon the Interruption, the daily sports television show starring Tony Kornheiser and Mike Wilbon that airs at 5:30pm Eastern on ESPN. And if you've never seen PTI before, just know that Wilbot and Kornheiser are the predominant married couple in all of sports media. They are two incredible journalists who met while working for Ben Bradley's Washington Post. And by now PTI is so good and so influential, inspiring imitators across not just sports, but all of cable news as well, that for Tony and Mike's 20th anniversary in 2021, I got one of the show's biggest fans to send them a special message.

[Dan Le Batard]

Tony and Mike, congratulations on 20 years of PTI and Pablo. I hope you're proud of these guys for staying together so long. I know I am because 20 years is a long time. When PTI first came on the air, I was a state senator in Illinois, and whenever I added a little extra time, I would turn on espn. If I was lucky, there'd be a good basketball game on. If I wasn't, it would be you guys.

[Pablo Torre]

But as my colleague and now boss Dan LeBatard knows better than anyone? Summertime is PTI substitute host season and I always pair up with Kornheiser, whom I have come to regard genuinely as a mentor in this business. And I feel that way even though the most time he will give my podcast. Here is this voicemail from episode one.

[Mike Wilbon]

That was Tony Kornharger leaving this message. Pablo's podcast is launching today and I wanted to help because I love Pablo. I of course have forgotten what the title of Pablo's podcast is. I think it's Pablo Torre Just found out. Or Pablo Torre knows this. Maybe it's Pablo Torre has gout. I'd have made it. Pablo Torre graduated from Harvard. So eat it. To Kill a Mockingbird, Death of a Salesman, the Bible. They're all taken. How about this? Squeeze this with Pablo Torre. Huh? Squeeze this. I like it. Good luck, Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

But speaking of eating it, while I always co host with Kornheiser, I do remember Lebatard before. You know, he self deported from espn most often working with Wilbon. And Wilbon is in some key ways extraordinarily different from me. He's more opinionated in general. He hates analytics as a concept. He regularly rails against terms like exit velocity and launch angle. He might also be the last man on earth who doesn't have a podcast. But when I was growing up watching PTI and Kornheiser was off traveling somewhere, I would delight in a combination that I shouldn't have loved on paper, which was Wilbon and Lebatard doing stuff like this.

[Mike Wilbon]

Pardon the interruption, but I'm Mike Wilbon. Tony. So tired from doing Monday Night Football. So please say hello to Dandy Dan. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Why did we do this?

[Dan Le Batard]

You know, I think I tore this jacket.

[Mike Wilbon]

I think you tore a pectoral muscle.

[Dan Le Batard]

This ridiculous. You might have torn more than that torn growing muscle.

[Pablo Torre]

And I thought to myself, one day I want to sit in that chair. One day I want to work for that.

[Dan Le Batard]

That jacket. Mike, I think I have this right. I don't know if you guys have moved. I was so poorly dressed at the time, did not know how to dress at the time, that I would often go down the street because I spend like big chunks of summer getting really schedule when those guys would go away and make me cover like a really dry time. And I think I still have jackets bought from Macy's in your wardrobe closet at pti. If I had to bet, I think I could find them there.

[Mike Wilbon]

That's the only way something would get from Macy's. Into my closet.

[Dan Le Batard]

He really drilled me with that wardrobe elitism.

[Pablo Torre]

There was no smile. No smile in his voice that would happen.

[Dan Le Batard]

Wardrobe shame me. I volunteered that I was buying.

[Mike Wilbon]

And by the way, see, that's pal Papo. That's what Dan would do. He would offer himself up for the show, for the greater good, for Tony and me to do stuff like that. That's a perfect way. It's natural. And Reinhold didn't even have to write it. I don't remember any of that stuff until somebody brings the clip up and it makes me smile and it makes me genuinely happy to see it. I don't remember any of it. I don't consume anything you guys consume. I don't consume podcasts. I no longer consume sports talk radio. I just don't do it well.

[Dan Le Batard]

You know, though, Pablo, that these guys are genuine heroes of mine. And in one of the stranger ways you will ever arrive at your heroes, where you feel like you know them before you've met them, because you're just looking at their work and you're a columnist, so you know what that relationship means. And they welcome me into their world, which was the very top of this world, to. To play with them. Two very different creat creatures. Two persnickety creatures, one a good deal more persnickety than the other.

[Pablo Torre]

But let's rank. Let's rank the persnicketiness for those who are not familiar with the family tree.

[Dan Le Batard]

Okay, but. Okay, which way do you want to go? Here is it that Wilbon delights in being 45 minutes late according to Kornheiser's schedule every day, purposely for 20 years, in a gangster move that Kornheiser still resents, but will never say so to his face, only in private, behind his back. And Wilbon doesn't care and delights in that.

[Mike Wilbon]

No.

[Dan Le Batard]

Or the fact that Tony Kornheiser still right in a yellow legal pad, the notes that he's taking before the game, as Mike Wilbon just announced to you, I don't consume anybody because I know more than them already. I don't need. I don't need any more information. I know it all.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, no, that last part was not. I don't consume anything, anybody, because I don't give a. I don't. But I do think I know more than most of the people doing all these podcasts and all this now, because I don't believe that they've come by much of anything authentically or genuinely. So Dan is onto something there. The late part is right I'm usually intentionally or cavalierly somewhere between 30 seconds to seven or eight minutes late. I don't give a about that either.

[Pablo Torre]

I like how the podcast Mike Wilbon would host, if he gave a shit about podcasts, would be titled Mike Wilbon Already Found Out.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, no, no. Mike Wilbond Doesn't Give a. Would be more accurate.

[Dan Le Batard]

I don't give a. Mike. Mike Wilbond doesn't give a. About your podcast.

[Mike Wilbon]

There we go. There we go. Foreign.

[Pablo Torre]

I do want to say, like, Kornheiser refuses to do this show or any show that's not his own at this point. Tony's afraid. Mike, you know this. Tony doesn't want to. You will say stuff into this microphone. And Cornheiser is running as far, not even running. He's just locked the door and is sitting behind the locked door. And even to me, he's like, I'm not. I. No, I'm not doing that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, that's.

[Mike Wilbon]

I mean, that's largely who Tony was before he decided to do daily television. Tony didn't engage with everybody. I tell the story that when I started covering Georgetown basketball, when it was far more important, groundbreaking, culturally relevant than any other story in college sports at the time, early 1980s, John Thompson, the person, the coach I was covering for a beat, did not speak to me for a year. Didn't speak to the Washington Post beat writer for a year. Well, when I got to the Post a couple of summers earlier than that, I don't think Tony spoke to me for a year.

[Dan Le Batard]

I say this with the most respect, and I think you guys can vouch for this. I love Tony, but he's crazy.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah, I can vouch.

[Pablo Torre]

There's no one I adore more than Tony. Obviously, I'm somebody who professionally investigates things, gets people to say stuff, and yet the guy I would consider a mentor as well won't. Won't do it. To Dan's phraseology, he is the hardest nut to crack, and it only makes me want it more.

[Dan Le Batard]

I've had him on our show once or twice in 20 years. I think him and Wilbon did me a favor when I was starting the radio show, like, the first week. They did it as a favor to me, but I've asked Tony over the years and then stopped asking because he didn't want to do it.

[Mike Wilbon]

I think that we're the last of the people who did daily stuff the way we did it. And when you do daily stuff the way we do it, there's not a lot of time I don't examine anything people say, how was the show today? I don't know. There's one tomorrow. I don't know. It's like a baseball season. And so I think that Tony is. I don't think that there's as much. He just doesn't want to do it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Wait, so, Mike. So, Mike, you don't, you don't. You don't get the. I imagine that you're not so hardened that you leave every show, because I leave every show and don't remember what we did. But I do have the feeling of whether or not we did well or not, whether or not it felt good. When you leave a show, you may not remember the details, but you know when it's good and when it's not, right?

[Mike Wilbon]

No, I. Because I don't allow myself to examine it. I don't. I don't consume it that way. I know when there's been a particularly good one. That's it.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you measure it? How do you know how to do it again tomorrow? How do you know when it's a particularly good one? Mike?

[Mike Wilbon]

It's just my sense of what's good and what's not. That's it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, but, but when he says that, though, Pablo. That sharpened over years of. When he says my sense of what's good. A columnist's gift is knowing for his audience what's good. Like, it's. It's one of the strengths. That's what these people sharpen. It's why they put us on television, honestly. It's why ESPN decided to put newspapers on television, going back to when Mark Shapiro was the president. And the Sports Century series was just a series before 30 for 30 documentaries that just had sports writers talking.

[Mike Wilbon]

1997, 98 is starting then. And that's very well said, as always by Dan. It's. It's very well said. We have a sense of audience which nobody has anymore.

[Pablo Torre]

Can I talk about the competitiveness, though? Because I don't think people. Because again, I was already after this when I came in through magazines. I have a totally different path. I'm trying to do, like, new media stuff now. The competition among columnists, right, which is really the thing, the primordial ooze that birthed all of the argument television stuff because of pti. But that competition. Mike, could you speak to what it was like to open the paper and figure out, did I just get beaten by somebody as a columnist? What did that mean?

[Mike Wilbon]

Well, I mean, you. First of all, you started, as Dan mentioned, you started as a beat Writer, you were competing against most of these same people all the way up. So from 22 years old, when a lot of us got out of our internships into full time gigs in Washington and New York and Miami and Chicago and LA and San Francisco and Atlanta and smaller places too, Columbus or Oakland or wherever it is we were, you were covering the same things. I mean, that you were all at a Sugar Ray Leonard fight, if you go back when I was young or then a Mike Tyson fight. And so you could all read the way 26 people wrote about Mike Tyson biting off Evander Holyfield's ear and spitting it out. You could read every one of those the next day and have a sense of who did a better job, who was more eloquent, who was more forceful, who was more influential, who was more passionate, who had details that somebody else didn't have because they waited and they talked to Mike in a parking lot at 2 in the morning and rewrote. You had a sense of all of that for decades, on everything. You had it on Carl Lewis and whether he hated Ben Johnson even though he ultimately won the race. You had it on Martina Navratilova and Chris Everett and whether they really liked each other or not. You had it on everything. You had it on Michael Jordan and the Bad Boy Pistons and what? You had it on everything. You covered everything. I'm sitting there with 25 other dudes writing about Holyfield's ear rolling across the mat at me. And I wanted to compare those. And in that moment it wasn't, could you go out and get some other story? It was, could you get this story? Could you do this one better? Could you tell it in a way that would keep 80 year old men by the fireplace or in the barbershop or at the gas station? Could you do that? But at the same time, I wanted to read Lebatard the next day on game one of Dallas Miami and whether or not Dirk got in their ass. I wanted to read his take on that and compare what I said. And that was competitive too. And. And there may not even be a real answer for me that goes back 45 years. 45.

[Dan Le Batard]

I have later in life lost some of the value that I used to have in being competitive. And however it is that competitive masked my insecurities. Back when I was coming up, I was not good at news breaking, competitive. I remember sobbing in a Miami Herald bathroom at midnight because I didn't want to be doing. I wanted to be telling stories. I didn't want to be ch. Where the marlin spring training complex would be. And so I didn't really like what I was doing. But later on, when it became writing, writing stories, I wanted to beat Mitch Albom at whatever the things were that got you awards when you were the best sportswriter in America for telling the best stories. But I will tell you where and when, because I remember it. Some of this got knocked out of me because it was around a dressing room at PTI where Skip Bayless runs into one of your dressing rooms and hides because he doesn't want me to see what his arguments are on the show. And I'm like, okay, I don't want to. This is not. I don't want to be this kind of competitive. This is not. I don't want to play the game this way. I'd rather just put on a. A policeman's cap and talk to a mailbox and see if I can ruin this game instead of winning this argument. I forgot because you guys existed, but only because you guys existed could I zig while you guys were zagging because you guys had establish the bit that these arguments matter.

[Mike Wilbon]

I wasn't interested in zigging when people zagged. I wanted to zig. I wanted to compare everybody's zig. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to sit in the same press box on the same Sunday afternoon because I sat there with Eddie Pope. And when you replaced Eddie, I wanted to compare the zig. I didn't give a About zagging.

[Dan Le Batard]

I know.

[Mike Wilbon]

I wanted to read everybody.

[Pablo Torre]

I cannot relate less to just loving zigs. I was like, that's just so the opposite of how.

[Dan Le Batard]

But I know. No, but see, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I know what he's doing there on the zig. See, this is the confidence of a man who knew his zig was going to be better than most of the zigs. So he's comparing and he's like, no, mine's. Mine stacks up here. Mine stacks up against just about anybody doing.

[Pablo Torre]

Wilbon likes the fastball. That's what he's saying. He's like, you know, you're getting 100 miles an hour. Can you hit it?

[Mike Wilbon]

I love the deadline stuff and comparing who had balls, whose nerves were shot the night. I'm gonna go back to the Holyfield Tyson ear thing. Cause I was. That's a real thing for me. When Holyfield jumped and you see us both feet in the air and Tyson had bit his ear. But we didn't really know if you were sitting in the arena, you didn't really know what happened. Instantly, you had to see a replay. I remember thinking, when I. In three seconds, when I figured out what happened, there was a calm that came over me. And I remember looking down at David Remnick, the great David Remnick, who was at the fight.

[Pablo Torre]

Editor of the New Yorker now.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yes. I remember saying to him, mouthing to him, column, that's it. That's it. Cause if you couldn't do that, I didn't respect you. If you got nervous at that, if you missed deadline, if you couldn't get it done on the East coast in 23 minutes, if it was 11:37 and your deadline was midnight, if you couldn't get that done eloquently in 23 minutes, then you. Then I had you.

[Dan Le Batard]

So I ask you all these years later, Wilbon, who wrote the best story off of Holyfield Tyson, Because I think you're bringing it up because you know that you did. You know that you read 26 stories, and on that day, you kicked Remnick's ass.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, I like what I did that night, but I do go. I did respect the people, the Giants, who covered Ali, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, all of it. I mean, those guys, when I walked in a press box, Dan, I revered them. I was in awe. I would sit around and listen to all of them. And I remember when Ed Polk called me in my dorm room when I was a senior, saying, if the Washington Post doesn't hire you, I got a job for you here in Miami. There's no higher praise. That phone call's 47 years ago because he was at those things and he covered those things and those people, those things that mattered to me. David Halberstam covered those things. He covered Vietnam, but he also covered Ali Foreman.

[Dan Le Batard]

I'm going to embarrass you right now, Pablo. I don't have this wrong, right, Wilbon, you're that for me and Pablo, that's frightening.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, look, you are, though. Oh, you are.

[Dan Le Batard]

You. You paved the way. Whatever. How you talk about Edwin Pope has to be how me and Pablo talk about you and Tony.

[Mike Wilbon]

Jesus, I don't know what you doing.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's. That's the highest compliment.

[Mike Wilbon]

It's, it's, It's a great compliment. It. It's also, it's sobering. It's why I'm sitting here recuperating from foot surgery. Because I'm old.

[Dan Le Batard]

You showed us what the top of the mountain could look like, Mike.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, I, I. That, that, that's Prey is too hot. That's, that's a bridge too far.

[Pablo Torre]

No, it's not, Mike. I did, I don't know if I've told Mike this. When I was at Sports Illustrated, they would assign me to, like, you know, the regionals of the NCAA tournament. And I'd show up at various sites around the country. One of the sites they assigned me to was, of course, Washington, D.C. at some point for like a sub regional. And it was the sort of thing where I wander through the press box, I wander through the media area where it's just like, you know, media guides and plates with gross rotting food. And there, typing by himself is Mike Wilbon. And I did not go up to Mike Wilbon. I did, I was, I was starstruck. But what I did do, what I did do was I took out my iPhone and snuck a photo of Mike Wilbon working and just sent it to my friends. And I was like, look what I, look what I saw. I was paparazzi ing Mike Wilbon when I was a reporter. Like, that's what it was like for.

[Mike Wilbon]

That to have been 2006, when George Mason.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Mike Wilbon]

Was making the Cinderella run.

[Pablo Torre]

Might have been, might have been that you could feel.

[Dan Le Batard]

You remember the creepiness. 18.

[Mike Wilbon]

He mentioned being in Washington, D.C. and that would have been like, the only time I was in D.C. because I was on the road. I went to where the stories were. I didn't wait for them to come to me. And so there were. We didn't have very many regionals.

[Dan Le Batard]

That was, That's a movie poster. I went like, It's a pathetic journalism movie poster. But I went to where the stories were. I didn't wait for them to come.

[Mike Wilbon]

Remember that, Dan? Remember that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Those days, you are. Can I just ask a question here? At the risk of getting a little too intimate with a man who doesn't like that, publicly or privately, does Matthew, does anyone in your life who loves you say that you don't receive affection? Well, that me and Pablo are, are here and we are trying to honor you the correct way for someone who is a hero and an idol in our business, gave us permission and paved the way for us. And almost anytime I tell you this, you get uncomfortable and run away.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah. I'm not that. I'm not from that generation. And I, I, I, I, I appreciate it to a level that you two don't understand or I'm not letting you understand. But no, no, because that's not, you know, I tell Matthew, you know, I've hugged Matthew a million times. In my life, a million. I was 27 years old when my dad died of cancer at 60. I never hugged him. Never. Let me try it again. Never. That's not what we did. That's not what that generation did. I don't know any of my male friends or relatives hugged their fathers. Never. So the, you know, the world has changed. Men are allowed to express things that.

[Dan Le Batard]

They didn't listen to them lamenting. These men, they used to bottle up their feelings and push it down with all that brown liquor, but now they're out here just talking, talking about their feelings.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah, yeah, that's the, that's how the world has changed. It's gone from watching the games to watching clips. We evolve from something.

[Dan Le Batard]

You have not evolved here. You have not.

[Mike Wilbon]

Look at, look at, look at Mr.

[Pablo Torre]

Beast out here hugging his dad.

[Dan Le Batard]

You're staring into the camera. I accepted no hugs, I gave no hugs.

[Mike Wilbon]

I've given you. I'm just chronicling like the journalist I used to be. I also told you I hugged my son every day.

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, you did.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I don't ask about that.

[Dan Le Batard]

I asked you about receiving affection, not giving it.

[Mike Wilbon]

I don't know, I don't receive it. That's not how I was, you know, that's not how I. And you know what, you know what, Dan? It's great because obviously our work comes through what we are personally. At least that used to be the case. I'm not sure it is anymore. But yeah, that's. No, I'm glad to be a product of what I'm a product of. I wouldn't change it. I mean, maybe a little, but, but overwhelmingly I wouldn't change the way I was brought up. And there are certain touches of that that I still include in the rearing of my 17 year old who just has to shake his head and go, Jesus Christ, how did I get stuck with the old dad? You, you got.

[Pablo Torre]

What is old dad life been like for you?

[Mike Wilbon]

Great. It's the greatest thing ever for me. It's the greatest thing of my life. It is the greatest thing of my life. And I tell my son and I, there's no reaction from him because he's at 17. 17 year old boys are the same as 17 year old boys were when we were 17. They don't give you anything. But I tell Matthew, the greatest thing I've ever done in my life is be your dad. That's it.

[Dan Le Batard]

Pablo, I will tell you, having seen Wil bond make a decision late in life to be a dad and at the time when he's talking about the story. I went to it. It doesn't come to me. He was busting his ass and he loved that life. Traveling, living a big life. It was an unselfish act of clarity and maturity for Wilbon to decide to become a father at the age he decided to become a father because he was plenty happy with what his life was at the time he'd arrived at his dreams.

[Mike Wilbon]

That's true. Dan knows how often we talked about it and we did. We talked about it in person. And I tried to convince him of the same thing. Especially when he got to the exact age that I got to when Matthew was born. And so yes, I had. Yeah, I was doing exactly what I wanted to do, Danny. The only thing, I won't call it completely unselfish. I always wanted to be a dad. I didn't know what that meant necessarily, but you know. But yeah, it's the greatest thing. I would trade all of it in for that. And it's the only thing I would trade. What's the only thing?

[Pablo Torre]

What's better about being an old dad, Mike, now that you clearly love being the old dad?

[Mike Wilbon]

You know all the. You didn't know. I didn't know anything at 32. Nothing. I knew how to get on a plane and go find a car. I didn't know anything.

[Dan Le Batard]

That's so funny. That's all we knew, Mike. That's all we knew. That I'd say that's all the three of us knew at 32. I'd say that the three of us were toddlers who had done and gotten good at a specific thing and probably weren't very mature in other places. But that one thing we were pretty good at.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, I think we were. And so then to depart from that took, I won't say unselfishness. It took a certain determination and that could be selfish to prove you could be good at something.

[Dan Le Batard]

Pablo. I don't think he's remembering. Cause he's been a dad now for so long. I don't think Mike Wilbon is doing an accurate appraisal of the dusty cobwebs around exactly what he was 18 years ago. Watching games at midnight, one o' clock in the morning, really liking being on the road, liking the travel, liking, really enjoying NBA cities.

[Pablo Torre]

Mike, Mike. It's talking to Cornheiser because look, I have the weird position of like I, I'm the other woman sometimes or I'm like, you know, filling in for you and I get to hear about you from your spouse. Tony. And he still is saying, Mike loves to go out, loves to travel, loves to. Loves to be out in the world. So I can only imagine what you were like before. Before you quote, unquote, settled down.

[Mike Wilbon]

It's interesting, Pablo, that you hear that from Tony. Dan moved on from that and I didn't. Dan moved on to a life that had other meaningful touchstones. And so we weren't necessarily at an arena at prime 112 at 3:30 in the morning after a game or after a ball game. I did not move on from that willingly. I loved it, by the way. By the way, I still love it to some degree. And I take Matthew with me. Dan, I don't know if you know this, if Miles told you this. Boston Miami Conference finals. I took Matthew, I said, you want to see what it's like? We get on planes, we go to stadiums, we go to dinner. At 2 in the morning, he's sitting at prime 112 at 15 years old at 2 in the morning, you know, with who? Whatever. Whatever players from other sports are around. And that's what I wanted to introduce him to so he could at least feel it.

[Pablo Torre]

Both of you guys have had the distinct experience of becoming so good and famous at what you did that you began to know someone. You covered a true celebrity athlete in a way that became personal. And if you're going to talk about navigating fame, I'd love to know what it's like for you guys, journalist, columnist, guys to figure out. Okay, wait a minute now. This relationship with a very famous athlete or coach or whomever comes to mind here, that that is something that you're navigating.

[Dan Le Batard]

Suddenly, Wilbon's list here is going to be so much better than mine. And he is so much better at this than I've ever been because he almost traffics in the relationship business. The columns would have a richness because he was in the relationship business. So he's got. I mean, how many friends you got, Michael? You're. I gotta think that most of your friends are either in writing or in basketball.

[Mike Wilbon]

Look, I mean, I guess it's no secret. And I'm not gonna be disingenuous. I covered people who I covered as a newspaper person and they knew me that way first. And then the television happened and it segued and they got a kick out of it too. I don't know that there's any PTI and Tony can substantiate this. If not for Charles Barkley sitting us both down, saying, you're not gonna do what you told Mark Shapiro, maybe Charles Barkley. I'm being real now. But there were people, obviously, the guys in that generation, the guys on that team. I covered David Robinson in high school. So these guys got a kick out of seeing what happened to us, both of us. In the case of people in and around Washington, D.C. you see a signed jersey from Charles Barkley in that corner of my me room in Arizona. If I do it this way, you'll see one of Magic Johnson. That's game worn. Game worn of Magic Johnson as a Laker in a championship series. This is not like. I look at this stuff and freak out too. I go, this is insane. These were people I had good relationships with. And then it crossed over and there's one. If there's a 23 jersey in here and there isn't, there's one that, you know, people would say, if there's fame, it trumps all of that. One night, I'm sitting in Madison Square Garden, a guy comes up to me, a guy in a trench coat, and says, mike, I just want to introduce myself. I love your work. Shook hands and he said, david Halberstam, nice to meet you. And that's as close as I'm gonna come to peeing on myself. Okay? But the others are more famous for most people. And Dan has these. Don't let him talk about.

[Dan Le Batard]

I have a few, but.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, I have a few, but.

[Dan Le Batard]

See, mine are different, right? I have a few minor different, though. A. I gravitate toward the weirdos, the people who others might see as weird. So the John Amicis, the Ricky Williams, but also, and I think you can both speak to this as writers, as storytellers, in some ways, we sometimes have to fall in love with our subjects. And when we write about them, they're giving us a great vulnerability, the care of their story to tell it well. And a real intimate trust can be built by writing about somebody with great care. So I. I don't know how many of your two relationships can be there, but when you've told somebody's story with a care that they appreciate, relationships can blossom from there because these things can be painstaking feature articles, and you really immerse yourself in someone's life, talk to the people who love them, get to know them, are curious about them, and look, that's a fast forward to a friendship.

[Mike Wilbon]

What Dan's describing is very organic. And it happened before we became famous. It happened before television or podcasts in our lives. I know I went to Philadelphia in the early 1980s, and when I said to Julius Irving when he was the doctor winning a championship. Mike Wilburn from the Washington Post, he said, sit down here. How's my friend? Anthony is in Kornheiser. And it's like that was intoxicating.

[Pablo Torre]

Another fake doctor. Yeah, it was.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah. Yeah. Didn't need a coat though. You know, that was intoxicating to have Reggie Jackson and Julius Irving like, connect because of Tony, who I inherited full blown relationships from because of that before.

[Dan Le Batard]

Television, because of how he wrote about.

[Mike Wilbon]

Those people, because of how he wrote about those people. And Dan and Tony did much more of that than I did.

[Pablo Torre]

What I wanted to know about really was what is the most dislike you engendered from someone you had a relationship with because of something that you wrote. So you become closer than a standard journalist subject. But now you do something and they, they let you know about it. Do you remember?

[Dan Le Batard]

I've, I've. The funny thing about what you're saying is that I can now look at relationships and this will not surprise Michael at all. I'm sure he's got similar stories like this. But these people tend to be tougher than us in general criticism. So whatever friendships I have with Pat Riley and Jimmy Johnson and Stan Van Gundy begins with me criticizing them. Them being really mad at me, letting me have it and me taking the. Letting me have it and over time repairing whatever needs to be repaired because I'm either fairer or more human or receptive. And. And so I'm not, you know, a caricature media monster. Those three relationships I'm thinking of, all three of them started with withering criticism. None of those people liked.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah, amen to, to, to, to that. And luckily for people having thick skin in public life and we had to develop it because we came to public life after the people Pablo that you're asking us about criticizing. Mine was probably one of my most notable. One was probably more difficult because it goes back to childhood. I grew up watching and being on a playground and then watching my brother play against isaiah Thomas at 13 and 14 and 15 years old. And then writing about the Bad boy Pistons against the Chicago Bulls and criticism that then fractured and then changed and then, you know, reorganized, reworked a relationship into being grown men that probably resented certain things that were said and happened in the 1980s. Look, but I tell you what, you can look at sometimes how these things fester and don't necessarily evolve as much as you want them to. But I look at that one because it was complicated. And Isaiah Thomas is somebody I talk to all the time now. All the time. But there were times, I'm sure, when it was like, wait a minute, I knew this guy growing up. He went to rival Catholic high school.

[Dan Le Batard]

No, but Isaiah's complicated. You're going through. Wait a minute. Criticizing him. When you're the black guy criticizing the black guy and he's in the middle of all the Chicago things that you're in the middle of.

[Mike Wilbon]

His hometown, my hometown, rival schools, Catholic high schools. And Isaiah's school went away, sadly, a couple of years ago. I knew a lot of people who went to his high school. The first person I called was him. Just say, I know how much this means to you. I am sorry today. And so ultimately, you put relationships, I'm not gonna say back together, but Dan knows the complicated nature of those kinds of relationship. And particularly I brought it up so that one. But yes, there are relationships plural, like that. I had one that doesn't count at all relative to dance with Pat Riley. And it just speaks to the greatness of Pat Riley that he probably doesn't even remember it. It doesn't even matter to him. But Pat Riley, you know, when I see him, I'm able to have warm conversations and I'm just thinking, my God, when he refused to put Rolando Blackman in the game, Dan, I didn't let that go for years.

[Pablo Torre]

That's John Starks. That's the knicks.

[Mike Wilbon]

John Starks. Two for 18.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, John Starks.

[Mike Wilbon]

It speaks to how large those guys were and are Pat Riley, singularly, to me, how. How large a person he was and how tough the skin he had that he doesn't. I guarantee you it's not even a footnote in his sort of professional life. Even with journalists. It doesn't register to him. I can't believe it ever did.

[Pablo Torre]

Have you guys lost friends or subjects that you thought you had a relationship with because of something that happened at the job? Because of you choosing. I gotta be media person, journalist person, over guy who's gonna say the thing that you want.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

I have a longer answer in documentary form that I will tell at some point with Ricky Williams about a complicated situation that has a lot of details in it that are rich and interesting that really push the boundaries. When I say at the beginning of this that Wilbon has navigated these friendships well, you will find no places publicly where Wilbon is compromised by any kind of journalism integrity thing because he's too close to somebody. There are no stories like that. People will question how close he is to Michael Jordan, how. How Many years he has spent being not very critical of Michael Jordan, even though there aren't very many reasons.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on, Mike. Have you not. Have you noticed, brokered the peace between Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley yet? How has that not been your job? How have you not succeeded at that yet?

[Mike Wilbon]

That has been my job, and that's all I'll say about it. That has been my job.

[Dan Le Batard]

All right, that's the other documentary we're going to have to work on. That one will. That one. That one will sell because that. That friendship used to be a very special friendship, and it doesn't seem to be anymore.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah, that's. That's very true. And it has. Pablo. It has been my job. It has been my assigned job.

[Pablo Torre]

The thing I think about is the toughness of. Of skin that you gotta have to live in public. And Dan was referencing it that, like, we talked to former athletes, now retired guys, Mike, and they're like, you guys are pretty pies. Like, you guys can't take the criticism.

[Mike Wilbon]

Well, they say that about current athletes more than anybody else. We. We've heard that because they've all got podcasts, and they're all able to level that criticism personally without it being filtered.

[Pablo Torre]

All roads. All roads.

[Mike Wilbon]

Yeah.

[Dan Le Batard]

Well, the way. I've got to be honest, though, Mike, you said. You said the word podcasts with such a disgust a couple of times on. On.

[Mike Wilbon]

I felt like we should reap it.

[Pablo Torre]

It's almost like a curse word.

[Dan Le Batard]

It. It felt like me and Paul. I'm not. I'm not even understanding what happened to me, but the way that you said podcast felt racist to me. I'm not saying it's an accurate criticism. I'm just saying the way that you.

[Pablo Torre]

Said it was a. It was a hard p. It was a hard P. Like.

[Mike Wilbon]

Like every black person besides me doesn't have a podcast too. No, I, I like with you guys. And I am honored to have been on your podcast on multiple podcasts with both of you and Dan. I think the two discussions. The most revealing discussions I've had in my life are with you and Mr. Axelrod for your podcasts within a month of each other. God, has it been three years ago now?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yeah, it's. It's been about that. It was nice to see you. I think it's not the last time I saw you, because I saw you in. Recently in New York for the. For the finals, but I, I. What I remember about that time, in keeping with what it is I was saying about him being very bad at receiving Affection Wilbon. This actually happened on South Beach Sessions. Probably you'll appreciate this. Wilbond's in the middle of telling a story about seeing his late father for the last time. And. And he tears up. And as he's tearing up, he says to me, this is something that happens to me after I've flown sometimes. It doesn't have anything to do with the emotions of talking about my father's death. I am not crying because it hurts to be in pain about the death of my father. I'm crying because the flights do this to my eyes sometimes.

[Mike Wilbon]

They do. They still do. They still do. No. So podcast is not a dirty word to me. I'm the only person in media who doesn't have one. I'm never gonna have one. There was a time in which I wanted to do everything or anything that was hard to prove I could do it. I'm past that point now. I wanna watch Law and Order reruns, anything by Dick Wolf, who should have hired me a long time ago as a consultant. And I wanna watch the Cubs and the Bulls and the Bears and the Blackhawks, and that's what I want to do. And play golf. That's it. That's all I got.

[Pablo Torre]

I like that.

[Dan Le Batard]

Sounds pretty good.

[Pablo Torre]

You want. You want Law and Order sports columnist unit.

[Mike Wilbon]

I don't want to have to die on it, and I don't want to have to cast Stephen A. As a villain at the top of the show. So I'd interrupt. I'm going to need to see some id. Id. Now, of course.

[Pablo Torre]

You don't want to fire a gun like Stephen A. On General Hospital.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, no, no. I don't want to do any of that. But all of my best friends have podcasts.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God. Now. Now it's racist. Now it's racist. Some of my best friends are podcasts.

[Dan Le Batard]

Some of my best friends have podcasts.

[Pablo Torre]

Now, apologize to the people who talk about launch angle, Mike. That's why I really brought you on here. Apologize to people who believe in exit velocity.

[Mike Wilbon]

Are we. Can we. We can curse, right? Can we can curse on this podcast?

[Dan Le Batard]

Yes, you can. Yes, yes.

[Mike Wilbon]

Let me lean into the. Let me lean in here.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I have to lean back now.

[Mike Wilbon]

No, it's not gonna be very brief. I'm not gonna go far them. That's it. Because they've ruined. They've. I'll go one step. We get it.

[Pablo Torre]

We get it, Mike.

[Dan Le Batard]

They've ruined everything.

[Mike Wilbon]

Wait, wait, wait. What would a podcast be without some mention of race? So I'm gonna Go there now. You guys tempted me. You dragged me. And now I'm gonna go there.

[Dan Le Batard]

Oh, no.

[Mike Wilbon]

And I wrote a column. One of the last columns I wrote was about this.

[Pablo Torre]

I remember this column. I remember arguing with.

[Mike Wilbon]

I'm going to say I do. Black people don't ever talk about sports. Leading off with points per possession for launch angle. White people talk about sports that way because they're excluded from the conversation in every other meaningful way.

[Pablo Torre]

Mike.

[Mike Wilbon]

They're excluded from sports.

[Pablo Torre]

Mike, look.

[Mike Wilbon]

So therefore, they've invented. I'm only half joking. Maybe not Even half. About 20%. They've invented a way to get back to reclaim sports by getting into Velo. Anybody who starts a baseball discussion with Velo should be shot in the. In here.

[Pablo Torre]

Mike, do you realize you're so close? You were so close to inventing a joke part. Take statistic. You were like 20% of this is a joke. I'm like, mike, you're so close. You're so close to being an advanced statistic.

[Mike Wilbon]

I went to Law and Order. Opening scene. Bang.

[Pablo Torre]

Mike Wilbon, Dan Lebatard. I say this unironically. Two of the weirdest and greatest people I've ever met. Thank you for doing this.

[Mike Wilbon]

Pablo. Thank you, Dan. Thank you.

[Dan Le Batard]

Love you, buddy.

[Mike Wilbon]

Love you guys both. Love you both.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo Torre finds Out is produced by Walter Averoma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor and Chris Tuminello RStudio Engineering by RG Systems Sound Design by NGW Post Theme Song as always, by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.