Share & Rage & Tell with Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard

Summary

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Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Share & Rage & Tell with Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard

Date: November 22, 2024
Guests: Mina Kimes, Dan Le Batard
Host: Pablo Torre

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners through a spirited and often hilarious exploration of rage, social media migration, negativity in sports media, and the underrated joys of being boring. With Pablo Torre steering the conversation (and jokes), Mina Kimes and Dan Le Batard dive into personal stories, pop sociological theories, and their own digital lives as they play "Share & Tell". Expect thoughtful arguments about the nature of community, candid admissions about online toxicity, and unexpected tales of dull hobbies that have built surprising communities.
Tone: Conversational, irreverent, insightful, self-deprecating.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Rage and Road Rage (00:36–04:48)

• Dan’s Road Rage Story

  • Dan shares a story of leaping out of his car, enraged after another driver provoked him, despite his wife's attempts to restrain him.
    • “The way rage works is you don't do smart things or do much thinking.” (Dan, 00:48)
    • “The person scampered off because I was enraged.” (Dan, 01:46)
  • Pablo and Mina needle Dan, contrasting his rage with the more passive, often comical way they perceive him.

• Theory on Road Rage

  • Mina proposes: Road rage is one of the only public spaces left where you can’t easily express anger virtually or leave an online review—so the impotence and anonymity escalate emotion.
    • “It's literally only IRL…so few places like this now…there’s no way to express their anger virtually.” (Mina, 02:07)

• Joking About Animal Metaphors

  • Extended riff comparing Dan's raging nature to hippos and wildebeests, bantering about which animal is more aggressive and who’d win in a fight.

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2. The Exodus to Blue Sky: Social Media Migration & Community (04:48–20:35)

• Mina’s Topic: The Rise of Blue Sky

  • Traces Blue Sky's explosive growth post-Elon Musk’s Twitter takeover and recent U.S. elections—from a Twitter alternative to a haven for users fleeing toxicity and harassment.
    • “It has actually spiked and exceeded [Threads], which is incredible…exponential growth for an app…run by like 20 people.” (Mina, 05:07)
    • Blue Sky’s main differentiator: aggressive moderation tools and a promise not to feed user data into generative AI.

• Structural Differences & Corporate Values

  • Pablo explains Blue Sky’s transition to a public benefit corporation, emphasizing its conscious capitalism structure.
    • “Gives you a roadmap…far less likely to go down a road where they are making profit-driven decisions at the expense of usability.” (Mina, 08:08)
    • “Unlike every other social media platform…they have already come out and said we will not allow our data to be used for generative AI.” (Mina, 08:28)

• The Social Media Community Question

  • Dan and Pablo reflect on changes in public criticism and the search for safer, more constructive digital communities.
    • “Is there anything wrong with seeking community that has a little bit less faceless, acidic insult?” (Dan, 10:57)
    • “It is so refreshing to not have your algorithm dictated by Elon Musk.” (Pablo, 11:39)

• Reframing “Echo Chambers”

  • Mina argues the exodus isn’t about wanting a one-sided echo chamber, but escaping an environment where real conversation is drowned out by hate, bots, and toxic engagement.
    • “We are conflating egregious racism and misogyny with diversity of thought… reasonable opinions or disagreement.” (Mina, 13:09)
    • Dan agrees, noting the harmful impact of online toxicity, even for seasoned public figures: “The acid is so poisonous…I can't even help but notice as a 55-year-old…that's affecting the way that I feel.” (Dan, 14:39)

• The Pursuit of News & Good Faith Interaction

  • Pablo and Mina lament how content “farming” on Twitter now drowns even well-intentioned criticisms, leading them and others to miss genuine community feedback.
    • “Impossible to disentangle your experience as a user…meant as just actual thoughts from the things that are meant to trigger.” (Pablo, 16:28)
    • “The viral posts [on Blue Sky] have just been funny…it reminds me of Twitter, why we fell in love.” (Mina, 17:30)
    • Mina: “I hope it lasts…I have really missed hearing from people who actually watch and listen and read what we do.” (Mina, 17:49)

• Memorable Quote

  • “I only actually care about opinions and criticisms…by people whose opinion I respect…not that you're somebody who is just living in order to see if they can trigger me.” (Dan, 19:03)

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3. Negativity in Sports Media & the "Business of Blame" (21:11–30:46)

• LeBron, Sports Criticism, and Media Negativity

  • Dan introduces a debate stemming from a statement by Kevin Durant’s agent (retweeted by LeBron) about the negativity dominating sports media and the retreat from social media.
    • “Why can't the coverage be the same [as the unity in sports]?...I for one find it all a waste of breath.” (Dan reading, 21:20)

• Media Then and Now

  • Mina argues negativity isn’t new, but social platforms now amplify it; Dan sees the discourse as having genuinely coarsened, starting with sports radio and accelerating through aggregate media seeking clicks.
    • “On NFL Live, we do breakdowns, trends, X’s and O’s…but in a sports bar, two guys…are going to be arguing about who's likely to choke…Those debates…aren’t inherently toxic.” (Mina, 26:25)
    • “I do believe a lot of coverage…is about blame instead of celebration of excellence because it's easier…to make content out of blame.” (Dan, 24:02)

• Expertise vs. Armchair Criticism

  • Athletes face both high-level (film room) and low-level (“you’re a choker”) critiques; Pablo maintains general fans’ opinions are simply part of sports’ mass appeal.
    • “Would you ever expect somebody…doing PhD level work to hear the criticism of somebody who can barely understand it…not feel justified resentment?...That is actually the business you have chosen.” (Pablo, 28:29)

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4. Boring Is the New Interesting: The Dull Men’s Club (31:05–42:22)

• Pablo Introduces the Dull Men’s Club

  • A Facebook group for people sharing genuinely uninteresting things—lentil recipes, lawns, “boring” hobbies—reveling in not trying to be viral or fascinating.
    • “I think I am about to join the Doll Men’s Club. I think I have qualifications.” (Pablo, 32:09)

• Are We Self-Aware About Dullness?

  • Mina: The internet’s endless micro-communities make anything interesting to someone.
    • “I'm not sure what is dull anymore to people…because you can find a community who thinks anything is fascinating.” (Mina, 32:51)

• Confessions of Dull Habits

  • • Mina: Addicted to word games and crosswords, pale pandemic Wordle flexes.
    • Dan: Sunday morning TV, riding bikes, stretching, playing Ms. Pacman and Candy Crush.
      • “I happen to like the tranquil sounds for 90 seconds of a creek… I'm not going to argue with you about it.” (Dan, 35:49)
  • Pablo: Obsessed with caring for (and repotting) over 35 houseplants—“Repotting with Pablo”.
    • “This is the show that I host privately, it's called Repotting with Pablo…35 plants. I can go on and on…” (Pablo, 37:34)

• Is Talking About Your Kids the Dullest of All?

  • Mina and Pablo joke about strategizing to avoid boring child discussions with childless friends.
    • “Would you like to hear about Nino's transition from two naps to one…stretch his wake window…?” (Mina, 42:04)
    • “The best thing I do right now is apply to kindergarten. If you guys want all of the takes…I have so many opinions.” (Pablo, 40:27)

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Memorable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• Dan on Road Rage:
  “I leap from the car and scare my wife. And it's dumb because people here are armed.” (00:19)

• Mina on Social Media’s Last Stand:
  “It's literally only IRL…there’s no way for someone to express their anger virtually. So if you're in a car and something happens…there’s like increased anger because of the sense of impotence…” (02:07)

• Pablo on Blue Sky’s Appeal:
  “It is so refreshing to not have your algorithm dictated by Elon Musk.” (11:39)

• Mina on True Echo Chambers:
  “We are conflating egregious racism and misogyny with diversity of thought… reasonable opinions or disagreement.” (13:09)

• Dan on Criticism:
  “I only actually care about opinions…given to me by people whose opinion I respect…not that you're somebody who is just living in order to see if they can trigger me.” (19:03)

• Pablo on Boringness:
  “The real answer…is that we all think we're interesting. That's why we ask you to watch this. We're doing right now…if we are boring, you're not watching…” (33:33)

• Mina on Parenting’s Audience:
  “Nobody wants to hear about your kids.” (41:29)

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Notable and Hilarious Episode Highlights

• Dan’s animal rage analogy devolving into a debate over whether hippos or wildebeests are more dangerous.
  (03:56–04:21)

• Roasting Dan’s email provider and TV preferences:
  “You're on AOL. I don't ever know what you may or may not ever try when it comes to new Internet technology.” (09:16)
  “That's so AOL of you. That's the most AOL news program that exists.” (35:42)

• Parenting Chat Avoidance:
  Coordinating to quickly “speed run” kid talk before their friend arrives.
  (40:37)

• Dan’s sartorial confession:
  “Suspenders and a pocket watch with the chain…given to me by my grandfather.” (39:10)
  Mina: “In my mind, he looks like a union busting oil tycoon.” (40:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:36–04:48] Road rage stories, anger in public, animal metaphors
• [04:54–20:35] Blue Sky: social media migration, moderation, (non-)echo chambers
• [21:11–30:46] Negativity in sports media, LeBron’s social media break, “business of blame”
• [31:05–42:22] The Dull Men’s Club, personal confessions of dullness, the perils of parenting chat
• [42:22–43:54] What did you learn today? Final reflections and jabs

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Takeaways

• Rage and emotion are difficult to control, especially in rare spaces where immediate feedback and digital recourse aren’t accessible (like the road).
• The migration from toxic social spaces (Twitter/X) to alternatives (Blue Sky) is as much about seeking safety and meaningful feedback as it is about "echo chambers".
• The “business of blame” dominates not just media but also sports fandom and online culture, yet there remains deep nostalgia for genuine, critical, and supportive community.
• Even the most fascinating, high-achieving people indulge in the boring—finding community and meaning in the mundane.
• Self-awareness, online and off, remains in short supply—especially about what is truly interesting or dull.

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Closing

With humor and candor, Pablo, Mina, and Dan challenge assumptions about anger, online community, media criticism, and the value of being “boring.” Listening to their banter is as much about the joy of friendship as it is a reflection on modern digital— and real—community.

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Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Dan]

Did we sound extra Woke in whimpering about a need for community. This is not, not, not an echo chamber.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad.

[Mina]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[Pablo Torre]

Dan has stories of great road rage that he has felt himself personally that have maybe humiliated him in front of loved ones.

[Dan]

Recently, my wife. And when I say recently, I'm going to say a year ago, my wife had to sort of hold or try to hold unsuccessfully, me, my seatbelt and my, My chest back because after shooting me a bird, somebody also started talking to me. And this is not safe for me to do. It's not wise, it's not smart. But the last words I heard set me off. And the way rage works is you don't do smart things or do much thinking.

[Mina]

What'd you do?

[Dan]

I leap from the car and scare my wife. And it's dumb because people here are armed.

[Pablo Torre]

You tried to get out of the. That was an actual.

[Dan]

I did get out of the car. I did get out of.

[Mina]

Got out of the car.

[Pablo Torre]

If you're out. If you're out there, send it in. Send it in to our show. We want the tape of this. That's. That is. Actually, I'm glad. I'm so glad Valerie was there. Jesus, man.

[Dan]

Well, I, it went okay. I'm still here. And it's. I'm. And I've learned. I've learned my lesson. And the person scampered off because I was enraged.

[Pablo Torre]

You were charging wildebeest and you effectively intimidated.

[Dan]

That's right. That's right. That's what happened. Well, I, I was enraged. I was legitimately enraged.

[Mina]

So my theory is it's one of the very few spaces right now in public life where the customer doesn't have recourse, where if you're mad, you can't log on and leave an angry review. You can't find someone's social media and spit vitriol at them. It's literally only irl, right? There's so few places like this now in our lives where there's no way for someone to express their anger virtually. So if you're in a car and something happens and maybe a guy cuts you off or somebody doesn't go at a green light, I suspect there's like increased anger because of the sense of impotence you feel relative to other situations.

[Pablo Torre]

What Mina is saying, which is a through line, I think that'll follow us through today's episode is that she would like every driver in America to post their username on their window so she can get in their mentions and dunk on them.

[Mina]

I don't have road rage. I'm trying to explain what I think is happening. It's just a theory. I don't know. What do you think, Dan?

[Dan]

I'm surprised that you guys are surprised though, that I am capable of a rage that would not be able to be held back by my wife's delicate and model esque hand. I'm surprised that you guys didn't think that you guys thought I was just going to like fake my anger, that I wanted to be seen by my wife this way and that she would be able to successfully hold me back with just her hand.

[Pablo Torre]

My thing with you is that so much of our interactions on this show and yours are just us making fun of you. So the idea of there actually being a straw that breaks the hippos back, I'm like, what? What was it? And it turns out you don't even know. You didn't even know.

[Dan]

Is it, well, is it hippo or is it wildebeest? Because what I'm about to do, if you were here, I'm feeling helpless because right now I want to physically attack you.

[Mina]

Hippos are like the most aggressive animals. Quietly amongst. Nobody talks about this because they're like, oh, hungry, hungry hippos. They're so cute. They're so fun. They look so funny. Those. You do not want to encounter a wild hippo.

[Pablo Torre]

They are hungry, hungry for. For blood.

[Dan]

They will kill you. And I would at this point like to beat Pablo while swinging Mina by her ankles. Just.

[Pablo Torre]

Mita, do you want to begin the actual show with the topic that you brought us that you wanted to. To share and tell about?

[Mina]

Yeah, my topic is the Rise of Blue Sky. There's an article in the New York Times about it. There's been articles all over the place about this app, BlueSky, which was created, I think a few years ago, right. As an alternative to Twitter around the time that Elon Musk took over, but didn't really catch fire until this past week around the election. I mean, the daily activity was very low, way behind Threads, which is the other, the meta owned alternative. And it has actually spiked and exceeded it, which is incredible given how far ahead Threads was in terms of the daily users. It's up to 20 million users, over 20 million now. So exponential growth for an app that is currently run by like 20 people for those who aren't on it. And who are on Twitter X Pardon me. It is basically the same in terms of the interface. It looks the same, it feels the same. The biggest difference really is the way it actually allows you to moderate content. It provides much more aggressive blocking features, provides tools you can use to just not see certain corners of the Internet. It allows the reports of harassment actually work on Blue sky and that seems to be a big part of the appeal. I know it's a big part of the appeal for me personally, especially over the last week. I think as what you know, the harassment and aspect on Twitter has been escalating for a while now. But last week did feel like a turning point. So there's that. There's also a lot of skepticism. Nobody wants to be on a zillion apps. Everybody's on Twitter. So people don't actually want to leave. People in media might not want to leave for career reasons. I'm curious about all of your guys thoughts about this and just about kind of whether or not you even. I know Dan and Pablo have different feelings about this. Whether you even feel like you want a place to engage and post and do all of these things.

[Pablo Torre]

So Dan, for me I tend to just see what Mina's doing and I'm like, I guess it's time to join Blue Sky. When she joined I was like, I guess the person who thinks most rigorously about social media has done this. I should probably just follow her. And so I did. And it is hard to shake the feeling that you're now watching a spring football league. Yeah, like I guess I'm on the XFL of Twitter now. I'm on there. And I've been also curious like what am I on? And so just a couple of the background facts here because I don't know if you know this, I didn't know this until I started Googling this. Mina referred to this sort of like odd ownership group. Blue sky originally was started by Jack Dorsey, who was the guy behind Twitter. At first he wanted to be decentralized and then of course he is no longer part of this team. He left in May 2024 and now it is a US public benefit corporation. And it's, it's the thing that like Patagonia is and Allbirds and Warby Parker, these corporations that apparently have some sort of legal protection under the guise of, I guess it's now colloquially known as conscious capitalism. They have protection from being sued or I guess held to account by their own shareholders for not maximizing shareholder value.

[Mina]

Yeah, which is really interesting. Right. Because as we look at this platform and ask what is the potential? If I'm joining, will it change? Is it worth investing my time? The corporate structure, which Papa, you explained perfectly there, gives you a roadmap which is to say it's. It makes it so that this company, this app, this social media platform is far less likely to go down a road where they are making profit driven decisions at the expense of usability. But one thing that caught my eye, unlike every other social media platform right now, they have already come out and said we will not allow our data, anything you post here to be used for generative AI. That's very unique and unusual and would not be happening, I believe, without the corporate mandate that you just described.

[Dan]

There are a couple of things here that I wanted to discuss with you guys because in the reading material that I was doing, I did get on at your behest. I have not used it very much, but it looks and feels very similar to Twitter. You seemed very excited that I got on there.

[Pablo Torre]

You're on aol. I don't ever know what you may or may not ever try when it comes to new Internet technology.

[Dan]

You guys are using old information on me. I now have metal arc media email address. But that's okay. You've properly shamed me. I am no longer an AOL person. But thanks for bringing it up yet again. I appreciate it.

[Mina]

Forever an aol.

[Dan]

Yes, thank you. I appreciate it. The hippo and the wildebeest appreciates all the kind words that he's gotten so far as you continue to enrage him. One of the things that I read that I don't know if it's true or not is the headline the age of social media is ending. Which I wanted to explore with you because I have seen the fleeing from Twitter. It is a thing that is actually happening now. And the entirety of my life. I've been pretty used to public criticism, going back to a day when people had to put a stamp on and write a letter to a newspaper and go through a great deal of effort to insult you and be bothered by your opinion. But this is being viewed as a place where you are safe as a liberal, to be free from poisonous, acidic, hostile, bullying criticism. And that is viewed as a weakness to seek community. That is a little bit kinder because I do believe in the social media age, one of the things that's been lost is just community, just in general. People are on their devices so much that I think, I don't think I have this true for all of America. But in the bigger cities, it does seem like there are fewer kids playing with other kids in the street. And I in my own group of people here, our family, our bubble, this is not, not, not an echo chamber, our safe little bubble here. These guys have told me that their kids don't play in the streets and they don't know their neighbors. So is there anything wrong with seeking community that has a little bit less of faceless, acidic insult in it because you just want to be around not necessarily a group of like minded people, but just a group of people that aren't perpetually looking for the way to make jokes at your expense. And I say this as someone who just started doing this show, being called a hippo and a wildebeest by people that I care about in my community.

[Pablo Torre]

A lot of the critique of the, of the Exodus has been this is libs going to seek a safe space. And none other than noted, noted reasonable man Dean Phillips, who you may recall from his attempt to be president, was saying like we need to have conversations with the other side. The entire lesson of the election was we don't talk to each other enough. And this is the embodiment of the problem. And meanwhile, my number one takeaway from blue sky is it is so refreshing to not have your algorithm dictated by Elon Musk. Like it just. If nothing else, I just want to lead with that. Like it's just free from his personal thumb on the scale before we get into the political nature of it. That is just so glaring as well.

[Mina]

I think that actually what you're describing is why the echo chamber critique rings false to me. So the reason why, for me personally, I still use Twitter to post my content and try to direct people, frankly, it doesn't do a very good job of that anymore. And this is another thing that the new platform seems to be doing well is actually encouraging people to click on stuff. But anyways, for the most part I don't read the things people say to me on there because if I did, it's just, you know, I, I have recognized that being called Dei 30 times a day is not great for my mental health. Call me weak, I stuffed, I don't care. So the reason Pablo too that that happens is not even looking in my mentions. If you open up something you have posted on X, the replies that are prioritized and elevated are either bots, engagement farmers, or in many cases the most foul, you know, comments possible because that is what the website now prioritizes. You can pay for the opportunity to be the worst person in the world. And rock up to somebody with a giant megaphone. So I bring that up because what I am, and I think a lot of people don't like, is not a difference of ideas. It is someone literally saying toxic, foul things to me. And I think, Dan, what sometimes bothers me when we had these conversations about, well, you know, about safe spaces and can both sides talk and whatnot, is we are conflating, like egregious racism and misogyny with diversity of thought, right? Or with like, reasonable opinions or disagreement.

[Dan]

I will tell you, as a longtime newspaper columnist a long time ago, and maybe people won't believe this, I not only don't mind criticism, I find criticism useful. I have found that a community of people who like what you do or the original form of Reddit for our show made our show better because the criticism of was constructive and not something to get defensive about. But we are conflating criticism and the kind of insult that makes me jump out of a car because, no, you're not allowed to talk to me like that because that's not in any way helpful. It's not useful. And I believe, I don't think this can be disputed. The acid is so poisonous that I can't even help but notice as a 55 year old, that I believe is more accustomed to criticism, criticism or public criticism than the average person. I'm like, no, that's bothering me. Like, that's affecting the way that I feel that whether this is a real person or not or a bot, there's something there that's trying to bother me. Why would I choose to be around that? Why would I choose to spend time with something that seems to be designed to get into something, into a soft space of mine that has over the years gotten pretty strong at handling whatever this is.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, I do want to also just add on to that by saying part of what I use Twitter for is to get news, right? And so I was following and still continue to follow a lot of conservatives because I'm actually curious what they have to say genuinely. Just like I'm curious from a, from an earnest, like, okay, what is the other side on some things I feel strongly about saying also, like, what's the conversation over there? It's the same reason I have group chats with my friends from high school where it's like, hey, these are how Republicans feel right now. I am actually going to click on that content. What I am most objecting to, though, is I think the structural incentive system that Twitter has become because now it is content Farming like it's beyond the ideology. It is just impossible to disentangle your experience as a user trying to read things that are meant as just actual thoughts from the things that are meant to trigger. Yeah, it's just really hard to think that I am getting a thought as opposed to someone's attempt to get money.

[Mina]

I'm so glad you bring that up because so much of the discussion about these two platforms and the exodus and what people are looking for in echo chambers is about politics.

[Dan]

And you were just doing the Trump dance, by the way, while you did that. The way that you were doing that, you were doing the Trump dance. I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Mina]

People are calling everything Trump dance right now.

[Dan]

There's only one. The one. The one that's ejaculating two giraffes is the only Trump dance that there is.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Mina]

Certainly there is a political element to this. But, Pablo, you're speaking to the other thing that has made that app fairly significantly less user friendly and unpleasant. And I think it's not political at all, which is the engagement farming, which is that people are now using it to make money in the lowest ways. Right. It is all either rage bait, engagement bait, misinformation. It's the lowest common denominator. And one thing that has been nice is when I open the algorithm on bluestack guy, the viral posts have just been funny. It's been like good jokes. It reminds me of Twitter, why we fell in love.

[Pablo Torre]

Why we fell in love with this terrible, addictive platform that we all hated initially, also in the first place.

[Mina]

And not. It's not. They're not political jokes. They're just like weird, goofy observations, mundane things. They're cleverly written. And that's what I want out of social media. I just want to be entertained. I. I also. I will say this, though. I. I have really, and I hope it lasts. And I hope that the moderation tools keep working. I have really missed hearing from people who actually watch and listen and read what we do, because I have not been able to do that now for the last three years or whatever, ever since Elon Musk took over a little bit before that, to be honest. And it. It really has been quite gratifying. And again, maybe I'm a loser for wanting to hear from folks and wanting to talk back to them, and it's not. But I missed it. I missed that part of social media. And it is fun, however short lived it'll be.

[Dan]

I had a thing happen to me in New York that Sort of illustrates some of what it is that you're talking about, because I'm walking through the streets of New York, and I meet somebody who is clearly a fan of what we do. And he filed. What were his complaints with the present evolution of our show to me, three or four of them. And a warm feeling came over me as I'm digesting what is criticism, because I'm in front of a real human being who cares about what we do. And I'm like, let me hear what you got. I'm actually interested in your opinion because I think that your care is authentic. You're not trying to manipulate a situation with an agenda where I have to question where you're either real or not. Like, I don't know whether you're a bot or not. And so I, in front of a person who was being critical, was like, yes, this is what it feels like to be a part of a community. And then the next step on that is the reminder that I only actually care about opinions and criticisms that are given to me by people whose opinion I respect. I have to respect your opinion, and in order to respect your opinion, and I have to know that you actually authentically care about what it is I'm doing and saying, not that you're somebody who is just living in order to see if they can trigger me, a.

[Mina]

Real human who speaks to me like a human being who has objections to my thoughts or wants something different out of my show. I. I will absolutely hear out. The problem is on the other app, it's people being paid to inflame, paying to pick fights who are just. You know, it's. It's. They're not there for anything being done in good faith or. And the people who are. Their voices are being ground out.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. All of which is to say that becomes a blue sky. I give about two months. Two months and then roll back.

[Dan]

Did we sound extra? Woke in whimpering about a need for community. This is not, not, not an echo. Echo chamber.

[Pablo Torre]

Dan, what you got?

[Dan]

Hold on a second here, buddy.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, glasses, glasses. Glasses on.

[Mina]

When he puts his glasses on, you know it's going to be a serious story.

[Dan]

I hate that I have to still put my glasses on for things.

[Pablo Torre]

He's riffling through papers.

[Dan]

Well, you know what? Okay. I'm not gonna be made fun of about this anymore. This is the LeBron James leaving social media. And he was leaving social media essentially because this is Kevin Durant's agent. It confuses me why some of the national sports media still think that the Best way to cover sports is through negative takes. We can all acknowledge that sports is the last part of society that universally brings people together. So why can't the coverage be the same? It's only clickbai when you say it. When the platform is so big, you can make the change and allow us and all an escape from real life negativity. I for one find it all a waste of breath. The Olympics and JJ and bronze show was the future of what this can and should all be. LeBron then agrees with it and says he's taking a break from social media. Your thoughts here, Mina?

[Mina]

I don't think sports media is more negative than it was five, 10, 15 years ago. I just think that per our earlier discussion, the people who run social media accounts for sports media understand that putting out the most divisive, controversial, whatever things that are said is more likely to engagement. And I think athletes agents are more likely to see those things. So I think there is, if there's any, if there's veracity to sort of what they're both claiming. And again this a little bit muddled here. It's centered in the fact that social media is amplifying negativity as opposed to the underlying commentary being different from what it was in the past.

[Dan]

I think that LeBron is thinking that media is Skip Bayless. That media is someone who has chased him for 20 years to remind him that his excellence isn't what his Excell actually is, which is to compare him to Michael Jordan and have him fail in that comparison. I don't know that LeBron is doing the beat reporters who he interacts with, none of whom are going to be especially mean to him. The grand majority of media that interacts with LeBron James does the positive thing. But then I would disagree with Mina on I believe this has all gotten coarser. I believe sports radio began this before social media. And the need for everyone to compete in a space where they are getting the attention for what their opinion is, I do believe makes it so that a lot of coverage and you tell me where it is you think I'm wrong here. I do believe a lot of coverage is about blame instead of celebration of excellence because it's a lot easier for us to make content out of blame than it is out of celebration.

[Mina]

You don't think 15 years ago I have seen some really toxic segments, really. I mean the discourse around LeBron James in particular around what was the. I'm going back to the decision like I don't think it was gentler or more celebratory back then. Personally, I would also note with LeBron, I don't think this is get Bayless. Just get Bayless. Dan. It bothers him that everyone thinks he lies, right? That's an Internet meme.

[Pablo Torre]

Everybody you know on the Internet called me a liar all the time. So what am I now?

[Mina]

That is people roasting him online that to me suggests, like, LeBron isn't just turning on the TV, although Skip's not on TV anymore and saying, wow, they're being mean to me. I really believe the way he is being discussed on the Internet is a big part of what's affecting him here.

[Pablo Torre]

But I think this entire attempt to sort of isolate the variable is why this is an eternal, unending argument. Because Michael Jordan, by the way, pre Internet, right? So it's sort of like, okay, are we disentangling the Internet from what it is to be in the media? Which is really impossible to do at this point. And so I do want to focus in on something that Rich said at the end, which is that J.J. redick, of course, now LeBron's coach, my guy J.J. redick, and LeBron's show how this was a way forward. And if the argument is simply, we have oversaturated media, television and Internet with controversy and that sort of more salacious debate stuff, and there's room for great things that are underappreciated, like the appreciation of basketball as a skill as. As sort of a nerd, an art that nerds can appreciate and dissect, then absolutely, like, yeah, that is one way forward. The thing about the power that he is giving though to the media as a concept is also funny not just because of the Internet and the way that, of course, that has made all of this sort of this. This giant blob. It's because sports itself, if you talk to fans, is full of naturally occurring criticism. And most people forever will always be saying, that guy sucks. That guy's good. And we're not gonna be able to. To. To move the needle on that, Mina.

[Mina]

So just speaking not only from personal experience, but like today, Thursday, I started the morning, I started my Thursday mornings doing first take. And then at the end, I do NFL Live on NFL Live. We do breakdowns, we discuss trends, we get deep into matchups, we do X's and O's stuff. And it. It's. People seem to really like it. It does well. Some of the clips do well whatnot. However, if you walk into the average sports bar in America, two guys, right, they're going to be Arguing about whether Jalen hurts or Matt Stafford is more likely to choke, you know, and Sunday Night Football. I personally don't think those sorts of debates, which do reflect what Pablo's talking about, are inherently toxic. I think there's a vast spectrum here with regards to, like, the kind of things that are being discussed. There are things that are toxic and absurd. And this sort of connects back to our discussion at the top. I just think, like, we're painting with too broad a brush sometimes when we talk about sports media as a whole, as a Goliath.

[Dan]

We are. But I would say if we're going to speak in these generalities, I have generally found, taking the entire spectrum of human beings into account, that athletes are generally better at criticism than other human beings, at least in part because they're going over film room in their jobs where they're making a million different mistakes and the coaches are constantly criticizing them. And they're getting that criticism from people whose criticism they respect as informed as expertise and as greater than the people who are on television or the people like, even us. I think they're objecting to how ill informed it is when all you can do, all the information you got is, ah, you're a choker. And, and I understand how all of us, if we walked out into a community full of people outside of whatever show we did and they arrived with lazy criticisms, we'd object to that more than we would to good criticism.

[Pablo Torre]

What you're saying is a fair point, right? Like, would you ever expect somebody who was doing PhD level work to hear the criticism of somebody who can barely understand it on an elementary level and not feel justified resentment? And I think this is where the unfortunate reminder, the unfortunate caveat to all of this must be made, which is that this is the consequence of the biggest tent in America. Like, the whole point is that you actually want people with elementary level understandings of the sport that you have mastered to care and presume that they can do it, because that is actually the business you have chosen. It is not the business of media. It is the business of the spectacle. And Mina, that's just part of it. And I just don't think we can ever solve that frustration. It's actually part of why you get paid so much money.

[Mina]

Yeah, I agree with that. And I would also say I don't think Rich Kleiman is arguing in favor of more educated criticism. Dan. Like, I, I know that Rich and LeBron are two different. I don't want to.

[Dan]

Well, but, but, but when he's Talking about the JJ Redick and LeBron podcast, what he is clamoring for. There is an expertise of an elevated level when talking about sports.

[Mina]

Sure. But also saying, you know, why can't it be more like the Olympics? The Olympics is human interest stories. People who work for athletes, by the way, you know, now, especially now that they control a lot of the media around them, particularly have replaced a lot of the actual journalism being done with their own self produced docum winery shows, whatnot. They want public relations, which is fine. You know, like, there is obviously space for things that are made by people about themselves, which is what public relations really is. I don't think that critique is coming from a place of wanting, like from a value perspective so much as it is from a business perspective, if that makes sense.

[Pablo Torre]

The irony of Kevin Durant's agent being like, we need to be less online. It's like, dude, just call him up. Just call Kevin yourself.

[Mina]

He's just laughing, Pablo. He just finds it funny. He's not actually mad about anything he reads foreign.

[Pablo Torre]

The last topic today is a response, I think in some big picture way to the first two topics because there is a community online and this is a thriving community I didn't know about until I read this story. It is a group on Facebook that has over a million members. And there is another group, an offshoot of that group that has over a million members. I want to get the name exactly right because it is worth enshrining in this way. It is the Dull Men's Club on Facebook. And so this is a bunch of people who have been, I think, chewed up and spit out. It felt like on, on social media because there is a competitive arena where everybody's trying to be interesting, everybody's trying to post, as the article posits, the same photograph from Greece of, you know, the octopus dangling in the air. And you're all trying to be, you know, performatively fascinating. And the Doll Men's Club is like, hey, here's some photos of the lentils that I, that I was making. Here is my, my most boring hobby. Here is the lawn I mowed. And so I bring this to you guys because I, I, I think I am about to join the Doll Men's Club. I think I have qualifications. I'm curious what the dullest that you guys do might be. Dan, do you want to start?

[Dan]

Yeah, I will start, but I want to ask you guys a couple of questions here before we start. Do you guys fancy yourselves interesting? Like, are we self? Aware? Are we and are People in general self aware about whether they're dull or interesting or do most people think they're kind of dull or do most people think they're kind of interesting?

[Mina]

I'm not sure what is dull anymore to people. And a lot of this is because of the Internet, frankly, because similarly to this Dell Men's Club, you can find a community of people who think anything is fascinating. Like, for example, my probably most prevalent hobby is playing word games in crosswords. And I'll talk about it that much. But if I do ever post like a crossword score, I think that would seem to be dull. But because there's an audience for everything these days, it's not dull to everyone, I have found when I talk about such things. So I think I have actually lost sense of what qualifies as interesting.

[Pablo Torre]

That is a very political answer. The real answer that all of us have to give if we're being injected with truth serum is that we all think we're interesting. That's why we ask you to watch this. We're doing right now, like, let's be honest, like, if we are boring, you're not watching that unless you're into performative boringness. And the thing about this men's. This dull Men's Club is that it seems to be. And this is a word that was missing from the article, but seems to be. I think a real key aspect to this is that it's authentically dull. And Mina actually articulated it before in a, I think a specific way where she's not constantly posting about the things she does. I know every day, multiple times a day, to the point where I'm on a group chat with her and I'm like, not engaging with her. Like, screenshots of like, there was a point where Wordle was a thing and she was like on just like the ninth version of. I'm just like, I don't care about any of this. Actually don't.

[Mina]

And Mike Shore and Alan. So we're in this group chat where the three of us love word games and puzzles and Pablo does not. And during the height of the pandemic, we were all doing like 20 puzzles a day. We were doing Octortal was a big one. There was one above Octortal. We were playing this game where you guess a country purely based on its shape and sharing our results. This is what I had all day long. And Pablo apparently was bored out of his mind by our dullness.

[Pablo Torre]

It's horrible.

[Dan]

That's not dull, that's dorky. I don't That's a different classification.

[Pablo Torre]

I disagree. It was both. I think. It's not an either or. This is a yes. And it was. It was both.

[Dan]

Well, but I don't. I don't know how to answer this question because I don't think of puzzles as necessarily dull. Making lentil. Yeah, making lentil soup I don't find particularly interesting. I. I solicited my wife's help on this because I don't believe my governor is good. Because the nature of speaking for three and a half hours a day, you must find yourself fascinating. You must find yourself really interesting if you think that people should listen to your opinion for three and a half hours a day. And so she said that me watching the CBS Sunday Morning and I yelled at her because it is not dull. It's one of the great programs in.

[Pablo Torre]

America that's so aol of you. That's the most AOL news program that exists.

[Dan]

It's a great show, though. I'm not gonna.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just the oldest show that's ever agreed.

[Dan]

I'm not disagreeing with that. I happen to like the tranquil sounds for 90 seconds of a creek. And I'm not going to argue with you about it. You can have your own opinions about it. And I was thinking to myself, well, riding my bike and stuff, and I was gonna nominate that. But I stopped doing it when I, you know, ran into the street. A car door opened and I hit it and I fouled up my body in all sorts of ways. But that's not dull. And then I started a bunch of stretching and stuff that I have to do that I talk about too much to get my body realigned.

[Mina]

My husband's always talking about stretching. So boring to me.

[Dan]

Also dull. Yes, thank you. All of the things nominated by my wife as well. But I settled in on Beyond Royal Crush, which you guys have made fun of me. The mindless exercise of Royal Crush.

[Mina]

Wait, are you still playing Royal Crush? And how far have you advanced?

[Dan]

Occasionally? I am. I'm about at 8,000.

[Pablo Torre]

He's not a player. He just crushes royally.

[Dan]

That's right. That's right. In another way, I crush royally. I'm going to. You talk about old here.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Ms. Pac Man. I've got a machine and I love playing Ms. Pac Man. And I'm not going to apologize for.

[Mina]

Ms. Pacman machine in arcade.

[Pablo Torre]

He has a tabletop arcade. Ms. Pac man machine.

[Mina]

That's kind of cool. They have arcade in your house. Even your dull story, like buried and interesting and like, cool.

[Pablo Torre]

That's. That's still. It's still pretty interesting. I submit that my thing that I do all the time, every day, that I pretty much never post about, but sometimes, occasionally will allude to, is take care of my plants.

[Mina]

Oh, God. Nobody wants to hear about your.

[Pablo Torre]

No. Yes, they do.

[Mina]

No one wants to hear about.

[Pablo Torre]

You have. Yeah. Look at, look at this. This is the show that I host privately. It's called Repotting with Pablo. Debuted during the pandemic. Although I owned many plants before the pandemic, just for the record, here I have over 35 plants. I counted this morning. These are all today. The various kinds. Look. I can raise a fiddle leaf, fig. I can absolutely make sure a pothos can stretch its vines over all sorts of shelves in my apartment. I can go on and on about this stuff in asparagus.

[Dan]

This looks like something I'd see on my CBS Sunday MORNING show. This looks like something that I would devour on Sunday morning.

[Pablo Torre]

That's a money tree over there. That's sort of like craning its neck towards the sunlight.

[Dan]

I've got so many money trees in my house.

[Pablo Torre]

I need the best.

[Mina]

Okay. I need to ask my husband to come up with something for me because all of the dull interests you guys have brought up are things that my husband talks about that I find extraordinarily dull. Stretching plants, watches. I'm not trying to roast him, but when he. And like, when I hear two men talking about watches, I don't know if that fits into this category because. Is that dull? It's dull to me.

[Pablo Torre]

The thing about watches is that I don't. I've never worn a watch. But I will find myself because I am a man. Like, watching watch content.

[Mina]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And contemplate. Do I. Should I have a watch?

[Mina]

Sometimes I'll look at a watch, a video he's watching where people are talking about watches, and it honestly is the most boring content I can imagine that exists. I cannot fathom it.

[Dan]

I told everybody here the other day, this is going to shock you. All that when I came out of college. I look forward to the look on your face when I say this. That out of college, my original attire to sporting events early in my reporting career, suspenders and a pocket watch with the chain. With the chain going from my belt loop to my pocket. That's given to me by my grandfather. So be careful how much you make fun of that. But I figured you guys would enjoy that.

[Pablo Torre]

We're going to. We're going to have to search for photographic Evidence of this. Why? Why, why did. Did you want this to be your aesthetic?

[Dan]

I actually at the time, this will be funny to all of you, said to myself, you know what? I'm going to dress a little better than sports writers are reputed to dress classic better.

[Mina]

In my mind, he looks like a union busting oil tycoon.

[Pablo Torre]

He looks like. No, he looks like the Penguin from Batman. Like what is this?

[Mina]

Pablo and I have left out the most actual boring, which is just talking about anything related to our children.

[Dan]

Well, this is what I was. I was actually gonna ask you.

[Pablo Torre]

The best thing I do right now is apply to kindergarten. If you guys want all of the takes that I've never aired. But I got. Call me up sometime. I have so many opinions.

[Mina]

I was in New York, what was it, like a month ago or something? Pablo and we got together. You, me and Katie, Nolan and Shocker. Katie was late and as Pablo and I were sitting in the bar, Dan, we like speed ran kid for like 15 minutes because we knew Kaden. We didn't want to bore her with it. Like, I know all about Pablo applying to kindergarten. I know the kindergartens you apply to. I know your thought process. I know about even pop dance looks bored right now. I know. It's so boring. No, you don't hear this if you don't have kids.

[Dan]

No, it's great. It's great self awareness for you guys to have to get the parenting stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

Out in the beginning. Kindergarten. Have thoughts.

[Dan]

Me and Valerie went out to dinner with a couple who had kids and had to strategize beforehand how to not open that portal conversationally. And we strategized and failed. And then our evening.

[Mina]

No, no, no. It's not on you. It is on the people who have kids. Nobody wants to hear about your kids.

[Dan]

But I was just gonna, I was gonna ask you guys this when we started this conversation because I was going to say that some people might think that motherhood is boring, but I do not happen to think that motherhood is dull. But if you sat with me and started telling me for many years if you spent a lot of time telling me about your kids, I could see.

[Mina]

How others would find out who's boring. Would you like to hear about Nino's transition from two naps to one and how it's potentially affecting his sleep schedule at night and how perhaps we need to stretch his wake window a little bit longer because he's been waking up at 4am and then we don't wake up. Want him to come? We are trying to avoid co sleeping at all costs.

[Pablo Torre]

So we're not going never co. We.

[Mina]

Are letting him cry.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. At. At the end of every show, Mina, we say what we found out about on a show that is about finding stuff out Dan has left. Which is understandable because we've been talking about. About parenting for. Yeah, longer than I ever, ever intend to on a show that wants viewers. So what did you. What did you. What did you find out about today?

[Mina]

I found out that Dan apparently dressed it. Dressed like Boss Hogg as a young reporter. I'd like to see photos of this. Yeah. Ironic for somebody who was all about player empowerment that he dressed like someone who wanted to break up the players union. I'd like to dig more into that. How about you? What did you learn?

[Pablo Torre]

No, I found out that everything that Dan is now is the product of a hard pendulum swing directly away from what he initially tried to be. And also that that guy who Dan intimidated on the road, that Valerie saved him from going to jail over, is somebody I'd like to talk to. So, you know, you know, reach me.

[Mina]

Find out. Find that out.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a feeling that you may have been in the right. Just. Just a hunch. Just a hunch.

[Mina]

Follow me On Blue sky.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre finds out a Metal Arc Media production and we are produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tominello and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.