← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.
- [00:06]
B
And I think that would be fair. But the thing is, you're not paying.
- [00:09]
A
These quarterbacks right after this ad, you're.
- [00:14]
B
Listening to DraftKings Network. I have really enjoyed Dan's fashion pivot over the last year, personally.
- [00:34]
A
Agree. Hard agree.
- [00:36]
B
Yeah. Every time I see him, I think, wow, Dan, you're looking good.
- [00:40]
C
I can't believe what's happening here. It really is. Valerie has bought four pairs of pants and four shirts on the Internet. Two jackets, and everyone thinks it's a reinvention. And it's only because all I've worn for 15 years is skateboarder shorts and my brother's hats. Like, she's literally bought me four. Four collared shirts. And everyone considers it a reinvention and an intervention.
- [01:03]
B
He's like, do you see John Fetterman wearing the suit?
- [01:07]
A
Oh, for Netanyahu.
- [01:08]
B
Netanyahu.
- [01:09]
C
God. This is the thing. You put me.
- [01:11]
A
That's what this episode is.
- [01:12]
C
Fetterman, you got. You put me lumpy. Fetterman wearing sweats everywhere. I guess that who that is. It's who I was.
- [01:21]
B
When you praise Dan for his new look, he just takes it as a rebuke of his old look, which is correct.
- [01:27]
C
But wait a minute.
- [01:28]
A
Hold on. Wait, wait, wait.
- [01:29]
C
You fettermaned me. You fettermaned me.
- [01:32]
A
Wait, what's that sound? Huh? Wait, is that. Is that. Is that the sound of a trauma lurking inside of this new wardrobe? Is Dan sniffing his own emotional truffle? Do you miss the old Dan? New Dan?
- [01:48]
C
I do miss the comfort of that clothes.
- [01:51]
B
Wait, are you wearing. Because we've been talking. Are you wearing pants now instead of shorts?
- [01:56]
C
I am wearing pants.
- [01:58]
A
Hold on. We gotta validate this for the YouTube and DraftKings audience.
- [02:01]
B
Much bigger transformation. Wow.
- [02:03]
A
Yeah, look at this.
- [02:05]
C
Wow.
- [02:06]
B
Dance outdress me.
- [02:08]
A
Damn.
- [02:09]
C
Those are. How much did you wear those pants during the pregnancy?
- [02:15]
B
I thought you were gonna say the pandemic. I have a stack of about 15 pairs of gray sweatpants that I wear every day. Every day. When you see me on NFL Live, first take. And I'm wearing a blazer and, like, a face full of makeup, and I'm all done up. Sweatpants on the bottom every single day.
- [02:32]
C
That is so good. Mina. Mina. Listen, Pablo, this is great because when Mina gets to her first TV appearances, she has no clothing allowance, and that's brutal. That is brutal. If you've been on a business reporter's salary. And now Pablo, you're expected to look fashionable on TV television every day and different. That's a brutal thing to have. So she goes from that to, I'm sure a very good wardrobe that was complete that she, in true sportswriter fashion, used for about three months before realizing it's 15 pairs of bob Huggins pants the rest of the way.
- [03:07]
B
It's not that hard to dress well.
- [03:09]
C
There on TV every day. Every day for 250 days when you're on a business reporter's salary or whatever your first salary was at espn.
- [03:22]
A
None of us should be proud of our early television fits. I believe that if you were to find what Mina looked like in her first set of TV appearances, what I looked like and what Dan looked like. I don't know what Dan looked like.
- [03:34]
C
Oh no, this is what Mina and I look like. You sort of like you guys do.
- [03:37]
A
It at the same time.
- [03:39]
C
I would love to take you guys on a tour of Mike Wilbon's closet where I am sure we will find four jackets that that I bought at a nearby Macy's and just wore every summer on PTI because I did not have any earthly idea how to dress.
- [03:56]
B
The biggest issue with me, early television, Mina, but particularly even early ESPN which wasn't even that long ago, like 2016 is not my clothes, it was my hair and makeup.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah. How would you describe your sort of aesthetic? Because I don't want to scream out.
- [04:13]
B
Is how I describe it.
- [04:15]
A
That's what I was looking for.
- [04:17]
B
Because I would just say yes to whatever. I'll find some pictures.
- [04:20]
A
Here's a great screenshot of Mina doing like a Bloomberg appearance and it does look like she is.
- [04:25]
B
Oh, the C span.
- [04:27]
A
Yeah, the C span one. Oh, we gotta find that. Hold on.
- [04:30]
B
I look like Robert Smith from the Cure.
- [04:33]
C
God almighty, Mina, look at this. What is happening here? This girl, this woman, forgive me, seems sad and angry. It looks like a dark teenage period. You're rebelling against your parents.
- [04:47]
B
I used to let them put liner on the entire eye. That was a mistake.
- [04:51]
C
An undercurrent of gothic to it. A little bit of Marilyn Manson, little.
- [04:56]
A
Goth, little some Daria, if you get that reference.
- [04:59]
B
I'll take that. Yeah, I'd rather be Daria.
- [05:02]
C
Yeah, she didn't like. She didn't like the Marilyn Manson reference.
- [05:05]
A
Definitely not smiling.
- [05:07]
B
Oh no.
- [05:07]
A
Is what you need to know about this photo if you're just listening to it. I love, by the way, the Chiron showdown on the railroad. Mina Kimes with hard hitting railroad based investigative journalism. That she is very, very unhappy about.
- [05:22]
B
I'm very proud of that piece. It was about how the railroad industry had become an oligopoly and they were basically price fixing.
- [05:29]
A
I love the idea of some ESPN executive being like, this person needs to argue on first take.
- [05:36]
C
Gotta get.
- [05:36]
A
You need railroad lady. We gotta get ranked. Josh Allen. So I suppose, Mina, we should begin with the story that you brought us. Because I want to begin with, I guess, an acknowledgment of the biggest story in the world somehow, which is thankfully not anything related to how we look, but rather how someone else does.
- [06:12]
B
Yeah, looks. Visuals. The importance of visuals to a campaign, to electability. And whether or not they do matter, I think is sort of the subject at hand here. I am talking about the election, but in a pretty narrow way. The two articles that I sent you guys are both about Kamala Harris being memed. One was in Vox by Rebecca Jennings. The headline could Kamala Harris's Brat Summer Win her the Presidency?
- [06:46]
A
Can we test Dan on whether Dan knows what any of these things mean?
- [06:50]
B
Dan, do you know what brat Brad is?
- [06:53]
C
I know it only in the context of this article that you have sent me, which is that she memes well, because she is of pop culture, but I don't know the specifics.
- [07:02]
A
No, that's enough.
- [07:03]
B
You don't know what it means to be Brad or who Brad is or. I think this is that. Actually we're not just. I'm not saying that to make fun of Dan. I think it matters to this conversation.
- [07:11]
A
Yes.
- [07:11]
B
Does this matter? It's a reference to Charlie xcx who the second. Basically, the same day that Kamala Harris was announced, or rather that Joe Biden stepped down or said he wasn't going to seek reelection, endorsed her. Charlie XCS xcx, Pardon me, who? Dan is a young pop star who is very big this summer with this Brat album. Now I sound like an old person. Anyways, she said Kamala Harris is Brett, which is what sort of kicked this off. There's an article also in the New York Times by Amanda Hess called the triumphant comeback of the Kamala Harris meme. So. But both these articles kind of get at the same thing, which is over the last week, and this is all moving very quickly, Kamala Harris has been embraced by meme culture, by Zoomers, by TikTok in a way we have not seen with a Democratic candidate. Certainly not the case with Joe Biden. Was not the case with Hillary Clinton. And before we get into whether or not that matters, both of these articles Kind of examine why it's happening. And I think what they get at, and I think this is really important, is the reason why it is happening, the reason why it is successful is that it's ground up like the Harris campaign, which has tentatively embraced some of these memes, are not creating them. These are not focus grouped. None of it has been deliberate. Rather, it's young people on all these platforms seeing something in her. And this article gets at kind of what that might be and deciding to make videos and dances and memes and jokes. She laughs a lot. There's videos of her dancing. She is. Has certain qualities that lend themselves to the format. But I found that very interesting, Pablo, as a start, because I think they do hit on something very important, which is you can't force a meme.
- [09:11]
A
Yes, I want to. Before we get to whether this impacts the actual election, I think this very question has been something that Democrats have been thirsting for for so long. And I do want to take us all on a tour of just like what is happening. Because the multimedia part of this is, as Mina says, being done by, you know, effectively her subreddit, her fans, like this organized online community that has suddenly come together. Online democracy, a grassroots campaign by people who tweet things like, quote, why did I stay up till 3am making a Von Dutch Brat Coconut tree edit featuring Kamala Harris and why can't I stop watching it on repeat? And it sounds like this, you think.
- [09:51]
B
You just fell out of a coconut tree. You insisted in the context of all in which you live and what came before you.
- [10:06]
A
And the thing that we need to remember is what previous attempts at this looked like, because this is effectively, this is. This is Kamala Harris crowd surfing on an online wave that she only incidentally created. Right? And this is what it looks like when Hillary Clinton tried to tap into viral meme culture.
- [10:33]
B
I'm just chilling in Cedar Rapids.
- [10:36]
A
So, you know, there's that this is.
- [10:39]
C
Interesting from a number of angles to me, including because we have spent a lot of time over the last 12 days declaring this is over both ways, right? Because this is the. The assassination attempt. Everybody said, oh, the election is over. And now all of a sudden, Biden doing what he chose to do and aging out makes it so that Kamala Harris is in a position now. And I can't believe that I'm saying this to not just be the young candidate by a lot, because this isn't just young and old, but for the Democratic Party to have a not boring candidate, a not stiff candidate, a Candidate that is, if not more presidential, at least more human and in the currency of the day, more entertaining than boring.
- [11:28]
A
Well, Mina, the thing about all of this is that Kamala Harris's main weakness had been retail politics.
- [11:35]
B
Yeah.
- [11:35]
A
Her ability to relate and connect to people in an extemporaneous way. And this has been this amazing gift from the heavens where she has become a figure that is likable through no actual intent of her own. Like what she is being cast as, essentially. This is a. Not my quote. I'll just. I'll cite it, though. She's your zanned out aunt. And that somehow resonates with people who are like, oh, I like her now.
- [12:03]
B
Yeah, there's like a little bit of an ironic remove here, because part of the reason she struggled back in 2020, some of it was what you talked about, the retail politics, the fact, you know, she's wasn't great on the campaign trail.
- [12:17]
A
No.
- [12:18]
B
Just didn't connect with people in a certain way. But also it felt like, you know, she was kind of like the wrong candidate for the moment. She is perceived as being, you know, her whole angle coming up. Her career was tough on crime, sort of center left. Obviously, that's been changed. The view on that has changed now. And I think that what was a political weakness at the time now seems to be actually, this is. You know, those qualities make her a better candidate for this moment. But what we're talking about here is not that. It's the fact that despite that this phenomena has allowed young people and the left to sort of enjoy her with, like, a level of ironic remove, if I'm, you know, reading this correctly.
- [13:05]
A
Yes.
- [13:07]
B
I think what we're seeing is some of it is due to her innate qualities, which you've kind of alluded to the fact that she's just straight up more entertaining. But I think all of it is also. There's something strategic about it, or rather, I wouldn't call it cope, but it's like a way for the young left in particular to embrace her without embracing her. It's almost like it's not like earnest. Does that make sense?
- [13:31]
A
Right. No, it's actually key, Dan. It's key. And I think there's a parallel, weirdly, to, like, how you do your show, Dan, where it's like you're not entirely in on the best jokes of your show. You're meant to actually be the subject of them, but also consenting to it. And I think the. That it's that ironic distance between a lot of people are talking about you and making fun of you, and it's helpful to what you do, and it makes you more likable, but you're also not in control of it. And when you begin to exert control, you begin to lose what feels like the whole point of this, which is that you are being laughed at and laughed with, is my diagnosis.
- [14:13]
C
Oh, but it's what. It's what you have to allow in the differences between the generations, though, because what Biden is to this generation is a fossilized artifact. Kamala is still old, but old, kind of cool. Accepted by younger people who are the ones who make everything popular. But they make everything popular, right? They decide. Young people. I know that the demo that everybody wants is the money between 35 and 54. But on popularity, young people decide, and I don't get to decide for them. No one my age does. No one Kamala's age does. And so that she exists in this. In between. Between where Trump and Biden are ancient. She's the cool parent or something closer to a parent I can relate to.
- [15:02]
B
Well, Dan, you're cutting to, I think, the next sort of point of discussion here and what these pieces get at, and I think what a lot of us are trying to wrap my minds around, our minds around, which is politically, does any of this matter? Right? Like, okay, different question.
- [15:14]
A
A different question.
- [15:15]
B
A different question. So I think we all agree, and it would be hard not to. This person resonates in this medium in a way that neither of the candidates. No Democratic candidate in recent history has. Great. Doesn't matter. I think it does something that has really frustrated me over the course of this election cycle. And, like, just kind of reading Twitter, which key note is there's this, like, very large, maybe just very vocal portion of liberal online liberal left who are just obsessed with the New York Times, right? They're like, oh, if the New York Times, why didn't they call on Trump to drop out? It's a double standard. If this sentence had been written a little bit differently, everything would be different. And that, to me, strikes me as unbelievably wrongheaded because I believe probably 99% of the people who read the New York Times are already just going to vote democratically. They're preaching to the choir over there. I mean, you can quibble with some of their coverage and the tone of it, and certainly in 2016, pardon me, that was the case, but there was a real problem. But in 2024, at this moment, I think visual memetic culture has more influence over Certainly young people, but a lot of the voters that the Democratic Party has been leaking. And I do think this matters. I think it matters much more now than it did four years ago. And it definitely matters more than it did eight years ago when obviously TikTok wasn't even a thing.
- [16:53]
C
Are either of you sort of troubled by the idea that it shouldn't matter? That being presidential, whatever the hell that means, shouldn't come down to. Are you likable? Shouldn't come down to things that aren't substantively moral and are just like, ah, young people like to make memes about it.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah.
- [17:17]
B
I mean, I really. I. Yes. Do I wish we were a nation that voted on policy? Yeah. But when I see people, like, so frustrated with the fact that policy or actual, like, concrete achievements of the administration aren't moving the needle, I just feel like, well, you can't keep railing at the cloud and wanting things to be different or blaming the media and the rest. You have to meet people where they are.
- [17:45]
A
Right. The caution, though, I have when it comes to this is that a bunch of why this is going viral. Also, the other ingredient is that it feels like there is a, you know, again, the term of art that is just everywhere. Right. There's a vibe shift. It was deeply unfun. Now it's super fun. Here is Kamala Harris dancing in a parade. Here's Kamala Harris smiling, loving life. And everybody sort of celebrating how now this side gets to feel like they're winning, even though the election, of course, is months away. I do think that social media has the capacity to be more of a cul de sac, where you sort of, like, spin around it with people that are already there, as opposed to an on ramp to, like, normie culture. And I, I just. The. The way that I say that and the reason I say that, Mina, is because the midterms, it was. It was a thing that people predicted a red wave for because it seemed like the right was dominating the online discourse and they went so in on their version of memes. And I feel like it was just not resonating with the broader non online populace. And I just caution us to not confuse that. This population is sort of cordoned off from that.
- [19:02]
B
You're alluding, you're alluding to the phenomena of, like, actually only like, 100,000 people watched mad Men and everybody watches the Big Bang Theory, but everybody talks about succession. I hear you, but I actually think. I think that is true of Twitter. I think Twitter is a very small platform that has its importance over Emphasized because all of us media people live on it. I am telling you, many young people I have encountered in my life get their news from TikTok. And I know that's a scary sentence. And it's not just young people, by the way, but I think that other platforms have more news influence right now than we know Twitter.
- [19:44]
C
I believe the numbers on Twitter are 7% of the world at whatever its height was. 7% of the world is on Twitter, and 7% of anything isn't very much. But let me ask you guys this question about what this shift is in vibes, because I do think this is possible. I'm not totally sure that what is resonating is hopefulness. It's just an ounce better than hopelessness. And therefore people will turn it into dance ocracy instead of democracy. Like, let's just have some fun with this, because Biden wasn't going to ever feel like any of this to young people. It was never. So I don't know if it's necessarily optimism. It's just a reprieve from pessimism for five seconds.
- [20:32]
B
I'll push back on that a little bit, I think, yes, certainly there is a thinness to what we're talking about, the videos, the memes and whatnot, but there is something very substantive that I do think resonates with the clearness of communication, which obviously that's, you know, that's more than a vibe shift. Personally, as someone who watched the last debate and I think experienced it the way most people did, seeing a candidate.
- [21:00]
A
Who, by texting your friends and not tweeting about it in terms that you were uncomfortable with saying in public until.
- [21:06]
B
Saying, maybe now texting you. My husband just had to take our baby out of the room because my anxiety was so bad. I do think there is something very. That is when we're talking about visual culture, videos, whatever things that are circulating, being memed, it's not just dances. It's like a person who can campaign and articulate positions. And I think that is something that is very real and that is not thin.
- [21:32]
A
Yeah. The rain on this parade is simply that the thing that makes this magical, which is that Kamala Harris did not do this herself, leaves a question unanswered, which is what happens when she tries to do it herself, when she actually does take again, I am so much more optimistic, dad, about Kamala Harris on a debate stage, on a podium, behind a podium, on a microphone, any of the settings. She's just clearly the better choice than Biden. We're on the record, I think, believing that. But the cynicism and the pessimism is simply this has all happened in the course of a week. And there is going to be another thing that feels seismic that is going to put this so far in the rearview mirror that we will have probably forgotten if we ever learned what brat actually means.
- [22:21]
C
If this knocks off an assassination attempt in 10 days, as the it's over on the election that everyone likes to shout. If it, if it can be that flimsy, I expect it to change again in the next four months.
- [22:47]
A
We're going to attempt to keep this train going by talking about likability in a different sense, although a related one, as we continue to make Dan explain terms that he's learning online.
- [22:59]
C
And just give me a second here because I have my. I have a bunch of different papers here and I thought, okay, hold on just a sec, give me a second.
- [23:07]
A
For those who are wondering, of course, Dan printed out or had it printed, undoubtedly for him, the articles that we read on our phones.
- [23:14]
C
Why shouldn't I get it printed out so I can handle what it is that I'm dealing with? What is wrong with wanting a physical copy in my hand of is Riz the secret to getting ahead at work? Whether you call it charisma, charm, or magnetism, some people seem like naturals. Good news, it can be learned. Riz is the phrase. Because everybody's way too busy to just say charisma. The two extra syllables are difficult. So just throw a couple of Z's in there and call it Riz. But when I was reading this, and the reason that I wanted to share it with you is because the idea of learning charisma as a leadership technique, to be someone who is better as a CEO, seems awfully calculated and something I'm not capable of. And I don't know how you guys measure charisma, but in reading this, it made me realize why I'm not a very good leader. I cannot find fake charisma to try and fake passion my way through things. I try to go with authenticity and hope that people will want to follow that.
- [24:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. There are a couple of the reason why it's funny also that this was in the Wall Street Journal is because it is sort of like Riz for adults. It's like, how can you increase your Riz? And there are some tips, Mita, that are very, I think they're on one level, they're reasonable. On the other hand, I don't think this is what the young people were thinking about. When they called it Riz. But it was like, remember the birthdays of your employees. Remember life events. Make sure to send them notes. There was something about, like, tenting your hands. Hold on. There's something about, like, listening like this. Yes. Yes. There's like, so much Riz in tenting your hands together. A slow triple nod is what the Wall Street Journal advises shows people that you're listening. So 1, 2, 3. Yep. Not 2, not 1, 3. Steeple. Positioning your hands means calm and presence. Try coming up with one question you're known for. Not a canned hokey icebreaker Bina, but something casual and simple that reflects your actual interests.
- [25:22]
B
So you know there is nothing more off putting than someone asking you a question and then hearing that same person ask that question to anyone else. That doesn't tell me you have Riz. That tells me you're a sociopath.
- [25:34]
A
Reading anything good was the question they suggested.
- [25:37]
C
Reading anything good? Nice and open ended. Yes. I don't probably need to tell you if I asked that question in our environment, how nobody would be able to answer it.
- [25:46]
A
Right.
- [25:47]
C
My father actually does this move and gets away with charming charisma that is flimsy and, you know, was maddening to our entire family when anyone he would meet, he would just hit with a version of how's the family? Even though he doesn't know any of the family members. That's so much better than are you reading anything good? Because it suggests an intimate knowledge that he cares that you're married or have kids or that your family is involved in your life in any way. And he doesn't.
- [26:22]
B
He's definitely asked me that, by the way. No. Pretty much every time I interact with him. Such a good move.
- [26:28]
C
Such a good move.
- [26:29]
B
First of all, this article is amazing because it starts off by quoting a guy named Mike Rizzo, who is, of course head of marketing.
- [26:38]
C
That's right.
- [26:39]
B
Do you think. Do you think the article worked backwards from that? The author Rather get me.
- [26:44]
C
Get me somebody whose last name is the first word in Riz.
- [26:48]
B
I think the question I have is what does charisma actually look like in the workplace? Because I don't think it looks like tending your hands at the table or sending handwritten notes. In fact, I actually think the handwritten notes thing is, like, pretty. It's the act of. It's kind, it's thoughtful, it's strategic. Perhaps it doesn't strike me as someone having inherent or natural charisma. I guess it's a tip on how to replicate it. If you don't have it. I think it's the same thing whether it's in the workplace or elementary school. It is that same quality where some people have a draw, a magnetism, where other people just like to be around them. And when you try to characterize it, I think it's impossible personally.
- [27:40]
C
And taught, it can't be taught either. I don't believe that this is something that I don't believe that I'm going to find. A lot of people in the history of us working in this industry, have you ever had what you would consider a charismatic boss? Have any of you? I. I think John Skipper might qualify, but I don't know how many. I don't know how many others I've had in 35 years doing this.
- [28:05]
A
I do think that teaching it, which is the premise of this article, is like you too can learn how to be more charismatic. That does also feel contrary to something that is already a through line in this show today, which is so much of this is looking like you're actually not trying to do it. Like charisma to me implies like coolness as a concept implies that you are effortlessly naturally this way. And this is such a mechanical, a mechanical thing that makes me reflect on like to whatever extent that I do things like triple nod or you know, try to ask people how they're doing or bring them into any conversation. To what extent am I more sociopathic than of course I realized? Because there is this thing that is alluded to in this article that I was actually watching. There's a different TikTok. There's this Asian dude is a real estate guy and he tapes phone calls, sales calls. And one of his big tips is something that I've seen before in politics, which is called mirroring, where you're just trying to feed the person you're talking to whatever it seems like they want. In fact, sometimes their own voice. You are mirroring. You're like adopting an accent. I once interned actually for a political candidate who I. I was in his apartment. I'll keep this anonymous for obvious reasons. I was in his apartment like doing like stupid manual labor and listening to him do a radio interview. And this guy does not have a southern accent, but he summoned one on the phone talking to like this radio host in the South. And I was like, oh, this is. There is something that feels so both strategic and effective in ways. What?
- [29:40]
C
Well, I'm asking our producers right now to get Mina Kimes southern accent from our show yesterday. I don't think. And she didn't want me to do it because she saw we'll find it.
- [29:52]
B
And it's a deep fake. There's no way it's real.
- [29:54]
C
She doesn't believe. She thinks it was altered by us. And it was not altered by us. This was actually Mina talking on our show. But it sounded like something out of the Paul Fine Bomb show, and I.
- [30:05]
B
Think that would be fair. But the thing is, you're not paying these quarterbacks.
- [30:10]
C
Whoa, that's the right response, Pablo. That is the right response to that. You don't. That doesn't make any sense. If I told you right now, Pablo, I gave you context. What does this person look like visually? What does this human being look like? Who speaks like this?
- [30:26]
B
I.
- [30:27]
A
Okay, you're like, what's that, a chicken horn? Foghorn Leghorn?
- [30:31]
B
No.
- [30:32]
A
Oh, Ryan Kelly.
- [30:33]
B
Brian Kelly, the LSU coach.
- [30:34]
C
It's a great night to be a tiger. I'm here with my family.
- [30:40]
B
Family.
- [30:41]
A
Family.
- [30:41]
B
The family.
- [30:42]
A
Family.
- [30:43]
B
Okay, so I don't think that's. I think that's been digitally altered, but whatever. I'm not here to quibble with Dan's fake news operation. I have been told that not that I'm a chameleon, per se, but that I do change a little bit in different group settings in, like, if I'm around the, you know, former players and maybe talk. Speak a little bit broier.
- [31:12]
C
If I'm around.
- [31:13]
B
Wait, what?
- [31:15]
A
What are some.
- [31:15]
B
Bro.
- [31:16]
A
Yeah. Sir, wait a minute, wait a minute. Do you realize what?
- [31:18]
C
Just wait. Do you realize bro Pablo Appropriator is what you're looking for there? But what would you say to what I'm about to say, Pablo? Which is. That's one way to describe charisma. Somebody who, in every workplace that she finds herself in, can put on a camouflage chameleon, per se mask and make herself more popular, more likable.
- [31:45]
B
I'm not gonna apologize for being naturally popular. In fact, if I am this way, it's probably because I lived in so many different places growing up because my dad was in the Air Force. So if you don't like it, you don't support the troops.
- [32:00]
A
Oh, this is Ray. This is Mina. Mina is actually. Mina is now on the stump. Another lectern of sorts.
- [32:07]
B
I actually did find that that always helped me as a reporter, Pablo, Being able to sort of not change my personality, but relate to different people because I've had such a varied biography.
- [32:18]
A
Yeah, being. Being unclear ethnically has been an aid to me as I try to plausibly be from lots of different places, people not familiar with who I actually am. I do think that being Look.
- [32:31]
B
I.
- [32:31]
A
Think what that reveals, right, is like a conscious or unconscious desire to be liked and to be approved of. And I of course, embody this in ways that make me uncomfortable. Can you relate to people who are at opposite ends of all sorts of spectra? I. Yes. If that is. If that is Riz. I can't even say that word without thinking inside myself. I apologize. I cannot code switch into plausibly saying Riz.
- [32:58]
B
Do I have the most riz of this trio? Do we all agree?
- [33:01]
C
Oh, for sure.
- [33:02]
B
Is that where I came down?
- [33:03]
C
For sure. But this does not I do declare.
- [33:06]
A
That Mina Khan has the most riz of all of them.
- [33:08]
C
Us. This does not mean that you are maximum Riz. It just means that you're not hopelessly unri the way that he and I are.
- [33:30]
A
So to complete this trilogy of of stories in which we wonder, are we. I do want to go to a subreddit. Am I? Because there is a dilemma that I want us to weigh in on as ethicists. I'll just begin to read it and I'll stop and you guys can chime in with your observations as I go through this quote. My parents gave me 15 year old male an old fashioned name. Arthur. It's my grandpa's middle name. He hates it and never ever uses it. But my parents wanted to honor him. Mom specifically. And she decided Arthur was perfect because it was vintage unlike grandpa's first name. I hated my name always. Sometimes I got teased for having a grandpa name. Not as much anymore because old names are being used more for younger kids. When I was younger it got really bad. My friends helped me come up with a nickname to use instead. It's Dex. When I meet people I tell them my name is Dex. Teachers call me Dex. My friends and everyone at school calls me Dex. Neighbors call me Dex. My dad calls me Dex. So does my grandpa. But my mom, she is really mad that I use Dex all of the time now. She argued that Artie would be better. As juvenile as that is. I told her that's not any better than Arthur. Mom said Arthur looks so much better than Dex on documents at work. I told her she can change her name to Arthur then. So I'll pause just to reflect on Arthur slash Dex's dilemma here. I wonder if you guys can relate to what's happening so far.
- [34:55]
C
Dex is better than Arthur. It's not. It's not a real name. It's Dex. I don't know that anyone. Do you know anyone or have you any ever known anyone named Dex feels.
- [35:07]
A
Like a dinosaur in a cartoon?
- [35:09]
C
This is literally the first time I have considered whether your name is yours or whether it belongs to your parents. When does it become yours? I had not considered this as a thought before reading this story. The idea that if you're trying to honor a loved one through this name, when does it become yours? When can you have autonomy over decks?
- [35:29]
B
We thought about this when we were deciding what to name our child. Not just like, specifically. I mean, not like, you know, do we want to honor a relative or whatnot, but how do we balance choosing a name we like with trying to anticipate whether or not the kid likes being named that, if that makes sense. Because, Pablo, you now socialize with a lot of parents of young children in the year 2024. You live in a city, you hobnob with cultural elites, which invariably means you encounter some pretty stupid names. That is a thing that is happening a lot these days. I will not name the names of the babies that I can.
- [36:11]
A
I can I can I name a baby for you guys that I met recently? And we're gonna bleep it because I'm afraid of this baby's parents watching this show.
- [36:17]
B
I have an outrageous one. Tell me yours. No, stop.
- [36:23]
C
1X100%.
- [36:24]
A
100% real. One of Violet's classmates is I hope one. I hope to God it's 1x. I had to meet a and act like that was not a thing I should be laughing at.
- [36:41]
B
It's tough. Nino, who's my kid.
- [36:45]
A
Our.
- [36:45]
B
My nanny was telling me that. So he's very food motivated, shall we say? He is big. He eats a lot. He will do anything for food. And there was a little boy who had a lollipop. And Nino is much younger than him. And he was crawling towards him. And then Annie was like, careful, he's going to take it away. And the other kid's nanny was like, no, it's just a baby. She's like, I warned you. And Nino went, bam, right? Takes it. So she tells me that, and I'm like, ooh, I'm really worried. I'm like, I don't want him to have these kinds of habits where he thinks he can take things from other children. And then she's like, yeah, I know. And I told him, like, leave alone. And I was like, nah, that's fine. You take kid named deserves it.
- [37:26]
A
Oh.
- [37:26]
B
So the story won't hit without the name being revealed.
- [37:29]
A
But I should quote. I could continue to quote Dex slash Arthur because he's arguing with mom. Mom says, quote, that my name is fashionable now. Parentheses, like I care. And that I shouldn't take people named Ryder, Sonny, Bryson and Indigo seriously. I told her not to insult my friends names. She told me not to insult her dad had to step in and told mom to stop. Mom said I was fighting with my own mother over a nickname and it shows how disrespectful I am. Am I the asshole?
- [38:03]
C
Mom is right when she says Arthur looks better on work documents. She's not wrong on. On that front.
- [38:11]
B
I also think Arthur, like if. If it was a. If the mom had given him a stupid name, I would side with him. But Arthur is a totally normal name that you can. It has a million permutations. It's not an embarrassing name either. And it's. It is kind of trendy, honestly.
- [38:29]
C
But you are allowed. You're at 18, right? You're. You can discard. It dishonors your grandfather, it dishonors your mother. But at 18 years old, you are allowed. The move of changing your name to Dex because you don't want someone else's name burdens on you.
- [38:47]
A
So I should. I should say I should disclose something that I have not disclosed on this show before and really not even in like public, is that I did not go by Pablo until high school.
- [38:57]
B
Really.
- [38:57]
A
So I threw off the shackles of my nickname. I was nicknamed because my dad is Pablo. PB is what my parents family calls me. P period, B period. That is what they still call me. That is what all my classmates in pre K, kindergarten, first grade, second grade through eighth grade called me. And yes, hi. And I. I got to freshman year of high school and I was like, I can't. I can't have people thinking my name is pp. And I bailed on my entire identity.
- [39:32]
C
Really?
- [39:33]
B
Yeah.
- [39:34]
A
Hi, I'm PB Story.
- [39:37]
C
You could. You didn't have the strength. You didn't have the riz. To be able to carry the. The ability to carry yourself beyond the shackles of your name.
- [39:45]
A
I'll get comments sometimes on Instagram from like my grade school classmates calling me that. And I'll delete them.
- [39:50]
C
Oh, still. So there are scars there still.
- [39:53]
B
It's just. I don't want.
- [39:54]
A
I just don't. I. I. Yeah.
- [39:55]
B
PP is not cool.
- [39:57]
A
So, I mean, now you.
- [39:59]
B
In high school, sometimes people called me MK but like, this was. People who didn't grow up watching south park wouldn't understand. Okay. But they would do it like that. And that was cool. But I had Riz I.
- [40:13]
A
No one ever made fun of Mina. That was not a thing that.
- [40:16]
B
I mean very cool. Like you weren't cool in high school. I think this cuts to something though that we were kind of talking about with Dan's new look, which is you have to pick certain points in your life when you are empowered to reinvent yourself. So I want to reassess my judgment. I don't think Arthur is a bad name. However, I do think when a child becomes an adult, if they want to go buy something else, that's fine. In fact, going to college is the perfect time to reinvent yourself. It's when you can start wearing leather jackets or go by a different name or pretend like you know something has changed. I also applaud Dan's.
- [41:05]
C
People can change. Look at this video.
- [41:07]
B
Look at this.
- [41:07]
A
Stop being an investigative railroad journalist and.
- [41:10]
C
So that you sports.
- [41:12]
B
I don't even look this bad in the video. It's just this still that somehow has made it to the Internet.
- [41:17]
C
There's just an undercurrent of despondence on your face. And now having the context of it's not just your first television appearance, but the railroad industry is after you. I just imagine a lot of men from the 1910s and black and white talkies who tied women like you to railroad tracks back in those days making you look like that.
- [41:42]
B
I am unburdened by everything that exists in my past.
- [41:47]
A
I'm team Arthur, Team Dex.
- [41:50]
C
I don't want to talk about anything other than her fat baby Nino bullying everybody in the neighborhood and stealing their food like, and, and. And coming with parental warnings.
- [42:05]
A
There was a term. There's a. There was the unhoused of hungry that Mina used to describe Nina Nino. What is it? Use food. Food.
- [42:14]
B
He's food motivated. Food motivated. Dog training term.
- [42:18]
A
What the hell are you doing?
- [42:18]
C
Same.
- [42:19]
A
What is that? Yeah.
- [42:22]
C
What does that mean? Food motivated? That's just living. It's just Tuesday. What do you mean food motivated? Yeah, food motivated is lovely.
- [42:32]
B
It's just. It's a term you use like when you're training dogs, like how do you get the dog to say how do you get the dog roll over? Well, if the dog is food motivated, you know that you can use treats to get them to do those things.
- [42:41]
C
There can't be many dogs that aren't food motivated. Right? There can't be many.
- [42:46]
A
I can't wait for 15 year old Nino to log on to Am I the on Reddit and pose a question of. My mom trained me using dog treats. Am I.
- [42:57]
B
The.
- [42:58]
C
Where did you land Mina? On. On choosing a name, because Nino's an unusual name. Choosing a name that you thought he would like, even though he doesn't have formed thoughts yet.
- [43:10]
B
So we wanted an attorney. So I. While I am unburdened by my past looks, I was somewhat burdened by the fact that people have mispronounced my name my entire life. So a big priority for me was a name that is easy to spell and say one unintentional side effect is we live in la, so a lot of people think his name is Nino. But that said Nino, we wanted. My husband's Italian. I wanted an Italian name, and I got. This is actually a little bit unfortunate. I got the name from the Elena Ferrante books. I don't know if either of you guys have read those, but there's a character.
- [43:55]
A
Read any good books recently?
- [43:58]
B
They're really good, actually. I think the first one was just named. The Times picked it as their best book of the 2000s.
- [44:04]
A
That's right. They ranked the top books of the.
- [44:05]
B
Century, My brilliant friend. Yeah. There's a character named Nino in the books. He's one of the main characters, and he's a total. This is not a spoiler. Total boy. So my only hope is that my Nino never reads the books, even though I did get the name idea from the books.
- [44:21]
C
It does delight me, though, that you would go with the. Really. It's a flavorful name with a lot of thought behind it and that people in Los Angeles would just think that the Enye is missing and are just thinking that his name is Boy.
- [44:37]
B
Boy.
- [44:37]
C
Nino. Boy. You named your boy boy?
- [44:42]
B
That's right. That's right. Same boy.
- [44:44]
A
Also kind of sounds like Nick and Mina came up with a name that was just their two names.
- [44:49]
B
Yeah. That's another unfortunate side effect that people have.
- [44:53]
C
How was your name mispronounced, Mina? How was your name perpetually mispronounced? Were people calling you Mina?
- [45:00]
B
Well, a lot of people just think, say, Nina for some reason, even though obviously it starts with an M, and then Mina. Minna. Yeah. It got to the point where. And maybe this is another. I don't know if this is Riz, but when teachers, like substitute teachers, would mispronounce it, I just didn't bother to correct them because it didn't really feel worth it to me to assert my own name.
- [45:25]
A
Yeah.
- [45:25]
C
That is a special kind of passive. I didn't think to speak up on my name.
- [45:32]
A
My name Dan. If I realized that when I switched from pb To Pablo, I was really signing up to be Pedro. One in every three times. I might have reconsidered my decision.
- [45:43]
B
Same thing. Yeah. It's like people. It's like that. You see the first letter and the last letter, right? And you're. I get.
- [45:49]
A
I get the gist. You're right, Pedro. Yeah. Just. Just clap, by the way. Just classic Dan privilege.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah.
- [45:58]
A
Because Dan coasting through life just being a Dan.
- [46:01]
C
That's right. That was my father's wish for me. He wanted to call me Luis for my grandfather. He was thinking about calling me Gonzalo, but he didn't want me suffer the racism, so he just hit me with a Dan. And then I had to hire him 45 years later because my show wasn't Hispanic enough on ESPN that was trying to grab that demo.
- [46:22]
B
He was your. Your human N. Look, I would.
- [46:25]
C
That's right. He would be my human Eny. And incidentally, Pablo Torre would have been able to move down here and do the show with just me and him if he had been Pedro Torres, my Latin compadre.
- [46:52]
A
So what do we find out today, guys? At the end of Pablo Torre finds out a show about finding things out, Dan is exhausted by the premise of how we end every episode. Dan.
- [47:00]
C
It's not just that I'm exhausted by it. I'm also reeling from the fact that just like. Like that there are so many places that you guys are capable these days of mocking me that I don't expect to see coming. And the idea that I would have physical papers in front of me and you would now make me feel self conscious about the fact that I'm reading things on physical paper instead of reading it on my phone. I'm just learning that this is an insecurity of mine and that you guys will not waste an opportunity to find a hole in my game that makes me feel even more older than I am.
- [47:33]
A
I found out that Dan tried to seem cooler and younger by using the phrase hole in my game. He's gonna nod three times empathetically. One, two, and three.
- [47:46]
B
I found out that Dan is not brat. He's just not sorry ran Dan. Just not Brad.
- [47:51]
C
You're not sorry. You're not sorry.
- [47:54]
B
Well, I hope y' all enjoyed this taping.
- [47:58]
C
It was unbelievable. Nothing better from this week than you going full southern.
- [48:03]
B
And you're gonna think that is fake. I'm gonna find the original audio.
- [48:07]
A
Mina sounds like someone who is not voting for Kamala Harris.
- [48:12]
C
I said this should be her Persona. In the event the news media changes a great deal and a lot of things fall in the next couple of years. And Mina Heights to hide her ethnicity the way that Luis Gonzalo Lebatar did. You have a personality. As Paula Kimes.
- [48:37]
A
Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris To Manello and Juliet Warren. Studio engineering by RG Systems Sound design by NGW Post Our theme song by John Bravo. All of us will see you on Tuesday.