Share & Roast & Tell with Charlotte Wilder and Sarah Spain

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out — “Share & Roast & Tell”

With Charlotte Wilder and Sarah Spain
Date: May 10, 2024
Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (Le Batard & Friends)

Episode Overview

Pablo Torre is joined by Charlotte Wilder and Sarah Spain for a lively episode exploring the art and culture of public roasting, pop music “beef,” internet discourse, and the lore of contemporary celebrity. The conversation ranges from the Netflix Tom Brady Roast and rap feuds (Drake vs. Kendrick), to Taylor Swift’s cryptic songwriting, aging pop stars, and childhood pet stories. The trio blends humor, critique, and personal anecdotes, using each topic as an entry point to discuss broader questions of authenticity, identity, and the digital culture of “share, roast, and tell.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Era of Roasts and Public Beefs

[03:40–11:12]

• Culture of Verbal Humiliation:
  Pablo notes we’re living in “peak roast, peak beef,” referencing public spectacles like the Tom Brady Netflix roast and the highly publicized Drake-Kendrick Lamar diss tracks.

• Roasts as Entertainment:
  The group discusses society’s appetite for seeing celebrities verbally spar and the shifting line between entertainment and mean-spiritedness.

  “All of that… it's just felt so mean-spirited. And I was like, oh, do we really need this? There's multiple wars happening and the world sucks. This isn't where I want to spend my time.” — Sarah Spain [06:47]

• Social Media’s Role:
  Sarah reflects on stepping back from Twitter, feeling it made her “want to be mean less,” linking the adversarial “neuroplasticity” of online spaces to increased real-world cruelty.

  “I think like neuroplasticity and the adversarial brain, you’re telling your brain to go down these pathways the more you use them.” — Sarah Spain [05:05]

• Secret Codes and English Class Vibes:
  Pablo and Sarah riff on how both rap fans and Swifties decode cryptic clues hidden in songs, likening this to literary analysis in English class.

  “I’m on the total outside of the Taylor Swift Da Vinci Code industrial complex.” — Pablo Torre [07:34]
  “This is English class.” — Sarah Spain [08:31]

Notable Moment:

“Judaism has a whole… the Kabala, the Talmud, the mysticism… read the Bible and then wrote texts on the side… being like, I think this. I think God was dissing Abraham, the original rap genius.” — Pablo & Charlotte [09:43–09:59]

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2. Celebrity Lore & The Craft of Public Narrative

[11:12–18:10]

• Gossip as a Bonding Mechanism:
  Charlotte calls public beef “just gossip,” pointing out that it’s a universal human impulse, now supercharged online.
• Comparing Music Dramas:
  The group explores how Taylor Swift’s fanbase dissects her clues about exes, drawing parallels to rap feuds and noting the storytelling strategies artists use.
• Beyoncé’s “Research Paper Album”:
  Charlotte and Sarah discuss Beyoncé’s Cowboy Carter, commending the deep, intellectual storytelling and references.

  “They literally call it a research paper album. And in a good way.” — Sarah Spain [17:21]

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3. Aging Pop Stars, Authenticity, and “Thirst”

[19:28–32:20]

• How Pop Stars Age in the Spotlight:
  Prompted by an Atlantic article on Justin Timberlake’s SNL appearance, the trio debates why some stars (Timberlake, JLo) struggle with “cringe” and others (Beyoncé, Taylor Swift) seem ageless.

• The Ingredients for Aging Gracefully:
  Discussion centers on what “cool” looks like: authenticity, self-acceptance, continual artistic growth—and whether you’re visibly trying too hard.

  “What it means to be cool is that other people can tell that you’re cool with yourself.” — Charlotte Wilder [25:24]

• Comparison to Athletes: Charlotte draws a parallel between aging pop stars and pro athletes like LeBron, noting the rare physical and artistic prowess required to remain at the top.

• Lore vs. Image:
  Stars with negative “lore” (e.g., Timberlake’s treatment of Janet Jackson, Britney Spears) have it harder than those who focus on songwriting or narrative evolution.

• Public Reaction & Internet Cynicism:
  Discussion of “thirst trap” photos and how the internet’s response to stars’ self-presentation reflects a wider cultural reckoning with authenticity and power.

Notable Quote:

“There’s an earnestness to Taylor Swift… she’s self-reflective… JLo and Justin would never let you see a crack, which makes it hard… to feel like they’re being authentic.” — Sarah Spain [26:04]

• Who Ages Well?
  The crew namechecks Joni Mitchell, Tracy Chapman as having aged well by embodying wisdom, compared to the “box office concept” of the pop star.

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4. First Pets, Children, and Learning About Loss

[32:20–44:50]

• Pablo’s Daughter Gets a Fish:
  Lighthearted segment about Violet’s new betta (beta?) fish, “Coop” (a compromise from her first choice, “Poop”), sparking discussion on first pets, parental responsibility, and the cycle of life.

• Pets and Responsibility:
  Charlotte and Sarah reminisce about their childhood pets, emphasizing how animals teach kids about responsibility and, notably, about loss.

  “Part of having a pet, which is good for kids, is understanding that death happens...” — Charlotte Wilder [40:41]

• The Fish-Dog Hierarchy:
  Sarah advocates for dogs over fish (“You can’t hug a fish”), and they joke about the inevitable emotional escalation from fish to dog ownership.

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5. Octopuses—a Tangent on Alien Intelligence

[44:00–45:49]

• Sarah jokes that octopuses may be aliens, citing their unique DNA and intelligence, referencing the film “My Octopus Teacher” and their potential as “great lovers” (in typical irreverent fashion).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Pop Culture as a Soap Opera:

  “Actually, my take about like the NBA soap opera for men is… too limiting. We all see soap opera in everything… All of the time.” — Pablo Torre [15:15]

• On Filling Narrative Gaps:

  “We fill in the blanks where we don’t know things. And… these things can go beyond what the author intended.” — Charlotte Wilder [48:08]

• On Roasting:

  "It's hard to talk about roasts for me without sounding... I hate it." — Charlotte Wilder [18:10]

• On First Pet Names:

  “He had a cat named Aaron Purr.” — Charlotte Wilder [39:10]

• On Childhood Pet Trauma:
  Pablo retells the harrowing story of his childhood hamsters, who cannibalized their young in a "Patrick Bateman Ferris wheel of death.” [41:41–42:49]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 03:40–11:12 | Roasts, beefs, online meanness, and English class interpretive culture | | 11:12–18:10 | Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, layers of celebrity narrative and gossip | | 19:28–32:20 | Aging pop stars, authenticity, and 'try-hard' culture | | 32:20–44:50 | First pets, learning loss and responsibility as children | | 44:00–45:49 | Octopus tangent: intelligence, aliens, and “great lovers” | | 45:49–End | Wrap-up: Mysteries, projections, English class, and the value of filling in narrative gaps |

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Tone & Style

The conversation is quick, irreverent, and packed with both pop culture references and sincere moments of vulnerability. Pablo is as much ringleader as participant, frequently guiding—but sometimes helpless in—the wide-ranging, often tangential discussions. The trio’s chemistry allows for frequent ribbing and self-deprecation, while always returning to larger questions about how we perform, interpret, and create meaning in public.

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Conclusion & Final Insights

• Subjectivity and Projection:
  Both in music and everyday life, we interpret clues and “blank spaces,” often going far beyond what was literally intended—whether it’s dissecting lyrics, reading into celebrities’ actions, or even naming a pet.
• Social Media’s Lasting Impact:
  The adversarial dynamics fostered online have tangible impacts on how we see and interact with others, feeding into cultural obsessions with “beef” and spectacle.
• Aging and Authenticity:
  How gracefully a public figure ages is less about years than about self-knowledge and the ability to be real—whether that comes via songwriting, public persona, or just being cool with oneself.
• On Life’s Lessons:
  Even the most mundane topics—the death of a fish, the humor of a pet’s name—spark discussion about mortality, memory, and what it means to be human (with or without a “fish-dog bias”).

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In Pablo’s Words:

“What I found… is something that I did not even think was possible, which is that Charlotte Wilder could inadvertently mention the name of a Taylor Swift song without intentionally calling out the blank space aspect of this entire conversation.” [48:20]

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is a deft mixture of comedy, cultural critique, and deeply personal storytelling—a characteristic “Le Batard & Friends” production where you’ll leave with new pop culture knowledge, a few hearty laughs, and maybe a little more sympathy for the humble beta fish.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Sarah Spain]

Michael Jordan, like the hottest person ever.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad.

[Charlotte Wilder]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, are you wearing your awful shoes?

[Pablo Torre]

First off, how dare you?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Okay, I don't.

[Sarah Spain]

Have you seen them?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You expect me to respond to that?

[Charlotte Wilder]

I don't want to gas Pablo up, but I saw those before. I saw that you had them and I wanted them and I was really pissed.

[Pablo Torre]

They were sold out because they rule.

[Sarah Spain]

But did you want them as a joke? Like, oh, I host a basketball show, haha. Or like, for real?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Somewhere in between.

[Pablo Torre]

Sorry, Paul, full sincerity.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Somewhere in between.

[Pablo Torre]

I. I am not wearing them because I left the house in a rush.

[Charlotte Wilder]

And you forgot.

[Pablo Torre]

And I forgot.

[Charlotte Wilder]

How did you get them? Those were hard to get. I feel like I'm on a menswear podcast, bullying me.

[Sarah Spain]

I just want you to know I got a text last night from our mutual friends, well, Josh, Bart and Tony Rally, who I'm trying to meet for lunch. And I was like, I don't know if I'll have time. If Pablo's on time, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. Then I should be able to make it.

[Pablo Torre]

If anybody knows.

[Sarah Spain]

And then this morning, Pablo, Anybody?

[Pablo Torre]

Sorry, how. How I roll. It is Josh Bard, who has not seen me on an around the horn conference call in approximately 10 years.

[Sarah Spain]

That explains your performances.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm gonna confess to you guys that I'm moving slowly today, mentally speaking for.

[Sarah Spain]

The obvious and standard reasons or otherwise.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't know.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I. I will confess to you that I feel like my brain has been some mix of Swiss cheese and scrambled eggs for at least a month now.

[Pablo Torre]

And what's your deal?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Couldn't tell you.

[Sarah Spain]

I don't know if you believe in the planet stuff, but somebody who does believe in it told me like a week and a half ago that some lengthy things thing ended. And if you felt like you were a mess for a long stretch, it should have ended about a week and a half ago or so. So no, Wasn't the planets messing with you?

[Pablo Torre]

I'd like to embrace the planets as an excuse here.

[Charlotte Wilder]

You know, someone once said to me that astrology is not as much like mysticism as it is a collection of data points over centuries about what people who are born at certain times are like. I'm Aries sun, Scorpio moon, which is potentially a moon.

[Pablo Torre]

Are we an astrology podcast?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Well, that's it. I'm just saying it's potentially like the most horrifying combination a person could be, I think. You know, so an Aries is like, you know, out there. And I actually don't really know because it's also like, confrontational.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, what's the.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Just like, oh, it's me. I'm Ario.

[Sarah Spain]

It's a me. Aries.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm. I'm sun sign. Is it sun sign? Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay. Yeah, that's the main one that people know, right?

[Pablo Torre]

So sun sign, Libra moon, Waluigi.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah, I'm Peach rising. Bowser descending.

[Pablo Torre]

The first topic today is obvious from a big picture perspective because this has been, I would say, peak roast, peak beef. We are living in a world where the things that everybody wants to talk about are people humiliating each other verbally. Tom Brady, Netflix roast.

[Charlotte Wilder]

You retired, then you came back, and then you retired again.

[Sarah Spain]

I mean, I get it. It's hard to walk away from something.

[Charlotte Wilder]

That'S not your pregnant girlfriend. It's tough.

[Pablo Torre]

Hey, of course, Drake, Kendrick Lamar, all of that say Drake.

[Sarah Spain]

I hear you.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, I'm young. You better not ever go to cell black one. But Sarah, you brought a different sort of an angle that I didn't anticipate that I feel comfortable in your expertise about.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay. Let me briefly explain how I got there, which is also fascinating to me because my job changed in the last year and a half. And for the first time in eight years, I didn't have a nightly radio show. And for the first time in 12 years, I didn't have just daily radio of any kind where I needed to know all the things all the time. As a result, I decided to step back from social media. Now, if you follow me, you're like, really?

[Charlotte Wilder]

I'm like, did you have it?

[Sarah Spain]

So Instagram's still very active because it's like, joyful to me. And it's just I use it to document my life in ways other people are much more.

[Pablo Torre]

If you've heard and Charlotte, on this episode.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Before. On this genre episode before, It's Sarah and 50 friends.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

In a given Instagram photo.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah. And I just like em and overshare just in general. But on like Twitter X, which is also another reason it's just getting progressively worse and less tenable. So I just, I didn't need to be on there to engage every day and keep up with every joke and meme and thing to be able to host. And it's made me just want to be nicer now. Literally. I think like neuroplasticity and the adversarial brain, which is you're telling your brain to go down these pathways the more you use them, and it creates shortcuts so that you can get there faster. And that's great. It's an adaptation that helps us, but it also can be bad.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is why when Charlotte lapsed into a Mario impression.

[Sarah Spain]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Charlotte Wilder]

For sure. I actually. That's Rainbow Road. That's that path.

[Sarah Spain]

Your brain created that to get there. And you use it a lot. Yeah, but because I stopped engaging in a space that is so often, like, literally. I'm sure you guys understand this. If you're going to tweet something, you check every word to make sure there isn't some loophole that someone can be like, well, actually.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I stopped having Hate a typo.

[Sarah Spain]

Right? A typo.

[Pablo Torre]

Or like, you say something, let alone in misinterpretation. I'm just like, that neurotic, Right?

[Sarah Spain]

You said many instead of some, and I wouldn't say many.

[Pablo Torre]

I hate the extra space that I accidentally.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh, that is the worst. Or an errant capital.

[Sarah Spain]

So, anyway, long story short, it's made me want to be mean less, and it's made me just less interested in diving into these beefs. So when this Kendrick Drake thing started, first of all, I'm not a super fan of either. I appreciate Kendrick's lyricism. I understand that Drake can write a bop and he was funny on snl. I don't really care about either. They're not my, like, number one. And so I thought to myself, like, I also don't like people's pain and misery being just, like, harvested because, like, Drake's pulling up Kendrick getting abused as a child.

[Pablo Torre]

And pretty much everything possible to embarrass the other person by. They are going to.

[Sarah Spain]

Right? And then all the, like, oh, he's gay or he's actually white, or, like, it just felt so mean spirited. And I was like, oh, do we really need this? There's, like, multiple wars happening and the world sucks. Like, this isn't where I want to spend my time. And then I took a step back and realized that I had spent a good month listening to Taylor Swift's Tortured Poets Department. Like, getting really involved in, like, who's this one about? Oh, my gosh. Okay, so this is a song that Matty healy in the 1975 covered and, like, blah, blah. Oh, my God, Hell of a diss there. Like, she got him with that, like, smallest man there. But, like, whatever. And then I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is the shaking Hands meme of, like, Swifties and Kendrick stands where we're dissecting lyrics and, like, decoding like disses and, like, we can all bond over that. We could come together as a community and be like, sometimes it is fun to see who might be getting ripped. So.

[Pablo Torre]

So I'm on the total outside of the Taylor Swift Da Vinci Code industrial complex.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It's the best way I've ever heard it described. As someone very much on the inside.

[Sarah Spain]

As a member of the Illuminati, this.

[Pablo Torre]

Is why I brought you guys here today. Is that the decoding of beef. Taylor Swift is actually a master of leaving clues for her army of fans and enemies to try and decipher. And I didn't make the connection that Sarah made in the course of her usage of this social media hellscape. And I realized, oh, right, this is an enormous part of how we do humiliation now is that there is the explicit. There is the over text of, like, you suck and you have ghostwriters and I'm gonna murder you. And then there's a subtext of everybody trying to figure out the clues beyond even. I would argue what the author even intended. And that part, I was like, oh, I'm in English class again.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, this is English class.

[Sarah Spain]

Which we used to always do. Like, do you think the author meant this, or are we just overanalyzing every freaking word? It's. It actually doesn't matter. Like, that's sometimes what makes things great is that there's enough depth for everybody to find something of their own in it.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I'm about to say one of the most obnoxious things I've ever said on a podcast, so please forgive me. When I was in. In, you know, taking English classes in college, and we came across new criticism and derry da. And like, this is.

[Pablo Torre]

How did you become the first person to say derry da on my own show?

[Charlotte Wilder]

I sort of wanted to slip you. If I'm being. If I'm being honest. I was like, I don't think Pablo's done this one yet. So which is the school of thought of, like, you have to divorce the author from the text? I was like, this is. I was like, I want to know everybody who, you know, this person was talking about, because this is something people have done forever.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, since the Bible. When I took theology class in high school, to one up you with the word exegesis, we would analyze the Old Testament and try to divine the divine.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And of course, we have no idea whether this guy meant it that way. But Civilizations were actually formed on the basis of these interpretations.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Judaism has a whole. The cabala, the. The Talmud, the mysticism of where these guys went back because they were all guys at that point and. And read the Bible and then wrote texts on the side of the Bible, being like, I think this.

[Pablo Torre]

I think God was dissing Abraham, the original rap genius.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

Also, guys, when I took a Hitchcock class in college, this is a real thing. I was aware that he was intentionally putting himself into every film at least once as a cameo. So we knew that the artist.

[Pablo Torre]

A little Stan Lee of him. Stan Lee in the mcu, just inserting himself into the story.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah. I do think what attracts me to all of this. I also. Sarah spent. I mean, any Taylor Swift song, I got so deep in the lore that I'm like, well, okay, so if the 1975 used that beat because Jack Antonoff produced both of them, and Jack Antonoff actually plays into the Kendrick and Drake beef as well.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, how.

[Charlotte Wilder]

How so? Drake had a song called TaylorMade that was AI, which also used some of Tupac's. His Tupac's estate was like, you can't use this. We. We're going to sue you. So Spotify took it down, and then Kendrick had Jack Antonoff produce his next diss track. So it was literally Taylor made. Cuz the guy who makes Taylor songs.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm so out of my depth on all of this.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Anyway, what I think all of this is is gossip. And we all love gossip, and we always have and we always will. And my friend Kelsey McKenney, who does the podcast Normal Gossip, has a book coming out about it. Absolutely amazing. This is the most fun way to bond is by what are other people. Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah. And I think for men, it's kind of like how I think WWE for a lot of guys is basically like going to a play, but they don't want to say it. It's. I mean, you're just watching a play that's very homoerotic as well. So, like, maybe you're kind of wanting to see a little bit of that, but you don't want to say, I want to see a giant man in a banana hammock hugging another giant man.

[Pablo Torre]

In a banana, shoving his ass cheeks another man's face that's super. So strange mask.

[Sarah Spain]

But I think also, like with rap beefs or other sports, like, remember. And this is still the case, but there was a pivotal moment where we all recognized that the NBA off season and who was going where was a bigger draw than the actual Games. People cared more about that stretch of like who's going where, who hates who. Is somebody literally getting trapped in a room with a chair under the door so that they don't sign with another team. Let's post some emojis about it. Like we were following that more than the games because everybody loves it. You just need to package it up in a way that people feel comfortable saying they're into. Which Kendrick is basically turning everyone into Swifties.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. So I I what a take. Let's aggregate that.

[Charlotte Wilder]

They have a song they have like they did Bad Blood together.

[Sarah Spain]

Bad Blood, which was ostensibly not a great song. Kendrick's verse made it better, but it is very catchy.

[Pablo Torre]

Who is the Drake though of Taylor Swift if Kendrick is Taylor?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh, everybody. It's a long Anyone who ever wronged.

[Sarah Spain]

Her on the most recent album, everyone thinks the manuscript is probably still throwing back to John Mayer based on the age remarks.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Or Jake Gyllenhaal.

[Sarah Spain]

Or Jake Gyllenhaal. Matty Healey, the guy from the 1975 is the focus of a lot of it which a lot of people were critical of because Swifties would prefer that whole era didn't exist because he's a real douche. But. But at the same time it presents this much more multi dimensional portrait of someone who was in a long term relationship with someone who seemed like a good choice but it turned out was probably like emotionally abusive or at the very least completely distant and never wanted to take credit for her or show her off. She gets out of that long term relationship, literally writes a song fresh out the Slammer, which is like a really lame name and also a pretty lame song but it's okay. But writes about like then she immediately runs to the arms of this awful bad boy douche and everybody hates it. But it provides all of this like artistic influence that makes these songs that are very different than a lot of her other ones in the sense of like the guys she's singing about is not just like. It's he's like everyone's mad at her, the fans are yelling at her for dating him. Like it created this great aspect to the album that people didn't expect. They thought it was me. A whole album about Joe Alwyn, the long term guy she broke up with and instead it's about this guy that was a couple months fling.

[Pablo Torre]

I just want to acknowledge how stupid my question was.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Of course, I mean but also you.

[Pablo Torre]

Could say Taylor is everybody who she's ever dated.

[Charlotte Wilder]

You could say it's Kim Kardashian. You could say it's Kanye West. You could say it's Karlie Kloss. You could say it's Scooter Braun. You could say it's Scott Borchetta. You could say like there are so many.

[Sarah Spain]

I don't even know the last guy.

[Charlotte Wilder]

He was a big machine guy who sold to Scooter her. Her masters that she wanted to own. I think too that you know, I have gotten so deep down this rabbit hole that I'm like, okay, I think Taylor and Maddie for 10 years have had a will, won't they? They started maybe dating in 2014. Then they, then they weren't dating then she was with this guy, but she Cardigan, which she wrote in 2020 was about him. And then, but. And so I think that Taylor at the age of 34 had the experience that I think a lot of women probably had in their 20s where you think that this man who is, you know, very affectionate and then withdraws and then like is some sort of poet and you think he's smart and then, and then you, you realize you're like, oh, he's just right. He's just a non committ douchebag who's treating me poorly. And then you move on. I think cuz she got famous, it was all mixed up and then it.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, I think the. There's a song Peter where she references specifically 1975 stuff. So you know, it's about him and he has a whole thing Peter Pan phase, whatever. She mentions that she like basically waited for him to grow up enough for them to give it a real go and then that that was never actually going to happen.

[Pablo Torre]

I have never felt less in control of my own.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

But okay, the Peter Pan thing though, right? I think that brings us to this general sense of like look, no one here is especially mature. Is that fair to say? Like what. So part of what feels like an arrested adolescents, which I am not above, I embody this. Actually my take about like the NBA soap opera for men is actually. It's too limiting. It's that we all see soap opera in everything. Yeah, all of the time. Music, art, everything. And when it comes to what the armies of interpreters are bringing, there's also, I would say a brilliance to the strategy that feels at this point quite deliberate and intentional. Which is part of how you win an argument, how you win a roast, how you win a beef, is that you get democracy on your side. You become. You are the trending topic above all others. And the whole idea of I'm going to have my army of volunteer detectives solve this mystery. Is playing to the very mechanism of how the Internet works.

[Charlotte Wilder]

What it is, though, it's all, like, great storytelling, because great storytelling is, like, when do you reveal what information? And that is what's so impressive to me about, like, keeping this going through and the fact that I actually think that, for me, this goes back far. Like, I've spent the most time on genius that I've ever spent in this year. This calendar year.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been peak genius between Taylor and between.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Well, also for me, Beyonce.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Cowboy Card is my favorite album. Maybe of all time.

[Sarah Spain]

It's insane.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Maybe of all time. Which never felt so connected to an album.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, who's she? Who's she roasting?

[Charlotte Wilder]

She. Well, America. America and slavery and. But also she includes. She rewrites Jolene to be about the, you know, Becky with the good hair. So she is also. She. Beyonce, I think, is a step above everybody here because she is not only using her personal lore and the things that fans can connect things to. And, like, even musically, I was like, oh, I think I heard that if.

[Sarah Spain]

You switched on for me, they literally call it a research paper album. And in a good way.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yes.

[Sarah Spain]

They're, like, the amount of work that went into understanding every instrument, every person, every. Like, the language is based on specific, like, routes that used to be taken for black country artists going to different cities, like, all the stuff. Oh, and she puts album of the year in her song, by the way. Aoty. So speaking of roasting, her husband literally gets on the Grammy stage. Thank you for this lifetime achievement. Give my wife a album of the year. What are you doing?

[Pablo Torre]

I don't want to embarrass this young lady, but she has more Grammys than everyone and never one album of the year. So even by your own metrics, that doesn't work. Think about that. The most Grammys never won album of the year. That doesn't work.

[Sarah Spain]

And then she throws aoty. How about now? Or whatever. In the middle of a song.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It's hard to talk about roasts for me without sounding.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't think you'd be good at roasting Charlotte.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I hate it.

[Sarah Spain]

I hate it. So nice.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Thank you so much. I hate it. I don't. I don't like watching it.

[Pablo Torre]

The only thing Charlotte hates in the world I think might be hate is roasting.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah, I do. I mean, I do there. I do have some hate in my heart. I told a really bad joke on Levitard last week. Mip tell my other favorite Joke.

[Pablo Torre]

What's that?

[Charlotte Wilder]

So a grasshopper walks into a bar, and the bartender says, hey, did you know we have a drink named after you? And the grasshopper goes, you have a drink named Steve?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God.

[Sarah Spain]

Such a simple soul.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I think it's really funny. It's really funny imagining a grasshopper named Steve being like.

[Pablo Torre]

Meanwhile, it's like, let's punch that up. Hey, Steve.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Hey, Steve.

[Pablo Torre]

Your wife got by your manager, and your manager liked her Instagram comment about it.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Steve's like, what?

[Pablo Torre]

Topic number two today. Yeah, I feel like we're gonna stay in the room.

[Sarah Spain]

Related.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna mute my laptop. It's just very popular, getting texts from my mom. It's about a thing that feels like a. A roast. Worthy subject. Charlotte, do you want to introduce it?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah, sure. It's very related to. To what we're talking about. It's about aging pop stars. It's pop stars who. Basically, this was based on an article about Justin Timberlake in the Atlantic after he hosted snl.

[Sarah Spain]

And Sarah didn't host musical guests. Sorry.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Musical guest. Wanted to host.

[Sarah Spain]

Important distinction.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Seemed to be thirsting for the other hosting. You sent that to all of us. And I was like, oh, this is. Yes. Because I had watched that episode, and I was like, oh, God. And my husband and I actually went on a deep dive of his older stuff of like, when he hosted in 2006 with the Tennessee Omeletville.

[Pablo Torre]

And it was electric, seemed invincible.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It was a little cringy in that. He's always been a little cringy. Also, I think that.

[Sarah Spain]

See, I don't find him cringy in the past.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I've always. Maybe this didn't, like, when I was. When I was a teenager and people were like, oh, my God, Justin's so hot. I was like, I do not see it. I have never.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Seen it.

[Sarah Spain]

This is going to be a good point counterpoint, because I have lusted after Justin Timberlake for long stretches.

[Pablo Torre]

Sarah's also lusted after Benny the Bull.

[Sarah Spain]

Fair.

[Charlotte Wilder]

True.

[Sarah Spain]

Add it to the list. Someone start making a chart of weird.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Things, things Sarah's horny for, which always comes back around when we do this, which I love Michael Jordan.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say always comes around to Michael Jordan. Oh, don't look shocked. That man is fire. Why did you just make that face to Michael Jordan, the hottest person ever?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Basically, all of this to say that he has not aged well as a pop star. I would also argue JLo, which we. And Katie Nolan Talked about has not aged well as a pop star. People who are aging well. I mean, like Taylor Swift and Beyonce and. And to me, it's a little bit like athletes, right? Like pop stars. What they're doing physically, like, what Beyonce is doing it. I think she's 42, maybe 43. Physically is insane. To me, it's like watching LeBron play basketball at the age of almost 40. It's like, how on God's green earth are you doing this?

[Sarah Spain]

Or even Taylor at 35 or 34, doing three hours.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yes, exactly. Where you're like, oh, your. Your body's the only thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on. Because JLo is like, but look, I've been up to. And so there's something else happening here.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yes. Except that you can tell. I think audiences can immediately tell when people are trying too hard.

[Pablo Torre]

Y.

[Charlotte Wilder]

And I think that what JLO and Justin Timberlake always had was this pop Persona. They had hits. They also did not have lore. The lore that they had was bad. Justin Timberlake was like, wait, actually, are you a guy like you. You. Britney Spears comes out with her memoir and says he made her have an abortion in these way. Or like, all this stuff comes out.

[Pablo Torre]

Janet. Jack, the.

[Charlotte Wilder]

The Janet Jackson thing. Exactly. Where his career is untarnished. Maybe even takes off more because of that. She loses whatever she had in the industry.

[Sarah Spain]

Briefly banned from the Grammys and things that. Which, by the way, I did a deep dive into that after we decided this topic. And I was like, what a different time. She had a full nipple cover on. We didn't even see nipple. And she was banned from the Grammys. Disney took a statue of Rhythm Nation out of the park. It's like we see almost 90% of every woman's boob all the time now.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It's crazy.

[Sarah Spain]

It's just like, very common.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yes.

[Sarah Spain]

Most dresses are just a nipple cover.

[Charlotte Wilder]

What Jayla wore to the Met Gala, right. Was just nipple covers with some sparkles.

[Sarah Spain]

Rita Ora was just wearing some strings that hung in front, somehow managed to cover.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Emily Ratajkowski's dress was fully see through. So.

[Sarah Spain]

So nice one.

[Charlotte Wilder]

So basically, I think that the. The pop star part of it is very interesting because that's sort of the physical part of it. But it's also, as a singer songwriter, I think it's much easier to age. Like, if you look at Joni Mitchell coming at the. Coming on stage at the Grammys and I'm weeping every. It's beautiful. Because what we go to singer songwriters for is wisdom and feeling. And as you get Older. Those are things that you can keep imparting. And what Taylor Swift and Beyonce have done is incorporate. They are singer songwriters and they have brought more into their world.

[Pablo Torre]

I think there's something else too on that, right. Because it is about thirst. It is about someone trying to visibly seem like they still got it, that their prime is actually going on right now. The window is still open. And I think Joni Mitchell's whole deal, right, has always been. Or Tracy Chapman, who is like an even more extreme example of like, I don't care about public perception. That's the singer songwriter, I think, sort of aesthetic far more than the pop star who is a pop star by definition. A box office concept.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I think about just like, people who are. I guess it's this. What we're getting to is this question of, like, what does it mean to age gracefully?

[Sarah Spain]

I think there are pop stars who somehow keep it authentic and working. So I think it's more the thirst that you're talking about. I think it's the desire to try to figure out the zeitgeist and continue to evolve with it in a way that for some people just works and for other people it doesn't. I also think you. Whether your songs are good. Like, I think if Justin Timberlake's latest album had some bangers on it, even if we looked at him and thought he seemed a little desperate, he would be back on the radio and he would be back and we would be, even in spite of ourselves, bopping along to it and being like, oh, this is fire. And he doesn't. The last two albums have not had a lot of great music. And JLo, for all the talents that she does have, is not a great singer and hasn't had, like, the. When she lasted snl. Same place as Justin, where you're like, this song sucks. I think.

[Pablo Torre]

I think what we're circling though, is, like, something that I find fascinating, which is, what does it mean to be cool?

[Charlotte Wilder]

What it means to be cool is that other people can tell that you're cool with yourself.

[Sarah Spain]

Yes.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Basically. Like. And I think that with part of what I mean by, like, singer, songwriter, like, Beyonce and Taylor Swift are still very much pop stars, but I think that their music is still good. And Justin Timberlake's last album, no offense to Justin Timberlake, it was assigned. So I think that that plays into it. But I also think that JLo and Justin Timberlake, I would argue, have always had a little bit of. You're like, oh, God, you're trying really Hard. And people. I think the audience picks up on that. Taylor Swift is always trying really hard and tells everybody she's trying really hard.

[Sarah Spain]

There's an earnestness to Taylor Swift that feels also like she's self reflective and aware of, like, kind of being dorky sometimes and all this stuff. Whereas, like, JLO and Justin would never let you see a crack y, which makes it hard to then feel like they're being authentic because everybody has flaws. But I would say with Justin, like, I don't know if it missed you somehow, but, like, at one point, he was, like, infallible. People did not cringe looking at him. He was the biggest star, like, between SNL and Jimmy Fallon and his music.

[Pablo Torre]

And he was an actor in movies.

[Sarah Spain]

He was an actor. He was. Every SNL was like, appointment. His comedy stuff was hilarious. Like, there wasn't that feeling of he's trying too hard. It was like, this guy is. Owns the industry.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah. Now that you say that. I mean, Dick in a Box was.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Wilder]

But also, like, he. I do. I want to say that I think Justin Timberlake is an unbelievable musician. Like, and called him Dancer.

[Pablo Torre]

Just for the new album.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I just said his new album, I think. And like, the. The what comes around goes around. Like, the 2020 experience. Like, I love that album. I. Yes, I am being too harsh on him.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

But there is this dynamic of, like, it's not just about age. So, like, there are lots of old people who feel young.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Like Jeff Goldblum.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh, like King.

[Pablo Torre]

The. The just the Panther. Like Diane Keaton. Physical presence. Yes. People who can show up on a red carpet and are just like, their pores are leaking confidence.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oprah. Oprah.

[Pablo Torre]

So these are people who are the elderly at this point.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And yet if you're saying to me, like, who feels like they're more comfortable in their skin? And even more than that, who feels like they're young? Right now, I would say I think of Jeff Goldblum before I think of Justin Timberlake.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Because it doesn't feel like Jeff Goldblum is fighting the hands of time.

[Sarah Spain]

Right. I think Justin still looks good. He's not like.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Sarah Spain]

I mean, he's clearly aging.

[Pablo Torre]

That's what it's about.

[Sarah Spain]

But he's still a handsome person. But something about him doesn't feel young.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

It's not about. So this is the thing.

[Sarah Spain]

And he could still dance well and he. He's fit.

[Pablo Torre]

But like, I watched this thing of Jeff Goldblum at this red carpet, the Met Gala, really into him and I know. I just. Guys, I just can't.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I can't blame you. I can't.

[Pablo Torre]

Have you guys seen this video? It's just like, again, this is just like one example of just like there's.

[Sarah Spain]

Some me too stuff around him. So I.

[Pablo Torre]

Is there really?

[Sarah Spain]

He's not been my king. Oh, I just disappointed you guys so much. I'm so sorry. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not gonna speak from authority, but yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

God damn it.

[Sarah Spain]

It's hard for me to get into.

[Pablo Torre]

It before I tee up a Jeff Goldblum sot. Hold on, let me just. Jeff. Jeff Goldblum defends. Woody Allen is the first. God damn it. God damn it.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Why?

[Sarah Spain]

So my trainer, like, is a sports guy, but doesn't follow anything other than watching the game. So every week he'll have some new athlete that he comes up like, I love this guy, Conor McGregor. This guy's amazing. He has nothing wrong with him. I'm like, homophobic slurs. And he's like, why do you always do this to me? I'm like, I wish I didn't know. I wish I could just enjoy sports like everyone else. But once I learn, I'm like, ah.

[Pablo Torre]

I can't even quote Jurassic park anymore.

[Charlotte Wilder]

The thing that sticks out in my mind when I think about, like a JLo, for example, is the scene in this Is Me now, the documentary where she's sitting in her gym and she's in workout clothes and she's like tousling her hair and she's like, my hair's curly. It reminds me of when I was a kid in the Bronx. 16. And all these people in the Bronx are like, okay, you, first of all. Also, it's come out that that scene took her like 12 takes. People in the Bronx have been like, you never came. Like, you left a while ago. And like, we weren't like, you're. You're using us now. Yeah. And so I think it's. It's when things like that happen, I don't know what. Justin Timberlake, that's what. I also feel really bad that I was so mean about him because I used to love him and I forgot.

[Sarah Spain]

So that's what I was.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so I feel really terribly. I started off so strong.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I said he was asking. I'm like, wait, he's an unbelievably talented.

[Sarah Spain]

Performer, but that's what I'm trying to figure out. So, like, you're. You can be in that place because you were never that into him. I'm still clinging to Wanting to. I'm like, planning to go to his show this summer. I want to keep loving him. And he's giving me cringe. And this is coming from someone that is, like, wholeheartedly supportive. And I'm like, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on everything and you're still cringe. Like, I. I can't figure out exactly what it is. Like, it was interesting. Jessica Beal, his wife, posted this kind of thirst trappy photo of him and was like, he's never going to post this, but I will, like, you're welcome or whatever. And instead of the comments being fire hot love. Oh, my God, thank you. It was a lot of people that were like, nobody wants this. Or like, he definitely told you to post this.

[Pablo Torre]

And I'm like, he did my theory.

[Sarah Spain]

No, like, of course, of course. But like, we all know that's how the Internet works, right? Like, everyone. Oops, someone caught me looking amazing.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Like, oh, sorry, was I too hot there?

[Sarah Spain]

Right, exactly like, oh, what a funny photo. But my ass just looks amazing. But it's definitely about how funny it is. But anyway, like, it was writ large for me. Like, I already could feel the cringe. And then I saw that I was like, oh, man, everybody is having this same, like, weird. Of course it has to do with Britney. Of course has to do with Janet. Of course has to do with this reckoning that we're doing about, like, white male power and how they were elevated for years while others were taken down and yada yada.

[Pablo Torre]

But it's also.

[Sarah Spain]

But there's other people who have survived that and are perfect.

[Pablo Torre]

We're.

[Sarah Spain]

We're fine with it. And we're able to say, that was then, this is dot, dot, dot now. And we know that things are different. And as long as they. And he has said the right things about, you know, cultural appropriation about his band, about Britney, about Janet.

[Pablo Torre]

At a.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Concert.

[Sarah Spain]

To apologize to absolutely nobody. Oh, I didn't see that. But in statements and in commentary, like.

[Pablo Torre]

How does it change? Sarah, Janet, put that in your Jeff Gold.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I was thinking about fish sticks the other day. What happened to him? No longer is it a thing kids eat. Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

I haven't so oo transition to children.

[Sarah Spain]

Nailed it.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a touchy topic. Violet just got her first pet.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, and it's a fish.

[Pablo Torre]

And it's a fish.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Okay. So many questions.

[Pablo Torre]

Feeding her fish sticks.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Does she eat fish?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, but the fish sticks. Okay, so on the subject of fish sticks, my frustration is that they're not really sticks anymore. They're just like nugs.

[Charlotte Wilder]

That's okay.

[Pablo Torre]

What I'm sort of seeing.

[Sarah Spain]

How have I never even thought before about kids having a pet fish and eating fish. Yeah. That was the first. Seem like a different species. Like if we. We would be very aware of, like if you had a pet dog and then you tried to feed your kid's dog, that they would be like, wait a minute, isn't this, you know, Ruffy, which was the first name of my dog that I named myself.

[Pablo Torre]

Truly what I wanted to get to here in my topic is our first pets and whether I'm doing it right. Fish. This is her pet fish.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh.

[Pablo Torre]

So we got a tank.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Pineapple.

[Pablo Torre]

We got a spongebob pineapple angelfish thing. This is. It's pronounced apparently beta B E T A. But beta beta. But they're YouTube.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It's a beautiful fish. Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't know how to pronounce it. Is a beautiful fish. I got real live aquatic plants. Those are real plants. Except for the spongebob pineapple. Everything else there is real beautiful. Hate fake plants. And this is the fish that Violet picked out. The fish's name is Cooper.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Like cooped up Coop.

[Sarah Spain]

Like hanging with Mr. Cooper.

[Pablo Torre]

Coop, as in she wanted to name it Poop. And we were like, let's negotiate. And we settled on Coop. So that's Violet and that's Coop. That's the story of my life.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Beautiful.

[Pablo Torre]

That was my weekend. And it's a big step. A first pet. I didn't realize how big of a step it was until I was at PETCO Holding. Like, total cliche. All of the things you need to get a fish tank.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Cleaner, gravel substrate. Real plants that are not fake. The fish itself that are the plants cleaning thing. Fake plants are actually my least favorite thing.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Fake plants.

[Sarah Spain]

You're very proud of your plants. So.

[Pablo Torre]

And also, just like fake plants don't do anything.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

They are a depressing simulation of something that gives you none of the benefits.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah.

[Sarah Spain]

Agree.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Do you like the fact that the real plants, like, give nutrients to the water?

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You can watch them grow. Deserves oxygenate and. And feed Coupe. If nothing else, the goodwill of the planet that we have destroyed. Destroyed and taken him from. Or her. I don't know if Coupe is no way of.

[Sarah Spain]

So what are you worried about in terms of whether you're doing this right?

[Pablo Torre]

So we start with a fish. And I just wonder. I've been warned that this is just one step.

[Charlotte Wilder]

The gateway fish, gateway pet.

[Pablo Torre]

Towards what I am not ready for. Which is ultimately A dog.

[Sarah Spain]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

As an apartment dweller in Manhattan. But I was curious what you guys, what your gateway pets were and how you felt about them in retrospect.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh man. Well, my mom has always loved animals and had dogs and cats. I think when my parents met my dad was not a huge dog person and my mom had two huge dogs and then he quickly became a dog person and so I've just grown up. We always had a dog and we always had a cat and it wasn't, it was sort of more of a given for me than like a, please can I have a pet? Now looking back, I'm like, wow. My parents really like they were, they were ready to take care of stuff if they had. Cuz it's not a small thing to have a life and pets and Sarah, you have dogs, you have to, you know. Yeah, they require a lot.

[Sarah Spain]

They require a lot. Yeah. I have three. One of them is a 57 pound, 10 month old puppy right now that we just acquired. So that one's adding a lot of work. And he's the best. His name, his name's Indie because we rescued him the day we left for Indonesia, which is a great plan is to rescue a dog and then immediately have to find somebody to watch him.

[Pablo Torre]

For 12 immediately abandoned.

[Sarah Spain]

Well, he was in the shelter for his name was Spain. In the shelter they named him Spain. Okay. I saw, kept it. I know, I saw a photo. Well, when we call my own name, like running around Spain, Spain. It's a little, it's too much even for me, Leo. But see. Yeah, exactly. So his name was Spain. So I spotted him in January. I'm like, oh my God, his name's Spain and he's so cute. Cuz I follow all the rescue things in Chicago. I try to post the dogs for other people, see. And then February, I'm like, Spain's still there. That's wild. Like what a cute dog. And then march. And I'm like, man, this dog might not make it because he's at the pound in Chicago. It's completely overflowing and there's no warning on which dogs get put down every day. Even the volunteers don't get told. So like at any moment he could just be like, well okay, you've been here three months, no one took you, so you're dead. It's awful. And most people don't realize how many dies get dogs get killed every day. And then they go buy a fancy puppy instead of rescuing. And then I want to sit them down for a nice long talk. But the point is, we had a dog when I was first growing up that passed away when I was pretty young. So we got Roughy, who my sister and I got to name Ruffy, and then we had Toby. So we always had dogs. Just one dog growing up.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Up.

[Sarah Spain]

I think they're really important for kids so that they're not afraid of dogs. I think it's hard to raise kids. They don't have to have one, but they should be around them so they get comfortable with them. I also think it best case scenario they learn a little responsibility. Although that's a lot to ask. Usually the parents end up doing everything right, but. And then I had a fish that was so fat and lazy that it floated upside down instead of having to, like, use its fins to keep moving. So we always thought it was dead over and over and over. And then you'd hit the thing and it would flip back over and be like, I'm alive.

[Charlotte Wilder]

That's me trying to wake up every.

[Pablo Torre]

Morning noticing a real bias in how Sarah views and empathizes with different species of animal.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah, no, the fish. The fish was great. It was just hilarious.

[Pablo Torre]

Dogs get cute names ending in y.

[Sarah Spain]

Fish, Roughy, Toby, Indy.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Good.

[Sarah Spain]

Good call. I have two other dogs, Fletch and Banks. They don't have wise, but I actually forget the fish name right now, which is sad. My dad watched him when we went to camp one summer and he didn't make it. And I'm like, either he forgot to feed him or he was not dead. And my dad was like, oh, looks dead down the toilet. He's like, ah, I'm not dead yet. I'm getting better.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Can I tell you guys a name of the cat that I was brought home to?

[Pablo Torre]

What do you mean, brought home to?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Like, when I was.

[Sarah Spain]

She was born, the cat existed.

[Charlotte Wilder]

He had a dog named Bear and a cat named Aaron. Purr.

[Sarah Spain]

This is if anyone wants the game on Hamilton.

[Charlotte Wilder]

If anyone wants to know why I am the way I am, it's because I have parents who named a cat Aaron Per.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay, well, I have a neighbor who has chickens, and they're named Gloria Steinhen and Ruth Bader Hensberg. So those kids are also growing up in a.

[Charlotte Wilder]

They're also going to become podcasters.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to roast all of you.

[Sarah Spain]

Wait, so, Paulo, I like the fish. My gentle suggestion, if you can get another fish of the same type, it's going to loosen or. Or lessen the blow when the fish inevitably die. So they just don't live very long.

[Pablo Torre]

Usually I feel like the. The beta. Beta fish is. There are two T's. It's been. I've been it confusing to me.

[Sarah Spain]

I've always heard betta fish.

[Pablo Torre]

Me too.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Until I got into Betta fish. YouTube. And all these people are like, I've.

[Sarah Spain]

Been wrong the whole time.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Feels like the conversation we had about a pickup artist. Alpha fish. Betta fish.

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Yes. I'm trying to avoid these fish. Truly. I would say keno. Escalating on each other, which is to say ramming their bodies into the other, because that's a thing that these fish.

[Sarah Spain]

Is there another kind of fish that, you know, gets along with a betta that won't ram or eat each other?

[Pablo Torre]

I think it's sort of like a. So I think it's like a. This fish is a real gunslinger.

[Sarah Spain]

Okay.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Solo. Will occasionally ram its own reflection in that.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh.

[Pablo Torre]

In that reflective, beautifully clean glass.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I have a. I actually have a different take, Sarah. I think that part of having a pet, which is good for kids, is understanding that death happens. Like, when our dogs died, it was. Was absolutely devastating, but it was also like, hey, this is a thing that happens. I do think that there was something that felt almost spiritual about it, because it was like, oh, wow, okay. This isn't it. It gave context to life. Life ends. And that. Which is a horrifying thing as a kid, but is also like, instead of growing up sanitized from it or being like, this doesn't happen. It.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It happens.

[Sarah Spain]

Momentum Mori. Remember, we all die, which is the. The whole value of life. Life would mean nothing if we didn't alternately have death. Yeah, I. I agree with that. I'm just trying to save Pablo. What could be?

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, look, I. People have heard, who've heard me talk on various platforms know that my pet experience involved hamsters.

[Sarah Spain]

Right?

[Pablo Torre]

I had hamsters, and I feel like I need to ritually remind America of this fact. The hamsters I had were not just. Just drug addicts. They were cannibals and murderers. Because I had hamsters, too.

[Sarah Spain]

This story is horrifying.

[Pablo Torre]

I go by hamsters. I get a wire cage. I get a plastic spinning wheel, like an exercise wheel, not unlike the one we saw in that video, except vertical attaches to the wired cage. So hamsters, what do they do? They procreate a lot. All of these hamsters are born in the circle. Spinning wheel, Right. That's cool. Oh, a little nest. But you know what else hamsters do, Katie? No. Stolen hamsters eat their young. So what happens? Well, the hamsters begin to eat their babies inside of the plastic translucent Patrick Bateman Ferris wheel of death. And what else happens? The hamsters decapitate their babies. And so you have a spinning wheel that they're still exercising on. So the wheel is still spinning, forming a literal death rattle of hamster baby heads that I watch every day when I wake up and see me. How are my pets doing? The answer, very badly. They're doing very badly.

[Sarah Spain]

This is why you are the way you are.

[Pablo Torre]

It explains so much.

[Sarah Spain]

It explains so much.

[Pablo Torre]

I can never trust or love again.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Did they eat their own babies?

[Sarah Spain]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Wilder]

I once witnessed that never came back.

[Pablo Torre]

Decapitated their own young and ran around.

[Sarah Spain]

A wheel full of baby heads worried about dogs in a New York apartment and the work. And I certainly don't want people to get dogs who don't have, you know, the ability to give them love and time. But also I feel like I'm like the for dogs what people are with babies where they're like trying to convince me to have kids. And like, you'll just never understand love until you have your own. And I'm like, I'm good. But dogs. I'm like, I don't know how people literally live without coming home to this thing that it's like so happy to see you. Wants to spend every second with you. Gives you emotional love and security and snuggles. And like, the snuggles are so good. Yeah. When we come home from vacation and our dogs are like staying with someone else and it's late dog voice. Just opening the door to nothing is so sad. How do you do that?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Yeah, I. I can do more of it if you want.

[Sarah Spain]

Just let me know what the doggy boys.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh, he's a really good girl. Oh, my goodness.

[Sarah Spain]

I once accidentally hit my and recorded myself. I love you. You're the best thing that's ever. I love you so much. Did you know that I and it's just like on and I read it and I was like, oh, my God. Get a hold of your life.

[Pablo Torre]

This is why. I mean, partly why I can't have a dog.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Why you'd have to feel you don't have a dog voice.

[Pablo Torre]

Beyond beyond dog voice. Also just the clear anti fish bigotry that you guys are both exhibiting.

[Charlotte Wilder]

You can't hug a fish.

[Pablo Torre]

Not with that attitude.

[Sarah Spain]

Fish doesn't remember you get an octopus if you want a tank octopus. Remember you will play games with you has feelings. It's probably smarter than all of us. Might be aliens a fish.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It's just escalating quickly.

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, do some research on octopus.

[Charlotte Wilder]

No, I have, but I haven't seen the alien part.

[Sarah Spain]

People, there's this like, thing about how they don't share DNA with almost any other species on earth. So it's like where they come from and who are they?

[Charlotte Wilder]

Oh, sick, right?

[Sarah Spain]

And also, like, don't we think it's a little weird that this animal can just like, change shape and color and texture just anytime they want? Like, nothing like a chameleon. Let me get a little green octopus. Like, makes their entire body look like a rock.

[Pablo Torre]

Or like you can squeeze an octopus through the size of a quarter. Like a whole size.

[Sarah Spain]

There's an octopus that's like, found a way out the like, air conditioning shafts of like a. Of a aquarium to become unscrew a.

[Pablo Torre]

Closed jar lid from the inside.

[Sarah Spain]

Octopuses also have a different personality in each of their tentacles. Like, there's a little brain in each tentacle. So like one. One, like, would be a great lover. By the way, if you think about it, which everyone started talking about after that my octopus friend movie where that guy was definitely 1000%. But if you think about it, which I did after watching that movie, I was like, did he. That octopus, if they each have a different brain in their tentacle, like, you could have a tender lover.

[Pablo Torre]

And guys, I'm busy tonight. I'm having a nine way with this octopus.

[Sarah Spain]

Foreign.

[Pablo Torre]

What do we find out today? Guys, we're at the end of the show. We've talked about more than I imagined and more than I even remember at this moment.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Same. Well, because our brains with cheese and scrambled eggs.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. Our brains are moving slow, as we said. Sarah, what did you find out today?

[Sarah Spain]

I found out so many things. One thing I found out, which I already knew, that Char came from a very specific household. But the combination of Aaron Purr and then also her remembering and reciting important facts she learned in English class continued to build my personal lore of who Char is.

[Pablo Torre]

Agreed.

[Sarah Spain]

It's a lot of boats.

[Pablo Torre]

Wiki Shar is going nuts, right?

[Sarah Spain]

There's a lot of boats and very east coast. But also like the kindness during the Rosa. It's all coming together in a way that's very predictable, but it's just fleshing out the portrait I have of her.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I'm trying to diagram mentally the sentence, the paragraph really that Charlotte had that started as a roast of Dustin Timberlake, then ended up with an apology.

[Sarah Spain]

She said he was ass and immediately was like, I feel awful.

[Pablo Torre]

He's one of the most helpful people on the planet. What am I doing? What am I doing?

[Sarah Spain]

Oh, what are you doing, Charlotte?

[Pablo Torre]

You so silly.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Such a silly ass. I have really nothing to say to that because it's exactly right. That is who that is. That is who I am. I think I found out that similarities between all of the stuff we talked about, the. The. The roasts, the dis tracks, even the aging part, it's all. It's all based on, you know, people's perceptions of things they don't have complete information on. And I think that is fascinating because we. We fill in. In the blanks where we don't know things. And I think that with the. The idea that these things can go beyond what the author intended.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Charlotte Wilder]

It goes to everything. It even applies to the fish because it's like. Because Violet's relationship with this fish will be what she projects onto this fish in a way that's beautiful.

[Pablo Torre]

What I found.

[Charlotte Wilder]

No, she can't hug.

[Pablo Torre]

It is something that I did not even think was possible, which is that Charlotte Wilder could inadvertently mention the name of a Taylor Swift song without intentionally calling out the blank space aspect of this entire conversation. That's right, guys.

[Charlotte Wilder]

He pretends he doesn't know, but he knows he knows.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I know know.

[Charlotte Wilder]

You guys could roast me. I would let you guys roast me.

[Sarah Spain]

It would just be about, like, Dockers and the other day when you wore your. Your amazing princess die outfit and completely pulled it off.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Thank you.

[Sarah Spain]

It would just be you being like a cute millennial.

[Pablo Torre]

Your Mario impression is masterful.

[Charlotte Wilder]

See, I don't believe anything anybody say. Feels like you're reverse roasting me with compliments.

[Sarah Spain]

It's never good when you get a compliment and you're like, I can't. I can't tell if they're. Cuz you don't believe most of the.

[Charlotte Wilder]

Things people say to me that sound nice. I'm like, is it good?

[Sarah Spain]

I take all the compliments. I'm like, I think they meant that in a nice way. Like, the meanest thing I get, I'm like, I think they meant that in a good way.

[Pablo Torre]

Big Leo energy note on this. Yeah, I'm going to interpret this myself. But as for the people who helped me fill these episodes with tiny breadcrumbs to use in wars of Ego, Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Loman, Rachel Miller, Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris to Maniello and Juliet Warren our studio engineering by RG Systems Our post production by NGW Post Our theme song as always, by John Bravo. I gotta go feed this fish. We'll talk to you Tuesday.