Share & Screenwrite & Tell with Domonique Foxworth and David Samson

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Share & Screenwrite & Tell with Domonique Foxworth and David Samson
Date: September 17, 2024
Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: Domonique Foxworth, David Samson

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Brief Overview

This episode is a lively exploration of Domonique Foxworth’s unexpected foray into Hollywood as a staff writer on the new FX series American Sports Story: Aaron Hernandez. Joined by regulars David Samson and Pablo Torre, the trio blends insightful discussion about the art of turning real-world journalism into dramatic television with their trademark banter. The conversation weaves through themes of sports, masculinity, ethics in storytelling, group creativity, and the challenges of humanizing (but not excusing) a complex protagonist.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Domonique's Hollywood Journey

• The Role of "Staff Writer":

  • Foxworth humbly downplays the title, comparing it to being an offensive lineman: “It’s not a glory position, but you do a lot of work that allows the rest of the sausage to be made.” (01:48)
  • Staff writers do essential background work; showrunners and actors are the quarterbacks and wide receivers.

• How He Got the Gig:

  • Expressed a long-standing interest to his agent, met with showrunner Stu Zuckerman, initially hired as a consultant, and later promoted (“I think he assumed because I had another full time job…after the first week…they sent over a contract.” 09:59).
  • He worked his way into the writing room by being fully engaged and contributing meaningfully.

2. The Anatomy of a Writers’ Room

• Collaborative Process:

  • Work begins with “themes” and “character images,” then develops into beat sheets (detailed story outlines for each character), followed by blending these to form episode outlines (10:51–11:59).
  • The craft involves careful consensus, constant rewrites, and balancing multiple creative visions, making analogies to football: “It’s the same thing where one person could mess all of this up.” (08:34)

• Adapting Journalism for Entertainment:

  • The series is a dramatization, not a documentary; the Boston Globe’s reporting (and podcast series) serves as source material, but the focus is on conveying emotional truth, not literal fact (12:23, 13:20).
  • Foxworth grapples with the tension between accuracy and drama, especially as a former NFL player: “We all have the instinct to be accurate… but there are [times you] need to be accurate to the feeling and not accurate to the event. And that was challenging for me…” (12:59)

3. Ethics and Challenges of Fictionalizing Real Events

• Journalistic Integrity vs. Entertainment:

  • Discussion about the risk of fictionalized stories becoming the public’s main perception of historical events (16:00–18:30).
  • Pablo and David question the “harm” in dramatizing real events and whether viewers will distinguish fact from fiction (“Are we warping people’s sense of history by feeding them a fictionalized version of nonfiction?” – Pablo, 19:15).

• Foxworth’s Perspective:

  • He contends that as long as the “core of the story” is intact and the show is clearly labeled as fiction, creative license is justified: “There’s nothing…that I believe violates the core of the story.” (18:30)
  • The true goal is to offer understanding and context, not excuses.

4. Portraying Complex Characters

• Humanizing without Excusing:

  • Foxworth: “We wanted to make a show that humanized Aaron, but doesn’t justify Aaron.” (26:18)
  • The show aims to add dimensions and complexity to all characters, especially Aaron Hernandez and his father.

• Memorable Scenes and Character Choices:

  • Urban Meyer’s introduction scene (eyeliner, surrounded by cheerleaders) is discussed as an artistic condensation of the real-life persona (“It changed, and so, like, that’s not completely accurate, but it was an opportunity for us to say all the things about the character…” – 22:13).
  • The "foot rub" scene is debated for its ambiguous symbolism, with Foxworth pointing out that meaning comes from the viewer: “The truest thing you can say about art is often what you see is what you bring to it.” (24:07)

• Roots of Empathy and the ‘Villain’ Protagonist:

  • How do you emotionally invest viewers when the protagonist did evil acts? Do shows need someone to "root for"? (28:48–29:50)
  • Foxworth argues investment doesn’t have to mean rooting for someone—it can also mean being drawn into the emotional web.

5. Group Chemistry and Banter

• The episode is infused with playful teasing:

  • On Dominique’s Hollywood cred: “You can tell he’s already using this to do another one and he wants to not do another football related one. He’s dressing Hollywood.” – David (24:32)
  • On friendship and support: “I expect butterflies and unicorns from you guys. Like, that’s what friends do.” – Domonique (05:57)

• Closing in-jokes touch on Pablo’s shoes, credit-hogging, and whether Dominique is abandoning his podcasting roots for Hollywood (“I almost responded to that earnestly, then I realized I’m being mocked. So I thank you, friends, for being the friends I’ve always known and loved.” – Domonique, 38:16).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writers’ rooms:
  “I think these are known, this is known things, right.” – Foxworth (02:47)
  “So many hands it touches before it actually becomes what you consume.” – Foxworth (09:00)

• On entertainment vs. journalism:
  “We all have the instinct to be accurate… but there are times you need to be accurate to the feeling and not accurate to the event.” – Foxworth (12:59)

• On character complexity:
  “We wanted to make a show that humanized Aaron, but doesn’t justify Aaron... give context, but not excuse.” – Foxworth (26:18)

• On viewer interpretation:
  “The truest thing you can say about art is often what you see is what you bring to it.” – Foxworth (24:07)

• On team analogies:
  “We’re interior linemen… Of course you make a living. League minimum is a living. It’s not so terrible.” – Foxworth (02:28)

• On friend support:
  “I went into it expecting not to like it ... it had me fast.” – Samson (06:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|---------------------| | 01:48 | Foxworth on being a staff writer, Hollywood’s football analogies | | 09:19 | How Foxworth got the job; moving from consultant to writer | | 10:51 | How episodes and character arcs are built before writing scripts | | 12:59 | Ethical challenges: accuracy to event vs. accuracy to feeling | | 18:30 | Litigation and disclaimers; clear distinction from documentary | | 22:13 | Urban Meyer’s makeup/cheerleader scene, symbolism and creative license | | 24:07 | Foxworth on art and interpretation: what viewers bring to scenes | | 26:18 | Humanizing vs. justifying Aaron Hernandez, complexity of protagonists | | 28:48 | The conundrum of rooting for someone in a dark story | | 33:00 | The “wolf”/fixer character, power/privilege in sports institutions | | 38:44 | Banter about future Hollywood ambitions and loyalty to the show |

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Episode Flow and Tone

• Tone: The conversation is frank, irreverent, often self-deprecating, and rich in mutual ribbing.
• Style: Naturally conversational, jumping from big philosophical questions to granular details of TV writing and back to inside jokes.
• Value for listeners: Even without seeing the show, listeners gain a sharp sense of how TV drama is crafted from journalism, the creative and ethical tensions in that adaptation, and the personal journey of someone (Foxworth) leaping from the NFL and sports journalism to Hollywood writing.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[B]

I just wish you could see his pants. David, you could be a pole vaulter.

[A]

Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings.

[B]

I wanted to catch up and tell you that I value my time preciously. And what I'm most excited about today is to continue my journey of watching the show you wrote. And it wasn't for today's show, but I, I am gonna watch every episode and I can't wait to do it. And I mean that. I don't have to do it.

[C]

I love hearing that. And I also love the way it sounds like the show I wrote. Like I was the only one. I did it all by myself, guys.

[B]

Well, you're the only know, so that counts. And your name is right up there.

[A]

He has a card, a credit alone staff writer Dominique Foxworth in big ass letters.

[B]

That's like a very small staff.

[A]

I was going to say the staff. He's here. We welcome the staff of American Sports Story. Colon, Aaron Hernandez.

[C]

Dominique Foxworth, staff writer is impressive to us outside of Hollywood, not impressive to the people inside Hollywood staff. Right. So a lot of the other writers, I recognize their names, they got producer credits. So it's not that I'm the only writer in the credits. I'm the only writer who has the lowly title of staff writer, which is fine because it was my first time out.

[A]

Make this legible for, for, for us sports fans. What are you, what is a staff writer on a Hollywood production like this in sports or football terms?

[C]

Offensive lineman, I guess, like it's not a glory position, but you do a lot of the work that allows the rest of the sausage to be made. If you assume that like the as like the quarterback because like movies I think is a director's medium. People believe TV is a writer's medium and the showrunner is kind of the, the head of that. And then like actors and stuff, you think of more as like receivers and cornerbacks, more glory positions. We're definitely in the trenches. We out here blocking and protecting.

[A]

Protecting. The more valuable. The more valuable.

[B]

Yeah, they get paid really well if you're good, if you're a good offensive lineman, you can make a living.

[C]

Yeah, we're interior linemen. I mean you can make a living. Of course you make a living. League minimum is a living. It's not so terrible. Not for you maybe. For the rest of us folks, that's a living.

[A]

I just like how Dominique is Already just like casually slipping in these cultural observations about Hollywood movies. Direct, you know, direct.

[C]

I think these are. These are known. This is known things, right.

[A]

For somebody who went away. Who. By the way, I'm so glad the three of us can get together. Obviously, I've missed this. We made fun of each other immediately upon seeing each other.

[C]

That's how men show they love each other. And we're. David's learning.

[B]

I just wish you could see his pants.

[C]

David is.

[B]

You could be a Poe vaulter.

[A]

Oh, that is.

[C]

David is a little jealous.

[A]

A newly graphic comparison given some clips we've seen from the Olympics.

[C]

Well played, David Sampson. That's how you say something without saying it. He's a pro. I think he's just jealous, which is fine.

[A]

I just like that we already got to talking about your within, like, you know, three minutes.

[B]

It's almost impossible to avoid given his choice of outfit today. I mean, and especially given my height. His height. I mean, it's just. It just happens.

[C]

You have. You have certain attributes. You have to lean on the ones you have.

[B]

Back to staff writer.

[A]

Are you talk about a staff. All right, so what you gotta know up top here is that Dominique Foxworth very secretly went Hollywood. He was, in fact, a staff writer on a new FX series, a television series premiering tonight entitled American Sports Story, Aaron Hernandez. And it is a fictionalized depiction of the life and demise of one of the most infamous characters in modern sports, the former New England Patriots star tight end Aaron Hernandez. And for me and David Sampson, who agreed to watch the first two episodes of the show, it was something that raised many, many questions, including about what it was like to work on a show about the NFL while also being a retired NFL player himself who played against these people, who knew some of them that then got depicted in this fictionalized and dramatized way. All of that is to say that there was a lot for us to find out about the process and the ethics and the ego in Hollywood.

[C]

I actually think that my butt is nice. That's why I have on a tight pants.

[A]

I thought David was gonna go butt.

[C]

Yeah. Man's a showman.

[B]

He knows I would have lost the pole vault joke.

[C]

Yeah, this is all about the joke. To be clear.

[B]

Yes, let's be very, very clear.

[C]

This was all about David setting up the joke.

[A]

This is all about just a couple of. Well, in this case, three men expressing intimacy in the only way that men know how. After watching a show that's about apparently a dark, dark story that also raises questions about where Dominique went In order to make this as good as it is.

[C]

It's good. Well, then I made it all by myself.

[B]

Don't. Don't be that way.

[C]

Why not?

[B]

You gotta own it.

[C]

I did.

[B]

You don't think you're get one bad review. You think everything's going to be butterflies and unicorns for this show.

[C]

You mean for this show between. Oh, you mean everybody in the world? I expect butterflies and unicorns from you guys. Like, that's what friends do. Like, you're going to. You're going to lie and say it's great.

[A]

I don't think, David, I don't think that is true.

[C]

That is true. You, on the other hand, I'm.

[A]

I'm. Buddy, I'm here to just give you some butterflies and unicorns.

[B]

I went into it expecting not to like it as I was preparing to do the show today, which is true.

[A]

Because he told me. He was like, what? What.

[B]

What are we doing? Because I was asked to watch several of the episodes, and I did, but I went. I went in absolutely upset about the time allocation, and I had other stuff that I had to do, but we were up to a deadline to record this, and I must tell you. And I said, believe me, this did not end the way I thought. It had me fast. And that's what you have to do with these shows, with these episodic shows that come out two episodes on September 17th, and then one a week until November 2nd.

[A]

Look at that. Look at that. Friendship. It's a friendship of emotion.

[C]

That's the highest honor.

[A]

I love language, truly.

[C]

For Pablo. Pablo loves nothing more than someone doing his show, promoting his show, anything that has to do with his damn show. I appreciate it, David. Thank you very much. And I know from you it's genuine because, yeah, you're a pretty honest guy, which I respect.

[B]

I am. I thought the casting was amazing. I actually thought the intro, the way you hook people when you gotta watch the beginning of episode one, and you'll be like, oh, this is not gonna be your ordinary football story.

[A]

No.

[C]

The interesting thing, or the most interesting thing about. Since my first time in the writers room, it jumped out to me how involved we all are in every aspect of the show, how painstaking the process is from beginning to end. Excuse me. Not every show. Every episode. And then we go off and write our own episode. But it was kind of shocking to me how involved we were in writing all the episodes. And then you bring the episode back and people tweak it, and then eventually the showrunner takes all the episodes and does his final write through and. And make sure everything's okay. And then it goes off to all these other. Just so many hands it touches before it actually becomes what you consume. And it makes it clear to me where there are lots of shows that I've seen promoted where I'm like, no way they can mess this up. This is going to be great. After going through the process, I see how you could mess it up because there's so many different people's visions that you have to have on the same accord. And sometimes having them on different accords makes for a quality product. But I mean, it's very. Football is a great analogy for it because it's the same thing where it's like, well, one person could all of this up.

[A]

Right. Right. A missed block leads to. So to that point, again, the metaphor sort of eating its own tail here. You were the football player in the room. Right. We should be clear that. Well, actually, I don't know exactly how you even got the job that led to you sometimes saying to me, I can't do your show. I gotta be in the writer's room this afternoon after I do, like first take. So, like.

[C]

So like I mentioned, it's always something I wanted to do. I let my agent know there's something I want to do. I've written scripts and all these other things in the past and I got the opportunity. So I met with Stu Zuckerman, the showrunner, and he agreed to have me on as a consultant, which, I mean, I took that as a huge insulter. Yeah. Essentially.

[B]

Was it paid?

[C]

It was a paid consultant, yeah.

[A]

By the way, David, did you just clock how he was like, I've written a couple of scripts before.

[B]

I was.

[C]

I mean, they're not. They're not. They're not good. They haven't been accepted. I didn't submit it as a writing sample because I didn't think it was good enough.

[A]

But the point being that I think, and I resemble this remark, there are lots of certainly journalists, non Hollywood people who dream of one day having the discipline to write any sort of a script. And anyway, or about Lebatard and Stu Guts, but quietly Dominique, in the way that only he can, is just quietly achieving and then revealing it when exactly when there's a big poster about it.

[C]

So he brought me on and I give him a hard time about this because he obviously didn't have any faith in me, which I get it. You only get so much money and you only get so many spots in the writers room. And he Brought me on as a consultant as to not eat up a spot in the. In the writers room. And I think he assumed because I had another full time job that I was gonna be half in or half out. And after the first week of being fully involved in adding some value, they sent over a contract. And then time went on and he was like, maybe you could try an episode, write an episode. And so that's how it built to the point where got some credit.

[B]

Did they tell you where to start and where it ends in the entire story? You say an episode. So I. I figured it was one script that they then break into 10. Are they 10 separate shows that they then put together?

[C]

There's zero scripts. We come in and we first start to talk about the themes that we think are important, talk about the characters and who they are away from the show. Like, build out a full image of the characters. Build out a full image of the themes. We point out specific things that we think is important to have. We go through particular potholes, like the writing room. We don't get to the script until a couple weeks into the writing room where we're building out all this stuff to give ourselves the support. So when we start writing, we don't just go off course. So we build all that out and no one goes off and writes. And then we start doing a beat sheet, and we do beat sheets for each of the characters, which include lots of things that'll never show up on the show, but things that we need to understand to make sure the story is cohesive. And then we start to combine beat sheets for the characters in particular shows, and then that makes for a specific episode. Then someone goes off and writes an episode, and then you get an assignment to write a specific scene. Or before we get to the episodes, people find issues with the beat sheet. You get sent homework, like, all right, over tonight, you need to address this problem. The beat sheet. Are you getting bored or should I?

[A]

No, I actually want to. I want to add a bit of specificity here, because the characters in this show, you know, it's Urban Meyer, it's Tim Tebow, let alone Aaron Hernandez, and the, by the way, high school teammate of Aaron Hernandez, with whom he had a gay relationship. Relationship. All of this, by the way, backed.

[B]

And is that a spoiler alert?

[A]

Well, so it's very early in episode one that you hear it.

[C]

So you double down on the spoiler alert.

[A]

Yes, doubling down. But it's also previously reported, which is materially important, by the Boston Globe and their Spotlight team. So the Show. I want to be clear about this too. This is a dramatization of journalistic work and it was a multi part podcast series by the Boston Globe. And the series is very good as a matter of just like revealing stuff. Like the thing I just spoiled with great clarity. Like it's not that part is not the invention, but how you then take the thing and dramatize it. I'm curious how you approach that like via a beat sheet.

[C]

We all have the instinct to be accurate, which is an important instinct, but there are need to be accurate to the feeling and not accurate to the event. And that, that was challenging for me because I live in the football world and these are football people that I actually know that you played against. Yeah. And so thinking like, man, I owe. And also when we're doing football scenes, a lot of it is like, man, this is really like when I watch sports shows, some of those things feel like I imagine how doctors feel when they watch medical shows where it like eats at me a little bit that somebody messes up and like being able to rid myself of that instinct. Because I recognize that the most important thing for us is to make something entertaining. We don't get to any of the other goals if we don't make it entertaining.

[A]

And there have been docs, again, there have been other docs, there have been podcast series. This is. And by the way, just as another bit of just setup for people who don't know this, this is the series that when our friend Ezra Edelman released his multi part Oscar winning OJ Made in America documentary, there was a parallel dramatized fictionalized series in the American crime story Coaching Tree, as it were. And when I first saw that I was like, I don't wanna watch that at all because I want the real thing. And it was my first window into. But they did it so well that I actually want this on different dramatized terms. And this is that. This is the equivalent of that.

[C]

Absolutely. And that was the. One of the more challenging parts is. And because I am kind of working in journalism and sports journalism, it's like always pulling to be like, oh, but how accurate is that? But it's important to understand that what you're trying to convey is a feeling and an emotion, an understanding. And you can't even documentaries can't be fully accurate because nobody was there. You can't show every little thing. And when you're trying to assign motivation, you don't know what the motivation was. These are things that you can't do. So those are challenges that we had to face and were particularly difficult for me because this was not like, this is the kind of.

[A]

Your job as the consultant was like, help us get the football right.

[C]

That's how it started.

[A]

And then you're like, but let me get this beat into this sheet.

[B]

Yeah, you got to make sure that you're not typecast going forward because you don't want to just be looked at as a consultant on a football show. That's very limited.

[A]

You think Dominique is like, yeah, I'm satisfied being just the football guy.

[B]

You gotta get out there now. I mean, you gotta actually say, man, I had nothing to do. I didn't even know this was a football story. This to me is not a. And. And when you're not a football story.

[A]

And that's why it's a great one.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Because it's not just that by any means.

[B]

It's two things that are occurring to me about being a journalist, which I'm not. It means that we know the truth matters to you. And it must be difficult to work on a show where, you know, by definition you are putting something on the screen that doesn't pass journalistic standards as they used to be or as you still hold them to. And you're saying that you had to sort of bifurcate your brain into allowing the entertainment to take over the journalism, which is a metaphor for really the world we're in now. And so it's interesting to me to.

[A]

See what you're responsible for. Donald Trump.

[C]

That's what he was trying to say.

[A]

This is.

[B]

It's sort of where I'm going. You're now on the other side. And now you see the. In the importance of the entertainment. And I'm wondering whether that's going to impact your journalistic half of your brain. It's hard to do both.

[C]

It's not that hard to do both, I think, because I think what people need to understand is there's a difference. No, no one's holding us out to be top level journalism. And I think that I don't agree with you.

[B]

People are watching the show to learn exactly what happened in the Aaron Hernandez kiss.

[A]

I like that we've gotten to like, the thorny philosophy around, like, what should we make? Given some amount of noble truth, do we make something that is stuck and constrained by that knowability, or do we make something that can become a story for someone else to enjoy? On the terms of entertainment, what David is saying, which I do empathize with, is the idea of there are some people who will not watch, let's say OJ Made in America, the documentary. They'll merely watch the. The Kuba Gooding Jr version and they will think this is what it was like and they will move on with their lives and not really interrogate whether this was the noble truth or not. So I guess there's part of that inevitably.

[C]

So I guess my question for you is because I don't feel the same friction or conflict as you guys feel. Maybe I should. But I think what was difficult for me was just getting to that point of understanding and accepting that I don't believe that it's important to be literally accurate. I think that in this case, maybe, and I'll take it in the farce extreme, that there are people who have never heard about this story and they're only learning about it through this. So what is the hope for teaching someone this story or for allowing someone to know the story, even journalism in general, is to expose people to things that they haven't thought of, allow them to have more information, to get access to people's lives that they haven't experienced, to have to broaden their view. Like all of these high minded things. We do all of those things. And so while there's nothing in there that is. That I think is made up. No, no, no. I think there's plenty of things in there that are made up, but there's nothing in there that I believe violates the core of the story that's being told.

[A]

So two thoughts. One is that, of course the disclaimer to Dominique's description is that there is a literal disclaimer on the show. It is not being presented as a documentary at all. It's very obvious that it's not. So once you sort of disclose this is what we're doing and why, I think you treat it on the terms that have been set. So I don't have a conscience that is sort of like a radar, you know, pinging me. Like, you should be concerned that this.

[B]

We're different though. Go back to when JFK came out, the Oliver Stone movie. I don't know if you guys. I remember, if you remember that it was a very long time ago. There were people who thought that that's exactly how it all went down, that this was Oliver Stone giving us a dramatic reenactment of the circumstances surrounding his assassination.

[A]

I think I get it. I get the idea that there are some people that you're almost intuitively trying to be paternalistic towards because you're like, are we warping people's Sense of history. By feeding them a fictionalized version of nonfiction.

[C]

Obviously we're making entertainment, so they're going to be big, sensationalized moments. But I had, I got so much joy out of sitting in the writer's room and talking about wanting to express something in a tiny way to the people who watch TV this way. We're gonna put this, this little nod here, and some people are gonna see it and some people aren't. But for the people who see it, it reminds me so much of like music, any art, where it's like you listen to a hip hop song 30 times and you don't catch it, but the 35th time you're like, huh? And like, that to me is a sensation that I felt often when we were making this show, when I just felt like being on the inside of that, seeing how you come to that and also recognizing that there were most of those little nods that we put in the show. We did not agree on what they were saying, which is so fun and so cool, to be like, look, it's.

[B]

Like in a book.

[C]

Yeah, that's there. You, you. Yes, you gonna, you're gonna look at this through your prism and it's gonna hit you from the way that you're. You've experienced your life. And that to me was, they're gold.

[A]

I. I love this, this part of the sort of inside the writer studio thing, because the one character that I want to use as a case study in this is Urban Meyer. Yeah. So the first time you meet Urban Meyer, I believe it's the first time in the show he is getting his makeup done. And there's a thing that I'm like, this seems to me fictionalized, but the decision to include it feels spiritually in terms of, again, the spirit of what happened in real life. Both accurate and also incredibly impactful. Set the scene, though, for the basic premise. So the camera is zooming in on Urban Meyer and you see him getting eyeliner applied. Yeah. Again, we're in this already discussion about masculinity. Right. And so already there's that part of it.

[B]

Surrounded by college co ed cheerleaders.

[A]

I love nerds surrounded by these college co ed cheerleaders. Right. As this man who was supposed to be the new father figure for Aaron Hernandez has this makeup applied. And he's also, by the way, and this is where you get into the other part of why the show is effective, is that this dude's voice, the voice of fake Urban Meyer is. It's enough like real Urban Meyer where I'm like, okay, I'm in it now.

[C]

Well, you picked a perfect scene to discuss because it brings together a lot of things that we've already talked about. So that scene was born of us originally. I believe there's a Sports Illustrated cover where Urban Meyer is on there with all of. He had won a national championship and he had a top recruiting class. He's on the COVID with the top recruiting class.

[A]

I was at Sports Illustrated, I believe, when that cover was made.

[C]

Right. So nice flex. That was the beginning of the idea. It changed. And so, like, that's not completely accurate, but it was an opportunity for us to say all the things about the character of Urban Meyer and the show that we wanted to say and to get them into your head, we start the episode, bam, you know, all the things that we want you to know about him.

[B]

And now lascivious prurient only cares about winning, doesn't actually care about the kids, and pretends to be religious. Were those the five takeaways from the. From the first scene?

[C]

We're not. I'm not here to take a quiz. I think it's. It's the. It's the things that you take away from it. If those are things that you took away from it. And. And.

[A]

But even more simplified, the theater of what it means to be a leader of men. And it is so much more like the play acting, as implied by theater. Makeup, eyeliner, a feminine gesture to a very masculine person who is then going to reveal himself to be obviously manipulative.

[B]

I was taken aback by the foot rub scene.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That really got me in a way that I was not prepared for. And what. And I was thinking about the writers room and how that scene made it in because there weren't a lot of words.

[A]

This is. This is his dad now, not Urban Meyer.

[B]

Yes, but the foot rub scene. Can you. Do you remember how that. Are you gonna say. That's another example. Hey, David, take from that what you will. Because I found it to be. Is it homoerotic? I found it to be very telling about religious father telling. I know who you are, and I'm that way, too. I get it. Is it simply. Man, my feet hurt when I played football, which is the only word spoken in the scene. Man, my feet used to hurt after I played, too.

[C]

I would say that we would turn this off and I would tell you the truth, but I don't think I'm in a position to speak to that. We didn't define these things. Like, I think we talked about the themes that we Wanted to incorporate. But the truest thing you can say about art is often what you see is what you bring to it. And I think a lot of us bring.

[A]

Have a take. Dominique, look at this. How do you know a guy is moving on to Hollywood for. From sports, debate, television? He's like, guys, this is about what you bring to it.

[B]

You can tell that he's already using this to do another one and he wants to not do another football related one. He's dressing Hollywood. He's acting Hollywood.

[C]

Hold on.

[A]

But I feel even more Hollywood.

[B]

We won't even be invited when he gets called on stage to win an Oscar or Emmy.

[C]

The. The ego of you guys to think.

[B]

That we would be invited.

[C]

That this show is going to springboard my TV writing and film writing career. The ego.

[A]

But the. The 10. Okay, but back to the ego.

[B]

Awfully slow drinks his water.

[C]

I mean, this show good. I'm doing this as a favor for my man Pablo, because I love him.

[A]

The. The ego of his father. Right? And that scene, there's also obviously a tenderness. It's this. It's this. And this is what the show does well, too. You're not as a character, as per these beat sheets, I presume you're not just one thing. Right. You're a bunch of stuff. And so the dad is both abusive and horrible and is a guy who got a legend among gang bangers for not talking to the cops when detained by the police, which informs Aaron's own sense, it seems, of heroism and again, toughness and masculinity, but also a guy who knows on some level what it was like to be a football player who was not good enough. And here is the kid who's supposed to be all the things that you were not.

[B]

So many parents of players I've had are failed players themselves, and they live the life through their kids. I was not sympathetic toward that character at all.

[A]

Well, hold on, though. I'm not. I'm not saying that you should be sympathetic, although I do think it's worth discussing the complexity, Dominique, of what happens when your protagonist is also not just the guy who ends up that way in prison, but is a villain.

[C]

That was one of the things that we were explicit about. We wanted to make a show that humanized Aaron, but doesn't justify Aaron. And I think that was one of the things that we talked about and we asked ourselves often. We wanted to try to give context, but not excuse. And I think so that for the. You saying that you didn't sympathize with the father. Good. We weren't looking. And you don't sympathize with Aaron. Good. We're not looking for any. Anybody to sympathize with these characters, but just to understand the full breadth, because we all do this where you flatten. You flatten people. You flatten them. You hear about somebody and you just. Like someone does one thing or do a couple things, and that's who they become, and you flatten them. And so our. Our goal, I guess, was to add.

[B]

A few dimensions, but every show needs someone to root for. And so I'm. I'm looking forward to watching the rest of the episodes and seeing. Because so far, I'm not rooting for anyone yet. I. It. So I need to find someone.

[C]

As the guy in here in the sports coat, you are coming off as very conservative and that you don't. I mean, are you enjoying the show?

[B]

Very much so. But.

[C]

And do you have someone to root for?

[B]

No.

[C]

All right.

[B]

But I still have eight episodes left. I don't know. Wait, wait.

[A]

But this. I love this part of the conversation, too, because when you have in Aaron Hernandez someone who had killed someone, you are literally. This is a historical record. Why am I breaking the news?

[B]

Because the majority of people don't know who Aaron is.

[A]

By the way, JFK gets shot.

[B]

You're comparing Aaron Hernandez to jfk? Talk about ego for Dominique.

[A]

There's a bunch of jokes I want to make about hits to the head that I'm just not going to. Just for the record, you just wanted.

[C]

To let everyone know that you're capable.

[A]

I could.

[C]

That you made the connection. It's one of the things that you are proudest of.

[A]

So the question, though, of is it inevitable when your main character is an evil person? And again, a flattened term that feels almost biblical in its pronouncement. Evil. But someone who did really evil. Right. When he's your protagonist, it's almost inevitable as a human watching something to then be tempted to empathize. It's a fascinating trick of human nature of writing. And I think part of what's so difficult about threading the needle of a show like this or any show that's about any movie that's about a bad guy, is that tension of like, am I beginning to root for him?

[B]

Or is there something I can root for? I happen to disagree with you. I think every show has to have that, and I think every show does, in order for it to be successful. It could still be the villain, but there has to be something. And when you're in the writers room, Is there not talk about, hey, let's make sure when we're. When we're fleshing out these characters. Is anyone here likable?

[C]

No, there's no talk of that. And I don't think that it has to be. I think I understand what you're saying, and I think that it doesn't have to be a person. It could be a thing. I think you have to be emotionally invested.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And in order to be emotionally invested does not mean. I think the traditional way to do that and the most consistent and probably reliable way to do it and riskless way to do that is like, we immediately make you identify with someone because then you are rooting for them because you're rooting for yourself. I think it's much more difficult to pull off with Stu, and our writers room are attempting to try to pull off, and it's yet to be known whether we pulled it off or not. But I think that that's more sophisticated and fun and challenging.

[B]

I didn't think there was anything sophisticated about the first scene. I think you did that to pull people in because you know the way viewing habits are. Stu's no fool, and I don't know him. But when you've got episodic television movies, each other would not.

[C]

You would.

[B]

Would. Do you agree that you got to get someone fast? Yeah, you. And. And that. And I promise you, when you watch this show, you're in from the beginning. It's not a slow. You know how some people read books and, like, man, the first 100 pages, I could barely get through. Just do it. It'll be worth your while. Those sort of days are coming to an end.

[C]

Pages. You read 100 pages. I count that as a full book. You read a book.

[B]

But this show gets.

[C]

It's interesting that. It's interesting that you're saying that we haven't done that, but we did grab you. Like, we have not.

[B]

No, I'm saying you did do it. I'm saying that.

[C]

But we haven't established someone for you to root for.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

But we still.

[B]

So, yeah, you got me in, but I don't have anyone to root for yet, and it may end with me.

[A]

Not rooting for anyone as the villain of Metal Arc media. David, it is fitting that you have this conundrum.

[B]

I believe that I'm not alone here, but again, I often think that I'm not alone, and it turns out I am.

[A]

No, look, but I think ethically and again, maybe it's not even ethical. The. The. The the conversation that we should have about, like, what's the harm of making your main character a villain who does bad things that you then begin to understand because he is subject to all. And this is fair and true and reported by the Boston Globe as well. He is the product of a laundry list of beats, literal and figurative. He is abused by his dad. He is physically damaged neurologically by organized football, the institution. Right.

[B]

Every part of it. It's very strange what you're doing.

[A]

The point.

[C]

The point undercut me, was my show to fail because he's a little jealous.

[A]

The point of it, if. I promise you, if you watch this show and you don't have a sense of how Aaron Hernandez is, of course responsible for his actions, but also the product of a multivariate equation in which all of these things make him up, then you're not listening closely enough. Right. This is not as simple as good and bad.

[C]

I mean, nothing ever is. And I think, to back to the point that you were making, I took a class about, like, screenwriting, and I read a couple books. No, I mean, it was online class.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, but how many hours did you get credit?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you print out a diploma?

[C]

No, I didn't do it.

[B]

Do you have a master's in screenwriting?

[C]

No, it was. It was a class. And good for you. I've read a couple books on it, and I bring that up to say that there are specific things that you're talking about that all these books and all these classes taught me. Never came up in the writing room. Never came up in the writing room. I was so ready to use my jargon and talk about how you have a sense for story arc and you have a sense for these things that, you know you're trying to hit, but no one ever talks about them. And it's almost like it feels so. To your point, we would never be like, but who are they going to root for?

[A]

There's another character that's just fun for me where I was like, is this dramatized? And it's the way that Urban Meyer in Florida managed to very effectively make things legally go away. There's a fight. Aaron Hernandez is involved. Tim Tebow. It's very funny. Right. Like, you see. And again, I don't know if it happened this way specifically, but you smash cut to Aaron Hernandez is outside on the sidewalk. There are cop cars. Tim Tebow is talking to the cops because it's perfect that he would be that guy. And then there is this character who shows up who's named Huntley. Johnson, the wolf. Exactly. The fixer. The wolf of Gainesville. And suddenly you're in a dark paneled wood room, and there is Huntley Johnson and Aaron Hernandez. And Aaron Hernandez is learning how all of these problems can be made to disappear. And then I listened to the Boston Glow podcast series, and I was like, hunley Johnson was a real.

[B]

I got in major trouble on the LeBatard show when I told people that we have, as part of teams that you have that you've got the wolf, you've got people in the legal community, you've got people on the police force, you've got people. Retired police. You've got a lot of things going on to make things go away. And I remember, well, during this episode on Dan's show, that Dan was like, hey, you really struck a nerve with people because they weren't aware of that abusive power that professional sports is. And I said, really? No. But, like, do you think people are gonna watch, say, wow, the Florida players got treated differently in Gainesville, maybe?

[C]

No, I doubt it. I think people expect that. And, yeah, that. That was a real person. We weren't there. But, I mean, those are legitimate events. And I appreciate you keep bringing up these characters in. We're in the early stages. We get even more characters going forward. You haven't made it to. Well, I will not also spoil, but there are some. There are some fun characters. I mean, we still got all the NFL stuff, right.

[A]

We haven't even gotten to New England yet.

[B]

We have till November 2nd.

[A]

Well played.

[B]

Got a lot of time.

[A]

How do you know the he can read?

[B]

I keep track of what I'm watching episodically on my phone, so I know which day the shows come out so I can make sure to watch them. How else would you remember?

[A]

I do.

[B]

I show it to you right now.

[A]

I think I don't believe you. That's the reaction we're having is of disbelief. It's of. Of course you do.

[C]

I forget how much I love you, man. I just forget sometimes.

[A]

David. When David says that he liked this and watched it and looks forward to watching more of it, I do want to remind our audience that David Sampson is insatiable when it comes to trying things and either liking them or disliking them strongly and bluntly, but nonetheless having such a sample that his opinion is, I think, uniquely born of just so many hours.

[B]

Well, I texted Dominique on this, actually, before we got here today, and I wanted him to know that, A, I was gonna watch it. B, I was gonna be honest with my assessment of it. And when I say that it got me. I was gonna. I didn't think you wanted me here just to kiss his ass. Because you're doing that and spoiling, and that's the role you're playing.

[A]

It's a lot of ass. It's.

[B]

It's no defense. Very confined, actually, right now.

[C]

It sits up nice and high, though. Is the point strong.

[A]

That's right. Muscular kissing up in a, again, quite literal sense.

[B]

I just was fascinated. I had no idea. I have another epiphany for you. I had no idea, A, this was coming out, B, that you were involved. Until I was asked to participate in this, I was not aware of it. And that's what made it even more interesting to me. Because you knew when we were together doing shows, you knew you were doing this or that it was coming out. It never came up, never mentioned. And I totally love that you didn't flex it, because Pablo, you know, that would have been. He would have had a sign over his computer.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, we have different beat sheets.

[B]

Yes, you do.

[A]

My traumas are different traumas.

[B]

You just want attention so badly, Pablo.

[A]

Okay, why? What is this? What show are we doing now?

[C]

We're doing the show that we do. Our show.

[B]

Exactly. This is not you, your show.

[C]

This is why people are here. They. They came. We're forcing them to listen to. To listen us talk about the show that I was a writer on. But they're really here to enjoy the interaction of the three of us reunited.

[A]

I do really miss this.

[C]

Yeah, it was good.

[B]

We should do it more.

[A]

Yeah. We were in Miami just being substitute teachers and realized that.

[B]

Yeah, you say that so much. It offends me, actually. Well, I don't like that characterization.

[A]

Substitute teachers.

[C]

I didn't like it either.

[B]

He talks about. Yeah, who doesn't like when they roll in the vcr? As though anyone could go show some Jurassic Park.

[A]

Kids love it. No, get the people going.

[B]

People take advantage of. Of substitute teachers, actually. They feel they don't have to behave. They feel they don't have to pay attention. They feel like they don't learn anything.

[A]

Show me the li. So far we guest.

[C]

Guest stars, guest hosts. I don't know. We are.

[B]

He got us. He got us. Show me the lie. Maybe there is none.

[A]

I do think that Dominique's rise in Hollywood does jeopardize the delicate ecosystem.

[B]

Well, I'm clearly worried about his ability to donate his time to shows like yours and mine going forward. Yeah, he's got his own title card.

[C]

Yeah, that's now now. I almost responded to that earnestly. Then I realized I'm being mocked. So I thank you friends, for being the friends that I've always known and loved.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Pablo's been holding a football this whole time.

[A]

I know.

[C]

Like he knows what to do.

[B]

You have a plan for now to November football, You and your agent. Because this is one of the things when things are released one week at a time, especially leading up to what I think will be special in the next three weeks, which we don't. I'm not going to spoil, is that you should be taking the opportunity. You should be out there.

[A]

Dominique wrote an episode.

[C]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

Episode five.

[C]

I did.

[B]

Credit for the big salad. Such a Pablo move. You had no idea. You had no idea.

[A]

You told me in the kitchen and I was like, let me see this Wikipedia page.

[C]

Oh, you didn't know that I wrote an episode?

[A]

Of course I remember that you had told me many moons ago. But you know, in my exhaustive research, I did not get to.

[B]

This is a show about you finding stuff out, yet your level of inquiry goes like an inch deep.

[A]

That's not true. And there are more jokes that I can make that I will not. At the end of every episode of Habitori finds out a show about us finding out stuff. We say what it is we found out today. David, would you like to go first?

[B]

I found out what a beat sheet is. I was not aware of that. Thank you.

[C]

You're welcome. I guess I found out that Pablo doesn't respect himself enough to wear decent shoes.

[A]

That's not even part of the continuity.

[C]

You said today.

[A]

You didn't say I didn't show my shows on the show.

[C]

I know I did. I don't care. I think it's important that people know very normal shoes.

[A]

Find a new slide.

[B]

Can we do another take of that, please?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because we want to use something that you've actually.

[A]

Okay. What I found out today is that David Sampson needs to stop trying to host Pablo Torre finds out we were doing something. We were doing our three man weave.

[C]

Oh, gosh. And he did what he does in the weave.

[A]

Yep. God, I love this.

[C]

Drops the ball and fumbles around and then we do this thing. Ah, when are we going to Miami again?

[A]

Guys, can we just put David Sampson's name as a big credit at the last part of the show? Co host David Sampson. No one else do that. You good?

[B]

Okay, covered.

[A]

This has been Pablo Torre finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.